========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:44:53 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Tom, Barry, David, Appropriation is the basic Medieval mode of writing, either, as Barry says, citation being the prevalent trope of writing or as outright appropriation. Chaucer is the great appropriator in English literature. Troylus and Cresyda is for all purposes, with some changes, of Boccaccio's Philostrato, without Chaucer ackknowledging it as such. This does not mean that he was being dishonest or propagating a hoax, simply that that was a natural Medieval writing process. A number of Chaucer's earlier works (the titles escape me now) start with a dream passage, introducing or framing the narrative which will follow. This was a common Medieval trope. A number of times, Chaucer lifts his dream passages from French examples. To understand the process better, it might be helpful to look at Medieval Cathedrals, masterpieces with no named architects. The whole construct is seen as a communal activity, something beyond the individual or authorship. The same ethos, an ethos of poetics, applies to writing also. Ruskin understood this. I think it is the source of his modernity. When David, Kent Johnson, myself and a few others, in various ways, attack the notion of originality or authorship, elevating the editor, the translator, the anthologist, the creator of hoaxes, the heteronymous author, the hypertext to a central position, replacing these tropes for the figure of the "poet," they are actually trying to go back to the same Medieval view of authorship and creation. Recently, Jerome Rothenberg and I had a conversation where we discussed the concept of the anthology being the ideal form of a sacred text. That discusion also, I believe, were along the same lines. Though in the 17th century the idea of the individual author was already present, one can see in certain authors the earlier prominence of citation still in full swing. One can cite three works along these lines where appropriations are integral to the text: Burton's *The Anatomy of Melancholy *, Browne's "Urn Buryals," Montaigne's *Essays*. If I remember correctly, Swift's *The Tale of the Tub* parodies the same style of appropriation in its person; nevertheless, in this parody the earlier style is still in full force. In English Literature, I think Johnson and Pope give a "temporarily fatal blow" to the process mocking its rube-like primitiveness (even Shakespeare could not escape the opprobrium) and elevating originality to a poetic ideal. Ciao, Murat On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:00 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > hi all, > > catherine daly and mark weiss were looking for some clarification on > my question regarding a possible genealogy or history of appropriative > writing. first off, and thanks to those who provided 20th-century > examples but yes i'm really looking for precedents prior to dada and > high modernism. > > as far as defining terms, i really do have in mind mostly what mark > says, substantive if not wholesale incorporation of an other('s) text, > however identified or not, into one's own. so i'm less interested in, > say, the rhapsode as song-stitcher of a people's tales; or as dave > chirot points to among his many great suggestions, the renaissance > notion of imitation or authority through citation of others rather > than through originality; or citation as example, through which, as > dave points out, many pre-socratic, sapphic etc fragments found their > sole survival; or translation, which still in most cases wants to > preserve and remain faithful to the original author's intent... > > and so as to catherine's "appropriation how/why," precisely. i'm > looking to a genealogy of appropriative poetics in part to > differentiate poets' means, intents, motives etc for doing so in the > first place. so for example, 1) tzara says make a dada poem by tearing > up a newspaper and arranging the strips you've pulled from a hat; 2) > pound, reznikoff, rukeyser pull documents from the historical and > legal records to include in their poems; 3) cage reads thru joyce, > thoreau, etc and creates mesostics from their words. clearly in each > case the authors have different motivations for these appropriative > acts and i'd like to try to map out the field, including precedents > for this kind of activity. > > additional suggestions and discussion welcome... > > thanks, > tom orange > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:06:37 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <367730.16822.qm@web65102.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Barry: many thanks for this book suggestion-- i've read other texts which desribed through time the incredible amassing of Talmudic commentaries, and commentaries upon thse and more in turn upon those-- and as you write, yes, it becomes an endless many authored series of words reaching back to one intial word pehrps, or very small phrase-- heidegger has his own manner of examining "etymologies" in this way in his efforts to ask "waht is called thinking?-" and other questions-- and today one finds these very peculair versions of the Taoist, Talmudic, old Latin Christain commentaries and the great and ongoing ones in Islam and Buddhism, throughout the world-- which are the ministers one finds on the tv who explain the roots of words in such as a way that it slants further the already really "new versions" of the Bible-- which are written in an American english i don't recongize but perhaps that indicates it is the Word of God, who knows-- in music one finds this very much--in Jazz and soul music, blues for example there are so many versions and allusions to one song or a few bars of a very well knwon song--and these build in delta build ups--horizonatally and vertically--of sound and allusions to previous versions-- sometimes one in particualr, sometimes a number of them--so as one listens one hards the sounds and voices of a great many others--al of them quoted and alluded to, hinted at, evoked-- and then given a new feeling, tone, vividness--shiftings in the emotionswhich make appear whole new configurations of meaning than one had found in that song before-- and in the theater one finds this also--and some forms of poetry recitals, where a ceratin pewrson's style is being alluded to or copied, mimiced, as triobute, homage or satire-or a put down or simply a gesture of ear whacking contempt! there is the other sign of the coin so to speak in which apporopriation can takeon an aspect of the "stealing of souls" as in the fear of havingone's photo taken-- or an old Mowhak in-law of mine who never spoke on the telphone becuase--itis not speaking with people who are "present"-- in which case one cannot trust them, these voices-- even though they may sound exaclty like so and so how doesone know it is them-- or even thatitis aliving voice and notone from thelandof the dead (which mary baker eddy had an interst in as witness her having aphone you can try calling her on in her vault in mt auburn cemetery in cambridge, ma) the question one might ask of appropriation after a ceratin point is how much of it is sued to simply make the previous users of an image or term or poem etc simply vanish into a palimpssest become graveyard-- so that quoattion may become a form of erasure-- or turn into simply an ever more distanced set of terms which become eventually abstractions, without any particualr meaning letin them at all--and so exist as decorative designs on the walls around a villa-- which no one reads though they actaully "know" them-- in that way what wasonce a visible sign becomes a covert form of suggestion" perhaps, concealed inside a formal decorative desing-- or simply vecomes so commonplace that it turns into being a stok in trade of jokes another way of using appropriated materials of course is to say--they are not my words which say these things--i simply am using thesematerials as part of aproject-- so an approproiator--may mmanage to use this method to absolve of respsoanbality their actions when it comes to something which according to the emily post school of appropriation it is not appropriate to approprioate alsothe concepts of how much does one reveal of onself and how much does one conceal by the use of approrpriation-- do those used actually give or hide any indicationsof who itis that has chosen them and what may or may not be their motives? also , another weay to give credence to things that are "faked" for example, is to begin "quoting them"--so that the quotes get picked up and are quoted and cited elsehwere andon into a chain of citations establishing as having a "real, concrete existence" things whih are not at all real but simply those things like joe the plumber that are "plants"-- in this manner one may play games with those who appriate by laying traps ahead of time for them! a kind of ruins in revrse set up in whcih what comes after this opening move which is a pitfall of destruction--simply falls into the trap, rather than adding on to the endless seriesof supllements-- i have to stop before getting too dizzy and go catch abus! On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Barry Schwabsky < b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > Thanks, as usual, for all that, David. > JJust one thing to add: It is well worth readiing "The Dream of the Poem," > Peter Cole's great anthology of Medieval Hebrew poetry....If you read the > extensive annotations along with the poems you will see that, however > original no matter what the ostensible subject, each one is basically a web > of allusions to the Bible. It becomes clear that for them, the ultimate > poetic trope was the citation. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Chirot > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Thursday, 30 October, 2008 5:23:10 PM > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > > Since a great deal of the work of the Pre-Socratics and ancient Greek poets > (Sappho, for example--and many others--I'm only writing of the West, though > this has occurred in Taoist texts also in China, poetry and otherwise)--a > great deal of work has come down as being included in the works of > others--who may or not make note or sly allusion that these are buried > lines > attributed to so and so--and yet--being appropriated thus reflect as well > on > the one preserving them--so that appropriation becomes a badge of knowledge > and taste, a sign of one's own high standing in the ascending rungs the > stars must take on their "stairway to heaven"-- > that is--the greater the name, or--the more obscure--that one > appriopriates--the more of aninsider cult one--or the more popularyy > recognized--all these sources from which appropriations are made become, as > a "value" as a "name brand," also part of the "value of appropriation as a > method" when it is done in this manner-- > and so in turn confer upon the "knowing and alert reader" the sense also of > ebing one of these stars ascending ther stairway and likewise "in with the > in crowd"-- > but this is only one aspect of appropriation's wild and colorful history-- > > in the period of roughly 1590-1700, in the genre, immensely popular at the > time--of "travel literature," there was massive plagiarism going on and in > immensely imaginative ways, with a borrowing here, a stolen bit there and > everywhere a stitch in time saves nine and voila one has produced yet a new > book of wonders, authored by a pseudonym-- > in turn translated by the same person under a different name into the > "french"--so that it there appears as the work of yet another > pseudonym--and > then is translated back into English by again the same person, with the > "translation" appearing under yet a new name-- > > (this method is used today by various agencies planting disinformation, > among them MEMRI, which furnishes almost the Middle Eastern news for the > entire mainstream American media--) > > (these things all happened--Defoe was one of the great practitioners, and > Sterne also was a merry inventor of the voyages to the various then "New" > worlds as well as ones among the "old"--) > > the greatest contemporary practitioner of creating works from found > materials is Paul Metcalf, great grandson of Herman Melville--Paul's > magnificent sound poem APALACHE is a full book--history of that area of the > proto-United States--constructed entirely of texts he put togetehr-- > not a word of his own appears in the text-- > many of his other works are built using the same principal, although in > each > a particular set of themes or images is used to make connections which > bring > togetehr "unrelated" events, histories, persons to create revelatory > histories, geographies and physiognomies--for example, I-57--written to > celebrate his 57th year--is an account of a journey up route I-57--which > uses texts from nervous system ailments, migraines and others to make > another form of mapping simultaneous with that "found on the AAA maps"-- > > BOTH--combines the lives of John Wilkes Booth and Poe--and in Genoa, the > diaries of Columbus and works of Melville occupy the mind of a narrator > during an evening as he cares for his children and travels also in time > through the adventures of his criminal brother's life-- > > I think Metcalf of any writer i have so far found is the greatest at making > "connections" among found materials, quantum leaps that are a pure poetry > in action--and using these juxtapositions of words and phrases to bring > forth new arrangements of images, sounds, ideas that are astonishing, for > again, their uncanny effect-- > things which seem at once familiar and yet strangely new, unknown--as > though > seen for a first time and at the same time with a sense of eerie deja vu-- > and as well plunging one, like his ancestor, into depths which are found to > be teeming among the materials of the existent world of elements and > objects, forces and actions, of something Other-- > Paul cited a number of times the music of Charles Ives as an example--the > use of bits and pieces of music from every sphere of hearing--arranged into > a completely different yet at the same time uncannily familiar "picture" in > sound-- > > Clark Coolidge wrote a very amazing work of appropriation i think > influenced > by Metcalf (as was a lot of Susan Howe's earlier work)--Smithson > Depositions--which makes use of texts by Kerouac, WCW, Robert Smithson, > Godard, geology texts, etc--it's an extraordinary and beautiful work-- > > the travel literature texts--a number of them are yet in print--even though > chunks of them are inventions as well as appropriations--sewn togetehr by a > traveller who never left a cosy fire side desk-- > Defoe wrote a book on Madagascar for example that was still used seriously > by travellers for over a hundred fifty years after Defoe had entirely > imagined it and used also the bits and pieces his sharp eye had come across > in the flood ties of verbiage washing ashore in England and the other > countries of Europe during the mad rushing years to gobble up the hew > world-- > > out of this literature was born eventually the first forms of the modern > novel of "realism"--such as Defoe's own!--to be sure-- > > earlier, as has been noted, Shakespeare was using huge chunks of work that > came ashore from Italy and Spain--and there were cross pollinations of > texts > through the late Middle Ages, into the Renaissance and Elizabethan > periods--often one may find transpositions (translations of another form, > to > put it in a poetic manner--)-- > > transpositions of whole works, with only the names of characters and > settings changed to conform the local area and ruler's policies and the > scandals of local VIPs-- > > what is now the United States of course furnished an incredible breeding > ground for texts of all sorts which in turn produced texts from amongst > themselves--with cross breedings, transpositions, faked translations, > plagiarisms, al mixed with here and there some actual observations of an > actual traveler--not to mention the accounts being included given by > Indians > who were simply "giving the wrong directions" to gullible explorers-- > > if one examines the history of the survival of much of Sappho's writing, it > is really long history of it's been erased (by burnings primarily) as well > as its being 'included in" the works of others--a kind of incredible hood > ornament added to make the vehicle of the moment have more class so to > speak--and at the same time the efforts made to have it "melt" into the > surfaces of the appropriators' works-- > > of course the greatest appropriator in a sense, the one who turns this > method on its head entirely--is Borges' Pierre Menard--who manages the > writing, word for word, of two Chapters and part of a third, of Don > Quixote, > and which the commentator and historian of Menard's works demonstrates the > superiority of to the originals by Cervantes-- > > however, it may be argued, Menard is not setting out to appropriate > Cervantes, but to write Cervantes-- > > write not as Cervantes but write as Pierre Menard writing Cervantes-- > > The first great critic in American literary history is Edgar Allan Poe, for > whom the questions of plagiarism and appropriation were an obsession. Since > Poe himself often filched a bit here and a tidbit there, as well as > inventing "classical authors and their quotations,"--one may see the common > psychological effect of projection at work--accusing others of what one > sees > and fears to see and know of in oneself-- > > Poe was also the past master of hoaxes--furthering confusing the issues > when > it came to his own works, prompting him to insist al the more loudly and > wildly on the crimes of others against the rigors he insisted upon as being > necessary for a nascent literature to be taken seriously as having, indeed, > its own existence at at all, and one separate from that of the English > language-- > > (this is why he's in WC W's In the American Grain--for his criticism--the > original "Tommyhawk Man") > > appropriation of course, is also used in detournement, to turn an image > against itself by the addition of a caption--which can be accomplished also > in lines of poems-- > and appropriation simply as a montage or collage--the one building to an > ideological statement, the other to a satire perhaps-- > > or, as in some examples from the visual arts (Sherry Levine, Cindy Sherman, > et alia--) one may simply take a photo of a photo or reconstruct a photo > and > take a photo of that--and so be making a commentary on the original photo > itself being an example of an image within a prior system which constructed > it-- > > i think an interesting area is that in which it becomes difficult to > discern > the distinctions between mimicry and appropriation-- > > at a certain level, one might say that all writing is a form of > appropriation, for in each word that one writes, each writer has in them a > sense of their own from which source they are appropriating it in th sense > of which first time hearing or seeing of that word they have carried with > them in memory-- > > so that with each word in each writer may be living millions of teeming > appropriations--or fewer, depending on the writer-- > > in another way, so many words are already constructed as things made to be > appropriated, carried about daily as the basic materials "to get by in this > world"--that without anyone realizing it, they are just things "everyone > has > on them"-- > > such is the meaning of "stock phrases" for example or "cliches" and > "nostrums"--al this baggage one totes about that one pulls out in an > emergency or in a daydream half interrupted--and dishes out blandly-- > > think on how many things in a day one might write or say really that are > just appropriations more or less word for word of something heard or said > just a bit earlier in the day-- > and one produces them calmly, casually, quite offhand, mind you--as though > they are indeed the completely new and original thoughts of one's own-- > > probably a good deal more than anyone realizes throughout the course of the > day is just a continual appropriation of texts from earlier in the day > culled from here and there, screen, CD, video, news flash, email, book, > overheard conversation, direct conversation--and so and on--al this immense > flood of words and phrases with which one is quickly and nimbly making > those > quick hand outs of platitudes that smooth the operations of negotiating > one's passage through the language infested day-- > > so itis that one begins to wonder--my God!--have i said or thought one > original thing all day! > or but been just an appropriatin' fool! > skipping along happily flinging out the posies of phrases picked up on the > lawns of others-- > > ah yes--and to ask of Emily Post-- > my dear, when is it appropriate > to appropriate? > > for are not disquisitions on etiquette as formally of interest as though of > ethics says a little mouse, who hopes someday to be the Oscar Wilde of the > mouse holes in Emily's decaying--genteely, to be sure, old heap-- > > to appopriate refuse, the thrown out, is another tradition--(to which i > belong)--the "utility of the useless"--the use of the mud for gold a la > Baudelaire--alchemies of alleyways--Rimbaud's famous catalog of junk he > found of use--and Schwitters picking up used bus tickets in the muddy > desparing streets-- > > an appropriation of what no one wants!-- > because in good part, "necessity is the motherfucker of invention"-- > > this is the appropriation method or style at the other end of the spectrum > form that which makes use of the highest of vlue materials in order to > refelct well on the caliber of the poet doing the appropriating-- > > as one may see, there reamins really vast work to be done with the > questions > involved with appropriation, in the realms simply of what it means in terms > of taste, for example--and of the ettiquette of the approproiate use of > appropriation--and al the hosts of meanings that may be wrung from each > different aspect and its contexts-- > > its placements within the streams and flows of time-- > > for each appropriation is it not, creates a new history for the words whcih > it appropriates, reframes them, regalvanizes them--that is, if the > appropriator is worth their salt-! > > as some indeed simply fall falt--but when it is working the old > approrpriation mill is helping to keep alive the endless quantum > possiblitlies of what are the uncertainty principle of words, letters, > signs-- > > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Tom Orange wrote: > > > dear listers, > > > > i feel i'm having a mental block and am eager for the remedy of your > > collective wisdom: i am looking for precedents in the history of > > poetry for appropriations of other texts into one's own poems, and yet > > nothing comes immediately into my view prior to tzara's dadaist poem > > and the high modernist use of documentary materials (pound, williams, > > reznikoff, rukeyser). > > > > any thoughts on the history or genealogy of appropriative poetics > > greatly appreciated. > > > > sincerely, > > tom orange > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:41:31 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Joseph Mosconi Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I don't know if anyone has mentioned Lautreamont yet; his strategies are discussed some in this paper by Raphael Rubinstein on Ubuweb: http://www.ubu.com/papers/rubinstein.html I seem to recall some passages of Wilde's The Picture of Dorian Gray being copied wholesale from furniture and plant catalogs. On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Tom Orange wrote: > hi all, > > catherine daly and mark weiss were looking for some clarification on > my question regarding a possible genealogy or history of appropriative > writing. first off, and thanks to those who provided 20th-century > examples but yes i'm really looking for precedents prior to dada and > high modernism. > > as far as defining terms, i really do have in mind mostly what mark > says, substantive if not wholesale incorporation of an other('s) text, > however identified or not, into one's own. so i'm less interested in, > say, the rhapsode as song-stitcher of a people's tales; or as dave > chirot points to among his many great suggestions, the renaissance > notion of imitation or authority through citation of others rather > than through originality; or citation as example, through which, as > dave points out, many pre-socratic, sapphic etc fragments found their > sole survival; or translation, which still in most cases wants to > preserve and remain faithful to the original author's intent... > > and so as to catherine's "appropriation how/why," precisely. i'm > looking to a genealogy of appropriative poetics in part to > differentiate poets' means, intents, motives etc for doing so in the > first place. so for example, 1) tzara says make a dada poem by tearing > up a newspaper and arranging the strips you've pulled from a hat; 2) > pound, reznikoff, rukeyser pull documents from the historical and > legal records to include in their poems; 3) cage reads thru joyce, > thoreau, etc and creates mesostics from their words. clearly in each > case the authors have different motivations for these appropriative > acts and i'd like to try to map out the field, including precedents > for this kind of activity. > > additional suggestions and discussion welcome... > > thanks, > tom orange > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- "He was a linguist, and therefore he had pushed the bounds of obstinacy well beyond anything that is conceivable to other men." ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:51:18 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kate Soto Subject: Poetry events at the University of Chicago next week Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable History and Forms of Lyric Series Gabriel Levin: The Tailor=92s Dummy November 5, 4:30 PM Cobb 203 5811 S. Ellis Ave Reception to follow. This lecture will meditate on the practice of literary translation. =20 Levin will read from a selection of journal entries he made in 2007. =20 At the time, the improvisatory nature of jottings in a journal served =20= as a catalyst for working through the inherent slipperiness and =20 contradictions of the craft. Entries include reflections on childhood =20= and the initial impulse to translate his surroundings and move on =20 associatively into the realm of dreams and Greek drama (Alcestis), his =20= efforts to find metaphorical equivalences for the translation of=97for =20= the most part=97Hebrew poetry. Some entries bounce off the writings of =20= others, such as Rosenzweig, Frost, Borges, Middleton, and Paterson, =20 while others deal with poems he happened to be working on at the time. =20= Levin will provide a handout of translations from the work of two such =20= Hebrew poets: one modern, Avot Yeshurun (1904-1992), and the other =20 medieval, Yehuda Halevi (circa 1075-1141). In the latter case we will =20= be looking at two versions of the same poem, returning to a =20 translation he=92d previously abandoned in a renewed attempt to render =20= the poem into English. The Poem Present Reading and Lecture Series Geraldine Monk and Alan Halsey Reading from their work. November 6, 4:30 PM Rosenwald 405 1101 E. 58th St. Reception to follow. Poetics Lecture: The Last Wounded Animal in the Wood. November 7, 1:00 PM Harper 148 1116 East 59th St. Reception to follow. Drawing on their extensive experience with collaboration, the poets =20 will discuss its various forms, how it affects the text and the =20 occasional problems and pitfalls, all with examples and amusing =20 anecdotes. Geraldine Monk was born in the county of Lancashire, in the northwest =20= of England in 1952. Since the 1970s her poetry has appeared in =20 numerous anthologies and magazines. Her major volumes of poetry =20 include Interregnum (Creation Books 1995), Noctivagations (2001), and =20= Escafeld Hangings (2005), both published by West House Books. Her =20 Selected Poems was published by Salt Publishing in 2003. A collection =20= of essays on her poetry, The Salt Companion to Geraldine Monk, edited =20= by Scott Thurston, appeared in 2007. Alan Halsey was born in London in 1949. He ran the Poetry Bookshop in =20= Hay-on-Wye 1979-96. Since 1997 he has lived in Sheffield, continuing =20 to work as a specialist bookseller and editor of West House Books. His =20= own books include The Text of Shelley=92s Death (Five Seasons, 1995), =20= Marginalien, a collection of poems, prose texts & graphics (Five =20 Seasons 2005), and Not Everything Remotely: Selected Poems 1978-2005 =20 (Salt 2006). His several collaborations include Fit to Print with =20 Karen Mac Cormack (Coach House 1998) and Days of =9149 with Gavin =20 Selerie (West House 1999). His text-graphic work Memory Screen was =20 most shown at the Bury Text Festival 2005 and his graphic work =20 includes a collaboration with Steve McCaffery, Paradigm of the =20 Tinctures (Granary 2007). If you need assistance in order to participate in this event, please =20 contact 773/834-8524. All events are free and open to the public. Visit =20 poempresent.uchicago.edu for more information about the program and an =20= archive of videos. Sponsored by the Program in Poetry and Poetics, poetics.uchicago.edu. Kate Soto Coordinator The Committee on Creative Writing The Program in Poetry and Poetics University of Chicago Walker Museum 411 // 773.834.8524 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:09:02 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "Reality Too" October Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends and Colleagues: Here is the October edition of "Reality Too": http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/blog/October.htm Mirror site: http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/weishaus/Blog/October.htm Introduction: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/blog/intro.htm Designed for MS Explorer; Text Size: Medium; 1024X768 screen resolution. -Joel =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:19:35 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <18f206a20810302122q7859b625n1d84596054f352b4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This may be a minor point, but I feel that there's some serious anachronism going on in this discussion. Borrowings and stealings (but rarely beggings) need a name now because the act is deemed to stand apart from our more common cultural image of the artistic act. We call this appropriation now because of our concepts of ownership as applied to words and ideas, along with the assumption that, by default, one does not have permission to take over that ownership. Surely we can't call Shakespeare appropriative in this way, let alone authors closer to the oral tradition. Elizabeth Kate Switaj www.elizabethkateswitaj.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 10:43:57 +1100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Pam Brown Subject: Reality Street Book Of Sonnets - a review for Jacket magazine ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Poeticists, If you know a thing or two about contemporary sonnet writing and if you would like to write a review of "The Reality Street Book Of Sonnets" -edited by Jeff Hilson (Reality Street Editions, UK, 2008) please email me on the backchannel. For information on the book - http://www.realitystreet.co.uk/ Thanks All the best, Pam ____________________________________ blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com website : http://pambrownbooks.blogspot.com/ associate editor : http://jacketmagazine.com/ _____________________________________ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 00:54:59 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: FULL MOON Frank O'Hara reading... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline FULL MOON Frank O'Hara reading 11/13/08 all details here: http://UrchinPoetry.blogspot.com ALL ARE WELCOME! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 00:17:31 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: CRIT Journal, Samhain 2008 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Crossing Rivers Into Twilight Volume III, Issue 1 is now online at http://www.critjournal.com/current.html featuring poetry by Kenneth Gurney, James Hannon, Joan McNerney, William Doreski, David Michael Wolach, and Barbra Nightingale, as well as fiction and art. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 22:30:53 -0400 Reply-To: az421@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Rob McLennan Subject: a new reviews journal started by aaron tucker; some reviews, some interviews; very new; http://www.agorareview.ca yer pal, -- writer/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project ...novel - white www.abovegroundpress.blogspot.com * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 06:56:03 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "the question one might ask of appropriation after a ceratin point is how much of it is sued to simply make the previous users of an image or term or poem etc simply vanish into a palimpssest become graveyard-- so that quoattion may become a form of erasure--" David, "Palimpsest becoming a graveyard," isn't this one of the basic way poetry, language as a force continue to exist, in the graveyard? Is this not what Spicer's *After Lorca* and Kent Johnson's *The Miseries of Poetry* are saying? "or turn into simply an ever more distanced set of terms which become eventually abstractions, without any particualr meaning letin them at all--and so exist as decorative designs on the walls around a villa--. which no one reads though they actually "know" them-- in that way what wasonce a visible sign becomes a covert form of suggestion" perhaps, concealed inside a formal decorative desing--" Yes. As you say, "hiding in plain sight." I noticed that converto architects in Spain, after the defeat of the Moors and the onset of The Inquisition, often place Stars of David, as secret signatures, among the decorations in the walls or entrances. "or simply vecomes so commonplace that it turns into being a stok in trade of jokes" Doesn't a lot of Shakespeare in English or Orhan Veli in Turkish live as integrated pieces of language in everyday conversation? Isn't that one of the most important ways a poet goes on living? Ciao, Murat On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:06 PM, David Chirot wrote: > Dear Barry: > > many thanks for this book suggestion-- > i've read other texts which desribed through time the incredible amassing > of > Talmudic commentaries, and commentaries upon thse and more in turn upon > those-- > and as you write, yes, it becomes an endless many authored series of words > reaching back to one intial word pehrps, or very small phrase-- > > heidegger has his own manner of examining "etymologies" in this way in his > efforts to ask "waht is called thinking?-" and other questions-- > > and today one finds these very peculair versions of the Taoist, Talmudic, > old Latin Christain commentaries and the great and ongoing ones in Islam > and > Buddhism, throughout the world-- > which are the ministers one finds on the tv who explain the roots of words > in such as a way that it slants further the already really "new versions" > of > the Bible-- > which are written in an American english i don't recongize but perhaps that > indicates it is the Word of God, who knows-- > > in music one finds this very much--in Jazz and soul music, blues for > example > there are so many versions and allusions to one song or a few bars of a > very > well knwon song--and these build in delta build ups--horizonatally and > vertically--of sound and allusions to previous versions-- > sometimes one in particualr, sometimes a number of them--so as one listens > one hards the sounds and voices of a great many others--al of them quoted > and alluded to, hinted at, evoked-- > and then given a new feeling, tone, vividness--shiftings in the > emotionswhich make appear whole new configurations of meaning than one had > found in that song before-- > > and in the theater one finds this also--and some forms of poetry recitals, > where a ceratin pewrson's style is being alluded to or copied, mimiced, as > triobute, homage or satire-or a put down > or simply a gesture of ear whacking contempt! > > there is the other sign of the coin so to speak in which apporopriation can > takeon an aspect of the "stealing of souls" as in the fear of havingone's > photo taken-- > > or an old Mowhak in-law of mine who never spoke on the telphone > becuase--itis not speaking with people who are "present"-- > in which case one cannot trust them, these voices-- > > even though they may sound exaclty like so and so > > how doesone know it is them-- > or even thatitis aliving voice and notone from thelandof the dead > (which mary baker eddy had an interst in as witness her having aphone you > can try calling her on in her vault in mt auburn cemetery in cambridge, ma) > > the question one might ask of appropriation after a ceratin point is how > much of it is sued to simply make the previous users of an image or term or > poem etc simply vanish into a palimpssest become graveyard-- > > so that quoattion may become a form of erasure-- > > or turn into simply an ever more distanced set of terms which become > eventually abstractions, without any particualr meaning letin them at > all--and so exist as decorative designs on the walls around a villa-- > > which no one reads though they actaully "know" them-- > > in that way what wasonce a visible sign becomes a covert form of > suggestion" perhaps, concealed inside a formal decorative desing-- > or simply vecomes so commonplace that it turns into being a stok in trade > of > jokes > > another way of using appropriated materials of course is to say--they are > not my words which say these things--i simply am using thesematerials as > part of aproject-- > > so an approproiator--may mmanage to use this method to absolve of > respsoanbality their actions when it comes to something which according to > the emily post school of appropriation it is not appropriate to > approprioate > > alsothe concepts of how much does one reveal of onself and how much does > one > conceal by the use of approrpriation-- > > do those used actually give or hide any indicationsof who itis that has > chosen them and what may or may not be their motives? > > also , another weay to give credence to things that are "faked" for > example, > is to begin "quoting them"--so that the quotes get picked up and are quoted > and cited elsehwere andon into a chain of citations establishing as having > a > "real, concrete existence" things whih are not at all real but simply those > things like joe the plumber that are "plants"-- > > in this manner one may play games with those who appriate by laying traps > ahead of time for them! > > a kind of ruins in revrse set up in whcih what comes after this opening > move > which is a pitfall of destruction--simply falls into the trap, rather than > adding on to the endless seriesof supllements-- > > i have to stop before getting too dizzy and go catch abus! > > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Barry Schwabsky < > b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > > > Thanks, as usual, for all that, David. > > JJust one thing to add: It is well worth readiing "The Dream of the > Poem," > > Peter Cole's great anthology of Medieval Hebrew poetry....If you read the > > extensive annotations along with the poems you will see that, however > > original no matter what the ostensible subject, each one is basically a > web > > of allusions to the Bible. It becomes clear that for them, the ultimate > > poetic trope was the citation. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: David Chirot > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Thursday, 30 October, 2008 5:23:10 PM > > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > > > > Since a great deal of the work of the Pre-Socratics and ancient Greek > poets > > (Sappho, for example--and many others--I'm only writing of the West, > though > > this has occurred in Taoist texts also in China, poetry and otherwise)--a > > great deal of work has come down as being included in the works of > > others--who may or not make note or sly allusion that these are buried > > lines > > attributed to so and so--and yet--being appropriated thus reflect as well > > on > > the one preserving them--so that appropriation becomes a badge of > knowledge > > and taste, a sign of one's own high standing in the ascending rungs the > > stars must take on their "stairway to heaven"-- > > that is--the greater the name, or--the more obscure--that one > > appriopriates--the more of aninsider cult one--or the more popularyy > > recognized--all these sources from which appropriations are made become, > as > > a "value" as a "name brand," also part of the "value of appropriation as > a > > method" when it is done in this manner-- > > and so in turn confer upon the "knowing and alert reader" the sense also > of > > ebing one of these stars ascending ther stairway and likewise "in with > the > > in crowd"-- > > but this is only one aspect of appropriation's wild and colorful > history-- > > > > in the period of roughly 1590-1700, in the genre, immensely popular at > the > > time--of "travel literature," there was massive plagiarism going on and > in > > immensely imaginative ways, with a borrowing here, a stolen bit there and > > everywhere a stitch in time saves nine and voila one has produced yet a > new > > book of wonders, authored by a pseudonym-- > > in turn translated by the same person under a different name into the > > "french"--so that it there appears as the work of yet another > > pseudonym--and > > then is translated back into English by again the same person, with the > > "translation" appearing under yet a new name-- > > > > (this method is used today by various agencies planting disinformation, > > among them MEMRI, which furnishes almost the Middle Eastern news for the > > entire mainstream American media--) > > > > (these things all happened--Defoe was one of the great practitioners, and > > Sterne also was a merry inventor of the voyages to the various then "New" > > worlds as well as ones among the "old"--) > > > > the greatest contemporary practitioner of creating works from found > > materials is Paul Metcalf, great grandson of Herman Melville--Paul's > > magnificent sound poem APALACHE is a full book--history of that area of > the > > proto-United States--constructed entirely of texts he put togetehr-- > > not a word of his own appears in the text-- > > many of his other works are built using the same principal, although in > > each > > a particular set of themes or images is used to make connections which > > bring > > togetehr "unrelated" events, histories, persons to create revelatory > > histories, geographies and physiognomies--for example, I-57--written to > > celebrate his 57th year--is an account of a journey up route I-57--which > > uses texts from nervous system ailments, migraines and others to make > > another form of mapping simultaneous with that "found on the AAA maps"-- > > > > BOTH--combines the lives of John Wilkes Booth and Poe--and in Genoa, the > > diaries of Columbus and works of Melville occupy the mind of a narrator > > during an evening as he cares for his children and travels also in time > > through the adventures of his criminal brother's life-- > > > > I think Metcalf of any writer i have so far found is the greatest at > making > > "connections" among found materials, quantum leaps that are a pure > poetry > > in action--and using these juxtapositions of words and phrases to bring > > forth new arrangements of images, sounds, ideas that are astonishing, for > > again, their uncanny effect-- > > things which seem at once familiar and yet strangely new, unknown--as > > though > > seen for a first time and at the same time with a sense of eerie deja > vu-- > > and as well plunging one, like his ancestor, into depths which are found > to > > be teeming among the materials of the existent world of elements and > > objects, forces and actions, of something Other-- > > Paul cited a number of times the music of Charles Ives as an example--the > > use of bits and pieces of music from every sphere of hearing--arranged > into > > a completely different yet at the same time uncannily familiar "picture" > in > > sound-- > > > > Clark Coolidge wrote a very amazing work of appropriation i think > > influenced > > by Metcalf (as was a lot of Susan Howe's earlier work)--Smithson > > Depositions--which makes use of texts by Kerouac, WCW, Robert Smithson, > > Godard, geology texts, etc--it's an extraordinary and beautiful work-- > > > > the travel literature texts--a number of them are yet in print--even > though > > chunks of them are inventions as well as appropriations--sewn togetehr by > a > > traveller who never left a cosy fire side desk-- > > Defoe wrote a book on Madagascar for example that was still used > seriously > > by travellers for over a hundred fifty years after Defoe had entirely > > imagined it and used also the bits and pieces his sharp eye had come > across > > in the flood ties of verbiage washing ashore in England and the other > > countries of Europe during the mad rushing years to gobble up the hew > > world-- > > > > out of this literature was born eventually the first forms of the modern > > novel of "realism"--such as Defoe's own!--to be sure-- > > > > earlier, as has been noted, Shakespeare was using huge chunks of work > that > > came ashore from Italy and Spain--and there were cross pollinations of > > texts > > through the late Middle Ages, into the Renaissance and Elizabethan > > periods--often one may find transpositions (translations of another form, > > to > > put it in a poetic manner--)-- > > > > transpositions of whole works, with only the names of characters and > > settings changed to conform the local area and ruler's policies and the > > scandals of local VIPs-- > > > > what is now the United States of course furnished an incredible breeding > > ground for texts of all sorts which in turn produced texts from amongst > > themselves--with cross breedings, transpositions, faked translations, > > plagiarisms, al mixed with here and there some actual observations of an > > actual traveler--not to mention the accounts being included given by > > Indians > > who were simply "giving the wrong directions" to gullible explorers-- > > > > if one examines the history of the survival of much of Sappho's writing, > it > > is really long history of it's been erased (by burnings primarily) as > well > > as its being 'included in" the works of others--a kind of incredible hood > > ornament added to make the vehicle of the moment have more class so to > > speak--and at the same time the efforts made to have it "melt" into the > > surfaces of the appropriators' works-- > > > > of course the greatest appropriator in a sense, the one who turns this > > method on its head entirely--is Borges' Pierre Menard--who manages the > > writing, word for word, of two Chapters and part of a third, of Don > > Quixote, > > and which the commentator and historian of Menard's works demonstrates > the > > superiority of to the originals by Cervantes-- > > > > however, it may be argued, Menard is not setting out to appropriate > > Cervantes, but to write Cervantes-- > > > > write not as Cervantes but write as Pierre Menard writing Cervantes-- > > > > The first great critic in American literary history is Edgar Allan Poe, > for > > whom the questions of plagiarism and appropriation were an obsession. > Since > > Poe himself often filched a bit here and a tidbit there, as well as > > inventing "classical authors and their quotations,"--one may see the > common > > psychological effect of projection at work--accusing others of what one > > sees > > and fears to see and know of in oneself-- > > > > Poe was also the past master of hoaxes--furthering confusing the issues > > when > > it came to his own works, prompting him to insist al the more loudly and > > wildly on the crimes of others against the rigors he insisted upon as > being > > necessary for a nascent literature to be taken seriously as having, > indeed, > > its own existence at at all, and one separate from that of the English > > language-- > > > > (this is why he's in WC W's In the American Grain--for his criticism--the > > original "Tommyhawk Man") > > > > appropriation of course, is also used in detournement, to turn an image > > against itself by the addition of a caption--which can be accomplished > also > > in lines of poems-- > > and appropriation simply as a montage or collage--the one building to an > > ideological statement, the other to a satire perhaps-- > > > > or, as in some examples from the visual arts (Sherry Levine, Cindy > Sherman, > > et alia--) one may simply take a photo of a photo or reconstruct a photo > > and > > take a photo of that--and so be making a commentary on the original photo > > itself being an example of an image within a prior system which > constructed > > it-- > > > > i think an interesting area is that in which it becomes difficult to > > discern > > the distinctions between mimicry and appropriation-- > > > > at a certain level, one might say that all writing is a form of > > appropriation, for in each word that one writes, each writer has in them > a > > sense of their own from which source they are appropriating it in th > sense > > of which first time hearing or seeing of that word they have carried with > > them in memory-- > > > > so that with each word in each writer may be living millions of teeming > > appropriations--or fewer, depending on the writer-- > > > > in another way, so many words are already constructed as things made to > be > > appropriated, carried about daily as the basic materials "to get by in > this > > world"--that without anyone realizing it, they are just things "everyone > > has > > on them"-- > > > > such is the meaning of "stock phrases" for example or "cliches" and > > "nostrums"--al this baggage one totes about that one pulls out in an > > emergency or in a daydream half interrupted--and dishes out blandly-- > > > > think on how many things in a day one might write or say really that are > > just appropriations more or less word for word of something heard or said > > just a bit earlier in the day-- > > and one produces them calmly, casually, quite offhand, mind you--as > though > > they are indeed the completely new and original thoughts of one's own-- > > > > probably a good deal more than anyone realizes throughout the course of > the > > day is just a continual appropriation of texts from earlier in the day > > culled from here and there, screen, CD, video, news flash, email, book, > > overheard conversation, direct conversation--and so and on--al this > immense > > flood of words and phrases with which one is quickly and nimbly making > > those > > quick hand outs of platitudes that smooth the operations of negotiating > > one's passage through the language infested day-- > > > > so itis that one begins to wonder--my God!--have i said or thought one > > original thing all day! > > or but been just an appropriatin' fool! > > skipping along happily flinging out the posies of phrases picked up on > the > > lawns of others-- > > > > ah yes--and to ask of Emily Post-- > > my dear, when is it appropriate > > to appropriate? > > > > for are not disquisitions on etiquette as formally of interest as though > of > > ethics says a little mouse, who hopes someday to be the Oscar Wilde of > the > > mouse holes in Emily's decaying--genteely, to be sure, old heap-- > > > > to appopriate refuse, the thrown out, is another tradition--(to which i > > belong)--the "utility of the useless"--the use of the mud for gold a la > > Baudelaire--alchemies of alleyways--Rimbaud's famous catalog of junk he > > found of use--and Schwitters picking up used bus tickets in the muddy > > desparing streets-- > > > > an appropriation of what no one wants!-- > > because in good part, "necessity is the motherfucker of invention"-- > > > > this is the appropriation method or style at the other end of the > spectrum > > form that which makes use of the highest of vlue materials in order to > > refelct well on the caliber of the poet doing the appropriating-- > > > > as one may see, there reamins really vast work to be done with the > > questions > > involved with appropriation, in the realms simply of what it means in > terms > > of taste, for example--and of the ettiquette of the approproiate use of > > appropriation--and al the hosts of meanings that may be wrung from each > > different aspect and its contexts-- > > > > its placements within the streams and flows of time-- > > > > for each appropriation is it not, creates a new history for the words > whcih > > it appropriates, reframes them, regalvanizes them--that is, if the > > appropriator is worth their salt-! > > > > as some indeed simply fall falt--but when it is working the old > > approrpriation mill is helping to keep alive the endless quantum > > possiblitlies of what are the uncertainty principle of words, letters, > > signs-- > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Tom Orange wrote: > > > > > dear listers, > > > > > > i feel i'm having a mental block and am eager for the remedy of your > > > collective wisdom: i am looking for precedents in the history of > > > poetry for appropriations of other texts into one's own poems, and yet > > > nothing comes immediately into my view prior to tzara's dadaist poem > > > and the high modernist use of documentary materials (pound, williams, > > > reznikoff, rukeyser). > > > > > > any thoughts on the history or genealogy of appropriative poetics > > > greatly appreciated. > > > > > > sincerely, > > > tom orange > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:01:50 +1300 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0810311244t345eaa59t940022a6acf6eb8f@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Murat, Tom, Barry, David, As we are seeing "appropriation"'s precursors are varied = and commonplace, to the extent that the term itself appears reductive--Chaucer's only 'a great appropriator' if= his practice is presumed to be informed by a modern idea (and its attentio= n laws and prohibitions)of authorship. =20 I am more interested in the varieties of contemporary 'ap= propriation' --it seems such a dumbly provocative term, so post-modern fer = crissakes--which is the way Murat's remarks about recent 'attacks on autho= rship and orginality' are pointed. The value of a geneology of appropriati= on, or a pre-history of authorship seems to be that it may help generate a= typology of current practices and possibilities in which re-use, refried, = is understood as more like the norm than the exception.=20 Wystan=20 =20 ________________________________________ From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of = Murat Nemet-Nejat [muratnn@GMAIL.COM] Sent: Saturday, 1 November 2008 8:44 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? Tom, Barry, David, Appropriation is the basic Medieval mode of writing, either, as Barry says, citation being the prevalent trope of writing or as outright appropriation. Chaucer is the great appropriator in English literature. Troylus and Cresyd= a is for all purposes, with some changes, of Boccaccio's Philostrato, without Chaucer ackknowledging it as such. This does not mean that he was being dishonest or propagating a hoax, simply that that was a natural Medieval writing process. A number of Chaucer's earlier works (the titles escape me now) start with a dream passage, introducing or framing the narrative which will follow. This was a common Medieval trope. A number of times, Chaucer lifts his dream passages from French examples. To understand the process better, it might be helpful to look at Medieval Cathedrals, masterpieces with no named architects. The whole construct is seen as a communal activity, something beyond the individual or authorship. The same ethos, an ethos of poetics, applies to writing also. Ruskin understood this. I think it is the source of his modernity. When David, Ken= t Johnson, myself and a few others, in various ways, attack the notion of originality or authorship, elevating the editor, the translator, the anthologist, the creator of hoaxes, the heteronymous author, the hypertext to a central position, replacing these tropes for the figure of the "poet," they are actually trying to go back to the same Medieval view of authorship and creation. Recently, Jerome Rothenberg and I had a conversation where we discussed the concept of the anthology being the ideal form of a sacred text. That discusion also, I believe, were along the same lines. Though in the 17th century the idea of the individual author was already present, one can see in certain authors the earlier prominence of citation still in full swing. One can cite three works along these lines where appropriations are integral to the text: Burton's *The Anatomy of Melanchol= y *, Browne's "Urn Buryals," Montaigne's *Essays*. If I remember correctly, Swift's *The Tale of the Tub* parodies the same style of appropriation in its person; nevertheless, in this parody the earlier style is still in full force. In English Literature, I think Johnso= n and Pope give a "temporarily fatal blow" to the process mocking its rube-like primitiveness (even Shakespeare could not escape the opprobrium) and elevating originality to a poetic ideal. Ciao, Murat On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:00 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > hi all, > > catherine daly and mark weiss were looking for some clarification on > my question regarding a possible genealogy or history of appropriative > writing. first off, and thanks to those who provided 20th-century > examples but yes i'm really looking for precedents prior to dada and > high modernism. > > as far as defining terms, i really do have in mind mostly what mark > says, substantive if not wholesale incorporation of an other('s) text, > however identified or not, into one's own. so i'm less interested in, > say, the rhapsode as song-stitcher of a people's tales; or as dave > chirot points to among his many great suggestions, the renaissance > notion of imitation or authority through citation of others rather > than through originality; or citation as example, through which, as > dave points out, many pre-socratic, sapphic etc fragments found their > sole survival; or translation, which still in most cases wants to > preserve and remain faithful to the original author's intent... > > and so as to catherine's "appropriation how/why," precisely. i'm > looking to a genealogy of appropriative poetics in part to > differentiate poets' means, intents, motives etc for doing so in the > first place. so for example, 1) tzara says make a dada poem by tearing > up a newspaper and arranging the strips you've pulled from a hat; 2) > pound, reznikoff, rukeyser pull documents from the historical and > legal records to include in their poems; 3) cage reads thru joyce, > thoreau, etc and creates mesostics from their words. clearly in each > case the authors have different motivations for these appropriative > acts and i'd like to try to map out the field, including precedents > for this kind of activity. > > additional suggestions and discussion welcome... > > thanks, > tom orange > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 09:35:30 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cunningham Subject: obtaining review copy from Burning Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm trying to obtain a copy of 'A Wild Salience' from Burning Press for a review/article I'll be doing on Rae Armantrout. I'd appreciate it if someone from there can back channel me. John Cunningham ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:27:04 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: NYC/ This Tues. Nov. 4/ Boog City's Election Night Party Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please forward ----------------- =20 Boog City=B9s Classic Albums Live presents A 2008 Election Night Extravaganza Tues., Nov. 4, 7:30 p.m. Free with a two-drink minimum Sidewalk Caf=E9 94 Ave. A NYC featuring =20 *Election Results on the Big Screen *R.E.M.=B9s Green Live =20 performed by =20 Liv Carrow, Peter Dizozza, Dan Fishback, Casey Holford + Daoud Tyler-Ameen, Phoebe Kreutz, and Ben Krieger =20 =20 *Political Poets =20 CAConrad, Vivian Demuth, Eliot Katz, Frank Sherlock, and Nathaniel Siegel =20 and =20 *Solo Musical Sets =20 Peter Dizozza and Phoebe Kreutz Hosted and curated by Casey Holford and Boog City editor and publisher David Kirschenbaum =20 Directions: F/V to 2nd Ave., L to 1st Ave. Venue is at E.6th St. =20 For further information: 212-842-BOOG(2664), editor@boogcity.com Performers=B9 bios and websites follow album running order R.E.M., Green =20 *Dan Fishback --Pop Song 89 =20 *Ben Krieger --Get Up --You Are the Everything =20 *Peter Dizozza --Stand =20 *Phoebe Kreutz --World Leader Pretend --The Wrong Child =20 *Liv Carrow --Orange Crush --Turn You Inside-Out =20 *Casey Holford + Daoud Tyler-Ameen --Hairshirt --I Remember California --11th untitled song =20 =20 Bios: =20 **Boog City http://www.welcometoboogcity.com Boog City is a New York City-based small press now in its 17th year and Eas= t Village community newspaper of the same name. It has also published 35 volumes of poetry and various magazines, featuring work by Allen Ginsberg and Lawrence Ferlinghetti among others, and theme issues on baseball, women=B9s writing, and Louisville, Ky. It hosts and curates two regular performance series=8Bd.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press, where each month a non-NYC small press and its writers and a musical act of their choosing is hosted at Chelsea=B9s ACA Galleries; and Classic Albums Live, where up to 13 local musical acts perform a classic album live at venues including The Bowery Poetry Club, Cake Shop, CBGB=B9s, and The Knitting Factory. Past albums have included Elvis Costello, My Aim is True; Nirvana, Nevermind; and Liz Phair, Exile in Guyville. **Liv Carrow http://www.myspace.com/livcarrow =20 Navel gazing, highly biographical, cathartic lyricism, obnoxious punning, moot metaphor, unabashed self-consciousness, and run-on sentences of self-promotion are qualities nary as compelling as in the case of NYC's Liv Carrow. Her songs are like the little animals that your 4-year-old nieces and nephews make out of play-doh; lumpy yet distinguishable in form, rudimentary to the point of psychedelic complexity, dry and crumbly on the outside but all kinds of squishy on the inside. =20 The mysterious and oddly lovable bassist from ecstatically weird acts Huggabroomstik and Griffin and the True Believers takes the scenic back roa= d to your heart with her porch-swing guitar folk songs and clever-ish observations on life, death, love, health food, human reproduction, the unseen world of cosmic currents, awkward crushes, metaphysics, and, everyone's favorite, despair. =20 Her influences run the gauntlet from Patsy Cline to Kate Bush to Michael Gira. Her debut album, It's About Time, recorded and produced by Huggabroomstik co-frontman Dashan Coram, is available through Olive Juice Music. =20 =20 **CAConrad=20 http://www.CAConrad.blogspot.com http://www.phillysound.blogspot.com/ =20 CAConrad is the son of white trash asphyxiation whose childhood included selling cut flowers along the highway for his mother and helping her shoplift. He escaped to Philadelphia where he lives and writes with the PhillySound poets. He is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press), (Soma)tic Midge (Faux Press), and The Book of Frank (Chax Press), and, forthcoming next year, advanced ELVIS course (Soft Skull Press), and a collaboration with poet Frank Sherlock titled The City Real & Imagined: Philadelphia Poems (Factory School). =20 =20 **Vivian Demuth http://www.poetspath.com/exhibits/viviandemuth/ http://viviandemuth.wordpress.com/ =20 A Canadian-American poet and fiction writer, Vivian Demuth is the author of the novel, Eyes of the Forest, and the poetry collection, Breathing Nose Mountain. Her work has appeared in a variety of U.S. and Canadian journals and anthologies, including: The Boreal Factor, Writing the Land, Long Shot, and Political Affairs. =20 =20 **Peter Dizozza http://www.cinemavii.com/ =20 Peter Dizozza enjoys songwriting and musical theatre production. He perform= s monthly song sets at Sidewalk Caf=E9. In 2007, La Mama E.T.C. produced his musical play, TentagatneT. As director of the newly reopened WAH Theatre, his productions include Prepare to Meet Your Maker, The Golf Wars, The Eleventh Hour, The Sea Heiress, and Paradise Found. His albums are availabl= e through Olive Juice Music. =20 =20 **Dan Fishback http://www.danfishback.com/ =20 As a solo artist and with his band Cheese On Bread, Dan Fishback has released four full-length albums in the past four years. As a performance artist, he received the 2007-2009 Six Points Fellowship to develop his new play, You Will Experience Silence, which will open in the spring of 2009. I= n 2006, P.S.122 mounted a mini-festival of his work in "No Direction Homo: Th= e Many Identical Personae of Dan Fishback." His other theater work has been presented at Dixon Place, Galapagos Art Space, and Brooklyn Arts Exchange. His writing has been published in Mentsh: On Being Jewish and Queer (Alyson Books) and in his two self-published zines, A Very Small Hole and What Have They Done To You? Fishback sat on the review panel for the 2008 Foundation for Jewish Culture New Jewish Theater Projects Grant. He has shared stages with Ani Difranco and Kimya Dawson as a member of the punk dance troupe Underthrust. He has toured North America, Europe, and Canada, and frequentl= y performs at universities across the country. =20 =20 **Casey Holford + Daoud Tyler-Ameen http://www.caseyholford.com/ http://www.myspace.com/artsororityforgirls =20 Casey Holford was raised on a diet of folk music and comic books in Massachusetts. He started playing piano at 12, picked up his mother's guita= r for coffeehouse and DIY shows at 14, and was performing regularly in the Boston-Providence songwriter circuit by 18. Now, living in Brooklyn at age 27, he has recorded three self-released solo albums, two EPs, and a 7-inch on RiYL records. He moonlights in the bands Outlines, Urban Barnyard, Dream Bitches, and Art Sorority for Girls, playing bass, electric, 12 string, and baritone guitars. Casey is also a prolific producer, helping to document hi= s community by working on projects with fellow bands and songwriters, most recently pop riot Cheese on Bread, visionary Dave Deporis, and upstart Creaky Boards. =20 Daoud Tyler-Ameen grew up on the lower east side of Manhattan. His songwriting career began in high school with a string of extra-credit projects about literary characters and the life cycles of plants. After graduation he started a new project called the Art Sorority for Girls, a collection of story-songs about the awful messes kids can get themselves into. Daoud's versatility as a drummer and multi-instrumentalist is the creative glue that has helped to hold Urban Barnyard, Outlines, and Cheese on Bread together. Daoud is working on Art Sorority's debut long player wit= h Casey, Major Matt Mason USA, and Andrew Hoepfner. =20 =20 **Eliot Katz http://www.poetspath.com/exhibits/eliotkatz/ =20 Poet and activist Eliot Katz is the author of five books of poetry, including Unlocking the Exits and When the Skyline Crumbles: Poems for the Bush Years. His forthcoming book, Love, War, Fire, Wind: Looking Out (North America's Skull), is a collaboration with the artist, William T. Ayton. =20 =20 **Ben Kreiger http://www.benkrieger.com/ =20 Ben often claims to be a Brooklyn songwriter. Anyone who meets him, however= , can immediately tell that he probably grew up in Cleveland. There was a short-lived campaign in the mid-'80s when everyone in Northeast Ohio had a bumper sticker that said, "New York May Be the Big Apple, But Cleveland's a Plum!" Ben has been a plum among the apples for 10 years. =20 In the summer of 2008 Ben took over from Lach as "Jay Leno of the Sidewalk.= " He books the club and runs the Open Stage on Monday nights. =20 His latest CD, Class Dismissed, is a concept record about community and the public school system. It is available through Fortified Records. He records himself and others at his home studio, The Rock Closet. He likes to record rock operas. =20 =20 **Phoebe Kreutz http://www.myspace.com/phoebekreutz =20 Phoebe Kreutz is a boozy floozy with a heart of gold. She sings silly songs about the things she likes best: boys and bars and vikings and tacos. =20 Growing up in New York's East Village, Phoebe learned a lot about all these things. She also learned a lot about rhyming from Dr. Seuss and the joys of thinly veiled social commentary from "He-Man" and "The Smurfs." =20 Now she's all grown up and still loving life in the big city. She gets to sing in all kinds of fun places like The Knitting Factory, Fez, Birdland, and The Sidewalk Caf=E9. It was there that she found the jolly antifolk scene= , which has nurtured and indulged her like a benevolent uncle these past few years. It was also there that she met the boys who would later join with he= r to become the world's greatest art-indie-rock band that only sings about animals in the city, Urban Barnyard. =20 =20 **Frank Sherlock http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Sherlock.html =20 Frank Sherlock is the co-author (with Brett Evans) of Ready-To-Eat Individual, an unofficial State-of-the-City of New Orleans in the Year 1 A.K. (After Katrina). His newest book, entitled Over Here is forthcoming from Factory School in January. =20 =20 **Nathaniel Siegel =20 Nathaniel Siegel is a poet, artist, and activist. On Nov. 19, he will be a featured artist at the Leslie/Lohman Gay Art Foundation in SoHo. His first chapbook is forthcoming from Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs. -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:48:25 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <5CA82D628C40AD4E9EB5013ADB6F6A9A0BF2E8BFC7@artsmail4.ARTSNET.AUCKLAND.AC.NZ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Wystan, For Petrarch, who might be considered the inventor of modernism, I am paraphrasing, desire for fame is the last infirmity of the poetic mind. What is fame but an anticipation of the idea of property residing in a single individual. The implication is that the poet owns his (in Pertrarch's time a man) poem. When I am defending the idea of a poem belonging, through appropriations, to a whole community, I may be critical or provocative within the capitalist definition of appropriation as ownership; but, simultaneously, I am pointing that the other meaning of appropriation -which completely negates the "contemporary" one- has been the practice geographically much more wide and historically for a much longer period of time. Ciao, Murat On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 8:01 AM, Wystan Curnow wrote: > Murat, Tom, Barry, David, > As we are seeing "appropriation"'s precursors are varied > and commonplace, to the extent that > the term itself appears reductive--Chaucer's only 'a great appropriator' if > his practice is presumed to be informed by a modern idea (and its attention > laws and prohibitions)of authorship. > I am more interested in the varieties of contemporary > 'appropriation' --it seems such a dumbly provocative term, so post-modern > fer crissakes--which is the way Murat's remarks about recent 'attacks on > authorship and orginality' are pointed. The value of a geneology of > appropriation, or a pre-history of authorship seems to be that it may help > generate a typology of current practices and possibilities in which re-use, > refried, is understood as more like the norm than the exception. > Wystan > > > > ________________________________________ > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of > Murat Nemet-Nejat [muratnn@GMAIL.COM] > Sent: Saturday, 1 November 2008 8:44 a.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > > Tom, Barry, David, > > Appropriation is the basic Medieval mode of writing, either, as Barry says, > citation being the prevalent trope of writing or as outright appropriation. > Chaucer is the great appropriator in English literature. Troylus and > Cresyda > is for all purposes, with some changes, of Boccaccio's Philostrato, without > Chaucer ackknowledging it as such. This does not mean that he was being > dishonest or propagating a hoax, simply that that was a natural Medieval > writing process. A number of Chaucer's earlier works (the titles escape me > now) start with a dream passage, introducing or framing the narrative which > will follow. This was a common Medieval trope. A number of times, Chaucer > lifts his dream passages from French examples. > > To understand the process better, it might be helpful to look at Medieval > Cathedrals, masterpieces with no named architects. The whole construct is > seen as a communal activity, something beyond the individual or authorship. > The same ethos, an ethos of poetics, applies to writing also. Ruskin > understood this. I think it is the source of his modernity. When David, > Kent > Johnson, myself and a few others, in various ways, attack the notion of > originality or authorship, elevating the editor, the translator, the > anthologist, the creator of hoaxes, the heteronymous author, the hypertext > to a central position, replacing these tropes for the figure of the "poet," > they are actually trying to go back to the same Medieval view of authorship > and creation. Recently, Jerome Rothenberg and I had a conversation where we > discussed the concept of the anthology being the ideal form of a sacred > text. That discusion also, I believe, were along the same lines. > > Though in the 17th century the idea of the individual author was already > present, one can see in certain authors the earlier prominence of citation > still in full swing. One can cite three works along these lines where > appropriations are integral to the text: Burton's *The Anatomy of > Melancholy > *, Browne's "Urn Buryals," Montaigne's *Essays*. > > If I remember correctly, Swift's *The Tale of the Tub* parodies the same > style of appropriation in its person; nevertheless, in this parody the > earlier style is still in full force. In English Literature, I think > Johnson > and Pope give a "temporarily fatal blow" to the process mocking its > rube-like primitiveness (even Shakespeare could not escape the opprobrium) > and elevating originality to a poetic ideal. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:00 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > > > hi all, > > > > catherine daly and mark weiss were looking for some clarification on > > my question regarding a possible genealogy or history of appropriative > > writing. first off, and thanks to those who provided 20th-century > > examples but yes i'm really looking for precedents prior to dada and > > high modernism. > > > > as far as defining terms, i really do have in mind mostly what mark > > says, substantive if not wholesale incorporation of an other('s) text, > > however identified or not, into one's own. so i'm less interested in, > > say, the rhapsode as song-stitcher of a people's tales; or as dave > > chirot points to among his many great suggestions, the renaissance > > notion of imitation or authority through citation of others rather > > than through originality; or citation as example, through which, as > > dave points out, many pre-socratic, sapphic etc fragments found their > > sole survival; or translation, which still in most cases wants to > > preserve and remain faithful to the original author's intent... > > > > and so as to catherine's "appropriation how/why," precisely. i'm > > looking to a genealogy of appropriative poetics in part to > > differentiate poets' means, intents, motives etc for doing so in the > > first place. so for example, 1) tzara says make a dada poem by tearing > > up a newspaper and arranging the strips you've pulled from a hat; 2) > > pound, reznikoff, rukeyser pull documents from the historical and > > legal records to include in their poems; 3) cage reads thru joyce, > > thoreau, etc and creates mesostics from their words. clearly in each > > case the authors have different motivations for these appropriative > > acts and i'd like to try to map out the field, including precedents > > for this kind of activity. > > > > additional suggestions and discussion welcome... > > > > thanks, > > tom orange > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:11:53 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0810310157g71f53bdfi1768e4970106241c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline In a note regarding the appended glossary at the book's end, William S Burroughs in his Introduction to Junkie (1953) writes: "A final glossary, therefore, may not be made of words whose intentions are fugitive." One aspect of both translation and appropriation is precisely that what is done with the original text is NOT to copy, as Murat notes, but indeed to create meta-narratives of and/or with/for them, and not necessarily paralle= l ones, either. This last point, for me at any rate, is important to keep in mind, for in examing the questions of translations and appropriations, one needs to remain aware of the possiblities for these to be used in ways which, while being "camouflaged" perhaps as "artistic," may instead be directed in more sinister directions. As usual, there are a good many more than "two sides to a story," and it is in fact this very potentiality, these many possiblities, and the uncertainty principle in regards to which are being activated--that makes the activity of working with as well as studying such materials a more complex and subtly varieagted one than may at first be supposed. For example, in referring to Walter Benjamin and his "Arcades Project," Murat notes Benjamin's envisioning a work made entirely of quotations, whic= h would be an aspect of the philosopher's conception of an "ideal language." To open some of the myraid possiblities in any given moment in the act/work of apprropriation and/or translation, let's use for a few moments the point of view of Burroughs' words whose intentions are fugitive. The figure of "Benjamin's Baudelaire," which has become a more familiar and preferred "Baudelaire" for many English speaking readers than the actual (s= o to speak) Baudelaire and his actual works, is a "living example" of this form of "ideal language" functioning in the direction of a totalizing system, in which the "colonization" of the past is carried out in order to draw from it the indications of the immediate or eventual triumph of the translator/appropriator's ideology/theology/theory of preference. That is, one amasses and arranges the objects and quotations of the past in such a way as to become the accurate predictors of a future envisioned via rear projection and reverse engineering. Thus, perhaps, a new form of astrology may be created as well as "theses on history." One might look at this from the point of view of a language "whose intentions are fugitive" and recognize in this "ideal language" the dream o= f an entropic steady state of "security" in all senses of the word, in which the desire for a homogeneity is realized. One may examine both translations and appropriations in terms of what frame the translator/appropriator is working to insert the "original" work into. That is, the frame of the translator/appropriator's conception of an "ideal language," whether of poetry, history, ideology, theory etc. within the language and society in which they would like their translation/appropriation to "succeed," to "convince the reader of the valu= e of the work beyond its original words and tongue." In a fitting sense, since this work may involve legal difficulties at some point, the translator/appropriator may become a from of advocate for the "case" of the work of so-and-so to be included in the files of the "ideal language" and the culture which it is participating in the formation of. T= o "argue the case," so to speak, it may be necessary to withhold some evidence, and exaggerate perhaps the importance of other bits and pieces of "evidences." To alter the meaning of a word here or mute the tone of another there. Small shifts spread over the course of a poem, a collection= , a body of work, accrue and accumulate and so build from within the un-ideal original the structure of its "meta-narrative," a new and ideal shining Cit= y from out of the shell of the old, to paraphrase the IWW slogan. At a certain level then, what is sought for via such aspects of translation= s and/or appropriations is to produce works which are in conformity with the standards desired by the society/culture into which they are being introduced, at least for "the time being," and hopefully "for a long time t= o come." The underlying impetus of this might be thought of as the resistance to the uncertainty principle, and the desire for a "security" even in what are called "risky" or "experimental" phases and forms of work. It is in this sense that an artist like Dubuffet observes the action and writes of an "asphyxiating culture." The "Arcades Project" from this perspective becomes an immense temple-tomb, a colossal assemblage of bric-a-brac on the order of Citizen Kane's Xanadu, a monument to another aspect of the Benjaminian cosmology, "The Collector." "The Collector" aspect of constructing the "ideal language," via translations, appropriations, is that one becomes a tourist and, if so capable, a tour-guide, which is what many of Benjamin's works basically are. The Situationists, who conceived of themselves as drifters among the psycho-geographies of the urbanscapes, setting out on the long patrols of the derive , scoffed at both conventional and "cultured/philosophical" tourism as "tourism in other people's misery." From this point of view, translation/appropriation becomes the collecting and "taking possession" in all senses of the word, of photos, images, icons, objects, texts, musics, dances which paradoxically belong to others who can't have them, or can't have them in the way that the one "taking possession" of them does. The irony is that in the age of "intellectual property," the "death of th= e author" should become such an idealized trope, because if anything, the "author" is more alive than ever. Again, the spectre of the legal profession arises, the one in which Bartleb= y made his decision to "prefer not to" be a copyist anymore, and simply become, literally, "silent as the Tombs" in which appropriately named penal institution he perished, he, the former handler of "dead letters." For today one witnesses the spectacle of legal entanglements regarding the appropriation or translation of authors' works, or of their appropriations of others' appropriations, and a Ron Silliman can threaten to sue an anthology which attaches his name (owned by him) to a poem not written by him. (What would happen if a poem written by him were published as an anonymous piece, or attributed to some totally unknown, perhaps even non-existent "name"?) Until late in the 19th century, there was no copyright to protect American authors from having their works pirated and distributed to great profit by publishers aboard, especially in England. An aspect of the plagiarism that so obsessed Poe was that an author could steal willy nilly from another, an= d so make money off another's labor without having to do the actual work at all. The attacks Poe made on plagiarism were not always so much about "intellectual property" and "originality" as about the artist being paid fo= r their time and labor and sharing in the profits it created for the publishers. Poe understood this from his own experience, as he had been employed at one point on basically plagiarizing an entire book on conchology, adding just enough "original" touches here and there to make th= e pirated edition appear "not the same, but new," for the benefit and profit of the publishers. This form of "authorship" was fairly common at the time, and one that was a logical progression from the earlier heyday of Travel Literature (discussed in a previous post.) In the earlier phases, travel literature ranged wildly from rather crude cobblings of roughly smacked together bits and pieces of others' works, with, if the cobbler of the work had some imagination, some "previously unrecorded" and especially thrilling and "New! Astonishing! Marvels Never Before Seen nor Heard Of!" thrown into the mix to add to the sales and also to the ever more hallucinatory visions of the lands on the other side of th= e Atlantic, the Indian or Pacific Oceans. (I recently came across an advertisement trumpeting the latest edition of a= n old classic of the Travel Literature days, one which is made up of a good bit of plagiarism, some invention and some pure nonsense that the Indians had fobbed off on the gullible explorers. The book is still in print as having yet a value as a guidebook to the areas it concerns! ) Lautreamont and Poe made great use of this tradition of license being extended in travel literature and works on such subjects as conchology--for Lautreamont's Chants de Maldoror are constructed with vast swathes of pure plagiarism, cheerfully mixed in with le Comte's Baroque treatments of the Gothic tradition from earlier in the same century, and plenty of doses of scientific jargon culled from various dust collecting texts. (Witness also the opening of Moby Dick, which consists of the etymologies and examples of the names of the whale through time and around the globe, among many many languages and cultures.) I noted before that there is a relationship--as there is in Moby Dick--between the uses of appropriation and translations, mimicry and copying, which make of writing potentially a form of acting, even of an acting in a theater constructed by the writer and in which the writer becomes both the director and the leading character or characters. It is possible also for the writer to become the audience as well and in turn the critics, who provide reviews, commentaries, blurbs, hatchet jobs and fawnin= g notes of introduction for some favorite of theirs whom they wish to promote in the role of a kind of "private agent." This dispersal of the "writer" through so many roles in turn begins to generate ever more series of meta-writers, meta-dramas, meta-commentaries until one has what is basicall= y the long glorious history of the productions of Shakespeare's Richard the Third and their myriad spinoffs, including Johnny Rotten copying Laurence Olivier's Richard in the film version for his creation of the character and existence as a performer on stage of--Johnny Rotten, who in his turn is ranting and attacking the Queen. This theatricality of a writing which makes use of appropriations and translations (including invented ones) means that the "author" does not "die" but instead becomes an actor, in which the presence of other voices begins to issue through the throat and the writing of "some one else" to come from the hands. The actor whom is the role that the writer has become, speaks lines which are--whose?--The writer's? the actor's? the role's? And out of these emerges a writing which is a fiction which is at the same time real, or a reality which is fictional, and al the while is performing an activity which is a writing, a gestural, visceral, sonic and visual action writing which may in fact exist "nowhere at all" but as the non-writings of a non-writer who regards thinking and writing as the same, just as imagined writing may exist in a sphere in which it has no need of being "written down," as it enjoys in fact the freedom of it's not existing on the page, but in the "else wheres.". When Bartleby says "I would prefer not to" and instead stands staring at th= e blank view through his window of a very close pressed wall of the building opposite--is it into these elsewheres that his writing now is being done? So it is that a personage like my "El Colonel" and Spicer's Lorca, and Yasusada's Spicer as well as the Yasusada created by the reader out of the accoutrements that are provided for the acting out of the role--so it is that these "non-existent" writers mingle with actual writers who are actually dead, in a theater in which ghosts are lovers and fictional non-ghosts consort with ghosts and the action of the writing is THE LIVING of that being that one is to think of as either "the author" or "the death of the author author." For it is not death, but dispersal across, through, within, and away from writing itself that is the action of the being formerly known as "the author." Writing has lives of its own in which the writer may find encounters with it, that outside which now and then bumps into him or her, and then, after = a bit, takes off again. Or an outside which is found, hidden in plain site/sight/cite all around one, that writing which is continually alive and changing, moving, at once fugitive and glimpsed by, as Robert Smithson call= s it, "the artist's glance," which can be a work as real as any object, yet not exist except in the time and the "art of looking" of the artist. For once it becomes an object, then the artist is "signing over" the time and art of looking as a possesion in which someone else "owns the art" and in a subtle or not so subtle way, also "owns the artist." The real death of the author may then be the sense that exists at present o= f the author, a being tied down by legal contracts to a name, an identity car= d number, an address, a telephone, a place and status within such and such community of other authors. It is this death which a writer may well choose to "prefer not to" be part of, and so find in a "fugitive" existence the ever chaning words and lines of a lexicon which cannot be fixed, nor colonized, nor turned into yet another copyrighted name plated representation of themselves, all ready to charge off to court to protect a name attached to a function which they may at the same time profess to desire the death of. President Reagan, the Great Communicator, was in his own way an interesting example of a collector of quotations with an ear and eye to creating his own form of "ideal language," one which has proved to be one o= f the most radical in its effects of modern times. Reagan loved quotations, and his bedside reading consisted of a single colossal tome of nothing but quotations, organized for use on any occasion imaginable and many , one imagines, not yet imagined, but that one should be prepared for, after all, as The Great Communicator. Having been an actor, a president of the Screen Actors Guild, and a long time pitchman for Westinghouse and GE, as well as a radio announcer and tv celebrity both as actor and advertiser, Reagan had no problem at all memorizing hunks of quotations, plagiarized and appropriated lines and bits of speeches, and "was never at a loss for words," a favorite technique being to tell some ancient joke or story "as though for the first time," so that it's being a quotation was not even noticed. In this way, he appeared to be an alert and quick-on-his-feet-thinker though in fact he was just pulling rabbits out of his well stocked hat. Reagan's cheerful attitude to taking away the meanings of lines and replacing them with the same words, only now heard as his own, reached a moment of triumph in his appropriating the anti-Vietnam War song "Born in the USA' as his own campaign song in 1984. Suddenly, the verses disappeare= d and all one really heard were those endlessly repeated choruses of "Born in the USA, Born in the USA" as though that was all that mattered. And in cynical way, he was right--after all the song was made for a movie and appeared long after the actual War, so how it could literally be "an anti-Vietnam War song?" Reagan's appropriation in a sense exposed the song's appropriation of the emotions of another time and another person, an= d so the Reagan version had as much "validity" as the original did. And, it being a song for a movie, who better to make use of it than an old movie actor, one who had actually appeared in war movies, if not the actual war, unlike the song's author, who had done neither. And Reagan even quoted in Russian, with translation--the famous "trust but verify" "Russian proverb" he had learned from his buddy "Mr. Gorbachev." A= t one point, in a pure unadulterated paroxysm of patriotism, he forgot himsel= f and recounted his "war memories"--actually scenes from a war film he had played in. In a sense, to show the "reality" of his emotions, he was "quoting from memory" a "real war scene" in which he had acted competently enough to convince himself that he had actually been in the war. In this way, quoting from his roles allowed him to create a non-existent biography which al the same was "documented on celluloid," that could be edited into various versions of his official "biopic." In Poe's brief "sketch" written to accompany an illustrated plate, entitled "Morning on the Wissahicon," (a forerunner of Reagan's "New Morning in America" as already a "Mourning on the Wissihicon)--a traveller takes a jaunt down the Wissihicaon and discovers unexpectedly, so close to the metropolis of Philadelphia, a wild and savage remnant of an America already thought to be long past, and but the figments and shards of a former dream. He sees an Indian in a wild overgrowth of unspoiled natural landscape, and as he drifts by the dramatic scene, there even appears a a magnificent and authentic American deer--a sort of proto--"Deer Hunter" moment in which the marvelling traveler is confirmed in his belief that at last he has found th= e old, the real America, of the wilderness and "savages," and the untamed wil= d life and untrimmed flora of his "native land." Yet, the traveller later learns, all of this has been an elaborate and beautifully staged simulacra, for a wealthy Englishman has purchased th= e former Colonial landscape, and populated it with a servant dressed and made up as an Indian, let the flora go carelessly to seed, and provide the whole as a topping to the cake, a domesticated deer who is able to pose as a wild one for the passersby of a Sunday. Already a "quotation" of what had been = a stock vision of the "old America" in all its "savage splendour" has replace= d the original with a copy which "outshines" as it were not only the long vanished original, but has also made, on is certain, the old real estate greatly increase in value by looking so like what it had replaced in terms of what had been thought to be along lost memory with a Brand new and vivid recreation posing as indeed "the reality of today." Poe's Englishman thus has accomplished already the creating of an "ideal language and landscape" made entirely of quotations, and for Poe, th= e "mourning" in this "morning" is that the morning is in a sense not yet over with and it has already been replaced by a quotation of itself, which will "outlive" the former and so in a sense give cause, if one recalls it at all= , a "mourning" for the "morning on the Wissihicon which now no longer exists except as indeed an ideal language and landscape "in quotation." The further "mourning" is that the English, who had been the former and for a while defeated Colonial Power, have now wrested away what had been known of as an "American original" and turned it into an English owned and recolonized landscape preserved as a copy of the vanished original. At the time that Poe began writing, ruins were all the rage, due in good part to Gothic and Romantic literature from Europe--the kind of literature and ruins Benjamin was later to write his now famous unpublished thesis on. Americans were in a state of anxiety, as their country seemingly had produced no "real ruins." Poe--who had attended school five years abroad i= n Scotland--had seen "real ruins" and as he replied to one critic who accused him of writing in the manner of the Germans of the time--"Terror is not of Germany, but of the soul." Having witnessed the decomposition and descent into ruins via disease of his dying mother, dying older brother and then dying wife, Poe realized that the the lack of "real ruins" are, like Emerson's Nature--"the blank and ruin we see in Nature is within our eye"--is not a lack at all but instead the blindness to what is in front of one--the decomposition and decay at the core of being, no matter how "new." In his "Philosophy of Composition," Poe constructs an impeccably rational method by which he has gone about composing his poem "The Raven." No "romantic ruins" or frenzy inspired him, no "inspiration," but, instead, a kind of calculating feat of engineering brought to bear on the decompositio= n of the very thing that has constructed the poem--the rational, the logical, the "constructive" mind. The use of quotation passes from humans to a bird--"quoth the Raven, 'Nevermore.'" The bird may even be a copy of a bird, a mechanical bird whose cries are repeated by virtue of a timing mechanism triggered by the last lines of the verse preceding its next outburst. Or they may indeed be those of a "real bird," "quoting" "nevermore," a phrase which plunges the student in the poem into one of those ever deepening and decomposing morasses of the soul which Poe depicts also in the guise of decomposing bodies and languages also, which devolve into black birds' cries (perhaps "quothing the Raven" itself--??!!) as in The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym. Poe, with his rationally constructed tales in which decomposition and irrationality begin to "take over" and Burroughs with his fugitive language= s whose words change their meanings frequently not only in time--from week to week or day to day if need be-- but also vary from place to place along the trail of the outlaw addict, evidence a yearning for a language which will elude the colonization process of appropriation and quotation. For Dubuffet, the "way out" of this nightmare in the "asphyxiating culture" of the art world was Art Brut as he originally found it and conceived of it--that is, Dubuffet recognized its existence there, well having the honesty himself as an artist to know that he himself might learn from these "Raw" artists while not being one himself. That is, not that there will be an "authorial self" who is "original" but that there may exist "languages" and realms of" communications" in and among and through which the possibility of a continually "living" yet "invisible" writing is "on the move," while behind it are the deposits of its shed skins, its discarded, outdated notations, to be picked up on as "news" and "clues" so as to distract and confuse those would-be appropriators and translators of a writing which does not want to be read, and so creates "fakes" of its non-self in order to provide "cover" for its ever elusive voyages, fictions to amuse itself as it observes the futile hunters continually be led round and round in circles, deciphering non-sign= s as signs and elaborate scrawls as "lucid notations" of a "lost language" or of a "new language" which they alone will become the possessors of the secrets of, the sole appropriators and translators of, the alpha and omega of a literature which now is thought to "belong to history and civilization= " and which instead is simply an empty wooden horse, a decoy duck, while somewhere, elsewhere, the writing leads lives of its own. (Note: I just found Wyston Curnow's question re a genealogy of the appropriation use of today-- the issue of appropriation, as noted, begins to change with the introductio= n and spread of copyright laws, as with the acceleration of the production o= f copies in themselves-- Benjamin formulates his questions re "The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction" close to a hundred years after Poe has begun doin= g so. Hawthorne, writing in the 1840's roughly, in The House of Seven Gables= , already has as a major figure a Daguerreotypist who provides, along with th= e narrator, commentaries on the art of the photograph in comparison with that of painting--that is, in terms of their status as not solely copies of persons and scenes, but also as methods directed towards revealing what is otherwise hidden to the eye of an observer. The "composition" of a daguerreotype then, becomes a form of decomposition of not only a painted image, but as well of the "image of the person" themselves--"revealing" aspects hidden not only to others but also perhaps to themselves. As a "reversed mirror image" in a sense, it gives an oddly "corrected" image of that image which one had previously supposed one was seeing as others do. The very decomposition of the House itself becomes as it were a method of "letting in more light" via the cracked and fissured surfaces, which is the "pencil of light" with which the camera writes into existence a new method of representing things not only singly, but serially, or, as in the famous mirror scenes in Citizen Kane and The Lady from Shanghai--an endless series of mirrorings of the self trapped in the light of the moment which is turning it into the past as the figure moves before the --and into--the hal= l of mirrors. One might begin with an examination of many of the texts of the "Classic American Literature" (D.H Lawrence) as the first literature to in a sense compose via decomposition and in so doing decompose the "future" of its own literature before it has happened. (Rather than being a deconstruction avant la lettre, as Poe's work has furnished examinations for, it is a decomposition of the work of time on things before they have begun to exist.) One finds that already a century and a half ago and more, there already exist in this Classic Literature the contemporary the issues of copying, appropriation, translations, quotations, cataloging, "secret messages," "messages in code," the examination of handwriting itself as a method of literary "criticism," the centrality of the role of death, the appearance o= f "intelligent machines" and "psychic communications" as a form of scientific possibility--the ghostly, the after-effects existences, of unknown writings and languages which haunt the forests and wildernesses, and as well are still living among them in many vast areas, the complimentary American form= s of Gigantism (Walt Whitman, Paul Bunyan, Earthworks) and the Minimalist (Emily Dickinson)--as well as the use throughout American popular art of th= e copy of an object to represent the trade or concept for which the object's copy is supposed to stand. (The vast and eccentric systems of signs used i= n the US a hundred fifty years ago are basically the creation of a three dimensional sculptural-visual poetry of incredible variety and ingenuity. In a sense, it is a writing for persons who may not actually know how to read--in any language--or simply in English--) One of the aspects of this writing is that it in ways is more related to Ar= t Brut and Burroughs' fugitive languages, than to to the more confining and constrained of the commonly in use American examples of today, as it sees and makes use of everything as writing. This is neither "the world as text= " nor "the text as world" or today's rather fundamentalist and curiously Puritan conception of a "material word" on the page, with the attendant "sacredness of the book, the text," but something blasphemous (Melville to Hawthorne, on completing Moby Dick: "I have written a wicked book and am as clean as the Lamb")- --that is, that the world is alive with writings which are moving and changing at every moment, and themselves exist on living beings as well as on insentient "materials." (Melville also writes to Hawthorne, that the very hand which lifts now the pen that it has just written with, is not the same hand that just formed the last completed letter of script, and will not be the same as the one that writes the next--) Tattoos, scrimshaw, the Scarlet Letter, the letters of the words of an unknown language carved into the black rock of an island, (in Pym; Robert Smithson wrote of these as "perfect proto Earthwords" for a new art criticism")--the disappearing inks and concealed treasure maps, the Goldbug and its revelations--as well as the "readings" of Nature by Thoreau and Emerson, and the observations as signs in turn of the "Leaves of Grass" which are the tongues of the sleepers below ground, and, beyond that, "the untold, the unwritten war" that "Will Never Be Written in the Books" of Whitman's "Specimen Days, or the insects and flowers in Emily Dickinson which form the kind of private language which she uses to "but cross the room and be in the Spice Islands" (the continual voyage theme)--all of thes= e are writings which extend writing far beyond the "normaliiizing" convention= s of the limits of the page-- This vision of a language which is continually in movement, continually changing, concealing itself, reappearing, being thrown overboard, or bobbin= g about as the carved coffin bearing the absent Queequeg's script and the sol= e survivor and author to be of the tale of the late Pequod--is itself from a period in which the American language was in flux, not yet standardized an= d fixed into the defined and set stone of Webster's. A chaos in spelling, punctuation and grammar was perfectly acceptable, as were the wildly varyin= g degrees of abilities of readers to decipher the riot of signs and symbols running amok all around them, and so was a sense of writing as something alive and and unfixed, nomadic and tending, like Art Brut and the addict's fugitive Jargons, towards an anarchy and "Civil Disobedience" which have become increasingly tamed, toned down and timid. For example, consider that today, a work of appropriation in a conceptual sense is proffered as that of "unoriginality, copying" and the "author" thu= s no longer "exists" except as a functionary, a filer of data, a sorter of files. This is precisely the work which Bartleby is assigned to, and which he one day simply decides that he would "prefer not to" do anymore. Bartleby's act of Disobedience he pays for by being incarcerated in the tombs, there to die, refusing all the while to acept anything offered out o= f a sense of obligation by the employer who had put him there in the first place, as a last resort against homelessness. In a peculiar way, may one not say that Bartleby is a kind of "political prisoner," (civil disobediance since 9/11 carrying much heavier potential penalties) in the sense that he will no longer carry out the contemporary (today's) idea of what it means to be an author-cum-death-of-the-author? Instead, he would "prefer not to" be a writer who writes as the death of th= e author as it exists in the conceptual formulation of copyist and filer, eve= n if rejecting this method of writing-as-the-death-of-the-author means the loss of his freedom, and following that, of his life. In short, Bartleby would "prefer not to" BE a "death-of-the-author-author" but instead simply to die. here are some examples of a few of the possiblities themselves so myriad an= d ever expanding of the little i suggest in the above Conceptual Poetry and its Others UA Poetry Center May 29-31, 2008 David-Baptiste Chirot David-Baptiste Chirot: "Waterboarding & Poetry" Wordforword #13 Spring 2008 (also has Visual Poetry by chirot) Poems from Guant=E1namo The Detainees Speak David Baptite Chirot * No* KAURAB Translation Site David-Baptiste Chirot *El Colonel's Composition Book* http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2008/10/david-baptiste-chirot-el-colonels.h= tml 20080530 David-Baptiste Chirot http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2008/05/david-baptiste-chirot-el-colonel-wa= kes.html *El Colonel wakes up from dreaming* 1. [PDF ] developing poetic ideas 3647k - Adobe PDF - View as html *El* *Colonel* *Smiles*. For Roberto Bolano *...* *El* *Colonel* *smiles= *. Pleasure birds fly in exotic jungles, among tableaux of hacked and *...* www.*dusie.org*/ElColonelsmile.pdf On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:57 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote= : > Walter Benjamin's *The Arcades Project* and Montaigne's *Essays* are > masterpieces made mostly of quotations, the writer's own thoughts weaving > around them. > > Translation, if properly understood as the creation of parallel meta-text= s > rather than as copies, is a genre of appropriation. W. Benjamin's "ideal > language" -which is his concept of what translation involves- is > essentially a hypertext composed entirely of appropriated texts. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 17:21:31 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "St. Thomasino" Subject: a noun sing e=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=B7ratio_11_=B7_?= 2008 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed a noun sing e=B7ratio 11 =B72008 http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com with poetry by David Appelbaum, Donald Wellman, Mary Ann Sullivan,=20 Joseph F. Keppler, Patrick Lawler, James Stotts, David Annwn, David=20 Rushmer, Melanie Brazzell, Jennifer Juneau, John M. Bennett, Geof Huth,=20= John Mercuri Dooley, Mark Cunningham, Derek Owens, Gautam Verma, and=20 Clark Lunberry http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com edited by gregory vincent st. thomasino e=B7 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 15:15:29 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: obtaining review copy from Burning Press In-Reply-To: <2E9F29977EE24C3BB884FFA5778A920A@johnbedroom> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Why not just send them a check? On Nov 1, 2008, at 7:35 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > I'm trying to obtain a copy of 'A Wild Salience' from Burning Press > for a > review/article I'll be doing on Rae Armantrout. I'd appreciate it > if someone > from there can back channel me. > John Cunningham > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > Giorgio H. Bowering Does not kill snakes ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 19:58:25 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Fink, Kimmelman and Stone in Manhattan Comments: cc: "slurp@mailbucket.org" , "staff@poems.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Poetry Reading at the Cornelia Street Caf=E9 by Tom Fink, Burt Kimmelman, and Carole Stone November 10th 6 PM $7 Cover Charge Cornelia Street Caf=E9 29 Cornelia Street NYC 10014 212-989-9319 For directions etc.: http://www.corneliastreetcafe.com/ About the poets: Thomas Fink's fifth book of poetry, Clarity and Other Poems, was published = by Marsh Hawk Press in Spring, 2008. A Different Sense of Power (Fairleigh= Dickinson UP, 2001) is his most recent book of criticism, and in 2007, he = and Joseph Lease co-edited "Burning Interiors": David Shapiro's Poetry and = Poetics. His work appears in he Best American Poetry 2007 (Scribner's). Fi= nk's paintings hang in various collections. Burt Kimmelman has published five collections of poetry - Musaics (Sputyen = Duyvil Press, 1992), First Life (Jensen/Daniels Publishing, 2000), The Pond= at Cape May Point (Marsh Hawk Press, 2002), a collaboration with the paint= er Fred Caruso, Somehow (Marsh Hawk Press, 2005), and There Are Words (Dos = Madres Press, 2007); his volume of poems titled As If Free is forthcoming i= n 2009 (from Talisman House, Publishers). For over a decade he was Senior E= ditor of Poetry New York: A Journal of Poetry and Translation. He is a prof= essor of English at New Jersey Institute of Technology and the author of tw= o book-length literary studies: The "Winter Mind": William Bronk and Americ= an Letters (Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1998); and, The Poetics o= f Authorship in the Later Middle Ages: The Emergence of the Modern Literary= Persona (Peter Lang Publishing, 1996; paperback 1999). He also edited The = Facts on File Companion to 20th-Century American Poetry (Facts on File, 200= 5). Carole Stone, professor emerita, Montclair State University, has published = two books of poetry, the most recent, /Traveling with the Dead, /Backwaters= Press, 2007 and six chapbooks. Her most recent chapbook is /Paris Etudes/= , Finishing Line Press, 2008. She has received fellowships from Hawthornden= Writers Retreat, Scotland, Chateau de Lavigny, Switzerland and three fello= wships from the New Jersey State Council on the Arts. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:20:21 +1100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Pam Brown Subject: Sonnets - Jacket has a reviewer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks very much to everyone who emailed about reviewing The Reality Street Book of Sonnets. We have chosen a reviewer for Jacket. All the best, Pam ____________________________________ blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com website : http://pambrownbooks.blogspot.com/ associate editor : http://jacketmagazine.com/ _____________________________________ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 19:49:03 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jill Chan Subject: New Issue of Numinous: Spiritual Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Issue 2 Numinous: Spiritual Poetry http://numinousmagazine.wordpress.com New poems by Sally Rosen Kindred Mary Owens Zhuang Yisa Changming Yuan Peter Schwartz Nicholas Karavatos Ingrid Andersen Wendy Vardaman Janice Vernon Daniel Zimmerman Anne Higgins Submissions for Issue 3 now open. Send 4-6 poems, along with a short bio, to numinousmagazine@yahoo.com Also new online: Issue 27 of Poetry Sz: demystifying mental illness http://poetrysz.blogspot.com Thank you. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 00:08:36 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Corey Frost Subject: A Time for Prose at the GC, Nov. 14 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed A Time for Prose Subjectivity and the Present in Experimental Narrative Writing In =93The Sutured Subject,=94 a new essay from the acclaimed novelist =20= Gail Scott, we are given a clear sense of the predicament of =20 experimental narrative writing today: =93Virginia Woolf said nearly a =20= century ago that new sentences were needed to contain new stories,=94 =20= we are reminded. But at the same time, Scott says, =93so many good =20 stories today seem told in the mode of yesterday=92s news.=94 Playing a key role in Scott=92s essay is Walter Benjamin=92s angel of =20= history, forever propelled forward while gazing back at the past, and =20= employed here to illuminate a critical issue for writers of =20 sentences: subjectivity. =93The sentence, like the angel, expresses =20 both a glancing back, a summary, and, if allowed to play, to torque, =20 to break, in shape and in relation, a ride over the dynamic present. =20 Crucial to this operation of expressing jetztzeit in prose is the =20 work of subverting the singular writing subject=97the angel is both =20 subject and object=97allowing in other voices intervening from both the =20= past and the present.=94 A Time for Prose, a special event sponsored by the CUNY Graduate =20 Center Poetics Group, will address the present of avant-garde prose, =20 along with essential related questions: why experimental prose seems =20 eternally suspended between narrative and language, between affect =20 and the social, between history and the present. Montreal novelist =20 and essayist Gail Scott will present "The Sutured Subject," followed =20 by responses from New York writers Douglas A. Martin and Rachel =20 Levitsky. The conversation will address the influences on =20 contemporary prose of such writers as Victor Shklovsky, Kathy Acker, =20 Ren=E9e Gladman, Taylor Brady, the New Narrative group (Robert Gl=FCck, =20= Camille Roy, Dodie Bellamy and Kevin Killian), and the Language poets. Friday, November 14th, 6 pm - 8 pm The CUNY Graduate Center. 365 Fifth Avenue @ 34th Street, New York NY Room 9206 Biographical Information Gail Scott is the author of five works of fiction, including My =20 Paris, which was named one of the top ten Canadian novels of 1999 by =20 Quill and Quire and was published in the US by Dalkey Archive Press =20 (2003). Her essays, in English and French, are collected in Spaces =20 Like Stairs and la th=E9orie, un dimanche. She is a co-founder of =20 Narrativity, an online journal of contemporary experimental =20 narrative, and she also co-edited =97 along with Robert Gl=FCck, Mary =20= Burger, and Camille Roy =97 Biting the Error: Writers Explore Narrative =20= (Coach House, 2004). Gail Scott teaches Creative Writing at =20 Universit=E9 de Montr=E9al but is currently living in New York while she = =20 completes a novel and works on a new collection of stories. Her =20 essay "The Sutured Subject" will appear in the fall issue of The =20 Review of Contemporary Fiction. Rachel Levitsky is the author of five chapbooks of poetry and Under =20 the Sun, her first full length volume, published by Futurepoem books =20 in 2003. She also writes poetry plays, three of which (one with =20 Camille Roy) have been performed in New York and San Francisco. =20 Levitsky founded Belladonna, a publisher and series of events, in =20 August 1999. She teaches at Pratt Institute in Brooklyn. Douglas A. Martin is a poet, novelist and short story writer whose =20 first full-length prose work, Outline of My Lover, was selected as an =20= International Book of the Year in The Times Literary Supplement. His =20 most recent books are Your Body Figured, which consists of three =20 novellas, and In the Time of Assignments, a collection of poetry. =20 Martin is currently a visiting professor at Wesleyan University.= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 13:33:12 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: blacksox@ATT.NET Subject: Poem-N-the-Vote-Out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1st Tuesdays @ The Daily Grind 3060 S.R. 436 Suite 100 APOPKA, FL 32703 407-774-7463 =20 Featuring Amy Watkins=20 Amy Watkins writes poems in pencil on a 4X6 notepad at 5 o=E2=80=99clock in= the morning with only her dog for company. Some of those poems have recent= ly been published in Bayou, Apalachee Review and The Louisville Review, as = well as a new anthology of writing about menstruation titled Women. Period.= She graduated from Spalding University=E2=80=99s brief residency MFA in Wr= iting program, where she wrote a still-homeless book-length manuscript and = a very long critical paper on Pablo Neruda and James Wright. She lives in W= inter Park, with her husband and daughter, and pays the bills by writing ma= rketing materials for AAA. She doesn=E2=80=99t dance. She doesn=E2=80=99t p= lay favorites. And she doesn=E2=80=99t turn down free drinks. =20 November 4 @ 7:30 pm =20 Hosted By Russ Golata blacksox@att.net 407-403-5814 =20 A special evening with Amy Watkins=20 Electing an Outrageous open Mic,=20 =20 Poem-N-The-Vote-Out Thanks Russ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:56:32 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline David, Just a quick response to your post before I read it more carefully and comment on it in greater detail later: I understand very well your seeing the possibility of exploitation within the idea of appropriation. There is no question historically that has happened often enough, erasing the "original" in the process. I am referring to something quite different. Do not forget that in his matrix of "translation" and "ideal language" Benjamin sees translation as a "loose gown" or a collection of shards/fragments. Dissolution, particularly of a close system, is at the heart of his concept of tramnslation. In *Afte= r Lorca* Spicer picks that aspect of Benjamin's thought. (I have an essay exactly on that relation between Benjamin and Spicer that can be found on line in Lucas's Cypherjournal website. On the other hand, I do believe that every translation, in my sense of the word, starts with a "misreading" which cracks open the original by fragmenting it. The target language also must "misread" itself cracking itself open. This way both languages undergo transformations, creating a synthesis by joining in the space of ideal language, What translation does is to explore, crack open *latent* possibilities in both languages which the close system of each suppresses. Translation becomes a linguistic act of liberation. Here is the translation paradox: a translation misreads, but must/can never lie about the original. Misreading= s will only reveal, liberate what is inherent in them. That is how they becom= e the very reverse of exploitation. "Translation is foreignness in a language bending to contain its weight." Ciao, Murat On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:11 PM, David Chirot wrote= : > In a note regarding the appended glossary at the book's end, William S > Burroughs in his Introduction to Junkie (1953) writes: "A final glossary= , > therefore, may not be made of words whose intentions are fugitive." > > One aspect of both translation and appropriation is precisely that what i= s > done with the original text is NOT to copy, as Murat notes, but indeed to > create meta-narratives of and/or with/for them, and not necessarily > parallel > ones, either. > > This last point, for me at any rate, is important to keep in mind, for in > examing the questions of translations and appropriations, one needs to > remain aware of the possiblities for these to be used in ways which, whil= e > being "camouflaged" perhaps as "artistic," may instead be directed in mor= e > sinister directions. As usual, there are a good many more than "two side= s > to a story," and it is in fact this very potentiality, these many > possiblities, and the uncertainty principle in regards to which are being > activated--that makes the activity of working with as well as studying su= ch > materials a more complex and subtly varieagted one than may at first be > supposed. > > For example, in referring to Walter Benjamin and his "Arcades Project," > Murat notes Benjamin's envisioning a work made entirely of quotations, > which > would be an aspect of the philosopher's conception of an "ideal language.= " > > To open some of the myraid possiblities in any given moment in the act/wo= rk > of apprropriation and/or translation, let's use for a few moments the poi= nt > of view of Burroughs' words whose intentions are fugitive. > > The figure of "Benjamin's Baudelaire," which has become a more familiar a= nd > preferred "Baudelaire" for many English speaking readers than the actual > (so > to speak) Baudelaire and his actual works, is a "living example" of this > form of "ideal language" functioning in the direction of a totalizing > system, in which the "colonization" of the past is carried out in order t= o > draw from it the indications of the immediate or eventual triumph of the > translator/appropriator's ideology/theology/theory of preference. That i= s, > one amasses and arranges the objects and quotations of the past in such a > way as to become the accurate predictors of a future envisioned via rear > projection and reverse engineering. Thus, perhaps, a new form of astrolo= gy > may be created as well as "theses on history." > > One might look at this from the point of view of a language "whose > intentions are fugitive" and recognize in this "ideal language" the dream > of > an entropic steady state of "security" in all senses of the word, in whic= h > the desire for a homogeneity is realized. > > One may examine both translations and appropriations in terms of what fra= me > the translator/appropriator is working to insert the "original" work into= . > That is, the frame of the translator/appropriator's conception of an "ide= al > language," whether of poetry, history, ideology, theory etc. within the > language and society in which they would like their > translation/appropriation to "succeed," to "convince the reader of the > value > of the work beyond its original words and tongue." > > In a fitting sense, since this work may involve legal difficulties at som= e > point, the translator/appropriator may become a from of advocate for the > "case" of the work of so-and-so to be included in the files of the "idea= l > language" and the culture which it is participating in the formation of. > To > "argue the case," so to speak, it may be necessary to withhold some > evidence, and exaggerate perhaps the importance of other bits and pieces = of > "evidences." To alter the meaning of a word here or mute the tone of > another there. Small shifts spread over the course of a poem, a > collection, > a body of work, accrue and accumulate and so build from within the un-ide= al > original the structure of its "meta-narrative," a new and ideal shining > City > from out of the shell of the old, to paraphrase the IWW slogan. > > At a certain level then, what is sought for via such aspects of > translations > and/or appropriations is to produce works which are in conformity with th= e > standards desired by the society/culture into which they are being > introduced, at least for "the time being," and hopefully "for a long time > to > come." > > The underlying impetus of this might be thought of as the resistance to t= he > uncertainty principle, and the desire for a "security" even in what are > called "risky" or "experimental" phases and forms of work. > > It is in this sense that an artist like Dubuffet observes the action and > writes of an "asphyxiating culture." The "Arcades Project" from this > perspective becomes an immense temple-tomb, a colossal assemblage of > bric-a-brac on the order of Citizen Kane's Xanadu, a monument to another > aspect of the Benjaminian cosmology, "The Collector." > > "The Collector" aspect of constructing the "ideal language," via > translations, appropriations, is that one becomes a tourist and, if so > capable, a tour-guide, which is what many of Benjamin's works basically > are. The Situationists, who conceived of themselves as drifters among th= e > psycho-geographies of the urbanscapes, setting out on the long patrols of > the derive , scoffed at both conventional and "cultured/philosophical" > tourism as "tourism in other people's misery." From this point of view, > translation/appropriation becomes the collecting and "taking possession" = in > all senses of the word, of photos, images, icons, objects, texts, musics= , > dances which paradoxically belong to others who can't have them, or can't > have them in the way that the one "taking possession" of them does. > > The irony is that in the age of "intellectual property," the "death of t= he > author" should become such an idealized trope, because if anything, the > "author" is more alive than ever. > > Again, the spectre of the legal profession arises, the one in which > Bartleby > made his decision to "prefer not to" be a copyist anymore, and simply > become, literally, "silent as the Tombs" in which appropriately named pen= al > institution he perished, he, the former handler of "dead letters." For > today one witnesses the spectacle of legal entanglements regarding the > appropriation or translation of authors' works, or of their appropriation= s > of others' appropriations, and a Ron Silliman can threaten to sue an > anthology which attaches his name (owned by him) to a poem not written by > him. (What would happen if a poem written by him were published as an > anonymous piece, or attributed to some totally unknown, perhaps even > non-existent "name"?) > > Until late in the 19th century, there was no copyright to protect America= n > authors from having their works pirated and distributed to great profit b= y > publishers aboard, especially in England. An aspect of the plagiarism th= at > so obsessed Poe was that an author could steal willy nilly from another, > and > so make money off another's labor without having to do the actual work at > all. The attacks Poe made on plagiarism were not always so much about > "intellectual property" and "originality" as about the artist being paid > for > their time and labor and sharing in the profits it created for the > publishers. Poe understood this from his own experience, as he had been > employed at one point on basically plagiarizing an entire book on > conchology, adding just enough "original" touches here and there to make > the > pirated edition appear "not the same, but new," for the benefit and prof= it > of the publishers. This form of "authorship" was fairly common at the tim= e, > and one that was a logical progression from the earlier heyday of Travel > Literature (discussed in a previous post.) > > In the earlier phases, travel literature ranged wildly from rather crude > cobblings of roughly smacked together bits and pieces of others' works, > with, if the cobbler of the work had some imagination, some "previously > unrecorded" and especially thrilling and "New! Astonishing! Marvels Neve= r > Before Seen nor Heard Of!" thrown into the mix to add to the sales and al= so > to the ever more hallucinatory visions of the lands on the other side of > the > Atlantic, the Indian or Pacific Oceans. > (I recently came across an advertisement trumpeting the latest edition of > an > old classic of the Travel Literature days, one which is made up of a good > bit of plagiarism, some invention and some pure nonsense that the Indians > had fobbed off on the gullible explorers. The book is still in print as > having yet a value as a guidebook to the areas it concerns! ) > > Lautreamont and Poe made great use of this tradition of license being > extended in travel literature and works on such subjects as conchology--f= or > Lautreamont's Chants de Maldoror are constructed with vast swathes of pur= e > plagiarism, cheerfully mixed in with le Comte's Baroque treatments of the > Gothic tradition from earlier in the same century, and plenty of doses of > scientific jargon culled from various dust collecting texts. > > (Witness also the opening of Moby Dick, which consists of the etymologies > and examples of the names of the whale through time and around the globe, > among many many languages and cultures.) > > I noted before that there is a relationship--as there is in Moby > Dick--between the uses of appropriation and translations, mimicry and > copying, which make of writing potentially a form of acting, even of an > acting in a theater constructed by the writer and in which the writer > becomes both the director and the leading character or characters. It is > possible also for the writer to become the audience as well and in turn t= he > critics, who provide reviews, commentaries, blurbs, hatchet jobs and > fawning > notes of introduction for some favorite of theirs whom they wish to promo= te > in the role of a kind of "private agent." This dispersal of the "writer" > through so many roles in turn begins to generate ever more series of > meta-writers, meta-dramas, meta-commentaries until one has what is > basically > the long glorious history of the productions of Shakespeare's Richard the > Third and their myriad spinoffs, including Johnny Rotten copying Laurence > Olivier's Richard in the film version for his creation of the character a= nd > existence as a performer on stage of--Johnny Rotten, who in his turn is > ranting and attacking the Queen. > > This theatricality of a writing which makes use of appropriations and > translations (including invented ones) means that the "author" does not > "die" but instead becomes an actor, in which the presence of other voices > begins to issue through the throat and the writing of "some one else" to > come from the hands. The actor whom is the role that the writer has > become, speaks lines which are--whose?--The writer's? the actor's? the > role's? And out of these emerges a writing which is a fiction which is a= t > the same time real, or a reality which is fictional, and al the while is > performing an activity which is a writing, a gestural, visceral, sonic an= d > visual action writing which may in fact exist "nowhere at all" but as the > non-writings of a non-writer who regards thinking and writing as the same= , > just as imagined writing may exist in a sphere in which it has no need of > being "written down," as it enjoys in fact the freedom of it's not existi= ng > on the page, but in the "else wheres.". > > When Bartleby says "I would prefer not to" and instead stands staring at > the > blank view through his window of a very close pressed wall of the buildin= g > opposite--is it into these elsewheres that his writing now is being done? > > So it is that a personage like my "El Colonel" and Spicer's Lorca, and > Yasusada's Spicer as well as the Yasusada created by the reader out of th= e > accoutrements that are provided for the acting out of the role--so it is > that these "non-existent" writers mingle with actual writers who are > actually dead, in a theater in which ghosts are lovers and fictional > non-ghosts consort with ghosts and the action of the writing is THE LIVIN= G > of that being that one is to think of as either "the author" or "the deat= h > of the author author." For it is not death, but dispersal across, throug= h, > within, and away from writing itself that is the action of the being > formerly known as "the author." > > Writing has lives of its own in which the writer may find encounters with > it, that outside which now and then bumps into him or her, and then, afte= r > a > bit, takes off again. Or an outside which is found, hidden in plain > site/sight/cite all around one, that writing which is continually alive a= nd > changing, moving, at once fugitive and glimpsed by, as Robert Smithson > calls > it, "the artist's glance," which can be a work as real as any object, yet > not exist except in the time and the "art of looking" of the artist. For > once it becomes an object, then the artist is "signing over" the time and > art of looking as a possesion in which someone else "owns the art" and in= a > subtle or not so subtle way, also "owns the artist." > > The real death of the author may then be the sense that exists at present > of > the author, a being tied down by legal contracts to a name, an identity > card > number, an address, a telephone, a place and status within such and such > community of other authors. > > It is this death which a writer may well choose to "prefer not to" be par= t > of, and so find in a "fugitive" existence the ever chaning words and line= s > of a lexicon which cannot be fixed, nor colonized, nor turned into yet > another copyrighted name plated representation of themselves, all ready t= o > charge off to court to protect a name attached to a function which they m= ay > at the same time profess to desire the death of. > > President Reagan, the Great Communicator, was in his own way an > interesting example of a collector of quotations with an ear and eye to > creating his own form of "ideal language," one which has proved to be one > of > the most radical in its effects of modern times. Reagan loved quotation= s, > and his bedside reading consisted of a single colossal tome of nothing bu= t > quotations, organized for use on any occasion imaginable and many , one > imagines, not yet imagined, but that one should be prepared for, after al= l, > as The Great Communicator. > > Having been an actor, a president of the Screen Actors Guild, and a long > time pitchman for Westinghouse and GE, as well as a radio announcer and t= v > celebrity both as actor and advertiser, Reagan had no problem at all > memorizing hunks of quotations, plagiarized and appropriated lines and bi= ts > of speeches, and "was never at a loss for words," a favorite technique > being to tell some ancient joke or story "as though for the first time," = so > that it's being a quotation was not even noticed. In this way, he appeare= d > to be an alert and quick-on-his-feet-thinker though in fact he was just > pulling rabbits out of his well stocked hat. > > Reagan's cheerful attitude to taking away the meanings of lines and > replacing them with the same words, only now heard as his own, reached a > moment of triumph in his appropriating the anti-Vietnam War song "Born in > the USA' as his own campaign song in 1984. Suddenly, the verses > disappeared > and all one really heard were those endlessly repeated choruses of "Born = in > the USA, Born in the USA" as though that was all that mattered. And in > cynical way, he was right--after all the song was made for a movie and > appeared long after the actual War, so how it could literally be "an > anti-Vietnam War song?" Reagan's appropriation in a sense exposed the > song's appropriation of the emotions of another time and another person, > and > so the Reagan version had as much "validity" as the original did. And, it > being a song for a movie, who better to make use of it than an old movie > actor, one who had actually appeared in war movies, if not the actual war= , > unlike the song's author, who had done neither. > > And Reagan even quoted in Russian, with translation--the famous "trust bu= t > verify" "Russian proverb" he had learned from his buddy "Mr. Gorbachev." > At > one point, in a pure unadulterated paroxysm of patriotism, he forgot > himself > and recounted his "war memories"--actually scenes from a war film he had > played in. In a sense, to show the "reality" of his emotions, he was > "quoting from memory" a "real war scene" in which he had acted competentl= y > enough to convince himself that he had actually been in the war. In this > way, quoting from his roles allowed him to create a non-existent biograp= hy > which al the same was "documented on celluloid," that could be edited in= to > various versions of his official "biopic." > > In Poe's brief "sketch" written to accompany an illustrated plate, entitl= ed > "Morning on the Wissahicon," (a forerunner of Reagan's "New Morning in > America" as already a "Mourning on the Wissihicon)--a traveller takes a > jaunt down the Wissihicaon and discovers unexpectedly, so close to the > metropolis of Philadelphia, a wild and savage remnant of an America alrea= dy > thought to be long past, and but the figments and shards of a former drea= m. > He sees an Indian in a wild overgrowth of unspoiled natural landscape, an= d > as he drifts by the dramatic scene, there even appears a a magnificent an= d > authentic American deer--a sort of proto--"Deer Hunter" moment in which t= he > marvelling traveler is confirmed in his belief that at last he has found > the > old, the real America, of the wilderness and "savages," and the untamed > wild > life and untrimmed flora of his "native land." > Yet, the traveller later learns, all of this has been an elaborate > and beautifully staged simulacra, for a wealthy Englishman has purchased > the > former Colonial landscape, and populated it with a servant dressed and ma= de > up as an Indian, let the flora go carelessly to seed, and provide the who= le > as a topping to the cake, a domesticated deer who is able to pose as a wi= ld > one for the passersby of a Sunday. Already a "quotation" of what had bee= n > a > stock vision of the "old America" in all its "savage splendour" has > replaced > the original with a copy which "outshines" as it were not only the long > vanished original, but has also made, on is certain, the old real estate > greatly increase in value by looking so like what it had replaced in term= s > of what had been thought to be along lost memory with a Brand new and viv= id > recreation posing as indeed "the reality of today." > > Poe's Englishman thus has accomplished already the creating of an > "ideal language and landscape" made entirely of quotations, and for Poe, > the > "mourning" in this "morning" is that the morning is in a sense not yet ov= er > with and it has already been replaced by a quotation of itself, which wil= l > "outlive" the former and so in a sense give cause, if one recalls it at > all, > a "mourning" for the "morning on the Wissihicon which now no longer exist= s > except as indeed an ideal language and landscape "in quotation." > > The further "mourning" is that the English, who had been the former and f= or > a while defeated Colonial Power, have now wrested away what had been know= n > of as an "American original" and turned it into an English owned and > recolonized landscape preserved as a copy of the vanished original. > > At the time that Poe began writing, ruins were all the rage, due in good > part to Gothic and Romantic literature from Europe--the kind of literatur= e > and ruins Benjamin was later to write his now famous unpublished thesis o= n. > Americans were in a state of anxiety, as their country seemingly had > produced no "real ruins." Poe--who had attended school five years abroad > in > Scotland--had seen "real ruins" and as he replied to one critic who accus= ed > him of writing in the manner of the Germans of the time--"Terror is not o= f > Germany, but of the soul." Having witnessed the decomposition and descen= t > into ruins via disease of his dying mother, dying older brother and then > dying wife, Poe realized that the the lack of "real ruins" are, like > Emerson's Nature--"the blank and ruin we see in Nature is within our > eye"--is not a lack at all but instead the blindness to what is in front = of > one--the decomposition and decay at the core of being, no matter how "new= ." > > > In his "Philosophy of Composition," Poe constructs an impeccably rational > method by which he has gone about composing his poem "The Raven." No > "romantic ruins" or frenzy inspired him, no "inspiration," but, instead, = a > kind of calculating feat of engineering brought to bear on the > decomposition > of the very thing that has constructed the poem--the rational, the logica= l, > the "constructive" mind. The use of quotation passes from humans to a > bird--"quoth the Raven, 'Nevermore.'" The bird may even be a copy of a > bird, a mechanical bird whose cries are repeated by virtue of a timing > mechanism triggered by the last lines of the verse preceding its next > outburst. Or they may indeed be those of a "real bird," "quoting" > "nevermore," a phrase which plunges the student in the poem into one of > those ever deepening and decomposing morasses of the soul which Poe depic= ts > also in the guise of decomposing bodies and languages also, which devolv= e > into black birds' cries (perhaps "quothing the Raven" itself--??!!) as i= n > The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym. > > Poe, with his rationally constructed tales in which decomposition and > irrationality begin to "take over" and Burroughs with his fugitive > languages > whose words change their meanings frequently not only in time--from week = to > week or day to day if need be-- but also vary from place to place along t= he > trail of the outlaw addict, evidence a yearning for a language which will > elude the colonization process of appropriation and quotation. For > Dubuffet, the "way out" of this nightmare in the "asphyxiating culture" o= f > the art world was Art Brut as he originally found it and conceived of > it--that is, Dubuffet recognized its existence there, well having the > honesty himself as an artist to know that he himself might learn from the= se > "Raw" artists while not being one himself. > > That is, not that there will be an "authorial self" who is "original" but > that there may exist "languages" and realms of" communications" in and > among and through which the possibility of a continually "living" yet > "invisible" writing is "on the move," while behind it are the deposits of > its shed skins, its discarded, outdated notations, to be picked up on as > "news" and "clues" so as to distract and confuse those would-be > appropriators and translators of a writing which does not want to be read= , > and so creates "fakes" of its non-self in order to provide "cover" for it= s > ever elusive voyages, fictions to amuse itself as it observes the futile > hunters continually be led round and round in circles, deciphering > non-signs > as signs and elaborate scrawls as "lucid notations" of a "lost language" = or > of a "new language" which they alone will become the possessors of the > secrets of, the sole appropriators and translators of, the alpha and omeg= a > of a literature which now is thought to "belong to history and > civilization" > and which instead is simply an empty wooden horse, a decoy duck, while > somewhere, elsewhere, the writing leads lives of its own. > > (Note: I just found Wyston Curnow's question re a genealogy of the > appropriation use of today-- > > the issue of appropriation, as noted, begins to change with the > introduction > and spread of copyright laws, as with the acceleration of the production > of > copies in themselves-- > Benjamin formulates his questions re "The Work of Art in the Age of > Mechanical Reproduction" close to a hundred years after Poe has begun > doing > so. Hawthorne, writing in the 1840's roughly, in The House of Seven > Gables, > already has as a major figure a Daguerreotypist who provides, along with > the > narrator, commentaries on the art of the photograph in comparison with th= at > of painting--that is, in terms of their status as not solely copies of > persons and scenes, but also as methods directed towards revealing what i= s > otherwise hidden to the eye of an observer. The "composition" of a > daguerreotype then, becomes a form of decomposition of not only a painted > image, but as well of the "image of the person" themselves--"revealing" > aspects hidden not only to others but also perhaps to themselves. As a > "reversed mirror image" in a sense, it gives an oddly "corrected" image o= f > that image which one had previously supposed one was seeing as others do. > > The very decomposition of the House itself becomes as it were a method of > "letting in more light" via the cracked and fissured surfaces, which is t= he > "pencil of light" with which the camera writes into existence a new metho= d > of representing things not only singly, but serially, or, as in the famou= s > mirror scenes in Citizen Kane and The Lady from Shanghai--an endless seri= es > of mirrorings of the self trapped in the light of the moment which is > turning it into the past as the figure moves before the --and into--the > hall > of mirrors. > > One might begin with an examination of many of the texts of the "Classic > American Literature" (D.H Lawrence) as the first literature to in a sense > compose via decomposition and in so doing decompose the "future" of its o= wn > literature before it has happened. (Rather than being a deconstruction > avant la lettre, as Poe's work has furnished examinations for, it is a > decomposition of the work of time on things before they have begun to > exist.) > > One finds that already a century and a half ago and more, there already > exist in this Classic Literature the contemporary the issues of copying, > appropriation, translations, quotations, cataloging, "secret messages," > "messages in code," the examination of handwriting itself as a method of > literary "criticism," the centrality of the role of death, the appearance > of > "intelligent machines" and "psychic communications" as a form of scientif= ic > possibility--the ghostly, the after-effects existences, of unknown writin= gs > and languages which haunt the forests and wildernesses, and as well are > still living among them in many vast areas, the complimentary American > forms > of Gigantism (Walt Whitman, Paul Bunyan, Earthworks) and the Minimalist > (Emily Dickinson)--as well as the use throughout American popular art of > the > copy of an object to represent the trade or concept for which the object'= s > copy is supposed to stand. (The vast and eccentric systems of signs used > in > the US a hundred fifty years ago are basically the creation of a three > dimensional sculptural-visual poetry of incredible variety and ingenuity. > In a sense, it is a writing for persons who may not actually know how to > read--in any language--or simply in English--) > > One of the aspects of this writing is that it in ways is more related to > Art > Brut and Burroughs' fugitive languages, than to to the more confining and > constrained of the commonly in use American examples of today, as it sees > and makes use of everything as writing. This is neither "the world as > text" > nor "the text as world" or today's rather fundamentalist and curiously > Puritan conception of a "material word" on the page, with the attendant > "sacredness of the book, the text," but something blasphemous (Melville t= o > Hawthorne, on completing Moby Dick: "I have written a wicked book and a= m > as clean as the Lamb")- --that is, that the world is alive with writings > which are moving and changing at every moment, and themselves exist on > living beings as well as on insentient "materials." (Melville also write= s > to Hawthorne, that the very hand which lifts now the pen that it has just > written with, is not the same hand that just formed the last completed > letter of script, and will not be the same as the one that writes the > next--) > > Tattoos, scrimshaw, the Scarlet Letter, the letters of the words of an > unknown language carved into the black rock of an island, (in Pym; Rober= t > Smithson wrote of these as "perfect proto Earthwords" for a new art > criticism")--the disappearing inks and concealed treasure maps, the Goldb= ug > and its revelations--as well as the "readings" of Nature by Thoreau and > Emerson, and the observations as signs in turn of the "Leaves of Grass" > which are the tongues of the sleepers below ground, and, beyond that, "th= e > untold, the unwritten war" that "Will Never Be Written in the Books" of > Whitman's "Specimen Days, or the insects and flowers in Emily Dickinson > which form the kind of private language which she uses to "but cross the > room and be in the Spice Islands" (the continual voyage theme)--all of > these > are writings which extend writing far beyond the "normaliiizing" > conventions > of the limits of the page-- > > This vision of a language which is continually in movement, continually > changing, concealing itself, reappearing, being thrown overboard, or > bobbing > about as the carved coffin bearing the absent Queequeg's script and the > sole > survivor and author to be of the tale of the late Pequod--is itself from= a > period in which the American language was in flux, not yet standardized > and > fixed into the defined and set stone of Webster's. A chaos in spelling, > punctuation and grammar was perfectly acceptable, as were the wildly > varying > degrees of abilities of readers to decipher the riot of signs and symbols > running amok all around them, and so was a sense of writing as something > alive and and unfixed, nomadic and tending, like Art Brut and the addict'= s > fugitive Jargons, towards an anarchy and "Civil Disobedience" which have > become increasingly tamed, toned down and timid. > > For example, consider that today, a work of appropriation in a conceptual > sense is proffered as that of "unoriginality, copying" and the "author" > thus > no longer "exists" except as a functionary, a filer of data, a sorter of > files. This is precisely the work which Bartleby is assigned to, and whi= ch > he one day simply decides that he would "prefer not to" do anymore. > > Bartleby's act of Disobedience he pays for by being incarcerated in the > tombs, there to die, refusing all the while to acept anything offered out > of > a sense of obligation by the employer who had put him there in the first > place, as a last resort against homelessness. > > In a peculiar way, may one not say that Bartleby is a kind of "political > prisoner," (civil disobediance since 9/11 carrying much heavier potential > penalties) in the sense that he will no longer carry out the contemporar= y > (today's) idea of what it means to be an author-cum-death-of-the-author? > Instead, he would "prefer not to" be a writer who writes as the death of > the > author as it exists in the conceptual formulation of copyist and filer, > even > if rejecting this method of writing-as-the-death-of-the-author means the > loss of his freedom, and following that, of his life. > > In short, Bartleby would "prefer not to" BE a "death-of-the-author-author= " > but instead simply to die. > > here are some examples of a few of the possiblities themselves so myriad > and > ever expanding of the little i suggest in the above > > > Conceptual Poetry and its Others > UA Poetry Center > May 29-31, 2008 > David-Baptiste Chirot< > http://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com/2008/05/conceptual-poetry-and-its= -others.html > > > > David-Baptiste Chirot: "Waterboarding & > Poetry" > Wordforword #13 Spring 2008 > (also has Visual Poetry by chirot) > Poems from Guant=E1namo > The Detainees Speak > David Baptite Chirot >* > No* > KAURAB Translation Site > > David-Baptiste Chirot > *El Colonel's Composition Book* > > http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2008/10/david-baptiste-chirot-el-colonels= .html > > 20080530 David-Baptiste Chirot > > http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2008/05/david-baptiste-chirot-el-colonel-= wakes.html > > *El Colonel wakes up from dreaming* > > 1. [PDF< > http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=3DA0oGkjhGqwxJKXIB.2NXNyoA;_ylu=3DX3oDMTByZWgwN= 285BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkAw--/SIG=3D11rat3ean/EXP=3D122565344= 6/**http%3a//www.dusie.org/ElColonelsmile.pdf > > > ] developing poetic ideas > 3647k - Adobe PDF - View as > html< > http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=3DA0oGkjhGqwxJKXIB_GNXNyoA/SIG=3D16nm69t56/EXP= =3D1225653446/**http%3a//66.218.69.11/search/cache%3fei=3DUTF-8%26p=3Del%2b= colonel%2bsmiles%26fr=3Dytff1-divx%26u=3Dwww.dusie.org/ElColonelsmile.pdf%2= 6w=3Del%2bcolonel%2bcolonels%2bsmiles%26d=3DXMYTYULURrCT%26icp=3D1%26.intl= =3Dus > > > *El* *Colonel* *Smiles*. For Roberto Bolano *...* *El* *Colonel* > *smiles*. > Pleasure birds fly in exotic jungles, among tableaux of hacked and *...= * > www.*dusie.org*/ElColonelsmile.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:57 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat >wrote: > > > Walter Benjamin's *The Arcades Project* and Montaigne's *Essays* are > > masterpieces made mostly of quotations, the writer's own thoughts weavi= ng > > around them. > > > > Translation, if properly understood as the creation of parallel > meta-texts > > rather than as copies, is a genre of appropriation. W. Benjamin's "idea= l > > language" -which is his concept of what translation involves- is > > essentially a hypertext composed entirely of appropriated texts. > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 09:16:47 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: eric unger Subject: poetry & prints #3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline POETRY READING at SPUDNIK PRESS ***new location*** 1821 W Hubbard, Suite 308, Chicago, IL 60622 POETRY & PRINTS #3 Saturday, Nov. 15th 8pm FREE; Poetry collections & broadsides will be available to help support the artists. Poetry and Prints is an ongoing collaboration between Spudnik Press and House Press. It is a series of approachable, unpretentious, and progressive poetry readings combined with visual art and live music in a way that cultivates interesting and meaningful interactions among artists working in different disciplines, and our community. Hot Whiskey Press was a contributor in the past, but recently relocated to Prague. Poets: Melissa Severin, Chicago, IL Roberto Harrison, Milwaukee, WI Aaron Lowinger, Buffalo, NY Music: The Scott Tuma and Mike Weis Duo Prints: "Not Recent Work", by Angee Lennard, Director of Spudnik Press. Angee will be going to go out on a limb and showing her own work. She'll be putting together an installation of older projects as a stepping stone to creating some new work. Melissa Severin earned her MFA in Poetry from New England College and is managing editor for Switchback Books. Her poems are forthcoming or have appeared in Moonlit, The Cultural Society, Ectoplasmic Necropolis, and Sawbuck. Brute Fact, her first chapbook, is available from dancing girl press. Roberto Harrison's most recent publications include Counter Daemons (Litmus, 2006), Os (subpress, 2006), and Elemental Song (Answer Tag Home Press, 2006). He edits Crayon with Andrew Levy, and the Bronze Skull Press chapbook series. He lives in Milwaukee, where he hosts the Enemy Rumor reading series. A collection of his journal entries and drawings, Ineffable Isthmus, was shown at Woodland Pattern in the winter of 2007/2008. "All poetics is local," writes Michael Kelleher in response to Aaron Lowinger's Front Park poems. From Buffalo's Psych Ward Flats he writes at the ecstasy of despair and the irony of joy. Recent author of chapbook Open Night Poems, about which Michael Basinski exclaims "The poet is in love and singing it poetry and finds all the silly and stupid and mundane things terrific! And finds all the important and special unique love things terrific! And terrific they are and the mind wanderings and celebration of imagination terrific and taxi cabs! And corn! And etc. of the city and as Bard of Buffalo!!" -- http://www.spudnikpress.com http://housepress.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 13:46:43 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mathias Svalina Subject: Announcing the First Issue of The Home Video Review of Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The Home Video Review of Books Volume 1, Issue 1 www.thehomevideoreviewofbooks.blogspot.com In this Issue: Reviews of: Kristi Maxwell's Realm Sixty-Four Eugene Ostashevsky's The Life and Opinions of DJ Spinoza Alex Lemon's Hallelujah Blackout Abraham Smith's Whim Man Mammon Anselm Berrigan's Have a Good One Selah Saterstrom's The Meat and Spirit Plan Jay Wright's Polynomials and Pollen Danielle Pafunda's My Zorba Tisa Bryant's Unexplained Presence K. Silem Mohammad's Breathalyzer Jasper Bernes' Starsdown Rauan Klassnik's Holy Land Editors: Julia Cohen & Mathias Svalina Staff Reviewers: Stephanie Sherman, Ken Rumble, Jon Pack, Jayna Maleri The Home Video Review of Books ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 12:42:56 -0800 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0811011048v7479a20x9d778d37bc618d03@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii approproprian/ provocative within > the capitalist > definition of appropriation as though someone owns the means of production -- interesting/ confusing... --- On Sat, 11/1/08, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat the capitalist > definition of appropriation as ownership; but, nn@GMAIL.COM> > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Saturday, November 1, 2008, 1:48 PM > Wystan, > > For Petrarch, who might be considered the inventor of > modernism, I am > paraphrasing, desire for fame is the last infirmity of the > poetic mind. What > is fame but an anticipation of the idea of property > residing in a single > individual. The implication is that the poet owns his (in > Pertrarch's time a > man) poem. > > When I am defending the idea of a poem belonging, through > , to > a whole community, I may be critical or > simultaneously, I am pointing > that the other meaning of appropriation -which completely > negates the > "contemporary" one- has been the practice > geographically much more wide and > historically for a much longer period of time. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 8:01 AM, Wystan Curnow > wrote: > > > Murat, Tom, Barry, David, > > As we are seeing > "appropriation"'s precursors are varied > > and commonplace, to the extent that > > the term itself appears reductive--Chaucer's only > 'a great appropriator' if > > his practice is presumed to be informed by a modern > idea (and its attention > > laws and prohibitions)of authorship. > > I am more interested in the varieties > of contemporary > > 'appropriation' --it seems such a dumbly > provocative term, so post-modern > > fer crissakes--which is the way Murat's remarks > about recent 'attacks on > > authorship and orginality' are pointed. The value > of a geneology of > > appropriation, or a pre-history of authorship seems to > be that it may help > > generate a typology of current practices and > possibilities in which re-use, > > refried, is understood as more like the norm than the > exception. > > Wystan > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) > [POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of > > Murat Nemet-Nejat [muratnn@GMAIL.COM] > > Sent: Saturday, 1 November 2008 8:44 a.m. > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > > > > Tom, Barry, David, > > > > Appropriation is the basic Medieval mode of writing, > either, as Barry says, > > citation being the prevalent trope of writing or as > outright appropriation. > > Chaucer is the great appropriator in English > literature. Troylus and > > Cresyda > > is for all purposes, with some changes, of > Boccaccio's Philostrato, without > > Chaucer ackknowledging it as such. This does not mean > that he was being > > dishonest or propagating a hoax, simply that that was > a natural Medieval > > writing process. A number of Chaucer's earlier > works (the titles escape me > > now) start with a dream passage, introducing or > framing the narrative which > > will follow. This was a common Medieval trope. A > number of times, Chaucer > > lifts his dream passages from French examples. > > > > To understand the process better, it might be helpful > to look at Medieval > > Cathedrals, masterpieces with no named architects. The > whole construct is > > seen as a communal activity, something beyond the > individual or authorship. > > The same ethos, an ethos of poetics, applies to > writing also. Ruskin > > understood this. I think it is the source of his > modernity. When David, > > Kent > > Johnson, myself and a few others, in various ways, > attack the notion of > > originality or authorship, elevating the editor, the > translator, the > > anthologist, the creator of hoaxes, the heteronymous > author, the hypertext > > to a central position, replacing these tropes for the > figure of the "poet," > > they are actually trying to go back to the same > Medieval view of authorship > > and creation. Recently, Jerome Rothenberg and I had a > conversation where we > > discussed the concept of the anthology being the ideal > form of a sacred > > text. That discusion also, I believe, were along the > same lines. > > > > Though in the 17th century the idea of the individual > author was already > > present, one can see in certain authors the earlier > prominence of citation > > still in full swing. One can cite three works along > these lines where > > appropriations are integral to the text: Burton's > *The Anatomy of > > Melancholy > > *, Browne's "Urn Buryals," > Montaigne's *Essays*. > > > > If I remember correctly, Swift's *The Tale of the > Tub* parodies the same > > style of appropriation in its person; nevertheless, in > this parody the > > earlier style is still in full force. In English > Literature, I think > > Johnson > > and Pope give a "temporarily fatal blow" to > the process mocking its > > rube-like primitiveness (even Shakespeare could not > escape the opprobrium) > > and elevating originality to a poetic ideal. > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:00 AM, Tom Orange > wrote: > > > > > hi all, > > > > > > catherine daly and mark weiss were looking for > some clarification on > > > my question regarding a possible genealogy or > history of appropriative > > > writing. first off, and thanks to those who > provided 20th-century > > > examples but yes i'm really looking for > precedents prior to dada and > > > high modernism. > > > > > > as far as defining terms, i really do have in > mind mostly what mark > > > says, substantive if not wholesale incorporation > of an other('s) text, > > > however identified or not, into one's own. so > i'm less interested in, > > > say, the rhapsode as song-stitcher of a > people's tales; or as dave > > > chirot points to among his many great > suggestions, the renaissance > > > notion of imitation or authority through citation > of others rather > > > than through originality; or citation as example, > through which, as > > > dave points out, many pre-socratic, sapphic etc > fragments found their > > > sole survival; or translation, which still in > most cases wants to > > > preserve and remain faithful to the original > author's intent... > > > > > > and so as to catherine's "appropriation > how/why," precisely. i'm > > > looking to a genealogy of appropriative poetics > in part to > > > differentiate poets' means, intents, motives > etc for doing so in the > > > first place. so for example, 1) tzara says make a > dada poem by tearing > > > up a newspaper and arranging the strips > you've pulled from a hat; 2) > > > pound, reznikoff, rukeyser pull documents from > the historical and > > > legal records to include in their poems; 3) cage > reads thru joyce, > > > thoreau, etc and creates mesostics from their > words. clearly in each > > > case the authors have different motivations for > these appropriative > > > acts and i'd like to try to map out the > field, including precedents > > > for this kind of activity. > > > > > > additional suggestions and discussion welcome... > > > > > > thanks, > > > tom orange > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not > accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept > all posts. Check guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept > all posts. Check guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all > posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 14:10:38 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0811012256w73ece3bdy661f5107f784e5ea@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Murat-- Many thanks for your response. First-- Spicer's work, like a series i've done--is "After"--which is to say--not a translation. I do not know really, but as far as I am aware, the Spicer "After Lorca" aren't translations at all, nor are my "After Rimbaud's Illuminations"-- nor would be Yasusada's "After Spicer"-- they are works which are inspired by aspects of the originals, with which one lives intensely for a period of time, whether themselves (originals) as in fact already translations, or one's own readings in the originals, without having the desire to translate them, but rather use them as a means to show one's love, respect, thanks, to the other poet, and at the same time, launch what one has been inspired by into the trajectories of one's own work, life, spirit etc-- I agree with you about the form of translation which Benjamin writes of. M= y point is that in thing as complex and myriad faceted--or hydra headed!--as translation and appropriation, rather than decide on solely one approach at the expense of investigating several or many as possible of the others, is to in a sense make too narrow an aperture for, my one so put it, "Illumination." Translations can lie as easily as any other form of writing--a translator knows the correct meaning, and, not liking it, as it does not fit in with the "message"which the translator wants the text to bear--ignores that and instead chooses another word, set of words, phrases, etc--and so alters completely the meaning of the original. As in the kinds of commentaries and reserachs to which Barry alluded, i've spent eons digging about in various series of translations, footnotes, commentaries, old dictionaries and so forth, on the trail of finding out no= t so much what actually is or is not the "original" meaning --of a poem, word= , sign--but to have better understanding, still all too small a one, of how through time and across various manipulations, revisions, commentaries, controversies and theses, a poem, a line, a word may have been treated or mis- or dis-treated---via translation. A great deal of the "information" that is transmitted around the world is made up of deliberately dis-translated texts, speeches, sound bytes--in order to foment strife, or to promote various forms of insidious illusions in order to create fear and hate. The same may easily be done with appropriation--in my first letter i put forth some of the uncountable reasons that are positive and why i use such methods myself and study the works of others who do. A very good way to study appropriation and also various methods of translation is via collage, forms of montage as serial panels (which in painting is very ancient method)--and also simply collecting the things one finds on a walk and making an arrangement of more of these. Immediately one sees how much may be changed, and so radically, by a few simple shifts in the order of things, or which elements are contingent to others, which dropped out, which cropped and so on-- Using not all that many images and torn fotos, words, letters, one may create a series which is a form of cinema-- or, on a single page, may take the form of a one page movie--a simultaneously presented series which one "sees" and "reads" not linearly, but as a series of linked associations, leaps and intuitions. The reason that being aware of as many ways as one can of how these methods are used is that they do not apply "simply to art and poetry," but as well to the way in which the world one lives in is constructed. The "reality" one is offered via texts, screens, sound, images, video,film, signs on the street, is already a series on a gigantic scale of cut-ups, edits, montages= , collages, dis and regular translations, faked and real events and texts, images and runaway hearsay and rumor spread at instant speeds across the world, involving in next to no time at all millions of people. At every step of the way one is "hailed," to use Althusser's term--(and quite literally on our street where step someone is hailing you--with dope or sex,or a person'd sure could use a smoke or some change or simply to tell you about the demons that are possessing them--or the Lord--or ghosts--or the Blues-- As a writer, "intrepid reporter," painter, collage maker-for me---all these are elements, materials, and they arrive continually. Among the aspects which are endlessly interesting are the ways in which words are used to mak= e use of other people--and at the same time have them think that this is not so. Of course, in listening and paying attention, one oneself is making us= e of whatever comes along! To me what are ceaselessly amazing are the paradoxes of events, words, signs, images--how if one looks and listens fro= m one vantage, things appear to be one way--and then to shift the head slightly to the left--and see and hear how things then appear and are heard= . And to continue doing so--toh get a smal sense of how much can be chnaged b= y just the smallest shifts-- Why is it that there must be one single way to view things? From each person one may hear or not a differing reason why they have chosen to believe in one particular way as opposed to or another. This happens with oneself--one begins to find out how many things one had taken as truths which are and were not so at all. And if one sought the reason why at som= e point one had taken them to be so--all too often it turned out to be something far more arbitrary than expected! A lot of the time one is basically unlearning a great deal of the nonsense one has in one's head. Now, if one begins with a certain idea in mind of a doctrine of the methods one is using--then one may develop a blind spot to those things which do no= t fit the pattern, nor "back up" one's point of view, which is to be as faithful as possible to the methodology which one believes in. it is mysterious beyond measure how many things that people criticize fiction readers for--the willing suspension of disbelief--they themselves accept without question from so and so or such and such, as though coming from them it must be true. In a sense, this method of beginning from the point of view of one doctrine only is a way to predetermine an outcome of the direction in which one is going with what one is working with. One arrives where one expected, and s= o this proves that if one sets others out on this way they also will. According to so and so who first perfected the method, of course. The problem is some people are not that good at following directions and others could care less and improvise along the way and others still yet violently oppose so and so who drew up the map. This is why one finds the endless series of commentaries and footnotes, disputes and controversies--al those supplemental elements which multiply the one orginal point of view--via all sorts of mistakes, miscues, missed turns and out right oppostion. This is still the approach of a kind of single-subject author. Why not, then, begin instead from a non-doctrine or methodology and simply begin to examine in different modes of writing and in the voices and images of differeing beings within or that one knows via observation--and so to trave= l into this other way--unknown as yet--to see where it may be going? One may improvise, act the part--use whatever way one likes-- In a way, over the letters i've written here, one may see that several series of points of view appear--and several voices enter in--in order to keep the way open, the movement continuing-- If one is not "one author"--but many, and none of them necessarily stable, fixed, either, but each one having themselves many within them-- Many things one may never have imagined, nor been able to express as well a= t all as this found article one could never have imagined-- these found things--words, images, articles, clips--which one appropriates--to stand fo= r themselves--in this flow of voices, writings--images-- open to things again that are uncanny--perhaps familiar and at the same tim= e unknown--or perhaps entirely new, though with stil some odd hint of a previous non encounter deja vu occurring in the background, like the hummin= g of a fly in a room on the other side of a screen with holes torn in it-- At one moment to be a Benjaminian translator, at the next to say one is an agent of some agency, MEMRI, or the like , which is going to set about dis-translating the same piece of writing. After all, mutiny may occur aboard the ship--and the captain be overthrown--and so another method introduced--piratical--or peaceful--or simply partying-- Appropriation does not only have to do with the taking of land, of possessions, of ideas, of a culture--but also of the soul of a being--"possession" is not only 9 tenths of the law--but a form of "spiritual possession"--to seize upon the spirit of a being and suck it out--to take a foto and steal it--or like my Mohawk in-law, to know the if one heard her voice on the phone, that meant the person who was not there listening would be a spirit stealing her soul--so never to use the telephone--or have a foto taken--or sign any documents-- this is the fugitive aspect of words which change continually that Burrough= s writes or, or the element of Art Brut so admired by Dubuffet--that Smithson writes of with "an artist's glance"--being able to make a work which is not an object to be possessed-- There are elements and aspects of writing, of "art" that do not want to be known, don't care to be--possessed--do not want to be named-- And yet to exist-- to have lives of their own outside -- so many lives lived in an instant and one is forced into a strait jacket of words-- to have a freedom of that life's own-- without anyone or anything "liberating " it-- Sometimes it is not that one "misread" something--but that one read it all too well-- (and perhaps wants or wanted no part of it--) actaully here ia little parable that is interesting: i read of a baseball player who early in the season was traded from one tea= m to another, "for a player to be named later." eventually, "later" came, nearing the trading deadline late in the season-- and who would be sent to the other team as the player to be named later-- why, none other than the same player who had been traded away! the only time in baseball history that a trade indisputably worked out to being "equal" for the team making the trade- an interesting event--to be traded for oneself! as yogi berra, the great hall of fame catcher, 3 time MVP, former yankee manager and famous American improvisationsalist on the mother tongue told the graduating class of a college in his native new jersey-- when you come to a fork in the road--take it! which is what one essays to do in examing these questions-- take care at the fork in the road and the fork in the tongue! and listen closely and learn-- On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote= : > David, > > Just a quick response to your post before I read it more carefully and > comment on it in greater detail later: > I understand very well your seeing the possibility of exploitation within > the idea of appropriation. There is no question historically that has > happened often enough, erasing the "original" in the process. > > I am referring to something quite different. Do not forget that in his > matrix of "translation" and "ideal language" Benjamin sees translation as= a > "loose gown" or a collection of shards/fragments. Dissolution, particular= ly > of a close system, is at the heart of his concept of tramnslation. In > *After > Lorca* Spicer picks that aspect of Benjamin's thought. (I have an essay > exactly on that relation between Benjamin and Spicer that can be found on > line in Lucas's Cypherjournal website. > > On the other hand, I do believe that every translation, in my sense of th= e > word, starts with a "misreading" which cracks open the original by > fragmenting it. The target language also must "misread" itself cracking > itself open. This way both languages undergo transformations, creating a > synthesis by joining in the space of ideal language, > > What translation does is to explore, crack open *latent* possibilities in > both languages which the close system of each suppresses. Translation > becomes a linguistic act of liberation. Here is the translation paradox: = a > translation misreads, but must/can never lie about the original. > Misreadings > will only reveal, liberate what is inherent in them. That is how they > become > the very reverse of exploitation. > > "Translation is foreignness in a language bending to contain its weight." > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:11 PM, David Chirot > wrote: > > > In a note regarding the appended glossary at the book's end, William S > > Burroughs in his Introduction to Junkie (1953) writes: "A final > glossary, > > therefore, may not be made of words whose intentions are fugitive." > > > > One aspect of both translation and appropriation is precisely that what > is > > done with the original text is NOT to copy, as Murat notes, but indeed = to > > create meta-narratives of and/or with/for them, and not necessarily > > parallel > > ones, either. > > > > This last point, for me at any rate, is important to keep in mind, for = in > > examing the questions of translations and appropriations, one needs to > > remain aware of the possiblities for these to be used in ways which, > while > > being "camouflaged" perhaps as "artistic," may instead be directed in > more > > sinister directions. As usual, there are a good many more than "two > sides > > to a story," and it is in fact this very potentiality, these many > > possiblities, and the uncertainty principle in regards to which are bei= ng > > activated--that makes the activity of working with as well as studying > such > > materials a more complex and subtly varieagted one than may at first be > > supposed. > > > > For example, in referring to Walter Benjamin and his "Arcades Project," > > Murat notes Benjamin's envisioning a work made entirely of quotations, > > which > > would be an aspect of the philosopher's conception of an "ideal > language." > > > > To open some of the myraid possiblities in any given moment in the > act/work > > of apprropriation and/or translation, let's use for a few moments the > point > > of view of Burroughs' words whose intentions are fugitive. > > > > The figure of "Benjamin's Baudelaire," which has become a more familiar > and > > preferred "Baudelaire" for many English speaking readers than the actua= l > > (so > > to speak) Baudelaire and his actual works, is a "living example" of thi= s > > form of "ideal language" functioning in the direction of a totalizing > > system, in which the "colonization" of the past is carried out in order > to > > draw from it the indications of the immediate or eventual triumph of th= e > > translator/appropriator's ideology/theology/theory of preference. That > is, > > one amasses and arranges the objects and quotations of the past in such= a > > way as to become the accurate predictors of a future envisioned via rea= r > > projection and reverse engineering. Thus, perhaps, a new form of > astrology > > may be created as well as "theses on history." > > > > One might look at this from the point of view of a language "whose > > intentions are fugitive" and recognize in this "ideal language" the dre= am > > of > > an entropic steady state of "security" in all senses of the word, in > which > > the desire for a homogeneity is realized. > > > > One may examine both translations and appropriations in terms of what > frame > > the translator/appropriator is working to insert the "original" work > into. > > That is, the frame of the translator/appropriator's conception of an > "ideal > > language," whether of poetry, history, ideology, theory etc. within th= e > > language and society in which they would like their > > translation/appropriation to "succeed," to "convince the reader of the > > value > > of the work beyond its original words and tongue." > > > > In a fitting sense, since this work may involve legal difficulties at > some > > point, the translator/appropriator may become a from of advocate for th= e > > "case" of the work of so-and-so to be included in the files of the > "ideal > > language" and the culture which it is participating in the formation of= . > > To > > "argue the case," so to speak, it may be necessary to withhold some > > evidence, and exaggerate perhaps the importance of other bits and piece= s > of > > "evidences." To alter the meaning of a word here or mute the tone of > > another there. Small shifts spread over the course of a poem, a > > collection, > > a body of work, accrue and accumulate and so build from within the > un-ideal > > original the structure of its "meta-narrative," a new and ideal shining > > City > > from out of the shell of the old, to paraphrase the IWW slogan. > > > > At a certain level then, what is sought for via such aspects of > > translations > > and/or appropriations is to produce works which are in conformity with > the > > standards desired by the society/culture into which they are being > > introduced, at least for "the time being," and hopefully "for a long ti= me > > to > > come." > > > > The underlying impetus of this might be thought of as the resistance to > the > > uncertainty principle, and the desire for a "security" even in what are > > called "risky" or "experimental" phases and forms of work. > > > > It is in this sense that an artist like Dubuffet observes the action an= d > > writes of an "asphyxiating culture." The "Arcades Project" from this > > perspective becomes an immense temple-tomb, a colossal assemblage of > > bric-a-brac on the order of Citizen Kane's Xanadu, a monument to anothe= r > > aspect of the Benjaminian cosmology, "The Collector." > > > > "The Collector" aspect of constructing the "ideal language," via > > translations, appropriations, is that one becomes a tourist and, if so > > capable, a tour-guide, which is what many of Benjamin's works basically > > are. The Situationists, who conceived of themselves as drifters among > the > > psycho-geographies of the urbanscapes, setting out on the long patrols = of > > the derive , scoffed at both conventional and "cultured/philosophical" > > tourism as "tourism in other people's misery." From this point of view= , > > translation/appropriation becomes the collecting and "taking possession= " > in > > all senses of the word, of photos, images, icons, objects, texts, > musics, > > dances which paradoxically belong to others who can't have them, or can= 't > > have them in the way that the one "taking possession" of them does. > > > > The irony is that in the age of "intellectual property," the "death of > the > > author" should become such an idealized trope, because if anything, the > > "author" is more alive than ever. > > > > Again, the spectre of the legal profession arises, the one in which > > Bartleby > > made his decision to "prefer not to" be a copyist anymore, and simply > > become, literally, "silent as the Tombs" in which appropriately named > penal > > institution he perished, he, the former handler of "dead letters." For > > today one witnesses the spectacle of legal entanglements regarding the > > appropriation or translation of authors' works, or of their > appropriations > > of others' appropriations, and a Ron Silliman can threaten to sue an > > anthology which attaches his name (owned by him) to a poem not written = by > > him. (What would happen if a poem written by him were published as an > > anonymous piece, or attributed to some totally unknown, perhaps even > > non-existent "name"?) > > > > Until late in the 19th century, there was no copyright to protect > American > > authors from having their works pirated and distributed to great profit > by > > publishers aboard, especially in England. An aspect of the plagiarism > that > > so obsessed Poe was that an author could steal willy nilly from another= , > > and > > so make money off another's labor without having to do the actual work = at > > all. The attacks Poe made on plagiarism were not always so much about > > "intellectual property" and "originality" as about the artist being pai= d > > for > > their time and labor and sharing in the profits it created for the > > publishers. Poe understood this from his own experience, as he had bee= n > > employed at one point on basically plagiarizing an entire book on > > conchology, adding just enough "original" touches here and there to mak= e > > the > > pirated edition appear "not the same, but new," for the benefit and > profit > > of the publishers. This form of "authorship" was fairly common at the > time, > > and one that was a logical progression from the earlier heyday of Trave= l > > Literature (discussed in a previous post.) > > > > In the earlier phases, travel literature ranged wildly from rather crud= e > > cobblings of roughly smacked together bits and pieces of others' works, > > with, if the cobbler of the work had some imagination, some "previously > > unrecorded" and especially thrilling and "New! Astonishing! Marvels > Never > > Before Seen nor Heard Of!" thrown into the mix to add to the sales and > also > > to the ever more hallucinatory visions of the lands on the other side o= f > > the > > Atlantic, the Indian or Pacific Oceans. > > (I recently came across an advertisement trumpeting the latest edition = of > > an > > old classic of the Travel Literature days, one which is made up of a go= od > > bit of plagiarism, some invention and some pure nonsense that the India= ns > > had fobbed off on the gullible explorers. The book is still in print a= s > > having yet a value as a guidebook to the areas it concerns! ) > > > > Lautreamont and Poe made great use of this tradition of license being > > extended in travel literature and works on such subjects as > conchology--for > > Lautreamont's Chants de Maldoror are constructed with vast swathes of > pure > > plagiarism, cheerfully mixed in with le Comte's Baroque treatments of t= he > > Gothic tradition from earlier in the same century, and plenty of doses = of > > scientific jargon culled from various dust collecting texts. > > > > (Witness also the opening of Moby Dick, which consists of the etymologi= es > > and examples of the names of the whale through time and around the glob= e, > > among many many languages and cultures.) > > > > I noted before that there is a relationship--as there is in Moby > > Dick--between the uses of appropriation and translations, mimicry and > > copying, which make of writing potentially a form of acting, even of a= n > > acting in a theater constructed by the writer and in which the writer > > becomes both the director and the leading character or characters. It = is > > possible also for the writer to become the audience as well and in turn > the > > critics, who provide reviews, commentaries, blurbs, hatchet jobs and > > fawning > > notes of introduction for some favorite of theirs whom they wish to > promote > > in the role of a kind of "private agent." This dispersal of the "write= r" > > through so many roles in turn begins to generate ever more series of > > meta-writers, meta-dramas, meta-commentaries until one has what is > > basically > > the long glorious history of the productions of Shakespeare's Richard t= he > > Third and their myriad spinoffs, including Johnny Rotten copying Lauren= ce > > Olivier's Richard in the film version for his creation of the character > and > > existence as a performer on stage of--Johnny Rotten, who in his turn is > > ranting and attacking the Queen. > > > > This theatricality of a writing which makes use of appropriations and > > translations (including invented ones) means that the "author" does not > > "die" but instead becomes an actor, in which the presence of other voic= es > > begins to issue through the throat and the writing of "some one else" t= o > > come from the hands. The actor whom is the role that the writer has > > become, speaks lines which are--whose?--The writer's? the actor's? th= e > > role's? And out of these emerges a writing which is a fiction which is > at > > the same time real, or a reality which is fictional, and al the while i= s > > performing an activity which is a writing, a gestural, visceral, sonic > and > > visual action writing which may in fact exist "nowhere at all" but as t= he > > non-writings of a non-writer who regards thinking and writing as the > same, > > just as imagined writing may exist in a sphere in which it has no need = of > > being "written down," as it enjoys in fact the freedom of it's not > existing > > on the page, but in the "else wheres.". > > > > When Bartleby says "I would prefer not to" and instead stands staring a= t > > the > > blank view through his window of a very close pressed wall of the > building > > opposite--is it into these elsewheres that his writing now is being don= e? > > > > So it is that a personage like my "El Colonel" and Spicer's Lorca, and > > Yasusada's Spicer as well as the Yasusada created by the reader out of > the > > accoutrements that are provided for the acting out of the role--so it i= s > > that these "non-existent" writers mingle with actual writers who are > > actually dead, in a theater in which ghosts are lovers and fictional > > non-ghosts consort with ghosts and the action of the writing is THE > LIVING > > of that being that one is to think of as either "the author" or "the > death > > of the author author." For it is not death, but dispersal across, > through, > > within, and away from writing itself that is the action of the being > > formerly known as "the author." > > > > Writing has lives of its own in which the writer may find encounters wi= th > > it, that outside which now and then bumps into him or her, and then, > after > > a > > bit, takes off again. Or an outside which is found, hidden in plain > > site/sight/cite all around one, that writing which is continually alive > and > > changing, moving, at once fugitive and glimpsed by, as Robert Smithson > > calls > > it, "the artist's glance," which can be a work as real as any object, y= et > > not exist except in the time and the "art of looking" of the artist. Fo= r > > once it becomes an object, then the artist is "signing over" the time a= nd > > art of looking as a possesion in which someone else "owns the art" and = in > a > > subtle or not so subtle way, also "owns the artist." > > > > The real death of the author may then be the sense that exists at prese= nt > > of > > the author, a being tied down by legal contracts to a name, an identity > > card > > number, an address, a telephone, a place and status within such and suc= h > > community of other authors. > > > > It is this death which a writer may well choose to "prefer not to" be > part > > of, and so find in a "fugitive" existence the ever chaning words and > lines > > of a lexicon which cannot be fixed, nor colonized, nor turned into yet > > another copyrighted name plated representation of themselves, all ready > to > > charge off to court to protect a name attached to a function which they > may > > at the same time profess to desire the death of. > > > > President Reagan, the Great Communicator, was in his own way an > > interesting example of a collector of quotations with an ear and eye t= o > > creating his own form of "ideal language," one which has proved to be o= ne > > of > > the most radical in its effects of modern times. Reagan loved > quotations, > > and his bedside reading consisted of a single colossal tome of nothing > but > > quotations, organized for use on any occasion imaginable and many , one > > imagines, not yet imagined, but that one should be prepared for, after > all, > > as The Great Communicator. > > > > Having been an actor, a president of the Screen Actors Guild, and a lon= g > > time pitchman for Westinghouse and GE, as well as a radio announcer and > tv > > celebrity both as actor and advertiser, Reagan had no problem at all > > memorizing hunks of quotations, plagiarized and appropriated lines and > bits > > of speeches, and "was never at a loss for words," a favorite technique > > being to tell some ancient joke or story "as though for the first time,= " > so > > that it's being a quotation was not even noticed. In this way, he > appeared > > to be an alert and quick-on-his-feet-thinker though in fact he was just > > pulling rabbits out of his well stocked hat. > > > > Reagan's cheerful attitude to taking away the meanings of lines and > > replacing them with the same words, only now heard as his own, reached = a > > moment of triumph in his appropriating the anti-Vietnam War song "Born = in > > the USA' as his own campaign song in 1984. Suddenly, the verses > > disappeared > > and all one really heard were those endlessly repeated choruses of "Bor= n > in > > the USA, Born in the USA" as though that was all that mattered. And in > > cynical way, he was right--after all the song was made for a movie and > > appeared long after the actual War, so how it could literally be "an > > anti-Vietnam War song?" Reagan's appropriation in a sense exposed the > > song's appropriation of the emotions of another time and another person= , > > and > > so the Reagan version had as much "validity" as the original did. And, = it > > being a song for a movie, who better to make use of it than an old movi= e > > actor, one who had actually appeared in war movies, if not the actual > war, > > unlike the song's author, who had done neither. > > > > And Reagan even quoted in Russian, with translation--the famous "trust > but > > verify" "Russian proverb" he had learned from his buddy "Mr. Gorbachev.= " > > At > > one point, in a pure unadulterated paroxysm of patriotism, he forgot > > himself > > and recounted his "war memories"--actually scenes from a war film he ha= d > > played in. In a sense, to show the "reality" of his emotions, he was > > "quoting from memory" a "real war scene" in which he had acted > competently > > enough to convince himself that he had actually been in the war. In th= is > > way, quoting from his roles allowed him to create a non-existent > biography > > which al the same was "documented on celluloid," that could be edited > into > > various versions of his official "biopic." > > > > In Poe's brief "sketch" written to accompany an illustrated plate, > entitled > > "Morning on the Wissahicon," (a forerunner of Reagan's "New Morning in > > America" as already a "Mourning on the Wissihicon)--a traveller takes a > > jaunt down the Wissihicaon and discovers unexpectedly, so close to the > > metropolis of Philadelphia, a wild and savage remnant of an America > already > > thought to be long past, and but the figments and shards of a former > dream. > > He sees an Indian in a wild overgrowth of unspoiled natural landscape, > and > > as he drifts by the dramatic scene, there even appears a a magnificent > and > > authentic American deer--a sort of proto--"Deer Hunter" moment in which > the > > marvelling traveler is confirmed in his belief that at last he has foun= d > > the > > old, the real America, of the wilderness and "savages," and the untamed > > wild > > life and untrimmed flora of his "native land." > > Yet, the traveller later learns, all of this has been an elaborat= e > > and beautifully staged simulacra, for a wealthy Englishman has purchase= d > > the > > former Colonial landscape, and populated it with a servant dressed and > made > > up as an Indian, let the flora go carelessly to seed, and provide the > whole > > as a topping to the cake, a domesticated deer who is able to pose as a > wild > > one for the passersby of a Sunday. Already a "quotation" of what had > been > > a > > stock vision of the "old America" in all its "savage splendour" has > > replaced > > the original with a copy which "outshines" as it were not only the long > > vanished original, but has also made, on is certain, the old real estat= e > > greatly increase in value by looking so like what it had replaced in > terms > > of what had been thought to be along lost memory with a Brand new and > vivid > > recreation posing as indeed "the reality of today." > > > > Poe's Englishman thus has accomplished already the creating of = an > > "ideal language and landscape" made entirely of quotations, and for Poe= , > > the > > "mourning" in this "morning" is that the morning is in a sense not yet > over > > with and it has already been replaced by a quotation of itself, which > will > > "outlive" the former and so in a sense give cause, if one recalls it at > > all, > > a "mourning" for the "morning on the Wissihicon which now no longer > exists > > except as indeed an ideal language and landscape "in quotation." > > > > The further "mourning" is that the English, who had been the former and > for > > a while defeated Colonial Power, have now wrested away what had been > known > > of as an "American original" and turned it into an English owned and > > recolonized landscape preserved as a copy of the vanished original. > > > > At the time that Poe began writing, ruins were all the rage, due in goo= d > > part to Gothic and Romantic literature from Europe--the kind of > literature > > and ruins Benjamin was later to write his now famous unpublished thesis > on. > > Americans were in a state of anxiety, as their country seemingly had > > produced no "real ruins." Poe--who had attended school five years abro= ad > > in > > Scotland--had seen "real ruins" and as he replied to one critic who > accused > > him of writing in the manner of the Germans of the time--"Terror is not > of > > Germany, but of the soul." Having witnessed the decomposition and > descent > > into ruins via disease of his dying mother, dying older brother and the= n > > dying wife, Poe realized that the the lack of "real ruins" are, like > > Emerson's Nature--"the blank and ruin we see in Nature is within our > > eye"--is not a lack at all but instead the blindness to what is in fron= t > of > > one--the decomposition and decay at the core of being, no matter how > "new." > > > > > > In his "Philosophy of Composition," Poe constructs an impeccably ration= al > > method by which he has gone about composing his poem "The Raven." No > > "romantic ruins" or frenzy inspired him, no "inspiration," but, instead= , > a > > kind of calculating feat of engineering brought to bear on the > > decomposition > > of the very thing that has constructed the poem--the rational, the > logical, > > the "constructive" mind. The use of quotation passes from humans to a > > bird--"quoth the Raven, 'Nevermore.'" The bird may even be a copy of a > > bird, a mechanical bird whose cries are repeated by virtue of a timing > > mechanism triggered by the last lines of the verse preceding its next > > outburst. Or they may indeed be those of a "real bird," "quoting" > > "nevermore," a phrase which plunges the student in the poem into one of > > those ever deepening and decomposing morasses of the soul which Poe > depicts > > also in the guise of decomposing bodies and languages also, which > devolve > > into black birds' cries (perhaps "quothing the Raven" itself--??!!) as > in > > The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym. > > > > Poe, with his rationally constructed tales in which decomposition and > > irrationality begin to "take over" and Burroughs with his fugitive > > languages > > whose words change their meanings frequently not only in time--from wee= k > to > > week or day to day if need be-- but also vary from place to place along > the > > trail of the outlaw addict, evidence a yearning for a language which wi= ll > > elude the colonization process of appropriation and quotation. For > > Dubuffet, the "way out" of this nightmare in the "asphyxiating culture" > of > > the art world was Art Brut as he originally found it and conceived of > > it--that is, Dubuffet recognized its existence there, well having the > > honesty himself as an artist to know that he himself might learn from > these > > "Raw" artists while not being one himself. > > > > That is, not that there will be an "authorial self" who is "original" b= ut > > that there may exist "languages" and realms of" communications" in and > > among and through which the possibility of a continually "living" yet > > "invisible" writing is "on the move," while behind it are the deposits = of > > its shed skins, its discarded, outdated notations, to be picked up on a= s > > "news" and "clues" so as to distract and confuse those would-be > > appropriators and translators of a writing which does not want to be > read, > > and so creates "fakes" of its non-self in order to provide "cover" for > its > > ever elusive voyages, fictions to amuse itself as it observes the futil= e > > hunters continually be led round and round in circles, deciphering > > non-signs > > as signs and elaborate scrawls as "lucid notations" of a "lost language= " > or > > of a "new language" which they alone will become the possessors of the > > secrets of, the sole appropriators and translators of, the alpha and > omega > > of a literature which now is thought to "belong to history and > > civilization" > > and which instead is simply an empty wooden horse, a decoy duck, while > > somewhere, elsewhere, the writing leads lives of its own. > > > > (Note: I just found Wyston Curnow's question re a genealogy of the > > appropriation use of today-- > > > > the issue of appropriation, as noted, begins to change with the > > introduction > > and spread of copyright laws, as with the acceleration of the producti= on > > of > > copies in themselves-- > > Benjamin formulates his questions re "The Work of Art in the Age of > > Mechanical Reproduction" close to a hundred years after Poe has begun > > doing > > so. Hawthorne, writing in the 1840's roughly, in The House of Seven > > Gables, > > already has as a major figure a Daguerreotypist who provides, along wit= h > > the > > narrator, commentaries on the art of the photograph in comparison with > that > > of painting--that is, in terms of their status as not solely copies of > > persons and scenes, but also as methods directed towards revealing what > is > > otherwise hidden to the eye of an observer. The "composition" of a > > daguerreotype then, becomes a form of decomposition of not only a paint= ed > > image, but as well of the "image of the person" themselves--"revealing" > > aspects hidden not only to others but also perhaps to themselves. As a > > "reversed mirror image" in a sense, it gives an oddly "corrected" image > of > > that image which one had previously supposed one was seeing as others d= o. > > > > The very decomposition of the House itself becomes as it were a method = of > > "letting in more light" via the cracked and fissured surfaces, which is > the > > "pencil of light" with which the camera writes into existence a new > method > > of representing things not only singly, but serially, or, as in the > famous > > mirror scenes in Citizen Kane and The Lady from Shanghai--an endless > series > > of mirrorings of the self trapped in the light of the moment which is > > turning it into the past as the figure moves before the --and into--the > > hall > > of mirrors. > > > > One might begin with an examination of many of the texts of the "Classi= c > > American Literature" (D.H Lawrence) as the first literature to in a sen= se > > compose via decomposition and in so doing decompose the "future" of its > own > > literature before it has happened. (Rather than being a deconstruction > > avant la lettre, as Poe's work has furnished examinations for, it is a > > decomposition of the work of time on things before they have begun to > > exist.) > > > > One finds that already a century and a half ago and more, there already > > exist in this Classic Literature the contemporary the issues of copying= , > > appropriation, translations, quotations, cataloging, "secret messages," > > "messages in code," the examination of handwriting itself as a method o= f > > literary "criticism," the centrality of the role of death, the appearan= ce > > of > > "intelligent machines" and "psychic communications" as a form of > scientific > > possibility--the ghostly, the after-effects existences, of unknown > writings > > and languages which haunt the forests and wildernesses, and as well are > > still living among them in many vast areas, the complimentary American > > forms > > of Gigantism (Walt Whitman, Paul Bunyan, Earthworks) and the Minimalist > > (Emily Dickinson)--as well as the use throughout American popular art o= f > > the > > copy of an object to represent the trade or concept for which the > object's > > copy is supposed to stand. (The vast and eccentric systems of signs us= ed > > in > > the US a hundred fifty years ago are basically the creation of a three > > dimensional sculptural-visual poetry of incredible variety and ingenuit= y. > > In a sense, it is a writing for persons who may not actually know how t= o > > read--in any language--or simply in English--) > > > > One of the aspects of this writing is that it in ways is more related t= o > > Art > > Brut and Burroughs' fugitive languages, than to to the more confining a= nd > > constrained of the commonly in use American examples of today, as it se= es > > and makes use of everything as writing. This is neither "the world as > > text" > > nor "the text as world" or today's rather fundamentalist and curiously > > Puritan conception of a "material word" on the page, with the attendant > > "sacredness of the book, the text," but something blasphemous (Melville > to > > Hawthorne, on completing Moby Dick: "I have written a wicked book and > am > > as clean as the Lamb")- --that is, that the world is alive with writing= s > > which are moving and changing at every moment, and themselves exist on > > living beings as well as on insentient "materials." (Melville also > writes > > to Hawthorne, that the very hand which lifts now the pen that it has ju= st > > written with, is not the same hand that just formed the last completed > > letter of script, and will not be the same as the one that writes the > > next--) > > > > Tattoos, scrimshaw, the Scarlet Letter, the letters of the words of an > > unknown language carved into the black rock of an island, (in Pym; > Robert > > Smithson wrote of these as "perfect proto Earthwords" for a new art > > criticism")--the disappearing inks and concealed treasure maps, the > Goldbug > > and its revelations--as well as the "readings" of Nature by Thoreau and > > Emerson, and the observations as signs in turn of the "Leaves of Grass" > > which are the tongues of the sleepers below ground, and, beyond that, > "the > > untold, the unwritten war" that "Will Never Be Written in the Books" of > > Whitman's "Specimen Days, or the insects and flowers in Emily Dickinson > > which form the kind of private language which she uses to "but cross th= e > > room and be in the Spice Islands" (the continual voyage theme)--all of > > these > > are writings which extend writing far beyond the "normaliiizing" > > conventions > > of the limits of the page-- > > > > This vision of a language which is continually in movement, continually > > changing, concealing itself, reappearing, being thrown overboard, or > > bobbing > > about as the carved coffin bearing the absent Queequeg's script and the > > sole > > survivor and author to be of the tale of the late Pequod--is itself fr= om > a > > period in which the American language was in flux, not yet standardize= d > > and > > fixed into the defined and set stone of Webster's. A chaos in spelling, > > punctuation and grammar was perfectly acceptable, as were the wildly > > varying > > degrees of abilities of readers to decipher the riot of signs and symbo= ls > > running amok all around them, and so was a sense of writing as somethin= g > > alive and and unfixed, nomadic and tending, like Art Brut and the > addict's > > fugitive Jargons, towards an anarchy and "Civil Disobedience" which hav= e > > become increasingly tamed, toned down and timid. > > > > For example, consider that today, a work of appropriation in a conceptu= al > > sense is proffered as that of "unoriginality, copying" and the "author" > > thus > > no longer "exists" except as a functionary, a filer of data, a sorter o= f > > files. This is precisely the work which Bartleby is assigned to, and > which > > he one day simply decides that he would "prefer not to" do anymore. > > > > Bartleby's act of Disobedience he pays for by being incarcerated in the > > tombs, there to die, refusing all the while to acept anything offered o= ut > > of > > a sense of obligation by the employer who had put him there in the firs= t > > place, as a last resort against homelessness. > > > > In a peculiar way, may one not say that Bartleby is a kind of "politica= l > > prisoner," (civil disobediance since 9/11 carrying much heavier potenti= al > > penalties) in the sense that he will no longer carry out the > contemporary > > (today's) idea of what it means to be an author-cum-death-of-the-author= ? > > Instead, he would "prefer not to" be a writer who writes as the death o= f > > the > > author as it exists in the conceptual formulation of copyist and filer, > > even > > if rejecting this method of writing-as-the-death-of-the-author means th= e > > loss of his freedom, and following that, of his life. > > > > In short, Bartleby would "prefer not to" BE a > "death-of-the-author-author" > > but instead simply to die. > > > > here are some examples of a few of the possiblities themselves so myria= d > > and > > ever expanding of the little i suggest in the above > > > > > > Conceptual Poetry and its Others > > UA Poetry Center > > May 29-31, 2008 > > David-Baptiste Chirot< > > > http://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com/2008/05/conceptual-poetry-and-its= -others.html > > > > > > > David-Baptiste Chirot: "Waterboarding & > > Poetry" > > Wordforword #13 Spring 2008 > > (also has Visual Poetry by chirot) > > Poems from Guant=E1namo > > The Detainees Speak > > David Baptite Chirot < > http://www.kaurab.com/english/books/guantanamo.html > > >* > > No* > > KAURAB Translation Site > > > > David-Baptiste Chirot > > *El Colonel's Composition Book* > > > > > http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2008/10/david-baptiste-chirot-el-colonels= .html > > > > 20080530 David-Baptiste Chirot > > > > > http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2008/05/david-baptiste-chirot-el-colonel-= wakes.html > > > > *El Colonel wakes up from dreaming* > > > > 1. [PDF< > > > http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=3DA0oGkjhGqwxJKXIB.2NXNyoA;_ylu=3DX3oDMTByZWgwN= 285BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkAw--/SIG=3D11rat3ean/EXP=3D122565344= 6/**http%3a//www.dusie.org/ElColonelsmile.pdf > > > > > ] developing poetic ideas > > 3647k - Adobe PDF - View as > > html< > > > http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=3DA0oGkjhGqwxJKXIB_GNXNyoA/SIG=3D16nm69t56/EXP= =3D1225653446/**http%3a//66.218.69.11/search/cache%3fei=3DUTF-8%26p=3Del%2b= colonel%2bsmiles%26fr=3Dytff1-divx%26u=3Dwww.dusie.org/ElColonelsmile.pdf%2= 6w=3Del%2bcolonel%2bcolonels%2bsmiles%26d=3DXMYTYULURrCT%26icp=3D1%26.intl= =3Dus > > > > > *El* *Colonel* *Smiles*. For Roberto Bolano *...* *El* *Colonel* > > *smiles*. > > Pleasure birds fly in exotic jungles, among tableaux of hacked and > *...* > > www.*dusie.org*/ElColonelsmile.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:57 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat > >wrote: > > > > > Walter Benjamin's *The Arcades Project* and Montaigne's *Essays* are > > > masterpieces made mostly of quotations, the writer's own thoughts > weaving > > > around them. > > > > > > Translation, if properly understood as the creation of parallel > > meta-texts > > > rather than as copies, is a genre of appropriation. W. Benjamin's > "ideal > > > language" -which is his concept of what translation involves- is > > > essentially a hypertext composed entirely of appropriated texts. > > > > > > Ciao, > > > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 17:33:20 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Caroline Bergvall and C.S. Giscombe at Small Press Traffic 11/7/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Small Press Traffic is thrilled to present: Caroline Bergvall and C.S. Giscombe Friday, November 7, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. Timken Lecture Hall Refreshments will be served Join us! Caroline Bergvall (London) is a writer and poet. Her latest collection of texts was entitled FIG (Salt, 2005), part 2 of her series Goan Atom (volume first published by Kruspkaya, 2001). Her work is frequently multilingual, performative and collaborative. She has developed audioworks, visual textwork, net-based pieces, live performances, both in Europe, Scandinavia and in North America. Recent presentations include. readings at MOMA (NY'2007 and 2008), as part of their Modern Poet Series, MOCA (LA,07), Digital Writing evening (Tate Modern, April'08); the earlier project Say: "Parsley", a sound and language installation, has just been re-sited at Museum of Contemporary Arts (MuKHa, Antwerp, May-Aug 08); new pieces from her text cycle Shorter Chaucer Tales were presented at DIA Arts Foundation (NY June'08 ) and published by Belladonna as a one-off "Alyson Singes", as well as new chapbooks published in Scandinavia. Recent writer's talk and presentation at the Conceptual Poetry and its Other symposium (Tucson, Arizona May'08), as well as readings in Sweden (October'08). Her critical work is concerned with performativity, mixed-media writings and multilingual poetics. Director of Performance Writing, Dartington College of Arts (1995-2000); Dartington Fellow (2000-2006); Co-Chair of the MFA Writing Faculty, Bard College (2004-2007). She is currently the recipient of an AHRC Arts Fellowship in Britain (2007-2010). C. S. Giscombe teaches at UC Berkeley and lives in Oakland. He has received awards and grants from the Canadian Embassy, Fund for Poetry, Council for the International Exchange of Scholars, and others. His recent and about-to-be-published poetry books are Here, Giscome Road, and Prairie Style; his prose book (about black Canada) is Into and Out of Dislocation. His work has been included in the Best American Poetry, the Oxford Anthology of African American Poetry, Bluesprint: Black British Columbia Literature and Orature, Lyric Postmodernisms, and elsewhere. Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to current SPT members and CCA faculty, staff, and students. There's no better time to join SPT! Check out: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin). Directions & map: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/directions.htm We'll see you Fridays! _______________________________ Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org www.smallpresstraffic.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 00:57:41 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: Kaufman and Luoma/Spahr Boog Pamphlets Now Online Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I=B9m going through our archives and starting to put online our back catalog of chapbooks, perfect-bound books, pamphlets, postcards, broadsides, and zines. To that end, below are the links for two of our Boog Reader pamphlets, #5, Erica Kaufman=B9s The Kickboxer Suite, and #8, the flipbook from Dear Filesystem Panic by Bill Luoma and Gender Trouble by Juliana Spahr. http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/boog_reader_pamphlets/boogreader5.pdf http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/boog_reader_pamphlets/boogreader8.pdf Enjoy, David --=20 David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W. 28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 12:44:57 +0530 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Samit Roy Subject: Hope you like this MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi everyone, Otoliths Issue Eleven, Southern Spring 2008 is out and I am glad that Mark has included my work in this issue. Please take a look at my work at following location: http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2008/10/samit-roy-jeebanjuddha-samit-roy-is.html It is really exciting to get my works published with Vispo artists like David-Baptiste Chirot, Alexander Jorgensen, John M Bennet, Sheila E. Murphy and many other well-known and respected poets, visual artists and vispo artists. Cheers! Samit ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 03:40:58 -0800 Reply-To: afieled@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Paul Siegell & Laura Goldstein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out good new stuff from Philly's own Paul Siegell and Chicago transpl= ant Laura Goldstein on PFS Post: =A0 http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com =A0 Peace Out, Fingers Crossed, Adam=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 04:03:52 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Spicer's Lorca includes many translations of actual Lorca poems, mixed in w= ith ones that are not translations at all. Someone who knows Spanish can te= ll us how free or not the translations are, but when I compared some of the= m to other "straight" translations that have been published, they seemed pr= etty similar.=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: David Chi= rot =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Sun= day, 2 November, 2008 5:10:38 PM=0ASubject: Re: appropriative poetics: gene= alogy/history?=0A=0ADear Murat--=0A=0AMany thanks for your response.=0A=0AF= irst--=0ASpicer's work, like a series i've done--is "After"--which is to sa= y--not a=0Atranslation.=0A=0AI do not know really, but as far as I am aware= , the Spicer "After Lorca"=0Aaren't translations at all, nor are my "After = Rimbaud's Illuminations"--=0Anor would be Yasusada's "After Spicer"--=0A=0A= they are works which are inspired by aspects of the originals, with which= =0Aone lives intensely for a period of time, whether themselves (originals)= as=0Ain fact already translations, or one's own readings in the originals,= =0Awithout having the desire to translate them, but rather use them as a me= ans=0Ato show one's love, respect, thanks, to the other poet, and at the sa= me=0Atime, launch what one has been inspired by into the trajectories of on= e's=0Aown work, life, spirit etc--=0A=0AI agree with you about the form of = translation which Benjamin writes of. My=0Apoint is that in thing as compl= ex and myriad faceted--or hydra headed!--as=0Atranslation and appropriation= , rather than decide on solely one approach at=0Athe expense of investigati= ng several or many as possible of the others, is=0Ato in a sense make too n= arrow an aperture for, my one so put it,=0A"Illumination."=0A=0ATranslation= s can lie as easily as any other form of writing--a translator=0Aknows the = correct meaning, and, not liking it, as it does not fit in with=0Athe "mess= age"which the translator wants the text to bear--ignores that and=0Ainstead= chooses another word, set of words, phrases, etc--and so alters=0Acomplete= ly the meaning of the original.=0A=0AAs in the kinds of commentaries and re= serachs to which Barry alluded, i've=0Aspent eons digging about in various = series of translations, footnotes,=0Acommentaries, old dictionaries and so = forth, on the trail of finding out not=0Aso much what actually is or is not= the "original" meaning --of a poem, word,=0Asign--but to have better under= standing, still all too small a one, of how=0Athrough time and across vario= us manipulations, revisions, commentaries,=0Acontroversies and theses, a po= em, a line, a word may have been treated or=0Amis- or dis-treated---via tra= nslation.=0A=0AA great deal of the "information" that is transmitted around= the world is=0Amade up of deliberately dis-translated texts, speeches, sou= nd bytes--in=0Aorder to foment strife, or to promote various forms of insid= ious illusions=0Ain order to create fear and hate.=0A=0AThe same may easily= be done with appropriation--in my first letter i put=0Aforth some of the u= ncountable reasons that are positive and why i use such=0Amethods myself an= d study the works of others who do.=0A=0AA very good way to study appropria= tion and also various methods of=0Atranslation is via collage, forms of mon= tage as serial panels (which in=0Apainting is very ancient method)--and als= o simply collecting the things one=0Afinds on a walk and making an arrangem= ent of more of these.=0A=0AImmediately one sees how much may be changed, an= d so radically, by a few=0Asimple shifts in the order of things, or which e= lements are contingent to=0Aothers, which dropped out, which cropped and so= on--=0A=0AUsing not all that many images and torn fotos, words, letters, o= ne may=0Acreate a series which is a form of cinema--=0Aor, on a single page= , may take the form of a one page movie--a=0Asimultaneously presented serie= s which one "sees" and "reads" not linearly,=0Abut as a series of linked as= sociations, leaps and intuitions.=0A=0AThe reason that being aware of as ma= ny ways as one can of how these methods=0Aare used is that they do not appl= y "simply to art and poetry," but as well=0Ato the way in which the world o= ne lives in is constructed. The "reality"=0Aone is offered via texts, scre= ens, sound, images, video,film, signs on the=0Astreet, is already a series = on a gigantic scale of cut-ups, edits, montages,=0Acollages, dis and regula= r translations, faked and real events and texts,=0Aimages and runaway hears= ay and rumor spread at instant speeds across the=0Aworld, involving in next= to no time at all millions of people.=0A=0AAt every step of the way one is= "hailed," to use Althusser's term--(and=0Aquite literally on our street wh= ere step someone is hailing you--with dope=0Aor sex,or a person'd sure coul= d use a smoke or some change or simply to=0Atell you about the demons that= are possessing them--or the Lord--or=0Aghosts--or the Blues--=0A=0AAs a wr= iter, "intrepid reporter," painter, collage maker-for me---all these=0Aare = elements, materials, and they arrive continually. Among the aspects=0Awhic= h are endlessly interesting are the ways in which words are used to make=0A= use of other people--and at the same time have them think that this is not= =0Aso. Of course, in listening and paying attention, one oneself is making= use=0Aof whatever comes along! To me what are ceaselessly amazing are the= =0Aparadoxes of events, words, signs, images--how if one looks and listens = from=0Aone vantage, things appear to be one way--and then to shift the head= =0Aslightly to the left--and see and hear how things then appear and are he= ard.=0AAnd to continue doing so--toh get a smal sense of how much can be ch= naged by=0Ajust the smallest shifts--=0A=0AWhy is it that there must be one= single way to view things? From each=0Aperson one may hear or not a diffe= ring reason why they have chosen to=0Abelieve in one particular way as oppo= sed to or another. This happens with=0Aoneself--one begins to find out how= many things one had taken as truths=0Awhich are and were not so at all. = And if one sought the reason why at some=0Apoint one had taken them to be s= o--all too often it turned out to be=0Asomething far more arbitrary than ex= pected! A lot of the time one is=0Abasically unlearning a great deal of th= e nonsense one has in one's head.=0A=0ANow, if one begins with a certain id= ea in mind of a doctrine of the methods=0Aone is using--then one may develo= p a blind spot to those things which do not=0Afit the pattern, nor "back up= " one's point of view, which is to be as=0Afaithful as possible to the meth= odology which one believes in.=0A=0Ait is mysterious beyond measure how man= y things that people criticize=0Afiction readers for--the willing suspensio= n of disbelief--they themselves=0Aaccept without question from so and so or= such and such, as though coming=0Afrom them it must be true.=0A=0AIn a sen= se, this method of beginning from the point of view of one doctrine=0Aonly = is a way to predetermine an outcome of the direction in which one is=0Agoin= g with what one is working with. One arrives where one expected, and so=0A= this proves that if one sets others out on this way they also will.=0AAccor= ding to so and so who first perfected the method, of course.=0A=0AThe probl= em is some people are not that good at following directions and=0Aothers co= uld care less and improvise along the way and others still yet=0Aviolently = oppose so and so who drew up the map.=0A=0AThis is why one finds the endles= s series of commentaries and footnotes,=0Adisputes and controversies--al th= ose supplemental elements which multiply=0Athe one orginal point of view--v= ia all sorts of mistakes, miscues, missed=0Aturns and out right oppostion.= =0A=0AThis is still the approach of a kind of single-subject author. Why n= ot,=0Athen, begin instead from a non-doctrine or methodology and simply beg= in to=0Aexamine in different modes of writing and in the voices and images = of=0Adiffereing beings within or that one knows via observation--and so to = travel=0Ainto this other way--unknown as yet--to see where it may be going?= =0A=0AOne may improvise, act the part--use whatever way one likes--=0A=0AIn= a way, over the letters i've written here, one may see that several=0Aseri= es of points of view appear--and several voices enter in--in order to=0Akee= p the way open, the movement continuing--=0A=0AIf one is not "one author"--= but many, and none of them necessarily stable,=0Afixed, either, but each o= ne having themselves many within them--=0A=0AMany things one may never have= imagined, nor been able to express as well at=0Aall as this found article = one could never have imagined-- these found=0Athings--words, images, articl= es, clips--which one appropriates--to stand for=0Athemselves--in this flow = of voices, writings--images--=0Aopen to things again that are uncanny--perh= aps familiar and at the same time=0Aunknown--or perhaps entirely new, thoug= h with stil some odd hint of a=0Aprevious non encounter deja vu occurring i= n the background, like the humming=0Aof a fly in a room on the other side o= f a screen with holes torn in it--=0A=0AAt one moment to be a Benjaminian t= ranslator, at the next to say one is an=0Aagent of some agency, MEMRI, or t= he like , which is going to set about=0Adis-translating the same piece of w= riting.=0A=0AAfter all, mutiny may occur aboard the ship--and the captain b= e=0Aoverthrown--and so another method introduced--piratical--or peaceful--o= r=0Asimply partying--=0A=0A=0AAppropriation does not only have to do with t= he taking of land, of=0Apossessions, of ideas, of a culture--but also of th= e soul of a=0Abeing--"possession" is not only 9 tenths of the law--but a fo= rm of=0A"spiritual possession"--to seize upon the spirit of a being and suc= k it=0Aout--to take a foto and steal it--or like my Mohawk in-law, to know = the if=0Aone heard her voice on the phone, that meant the person who was no= t there=0Alistening would be a spirit stealing her soul--so never to use th= e=0Atelephone--or have a foto taken--or sign any documents--=0A=0Athis is t= he fugitive aspect of words which change continually that Burroughs=0Awrite= s or, or the element of Art Brut so admired by Dubuffet--that Smithson=0Awr= ites of with "an artist's glance"--being able to make a work which is not= =0Aan object to be possessed--=0A=0AThere are elements and aspects of writi= ng, of "art" that do not want to be=0Aknown, don't care to be--possessed--d= o not want to be named--=0A=0AAnd yet to exist--=0A=0Ato have lives of thei= r own outside --=0A=0Aso many lives lived in an instant and one is forced i= nto a strait jacket of=0Awords--=0A=0Ato have a freedom of that life's own-= -=0Awithout anyone or anything "liberating " it--=0A=0ASometimes it is not = that one "misread" something--but that one read it all=0Atoo well--=0A=0A(a= nd perhaps wants or wanted no part of it--)=0A=0Aactaully here ia little pa= rable that is interesting:=0A=0Ai read of a baseball player who early in th= e season was traded from one team=0Ato another, "for a player to be named l= ater."=0A=0Aeventually, "later" came, nearing the trading deadline late in = the season--=0Aand who would be sent to the other team as the player to be = named later--=0A=0Awhy, none other than the same player who had been traded= away!=0A=0Athe only time in baseball history that a trade indisputably wor= ked out to=0Abeing "equal" for the team making the trade-=0A=0Aan interesti= ng event--to be traded for oneself!=0A=0Aas yogi berra, the great hall of f= ame catcher, 3 time MVP, former yankee=0Amanager and famous American improv= isationsalist on the mother tongue told=0Athe graduating class of a coll= ege in his native new jersey--=0A=0Awhen you come to a fork in the road--ta= ke it!=0A=0Awhich is what one essays to do in examing these questions--=0At= ake care at the fork in the road and the fork in the tongue!=0Aand listen c= losely and learn--=0A=0AOn Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <= muratnn@gmail.com> wrote:=0A=0A> David,=0A>=0A> Just a quick response to yo= ur post before I read it more carefully and=0A> comment on it in greater de= tail later:=0A> I understand very well your seeing the possibility of explo= itation within=0A> the idea of appropriation. There is no question historic= ally that has=0A> happened often enough, erasing the "original" in the proc= ess.=0A>=0A> I am referring to something quite different. Do not forget tha= t in his=0A> matrix of "translation" and "ideal language" Benjamin sees tra= nslation as a=0A> "loose gown" or a collection of shards/fragments. Dissolu= tion, particularly=0A> of a close system, is at the heart of his concept of= tramnslation. In=0A> *After=0A> Lorca* Spicer picks that aspect of Benjami= n's thought. (I have an essay=0A> exactly on that relation between Benjamin= and Spicer that can be found on=0A> line in Lucas's Cypherjournal website.= =0A>=0A> On the other hand, I do believe that every translation, in my sens= e of the=0A> word, starts with a "misreading" which cracks open the origina= l by=0A> fragmenting it. The target language also must "misread" itself cra= cking=0A> itself open. This way both languages undergo transformations, cre= ating a=0A> synthesis by joining in the space of ideal language,=0A>=0A> Wh= at translation does is to explore, crack open *latent* possibilities in=0A>= both languages which the close system of each suppresses. Translation=0A> = becomes a linguistic act of liberation. Here is the translation paradox: a= =0A> translation misreads, but must/can never lie about the original.=0A> M= isreadings=0A> will only reveal, liberate what is inherent in them. That is= how they=0A> become=0A> the very reverse of exploitation.=0A>=0A> "Transla= tion is foreignness in a language bending to contain its weight."=0A>=0A> C= iao,=0A>=0A> Murat=0A>=0A>=0A> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:11 PM, David Chirot= =0A> wrote:=0A>=0A> > In a note regarding the appe= nded glossary at the book's end, William S=0A> > Burroughs in his Introduct= ion to Junkie (1953) writes: "A final=0A> glossary,=0A> > therefore, may n= ot be made of words whose intentions are fugitive."=0A> >=0A> > One aspect = of both translation and appropriation is precisely that what=0A> is=0A> > d= one with the original text is NOT to copy, as Murat notes, but indeed to=0A= > > create meta-narratives of and/or with/for them, and not necessarily=0A>= > parallel=0A> > ones, either.=0A> >=0A> > This last point, for me at any = rate, is important to keep in mind, for in=0A> > examing the questions of t= ranslations and appropriations, one needs to=0A> > remain aware of the poss= iblities for these to be used in ways which,=0A> while=0A> > being "camoufl= aged" perhaps as "artistic," may instead be directed in=0A> more=0A> > sini= ster directions. As usual, there are a good many more than "two=0A> sides= =0A> > to a story," and it is in fact this very potentiality, these many=0A= > > possiblities, and the uncertainty principle in regards to which are bei= ng=0A> > activated--that makes the activity of working with as well as stud= ying=0A> such=0A> > materials a more complex and subtly varieagted one than= may at first be=0A> > supposed.=0A> >=0A> > For example, in referring to W= alter Benjamin and his "Arcades Project,"=0A> > Murat notes Benjamin's envi= sioning a work made entirely of quotations,=0A> > which=0A> > would be an a= spect of the philosopher's conception of an "ideal=0A> language."=0A> >=0A>= > To open some of the myraid possiblities in any given moment in the=0A> a= ct/work=0A> > of apprropriation and/or translation, let's use for a few mom= ents the=0A> point=0A> > of view of Burroughs' words whose intentions are f= ugitive.=0A> >=0A> > The figure of "Benjamin's Baudelaire," which has becom= e a more familiar=0A> and=0A> > preferred "Baudelaire" for many English spe= aking readers than the actual=0A> > (so=0A> > to speak) Baudelaire and his = actual works, is a "living example" of this=0A> > form of "ideal language" = functioning in the direction of a totalizing=0A> > system, in which the "co= lonization" of the past is carried out in order=0A> to=0A> > draw from it t= he indications of the immediate or eventual triumph of the=0A> > translator= /appropriator's ideology/theology/theory of preference. That=0A> is,=0A> >= one amasses and arranges the objects and quotations of the past in such a= =0A> > way as to become the accurate predictors of a future envisioned via = rear=0A> > projection and reverse engineering. Thus, perhaps, a new form o= f=0A> astrology=0A> > may be created as well as "theses on history."=0A> >= =0A> > One might look at this from the point of view of a language "whose= =0A> > intentions are fugitive" and recognize in this "ideal language" the = dream=0A> > of=0A> > an entropic steady state of "security" in all senses o= f the word, in=0A> which=0A> > the desire for a homogeneity is realized.=0A= > >=0A> > One may examine both translations and appropriations in terms of = what=0A> frame=0A> > the translator/appropriator is working to insert the "= original" work=0A> into.=0A> > That is, the frame of the translator/appropr= iator's conception of an=0A> "ideal=0A> > language," whether of poetry, his= tory, ideology, theory etc. within the=0A> > language and society in which= they would like their=0A> > translation/appropriation to "succeed," to "co= nvince the reader of the=0A> > value=0A> > of the work beyond its original = words and tongue."=0A> >=0A> > In a fitting sense, since this work may invo= lve legal difficulties at=0A> some=0A> > point, the translator/appropriator= may become a from of advocate for the=0A> > "case" of the work of so-and-s= o to be included in the files of the=0A> "ideal=0A> > language" and the cu= lture which it is participating in the formation of.=0A> > To=0A> > "argue= the case," so to speak, it may be necessary to withhold some=0A> > evidenc= e, and exaggerate perhaps the importance of other bits and pieces=0A> of=0A= > > "evidences." To alter the meaning of a word here or mute the tone of= =0A> > another there. Small shifts spread over the course of a poem, a=0A>= > collection,=0A> > a body of work, accrue and accumulate and so build fro= m within the=0A> un-ideal=0A> > original the structure of its "meta-narrati= ve," a new and ideal shining=0A> > City=0A> > from out of the shell of the = old, to paraphrase the IWW slogan.=0A> >=0A> > At a certain level then, wha= t is sought for via such aspects of=0A> > translations=0A> > and/or appropr= iations is to produce works which are in conformity with=0A> the=0A> > stan= dards desired by the society/culture into which they are being=0A> > introd= uced, at least for "the time being," and hopefully "for a long time=0A> > t= o=0A> > come."=0A> >=0A> > The underlying impetus of this might be thought = of as the resistance to=0A> the=0A> > uncertainty principle, and the desire= for a "security" even in what are=0A> > called "risky" or "experimental" p= hases and forms of work.=0A> >=0A> > It is in this sense that an artist lik= e Dubuffet observes the action and=0A> > writes of an "asphyxiating culture= ." The "Arcades Project" from this=0A> > perspective becomes an immense te= mple-tomb, a colossal assemblage of=0A> > bric-a-brac on the order of Citiz= en Kane's Xanadu, a monument to another=0A> > aspect of the Benjaminian cos= mology, "The Collector."=0A> >=0A> > "The Collector" aspect of constructing= the "ideal language," via=0A> > translations, appropriations, is that one = becomes a tourist and, if so=0A> > capable, a tour-guide, which is what man= y of Benjamin's works basically=0A> > are. The Situationists, who conceive= d of themselves as drifters among=0A> the=0A> > psycho-geographies of the u= rbanscapes, setting out on the long patrols of=0A> > the derive , scoffed a= t both conventional and "cultured/philosophical"=0A> > tourism as "tourism = in other people's misery." From this point of view,=0A> > translation/appr= opriation becomes the collecting and "taking possession"=0A> in=0A> > all s= enses of the word, of photos, images, icons, objects, texts,=0A> musics,= =0A> > dances which paradoxically belong to others who can't have them, or = can't=0A> > have them in the way that the one "taking possession" of them d= oes.=0A> >=0A> > The irony is that in the age of "intellectual property," = the "death of=0A> the=0A> > author" should become such an idealized trope, = because if anything, the=0A> > "author" is more alive than ever.=0A> >=0A> = > Again, the spectre of the legal profession arises, the one in which=0A> >= Bartleby=0A> > made his decision to "prefer not to" be a copyist anymore, = and simply=0A> > become, literally, "silent as the Tombs" in which appropri= ately named=0A> penal=0A> > institution he perished, he, the former handler= of "dead letters." For=0A> > today one witnesses the spectacle of legal e= ntanglements regarding the=0A> > appropriation or translation of authors' w= orks, or of their=0A> appropriations=0A> > of others' appropriations, and a= Ron Silliman can threaten to sue an=0A> > anthology which attaches his nam= e (owned by him) to a poem not written by=0A> > him. (What would happen if= a poem written by him were published as an=0A> > anonymous piece, or attri= buted to some totally unknown, perhaps even=0A> > non-existent "name"?)=0A>= >=0A> > Until late in the 19th century, there was no copyright to protect= =0A> American=0A> > authors from having their works pirated and distributed= to great profit=0A> by=0A> > publishers aboard, especially in England. An= aspect of the plagiarism=0A> that=0A> > so obsessed Poe was that an author= could steal willy nilly from another,=0A> > and=0A> > so make money off an= other's labor without having to do the actual work at=0A> > all. The attac= ks Poe made on plagiarism were not always so much about=0A> > "intellectua= l property" and "originality" as about the artist being paid=0A> > for=0A> = > their time and labor and sharing in the profits it created for the=0A> > = publishers. Poe understood this from his own experience, as he had been=0A= > > employed at one point on basically plagiarizing an entire book on=0A> >= conchology, adding just enough "original" touches here and there to make= =0A> > the=0A> > pirated edition appear "not the same, but new," for the b= enefit and=0A> profit=0A> > of the publishers. This form of "authorship" wa= s fairly common at the=0A> time,=0A> > and one that was a logical progressi= on from the earlier heyday of Travel=0A> > Literature (discussed in a previ= ous post.)=0A> >=0A> > In the earlier phases, travel literature ranged wild= ly from rather crude=0A> > cobblings of roughly smacked together bits and p= ieces of others' works,=0A> > with, if the cobbler of the work had some ima= gination, some "previously=0A> > unrecorded" and especially thrilling and = "New! Astonishing! Marvels=0A> Never=0A> > Before Seen nor Heard Of!" throw= n into the mix to add to the sales and=0A> also=0A> > to the ever more hall= ucinatory visions of the lands on the other side of=0A> > the=0A> > Atlanti= c, the Indian or Pacific Oceans.=0A> > (I recently came across an advertise= ment trumpeting the latest edition of=0A> > an=0A> > old classic of the Tra= vel Literature days, one which is made up of a good=0A> > bit of plagiarism= , some invention and some pure nonsense that the Indians=0A> > had fobbed o= ff on the gullible explorers. The book is still in print as=0A> > having y= et a value as a guidebook to the areas it concerns! )=0A> >=0A> > Lautreamo= nt and Poe made great use of this tradition of license being=0A> > extended= in travel literature and works on such subjects as=0A> conchology--for=0A>= > Lautreamont's Chants de Maldoror are constructed with vast swathes of=0A= > pure=0A> > plagiarism, cheerfully mixed in with le Comte's Baroque treatm= ents of the=0A> > Gothic tradition from earlier in the same century, and pl= enty of doses of=0A> > scientific jargon culled from various dust collectin= g texts.=0A> >=0A> > (Witness also the opening of Moby Dick, which consists= of the etymologies=0A> > and examples of the names of the whale through ti= me and around the globe,=0A> > among many many languages and cultures.)=0A>= >=0A> > I noted before that there is a relationship--as there is in Moby= =0A> > Dick--between the uses of appropriation and translations, mimicry an= d=0A> > copying, which make of writing potentially a form of acting, even = of an=0A> > acting in a theater constructed by the writer and in which the = writer=0A> > becomes both the director and the leading character or charact= ers. It is=0A> > possible also for the writer to become the audience as we= ll and in turn=0A> the=0A> > critics, who provide reviews, commentaries, bl= urbs, hatchet jobs and=0A> > fawning=0A> > notes of introduction for some f= avorite of theirs whom they wish to=0A> promote=0A> > in the role of a kind= of "private agent." This dispersal of the "writer"=0A> > through so many = roles in turn begins to generate ever more series of=0A> > meta-writers, me= ta-dramas, meta-commentaries until one has what is=0A> > basically=0A> > th= e long glorious history of the productions of Shakespeare's Richard the=0A>= > Third and their myriad spinoffs, including Johnny Rotten copying Laurenc= e=0A> > Olivier's Richard in the film version for his creation of the chara= cter=0A> and=0A> > existence as a performer on stage of--Johnny Rotten, who= in his turn is=0A> > ranting and attacking the Queen.=0A> >=0A> > This the= atricality of a writing which makes use of appropriations and=0A> > transla= tions (including invented ones) means that the "author" does not=0A> > "die= " but instead becomes an actor, in which the presence of other voices=0A> >= begins to issue through the throat and the writing of "some one else" to= =0A> > come from the hands. The actor whom is the role that the writer ha= s=0A> > become, speaks lines which are--whose?--The writer's? the actor's?= the=0A> > role's? And out of these emerges a writing which is a fiction = which is=0A> at=0A> > the same time real, or a reality which is fictional, = and al the while is=0A> > performing an activity which is a writing, a gest= ural, visceral, sonic=0A> and=0A> > visual action writing which may in fact= exist "nowhere at all" but as the=0A> > non-writings of a non-writer who r= egards thinking and writing as the=0A> same,=0A> > just as imagined writing= may exist in a sphere in which it has no need of=0A> > being "written down= ," as it enjoys in fact the freedom of it's not=0A> existing=0A> > on the p= age, but in the "else wheres.".=0A> >=0A> > When Bartleby says "I would pre= fer not to" and instead stands staring at=0A> > the=0A> > blank view throug= h his window of a very close pressed wall of the=0A> building=0A> > opposit= e--is it into these elsewheres that his writing now is being done?=0A> >=0A= > > So it is that a personage like my "El Colonel" and Spicer's Lorca, and= =0A> > Yasusada's Spicer as well as the Yasusada created by the reader out = of=0A> the=0A> > accoutrements that are provided for the acting out of the = role--so it is=0A> > that these "non-existent" writers mingle with actual w= riters who are=0A> > actually dead, in a theater in which ghosts are lovers= and fictional=0A> > non-ghosts consort with ghosts and the action of the w= riting is THE=0A> LIVING=0A> > of that being that one is to think of as eit= her "the author" or "the=0A> death=0A> > of the author author." For it is = not death, but dispersal across,=0A> through,=0A> > within, and away from w= riting itself that is the action of the being=0A> > formerly known as "the = author."=0A> >=0A> > Writing has lives of its own in which the writer may f= ind encounters with=0A> > it, that outside which now and then bumps into hi= m or her, and then,=0A> after=0A> > a=0A> > bit, takes off again. Or an ou= tside which is found, hidden in plain=0A> > site/sight/cite all around one,= that writing which is continually alive=0A> and=0A> > changing, moving, at= once fugitive and glimpsed by, as Robert Smithson=0A> > calls=0A> > it, "t= he artist's glance," which can be a work as real as any object, yet=0A> > n= ot exist except in the time and the "art of looking" of the artist. For=0A>= > once it becomes an object, then the artist is "signing over" the time an= d=0A> > art of looking as a possesion in which someone else "owns the art" = and in=0A> a=0A> > subtle or not so subtle way, also "owns the artist."=0A= > >=0A> > The real death of the author may then be the sense that exists at= present=0A> > of=0A> > the author, a being tied down by legal contracts to= a name, an identity=0A> > card=0A> > number, an address, a telephone, a pl= ace and status within such and such=0A> > community of other authors.=0A> >= =0A> > It is this death which a writer may well choose to "prefer not to" b= e=0A> part=0A> > of, and so find in a "fugitive" existence the ever chaning= words and=0A> lines=0A> > of a lexicon which cannot be fixed, nor colonize= d, nor turned into yet=0A> > another copyrighted name plated representation= of themselves, all ready=0A> to=0A> > charge off to court to protect a nam= e attached to a function which they=0A> may=0A> > at the same time profess = to desire the death of.=0A> >=0A> > President Reagan, the Great Communi= cator, was in his own way an=0A> > interesting example of a collector of qu= otations with an ear and eye to=0A> > creating his own form of "ideal lang= uage," one which has proved to be one=0A> > of=0A> > the most radical in it= s effects of modern times. Reagan loved=0A> quotations,=0A> > and his bed= side reading consisted of a single colossal tome of nothing=0A> but=0A> > q= uotations, organized for use on any occasion imaginable and many , one=0A> = > imagines, not yet imagined, but that one should be prepared for, after=0A= > all,=0A> > as The Great Communicator.=0A> >=0A> > Having been an actor, a= president of the Screen Actors Guild, and a long=0A> > time pitchman for W= estinghouse and GE, as well as a radio announcer and=0A> tv=0A> > celebrity= both as actor and advertiser, Reagan had no problem at all=0A> > memorizin= g hunks of quotations, plagiarized and appropriated lines and=0A> bits=0A> = > of speeches, and "was never at a loss for words," a favorite technique= =0A> > being to tell some ancient joke or story "as though for the first ti= me,"=0A> so=0A> > that it's being a quotation was not even noticed. In this= way, he=0A> appeared=0A> > to be an alert and quick-on-his-feet-thinker th= ough in fact he was just=0A> > pulling rabbits out of his well stocked hat.= =0A> >=0A> > Reagan's cheerful attitude to taking away the meanings of line= s and=0A> > replacing them with the same words, only now heard as his own, = reached a=0A> > moment of triumph in his appropriating the anti-Vietnam War= song "Born in=0A> > the USA' as his own campaign song in 1984. Suddenly, = the verses=0A> > disappeared=0A> > and all one really heard were those endl= essly repeated choruses of "Born=0A> in=0A> > the USA, Born in the USA" as = though that was all that mattered. And in=0A> > cynical way, he was right-= -after all the song was made for a movie and=0A> > appeared long after the = actual War, so how it could literally be "an=0A> > anti-Vietnam War song?" = Reagan's appropriation in a sense exposed the=0A> > song's appropriation o= f the emotions of another time and another person,=0A> > and=0A> > so the R= eagan version had as much "validity" as the original did. And, it=0A> > bei= ng a song for a movie, who better to make use of it than an old movie=0A> >= actor, one who had actually appeared in war movies, if not the actual=0A> = war,=0A> > unlike the song's author, who had done neither.=0A> >=0A> > And = Reagan even quoted in Russian, with translation--the famous "trust=0A> but= =0A> > verify" "Russian proverb" he had learned from his buddy "Mr. Gorbach= ev."=0A> > At=0A> > one point, in a pure unadulterated paroxysm of patriot= ism, he forgot=0A> > himself=0A> > and recounted his "war memories"--actual= ly scenes from a war film he had=0A> > played in. In a sense, to show the "= reality" of his emotions, he was=0A> > "quoting from memory" a "real war sc= ene" in which he had acted=0A> competently=0A> > enough to convince himself= that he had actually been in the war. In this=0A> > way, quoting from his= roles allowed him to create a non-existent=0A> biography=0A> > which al t= he same was "documented on celluloid," that could be edited=0A> into=0A> >= various versions of his official "biopic."=0A> >=0A> > In Poe's brief "ske= tch" written to accompany an illustrated plate,=0A> entitled=0A> > "Morning= on the Wissahicon," (a forerunner of Reagan's "New Morning in=0A> > Americ= a" as already a "Mourning on the Wissihicon)--a traveller takes a=0A> > jau= nt down the Wissihicaon and discovers unexpectedly, so close to the=0A> > m= etropolis of Philadelphia, a wild and savage remnant of an America=0A> alre= ady=0A> > thought to be long past, and but the figments and shards of a for= mer=0A> dream.=0A> > He sees an Indian in a wild overgrowth of unspoiled na= tural landscape,=0A> and=0A> > as he drifts by the dramatic scene, there ev= en appears a a magnificent=0A> and=0A> > authentic American deer--a sort of= proto--"Deer Hunter" moment in which=0A> the=0A> > marvelling traveler is = confirmed in his belief that at last he has found=0A> > the=0A> > old, the = real America, of the wilderness and "savages," and the untamed=0A> > wild= =0A> > life and untrimmed flora of his "native land."=0A> > Yet, the = traveller later learns, all of this has been an elaborate=0A> > and beautif= ully staged simulacra, for a wealthy Englishman has purchased=0A> > the=0A>= > former Colonial landscape, and populated it with a servant dressed and= =0A> made=0A> > up as an Indian, let the flora go carelessly to seed, and p= rovide the=0A> whole=0A> > as a topping to the cake, a domesticated deer wh= o is able to pose as a=0A> wild=0A> > one for the passersby of a Sunday. A= lready a "quotation" of what had=0A> been=0A> > a=0A> > stock vision of the= "old America" in all its "savage splendour" has=0A> > replaced=0A> > the o= riginal with a copy which "outshines" as it were not only the long=0A> > va= nished original, but has also made, on is certain, the old real estate=0A> = > greatly increase in value by looking so like what it had replaced in=0A> = terms=0A> > of what had been thought to be along lost memory with a Brand n= ew and=0A> vivid=0A> > recreation posing as indeed "the reality of today."= =0A> >=0A> > Poe's Englishman thus has accomplished already the cre= ating of an=0A> > "ideal language and landscape" made entirely of quotation= s, and for Poe,=0A> > the=0A> > "mourning" in this "morning" is that the mo= rning is in a sense not yet=0A> over=0A> > with and it has already been rep= laced by a quotation of itself, which=0A> will=0A> > "outlive" the former a= nd so in a sense give cause, if one recalls it at=0A> > all,=0A> > a "mourn= ing" for the "morning on the Wissihicon which now no longer=0A> exists=0A> = > except as indeed an ideal language and landscape "in quotation."=0A> >=0A= > > The further "mourning" is that the English, who had been the former and= =0A> for=0A> > a while defeated Colonial Power, have now wrested away what = had been=0A> known=0A> > of as an "American original" and turned it into an= English owned and=0A> > recolonized landscape preserved as a copy of the v= anished original.=0A> >=0A> > At the time that Poe began writing, ruins wer= e all the rage, due in good=0A> > part to Gothic and Romantic literature fr= om Europe--the kind of=0A> literature=0A> > and ruins Benjamin was later to= write his now famous unpublished thesis=0A> on.=0A> > Americans were in a = state of anxiety, as their country seemingly had=0A> > produced no "real ru= ins." Poe--who had attended school five years abroad=0A> > in=0A> > Scotla= nd--had seen "real ruins" and as he replied to one critic who=0A> accused= =0A> > him of writing in the manner of the Germans of the time--"Terror is = not=0A> of=0A> > Germany, but of the soul." Having witnessed the decomposi= tion and=0A> descent=0A> > into ruins via disease of his dying mother, dyin= g older brother and then=0A> > dying wife, Poe realized that the the lack o= f "real ruins" are, like=0A> > Emerson's Nature--"the blank and ruin we see= in Nature is within our=0A> > eye"--is not a lack at all but instead the b= lindness to what is in front=0A> of=0A> > one--the decomposition and decay = at the core of being, no matter how=0A> "new."=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > In his "Ph= ilosophy of Composition," Poe constructs an impeccably rational=0A> > metho= d by which he has gone about composing his poem "The Raven." No=0A> > "rom= antic ruins" or frenzy inspired him, no "inspiration," but, instead,=0A> a= =0A> > kind of calculating feat of engineering brought to bear on the=0A> >= decomposition=0A> > of the very thing that has constructed the poem--the r= ational, the=0A> logical,=0A> > the "constructive" mind. The use of quotat= ion passes from humans to a=0A> > bird--"quoth the Raven, 'Nevermore.'" Th= e bird may even be a copy of a=0A> > bird, a mechanical bird whose cries ar= e repeated by virtue of a timing=0A> > mechanism triggered by the last line= s of the verse preceding its next=0A> > outburst. Or they may indeed be th= ose of a "real bird," "quoting"=0A> > "nevermore," a phrase which plunges t= he student in the poem into one of=0A> > those ever deepening and decomposi= ng morasses of the soul which Poe=0A> depicts=0A> > also in the guise of de= composing bodies and languages also, which=0A> devolve=0A> > into black b= irds' cries (perhaps "quothing the Raven" itself--??!!) as=0A> in=0A> > The= Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym.=0A> >=0A> > Poe, with his rationally const= ructed tales in which decomposition and=0A> > irrationality begin to "take = over" and Burroughs with his fugitive=0A> > languages=0A> > whose words cha= nge their meanings frequently not only in time--from week=0A> to=0A> > week= or day to day if need be-- but also vary from place to place along=0A> the= =0A> > trail of the outlaw addict, evidence a yearning for a language which= will=0A> > elude the colonization process of appropriation and quotation. = For=0A> > Dubuffet, the "way out" of this nightmare in the "asphyxiating c= ulture"=0A> of=0A> > the art world was Art Brut as he originally found it a= nd conceived of=0A> > it--that is, Dubuffet recognized its existence there,= well having the=0A> > honesty himself as an artist to know that he himself= might learn from=0A> these=0A> > "Raw" artists while not being one himself= .=0A> >=0A> > That is, not that there will be an "authorial self" who is "o= riginal" but=0A> > that there may exist "languages" and realms of" communi= cations" in and=0A> > among and through which the possibility of a contin= ually "living" yet=0A> > "invisible" writing is "on the move," while behind= it are the deposits of=0A> > its shed skins, its discarded, outdated notat= ions, to be picked up on as=0A> > "news" and "clues" so as to distract and = confuse those would-be=0A> > appropriators and translators of a writing whi= ch does not want to be=0A> read,=0A> > and so creates "fakes" of its non-se= lf in order to provide "cover" for=0A> its=0A> > ever elusive voyages, fict= ions to amuse itself as it observes the futile=0A> > hunters continually be= led round and round in circles, deciphering=0A> > non-signs=0A> > as signs= and elaborate scrawls as "lucid notations" of a "lost language"=0A> or=0A>= > of a "new language" which they alone will become the possessors of the= =0A> > secrets of, the sole appropriators and translators of, the alpha and= =0A> omega=0A> > of a literature which now is thought to "belong to history= and=0A> > civilization"=0A> > and which instead is simply an empty wooden = horse, a decoy duck, while=0A> > somewhere, elsewhere, the writing leads li= ves of its own.=0A> >=0A> > (Note: I just found Wyston Curnow's question re= a genealogy of the=0A> > appropriation use of today--=0A> >=0A> > the issu= e of appropriation, as noted, begins to change with the=0A> > introduction= =0A> > and spread of copyright laws, as with the acceleration of the produ= ction=0A> > of=0A> > copies in themselves--=0A> > Benjamin formulates his q= uestions re "The Work of Art in the Age of=0A> > Mechanical Reproduction" = close to a hundred years after Poe has begun=0A> > doing=0A> > so. Hawthor= ne, writing in the 1840's roughly, in The House of Seven=0A> > Gables,=0A> = > already has as a major figure a Daguerreotypist who provides, along with= =0A> > the=0A> > narrator, commentaries on the art of the photograph in com= parison with=0A> that=0A> > of painting--that is, in terms of their status = as not solely copies of=0A> > persons and scenes, but also as methods direc= ted towards revealing what=0A> is=0A> > otherwise hidden to the eye of an o= bserver. The "composition" of a=0A> > daguerreotype then, becomes a form o= f decomposition of not only a painted=0A> > image, but as well of the "imag= e of the person" themselves--"revealing"=0A> > aspects hidden not only to o= thers but also perhaps to themselves. As a=0A> > "reversed mirror image" i= n a sense, it gives an oddly "corrected" image=0A> of=0A> > that image whic= h one had previously supposed one was seeing as others do.=0A> >=0A> > The = very decomposition of the House itself becomes as it were a method of=0A> >= "letting in more light" via the cracked and fissured surfaces, which is=0A= > the=0A> > "pencil of light" with which the camera writes into existence a= new=0A> method=0A> > of representing things not only singly, but serially,= or, as in the=0A> famous=0A> > mirror scenes in Citizen Kane and The Lady = from Shanghai--an endless=0A> series=0A> > of mirrorings of the self trappe= d in the light of the moment which is=0A> > turning it into the past as the= figure moves before the --and into--the=0A> > hall=0A> > of mirrors.=0A> >= =0A> > One might begin with an examination of many of the texts of the "Cla= ssic=0A> > American Literature" (D.H Lawrence) as the first literature to i= n a sense=0A> > compose via decomposition and in so doing decompose the "fu= ture" of its=0A> own=0A> > literature before it has happened. (Rather than= being a deconstruction=0A> > avant la lettre, as Poe's work has furnished = examinations for, it is a=0A> > decomposition of the work of time on things= before they have begun to=0A> > exist.)=0A> >=0A> > One finds that already= a century and a half ago and more, there already=0A> > exist in this Class= ic Literature the contemporary the issues of copying,=0A> > appropriation, = translations, quotations, cataloging, "secret messages,"=0A> > "messages in= code," the examination of handwriting itself as a method of=0A> > literary= "criticism," the centrality of the role of death, the appearance=0A> > of= =0A> > "intelligent machines" and "psychic communications" as a form of=0A>= scientific=0A> > possibility--the ghostly, the after-effects existences, o= f unknown=0A> writings=0A> > and languages which haunt the forests and wild= ernesses, and as well are=0A> > still living among them in many vast areas,= the complimentary American=0A> > forms=0A> > of Gigantism (Walt Whitman, P= aul Bunyan, Earthworks) and the Minimalist=0A> > (Emily Dickinson)--as well= as the use throughout American popular art of=0A> > the=0A> > copy of an o= bject to represent the trade or concept for which the=0A> object's=0A> > co= py is supposed to stand. (The vast and eccentric systems of signs used=0A>= > in=0A> > the US a hundred fifty years ago are basically the creation of = a three=0A> > dimensional sculptural-visual poetry of incredible variety an= d ingenuity.=0A> > In a sense, it is a writing for persons who may not actu= ally know how to=0A> > read--in any language--or simply in English--)=0A> >= =0A> > One of the aspects of this writing is that it in ways is more relate= d to=0A> > Art=0A> > Brut and Burroughs' fugitive languages, than to to the= more confining and=0A> > constrained of the commonly in use American examp= les of today, as it sees=0A> > and makes use of everything as writing. Thi= s is neither "the world as=0A> > text"=0A> > nor "the text as world" or tod= ay's rather fundamentalist and curiously=0A> > Puritan conception of a "mat= erial word" on the page, with the attendant=0A> > "sacredness of the book, = the text," but something blasphemous (Melville=0A> to=0A> > Hawthorne, on = completing Moby Dick: "I have written a wicked book and=0A> am=0A> > as cl= ean as the Lamb")- --that is, that the world is alive with writings=0A> > w= hich are moving and changing at every moment, and themselves exist on=0A> >= living beings as well as on insentient "materials." (Melville also=0A> wr= ites=0A> > to Hawthorne, that the very hand which lifts now the pen that it= has just=0A> > written with, is not the same hand that just formed the las= t completed=0A> > letter of script, and will not be the same as the one tha= t writes the=0A> > next--)=0A> >=0A> > Tattoos, scrimshaw, the Scarlet Lett= er, the letters of the words of an=0A> > unknown language carved into the = black rock of an island, (in Pym;=0A> Robert=0A> > Smithson wrote of these = as "perfect proto Earthwords" for a new art=0A> > criticism")--the disappea= ring inks and concealed treasure maps, the=0A> Goldbug=0A> > and its revela= tions--as well as the "readings" of Nature by Thoreau and=0A> > Emerson, an= d the observations as signs in turn of the "Leaves of Grass"=0A> > which ar= e the tongues of the sleepers below ground, and, beyond that,=0A> "the=0A> = > untold, the unwritten war" that "Will Never Be Written in the Books" of= =0A> > Whitman's "Specimen Days, or the insects and flowers in Emily Dickin= son=0A> > which form the kind of private language which she uses to "but cr= oss the=0A> > room and be in the Spice Islands" (the continual voyage theme= )--all of=0A> > these=0A> > are writings which extend writing far beyond th= e "normaliiizing"=0A> > conventions=0A> > of the limits of the page--=0A> >= =0A> > This vision of a language which is continually in movement, continua= lly=0A> > changing, concealing itself, reappearing, being thrown overboard,= or=0A> > bobbing=0A> > about as the carved coffin bearing the absent Queeq= ueg's script and the=0A> > sole=0A> > survivor and author to be of the tale= of the late Pequod--is itself from=0A> a=0A> > period in which the Americ= an language was in flux, not yet standardized=0A> > and=0A> > fixed into t= he defined and set stone of Webster's. A chaos in spelling,=0A> > punctuati= on and grammar was perfectly acceptable, as were the wildly=0A> > varying= =0A> > degrees of abilities of readers to decipher the riot of signs and sy= mbols=0A> > running amok all around them, and so was a sense of writing as = something=0A> > alive and and unfixed, nomadic and tending, like Art Brut a= nd the=0A> addict's=0A> > fugitive Jargons, towards an anarchy and "Civil D= isobedience" which have=0A> > become increasingly tamed, toned down and tim= id.=0A> >=0A> > For example, consider that today, a work of appropriation i= n a conceptual=0A> > sense is proffered as that of "unoriginality, copying"= and the "author"=0A> > thus=0A> > no longer "exists" except as a functiona= ry, a filer of data, a sorter of=0A> > files. This is precisely the work w= hich Bartleby is assigned to, and=0A> which=0A> > he one day simply decides= that he would "prefer not to" do anymore.=0A> >=0A> > Bartleby's act of Di= sobedience he pays for by being incarcerated in the=0A> > tombs, there to d= ie, refusing all the while to acept anything offered out=0A> > of=0A> > a s= ense of obligation by the employer who had put him there in the first=0A> >= place, as a last resort against homelessness.=0A> >=0A> > In a peculiar wa= y, may one not say that Bartleby is a kind of "political=0A> > prisoner," (= civil disobediance since 9/11 carrying much heavier potential=0A> > penalti= es) in the sense that he will no longer carry out the=0A> contemporary=0A>= > (today's) idea of what it means to be an author-cum-death-of-the-author?= =0A> > Instead, he would "prefer not to" be a writer who writes as the deat= h of=0A> > the=0A> > author as it exists in the conceptual formulation of c= opyist and filer,=0A> > even=0A> > if rejecting this method of writing-as-t= he-death-of-the-author means the=0A> > loss of his freedom, and following t= hat, of his life.=0A> >=0A> > In short, Bartleby would "prefer not to" BE a= =0A> "death-of-the-author-author"=0A> > but instead simply to die.=0A> >=0A= > > here are some examples of a few of the possiblities themselves so myria= d=0A> > and=0A> > ever expanding of the little i suggest in the above=0A> = >=0A> >=0A> > Conceptual Poetry and its Others=0A> > UA Poetry Center=0A> >= May 29-31, 2008=0A> > David-Baptiste Chirot<=0A> >=0A> http://davidbaptist= echirot.blogspot.com/2008/05/conceptual-poetry-and-its-others.html=0A> > >= =0A> >=0A> > David-Baptiste Chirot: "Waterboarding &=0A> > Poetry"=0A> > Wordforword #13 Spring 2008=0A> > = (also has Visual Poetry by chirot)=0A> > Poems from Guant=C3=A1namo=0A> > T= he Detainees Speak=0A> > David Baptite Chirot <=0A> http://www.kaurab.com/e= nglish/books/guantanamo.html=0A> > >*=0A> > No*=0A> > KAURAB Translation Si= te=0A> >=0A> > David-Baptiste Chirot=0A> > *El Colonel's Composition Book*= =0A> >=0A> >=0A> http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2008/10/david-baptiste-chi= rot-el-colonels.html=0A> >=0A> > 20080530 David-Baptiste Chirot=0A> >=0A> >= =0A> http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2008/05/david-baptiste-chirot-el-colon= el-wakes.html=0A> >=0A> > *El Colonel wakes up from dreaming*=0A> >=0A> > = 1. [PDF<=0A> >=0A> http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=3DA0oGkjhGqwxJKXIB.2NXNyoA;_y= lu=3DX3oDMTByZWgwN285BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkAw--/SIG=3D11rat3e= an/EXP=3D1225653446/**http%3a//www.dusie.org/ElColonelsmile.pdf=0A> > >=0A>= > ] developing poetic ideas =0A= > > 3647k - Adobe PDF - View as=0A> > html<=0A> >=0A> http://rds.yahoo.co= m/_ylt=3DA0oGkjhGqwxJKXIB_GNXNyoA/SIG=3D16nm69t56/EXP=3D1225653446/**http%3= a//66.218.69.11/search/cache%3fei=3DUTF-8%26p=3Del%2bcolonel%2bsmiles%26fr= =3Dytff1-divx%26u=3Dwww.dusie.org/ElColonelsmile.pdf%26w=3Del%2bcolonel%2bc= olonels%2bsmiles%26d=3DXMYTYULURrCT%26icp=3D1%26.intl=3Dus=0A> > >=0A> > = *El* *Colonel* *Smiles*. For Roberto Bolano *...* *El* *Colonel*=0A> > *smi= les*.=0A> > Pleasure birds fly in exotic jungles, among tableaux of hacke= d and=0A> *...*=0A> > www.*dusie.org*/ElColonelsmile.pdf=0A> >=0A> >=0A> = >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > On Fri,= Oct 31, 2008 at 1:57 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat > >wrote= :=0A> >=0A> > > Walter Benjamin's *The Arcades Project* and Montaigne's *Es= says* are=0A> > > masterpieces made mostly of quotations, the writer's own = thoughts=0A> weaving=0A> > > around them.=0A> > >=0A> > > Translation, if p= roperly understood as the creation of parallel=0A> > meta-texts=0A> > > rat= her than as copies, is a genre of appropriation. W. Benjamin's=0A> "ideal= =0A> > > language" -which is his concept of what translation involves- is= =0A> > > essentially a hypertext composed entirely of appropriated texts.= =0A> > >=0A> > > Ciao,=0A> > >=0A> > > Murat=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> >= =0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > The Poetics List is moderated & = does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines=0A> > & sub/unsub info: htt= p://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> >=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Ch= eck guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome= .html=0A>=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated = & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.= buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:24:31 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline David, At the bifurcation they part Y one sling, yet in my heart one sling shot. The word "After" in Spicer's poem does not only mean "in imitation of" or "in homage to." It also means "in pursuit of; it has a predatory connotation. In fact, Lorca's reactions from the grave to Spicer's solicitations is one of annoyance." A true translation is always an act of violence -loving or otherwise, that is the issue- against the autonomy of the original. It literally must tear it up -fragment it- to open it up to a future life, the life of the text. This fragmentation does have the element= s of collage. Are you familiar with Eliot Weinberger's essay, "Notes On Translation" [?] of about fifteen years ago about which Kent Johnson wrote an article which appears in the last issue of ALTA's *The Translation Revie= w *? In your comments, you focus on what a text loses in translation, through misreading (intentional or not) what gets silenced . My feeling is you are particularly thinking of the Guantanamo translations. One should also think of what it gains: what starts as a "complete," closed text opens and become= s a potential one, which is its life through time. A bad translator sees, detects no resistance in the original. If so, as you state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a text totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, the very reverse of what I am talking about. An original resits to be translated. That's why Benjamin says what gives a text translability is distance. The translator translates, integrates that distance. That is why a translation has a tangential relationship to the second language, the distance, expressed as style, existing as an ideal, a template of potentiality for it= . Ciao, Murat On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 5:10 PM, David Chirot wrote= : > Dear Murat-- > > Many thanks for your response. > > First-- > Spicer's work, like a series i've done--is "After"--which is to say--not = a > translation. > > I do not know really, but as far as I am aware, the Spicer "After Lorca" > aren't translations at all, nor are my "After Rimbaud's Illuminations"-- > nor would be Yasusada's "After Spicer"-- > > they are works which are inspired by aspects of the originals, with which > one lives intensely for a period of time, whether themselves (originals) = as > in fact already translations, or one's own readings in the originals, > without having the desire to translate them, but rather use them as a mea= ns > to show one's love, respect, thanks, to the other poet, and at the same > time, launch what one has been inspired by into the trajectories of one's > own work, life, spirit etc-- > > I agree with you about the form of translation which Benjamin writes of. > My > point is that in thing as complex and myriad faceted--or hydra headed!--a= s > translation and appropriation, rather than decide on solely one approach = at > the expense of investigating several or many as possible of the others, i= s > to in a sense make too narrow an aperture for, my one so put it, > "Illumination." > > Translations can lie as easily as any other form of writing--a translator > knows the correct meaning, and, not liking it, as it does not fit in with > the "message"which the translator wants the text to bear--ignores that an= d > instead chooses another word, set of words, phrases, etc--and so alters > completely the meaning of the original. > > As in the kinds of commentaries and reserachs to which Barry alluded, i'v= e > spent eons digging about in various series of translations, footnotes, > commentaries, old dictionaries and so forth, on the trail of finding out > not > so much what actually is or is not the "original" meaning --of a poem, > word, > sign--but to have better understanding, still all too small a one, of how > through time and across various manipulations, revisions, commentaries, > controversies and theses, a poem, a line, a word may have been treated or > mis- or dis-treated---via translation. > > A great deal of the "information" that is transmitted around the world is > made up of deliberately dis-translated texts, speeches, sound bytes--in > order to foment strife, or to promote various forms of insidious illusion= s > in order to create fear and hate. > > The same may easily be done with appropriation--in my first letter i put > forth some of the uncountable reasons that are positive and why i use suc= h > methods myself and study the works of others who do. > > A very good way to study appropriation and also various methods of > translation is via collage, forms of montage as serial panels (which in > painting is very ancient method)--and also simply collecting the things o= ne > finds on a walk and making an arrangement of more of these. > > Immediately one sees how much may be changed, and so radically, by a few > simple shifts in the order of things, or which elements are contingent to > others, which dropped out, which cropped and so on-- > > Using not all that many images and torn fotos, words, letters, one may > create a series which is a form of cinema-- > or, on a single page, may take the form of a one page movie--a > simultaneously presented series which one "sees" and "reads" not linearly= , > but as a series of linked associations, leaps and intuitions. > > The reason that being aware of as many ways as one can of how these metho= ds > are used is that they do not apply "simply to art and poetry," but as wel= l > to the way in which the world one lives in is constructed. The "reality" > one is offered via texts, screens, sound, images, video,film, signs on th= e > street, is already a series on a gigantic scale of cut-ups, edits, > montages, > collages, dis and regular translations, faked and real events and texts, > images and runaway hearsay and rumor spread at instant speeds across the > world, involving in next to no time at all millions of people. > > At every step of the way one is "hailed," to use Althusser's term--(and > quite literally on our street where step someone is hailing you--with dop= e > or sex,or a person'd sure could use a smoke or some change or simply to > tell you about the demons that are possessing them--or the Lord--or > ghosts--or the Blues-- > > As a writer, "intrepid reporter," painter, collage maker-for me---all the= se > are elements, materials, and they arrive continually. Among the aspects > which are endlessly interesting are the ways in which words are used to > make > use of other people--and at the same time have them think that this is no= t > so. Of course, in listening and paying attention, one oneself is making > use > of whatever comes along! To me what are ceaselessly amazing are the > paradoxes of events, words, signs, images--how if one looks and listens > from > one vantage, things appear to be one way--and then to shift the head > slightly to the left--and see and hear how things then appear and are > heard. > And to continue doing so--toh get a smal sense of how much can be chnaged > by > just the smallest shifts-- > > Why is it that there must be one single way to view things? From each > person one may hear or not a differing reason why they have chosen to > believe in one particular way as opposed to or another. This happens wit= h > oneself--one begins to find out how many things one had taken as truths > which are and were not so at all. And if one sought the reason why at > some > point one had taken them to be so--all too often it turned out to be > something far more arbitrary than expected! A lot of the time one is > basically unlearning a great deal of the nonsense one has in one's head. > > Now, if one begins with a certain idea in mind of a doctrine of the metho= ds > one is using--then one may develop a blind spot to those things which do > not > fit the pattern, nor "back up" one's point of view, which is to be as > faithful as possible to the methodology which one believes in. > > it is mysterious beyond measure how many things that people criticize > fiction readers for--the willing suspension of disbelief--they themselves > accept without question from so and so or such and such, as though coming > from them it must be true. > > In a sense, this method of beginning from the point of view of one doctri= ne > only is a way to predetermine an outcome of the direction in which one is > going with what one is working with. One arrives where one expected, and > so > this proves that if one sets others out on this way they also will. > According to so and so who first perfected the method, of course. > > The problem is some people are not that good at following directions and > others could care less and improvise along the way and others still yet > violently oppose so and so who drew up the map. > > This is why one finds the endless series of commentaries and footnotes, > disputes and controversies--al those supplemental elements which multiply > the one orginal point of view--via all sorts of mistakes, miscues, missed > turns and out right oppostion. > > This is still the approach of a kind of single-subject author. Why not, > then, begin instead from a non-doctrine or methodology and simply begin t= o > examine in different modes of writing and in the voices and images of > differeing beings within or that one knows via observation--and so to > travel > into this other way--unknown as yet--to see where it may be going? > > One may improvise, act the part--use whatever way one likes-- > > In a way, over the letters i've written here, one may see that several > series of points of view appear--and several voices enter in--in order to > keep the way open, the movement continuing-- > > If one is not "one author"--but many, and none of them necessarily stabl= e, > fixed, either, but each one having themselves many within them-- > > Many things one may never have imagined, nor been able to express as well > at > all as this found article one could never have imagined-- these found > things--words, images, articles, clips--which one appropriates--to stand > for > themselves--in this flow of voices, writings--images-- > open to things again that are uncanny--perhaps familiar and at the same > time > unknown--or perhaps entirely new, though with stil some odd hint of a > previous non encounter deja vu occurring in the background, like the > humming > of a fly in a room on the other side of a screen with holes torn in it-- > > At one moment to be a Benjaminian translator, at the next to say one is a= n > agent of some agency, MEMRI, or the like , which is going to set about > dis-translating the same piece of writing. > > After all, mutiny may occur aboard the ship--and the captain be > overthrown--and so another method introduced--piratical--or peaceful--or > simply partying-- > > > Appropriation does not only have to do with the taking of land, of > possessions, of ideas, of a culture--but also of the soul of a > being--"possession" is not only 9 tenths of the law--but a form of > "spiritual possession"--to seize upon the spirit of a being and suck it > out--to take a foto and steal it--or like my Mohawk in-law, to know the i= f > one heard her voice on the phone, that meant the person who was not there > listening would be a spirit stealing her soul--so never to use the > telephone--or have a foto taken--or sign any documents-- > > this is the fugitive aspect of words which change continually that > Burroughs > writes or, or the element of Art Brut so admired by Dubuffet--that Smiths= on > writes of with "an artist's glance"--being able to make a work which is n= ot > an object to be possessed-- > > There are elements and aspects of writing, of "art" that do not want to b= e > known, don't care to be--possessed--do not want to be named-- > > And yet to exist-- > > to have lives of their own outside -- > > so many lives lived in an instant and one is forced into a strait jacket = of > words-- > > to have a freedom of that life's own-- > without anyone or anything "liberating " it-- > > Sometimes it is not that one "misread" something--but that one read it al= l > too well-- > > (and perhaps wants or wanted no part of it--) > > actaully here ia little parable that is interesting: > > i read of a baseball player who early in the season was traded from one > team > to another, "for a player to be named later." > > eventually, "later" came, nearing the trading deadline late in the season= -- > and who would be sent to the other team as the player to be named later-- > > why, none other than the same player who had been traded away! > > the only time in baseball history that a trade indisputably worked out to > being "equal" for the team making the trade- > > an interesting event--to be traded for oneself! > > as yogi berra, the great hall of fame catcher, 3 time MVP, former yankee > manager and famous American improvisationsalist on the mother tongue tol= d > the graduating class of a college in his native new jersey-- > > when you come to a fork in the road--take it! > > which is what one essays to do in examing these questions-- > take care at the fork in the road and the fork in the tongue! > and listen closely and learn-- > > On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat > wrote: > > > David, > > > > Just a quick response to your post before I read it more carefully and > > comment on it in greater detail later: > > I understand very well your seeing the possibility of exploitation with= in > > the idea of appropriation. There is no question historically that has > > happened often enough, erasing the "original" in the process. > > > > I am referring to something quite different. Do not forget that in his > > matrix of "translation" and "ideal language" Benjamin sees translation = as > a > > "loose gown" or a collection of shards/fragments. Dissolution, > particularly > > of a close system, is at the heart of his concept of tramnslation. In > > *After > > Lorca* Spicer picks that aspect of Benjamin's thought. (I have an essay > > exactly on that relation between Benjamin and Spicer that can be found = on > > line in Lucas's Cypherjournal website. > > > > On the other hand, I do believe that every translation, in my sense of > the > > word, starts with a "misreading" which cracks open the original by > > fragmenting it. The target language also must "misread" itself cracking > > itself open. This way both languages undergo transformations, creating = a > > synthesis by joining in the space of ideal language, > > > > What translation does is to explore, crack open *latent* possibilities = in > > both languages which the close system of each suppresses. Translation > > becomes a linguistic act of liberation. Here is the translation paradox= : > a > > translation misreads, but must/can never lie about the original. > > Misreadings > > will only reveal, liberate what is inherent in them. That is how they > > become > > the very reverse of exploitation. > > > > "Translation is foreignness in a language bending to contain its weight= ." > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:11 PM, David Chirot > > wrote: > > > > > In a note regarding the appended glossary at the book's end, William = S > > > Burroughs in his Introduction to Junkie (1953) writes: "A final > > glossary, > > > therefore, may not be made of words whose intentions are fugitive." > > > > > > One aspect of both translation and appropriation is precisely that wh= at > > is > > > done with the original text is NOT to copy, as Murat notes, but indee= d > to > > > create meta-narratives of and/or with/for them, and not necessarily > > > parallel > > > ones, either. > > > > > > This last point, for me at any rate, is important to keep in mind, fo= r > in > > > examing the questions of translations and appropriations, one needs t= o > > > remain aware of the possiblities for these to be used in ways which, > > while > > > being "camouflaged" perhaps as "artistic," may instead be directed in > > more > > > sinister directions. As usual, there are a good many more than "two > > sides > > > to a story," and it is in fact this very potentiality, these many > > > possiblities, and the uncertainty principle in regards to which are > being > > > activated--that makes the activity of working with as well as studyin= g > > such > > > materials a more complex and subtly varieagted one than may at first = be > > > supposed. > > > > > > For example, in referring to Walter Benjamin and his "Arcades Project= ," > > > Murat notes Benjamin's envisioning a work made entirely of quotations= , > > > which > > > would be an aspect of the philosopher's conception of an "ideal > > language." > > > > > > To open some of the myraid possiblities in any given moment in the > > act/work > > > of apprropriation and/or translation, let's use for a few moments the > > point > > > of view of Burroughs' words whose intentions are fugitive. > > > > > > The figure of "Benjamin's Baudelaire," which has become a more famili= ar > > and > > > preferred "Baudelaire" for many English speaking readers than the > actual > > > (so > > > to speak) Baudelaire and his actual works, is a "living example" of > this > > > form of "ideal language" functioning in the direction of a totalizing > > > system, in which the "colonization" of the past is carried out in ord= er > > to > > > draw from it the indications of the immediate or eventual triumph of > the > > > translator/appropriator's ideology/theology/theory of preference. Th= at > > is, > > > one amasses and arranges the objects and quotations of the past in su= ch > a > > > way as to become the accurate predictors of a future envisioned via > rear > > > projection and reverse engineering. Thus, perhaps, a new form of > > astrology > > > may be created as well as "theses on history." > > > > > > One might look at this from the point of view of a language "whose > > > intentions are fugitive" and recognize in this "ideal language" the > dream > > > of > > > an entropic steady state of "security" in all senses of the word, in > > which > > > the desire for a homogeneity is realized. > > > > > > One may examine both translations and appropriations in terms of what > > frame > > > the translator/appropriator is working to insert the "original" work > > into. > > > That is, the frame of the translator/appropriator's conception of an > > "ideal > > > language," whether of poetry, history, ideology, theory etc. within > the > > > language and society in which they would like their > > > translation/appropriation to "succeed," to "convince the reader of th= e > > > value > > > of the work beyond its original words and tongue." > > > > > > In a fitting sense, since this work may involve legal difficulties at > > some > > > point, the translator/appropriator may become a from of advocate for > the > > > "case" of the work of so-and-so to be included in the files of the > > "ideal > > > language" and the culture which it is participating in the formation > of. > > > To > > > "argue the case," so to speak, it may be necessary to withhold some > > > evidence, and exaggerate perhaps the importance of other bits and > pieces > > of > > > "evidences." To alter the meaning of a word here or mute the tone of > > > another there. Small shifts spread over the course of a poem, a > > > collection, > > > a body of work, accrue and accumulate and so build from within the > > un-ideal > > > original the structure of its "meta-narrative," a new and ideal shini= ng > > > City > > > from out of the shell of the old, to paraphrase the IWW slogan. > > > > > > At a certain level then, what is sought for via such aspects of > > > translations > > > and/or appropriations is to produce works which are in conformity wit= h > > the > > > standards desired by the society/culture into which they are being > > > introduced, at least for "the time being," and hopefully "for a long > time > > > to > > > come." > > > > > > The underlying impetus of this might be thought of as the resistance = to > > the > > > uncertainty principle, and the desire for a "security" even in what a= re > > > called "risky" or "experimental" phases and forms of work. > > > > > > It is in this sense that an artist like Dubuffet observes the action > and > > > writes of an "asphyxiating culture." The "Arcades Project" from this > > > perspective becomes an immense temple-tomb, a colossal assemblage of > > > bric-a-brac on the order of Citizen Kane's Xanadu, a monument to > another > > > aspect of the Benjaminian cosmology, "The Collector." > > > > > > "The Collector" aspect of constructing the "ideal language," via > > > translations, appropriations, is that one becomes a tourist and, if s= o > > > capable, a tour-guide, which is what many of Benjamin's works basical= ly > > > are. The Situationists, who conceived of themselves as drifters amon= g > > the > > > psycho-geographies of the urbanscapes, setting out on the long patrol= s > of > > > the derive , scoffed at both conventional and "cultured/philosophical= " > > > tourism as "tourism in other people's misery." From this point of > view, > > > translation/appropriation becomes the collecting and "taking > possession" > > in > > > all senses of the word, of photos, images, icons, objects, texts, > > musics, > > > dances which paradoxically belong to others who can't have them, or > can't > > > have them in the way that the one "taking possession" of them does. > > > > > > The irony is that in the age of "intellectual property," the "death = of > > the > > > author" should become such an idealized trope, because if anything, t= he > > > "author" is more alive than ever. > > > > > > Again, the spectre of the legal profession arises, the one in which > > > Bartleby > > > made his decision to "prefer not to" be a copyist anymore, and simply > > > become, literally, "silent as the Tombs" in which appropriately named > > penal > > > institution he perished, he, the former handler of "dead letters." F= or > > > today one witnesses the spectacle of legal entanglements regarding th= e > > > appropriation or translation of authors' works, or of their > > appropriations > > > of others' appropriations, and a Ron Silliman can threaten to sue an > > > anthology which attaches his name (owned by him) to a poem not writte= n > by > > > him. (What would happen if a poem written by him were published as a= n > > > anonymous piece, or attributed to some totally unknown, perhaps even > > > non-existent "name"?) > > > > > > Until late in the 19th century, there was no copyright to protect > > American > > > authors from having their works pirated and distributed to great prof= it > > by > > > publishers aboard, especially in England. An aspect of the plagiaris= m > > that > > > so obsessed Poe was that an author could steal willy nilly from > another, > > > and > > > so make money off another's labor without having to do the actual wor= k > at > > > all. The attacks Poe made on plagiarism were not always so much abo= ut > > > "intellectual property" and "originality" as about the artist being > paid > > > for > > > their time and labor and sharing in the profits it created for the > > > publishers. Poe understood this from his own experience, as he had > been > > > employed at one point on basically plagiarizing an entire book on > > > conchology, adding just enough "original" touches here and there to > make > > > the > > > pirated edition appear "not the same, but new," for the benefit and > > profit > > > of the publishers. This form of "authorship" was fairly common at the > > time, > > > and one that was a logical progression from the earlier heyday of > Travel > > > Literature (discussed in a previous post.) > > > > > > In the earlier phases, travel literature ranged wildly from rather > crude > > > cobblings of roughly smacked together bits and pieces of others' work= s, > > > with, if the cobbler of the work had some imagination, some "previous= ly > > > unrecorded" and especially thrilling and "New! Astonishing! Marvels > > Never > > > Before Seen nor Heard Of!" thrown into the mix to add to the sales an= d > > also > > > to the ever more hallucinatory visions of the lands on the other side > of > > > the > > > Atlantic, the Indian or Pacific Oceans. > > > (I recently came across an advertisement trumpeting the latest editio= n > of > > > an > > > old classic of the Travel Literature days, one which is made up of a > good > > > bit of plagiarism, some invention and some pure nonsense that the > Indians > > > had fobbed off on the gullible explorers. The book is still in print > as > > > having yet a value as a guidebook to the areas it concerns! ) > > > > > > Lautreamont and Poe made great use of this tradition of license being > > > extended in travel literature and works on such subjects as > > conchology--for > > > Lautreamont's Chants de Maldoror are constructed with vast swathes of > > pure > > > plagiarism, cheerfully mixed in with le Comte's Baroque treatments of > the > > > Gothic tradition from earlier in the same century, and plenty of dose= s > of > > > scientific jargon culled from various dust collecting texts. > > > > > > (Witness also the opening of Moby Dick, which consists of the > etymologies > > > and examples of the names of the whale through time and around the > globe, > > > among many many languages and cultures.) > > > > > > I noted before that there is a relationship--as there is in Moby > > > Dick--between the uses of appropriation and translations, mimicry and > > > copying, which make of writing potentially a form of acting, even of > an > > > acting in a theater constructed by the writer and in which the writer > > > becomes both the director and the leading character or characters. I= t > is > > > possible also for the writer to become the audience as well and in tu= rn > > the > > > critics, who provide reviews, commentaries, blurbs, hatchet jobs and > > > fawning > > > notes of introduction for some favorite of theirs whom they wish to > > promote > > > in the role of a kind of "private agent." This dispersal of the > "writer" > > > through so many roles in turn begins to generate ever more series of > > > meta-writers, meta-dramas, meta-commentaries until one has what is > > > basically > > > the long glorious history of the productions of Shakespeare's Richard > the > > > Third and their myriad spinoffs, including Johnny Rotten copying > Laurence > > > Olivier's Richard in the film version for his creation of the charact= er > > and > > > existence as a performer on stage of--Johnny Rotten, who in his turn = is > > > ranting and attacking the Queen. > > > > > > This theatricality of a writing which makes use of appropriations and > > > translations (including invented ones) means that the "author" does n= ot > > > "die" but instead becomes an actor, in which the presence of other > voices > > > begins to issue through the throat and the writing of "some one else" > to > > > come from the hands. The actor whom is the role that the writer has > > > become, speaks lines which are--whose?--The writer's? the actor's? > the > > > role's? And out of these emerges a writing which is a fiction which = is > > at > > > the same time real, or a reality which is fictional, and al the while > is > > > performing an activity which is a writing, a gestural, visceral, soni= c > > and > > > visual action writing which may in fact exist "nowhere at all" but as > the > > > non-writings of a non-writer who regards thinking and writing as the > > same, > > > just as imagined writing may exist in a sphere in which it has no nee= d > of > > > being "written down," as it enjoys in fact the freedom of it's not > > existing > > > on the page, but in the "else wheres.". > > > > > > When Bartleby says "I would prefer not to" and instead stands staring > at > > > the > > > blank view through his window of a very close pressed wall of the > > building > > > opposite--is it into these elsewheres that his writing now is being > done? > > > > > > So it is that a personage like my "El Colonel" and Spicer's Lorca, an= d > > > Yasusada's Spicer as well as the Yasusada created by the reader out o= f > > the > > > accoutrements that are provided for the acting out of the role--so it > is > > > that these "non-existent" writers mingle with actual writers who are > > > actually dead, in a theater in which ghosts are lovers and fictional > > > non-ghosts consort with ghosts and the action of the writing is THE > > LIVING > > > of that being that one is to think of as either "the author" or "the > > death > > > of the author author." For it is not death, but dispersal across, > > through, > > > within, and away from writing itself that is the action of the being > > > formerly known as "the author." > > > > > > Writing has lives of its own in which the writer may find encounters > with > > > it, that outside which now and then bumps into him or her, and then, > > after > > > a > > > bit, takes off again. Or an outside which is found, hidden in plain > > > site/sight/cite all around one, that writing which is continually ali= ve > > and > > > changing, moving, at once fugitive and glimpsed by, as Robert Smithso= n > > > calls > > > it, "the artist's glance," which can be a work as real as any object, > yet > > > not exist except in the time and the "art of looking" of the artist. > For > > > once it becomes an object, then the artist is "signing over" the time > and > > > art of looking as a possesion in which someone else "owns the art" an= d > in > > a > > > subtle or not so subtle way, also "owns the artist." > > > > > > The real death of the author may then be the sense that exists at > present > > > of > > > the author, a being tied down by legal contracts to a name, an identi= ty > > > card > > > number, an address, a telephone, a place and status within such and > such > > > community of other authors. > > > > > > It is this death which a writer may well choose to "prefer not to" be > > part > > > of, and so find in a "fugitive" existence the ever chaning words and > > lines > > > of a lexicon which cannot be fixed, nor colonized, nor turned into ye= t > > > another copyrighted name plated representation of themselves, all rea= dy > > to > > > charge off to court to protect a name attached to a function which th= ey > > may > > > at the same time profess to desire the death of. > > > > > > President Reagan, the Great Communicator, was in his own way an > > > interesting example of a collector of quotations with an ear and eye > to > > > creating his own form of "ideal language," one which has proved to be > one > > > of > > > the most radical in its effects of modern times. Reagan loved > > quotations, > > > and his bedside reading consisted of a single colossal tome of nothin= g > > but > > > quotations, organized for use on any occasion imaginable and many , o= ne > > > imagines, not yet imagined, but that one should be prepared for, afte= r > > all, > > > as The Great Communicator. > > > > > > Having been an actor, a president of the Screen Actors Guild, and a > long > > > time pitchman for Westinghouse and GE, as well as a radio announcer a= nd > > tv > > > celebrity both as actor and advertiser, Reagan had no problem at all > > > memorizing hunks of quotations, plagiarized and appropriated lines an= d > > bits > > > of speeches, and "was never at a loss for words," a favorite techniq= ue > > > being to tell some ancient joke or story "as though for the first > time," > > so > > > that it's being a quotation was not even noticed. In this way, he > > appeared > > > to be an alert and quick-on-his-feet-thinker though in fact he was ju= st > > > pulling rabbits out of his well stocked hat. > > > > > > Reagan's cheerful attitude to taking away the meanings of lines and > > > replacing them with the same words, only now heard as his own, reache= d > a > > > moment of triumph in his appropriating the anti-Vietnam War song "Bor= n > in > > > the USA' as his own campaign song in 1984. Suddenly, the verses > > > disappeared > > > and all one really heard were those endlessly repeated choruses of > "Born > > in > > > the USA, Born in the USA" as though that was all that mattered. And = in > > > cynical way, he was right--after all the song was made for a movie an= d > > > appeared long after the actual War, so how it could literally be "an > > > anti-Vietnam War song?" Reagan's appropriation in a sense exposed th= e > > > song's appropriation of the emotions of another time and another > person, > > > and > > > so the Reagan version had as much "validity" as the original did. And= , > it > > > being a song for a movie, who better to make use of it than an old > movie > > > actor, one who had actually appeared in war movies, if not the actual > > war, > > > unlike the song's author, who had done neither. > > > > > > And Reagan even quoted in Russian, with translation--the famous "trus= t > > but > > > verify" "Russian proverb" he had learned from his buddy "Mr. > Gorbachev." > > > At > > > one point, in a pure unadulterated paroxysm of patriotism, he forgot > > > himself > > > and recounted his "war memories"--actually scenes from a war film he > had > > > played in. In a sense, to show the "reality" of his emotions, he was > > > "quoting from memory" a "real war scene" in which he had acted > > competently > > > enough to convince himself that he had actually been in the war. In > this > > > way, quoting from his roles allowed him to create a non-existent > > biography > > > which al the same was "documented on celluloid," that could be edite= d > > into > > > various versions of his official "biopic." > > > > > > In Poe's brief "sketch" written to accompany an illustrated plate, > > entitled > > > "Morning on the Wissahicon," (a forerunner of Reagan's "New Morning i= n > > > America" as already a "Mourning on the Wissihicon)--a traveller takes= a > > > jaunt down the Wissihicaon and discovers unexpectedly, so close to th= e > > > metropolis of Philadelphia, a wild and savage remnant of an America > > already > > > thought to be long past, and but the figments and shards of a former > > dream. > > > He sees an Indian in a wild overgrowth of unspoiled natural landscape= , > > and > > > as he drifts by the dramatic scene, there even appears a a magnificen= t > > and > > > authentic American deer--a sort of proto--"Deer Hunter" moment in whi= ch > > the > > > marvelling traveler is confirmed in his belief that at last he has > found > > > the > > > old, the real America, of the wilderness and "savages," and the untam= ed > > > wild > > > life and untrimmed flora of his "native land." > > > Yet, the traveller later learns, all of this has been an > elaborate > > > and beautifully staged simulacra, for a wealthy Englishman has > purchased > > > the > > > former Colonial landscape, and populated it with a servant dressed an= d > > made > > > up as an Indian, let the flora go carelessly to seed, and provide the > > whole > > > as a topping to the cake, a domesticated deer who is able to pose as = a > > wild > > > one for the passersby of a Sunday. Already a "quotation" of what had > > been > > > a > > > stock vision of the "old America" in all its "savage splendour" has > > > replaced > > > the original with a copy which "outshines" as it were not only the lo= ng > > > vanished original, but has also made, on is certain, the old real > estate > > > greatly increase in value by looking so like what it had replaced in > > terms > > > of what had been thought to be along lost memory with a Brand new and > > vivid > > > recreation posing as indeed "the reality of today." > > > > > > Poe's Englishman thus has accomplished already the creating o= f > an > > > "ideal language and landscape" made entirely of quotations, and for > Poe, > > > the > > > "mourning" in this "morning" is that the morning is in a sense not ye= t > > over > > > with and it has already been replaced by a quotation of itself, which > > will > > > "outlive" the former and so in a sense give cause, if one recalls it = at > > > all, > > > a "mourning" for the "morning on the Wissihicon which now no longer > > exists > > > except as indeed an ideal language and landscape "in quotation." > > > > > > The further "mourning" is that the English, who had been the former a= nd > > for > > > a while defeated Colonial Power, have now wrested away what had been > > known > > > of as an "American original" and turned it into an English owned and > > > recolonized landscape preserved as a copy of the vanished original. > > > > > > At the time that Poe began writing, ruins were all the rage, due in > good > > > part to Gothic and Romantic literature from Europe--the kind of > > literature > > > and ruins Benjamin was later to write his now famous unpublished thes= is > > on. > > > Americans were in a state of anxiety, as their country seemingly had > > > produced no "real ruins." Poe--who had attended school five years > abroad > > > in > > > Scotland--had seen "real ruins" and as he replied to one critic who > > accused > > > him of writing in the manner of the Germans of the time--"Terror is n= ot > > of > > > Germany, but of the soul." Having witnessed the decomposition and > > descent > > > into ruins via disease of his dying mother, dying older brother and > then > > > dying wife, Poe realized that the the lack of "real ruins" are, like > > > Emerson's Nature--"the blank and ruin we see in Nature is within our > > > eye"--is not a lack at all but instead the blindness to what is in > front > > of > > > one--the decomposition and decay at the core of being, no matter how > > "new." > > > > > > > > > In his "Philosophy of Composition," Poe constructs an impeccably > rational > > > method by which he has gone about composing his poem "The Raven." No > > > "romantic ruins" or frenzy inspired him, no "inspiration," but, > instead, > > a > > > kind of calculating feat of engineering brought to bear on the > > > decomposition > > > of the very thing that has constructed the poem--the rational, the > > logical, > > > the "constructive" mind. The use of quotation passes from humans to = a > > > bird--"quoth the Raven, 'Nevermore.'" The bird may even be a copy of= a > > > bird, a mechanical bird whose cries are repeated by virtue of a timin= g > > > mechanism triggered by the last lines of the verse preceding its next > > > outburst. Or they may indeed be those of a "real bird," "quoting" > > > "nevermore," a phrase which plunges the student in the poem into one = of > > > those ever deepening and decomposing morasses of the soul which Poe > > depicts > > > also in the guise of decomposing bodies and languages also, which > > devolve > > > into black birds' cries (perhaps "quothing the Raven" itself--??!!) = as > > in > > > The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym. > > > > > > Poe, with his rationally constructed tales in which decomposition and > > > irrationality begin to "take over" and Burroughs with his fugitive > > > languages > > > whose words change their meanings frequently not only in time--from > week > > to > > > week or day to day if need be-- but also vary from place to place alo= ng > > the > > > trail of the outlaw addict, evidence a yearning for a language which > will > > > elude the colonization process of appropriation and quotation. For > > > Dubuffet, the "way out" of this nightmare in the "asphyxiating cultur= e" > > of > > > the art world was Art Brut as he originally found it and conceived of > > > it--that is, Dubuffet recognized its existence there, well having the > > > honesty himself as an artist to know that he himself might learn from > > these > > > "Raw" artists while not being one himself. > > > > > > That is, not that there will be an "authorial self" who is "original" > but > > > that there may exist "languages" and realms of" communications" in a= nd > > > among and through which the possibility of a continually "living" y= et > > > "invisible" writing is "on the move," while behind it are the deposit= s > of > > > its shed skins, its discarded, outdated notations, to be picked up on > as > > > "news" and "clues" so as to distract and confuse those would-be > > > appropriators and translators of a writing which does not want to be > > read, > > > and so creates "fakes" of its non-self in order to provide "cover" fo= r > > its > > > ever elusive voyages, fictions to amuse itself as it observes the > futile > > > hunters continually be led round and round in circles, deciphering > > > non-signs > > > as signs and elaborate scrawls as "lucid notations" of a "lost > language" > > or > > > of a "new language" which they alone will become the possessors of th= e > > > secrets of, the sole appropriators and translators of, the alpha and > > omega > > > of a literature which now is thought to "belong to history and > > > civilization" > > > and which instead is simply an empty wooden horse, a decoy duck, whil= e > > > somewhere, elsewhere, the writing leads lives of its own. > > > > > > (Note: I just found Wyston Curnow's question re a genealogy of the > > > appropriation use of today-- > > > > > > the issue of appropriation, as noted, begins to change with the > > > introduction > > > and spread of copyright laws, as with the acceleration of the > production > > > of > > > copies in themselves-- > > > Benjamin formulates his questions re "The Work of Art in the Age of > > > Mechanical Reproduction" close to a hundred years after Poe has begu= n > > > doing > > > so. Hawthorne, writing in the 1840's roughly, in The House of Seven > > > Gables, > > > already has as a major figure a Daguerreotypist who provides, along > with > > > the > > > narrator, commentaries on the art of the photograph in comparison wit= h > > that > > > of painting--that is, in terms of their status as not solely copies o= f > > > persons and scenes, but also as methods directed towards revealing wh= at > > is > > > otherwise hidden to the eye of an observer. The "composition" of a > > > daguerreotype then, becomes a form of decomposition of not only a > painted > > > image, but as well of the "image of the person" themselves--"revealin= g" > > > aspects hidden not only to others but also perhaps to themselves. As= a > > > "reversed mirror image" in a sense, it gives an oddly "corrected" ima= ge > > of > > > that image which one had previously supposed one was seeing as others > do. > > > > > > The very decomposition of the House itself becomes as it were a metho= d > of > > > "letting in more light" via the cracked and fissured surfaces, which = is > > the > > > "pencil of light" with which the camera writes into existence a new > > method > > > of representing things not only singly, but serially, or, as in the > > famous > > > mirror scenes in Citizen Kane and The Lady from Shanghai--an endless > > series > > > of mirrorings of the self trapped in the light of the moment which is > > > turning it into the past as the figure moves before the --and into--t= he > > > hall > > > of mirrors. > > > > > > One might begin with an examination of many of the texts of the > "Classic > > > American Literature" (D.H Lawrence) as the first literature to in a > sense > > > compose via decomposition and in so doing decompose the "future" of i= ts > > own > > > literature before it has happened. (Rather than being a deconstructi= on > > > avant la lettre, as Poe's work has furnished examinations for, it is = a > > > decomposition of the work of time on things before they have begun to > > > exist.) > > > > > > One finds that already a century and a half ago and more, there alrea= dy > > > exist in this Classic Literature the contemporary the issues of > copying, > > > appropriation, translations, quotations, cataloging, "secret messages= ," > > > "messages in code," the examination of handwriting itself as a method > of > > > literary "criticism," the centrality of the role of death, the > appearance > > > of > > > "intelligent machines" and "psychic communications" as a form of > > scientific > > > possibility--the ghostly, the after-effects existences, of unknown > > writings > > > and languages which haunt the forests and wildernesses, and as well a= re > > > still living among them in many vast areas, the complimentary America= n > > > forms > > > of Gigantism (Walt Whitman, Paul Bunyan, Earthworks) and the Minimali= st > > > (Emily Dickinson)--as well as the use throughout American popular art > of > > > the > > > copy of an object to represent the trade or concept for which the > > object's > > > copy is supposed to stand. (The vast and eccentric systems of signs > used > > > in > > > the US a hundred fifty years ago are basically the creation of a thre= e > > > dimensional sculptural-visual poetry of incredible variety and > ingenuity. > > > In a sense, it is a writing for persons who may not actually know how > to > > > read--in any language--or simply in English--) > > > > > > One of the aspects of this writing is that it in ways is more related > to > > > Art > > > Brut and Burroughs' fugitive languages, than to to the more confining > and > > > constrained of the commonly in use American examples of today, as it > sees > > > and makes use of everything as writing. This is neither "the world a= s > > > text" > > > nor "the text as world" or today's rather fundamentalist and curiousl= y > > > Puritan conception of a "material word" on the page, with the attenda= nt > > > "sacredness of the book, the text," but something blasphemous (Melvil= le > > to > > > Hawthorne, on completing Moby Dick: "I have written a wicked book a= nd > > am > > > as clean as the Lamb")- --that is, that the world is alive with > writings > > > which are moving and changing at every moment, and themselves exist o= n > > > living beings as well as on insentient "materials." (Melville also > > writes > > > to Hawthorne, that the very hand which lifts now the pen that it has > just > > > written with, is not the same hand that just formed the last complete= d > > > letter of script, and will not be the same as the one that writes the > > > next--) > > > > > > Tattoos, scrimshaw, the Scarlet Letter, the letters of the words of a= n > > > unknown language carved into the black rock of an island, (in Pym; > > Robert > > > Smithson wrote of these as "perfect proto Earthwords" for a new art > > > criticism")--the disappearing inks and concealed treasure maps, the > > Goldbug > > > and its revelations--as well as the "readings" of Nature by Thoreau a= nd > > > Emerson, and the observations as signs in turn of the "Leaves of Gras= s" > > > which are the tongues of the sleepers below ground, and, beyond that, > > "the > > > untold, the unwritten war" that "Will Never Be Written in the Books" = of > > > Whitman's "Specimen Days, or the insects and flowers in Emily Dickins= on > > > which form the kind of private language which she uses to "but cross > the > > > room and be in the Spice Islands" (the continual voyage theme)--all o= f > > > these > > > are writings which extend writing far beyond the "normaliiizing" > > > conventions > > > of the limits of the page-- > > > > > > This vision of a language which is continually in movement, continual= ly > > > changing, concealing itself, reappearing, being thrown overboard, or > > > bobbing > > > about as the carved coffin bearing the absent Queequeg's script and t= he > > > sole > > > survivor and author to be of the tale of the late Pequod--is itself > from > > a > > > period in which the American language was in flux, not yet > standardized > > > and > > > fixed into the defined and set stone of Webster's. A chaos in spellin= g, > > > punctuation and grammar was perfectly acceptable, as were the wildly > > > varying > > > degrees of abilities of readers to decipher the riot of signs and > symbols > > > running amok all around them, and so was a sense of writing as > something > > > alive and and unfixed, nomadic and tending, like Art Brut and the > > addict's > > > fugitive Jargons, towards an anarchy and "Civil Disobedience" which > have > > > become increasingly tamed, toned down and timid. > > > > > > For example, consider that today, a work of appropriation in a > conceptual > > > sense is proffered as that of "unoriginality, copying" and the "autho= r" > > > thus > > > no longer "exists" except as a functionary, a filer of data, a sorter > of > > > files. This is precisely the work which Bartleby is assigned to, and > > which > > > he one day simply decides that he would "prefer not to" do anymore. > > > > > > Bartleby's act of Disobedience he pays for by being incarcerated in t= he > > > tombs, there to die, refusing all the while to acept anything offered > out > > > of > > > a sense of obligation by the employer who had put him there in the > first > > > place, as a last resort against homelessness. > > > > > > In a peculiar way, may one not say that Bartleby is a kind of > "political > > > prisoner," (civil disobediance since 9/11 carrying much heavier > potential > > > penalties) in the sense that he will no longer carry out the > > contemporary > > > (today's) idea of what it means to be an > author-cum-death-of-the-author? > > > Instead, he would "prefer not to" be a writer who writes as the death > of > > > the > > > author as it exists in the conceptual formulation of copyist and file= r, > > > even > > > if rejecting this method of writing-as-the-death-of-the-author means > the > > > loss of his freedom, and following that, of his life. > > > > > > In short, Bartleby would "prefer not to" BE a > > "death-of-the-author-author" > > > but instead simply to die. > > > > > > here are some examples of a few of the possiblities themselves so > myriad > > > and > > > ever expanding of the little i suggest in the above > > > > > > > > > Conceptual Poetry and its Others > > > UA Poetry Center > > > May 29-31, 2008 > > > David-Baptiste Chirot< > > > > > > http://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com/2008/05/conceptual-poetry-and-its= -others.html > > > > > > > > > > David-Baptiste Chirot: "Waterboarding & > > > Poetry" > > > Wordforword #13 Spring 2008 > > > (also has Visual Poetry by chirot) > > > Poems from Guant=E1namo > > > The Detainees Speak > > > David Baptite Chirot < > > http://www.kaurab.com/english/books/guantanamo.html > > > >* > > > No* > > > KAURAB Translation Site > > > > > > David-Baptiste Chirot > > > *El Colonel's Composition Book* > > > > > > > > > http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2008/10/david-baptiste-chirot-el-colonels= .html > > > > > > 20080530 David-Baptiste Chirot > > > > > > > > > http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2008/05/david-baptiste-chirot-el-colonel-= wakes.html > > > > > > *El Colonel wakes up from dreaming* > > > > > > 1. [PDF< > > > > > > http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=3DA0oGkjhGqwxJKXIB.2NXNyoA;_ylu=3DX3oDMTByZWgwN= 285BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkAw--/SIG=3D11rat3ean/EXP=3D122565344= 6/**http%3a//www.dusie.org/ElColonelsmile.pdf > > > > > > > ] developing poetic ideas > > > 3647k - Adobe PDF - View as > > > html< > > > > > > http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=3DA0oGkjhGqwxJKXIB_GNXNyoA/SIG=3D16nm69t56/EXP= =3D1225653446/**http%3a//66.218.69.11/search/cache%3fei=3DUTF-8%26p=3Del%2b= colonel%2bsmiles%26fr=3Dytff1-divx%26u=3Dwww.dusie.org/ElColonelsmile.pdf%2= 6w=3Del%2bcolonel%2bcolonels%2bsmiles%26d=3DXMYTYULURrCT%26icp=3D1%26.intl= =3Dus > > > > > > > *El* *Colonel* *Smiles*. For Roberto Bolano *...* *El* *Colonel* > > > *smiles*. > > > Pleasure birds fly in exotic jungles, among tableaux of hacked and > > *...* > > > www.*dusie.org*/ElColonelsmile.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:57 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat > > >wrote: > > > > > > > Walter Benjamin's *The Arcades Project* and Montaigne's *Essays* ar= e > > > > masterpieces made mostly of quotations, the writer's own thoughts > > weaving > > > > around them. > > > > > > > > Translation, if properly understood as the creation of parallel > > > meta-texts > > > > rather than as copies, is a genre of appropriation. W. Benjamin's > > "ideal > > > > language" -which is his concept of what translation involves- is > > > > essentially a hypertext composed entirely of appropriated texts. > > > > > > > > Ciao, > > > > > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:41:12 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: New Jersey book launch MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Reading and book signing to celebrate publication of my new collection titled ROCK VEIN SKY , poems by Charlotte Mandel (Midmarch Arts Press). Thursday, November 6th, 7:30 p.m. at Watchung Booksellers 54 Fairfield Street Watchung Plaza Montclair, NJ 07042 Information: 973-744-7177 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 09:54:08 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo Newsletter 11.03.08-11.09.08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 LITERARY BUFFALO 11.03.08-11.09.08 EVENTS THIS WEEK Visit the Literary Buffalo calendar at www.justbuffalo.org for more detaile= d info on these events. All events free and open to the pubic unless other= wise noted. 11.04.08 VOTE=21 11.05.08 Talking Leaves...Books Lisa Forrest Reading/Signing for: To The Eaves Wednesday, November 5, 7:00 PM Talking Leaves...Books, 3158 Main St. & Just Buffalo/Center for Inquiry Literary Cafe Christina Wos Donnelly and Grace Ritz Poetry Reading (8 open slots) Wednesday, November 5, 7:30 PM Center for Inquiry, 1310 Sweet Home Road, Amherst 11.06.08 Talking Leaves...Books Tom Waters Reading/Signing for: Breathing Room, Vol. 1 Thursday, November 6, 6:00 PM Talking Leaves...Books, 3158 Main St. & Poetics Plus =40 UB An Evening with Tracie Morris Poetry Reading/Performance Thursday, November 6, 7:00 PM Hallwalls Cinema, 341 Delaware Ave. =40 Tupper & The Write Thing at Medaille College Joshua Harmon Fiction Reading Thursday, November 6, 7:00 PM Library at Huber Hall, Medaille College, 18 Agassiz Cir. & Talking Leaves...Books/Jewish Community Book Fair Theodore Steinberg Book Lecture: Jews and Judaism in the Middle Ages Thursday, November 6, 7:30 PM Temple Sinai, 50 Alberta Dr., Amherst 11.07.08 Just Buffalo/Albright-Knox Art Gallery Nickel City Poetry Slam Feature: Tom Noy Friday, November 7, 7:00 PM Clifton Hall, Albright-Knox Art Gallery 10 open slots, bring 3 poems no longer than 3 minutes each to compete. ___________________________________________________________________________ Western New York Book Arts Collaborative Workshops Just Buffalo's friend and partner is offering the following workshops: Letterpress Holiday Cards Nov 3,10 and 17 Simple Book Structures Nov 4 and 11 Hardcover multi-signature book. Nov 5 and 12 Decorative Marbled and Paste Papers. Dec 2 and 9 Cards and Tags using Recycled materials. Dec 3 and 10 Printmaking with Household Objects (kids) Dec 6 DIY Pin back button making session. Dec 17 Letterpress Workshops at French Press Visit: http://www.wnybookarts.org/events.php for more info. ___________________________________________________________________________ MEMBERSHIP Join Just Buffalo today to take part in our monthly member-only events, inc= luding: TONIGHT=21 Book Discussion of Michael Ondaatje's =22The English Patient=22 Moderated by Babel host, Michael Kelleher Monday, November 3, 7 p.m. Betty's Restaurant, 370 Virginia St., Buffalo Dessert and coffee will be served Memberships (=2435 annual contribution) can be purchased at event. & Western New York Book Arts Collaborative Tour Tour and reception of new Western New York Book Arts Collaborative space Meet founders Rich Kegler and Carima El-Behairy Try your hand at a Vandercook Press=21 Thursday, November 13, 5:30 PM=CB=87 Wine and cheese served WNYBAC Building, Corner of Washington and East Mohawk http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml ___________________________________________________________________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBER WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP http://www.justbuffalo.org/docs/Writer_Critique_Group.pdf ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i= mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 07:44:21 -0800 Reply-To: jkarmin@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Communiqu=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E9_?= from Chicago: Election 2008 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi poetics friends....thanks to all who have emailed to ask about the pre-e= lection activity in chicago. i've posted some thoughts on the les figues p= ress blog. Communiqu=E9 from Chicago: Election 2008 http://lesfigues.blogspot.com/2008/11/communiqu-from-chicago-pre-election.h= tml onwards, jennifer karmin=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 17:57:41 -0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Diego Navarro Subject: Re: Communiqu=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9_?= from Chicago: Election 2008 In-Reply-To: <780021.43697.qm@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline If the topic is considered valid for today, I've written my letter to America too. http://dayvancowboy.org/2008/11/election/ 2008/11/3 Jennifer Karmin > hi poetics friends....thanks to all who have emailed to ask about the > pre-election activity in chicago. i've posted some thoughts on the les > figues press blog. > > Communiqu=E9 from Chicago: Election 2008 > > > http://lesfigues.blogspot.com/2008/11/communiqu-from-chicago-pre-election= .html > > onwards, > jennifer karmin > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=20 Diego Navarro "Ecrire n'a rien =E0 voir avec signifier, mais avec arpenter, cartographier= , m=EAme de contr=E8es =E0 venir" (Deleuze, G., Guattari, F. (1980) "Mille Plateaux", ed. Minuit) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 11:41:00 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <5CA82D628C40AD4E9EB5013ADB6F6A9A0BF2E8BFC7@artsmail4.ARTSNET.AUCKLAND.AC.NZ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Wystan: One of the interesting ways to think of appropriation through time is that it may often function not as a method of "creating of the previous/with the previous" something "new," but, instead as a participating in many actions which involve extension, reframing and as well, not making "fake" or "artificial" but paradoxically a kind of "return to realism." For example: Duchamp takes an object and puts it in an art gallery and calls it a "ready Made." (Art off the rack," so to speak, with the "label" being simply that the artist who chose the object said that is "art." At the same time, to bring art "down from the high horse of abstraction," and "return to the reality at hand," the object itself is "a real object, straight from the hardware store." A "real object" becomes "an art object" simply by the moving of it from one environment (hardware store) to another (art gallery). Yet the object thus "transformed" remains the same "real object" and hence it becomes not art itself as abstract on the canvas or in a three-D object, or in a text, but an "abstract transaction" in the mind: trans---action being the key word, as both a "transaction" in a commercial terms, and an action "beyond" or "through and out," a transit. The effect of the transaction (hopefully) is to be that it sets in action the realization that art happens in the mind, not only in the object, text, screen, canvas. Duchamp said he wanted to make art which contradicted the French idiomatic phrase "Bete comme un peintre." (Stupid like a painter--the stereotype of the painter of genius who is one in painting and/or sculpture, but when it comes to articulating any thoughts, "is at loss for words." and so appears to be "stupid like a painter." In arts of appropriation, one is making use of a preexisting object, text, fragment, and so the work is anchored in a "reality," a "documentary" aspect, which is to be played off of, or make a commentary on, the "fictional" and "artificial" and if such is the case, "faked" aspects of the work. In this way, the work can question the nature of the construction of "reality" as already being being "made" of such a process in itself. In collage art, the artist is simply doing what is already being done around them--and commenting on it through re-editing, re-juxtaposing, transports elements from one realm to another there to mingle with elements taken from others--Schwitter's method in his collages and Merzbau--Rauschenberg and his "Combines" and transfer works, etc. Warhol's Factory production of serial versions of the same image, replicas of Campbell's Soup Cans, and the whole Pop Art basis in recycling and reproducing "pop" imagery--treats the image world, already reproductions, mass productions, as in itself a reality, and so create the Pop reality which simply recycles itself as an endless system of production. These works in a sense are at once "artificial" and "real" as the reality they are reproducing is an artificial one, in treating it as real, it becomes again artificial (art) or--in treating it as already artificial (art) and reproducing it, taking elements fro it, it makes of a popular "artificiality" and "art artificiality" by the shifting of the frames from the comic book store or super market to the art gallery. With writing, for thousands of years most likely, persons have gazed at some landscape, city scene or sudden movement of the wind in tress and had a line of poetry come to their mind and/or lips as having "presented this to me previously." That is--this scene makes me think of a line of Pindar." In this way whole landscapes becomes the sites of tourism for those aficionados who want to see the "real Wuthering Heights," the places where Ulysses takes place," the New York of Edith Wharton, or the Paris of Baudelaire. The description and associations in writing in a sense create the place from which they are seen as being created into a place which others "want to go and see in all its reality," though that reality may have existed quite some time ago or perhaps just six months ago. "The scene of the crime," as it were, to be gawked at and commented on further, with fotos taken and souvenirs purchased. (Poe's "Morning on the Wissihcon" describes a proto-version this kind of literary Disney 'world"--) A writer like Herodotus is a forerunner of al these things, in that his Histories include everything--stories told that are fabulous, others that are "documented," speculations, wild eyed tales of wonders, all manner of things real, imaginary, fictional, hoaxed, are run togetehr as being simply what the traveling historian has collected. In this method of appropriation what is being accomplished "naturally" by Herodotus is today done as an attempt to "blur," "transgress" boundaries and dividing lines between categories, classifications, into such separate things as "fables," "Facts," and "hoaxes." The desire of many "post modern" projects and approaches is, as Olson had propounded fifty years ago and more, found actually in the pre-Aristotlean world of a writer like Herodotus, when no such classificatory systems are being applied. What is written of today as "transgressions," was all in a day's life and work for a traveling historian like Herodotus or those "travel writers" of the early periods of Western colonialist expansions and explorations. I keep bringing him up, but Poe is the first American writer to consistently use methods, let alone invent quite a number of his own, for creating hybrids of facts, fictions, fakes, hoaxes, "newspaper items," and "detective stories," one of which, "The Mystery of Marie Roget," was written along side the actual tabloid sensation mystery of the murder and disappearance of the body of Mary Rogers, "The Cigar Store Girl." Via his fictional ratiocinating "Dupin, Poe wanted to demonstrate that this method would more effectively, efficiently and correctly solve the crime than the tabloid accounts of the bumbling methods of the then rather haphazard assemblage of beings and techniques that was the new York Police force. (Conan Doyle with his Sherlock Holmes makes use of this inspiration of Poe's in Sherlock Holmes' always using the London Times as vast treasure trove of textual evidences and clues.) One of Poe's great dreams is to find the area of suspension between waking and dreaming, living and death--and in this manner be at the blurring of all boundaries--an area i which reality and imagination, fictions and fakes, all are equally vivid and as it were living-dead. Having observed the death of his mother, his brother and his young wife, Poe's desire to as much as possible suspend the last instants of consciousness before its extinction is a "rational"desire and need for something that others deem "irrational." Thus the work of Poe becomes ever more of a series of depictions in which the ratiocination of the writing "detective" and "mathematician" try to hold at bay the incoming flood tides of the Others--the living dead, the ghosts, the hearts beating through floorboards, the journey of Arthur Gordon Pym through a realm all in Black--Black people, birds, soil, letterings carved into black rock--and then white--the arrival finally at the edges of the other side of a printed page from the blackness of letters to its white spaces--a figure of white that arises out of the whiteness of mists and is as white as the whiteness of snow. In effect--a "white out"--the termination of writing as black notations on white pages and the the confrontation of a "white on white" aspect at the edges of what is NOT an erasure--as in Malevich's "White Square on a White Square" which had been preceded by the "Black Square a Black Square." In this narrative of Pym's, it is also noted that perhaps the reader wil not notice at which point the narrative written by Pym stops and that written by the person who is the editor of the published work begins. The book is supplied with an Appendix which in turn throws doubts on who actually did write the text, and if the editor is telling the truth, or if there is some other aspect involved, and Pym himself has been perhaps the narrator all along. The making ambiguous and mysterious of a fictional account of journey that is fantastic yet described in the most precise "ship shape" manner and details, is to further emphasize the idea that there can always be as it were "updates" on the status of a text and its "authorship." That is, Poe is demonstrating that even one's own texts can experience such disputes, as to what Poe really wrote, what was written by someone else whom he plagiarized or "borrowed generously from." In effect, the Appendix is implying--there can continually be "news flash" updates on the status and authorship of this text, and basically any other, as al texts participate in this madcap traversal of exchanges and exchange (stock exchange also). Again, this method gives Poe the chance to "put off" the idea of their being "an ending"--in effect the "true story" has not yet been told, and so in the meantime one will be continually finding "news flashes' which bring one the latest updates on the Poe-Pym voyages and authorships. In Pym, the authors--both of them or more--are in a sense playing a game of jack in the box with what are the various scenes of internment in the book--the whole tale finds Pym being confined in terribly close quarters, or in a situation of captivity or near extinction. In fact, we do not know as the book begins whether or not Pym actually survived at al to tel this tale, as Mr Poe claims that he at some point is the author who takes up the pen from the vanished Pym in order that his tale "might live on" so to speak. When Pym shows up in the Appendix, live after, --this suddenly recasts the Narrative as a book which is actually not the book of the authors, either one--but one which is actually not yet written, but exists as it does "so far" in this "half man half horse" state of having the two seamless authors--one of them presumed dead and replaced part way through by a "ghost writer" who has to face the return of the ghost as not a ghost once the text has been "completed," and now lies on the floor, a ball of a "Yarn" (story) being madly unwoven by one of Poe's own "Imps of the Perverse." Mark Twain is another form of writer in which appropriation is used on a vast scale, though in a way it may not at first seem so to be. His books like Roughing It and Life on the Mississippi, for example, are vast Herodotus style compendiums of anecdote, facts, fictions, outright lies that he relishes re-telling, pure unadulterated tall stories, wild characters who actually are real, and others who are characters "larger than life" because in fact they do not exist at all except as towering feats of story telling. In Twain's world, the good telling of lie is a grandiose and magnificent thing to behold--a great tall story, a superb "yarn," the getting togetehr of literary and journalist friends "to swap a few lies," being the epitome of a "good time." These "lies" are contrasted to the bigger lies which Twain continually attacks as the lies which society uses in order to create its structures of distinctions, borders and boundary lines between peoples and their social status, their possibilities in life, what their dreams are allowed to consist of. Magnificent River Boats sail past cities with names like Memphis, Cairo, St Louis, Nouvelle Orleans--extravagant architectures of mansions, beautifully tended gardens, al the bric-a-brac of an already "post modern style" which mixes the native materials in the making of imitations of buildings the wonders have never seen except in illustrations and associate with being of an "Ancient Dynasty" or a Roman Republic, or Greece, England, France. And in this world are the forerunners of Faulkner's characters running amok in feuds and violence, ignorance and dissolution. And al of it built on slavery and exploitation, in order to build a mansion that can be seen from the River Boats to make one think one is living in a civilization "elsewhere," as though in another time completely. Life on the Mississippi is actually a great anarkeyology of appropriation, in every aspect of the furniture, the houses' designs, the styles adopted and created in clothing, the types of books which are in the libraries, every detail is seen as an appropriation from elsewhere, a vast fantasy world trying to imitate things that it does not comprehend nor want to other than what it symbolizes. And even in the midst of al the grandeur and posing, there is the vision of the incipient, swift rush of decay, decomposition, the first signs of the ghosts that will soon enough inhabit this fantasy world as it slides into the past, as gone as as were the previous bends in the ever changing course of the river. All one has to do is study the Twain book and then move on the tomes of images made through decades of this same world by Clarence john Laughlin--himself the owner of one of the best private libraries in America, an immense eccentric assemblage of heaps and crates and shelves put togetehr by himself--a great admirer of Baudelaire and French poetry and prose--and there is the after effects" world of Twain's--ghostly, in ruins, depopulated, haunted and still the repository for this huge collection of appropriated styles and structures in their journey through time's decomposing. What Luaghlin writes of in his notes accompanying his works, is of a world which in reality is already a Surreality--the fotos in which he constructs strange dreamlike scenes among the already strange "real scenes" are simply the introduction of figures and tableaux to stages that are already crying out for actors. since they already inhabit a "living dream," a living-death, the introduction of the "faked" dream scenes seems "perfectly natural." (I used a transfer of a Laughlin fotoa door in 1950's Milwaukee as part of a collage piece for the cover of an issue of Kaurab Poetry Journal--and "After effect" of the ghostliness in Laughlin's fotos become more ghostly via its transposition as a transfer of a xeroxed copy of the copy of the photo included in a book of his work.) If turning to thes particular models as examples of appropriation at work seems "old fashioned," don't be fooled, their controversial nature rages on. I picked up by chance the other day a new updated edition of Norman Finkelstein's Beyond Hutzpah--and opened as though by magic to a section which reproduces pages from Twain's book on his travels to the Middle East and Europe. The controversy that rages in these pages detailing the reproduced pages of Twain's MS is that Finkelstein demonstrates how passages from twin have been edited, slightly altered, taken a bit out of context, and used as evidence by Alan Dershowitz, who is also plagiarizing from a discredited text which he pretends that he is not plagiarizing from, of some passage in Twain regrading the "non-existence" of Palestinian peoples in certain areas of contemporary Israel-Palestine. Finkelstein is an excellent example of a researcher who goes through the long series of twists and turns of a quotation, a footnote, single word, in order to arrive at an understanding not only of what "originally or actually happened," but also, what has happened along the way, in the uses of a quotation or appropriated text. Since his argument is with a famous Harvard Law School member and lawyer, Finkelstein relishes the opportunity to pick apart the arguments involved, the citations and texts. On the one hand, the famous lawyer is shown to be plagiarizing from a discredited text a severely altered mis- or dis-quotation from Twain, and on the other, is Finkelstein's excavations of the layers of the text's palimpsests, alterations, transpositions, and is being turned into a "fact" in order to "prove" that a contemporary situation is based on "solid evidence." What is surprising from the point of view of literary--and legal-- appropriation is that a lawyer would use the uncited source of a discredited work in which a quotation is found from a famous author, which can easily be checked. What has happened is that a faked version of a documentary account by a fiction writer is taken as being a "reality" that existed in the past which proves the validity of the present reality. By demonstrating the faked and thus fictionalized use of the documentary account to prove "reality," Finkelstein undercuts the present "reality" by the restoration of the original text's actual order of words and phrases and in their correct contexts. The Twain who journeys from the Cairos and Memphises of the USA to those of the "Ancient World," having detailed the appropriations of the New World in al their faked glories, and hungry to see the "originals," becomes in turn appropriated as a faked "glory" text himself, who is then "restored" to his original state in his own words by a commentator in an argument over the borders and existences of peoples both in the past and in the present which uses the past to justify itself. In this example alone, one find some of the aspects in which appropriated texts become part of arguments over literally appropriated lands, as well as depictions of appropriated city names and styles of architecture and manners and reading materials which wind up being part of the future historical reality of the ancient places that are both used as models and their actualities as sites visited as a tourist by the famous author of a previous century. The shuttling back and forth through versions of the text is accompanied by a shuttling back in forth in time as well as a shuttling back and forth between versions of land boundaries in the present based on accounts from the past found in the text and altered only to be restored. The text itself becomes an extention of a "space of contested possession" not only as a text, but also in the world and in a conflict between the uses of the past to justify the present. Via uncited citation, a hoaxed appropriation of a text enters into an intense argument over geography and history It is this aspect of appropriation of texts as actual documents in appropriations of land and history that provides the kind of destabilizing as well as destabilizing "after effects" which make more complex the senses of and uses of "literary appropriation." As with Travel Literature, texts become the genesis for immense debates over the actual legitimacy of ownership of colonized lands and the rights of peoples who essay to inhabit these lands. Interestingly, this aspect of the "after effects" of appropriations of "literary" and "travel" texts tends to be ignored in most considerations of appropriation of texts,, which tend to regard the literary appropriation as being limited to that one area, and so the more "formal" qualities of an appropriation mechanism at work may be examined rather than potentialities in other areas such as geography, history, the military, legal arguments, etc. In effect, to limit the awareness of the effects and "After effects" of texts in and as appropriation, has the peculiar and subtle effect of a removal from consideration of the abilities of texts to have these effects and After effects. That is, one develops a sense of the use of language which has no "consequences," nor, in effect, any "complicities." This creates a separation in language, in which on one hand "transgressions in language" are urged, while those outside this realm are not. And if this is to be maintained as a structure of belief and method, then the transgressions of texts across the limits of the text's boundaries, becomes something to in effect deny. In this way, the peculiar argument can be advanced that in changing language via transgressing boundaries within it, one is changing the world, and at the same time, that this use of language is not in any responsible for what is happening around it, nor that the words that it uses are just as contaminated as the ones others use. This sense of a "purifying of the language of the tribe" as advanced by Mallarme, is in many ways related to the ways in which propaganda functions, by limiting the range of effects which are allowed to be considered, so as to narrow the focus on an ever more centralized configuration and figure or figures of power. In a sense, it points to an elite grouping of poets or writers or artists who are as it were the guardians of this language, and so are deemed the ones to determine the entry or not into the canons or "acceptable ones" of this or that artist or style, this or that version of appropriation as opposed to an other. Rtaher than a rhizomatic, horizontal movement of the energies of appropriation, one finds instead a vertical axis along which are stacked the categories of hegemonies and hierarchies. In a sense, this removes the role of the "dead author" and replaces it with a kind of deity, a philopsher-poet-king-queen in a sense, of an aristocracy of the word. Yet as the example of the traveling through times and spaces and altered and restored versions of Twain's text shows, the appropriation of texts and objects opens the arenas of action and makes for the dispersal across the unexpected of the ever uncertain findings and uses of words, and of the existences of "authors," not at all as fixed identities, but as ever changing "sources," and "citations" which "crop up in the oddest of places." Texts and authors in this senses live lives of their own, which are outside the conventions of what are thought to be the boundaries of texts and authorship. That this proliferation and dispersal of texts and authors among al manner of terrains and times may turn up in situations with which "literature" so to speak would like to "disconnected from", this is because of the "troubling" non-possession of words and texts which copy right and intellectual property laws continually try to keep pace with. The borders which literature would like to keep sealed for itself, or art, or any other form which has created a language it regards as its own and its own only--these borders appropriation shows not to be as secure as one would have thought, and so the desire for kind of "homeland security"system to control this "terrorism of words" against the very Terror in a sense which would dominate them. This is the sense in which the areas of language in literature begin to become a part of the operations of aspects of propaganda, in that the desire and need to control and maintain power supersedes the "love of language" and begins to see that the means to in effect "torture" language are "justified by the ends." Again, one finds "travel literature" as a form of the contesting of borders, not only among settlers and already local populations in the New and Old Worlds, but also the borders among texts as "faked," "documentary evidences," "depictions of fakes as being a reality," and the use of fakes to assert a present reality based on an altered one via an altered text. The ebb and flow of the fake, the real, the fictional, the literary and the actual landscapes involved in terms of borders and possessions--as well as "battles for the very soul of the people and land"--al these are bound up with the uses made of appropriation through a great many levels within just one small dis-quoted quotation from a text by an author who himself depicted so much use of appropriation as a manner of constructing the fantasy land reality he witnessed in its heights and the first signs of its rapid decay and decomposition. Even the current dramas of the American-Israeli interrelationships are depicted in this using of an American text as a "witness" to be argued with in a "case" for or against a version of history that is contested. The travel aspect of uses of appropriation is one that begins to change in the 19th century, with the ability to import ever greater amounts of goods from every farther distant and more "exotic" arts of the world, as well as those "exotics" which exist close to hand. (The Surrealists' Flea market, Joseph Cornell's garage full of old magazines and found matrials from thrift stores, etc, Schwitter's use of street found debris--and the one found by Dubuffet in his concept of Art Brut.) In Baudelaire, the continual theme of "le Voyage" needs no distant places to go--it can be a journey through his mistress' hair, or through a grubby alley--or to a hashish smoking session. Later, Huysman's character Des Esseintes in A Rebours Against the Grain is the Engllish title) simply goes to an English pub as it exits in its exact state for the use of Englishmen in Paris, rtaher than having to bore himself with the tedium expense and time of a trip to the actual England. Travel becomes the voyage of reverie, dream, released by contact with talismanic objects, odors, colors, sounds and images, texts which are from the place or about the place to which one would like to go. "To shut the eyes is travel" says Emily Dickinson, who wrote of books as ships with which to travel. In this sense, to me, the Yasusada works and Yasusada's idea of writing an "After Spicer" in honor of Spicer's "After Lorca" functions itself as a travel literature example, in that using the construction which is made use of by the hoxed imitations of scholarship of "real texts by real authors," in creating a series of fictional and pseudonymous authors, editors, translators, footnoters, annotators, as well as quotations which are real and fictional or faked, to construct both a fictional author and his fictional works, as well the journey to a distant and exotic land--a Japan which is not Japan but an "After Japan," not a translation or copy, nor actual documents, but an imaginary constructed out of the elements of these . via both actual and fictional Japanese poets, artists, places and events. After all, what is Spicer's Lorca's Spain? Or his Spanish language? Where are they existing in Spicer's text? The traveling with Lorca that Spicer indicates is done in the home of Spicer's, as of two lovers living togetehr for a season. It is in a sense of the continuation of the voyage of Baudelaire through his mistress' hair as a voyage-to-a-text, as well as that voyage of Poe,s in which the white ghostly spaces left by the vanished ghost of the lover-- "After" effects, so that work is written both "After" Lorca literarily and" literally"--after Lorca the lover of the summer in autumn has departed. And indeed, the introductory letter opening the text is written by Lorca--the already dead poet speaking from beyond the grave as his own ghostly After effects become ghost-written by Spicer as his "After Lorca." For Poe, the "Aftereffects' are "mournful and never ending remembrance" which also tries continually to be reanimated from out of the coffin--into a state between life and death, dream and waking--in which al things possible may occur--an open area of uncertainty--where Poe and Pym takes turns authoring the same text, each one vanishing as the other reappears, back from the supposedly dead, to assert his rightful place in place of the one living and writing in his absence. To battle with the double of oneself--in this suspended state--the tale of "William Wilson"--Rimbaud and his "I is an other"--the confrontation with the hoaxy aspects as well as the documentary and imaginary--of writing and of what is an author--not a who--but a what--as though the author really matters--when as Poe asserts in the "Philosophy of Composition" --one begins with determining what the effect is that one would like to produce. In other words, an "after effect" which precedes its own creation--just as the "Philosophy of Composition" is written AFTER the composition of "The Raven" and so re-tells the "story" of its creation as an "after-thought" as well as an After-effect----which "reconstructs" an event which actually did not happen, in order to make an argument for the kind of Composition Poe is propounding as the one best suited to create the kind of "great effects on an audience" that the "Raven" had. By demonstrating that he worked backwards, deductively and rationally to produce what are the "irrational" yet also "mechanically engineered" effects of the poem and its Raven repeatedly & (a robot Raven, an "synthetic intelligence"--?) mechanically"quothing""Nevermore"--Poe writes "after the fact" the non history of a poem in order to prove that his "irrationality" as person does not exist, nor does it in the poem, but al of it, all of it--can be explained! In the very act of essaying to be the ultra rational one, Poe begins to sound not unlike one of his irrational characters in the process of trying to defend their actions, which came from that other source he depicts so vividly in a different piece, "The Imp of the Perverse." As a writer, Poe is experiencing and detailing not the "death of the author"--but the cracking, corroding, collapsing, dispersal and disappearance-reappearance dead-alive, living dead,suspended animation state of an author in which the uncertainty principle is at work. so that the author is beginning to have trouble distinguishing between himself and his invented authors, his characters,his texts, his hoaxes and documentations, his published "marginalia" which appear in Newspapers as "real" and which are "made up" as he owned no library to annotate, but only about three books at the time. And how does Poe exist today? He stil exists as after effects in America as the the creation of a poison pen obituary written by Rufus Griswold! The source for good deal of the myths of Poe is this outright piece of slander. Poe himself became a part of long running tabloid sensationalism, both adding to and altering, shifting, his status as a writer hovering ever suspended among a series of faked images and stories about himself, and his own such creations. In this sense Poe has realized in a peculiar way one aspect of his dream of existing among the living-dead, as he himself continues to exist as this mixture of urban legend, movie versions, illustrations, endless repackagings of his works, endless new theories about them, endless new discoveries not only of original editions themselves but also of the actual facts which he did make use of and which had been thought to be his own hoaxes. In a sense, to understand a genealogy of "post modern" examples of appropriation, is to find Burroughs' impossible glossary of wrods whose intention are fugitive--for the moment one were to define, control, st boundaries and divide into categories, classifications, the very thing one is observing in order to do this, would continually be breaking it asunder, decomposing it, rearranging it--and so, the place to "begin" is in actuality in the daily newspapers or news in any media--as there one finds the continual dispersal of writings and writers evidenced in the symptoms of language which are registering the seismographic chartings of voyages which never cease traveling, never cease their production of effects and After effects, fall out, radioactive dusts--mutations and permutations--ghosts and ghost written texts-- The "Purloined Letter(s)" found hidden in plain site/sight/cite all around one-- the War which was founded on forged texts and paintings of non existent fotos--the widespread use of "election fraud" as a technique both to count voting and to frighten off voting-- the uses of torture to produce "confessions" which are false or real or who knows what--but which are none the less used as "proofs"--even though the actual confession may never be revealed-- the persons detained without any accusations-- that is, the non-writings of non texts which condemn persons non accused to be detained indefinitely-- the ways in which a society inoculates itself by the alteration and vanishing of words from what it does not want to or like to or is not meant to hear or read-- the uses of appropriation are everywhere one around-- perhaps what is really the purpose is to find the ways in which these are all interrelated and so constitute the existence of culture as it is presenting itself to itself through its appropriated and faked and hoaxed uses of words and images- rather than a typology in which the separations are made so as to exclude one domain from another--and so to deny or deliberately or not miss the effects and After effects of all the various means and meanings of appropriation-- This particular study of my own i call "The New Extreme Experimental American Poetry and Arts"-- this interrealtionship of aspects across, among, through and around appropriation in constructing a language which essays to deny what it is capble of and is in many instances doing daily, as a matter of routine-- a language which allows persons the appearnces of freedom when in fact tightening and contsraining ever more tightly and narrowly the ranges of awareness and questioinng- and at the same time to find the actions and uses of appropriation which decompose this massive compostion one is presented with as a reality which in fact is but a continaully tweaked construction in which language used by all is participating daily-- to study the composition and to find the decompositions-- as much as possible, though one oneself is pitifully limited-- On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 4:01 AM, Wystan Curnow wrote: > Murat, Tom, Barry, David, > As we are seeing "appropriation"'s precursors are varied > and commonplace, to the extent that > the term itself appears reductive--Chaucer's only 'a great appropriator' if > his practice is presumed to be informed by a modern idea (and its attention > laws and prohibitions)of authorship. > I am more interested in the varieties of contemporary > 'appropriation' --it seems such a dumbly provocative term, so post-modern > fer crissakes--which is the way Murat's remarks about recent 'attacks on > authorship and orginality' are pointed. The value of a geneology of > appropriation, or a pre-history of authorship seems to be that it may help > generate a typology of current practices and possibilities in which re-use, > refried, is understood as more like the norm than the exception. > Wystan > > > > ________________________________________ > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of > Murat Nemet-Nejat [muratnn@GMAIL.COM] > Sent: Saturday, 1 November 2008 8:44 a.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > > Tom, Barry, David, > > Appropriation is the basic Medieval mode of writing, either, as Barry says, > citation being the prevalent trope of writing or as outright appropriation. > Chaucer is the great appropriator in English literature. Troylus and > Cresyda > is for all purposes, with some changes, of Boccaccio's Philostrato, without > Chaucer ackknowledging it as such. This does not mean that he was being > dishonest or propagating a hoax, simply that that was a natural Medieval > writing process. A number of Chaucer's earlier works (the titles escape me > now) start with a dream passage, introducing or framing the narrative which > will follow. This was a common Medieval trope. A number of times, Chaucer > lifts his dream passages from French examples. > > To understand the process better, it might be helpful to look at Medieval > Cathedrals, masterpieces with no named architects. The whole construct is > seen as a communal activity, something beyond the individual or authorship. > The same ethos, an ethos of poetics, applies to writing also. Ruskin > understood this. I think it is the source of his modernity. When David, > Kent > Johnson, myself and a few others, in various ways, attack the notion of > originality or authorship, elevating the editor, the translator, the > anthologist, the creator of hoaxes, the heteronymous author, the hypertext > to a central position, replacing these tropes for the figure of the "poet," > they are actually trying to go back to the same Medieval view of authorship > and creation. Recently, Jerome Rothenberg and I had a conversation where we > discussed the concept of the anthology being the ideal form of a sacred > text. That discusion also, I believe, were along the same lines. > > Though in the 17th century the idea of the individual author was already > present, one can see in certain authors the earlier prominence of citation > still in full swing. One can cite three works along these lines where > appropriations are integral to the text: Burton's *The Anatomy of > Melancholy > *, Browne's "Urn Buryals," Montaigne's *Essays*. > > If I remember correctly, Swift's *The Tale of the Tub* parodies the same > style of appropriation in its person; nevertheless, in this parody the > earlier style is still in full force. In English Literature, I think > Johnson > and Pope give a "temporarily fatal blow" to the process mocking its > rube-like primitiveness (even Shakespeare could not escape the opprobrium) > and elevating originality to a poetic ideal. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:00 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > > > hi all, > > > > catherine daly and mark weiss were looking for some clarification on > > my question regarding a possible genealogy or history of appropriative > > writing. first off, and thanks to those who provided 20th-century > > examples but yes i'm really looking for precedents prior to dada and > > high modernism. > > > > as far as defining terms, i really do have in mind mostly what mark > > says, substantive if not wholesale incorporation of an other('s) text, > > however identified or not, into one's own. so i'm less interested in, > > say, the rhapsode as song-stitcher of a people's tales; or as dave > > chirot points to among his many great suggestions, the renaissance > > notion of imitation or authority through citation of others rather > > than through originality; or citation as example, through which, as > > dave points out, many pre-socratic, sapphic etc fragments found their > > sole survival; or translation, which still in most cases wants to > > preserve and remain faithful to the original author's intent... > > > > and so as to catherine's "appropriation how/why," precisely. i'm > > looking to a genealogy of appropriative poetics in part to > > differentiate poets' means, intents, motives etc for doing so in the > > first place. so for example, 1) tzara says make a dada poem by tearing > > up a newspaper and arranging the strips you've pulled from a hat; 2) > > pound, reznikoff, rukeyser pull documents from the historical and > > legal records to include in their poems; 3) cage reads thru joyce, > > thoreau, etc and creates mesostics from their words. clearly in each > > case the authors have different motivations for these appropriative > > acts and i'd like to try to map out the field, including precedents > > for this kind of activity. > > > > additional suggestions and discussion welcome... > > > > thanks, > > tom orange > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:50:39 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0811030524o503bd299g4735703d16a3039f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Murat And Barry: Barry--many thanks for your having checked on the translations and in comparison with others as you call them, Straight translations"-- though perhaps Spicer may have made use of existing translations to create his own versions of these translations-- rather than having made the translations directly from the Spanish-- (this method is used in many cases actually as a form of translation, rather than necessarily "After"--as one may have a translator who knos the language make the "straight translation" and the poet then make use of this to create heir own translation using the raw translated words-- -- (i only suggest these as possibilities-among many---) Murat--I think you misunderstand me-- what i am trying to present is not ONE version of what translation or appropriation may be, nor to say that there exists one method only as the most common, nor two nor three-- quite the contrary--what interests me are the ceaseless proliferations brought about by translations and appropriations--indeed their "After effects" and further translations and appropriations through time-- i think perhaps that what you have found for yourself is a method and authority in which your profoundly believe and make use of-- and judged by this manner, none other really has the same level of existence and authority--- so, in a sense, the single-mindedness of purpose becomes impatient with the suggestions of other methods and examples however recognized, actual. weird, vague, bad or indifferent as well as "authorized" that exist in al their teeming fecund chaotic rhizomatic voyagings-- (i'm not a descendant of French-Indian Voyageurs for nothing,after all!--) what interests me is that from one single word in any language may become such proliferations of meanings, events, personages, writers, singers, painters, all the world in fact, soldiers, forgers, bombers, martyrs, presidents and prostitutes--Bible thumpers, gangbangers, all of them--poets and pall bearers, carnival clowns and congress persons-- ghosts, ghost writers, Posthumous ghosthumous writers--"After effects" of an After writing of one's own writings such as Musil's early 1930's collection of his "Posthumous works of a living author"-- so it is that i find what you do with translation very beautiful, and at the same time i carry in mind many others ways of translating, and ways of appropriating, whatever their motives and intentions--simply to bear in mind that there is no fixed limit on what may be sounded within a word's depths-- nor perhaps in the depths of the minds and hearts which make use of these- As i noted before, through a series of posts i am hoping to keep alive both the positive and negative as well as the indifferent and careless or accidental aspects of appropriations and translations-- and as well their spilling out across boundaries, so that a poetical text lands somewhere else entirely, part of a land dispute--or a conflict over the types of flowers which oonce appeared in a region--and who may have been the ones who planted them--and many other thousands of things besides-- oepn the newspaper, and there one may find daily some example at work of this proliferation having effects and After effects in all manner of ways and means-- In one letter, a more negative aspect may seem to be at the fore, and in the next a more positive-- this is to indicate that sense of language of Burroughs' "no final glossary may be made of words whose intentions are fugitive"-- actually I hadn't been thinking at all of the Guantanamo Poems about which i have on line some essays--but rather the daily uses of translation as well as the poetic ones, for to me what is intersting is how these are interrelated, rather than separate-- which is one of the bases for my series re "The New Extreme Experimental Poetry and Arts"-- actually in a very good translation of a poem may exist every bit as much manipulation for a purpose as there does in what you think of as one with bad intentions and so done poorly-- precisely the survival of certain texts through time has depended in ways upon the directions they were shifted by translators who wished to keep them alive-- or, in order to adjust them to seem to be the precursors of a current doctrine, whether of poetry or of the state or other institutions-- this is why translations are always being done over again, new ones appearing to displace the old--in order to give a sense of the works being "part of and important for our times" as well as for their own-- this is a matter of"poetry politics" often just as much as it may be of "national politics"-- so it is that a current poet may give one a version which is far more in tune with the current kinds of poetry considered the most important or best-- and this new version may not be much like a previous "outdated" one-- and yet considered to be a very good one in part because it does indeed, make the translated poet much more "available" to the modern reader -- i am not disagreeing with you or Benjamin, at all, but simply saying that what interests me personally is the proliferations of possibilities of appropriation and translation, which extend writing into other realms of endeavor, and create After effects quite unexpected by the original source-- the danger of thinking that there are only certain models of translation in existence by which to examine translations and to create them with--is that there will become a creation of forms of conventionalism-conformity---which in a sense denies the immense variety of possibilities, and in so doing, actually makes it easier for other more sinister versions to slip themselves into the mix and not be noticed, or simply waved to the side--as being of little importance--or quality--when in fact they may be carrying along something of great significance, for the bad or good--yet which bears being aware of-- in a sense one might say that i am not driven by a "rationale" so much as by a sense never ceasing of amazement, of being astounded, by the ways in which words are used, their incredible paradoxes and paradoxical After and "side effects," the ways in which they can be used to sell anything from Gods to garbage bags, Presidents to pills--and as well make poetry that stops the blood cold-- in turn the sense of amazement has its companion, skepticism--questioning, awareness of quantum leaps and uncertainty--of camouflages and the beings of things wccih do not want to be as it were recognized--translated or appropriated--not because of "resistances"--but something else, an outside-- "The hills know but do not tell"--as Emily Dickinson puts it-- and the Tao which can be named is not the Tao-- in the word "After" in Spicer's title is also another meaning, besides the predatory one you write of-- which is that this is written as it were "after the affair is over" in order in a sense to comprehend what Spicer is finding are its "After effects"-- Spicer indicates this in the "Last letter" and also in the final stanza of "Radar" the postscript poem dedicated to marianne moore which "ends" the book and the letter, the final letter to Lorca. These words of a vanished forever ghost lover are, to me at any rate, heartbreakingly beautiful--almost too much to bear to read-- Here is both the "After" the summer affair of love--and also--the "After effects"--as Spicer depicts them (with on the way, in this last letter, also a discussion of "Poe's mechanical chess player."--Again, an After effect of Poe as I have been discussing these-- From the letter's third paragraph: *"Yet it was there. ("The intimate communion with the ghost of Garcia Lorca" which now "is over.") The poems are there, the memory not of a vision but a kind of casual friendship with an undramatic ghost who occasionally looked through my eyes and whispered to me, not really more important than my other friends, but now achieving a level of reality by being missing. Today, alone by myself, it is like having lost a pair of eyes and a lover. "What is real, I suppose will endure. Poe's mechanical chess player was not the less a miracle for having a man inside it, and when the man departed, the games it had played were no less beautiful. The analogy is false, of course, but it holds both a promise and a warning for each of us. "It is October now. Summer is over. Almost every trace of the months of that produced these poems has been obliterated. Only explanations are possible, only regrets. "Saying goodbye to a ghost is more final than saying goodbye to a lover. Even the dead return, but a ghost, once loved, will never reappear. Love, Jack And here is the final stanza of the postscript poem, Radar" (which, notice, is a palindrome-the same read backwards and forwards--) "I crawled into bed with sorrow that night Couldn't touch his fingers. See the splash Of the water The noisy movement of the cloud The push of the humpbacked mountains Deep at the sand's edge.' * These "After effects" are real for Spicer, as what happened is becoming, now that it is over, and seen in this "After" existence--ever more real--even as it as a ghost lover is gone forever--the missing of it becomes a reality almost too much to bear and yet, as Spicer says--"It will endure." It is another aspect of Poe's "mournful and never ending remembrance" of the lost loved one, now dead-Just as "The Philosophy of Composition" is an After effect of the poem "The Raven," so this final letter to Lorca is a coming to terms with finding a "philosophy of composition" in order to understand why the now departed ghost lover is becoming more real than it had been while present, in part because it will never reappear again, and how it was that the poems were composed, came to be, without at the time realizing what was happening--not until they had the opportunity to be as they have become, the generators of a time's memory which has turned into a missing reality, never again to return. It is in the After-event, After-effect that the "philosophy of composition" becomes a reality--and the poetry which preceded becomes in turn "more real" than previously the poet had been aware of. This distance--into which a dead ghost lover is forever departed--never to return-- is a "real and final" distance, the full force of an intimacy never to be again-- and so is the distance which has a life of its own-- out side and away from the poet and the poem-- and to be an outside also for the reader-- In a sense, this kind of distance is what i write of as things which do not want to be appropriated or translated, but to be what they are, distance, never to reappear--never to be possessed-- i n a sense, writing itself, and also a writer, may wish to keep a privacy even within the writing, which will never be found, not by anyone, because the ghost lover it is created with is gone for ever-- or because there are things which ghosts and writers wish to keep to themselves, just as writing itself may have such things which are never found that are living with in it-- as though in fact long gone--never to reappear-- and yet one day one finds--hidden in plain sight/site/cite-- which "neither speaks nor conceals but gives signs" as Heraclitus says of the One Whose Oracle is at Delphi-- Also, if one is adopting so completely the method of Benjamin, in a sense are you not creating what you see as an opposition to your own work's claims within it: "If so, as you > state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a text > totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, the very > reverse of what I am talking about." That is, if one is so embracing the philosophy of translation of Benjamin, is not one in effect running the risk of turning the original "totally" not into the translator's image, but in to the image of the philosophy of translation which is guiding the translator? is not one in a sense working then in the service of a particular philosophy of translation? This is one of the reasons why i essay to keep alive the sense of the incredibly teeming and endlessly imaginative and inventive ways in which translations and appropriations may be created and used, whether for good or bad, better or worse, in order that one has a sense that there are always going to be at least two sides to every coin, and once it is being flipped about-- well--who knows how many different sides may suddenly show up via the actions of palming and shifting the coin as it is being flipped-- What i hope to convey with readers or listeners if there are any real or imagainary ones about is that words and phrases poems and prose lead lives of their own as well as the ones which a writer may or not have intended--and any given reader have found or put there along the way--and that even when things seem to be one way, it is always interesting if not often quite useful to find other ways in which the words may be understood--for in them are living beings--with whom to engage-- or who wish to engage themselves with oneself-- The more ways these words are understood as alive-- is not this then to proliferate the lives of what are called writers and readers-- as realities with real effects and After effects-- one thinks of the resistances of texts--why not also of those of living beings-- and of the outside-- in the sense in which a Russian artist says that "Language is a fascism, not becuase it censors, but because it forces one to speak." a sense of words whose intentions are fugitive, not to be trapped inside a prison of languages which one is forced to speak-- to continue--on the move-- as though one were indeed a hill set in movement-- yet, seen as a hill-- not expected nor forced to speak-- > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:24:31 -0500 > From: muratnn@GMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > David, > > At the bifurcation they part Y one sling, yet in my heart one > sling shot. > > The word "After" in Spicer's poem does not only mean "in imitation of" or > "in homage to." It also means "in pursuit of; it has a predatory > connotation. In fact, Lorca's reactions from the grave to Spicer's > solicitations is one of annoyance." A true translation is always an act of > violence -loving or otherwise, that is the issue- against the autonomy of > the original. It literally must tear it up -fragment it- to open it up to a > future life, the life of the text. This fragmentation does have the elements > of collage. Are you familiar with Eliot Weinberger's essay, "Notes On > Translation" [?] of about fifteen years ago about which Kent Johnson wrote > an article which appears in the last issue of ALTA's *The Translation Review > *? > > In your comments, you focus on what a text loses in translation, through > misreading (intentional or not) what gets silenced . My feeling is you are > particularly thinking of the Guantanamo translations. One should also think > of what it gains: what starts as a "complete," closed text opens and becomes > a potential one, which is its life through time. > > A bad translator sees, detects no resistance in the original. If so, as you > state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a text > totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, the very > reverse of what I am talking about. An original resits to be translated. > That's why Benjamin says what gives a text translability is distance. The > translator translates, integrates that distance. That is why a translation > has a tangential relationship to the second language, the distance, > expressed as style, existing as an ideal, a template of potentiality for it. > > Ciao, > > Murat > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 5:24 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > David, > > At the bifurcation they part Y one sling, yet in my heart one > sling shot. > > The word "After" in Spicer's poem does not only mean "in imitation of" or > "in homage to." It also means "in pursuit of; it has a predatory > connotation. In fact, Lorca's reactions from the grave to Spicer's > solicitations is one of annoyance." A true translation is always an act of > violence -loving or otherwise, that is the issue- against the autonomy of > the original. It literally must tear it up -fragment it- to open it up to a > future life, the life of the text. This fragmentation does have the > elements > of collage. Are you familiar with Eliot Weinberger's essay, "Notes On > Translation" [?] of about fifteen years ago about which Kent Johnson wrote > an article which appears in the last issue of ALTA's *The Translation > Review > *? > > In your comments, you focus on what a text loses in translation, through > misreading (intentional or not) what gets silenced . My feeling is you are > particularly thinking of the Guantanamo translations. One should also think > of what it gains: what starts as a "complete," closed text opens and > becomes > a potential one, which is its life through time. > > A bad translator sees, detects no resistance in the original. If so, as you > state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a text > totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, the very > reverse of what I am talking about. An original resits to be translated. > That's why Benjamin says what gives a text translability is distance. The > translator translates, integrates that distance. That is why a translation > has a tangential relationship to the second language, the distance, > expressed as style, existing as an ideal, a template of potentiality for > it. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 16:45:44 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Nicely Out Of Tune (#2) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Happy Day of The Dead... A new song, a show announcement, and some polly tics... 1) So, just in time for the holidays, & the afternoons of darkness... I got a new XMAS song up, called "The Isle Of Misfit Toys,"at www.myspace.com/startoor 2) Tuesday's election has serious consequences.. In San Francisco, there's a proposition to name a Sewage Plant after President George W. Bush. Please, if you know anybody in San Francisco, tell them to vote NO on this proposition, unless you want the quality of your sewage treatment to get worse! Sewage workers should take pride in their work too! 3) "Nicely Out Of Tune"--second installment of this monthly thing ...(thanks again Amy Blaustein and Vanessa Beggs for performing at the October one)... at the China House... Dylan Brody (from LA) Adam Balbo Helene Renault Chris Stroffolino (maybe with a quiet acoustic root rat thing...) (maybe we'll ust play covers, and such...) In conjunction with KYOU-RADIO (1510 AM) The Robert Urich Foundation ( it supports Cancer research) Saturday November 15, 9PM $5 Door (but no one will be turned away for lack of funds, etc) @ China House-- 1154 E. 12th St. Oakland (Corner of 12th & 12th) (www.myspace.com/happinesshotel) ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 13:43:52 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Edith Vasquez Subject: Proposition 8 in California In-Reply-To: A<5eb0f8fd0811031157u6bf4fb58g4a4251fae0756caa@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello to all from the state of California. We currently have on the ballot for tomorrow, Proposition 8 an anti-gay = marriage initiative. Since many of these types of public initiatives are tested in California for other states, I am wondering a few things with interest in hearing from residents of other states in particular. I am no expert so I am only relying on anecdotal or experiential and = fragmentary knowledge here. I am personally totally opposed to 8. 1.) In the past, this issue was a splinter issue, used for or against candidates as smearing. Is this an exception this year? 2.) I think perhaps Obama and other democrats can see demonstrable comfort in their own chances at winning or keeping their positions, for = some such as Feinstein (no big surprise with her San Francisco base) but others as well are strongly voicing opposition to 8. My = thesis is that gay marriage has broken through the glass ceiling to become an issue of its own, not just fodder for negative campaigning. This is the main reason I am posting--have we seen a changed climate for gay marriage (perhaps a grossly underwhelming thesis here) --and if = true, what are the benchmark moments for this important cross over? 3.) Opponents of 8 apparently include Repub. Governor Mighty Man = Schwarzenegger. 4.) Proponents of 8 are trying to induce fear by saying that gay = marriage will become a part of public education or, "why would the California = Teacher's Union be opposed to it." As a teacher and a parent of two = children in the k-12 school system, I find it interesting that = homophobia and bilingual education have both been vetted through this many times damning public initiative system we have in California. That is, = populism has the potential to damage education. Though perhaps "damage" and = "education" are already one in the same. 5.) Recently, two Korean-American kids I know were called gay in the = boy's locker room at the local middle school in a hateful manner. The next = day, two of the children involved were suspended for punching each other. I find the combination of race-based hostility and homophobia very indicative of how race and gender/sexuality are coupled in school yard hazing. I hope gay marriage is taught to kids, though I doubt that's = what's at stake here. =20 By the way, I am a straight single mother of two boys who I educate in = gay marriage by sharing stories of how one must never be hateful to others, especially to those who are hated by many. These are my thoughts on Prop 8. Thanks, Edith Vasquez -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On = Behalf Of Diego Navarro Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 11:58 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Communiqu=E9 from Chicago: Election 2008 If the topic is considered valid for today, I've written my letter to America too. http://dayvancowboy.org/2008/11/election/ 2008/11/3 Jennifer Karmin > hi poetics friends....thanks to all who have emailed to ask about the > pre-election activity in chicago. i've posted some thoughts on the = les > figues press blog. > > Communiqu=E9 from Chicago: Election 2008 > > > = http://lesfigues.blogspot.com/2008/11/communiqu-from-chicago-pre-election= .html > > onwards, > jennifer karmin > > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check = guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=20 Diego Navarro "Ecrire n'a rien =E0 voir avec signifier, mais avec arpenter, = cartographier, m=EAme de contr=E8es =E0 venir" (Deleuze, G., Guattari, F. (1980) = "Mille Plateaux", ed. Minuit) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check = guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:15:36 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "actually in a very good translation of a poem may exist every bit as much manipulation for a purpose as there does in what you think of as one with bad intentions and so done poorly-- precisely the survival of certain texts through time has depended in ways upon the directions they were shifted by translators who wished to keep them alive-- or, in order to adjust them to seem to be the precursors of a current doctrine, whether of poetry or of the state or other institutions--" David, I am not sure where we are disagreeing. The "misreading" I am talking about does bend the original into "a vision of the original." The translator translates that vision which may create consequences on both sides of the occasion. That is, for example, what Ezra Pound's "The Seafarer" does. It (re-)introduces a music of consonants into English poetry, in opposition to Victorian sonorities. I think you are reacting to the categorical tone of some of my arguments. The truth is I do not believe in false modesty, and I do believe there are good and bad translations. I am trying to explain what I believe transforms translation into a poetic genre -like the lyric or epic or dramatic- rather than a method of reproduction. You also suggest, I think, that my view of translation is abstract, only an application of Benjamin's specific ideas of translation into a method. The reality is that my ideas of translation are derived completely empirically, out of my thirty years of practice. Only when my ideas of translation developed did I begin to see its correspondence with the ideas expressed in "The Task of the Translator." In effect, when I first read that essay, I completely misunderstood it, thinking his references to "intentio" of a language and to "ideal language" more or less gibberish. Only during the writing of the Turkish anthology, developing my concept of "eda," did I become aware of the profundity of those aspects of his essay. In other words, as you say about "The Raven" and "The Philosophy of Composition," Benjamin's essay become for me a means of framing my idea of eda, its foreignness, within a half comprehensible Western framework. Actually, to create "eda," I had to "misread" both Turkish poetry and Walter Benjamin "to my own purposes." That does not mean that "eda," which embodies for me the image of translation, does not say something truthful about both Turkish poetry and Walter Benjamin. Affectionately, Murat On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 5:50 PM, David Chirot wrote: > Dear Murat And Barry: > > > Barry--many thanks for your having checked on the translations and in > comparison with others as you > call them, Straight translations"-- > > though perhaps Spicer may have made use of existing translations to create > his own versions of these translations-- > rather than having made the translations directly from the Spanish-- > (this method is used in many cases actually as a form of translation, > rather > than necessarily "After"--as one may have a translator who knos the > language > make the "straight translation" and the poet then make use of this to > create > heir own translation using the raw translated words-- > -- > (i only suggest these as possibilities-among many---) > > Murat--I think you misunderstand me-- > > what i am trying to present is not ONE version of what translation or > appropriation may be, nor to say that there exists one method only as the > most common, nor two nor three-- > > quite the contrary--what interests me are the ceaseless proliferations > brought about by translations and appropriations--indeed their "After > effects" and further translations and appropriations through time-- > > i think perhaps that what you have found for yourself is a method and > authority in which your profoundly believe and make use of-- > > and judged by this manner, none other really has the same level of > existence > and authority--- > > so, in a sense, the single-mindedness of purpose becomes impatient with the > suggestions of other methods and examples however recognized, actual. > weird, vague, bad or indifferent as well as "authorized" that exist in al > their teeming fecund chaotic rhizomatic voyagings-- > > (i'm not a descendant of French-Indian Voyageurs for nothing,after all!--) > > what interests me is that from one single word in any language may become > such proliferations of meanings, events, personages, writers, singers, > painters, all the world in fact, soldiers, forgers, bombers, martyrs, > presidents and prostitutes--Bible thumpers, gangbangers, all of them--poets > and pall bearers, carnival clowns and congress persons-- > > ghosts, ghost writers, Posthumous ghosthumous writers--"After effects" of > an > After writing of one's own writings such as Musil's early 1930's > collection of his "Posthumous works of a living author"-- > > so it is that i find what you do with translation very beautiful, and at > the > same time i carry in mind many others ways of translating, and ways of > appropriating, whatever their motives and intentions--simply to bear in > mind > that there is no fixed limit on what may be sounded within a word's > depths-- > nor perhaps in the depths of the minds and hearts which make use of these- > > As i noted before, through a series of posts i am hoping to keep alive both > the positive and negative as well as the indifferent and careless or > accidental aspects of appropriations and translations-- > > and as well their spilling out across boundaries, so that a poetical text > lands somewhere else entirely, part of a land dispute--or a conflict over > the types of flowers which oonce appeared in a region--and who may have > been > the ones who planted them--and many other thousands of things besides-- > oepn the newspaper, and there one may find daily some example at work of > this proliferation having effects and After effects in all manner of ways > and means-- > > In one letter, a more negative aspect may seem to be at the fore, and in > the > next a more positive-- > this is to indicate that sense of language of Burroughs' "no final glossary > may be made of words whose intentions are fugitive"-- > > actually I hadn't been thinking at all of the Guantanamo Poems about which > i > have on line some essays--but rather the daily uses of translation as well > as the poetic ones, for to me what is intersting is how these are > interrelated, rather than separate-- > > which is one of the bases for my series re "The New Extreme Experimental > Poetry and Arts"-- > > actually in a very good translation of a poem may exist every bit as much > manipulation for a purpose as there does in what you think of as one with > bad intentions and so done poorly-- > > precisely the survival of certain texts through time has depended in ways > upon the directions they were shifted by translators who wished to keep > them > alive-- > or, in order to adjust them to seem to be the precursors of a current > doctrine, whether of poetry or of the state or other institutions-- > > this is why translations are always being done over again, new ones > appearing to displace the old--in order to give a sense of the works being > "part of and important for our times" as well as for their own-- > > this is a matter of"poetry politics" often just as much as it may be of > "national politics"-- > > so it is that a current poet may give one a version which is far more in > tune with the current kinds of poetry considered the most important or > best-- > > and this new version may not be much like a previous "outdated" one-- > > and yet considered to be a very good one in part because it does indeed, > make the translated poet much more "available" to the modern reader -- > > i am not disagreeing with you or Benjamin, at all, but simply saying that > what interests me personally is the proliferations of possibilities of > appropriation and translation, which extend writing into other realms of > endeavor, and create After effects quite unexpected by the original > source-- > > the danger of thinking that there are only certain models of translation in > existence by which to examine translations and to create them with--is that > there will become a creation of forms of conventionalism-conformity---which > in a sense denies the immense variety of possibilities, and in so doing, > actually makes it easier for other more sinister versions to slip > themselves > into the mix and not be noticed, or simply waved to the side--as being of > little importance--or quality--when in fact they may be carrying along > something of great significance, for the bad or good--yet which bears being > aware of-- > > in a sense one might say that i am not driven by a "rationale" so much as > by > a sense never ceasing of amazement, of being astounded, by the ways in > which > words are used, their incredible paradoxes and paradoxical After and "side > effects," the ways in which they can be used to sell anything from Gods to > garbage bags, Presidents to pills--and as well make poetry that stops the > blood cold-- > > in turn the sense of amazement has its companion, skepticism--questioning, > awareness of quantum leaps and uncertainty--of camouflages and the beings > of > things wccih do not want to be as it were recognized--translated or > appropriated--not because of "resistances"--but something else, an > outside-- > > "The hills know but do not tell"--as Emily Dickinson puts it-- > and the Tao which can be named is not the Tao-- > > > in the word "After" in Spicer's title is also another meaning, besides the > predatory one you write of-- which is that this is written as it were > "after > the affair is over" in order in a sense to comprehend what Spicer is > finding > are its "After effects"-- > > Spicer indicates this in the "Last letter" and also in the final stanza of > "Radar" the postscript poem dedicated to marianne moore which "ends" the > book and the letter, the final letter to Lorca. > > These words of a vanished forever ghost lover are, to me at any rate, > heartbreakingly beautiful--almost too much to bear to read-- > > Here is both the "After" the summer affair of love--and also--the "After > effects"--as Spicer depicts them (with on the way, in this last letter, > also > a discussion of "Poe's mechanical chess player."--Again, an After effect of > Poe as I have been discussing these-- > > From the letter's third paragraph: > > *"Yet it was there. ("The intimate communion with the ghost of Garcia > Lorca" which now "is over.") The poems are there, the memory not of a > vision but a kind of casual friendship with an undramatic ghost who > occasionally looked through my eyes and whispered to me, not really more > important than my other friends, but now achieving a level of reality by > being missing. Today, alone by myself, it is like having lost a pair of > eyes and a lover. > "What is real, I suppose will endure. Poe's mechanical chess player > was not the less a miracle for having a man inside it, and when the man > departed, the games it had played were no less beautiful. The analogy is > false, of course, but it holds both a promise and a warning for each of us. > "It is October now. Summer is over. Almost every trace of the months > of that produced these poems has been obliterated. Only explanations are > possible, only regrets. > "Saying goodbye to a ghost is more final than saying goodbye to a > lover. Even the dead return, but a ghost, once loved, will never reappear. > > Love, Jack > > And here is the final stanza of the postscript poem, Radar" > (which, notice, is a palindrome-the same read backwards and forwards--) > > "I crawled into bed with sorrow that night > Couldn't touch his fingers. See the splash > Of the water > The noisy movement of the cloud > The push of the humpbacked mountains > Deep at the sand's edge.' > * > > > These "After effects" are real for Spicer, as what happened is becoming, > now > that it is over, and seen in this "After" existence--ever more real--even > as > it as a ghost lover is gone forever--the missing of it becomes a reality > almost too much to bear and yet, as Spicer says--"It will endure." > > It is another aspect of Poe's "mournful and never ending remembrance" of > the lost loved one, now dead-Just as "The Philosophy of Composition" is an > After effect of the poem "The Raven," so this final letter to Lorca is a > coming to terms with finding a "philosophy of composition" in order to > understand why the now departed ghost lover is becoming more real than it > had been while present, in part because it will never reappear again, and > how it was that the poems were composed, came to be, without at the time > realizing what was happening--not until they had the opportunity to be as > they have become, the generators of a time's memory which has turned into a > missing reality, never again to return. It is in the After-event, > After-effect that the "philosophy of composition" becomes a reality--and > the > poetry which preceded becomes in turn "more real" than previously the poet > had been aware of. > > > This distance--into which a dead ghost lover is forever departed--never to > return-- > is a "real and final" distance, the full force of an intimacy never to be > again-- > and so is the distance which has a life of its own-- > out side and away from the poet and the poem-- > and to be an outside also for the reader-- > > In a sense, this kind of distance is what i write of as things which do not > want to be appropriated or translated, but to be what they are, distance, > never to reappear--never to be possessed-- > > i n a sense, writing itself, and also a writer, may wish to keep a privacy > even within the writing, which will never be found, not by anyone, because > the ghost lover it is created with is gone for ever-- > or because there are things which ghosts and writers wish to keep to > themselves, just as writing itself may have such things which are never > found that are living with in it-- > as though in fact long gone--never to reappear-- > > and yet one day one finds--hidden in plain sight/site/cite-- > which "neither speaks nor conceals but gives signs" > as Heraclitus says of the One Whose Oracle is at Delphi-- > > Also, if one is adopting so completely the method of Benjamin, in a sense > are you not creating what you see as an opposition to your own work's > claims > within it: > > "If so, as you > > state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a text > > totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, the > very > > reverse of what I am talking about." > > That is, if one is so embracing the philosophy of translation of Benjamin, > is not one in effect running the risk of turning the original "totally" not > into the translator's image, but in to the image of the philosophy of > translation which is guiding the translator? > > is not one in a sense working then in the service of a particular > philosophy > of translation? > > This is one of the reasons why i essay to keep alive the sense of the > incredibly teeming and endlessly imaginative and inventive ways in which > translations and appropriations may be created and used, whether for good > or > bad, better or worse, in order that one has a sense that there are always > going to be at least two sides to every coin, and once it is being flipped > about-- > well--who knows how many different sides may suddenly show up via the > actions of palming and shifting the coin as it is being flipped-- > > What i hope to convey with readers or listeners if there are any real or > imagainary ones about is that words and phrases poems and prose lead lives > of their own as well as the ones which a writer may or not have > intended--and any given reader have found or put there along the way--and > that even when things seem to be one way, it is always interesting if not > often quite useful to find other ways in which the words may be > understood--for in them are living beings--with whom to engage-- > or who wish to engage themselves with oneself-- > > The more ways these words are understood as alive-- > is not this then to proliferate the lives of what are called writers and > readers-- > as realities with real effects and After effects-- > > one thinks of the resistances of texts--why not also of those of living > beings-- > and of the outside-- > > in the sense in which a Russian artist says that "Language is a fascism, > not > becuase it censors, but because it forces one to speak." > > a sense of words whose intentions are fugitive, not to be trapped inside a > prison of languages which one is forced to speak-- > > to continue--on the move-- > as though one were indeed a hill set in movement-- > yet, seen as a hill-- > not expected nor forced to speak-- > > > > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:24:31 -0500 > > From: muratnn@GMAIL.COM > > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > David, > > > > At the bifurcation they part Y one sling, yet in my heart one > > sling shot. > > > > The word "After" in Spicer's poem does not only mean "in imitation of" or > > "in homage to." It also means "in pursuit of; it has a predatory > > connotation. In fact, Lorca's reactions from the grave to Spicer's > > solicitations is one of annoyance." A true translation is always an act > of > > violence -loving or otherwise, that is the issue- against the autonomy of > > the original. It literally must tear it up -fragment it- to open it up to > a > > future life, the life of the text. This fragmentation does have the > elements > > of collage. Are you familiar with Eliot Weinberger's essay, "Notes On > > Translation" [?] of about fifteen years ago about which Kent Johnson > wrote > > an article which appears in the last issue of ALTA's *The Translation > Review > > *? > > > > In your comments, you focus on what a text loses in translation, through > > misreading (intentional or not) what gets silenced . My feeling is you > are > > particularly thinking of the Guantanamo translations. One should also > think > > of what it gains: what starts as a "complete," closed text opens and > becomes > > a potential one, which is its life through time. > > > > A bad translator sees, detects no resistance in the original. If so, as > you > > state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a text > > totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, the > very > > reverse of what I am talking about. An original resits to be translated. > > That's why Benjamin says what gives a text translability is distance. The > > translator translates, integrates that distance. That is why a > translation > > has a tangential relationship to the second language, the distance, > > expressed as style, existing as an ideal, a template of potentiality for > it. > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 5:24 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat > wrote: > > > David, > > > > At the bifurcation they part Y one sling, yet in my heart > one > > sling shot. > > > > The word "After" in Spicer's poem does not only mean "in imitation of" or > > "in homage to." It also means "in pursuit of; it has a predatory > > connotation. In fact, Lorca's reactions from the grave to Spicer's > > solicitations is one of annoyance." A true translation is always an act > of > > violence -loving or otherwise, that is the issue- against the autonomy of > > the original. It literally must tear it up -fragment it- to open it up to > a > > future life, the life of the text. This fragmentation does have the > > elements > > of collage. Are you familiar with Eliot Weinberger's essay, "Notes On > > Translation" [?] of about fifteen years ago about which Kent Johnson > wrote > > an article which appears in the last issue of ALTA's *The Translation > > Review > > *? > > > > In your comments, you focus on what a text loses in translation, through > > misreading (intentional or not) what gets silenced . My feeling is you > are > > particularly thinking of the Guantanamo translations. One should also > think > > of what it gains: what starts as a "complete," closed text opens and > > becomes > > a potential one, which is its life through time. > > > > A bad translator sees, detects no resistance in the original. If so, as > you > > state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a text > > totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, the > very > > reverse of what I am talking about. An original resits to be translated. > > That's why Benjamin says what gives a text translability is distance. The > > translator translates, integrates that distance. That is why a > translation > > has a tangential relationship to the second language, the distance, > > expressed as style, existing as an ideal, a template of potentiality for > > it. > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:44:27 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: The fourth the fifth the minor fall the major lift MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've heard there was a secret chord That David played, and it pleased the Lord But you don't really care for music, do you? It goes like this The fourth, the fifth The minor fall, the major lift The baffled king composing Hallelujah http://vispo.com/temp/TheFourthTheFifthTheMinorFallTheMajorLift.m3u http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallelujah_(song) http://www.allisoncrowe.com/leonardcohenhallelujahlyrics.html http://youtube.com/results?search_query=hallelujah Listening to music on the Internet. You want a song, you search for it in eMule. You download five different versions of it for free and listen to them all. You use google to search for the lyrics, find several versions, and also find a Wikipedia entry that details the lore of the song. Then you search youtube for videos of the song and listen to it that way for a while. Wow. Incredible. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:13:39 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tim Peterson Subject: Multifarious Array 11/7: Tim Peterson, Kate Broad, Adam Tobin, & Dave Carillo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *Pete's Big Poetry Series / The Multifarious Array presents:* *Tim Peterson, Kate Broad, Adam Tobin, & Dave Carillo* Hosted by Sommer Browning Friday, November 7, 2008 7:00pm - 9:00pm Pete's Candy Store 709 Lorimer St. Brooklyn, NY Tim Peterson lives in Brooklyn and writes poetry, all the while seeking out other complexly gendered individuals for companionship and connection, hungry for articulations of reading and being read as voiced experiences hunting you like a bluejay. SINCE I MOVED IN (Gil Ott Award, Chax Press) was published in 2007. Tim edits EOAGH: A Journal of the Arts. Adam Tobin owns and operates Unnameable Books, a new and used bookstore in central Brooklyn. He is author of Ode to Pumpsie Green & Stretch Phillips (horse less press, 2005) and editor of The Weekly Weakling (forthcoming), a series of occasional letterpress pamphlets. You may have seen his older work in EOAGH or Fence or other publications, but he hasn't really written much since he opened the bookstore. He promises, however, to read at this reading at least one poem you've never seen before. David Carillo lives in West Hartford with his wife and dog. He is working on his MFA in Creative Nonfiction at the University of Pittsburgh and teaches English at the University of Connecticut at Waterbury. He has poems forthcoming in Nanomajority. Kate Broad has lived in India and Brazil and currently resides in Brooklyn, where she is a doctoral student in English at the City University of New York Graduate Center. She has poems in Freshwater, The Wellesley Review, and forthcoming in Karamu, and has won several writing awards, including one from the Academy of American Poets. Kate is working on her first full-length manuscript, Hard to Swallow. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:11:40 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Nov 7: Poetry & Chicago Convocation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Friday, November 7th=20 12pm at Loyola University Lake Shore Campus in Rogers Park FEATURING TALKS & READINGS BY: Lisa Fishman, poetry & farming Jennifer Karmin, poetry & activism John Keene, poetry & collaboration Quraysh Ali Lansana, poetry & history Robyn Schiff, poetry & publishing Abraham Smith, poetry & performance The event is free and open to the public=20 Lunch will be served between the poets' brief talks and readings Hosted by Loyola University Chicago=20 in the Multi-Purpose Room of the Simpson Living Learning Center=20 on Sheridan Boulevard at the corner of Winthrop & Sheridan=20 two blocks from the Loyola train station on the CTA Red Line LISA FISHMAN is the author of several books, most recently Dear Read and=20= The Happiness Experiment (both from Ahsahta Press). She lives in rural=20= Wisconsin and Chicago and is Assistant Professor at Columbia College Chic= ago. JENNIFER KARMIN's Aaaaaaaaaaalice cantos are anthologized in A Sing=20 Economy (Flim Forum Press). She teaches creative writing to immigrants a= t=20 Truman College, works as a Poet-in-Residence for the Chicago Public Schoo= ls,=20 and presents her public art projects nationally. JOHN KEENE is the author of Annotations (New Directions) and Seismosis(wi= th=20 Christopher Stackhouse / 1913 Press). He lives in Chicago and is Associat= e=20 Professor at Northwestern University. QURAYSH ALI LANSANA is the author of several books including They Shall R= un- -Harriet Tubman Poems and southside rain (both from Third World Press). H= e=20 directs the Gwendolyn Brooks Center and teaches at Chicago State Universi= ty. ROBYN SCHIFF is the author of Worth and Revolver (both from U of Iowa=20 Press). She lives in Iowa City where she directs the undergraduate creat= ive=20 writing program at the University of Iowa. ABRAHAM SMITH is the author of Whim Man Mammon (Action Books) and=20 teaches at the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:08:58 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: William Allegrezza Subject: Series A Wednesday--Glomski, Steinhoff, Tipton Comments: To: wallegre@iun.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Please come to Series A on Wednesday, November 5, 7:00-8:00 p.m. The readers will be: Chris Glomski John Tipton (works read by Peter O'Leary) Eirik Steinhoff The reading will be held at the Hyde Park Art Center. 5020 S. Cornell Avenue Chicago, IL BYOB. For more information including reader bios, past audio clips, and photos, visit http://www.moriapoetry.com/seriesa.html Bill Allegrezza ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:34:32 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0811032115q74280339pd816634b3e03a513@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Murat: Oh my goodness, no-- I am not disagreeing with you at all, Murat. The section you quote here is just me rattling off more of variations of ways appropriation can be and has been applied through time. Forgive the sudden outburst of this "flash flood" of words words and more words! I think you know one of the great many reasons I admire and respect your work so much--not only the translations--but also the poetry and the book on photography and your essays-- is that you have precisely the empirical approach to your thoughts and words that you note--so that at one point in time, the Benjamin seems incomprehensible, fantastic, yet through working continually one breaks through into understanding--"a profane illumination" occurs, and one does indeed recognize the actions and presences of the "chips of messianic Time" as they are Illuminated-- Many of Benjamin's works have had a profound effect on myself also. My ragged ideas and "works" have a similar approach with yours as they come through time, and along the way, one jettisons a good number--and finds more to think on, and in turn these link or not via associations with previous ones, in turn creating new series of associations--only through practice and walking around all over and in all sorts of places and hauling them about and exposing them to the elements --does one arrive at some further depths as these seep in through the various crackings and crevices, crevasses and collapses of decompostions, synchronicties, corrosions-- a prolonged series of of seismic shiftings which continually keep things on the move-- and here and there the quantum leap of the unexpected, the uncanny, a sudden running directly in to a wall--of graffiti of the eslehweres that tumble out of the skies --as ever, in friendship and respect-- david through the chink in the fence-- a strip of sky & earthen wall-- in what faraway land among hostile forests-- to sit in someone else's room among books not mine & write about the sky to pen ghosts' writings, scrawl notations of phantom songs-- the untold, the unwritten scenes-- hidden,-- ever-- in plain sight On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 9:15 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > "actually in a very good translation of a poem may exist every bit as much > manipulation for a purpose as there does in what you think of as one with > bad intentions and so done poorly-- > > precisely the survival of certain texts through time has depended in ways > upon the directions they were shifted by translators who wished to keep > them > alive-- > or, in order to adjust them to seem to be the precursors of a current > doctrine, whether of poetry or of the state or other institutions--" > > > David, > > I am not sure where we are disagreeing. The "misreading" I am talking about > does bend the original into "a vision of the original." The translator > translates that vision which may create consequences on both sides of the > occasion. That is, for example, what Ezra Pound's "The Seafarer" does. It > (re-)introduces a music of consonants into English poetry, in opposition to > Victorian sonorities. > > I think you are reacting to the categorical tone of some of my arguments. > The truth is I do not believe in false modesty, and I do believe there are > good and bad translations. I am trying to explain what I believe transforms > translation into a poetic genre -like the lyric or epic or dramatic- rather > than a method of reproduction. You also suggest, I think, that my view of > translation is abstract, only an application of Benjamin's specific ideas > of > translation into a method. The reality is that my ideas of translation are > derived completely empirically, out of my thirty years of practice. Only > when my ideas of translation developed did I begin to see its > correspondence > with the ideas expressed in "The Task of the Translator." In effect, when I > first read that essay, I completely misunderstood it, thinking his > references to "intentio" of a language and to "ideal language" more or less > gibberish. Only during the writing of the Turkish anthology, developing my > concept of "eda," did I become aware of the profundity of those aspects of > his essay. In other words, as you say about "The Raven" and "The Philosophy > of Composition," Benjamin's essay become for me a means of framing my idea > of eda, its foreignness, within a half comprehensible Western framework. > Actually, to create "eda," I had to "misread" both Turkish poetry and > Walter > Benjamin "to my own purposes." That does not mean that "eda," which > embodies > for me the image of translation, does not say something truthful about both > Turkish poetry and Walter Benjamin. > > Affectionately, > > Murat > > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 5:50 PM, David Chirot > wrote: > > > Dear Murat And Barry: > > > > > > Barry--many thanks for your having checked on the translations and in > > comparison with others as you > > call them, Straight translations"-- > > > > though perhaps Spicer may have made use of existing translations to > create > > his own versions of these translations-- > > rather than having made the translations directly from the Spanish-- > > (this method is used in many cases actually as a form of translation, > > rather > > than necessarily "After"--as one may have a translator who knos the > > language > > make the "straight translation" and the poet then make use of this to > > create > > heir own translation using the raw translated words-- > > -- > > (i only suggest these as possibilities-among many---) > > > > Murat--I think you misunderstand me-- > > > > what i am trying to present is not ONE version of what translation or > > appropriation may be, nor to say that there exists one method only as the > > most common, nor two nor three-- > > > > quite the contrary--what interests me are the ceaseless proliferations > > brought about by translations and appropriations--indeed their "After > > effects" and further translations and appropriations through time-- > > > > i think perhaps that what you have found for yourself is a method and > > authority in which your profoundly believe and make use of-- > > > > and judged by this manner, none other really has the same level of > > existence > > and authority--- > > > > so, in a sense, the single-mindedness of purpose becomes impatient with > the > > suggestions of other methods and examples however recognized, actual. > > weird, vague, bad or indifferent as well as "authorized" that exist in al > > their teeming fecund chaotic rhizomatic voyagings-- > > > > (i'm not a descendant of French-Indian Voyageurs for nothing,after > all!--) > > > > what interests me is that from one single word in any language may become > > such proliferations of meanings, events, personages, writers, singers, > > painters, all the world in fact, soldiers, forgers, bombers, martyrs, > > presidents and prostitutes--Bible thumpers, gangbangers, all of > them--poets > > and pall bearers, carnival clowns and congress persons-- > > > > ghosts, ghost writers, Posthumous ghosthumous writers--"After effects" of > > an > > After writing of one's own writings such as Musil's early 1930's > > collection of his "Posthumous works of a living author"-- > > > > so it is that i find what you do with translation very beautiful, and at > > the > > same time i carry in mind many others ways of translating, and ways of > > appropriating, whatever their motives and intentions--simply to bear in > > mind > > that there is no fixed limit on what may be sounded within a word's > > depths-- > > nor perhaps in the depths of the minds and hearts which make use of > these- > > > > As i noted before, through a series of posts i am hoping to keep alive > both > > the positive and negative as well as the indifferent and careless or > > accidental aspects of appropriations and translations-- > > > > and as well their spilling out across boundaries, so that a poetical text > > lands somewhere else entirely, part of a land dispute--or a conflict over > > the types of flowers which oonce appeared in a region--and who may have > > been > > the ones who planted them--and many other thousands of things besides-- > > oepn the newspaper, and there one may find daily some example at work of > > this proliferation having effects and After effects in all manner of ways > > and means-- > > > > In one letter, a more negative aspect may seem to be at the fore, and in > > the > > next a more positive-- > > this is to indicate that sense of language of Burroughs' "no final > glossary > > may be made of words whose intentions are fugitive"-- > > > > actually I hadn't been thinking at all of the Guantanamo Poems about > which > > i > > have on line some essays--but rather the daily uses of translation as > well > > as the poetic ones, for to me what is intersting is how these are > > interrelated, rather than separate-- > > > > which is one of the bases for my series re "The New Extreme Experimental > > Poetry and Arts"-- > > > > actually in a very good translation of a poem may exist every bit as much > > manipulation for a purpose as there does in what you think of as one with > > bad intentions and so done poorly-- > > > > precisely the survival of certain texts through time has depended in ways > > upon the directions they were shifted by translators who wished to keep > > them > > alive-- > > or, in order to adjust them to seem to be the precursors of a current > > doctrine, whether of poetry or of the state or other institutions-- > > > > this is why translations are always being done over again, new ones > > appearing to displace the old--in order to give a sense of the works > being > > "part of and important for our times" as well as for their own-- > > > > this is a matter of"poetry politics" often just as much as it may be of > > "national politics"-- > > > > so it is that a current poet may give one a version which is far more in > > tune with the current kinds of poetry considered the most important or > > best-- > > > > and this new version may not be much like a previous "outdated" one-- > > > > and yet considered to be a very good one in part because it does indeed, > > make the translated poet much more "available" to the modern reader -- > > > > i am not disagreeing with you or Benjamin, at all, but simply saying that > > what interests me personally is the proliferations of possibilities of > > appropriation and translation, which extend writing into other realms of > > endeavor, and create After effects quite unexpected by the original > > source-- > > > > the danger of thinking that there are only certain models of translation > in > > existence by which to examine translations and to create them with--is > that > > there will become a creation of forms of > conventionalism-conformity---which > > in a sense denies the immense variety of possibilities, and in so doing, > > actually makes it easier for other more sinister versions to slip > > themselves > > into the mix and not be noticed, or simply waved to the side--as being of > > little importance--or quality--when in fact they may be carrying along > > something of great significance, for the bad or good--yet which bears > being > > aware of-- > > > > in a sense one might say that i am not driven by a "rationale" so much as > > by > > a sense never ceasing of amazement, of being astounded, by the ways in > > which > > words are used, their incredible paradoxes and paradoxical After and > "side > > effects," the ways in which they can be used to sell anything from Gods > to > > garbage bags, Presidents to pills--and as well make poetry that stops the > > blood cold-- > > > > in turn the sense of amazement has its companion, > skepticism--questioning, > > awareness of quantum leaps and uncertainty--of camouflages and the beings > > of > > things wccih do not want to be as it were recognized--translated or > > appropriated--not because of "resistances"--but something else, an > > outside-- > > > > "The hills know but do not tell"--as Emily Dickinson puts it-- > > and the Tao which can be named is not the Tao-- > > > > > > in the word "After" in Spicer's title is also another meaning, besides > the > > predatory one you write of-- which is that this is written as it were > > "after > > the affair is over" in order in a sense to comprehend what Spicer is > > finding > > are its "After effects"-- > > > > Spicer indicates this in the "Last letter" and also in the final stanza > of > > "Radar" the postscript poem dedicated to marianne moore which "ends" the > > book and the letter, the final letter to Lorca. > > > > These words of a vanished forever ghost lover are, to me at any rate, > > heartbreakingly beautiful--almost too much to bear to read-- > > > > Here is both the "After" the summer affair of love--and also--the "After > > effects"--as Spicer depicts them (with on the way, in this last letter, > > also > > a discussion of "Poe's mechanical chess player."--Again, an After effect > of > > Poe as I have been discussing these-- > > > > From the letter's third paragraph: > > > > *"Yet it was there. ("The intimate communion with the ghost of Garcia > > Lorca" which now "is over.") The poems are there, the memory not of a > > vision but a kind of casual friendship with an undramatic ghost who > > occasionally looked through my eyes and whispered to me, not really more > > important than my other friends, but now achieving a level of reality by > > being missing. Today, alone by myself, it is like having lost a pair of > > eyes and a lover. > > "What is real, I suppose will endure. Poe's mechanical chess > player > > was not the less a miracle for having a man inside it, and when the man > > departed, the games it had played were no less beautiful. The analogy is > > false, of course, but it holds both a promise and a warning for each of > us. > > "It is October now. Summer is over. Almost every trace of the > months > > of that produced these poems has been obliterated. Only explanations are > > possible, only regrets. > > "Saying goodbye to a ghost is more final than saying goodbye to a > > lover. Even the dead return, but a ghost, once loved, will never > reappear. > > > > Love, Jack > > > > And here is the final stanza of the postscript poem, Radar" > > (which, notice, is a palindrome-the same read backwards and forwards--) > > > > "I crawled into bed with sorrow that night > > Couldn't touch his fingers. See the splash > > Of the water > > The noisy movement of the cloud > > The push of the humpbacked mountains > > Deep at the sand's edge.' > > * > > > > > > These "After effects" are real for Spicer, as what happened is becoming, > > now > > that it is over, and seen in this "After" existence--ever more real--even > > as > > it as a ghost lover is gone forever--the missing of it becomes a reality > > almost too much to bear and yet, as Spicer says--"It will endure." > > > > It is another aspect of Poe's "mournful and never ending remembrance" of > > the lost loved one, now dead-Just as "The Philosophy of Composition" is > an > > After effect of the poem "The Raven," so this final letter to Lorca is a > > coming to terms with finding a "philosophy of composition" in order to > > understand why the now departed ghost lover is becoming more real than it > > had been while present, in part because it will never reappear again, and > > how it was that the poems were composed, came to be, without at the time > > realizing what was happening--not until they had the opportunity to be as > > they have become, the generators of a time's memory which has turned into > a > > missing reality, never again to return. It is in the After-event, > > After-effect that the "philosophy of composition" becomes a reality--and > > the > > poetry which preceded becomes in turn "more real" than previously the > poet > > had been aware of. > > > > > > This distance--into which a dead ghost lover is forever departed--never > to > > return-- > > is a "real and final" distance, the full force of an intimacy never to be > > again-- > > and so is the distance which has a life of its own-- > > out side and away from the poet and the poem-- > > and to be an outside also for the reader-- > > > > In a sense, this kind of distance is what i write of as things which do > not > > want to be appropriated or translated, but to be what they are, distance, > > never to reappear--never to be possessed-- > > > > i n a sense, writing itself, and also a writer, may wish to keep a > privacy > > even within the writing, which will never be found, not by anyone, > because > > the ghost lover it is created with is gone for ever-- > > or because there are things which ghosts and writers wish to keep to > > themselves, just as writing itself may have such things which are never > > found that are living with in it-- > > as though in fact long gone--never to reappear-- > > > > and yet one day one finds--hidden in plain sight/site/cite-- > > which "neither speaks nor conceals but gives signs" > > as Heraclitus says of the One Whose Oracle is at Delphi-- > > > > Also, if one is adopting so completely the method of Benjamin, in a sense > > are you not creating what you see as an opposition to your own work's > > claims > > within it: > > > > "If so, as you > > > state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a > text > > > totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, the > > very > > > reverse of what I am talking about." > > > > That is, if one is so embracing the philosophy of translation of > Benjamin, > > is not one in effect running the risk of turning the original "totally" > not > > into the translator's image, but in to the image of the philosophy of > > translation which is guiding the translator? > > > > is not one in a sense working then in the service of a particular > > philosophy > > of translation? > > > > This is one of the reasons why i essay to keep alive the sense of the > > incredibly teeming and endlessly imaginative and inventive ways in which > > translations and appropriations may be created and used, whether for good > > or > > bad, better or worse, in order that one has a sense that there are always > > going to be at least two sides to every coin, and once it is being > flipped > > about-- > > well--who knows how many different sides may suddenly show up via the > > actions of palming and shifting the coin as it is being flipped-- > > > > What i hope to convey with readers or listeners if there are any real or > > imagainary ones about is that words and phrases poems and prose lead > lives > > of their own as well as the ones which a writer may or not have > > intended--and any given reader have found or put there along the way--and > > that even when things seem to be one way, it is always interesting if > not > > often quite useful to find other ways in which the words may be > > understood--for in them are living beings--with whom to engage-- > > or who wish to engage themselves with oneself-- > > > > The more ways these words are understood as alive-- > > is not this then to proliferate the lives of what are called writers and > > readers-- > > as realities with real effects and After effects-- > > > > one thinks of the resistances of texts--why not also of those of living > > beings-- > > and of the outside-- > > > > in the sense in which a Russian artist says that "Language is a fascism, > > not > > becuase it censors, but because it forces one to speak." > > > > a sense of words whose intentions are fugitive, not to be trapped inside > a > > prison of languages which one is forced to speak-- > > > > to continue--on the move-- > > as though one were indeed a hill set in movement-- > > yet, seen as a hill-- > > not expected nor forced to speak-- > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:24:31 -0500 > > > From: muratnn@GMAIL.COM > > > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > > David, > > > > > > At the bifurcation they part Y one sling, yet in my heart one > > > sling shot. > > > > > > The word "After" in Spicer's poem does not only mean "in imitation of" > or > > > "in homage to." It also means "in pursuit of; it has a predatory > > > connotation. In fact, Lorca's reactions from the grave to Spicer's > > > solicitations is one of annoyance." A true translation is always an act > > of > > > violence -loving or otherwise, that is the issue- against the autonomy > of > > > the original. It literally must tear it up -fragment it- to open it up > to > > a > > > future life, the life of the text. This fragmentation does have the > > elements > > > of collage. Are you familiar with Eliot Weinberger's essay, "Notes On > > > Translation" [?] of about fifteen years ago about which Kent Johnson > > wrote > > > an article which appears in the last issue of ALTA's *The Translation > > Review > > > *? > > > > > > In your comments, you focus on what a text loses in translation, > through > > > misreading (intentional or not) what gets silenced . My feeling is you > > are > > > particularly thinking of the Guantanamo translations. One should also > > think > > > of what it gains: what starts as a "complete," closed text opens and > > becomes > > > a potential one, which is its life through time. > > > > > > A bad translator sees, detects no resistance in the original. If so, as > > you > > > state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a > text > > > totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, the > > very > > > reverse of what I am talking about. An original resits to be > translated. > > > That's why Benjamin says what gives a text translability is distance. > The > > > translator translates, integrates that distance. That is why a > > translation > > > has a tangential relationship to the second language, the distance, > > > expressed as style, existing as an ideal, a template of potentiality > for > > it. > > > > > > Ciao, > > > > > > Murat > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 5:24 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat > > wrote: > > > > > David, > > > > > > At the bifurcation they part Y one sling, yet in my heart > > one > > > sling shot. > > > > > > The word "After" in Spicer's poem does not only mean "in imitation of" > or > > > "in homage to." It also means "in pursuit of; it has a predatory > > > connotation. In fact, Lorca's reactions from the grave to Spicer's > > > solicitations is one of annoyance." A true translation is always an act > > of > > > violence -loving or otherwise, that is the issue- against the autonomy > of > > > the original. It literally must tear it up -fragment it- to open it up > to > > a > > > future life, the life of the text. This fragmentation does have the > > > elements > > > of collage. Are you familiar with Eliot Weinberger's essay, "Notes On > > > Translation" [?] of about fifteen years ago about which Kent Johnson > > wrote > > > an article which appears in the last issue of ALTA's *The Translation > > > Review > > > *? > > > > > > In your comments, you focus on what a text loses in translation, > through > > > misreading (intentional or not) what gets silenced . My feeling is you > > are > > > particularly thinking of the Guantanamo translations. One should also > > think > > > of what it gains: what starts as a "complete," closed text opens and > > > becomes > > > a potential one, which is its life through time. > > > > > > A bad translator sees, detects no resistance in the original. If so, as > > you > > > state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a > text > > > totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, the > > very > > > reverse of what I am talking about. An original resits to be > translated. > > > That's why Benjamin says what gives a text translability is distance. > The > > > translator translates, integrates that distance. That is why a > > translation > > > has a tangential relationship to the second language, the distance, > > > expressed as style, existing as an ideal, a template of potentiality > for > > > it. > > > > > > Ciao, > > > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 14:51:45 -0800 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "from one single word in any language such proliferations of meanings, events, personages, writers, singers, painters, all the world in fact, soldiers, forgers, bombers, martyrs, presidents and prostitutes--Bible thumpers, gangbangers, all of them--poets"... translation/interpretation: Samuel Beckett wanted to avoid the play in English/ so he wrote in French. & i suspect he worked closely with whom/ever translated his work. Curious, however, that he never allowed much interpretation, or spin, outside the words. He wouldn't allow a director to give endgame or Godot a post nuclear spin. Think of the long dead, those outside the popular domain (in the legal sense). --- On Mon, 11/3/08, David Chirot wrote: > From: David Chirot > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 5:50 PM > Dear Murat And Barry: > > > Barry--many thanks for your having checked on the > translations and in > comparison with others as you > call them, Straight translations"-- > > though perhaps Spicer may have made use of existing > translations to create > his own versions of these translations-- > rather than having made the translations directly from the > Spanish-- > (this method is used in many cases actually as a form of > translation, rather > than necessarily "After"--as one may have a > translator who knos the language > make the "straight translation" and the poet then > make use of this to create > heir own translation using the raw translated words-- > -- > (i only suggest these as possibilities-among many---) > > Murat--I think you misunderstand me-- > > what i am trying to present is not ONE version of what > translation or > appropriation may be, nor to say that there exists one > method only as the > most common, nor two nor three-- > > quite the contrary--what interests me are the ceaseless > proliferations > brought about by translations and appropriations--indeed > their "After > effects" and further translations and appropriations > through time-- > > i think perhaps that what you have found for yourself is a > method and > authority in which your profoundly believe and make use > of-- > > and judged by this manner, none other really has the same > level of existence > and authority--- > > so, in a sense, the single-mindedness of purpose becomes > impatient with the > suggestions of other methods and examples however > recognized, actual. > weird, vague, bad or indifferent as well as > "authorized" that exist in al > their teeming fecund chaotic rhizomatic voyagings-- > > (i'm not a descendant of French-Indian Voyageurs for > nothing,after all!--) > > what interests me is that from one single word in any > language may become > such proliferations of meanings, events, personages, > writers, singers, > painters, all the world in fact, soldiers, forgers, > bombers, martyrs, > presidents and prostitutes--Bible thumpers, gangbangers, > all of them--poets > and pall bearers, carnival clowns and congress persons-- > > ghosts, ghost writers, Posthumous ghosthumous > writers--"After effects" of an > After writing of one's own writings such as Musil's > early 1930's > collection of his "Posthumous works of a living > author"-- > > so it is that i find what you do with translation very > beautiful, and at the > same time i carry in mind many others ways of translating, > and ways of > appropriating, whatever their motives and > intentions--simply to bear in mind > that there is no fixed limit on what may be sounded within > a word's depths-- > nor perhaps in the depths of the minds and hearts which > make use of these- > > As i noted before, through a series of posts i am hoping to > keep alive both > the positive and negative as well as the indifferent and > careless or > accidental aspects of appropriations and translations-- > > and as well their spilling out across boundaries, so that a > poetical text > lands somewhere else entirely, part of a land dispute--or a > conflict over > the types of flowers which oonce appeared in a region--and > who may have been > the ones who planted them--and many other thousands of > things besides-- > oepn the newspaper, and there one may find daily some > example at work of > this proliferation having effects and After effects in all > manner of ways > and means-- > > In one letter, a more negative aspect may seem to be at the > fore, and in the > next a more positive-- > this is to indicate that sense of language of > Burroughs' "no final glossary > may be made of words whose intentions are fugitive"-- > > actually I hadn't been thinking at all of the > Guantanamo Poems about which i > have on line some essays--but rather the daily uses of > translation as well > as the poetic ones, for to me what is intersting is how > these are > interrelated, rather than separate-- > > which is one of the bases for my series re "The New > Extreme Experimental > Poetry and Arts"-- > > actually in a very good translation of a poem may exist > every bit as much > manipulation for a purpose as there does in what you think > of as one with > bad intentions and so done poorly-- > > precisely the survival of certain texts through time has > depended in ways > upon the directions they were shifted by translators who > wished to keep them > alive-- > or, in order to adjust them to seem to be the precursors of > a current > doctrine, whether of poetry or of the state or other > institutions-- > > this is why translations are always being done over again, > new ones > appearing to displace the old--in order to give a sense of > the works being > "part of and important for our times" as well as > for their own-- > > this is a matter of"poetry politics" often just > as much as it may be of > "national politics"-- > > so it is that a current poet may give one a version which > is far more in > tune with the current kinds of poetry considered the most > important or > best-- > > and this new version may not be much like a previous > "outdated" one-- > > and yet considered to be a very good one in part because it > does indeed, > make the translated poet much more "available" to > the modern reader -- > > i am not disagreeing with you or Benjamin, at all, but > simply saying that > what interests me personally is the proliferations of > possibilities of > appropriation and translation, which extend writing into > other realms of > endeavor, and create After effects quite unexpected by the > original source-- > > the danger of thinking that there are only certain models > of translation in > existence by which to examine translations and to create > them with--is that > there will become a creation of forms of > conventionalism-conformity---which > in a sense denies the immense variety of possibilities, and > in so doing, > actually makes it easier for other more sinister versions > to slip themselves > into the mix and not be noticed, or simply waved to the > side--as being of > little importance--or quality--when in fact they may be > carrying along > something of great significance, for the bad or good--yet > which bears being > aware of-- > > in a sense one might say that i am not driven by a > "rationale" so much as by > a sense never ceasing of amazement, of being astounded, by > the ways in which > words are used, their incredible paradoxes and paradoxical > After and "side > effects," the ways in which they can be used to sell > anything from Gods to > garbage bags, Presidents to pills--and as well make poetry > that stops the > blood cold-- > > in turn the sense of amazement has its companion, > skepticism--questioning, > awareness of quantum leaps and uncertainty--of camouflages > and the beings of > things wccih do not want to be as it were > recognized--translated or > appropriated--not because of "resistances"--but > something else, an outside-- > > "The hills know but do not tell"--as Emily > Dickinson puts it-- > and the Tao which can be named is not the Tao-- > > > in the word "After" in Spicer's title is also > another meaning, besides the > predatory one you write of-- which is that this is written > as it were "after > the affair is over" in order in a sense to comprehend > what Spicer is finding > are its "After effects"-- > > Spicer indicates this in the "Last letter" and > also in the final stanza of > "Radar" the postscript poem dedicated to marianne > moore which "ends" the > book and the letter, the final letter to Lorca. > > These words of a vanished forever ghost lover are, to me at > any rate, > heartbreakingly beautiful--almost too much to bear to > read-- > > Here is both the "After" the summer affair of > love--and also--the "After > effects"--as Spicer depicts them (with on the way, in > this last letter, also > a discussion of "Poe's mechanical chess > player."--Again, an After effect of > Poe as I have been discussing these-- > > From the letter's third paragraph: > > *"Yet it was there. ("The intimate communion > with the ghost of Garcia > Lorca" which now "is over.") The poems are > there, the memory not of a > vision but a kind of casual friendship with an undramatic > ghost who > occasionally looked through my eyes and whispered to me, > not really more > important than my other friends, but now achieving a level > of reality by > being missing. Today, alone by myself, it is like having > lost a pair of > eyes and a lover. > "What is real, I suppose will endure. > Poe's mechanical chess player > was not the less a miracle for having a man inside it, and > when the man > departed, the games it had played were no less beautiful. > The analogy is > false, of course, but it holds both a promise and a warning > for each of us. > "It is October now. Summer is over. Almost > every trace of the months > of that produced these poems has been obliterated. Only > explanations are > possible, only regrets. > "Saying goodbye to a ghost is more final than > saying goodbye to a > lover. Even the dead return, but a ghost, once loved, will > never reappear. > > Love, Jack > > And here is the final stanza of the postscript poem, > Radar" > (which, notice, is a palindrome-the same read backwards and > forwards--) > > "I crawled into bed with sorrow that night > Couldn't touch his fingers. See the splash > Of the water > The noisy movement of the cloud > The push of the humpbacked mountains > Deep at the sand's edge.' > * > > > These "After effects" are real for Spicer, as > what happened is becoming, now > that it is over, and seen in this "After" > existence--ever more real--even as > it as a ghost lover is gone forever--the missing of it > becomes a reality > almost too much to bear and yet, as Spicer says--"It > will endure." > > It is another aspect of Poe's "mournful and never > ending remembrance" of > the lost loved one, now dead-Just as "The Philosophy > of Composition" is an > After effect of the poem "The Raven," so this > final letter to Lorca is a > coming to terms with finding a "philosophy of > composition" in order to > understand why the now departed ghost lover is becoming > more real than it > had been while present, in part because it will never > reappear again, and > how it was that the poems were composed, came to be, > without at the time > realizing what was happening--not until they had the > opportunity to be as > they have become, the generators of a time's memory > which has turned into a > missing reality, never again to return. It is in the > After-event, > After-effect that the "philosophy of composition" > becomes a reality--and the > poetry which preceded becomes in turn "more real" > than previously the poet > had been aware of. > > > This distance--into which a dead ghost lover is forever > departed--never to > return-- > is a "real and final" distance, the full force of > an intimacy never to be > again-- > and so is the distance which has a life of its own-- > out side and away from the poet and the poem-- > and to be an outside also for the reader-- > > In a sense, this kind of distance is what i write of as > things which do not > want to be appropriated or translated, but to be what they > are, distance, > never to reappear--never to be possessed-- > > i n a sense, writing itself, and also a writer, may wish to > keep a privacy > even within the writing, which will never be found, not by > anyone, because > the ghost lover it is created with is gone for ever-- > or because there are things which ghosts and writers wish > to keep to > themselves, just as writing itself may have such things > which are never > found that are living with in it-- > as though in fact long gone--never to reappear-- > > and yet one day one finds--hidden in plain > sight/site/cite-- > which "neither speaks nor conceals but gives > signs" > as Heraclitus says of the One Whose Oracle is at Delphi-- > > Also, if one is adopting so completely the method of > Benjamin, in a sense > are you not creating what you see as an opposition to your > own work's claims > within it: > > "If so, as you > > state, the "philosophy" of the translator > turns the original into a text > > totally in the translator's image. That is an act > of exploitation, the > very > > reverse of what I am talking about." > > That is, if one is so embracing the philosophy of > translation of Benjamin, > is not one in effect running the risk of turning the > original "totally" not > into the translator's image, but in to the image of the > philosophy of > translation which is guiding the translator? > > is not one in a sense working then in the service of a > particular philosophy > of translation? > > This is one of the reasons why i essay to keep alive the > sense of the > incredibly teeming and endlessly imaginative and inventive > ways in which > translations and appropriations may be created and used, > whether for good or > bad, better or worse, in order that one has a sense that > there are always > going to be at least two sides to every coin, and once it > is being flipped > about-- > well--who knows how many different sides may suddenly show > up via the > actions of palming and shifting the coin as it is being > flipped-- > > What i hope to convey with readers or listeners if there > are any real or > imagainary ones about is that words and phrases poems and > prose lead lives > of their own as well as the ones which a writer may or not > have > intended--and any given reader have found or put there > along the way--and > that even when things seem to be one way, it is always > interesting if not > often quite useful to find other ways in which the words > may be > understood--for in them are living beings--with whom to > engage-- > or who wish to engage themselves with oneself-- > > The more ways these words are understood as alive-- > is not this then to proliferate the lives of what are > called writers and > readers-- > as realities with real effects and After effects-- > > one thinks of the resistances of texts--why not also of > those of living > beings-- > and of the outside-- > > in the sense in which a Russian artist says that > "Language is a fascism, not > becuase it censors, but because it forces one to > speak." > > a sense of words whose intentions are fugitive, not to be > trapped inside a > prison of languages which one is forced to speak-- > > to continue--on the move-- > as though one were indeed a hill set in movement-- > yet, seen as a hill-- > not expected nor forced to speak-- > > > > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:24:31 -0500 > > From: muratnn@GMAIL.COM > > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > David, > > > > At the bifurcation they part Y one sling, yet in my > heart one > > sling shot. > > > > The word "After" in Spicer's poem does > not only mean "in imitation of" or > > "in homage to." It also means "in > pursuit of; it has a predatory > > connotation. In fact, Lorca's reactions from the > grave to Spicer's > > solicitations is one of annoyance." A true > translation is always an act of > > violence -loving or otherwise, that is the issue- > against the autonomy of > > the original. It literally must tear it up -fragment > it- to open it up to > a > > future life, the life of the text. This fragmentation > does have the > elements > > of collage. Are you familiar with Eliot > Weinberger's essay, "Notes On > > Translation" [?] of about fifteen years ago about > which Kent Johnson wrote > > an article which appears in the last issue of > ALTA's *The Translation > Review > > *? > > > > In your comments, you focus on what a text loses in > translation, through > > misreading (intentional or not) what gets silenced . > My feeling is you are > > particularly thinking of the Guantanamo translations. > One should also > think > > of what it gains: what starts as a > "complete," closed text opens and > becomes > > a potential one, which is its life through time. > > > > A bad translator sees, detects no resistance in the > original. If so, as > you > > state, the "philosophy" of the translator > turns the original into a text > > totally in the translator's image. That is an act > of exploitation, the > very > > reverse of what I am talking about. An original resits > to be translated. > > That's why Benjamin says what gives a text > translability is distance. The > > translator translates, integrates that distance. That > is why a translation > > has a tangential relationship to the second language, > the distance, > > expressed as style, existing as an ideal, a template > of potentiality for > it. > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 5:24 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat > wrote: > > > David, > > > > At the bifurcation they part Y one sling, yet > in my heart one > > sling shot. > > > > The word "After" in Spicer's poem does > not only mean "in imitation of" or > > "in homage to." It also means "in > pursuit of; it has a predatory > > connotation. In fact, Lorca's reactions from the > grave to Spicer's > > solicitations is one of annoyance." A true > translation is always an act of > > violence -loving or otherwise, that is the issue- > against the autonomy of > > the original. It literally must tear it up -fragment > it- to open it up to a > > future life, the life of the text. This fragmentation > does have the > > elements > > of collage. Are you familiar with Eliot > Weinberger's essay, "Notes On > > Translation" [?] of about fifteen years ago about > which Kent Johnson wrote > > an article which appears in the last issue of > ALTA's *The Translation > > Review > > *? > > > > In your comments, you focus on what a text loses in > translation, through > > misreading (intentional or not) what gets silenced . > My feeling is you are > > particularly thinking of the Guantanamo translations. > One should also think > > of what it gains: what starts as a > "complete," closed text opens and > > becomes > > a potential one, which is its life through time. > > > > A bad translator sees, detects no resistance in the > original. If so, as you > > state, the "philosophy" of the translator > turns the original into a text > > totally in the translator's image. That is an act > of exploitation, the very > > reverse of what I am talking about. An original resits > to be translated. > > That's why Benjamin says what gives a text > translability is distance. The > > translator translates, integrates that distance. That > is why a translation > > has a tangential relationship to the second language, > the distance, > > expressed as style, existing as an ideal, a template > of potentiality for > > it. > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all > posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 21:51:25 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Hallelujah! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Congratulations to the USAmericans on the list. What a proud and beautiful moment for you as a people. The faces of the people listening to Barack Obama's acceptance speech in Chicago were filled with wonder, happiness, hope, and pride. That is the USAmerica the rest of the world loves to see. May he be as good a president as his acceptance speech. Damn that was good. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 23:20:18 -0800 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Comments: cc: UK POETRY , "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's victory feels lik= e we - as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have (finally) been pulled= out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for 8 long, paralyt= ic years. I am in San Francisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but there is m= usic and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy happy!=A0=20 I know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now feels = good, good & real good.=20 Whew!=20 Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 09:27:12 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes true - this is the USAmerica all want to see. A new country where the word "new" upholds a value rare to be found elsewhere. But I also hope your congrats extend to people like me who signed up for, worked, supported the Obama campaign in every possible way during the last several months knowing fully well that I can't even cast my vote as I still remain a citizen of India. Aryanil -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Jim Andrews Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 12:51 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Hallelujah! Congratulations to the USAmericans on the list. What a proud and beautiful moment for you as a people. The faces of the people listening to Barack Obama's acceptance speech in Chicago were filled with wonder, happiness, hope, and pride. That is the USAmerica the rest of the world loves to see. May he be as good a president as his acceptance speech. Damn that was good. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 16:29:46 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Call for submissions: Poetic Responses to the 2008 American Elections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline * * *While the He/art Pants:* *Poetic Responses to the 2008 American Elections* * * *Call for Submissions* *Artistic representations, responses, and interrogations of electoral event= s are very important expressions of the endless conversation between art and historical experience. The 2008 American elections stimulated a lot of artistic responses and there were, in the campaign discourses, some subtle invocations of the postures of presidential aspirants to literature and cultural productions generally. What, as a poet (defined broadly), is the meaning of this whole experience of the 2008 elections? Send us your previously unpublished works (poems, paintings, manipulated photographs, etc) about the 2008 US elections for inclusion in an online anthology:While the He/Art Pants (a title derived from Walt Whitman's poem reproduced below), to soon appear on the Poet's Corner, Fiera Lingue. Images should be on Jpeg format. As this promises to be a very interesting project, we request that you send up to five of the most uncompromising and stylistically surprising of your works and a short bio. Other works that do not necessarily focus on the 2008 US elections but are relevant to the dialogue between art and democratic politics will be considered. * *Submissions are to be made electronically to: Obododimma Oha (Guest Editor= ) obodooha@gmail.com , udude@full-moon.com * * * *OR * * * *Anny Ballardini (Editor, The Poet's Corner)* *anny.ballardini@gmail.com* *Link to the main index of the site:* *http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent* * * *------------------------------- * * * *Election Day, November 1884* *from Leaves of Grass by Walt Whitman (1892)* If I should need to name, O Western World, your powerfulest scene and show, 'Twould not be you, Niagara=97nor you, ye limitless prairies=97nor your hug= e rifts of canyons, Colorado, Nor you, Yosemite=97nor Yellowstone, with all its spasmic geyserloops ascending to the skies, appearing and disappearing, Nor Oregon's white cones=97nor Huron's belt of mighty lakes=97nor Mississip= pi's stream: =97This seething hemisphere's humanity, as now, I'd name=97the still small = voice vibrating=97America's choosing day, (The heart of it not in the chosen=97the act itself the main, the quadrenni= al choosing,) The stretch of North and South arous'd-sea-board and inland-Texas to Maine=97the Prairie States=97Vermont, Virginia, California, The final ballot-shower from East to West=97the paradox and conflict, The countless snow-flakes falling=97(a swordless conflict, Yet more than all Rome's wars of old, or modern Napoleon's:) the peaceful choice of all, Or good or ill humanity=97welcoming the darker odds, the dross: =97Foams and ferments the wine? it serves to purify=97while the heart pants= , life glows: These stormy gusts and winds waft precious ships, Swell'd Washington's, Jefferson's, Lincoln's sails. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 09:32:55 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Comments: To: steph484@pacbell.net In-Reply-To: <438270.67566.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Stephen, The same feeling is here in Harlem: Happiness, the "brotherhood of man", the dancing in the streets, like nothing could ruin this night...now this morning. Year 1. -Ryan On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 2:20 AM, Stephen Vincent wrote: > I don't know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's victory feels > like we - as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have (finally) been > pulled out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for 8 long, > paralytic years. > I am in San Francisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but there is > music and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy happy! > I know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now feels > good, good & real good. > > Whew! > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 10:07:59 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline As an American, I thank you Jim, I have waited decades to feel like this again... "the fourth, the fifth the minor fall and the major lift ", indeed! - Peter On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 12:51 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > Congratulations to the USAmericans on the list. What a proud and beautiful > moment for you as a people. The faces of the people listening to Barack > Obama's acceptance speech in Chicago were filled with wonder, happiness, > hope, and pride. That is the USAmerica the rest of the world loves to see. > May he be as good a president as his acceptance speech. Damn that was good. > > ja > http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 10:58:06 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: your mail Comments: To: Stephen Vincent In-Reply-To: <438270.67566.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1032085454-1225900686=:16940" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1032085454-1225900686=:16940 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On the other hand, it looks like prop 8 is passing, taking us back to the= =20 middle ages... - Alan On Tue, 4 Nov 2008, Stephen Vincent wrote: > I don't know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's victory feels l= ike we - as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have (finally) been pull= ed out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for 8 long, paral= ytic years. > I am in San Francisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but there is= music and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy happy!=A0 > I know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now feel= s good, good & real good. > > Whew! > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html --0-1032085454-1225900686=:16940-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 12:02:35 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: bo Comments: To: steph484@pacbell.net In-Reply-To: <438270.67566.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Well, as I said a few months ago, finally, the differences wont be that high. We will still have a US president. I dont think he will stop the anti-Cuban blockade. I dont think he will get the bombers and shooters out of Afghanistan and Iraq. I think that before his four years are up he will bomb or invade at least one small country. I dont expect universal health care. The wall along the Mexican border will not come down. The CIA will still operate Colombia. etc It does feel a little nice, though. Geo Bowering No additives. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 12:05:03 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Last night in Brooklyn, it was definitely like Martha and the Vandellas san= g: "Dancing in the Street".=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AF= rom: Stephen Vincent =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.= EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, 5 November, 2008 2:20:18 AM=0ASubject: =0A=0AI don't= know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's victory feels like we - = as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have (finally) been pulled out of= an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for 8 long, paralytic year= s.=0AI am in San Francisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but there= is music and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy happy! = =0AI know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now fee= ls good, good & real good. =0A=0AWhew! =0A=0AStephen V=0Ahttp://stephenvinc= ent.net/blog/=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is mode= rated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http:= //epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:18:12 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: Tom Raworth Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, Theory and Writing , Jeff Hansen , tom.w.lewis@thomson.com, wexlermann , Erik Belgum , Mark Nowak , Eric Lorberer , Kelly Everding , Sarah Fox , john colburn , Masha L Zavialova , Chris Fischbach , beato@att.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The British poet Tom Raworth November 10, 2008 2:30 PM 207A LIND HALL 207 Church St. SE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA Minneapolis ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 16:20:39 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Larry O. Dean" Organization: Poetry Center of Chicago Comments: To: steph484@pacbell.net In-Reply-To: <438270.67566.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Stephen, I'm In Chicago, and while I didn't make it out to Grant Park last night, today there is a real feeling of uplift in the air. There's still a lot of rubble to dig out of, but it now feels as if we might just make it. Larry http://larryodean.blogspot.com http://larryodean.com On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 23:20:18 -0800, Stephen Vincent wrote: > I don't know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's victory feels > like we - as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have (finally) been > pulled out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for 8 long, > paralytic years. > I am in San Francisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but there is > music and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy happy! > I know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now feels > good, good & real good. > > Whew! > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 18:17:54 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: get your happy on - 2 books for 20 bucks Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Special offer From BlazeVOX [books] We are doing it again right in time for the holidays! Buy a stack of book t= o fill your families stockings, now that hope is back in the world! Now is th= e time to get to know BlazeVOX [books] and this is the deal of the century! This is a HUGE saving from our normal cover price to say thank you!!! Our goal is the place as many of our fine books in your hands. We worked very hard this year to avoid a real crisis and now we are at zero; and to make i= t ready for the new year we need to get some cash in hand to buy a new block of ISBN=B9s. So give us a try and we are sure you=B9ll be thrilled! Buy a Big Block of BlazeVOX [books] 2 titles =8B $20 [a $40 value] 5 titles =8B $50 [a $100 value] 10 titles =8B $100 [a $200 value] 20 titles =8B $200 [a $400 value] http://www.blazevox.org/order.htm Check off which books you wish to have sent to you for your kind donation! 10 books for a $100 donation, or any other set of books based on a $10 per book. And yes this includes shipping! So, for an $80 dollar donation you will receive 8 books, or a donation of $200 we will send you twenty books! Make your donation with the PayPal button on the online ordering page at: (http://www.blazevox.org/order.htm ) Samples of each title are available for download on our catalog page, http://www.blazevox.org/catalog.htm , along with links to more information on each author! So get your happy on and read our weird little books! Please use the new PDF form Click here : http://www.blazevox.org/BlazeVOX%20order%20form.pdf BlazeVOX Books has published over 100 volumes, mostly poetry, and will publish approximately 15-20 more during 2009 and 2010. Our latest publications are by Anne Waldman, Ted Greenwald, Skip Fox and Megan Volpert and Amy King. For a full list please visit our online catalog http://www.blazevox.org/catalog.htm E-books are also available for free download, including 75 free titles by Raymond Federman, Dale Smith, and Jil= l Darling.=20 Please direct any questions to me at editor@blazevox.org Thank you for all of your fine support! And this is meant for US orders, international orders= , please email me and we=B9ll work it out! Thank you, Geoffrey Gatza Publisher, BlazeVOX [books] =20 =20 =20 =20 BlazeVOX [books] to choose from !!!! =20 =20 Author Title =20 Kazim Ali Quinn's Passage William Allegrezza Ladders In July Joe Amato Finger ExOrcised mIEKAL aND BYSTANDER: An Irreality Charles Baldwin I DID THE WEIRD MOTOR DRIVE Michael Basinski All My Eggs Are Broken Aaron Belz The Bird Hoverer Raymond L. Bianchi Circular Descent Daniel Borzutzky The Ecstasy of Capitulation Louis E. Bourgeois The Animal: Prose Poetics John Bradley War of Words Christophe Casamassima Joys: a catalogue of disappointments Joel Chace Cleaning The Mirror Patrick Chapman Shopping Mall on Mars Joseph Cooper Autobiography of a Stutterer Mark Ducharme The Sensory Cabinet Ryan Daley Armored Elevator Michel J=E9rome Dufr=E9noy Factory Manual Jeremy Downes The Lost Atlas of Desire kari edwards having been blue for charity Kane X. Faucher Jonkil Dies (A Mesophysical Eulogy) Lisa Forrest To The Eaves Skip Fox For To Vernon Frazer Holiday Idylling William Freind American Field Couches. Geoffrey Gatza Thanksgiving Poems Geoffrey Gatza Dreadful Quietude Geoffrey Gatza I wear a figleaf over my penis Noah Eli Gordon Inbox Ted Greenwald In Your Dreams Richard Henry Chant Richard Henry Sidewalk Portrait Patrick Herron American Godwar Complex Matt Hill Parataxis Kent Johnson Epigramititis Kent Johnson Poetic Architecture Mary Kasimor A Pure Bowl of Nothing Mary Kasimor silk string arias Michael Kelleher To Be Sung Michael Kelleher Human Scale Jukka-Pekka Kervinen [#1 - #46] Amy King Antidotes for an Alibi Amy King I'm The Man Who Loves You Rodney Koeneke Musee Mechanique Mark Lamoureux Astrometry Orgonon Pat Lawrence Journals From the Time of the Radar Dog Ruth Lepson & Walter Crump Morphology Michael Magee Mainstream Didi Menendez When I said Goodbye Daniel Nester The History of My World Tonight Richard Owens Delaware Memoranda Ted Pelton Bhang Lance Phillips Imposture Notebooks Wanda Phipps Field of Wanting Nate Pritts Sensational Spectacular Meghan Punschke Stratification Chris Pusateri Anon Peter Ramos Please Do Not Feed the Ghost Francis Raven Taste: Gastronomic poems G Emil Reutter Stirring Within Poems and Tales from Mount Carme= l Forrest Roth Line And Pause Javier Rube Reading Gaol Michael Ruby WINDOW ON THE CITY Jared Schickling Aurora Jared Schickling Submissions Kyle Schlesinger Hello Helicopter Davis Schneiderman DIS Doris Shapiro 3, Stories by Doris Shapiro Peter Jay Shippy Alphaville Kenji Siratori Nonexistence Justin Sirois Secondary Sound Alan Sondheim Vel Jordan Stempleman String Parade Chad Sweeney An Archetecture Eileen Tabios THE CHATELAINE'S KEYS Steven Timm Disparity Jennifer J. Thompson Naming God Mark Tursi The Impossible Picnic Megan A. Volpert Face Blindness Mark Wallace Walking Dreams Evan Willner homemade traps for new world Brians =20 =20 =20 --=20 Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza Editor & Publisher ------------------------------------- BlazeVOX [ books ] Publisher of weird little books -------------------------------------- editor@blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org http://www.geoffreygatza.com/ http://www.blazevox.org/blog Not So Fast Robespierre by Geoffrey Gatza http://www.lulu.com/content/1767006 NOW Available from Menendez Publishing =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:23:07 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: prop 8 and obama In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE aye. and i hate to be a party pooper, but i gotta wait and see what he does (obama). i cannot bring myself to trust politicians, however beautiful and whatever color. did you hear nader this morning on democ. now? i voted, i even went to the celebration and it felt great, but "show me," and i'm not even from missouri. the most amazing thing to me is that we've managed to elect a man who is not white, never mind that he grew up in other countries, and had radical mentors. and his family surely looks healthy and sweet. but no quarter for the palestinians, into afghanistan with us, etc. etc. sorry but... gabe Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Wed, 5 Nov 2008, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > > On the other hand, it looks like prop 8 is passing, taking us back to the > middle ages... > > - Alan > > > On Tue, 4 Nov 2008, Stephen Vincent wrote: > > > I don't know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's victory feels= like we - as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have (finally) been pu= lled out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for 8 long, par= alytic years. > > I am in San Francisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but there = is music and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy happy!=A0 > > I know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now fe= els good, good & real good. > > > > Whew! > > > > Stephen V > > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidel= ines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ > | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: > | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 > | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org > | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:23:43 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: bo In-Reply-To: <29C65476-C40D-4492-A3B3-3C95CD8E3F07@sfu.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII :-) aye. Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Wed, 5 Nov 2008, George Bowering wrote: > Well, as I said a few months ago, > finally, the differences wont be that high. > We will still have a US president. > I dont think he will stop the anti-Cuban blockade. > I dont think he will get the bombers and shooters out of Afghanistan > and Iraq. > I think that before his four years are up he will bomb or invade at > least one small country. > I dont expect universal health care. > The wall along the Mexican border will not come down. > The CIA will still operate Colombia. > etc > > It does feel a little nice, though. > > Geo Bowering > No additives. > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:43:38 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Clay Banes Subject: SPD Poetry Best-Sellers September/October 2008 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A new day. Back before we were what we are today, here's what sold: SMALL PRESS DISTRIBUTION POETRY BEST-SELLERS SEPTEMBER/OCTOBER 2008 here: = http://spdtoday.blogspot.com/2008/11/spd-poetry-bestsellers-septemberocto= ber.html or: = http://spdbooks.org/root/pages/bestsellers/poetry/poetry-bestsellers.asp Clay Banes Sales & Marketing Manager Small Press Distribution 1341 Seventh Street Berkeley, CA 94710 510-524-1668 x304 clay@spdbooks.org http://www.spdbooks.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 19:14:51 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Julia Bloch Subject: reading in Philadelphia tomorrow Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain the EMERGENCY Poetry Series at the Kelly Writers House presents a reading with EMILY ABENDROTH, LASKA JIMSEN, & JUSTIN AUDIA Thursday, 11/6, 6:30PM the Writers House | 3805 Locust Walk | Philadelphia free & open to the public | reception to follow ---------------------------------------------------- EMILY ABENDROTH is a writer and artist, alternately residing in the San F= rancisco Bay=20 Area and Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (where she co-curates the Moles Not M= olar Reading=20 Series with Audia). Recent work of hers can be found in Encyclopedia, Poc= ket Myths: The=20 Odyssey Edition, horse less review, and Cut & Paste. Her chapbook, "T= oward Eadward=20 Forward," will be published by horse less press this Fall and a chunky ex= cerpt from her=20 book-length work-in-progress "Muzzle Blast Dander" can be found in Editio= n 3 of the=20 Chain Links book series. LASKA JIMSEN is a film and video maker who currently lives in Philadelphi= a. She works=20 across nonfiction forms from video documentary to artisanal 16mm filmmaki= ng and=20 animation. The 16mm print of "Miss Rose Fletcher: A Natural History" has = screened at the=20 MadCat, Athens, and Iowa City Experimental film festivals as well as the = Moles Not=20 Molars reading series in Philadelphia and Structuring Strategies at CalAr= ts. Laska teaches=20 film and video production and studies at Temple University, St. Joseph's = University, and=20 University of the Arts. JUSTIN AUDIA lives in Philadelphia where he co-curates the Moles Not Mola= r series with=20 Emily Abendroth. His work has recently appeared in Pocket Myths: The Odys= sey Edition=20 and at sidebrow.net. _________________________________________________ Learn more! ---> http://emergency-reading.blogspot.com/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 20:12:17 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: prop 8 and obama In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well, certainly he's not a magician, and to think the president alone is responsible for reform is wrongheaded. It's the "American mentality" that needs to change. "Let's see" always follows the excitement....but without the excitement, there's no "let's see." On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > aye. and i hate to be a party pooper, but i gotta wait and see what he > does (obama). i cannot bring myself to trust politicians, however > beautiful and whatever color. did you hear nader this morning on democ. > now? i voted, i even went to the celebration and it felt great, but "show > me," and i'm not even from missouri. the most amazing thing to me is that > we've managed to elect a man who is not white, never mind that he grew up > in other countries, and had radical mentors. and his family surely looks > healthy and sweet. but no quarter for the palestinians, into afghanistan > with us, etc. etc. sorry but... gabe > > Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. > _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous > Cultures_ > http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=317 > _Dora_ > http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=378 > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 > > On Wed, 5 Nov 2008, Alan Sondheim wrote: > >> >> >> On the other hand, it looks like prop 8 is passing, taking us back to the >> middle ages... >> >> - Alan >> >> >> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008, Stephen Vincent wrote: >> >> > I don't know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's victory feels like we - as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have (finally) been pulled out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for 8 long, paralytic years. >> > I am in San Francisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but there is music and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy happy! >> > I know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now feels good, good & real good. >> > >> > Whew! >> > >> > Stephen V >> > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> > >> > ================================== >> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > >> > >> >> >> >> | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ >> | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: >> | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 >> | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org >> | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 21:40:57 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Before we wet ourselves with excitement, let's=20 remember that any democrat who didn't get caught=20 sleeping with household pets would have won this=20 year, and that also in a lot of places black=20 statewide office holders are hardly novel. Obama=20 ran a great campaign, and he was a casting-office=20 perfect candidate, and of course it didn't hurt=20 getting almost 100% of an enlarged black vote,=20 but the states that flipped were very close the=20 last two times and moving steadily towards the=20 democrats, mostly due to demographic changes.=20 Low-hanging fruit. On the other hand, in the deep=20 south almost 80% of white folks voted against=20 Obama. And three states voted against gay=20 marriage and two against affirmative action. I voted for the man, given what my choices were,=20 but for the life of me I can't figure out why he=20 ran (remember who else was in the democratic=20 field) except "yes I can." He's yet to express=20 any opinion or propose anything that would risk=20 hurting him with his constituents, which is=20 pretty amazing even for so short a time in=20 politics. Here are a few things he could do that=20 would make me wild with enthusiasm--hell, any one=20 of them would make a convert of me--but might=20 cost him votes and affection the next time around. 1.Obama has supported subsidies for corn ethanol=20 and for farming in general, presumably because it=20 pleased his Illinois constituents (it probably=20 didn't hurt him any in Iowa). These have each=20 been disastrous for Latin America (the subsidies=20 made American corn cheaper than the stuff grown=20 at home, and the ethanol boom raised worldwide=20 prices life-threateningly high), which is why so=20 many of them have been risking their lives to=20 cross the border. Then there's the environmental=20 damage. Obama could propose ending the subsidies.=20 As a bonus, it would put him in a position to suggest that the EU do the= same. 2. Mexico is descending into chaos as its=20 government acts as our surrogate in fighting the=20 drug lords. Colombia already went through this,=20 for how many years? A change in US drug laws=20 would end the problem in minutes--no prohibition,=20 no value, and a fix costs pennies. A lot of=20 states have moved (slowly) towards reduced=20 penalties, even decriminalization of possession=20 of some drugs. Even so, proposing=20 decriminalization would cost votes. Save a lot of money and lives, tho. 3. Need I mention the Cuban embargo? Obama will=20 probably return travel rules to their Clinton-era=20 status, but he's been pretty clear that Cuba has=20 to democratize to get the rest. He'd lose a lot of votes in Florida. 4. Israel's economy is dependent on 12 billion a=20 year in loan guarantees, without which no one=20 would make the short-term loans that all=20 economies need. That's the muscle that would get=20 them to the bargaining table toot sweet. Of=20 course it would cost most of the Jewish vote, which is why no one's done it. I could probably come up with a few more. I'm waiting to be convinced. Mark At 05:20 PM 11/5/2008, you wrote: >Hi Stephen, > >I'm In Chicago, and while I didn't make it out to Grant Park last night, >today there is a real feeling of uplift in the air. There's still a lot of >rubble to dig out of, but it now feels as if we might just make it. > >Larry > >http://larryodean.blogspot.com >http://larryodean.com > >On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 23:20:18 -0800, Stephen Vincent >wrote: > > I don't know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's victory feels > > like we - as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have (finally) been > > pulled out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for 8= long, > > paralytic years. > > I am in San Francisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but there= is > > music and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy happy!=C2 > > I know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now >feels > > good, good & real good. > > > > Whew! > > > > Stephen V > > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept=20 >all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 22:12:14 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: new blog post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Over at my dental blog... http://teethmedolores.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 22:20:25 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081105200731.06937538@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Not so. In Harlem, last night was a dream. These constituents here were already witnessing that dream. That's excitement! On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Before we wet ourselves with excitement, let's remember that any democrat > who didn't get caught sleeping with household pets would have won this ye= ar, > and that also in a lot of places black statewide office holders are hardl= y > novel. Obama ran a great campaign, and he was a casting-office perfect > candidate, and of course it didn't hurt getting almost 100% of an enlarge= d > black vote, but the states that flipped were very close the last two time= s > and moving steadily towards the democrats, mostly due to demographic > changes. Low-hanging fruit. On the other hand, in the deep south almost 8= 0% > of white folks voted against Obama. And three states voted against gay > marriage and two against affirmative action. > > I voted for the man, given what my choices were, but for the life of me I > can't figure out why he ran (remember who else was in the democratic fiel= d) > except "yes I can." He's yet to express any opinion or propose anything t= hat > would risk hurting him with his constituents, which is pretty amazing eve= n > for so short a time in politics. Here are a few things he could do that > would make me wild with enthusiasm--hell, any one of them would make a > convert of me--but might cost him votes and affection the next time aroun= d. > > 1.Obama has supported subsidies for corn ethanol and for farming in > general, presumably because it pleased his Illinois constituents (it > probably didn't hurt him any in Iowa). These have each been disastrous fo= r > Latin America (the subsidies made American corn cheaper than the stuff gr= own > at home, and the ethanol boom raised worldwide prices life-threateningly > high), which is why so many of them have been risking their lives to cros= s > the border. Then there's the environmental damage. Obama could propose > ending the subsidies. As a bonus, it would put him in a position to sugge= st > that the EU do the same. > > 2. Mexico is descending into chaos as its government acts as our surrogat= e > in fighting the drug lords. Colombia already went through this, for how m= any > years? A change in US drug laws would end the problem in minutes--no > prohibition, no value, and a fix costs pennies. A lot of states have move= d > (slowly) towards reduced penalties, even decriminalization of possession = of > some drugs. Even so, proposing decriminalization would cost votes. Save a > lot of money and lives, tho. > > 3. Need I mention the Cuban embargo? Obama will probably return travel > rules to their Clinton-era status, but he's been pretty clear that Cuba h= as > to democratize to get the rest. He'd lose a lot of votes in Florida. > > 4. Israel's economy is dependent on 12 billion a year in loan guarantees, > without which no one would make the short-term loans that all economies > need. That's the muscle that would get them to the bargaining table toot > sweet. Of course it would cost most of the Jewish vote, which is why no > one's done it. > > I could probably come up with a few more. I'm waiting to be convinced. > > Mark > > At 05:20 PM 11/5/2008, you wrote: > >> Hi Stephen, >> >> I'm In Chicago, and while I didn't make it out to Grant Park last night, >> today there is a real feeling of uplift in the air. There's still a lot = of >> rubble to dig out of, but it now feels as if we might just make it. >> >> Larry >> >> http://larryodean.blogspot.com >> http://larryodean.com >> >> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 23:20:18 -0800, Stephen Vincent >> wrote: >> > I don't know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's victory feel= s >> > like we - as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have (finally) bee= n >> > pulled out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for 8 >> long, >> > paralytic years. >> > I am in San Francisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but there >> is >> > music and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy happy!= =C2 >> > I know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now >> feels >> > good, good & real good. >> > >> > Whew! >> > >> > Stephen V >> > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 22:23:20 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: cris cheek In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081105200731.06937538@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI Mark i utterly agree . . . end the war on drugs pull down the wall going up between Mexico and USA for another thing just for a start cris On Nov 5, 2008, at 9:40 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Before we wet ourselves with excitement, let's > remember that any democrat who didn't get caught > sleeping with household pets would have won this > year, and that also in a lot of places black > statewide office holders are hardly novel. Obama > ran a great campaign, and he was a casting-office > perfect candidate, and of course it didn't hurt > getting almost 100% of an enlarged black vote, > but the states that flipped were very close the > last two times and moving steadily towards the > democrats, mostly due to demographic changes. > Low-hanging fruit. On the other hand, in the deep > south almost 80% of white folks voted against > Obama. And three states voted against gay > marriage and two against affirmative action. > > I voted for the man, given what my choices were, > but for the life of me I can't figure out why he > ran (remember who else was in the democratic > field) except "yes I can." He's yet to express > any opinion or propose anything that would risk > hurting him with his constituents, which is > pretty amazing even for so short a time in > politics. Here are a few things he could do that > would make me wild with enthusiasm--hell, any one > of them would make a convert of me--but might > cost him votes and affection the next time around. > > 1.Obama has supported subsidies for corn ethanol > and for farming in general, presumably because it > pleased his Illinois constituents (it probably > didn't hurt him any in Iowa). These have each > been disastrous for Latin America (the subsidies > made American corn cheaper than the stuff grown > at home, and the ethanol boom raised worldwide > prices life-threateningly high), which is why so > many of them have been risking their lives to > cross the border. Then there's the environmental > damage. Obama could propose ending the subsidies. > As a bonus, it would put him in a position to suggest that the EU =20 > do the same. > > 2. Mexico is descending into chaos as its > government acts as our surrogate in fighting the > drug lords. Colombia already went through this, > for how many years? A change in US drug laws > would end the problem in minutes--no prohibition, > no value, and a fix costs pennies. A lot of > states have moved (slowly) towards reduced > penalties, even decriminalization of possession > of some drugs. Even so, proposing > decriminalization would cost votes. Save a lot of money and lives, =20 > tho. > > 3. Need I mention the Cuban embargo? Obama will > probably return travel rules to their Clinton-era > status, but he's been pretty clear that Cuba has > to democratize to get the rest. He'd lose a lot of votes in Florida. > > 4. Israel's economy is dependent on 12 billion a > year in loan guarantees, without which no one > would make the short-term loans that all > economies need. That's the muscle that would get > them to the bargaining table toot sweet. Of > course it would cost most of the Jewish vote, which is why no one's =20= > done it. > > I could probably come up with a few more. I'm waiting to be convinced. > > Mark > > At 05:20 PM 11/5/2008, you wrote: >> Hi Stephen, >> >> I'm In Chicago, and while I didn't make it out to Grant Park last =20 >> night, >> today there is a real feeling of uplift in the air. There's still =20 >> a lot of >> rubble to dig out of, but it now feels as if we might just make it. >> >> Larry >> >> http://larryodean.blogspot.com >> http://larryodean.com >> >> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 23:20:18 -0800, Stephen Vincent =20 >> >> wrote: >>> I don't know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's victory =20= >>> feels >>> like we - as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have =20 >>> (finally) been >>> pulled out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for =20= >>> 8 long, >>> paralytic years. >>> I am in San Francisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but =20 >>> there is >>> music and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy =20 >>> happy!=C2 >>> I know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now >> feels >>> good, good & real good. >>> >>> Whew! >>> >>> Stephen V >>> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept >> all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 04:52:45 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sarah Sarai Subject: response to mark weiss, from a poet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain Well, good heavens, send Obama your wish list. And cc Santa. But give me a break. ANY Democrat who didn't sleep with what was it, sma= ll animals,=20 farm animals would win? NO Democrat (and don't they all bed with the hel= p and the=20 livestock and domesticated furry creatures and reptiles not to mention wi= nged things and=20 catch of the sea, the whole surf 'n turf scene) has managed to not shoot = him/herself in=20 the foot for years. For once a Republican gallantly stepped in to do the= job (bless you,=20 McCain), in this case by loading his pistol with Alaska's heartbreak and = sorrow, which for=20 once was too much for Americans to handle - such a reflection of where we= 're headed,=20 Ms. Palin is.=20=20 The percentage of black voters wasn't much bigger than in previous years,= by the way.=20=20 He IS just another politician and we're likely to disagree with him soone= r or later and=20 probably sooner rather than later. The markets are going to continue to = crumble, the=20 stock exchange is withering as we speak. The big money interests that he= lped fund his=20 campaign will demand their due. Water is still water; wine, wine; in a d= ay or two, Spike=20 Lee STILL won't be able to get a cab.=20=20 The poor will STILL be with us, with their rapacious demands for food and= shelter.=20=20 It's the job of the poet to love the world. Maybe loving is the same as = grieving and=20 maybe that's what you're doing; I grant I'm being a little hard, here, Ma= rk (but you really=20 annoyed me). For me, there IS a shift in consciousness, making our job m= omentarily=20 easy - for a moment world opinion has us as a generous peoples blind to r= ace and=20 religion, for crissakes - but it, loving the world AS IF it could be chan= ged, still needs to be=20 done because consciousness wants to snuggle up with its old self and will= , it will, unless=20 prodded by the fools the poets are.=20=20 We need to gain weight so our sweaters can never fit like they used to. Sarah Sarai 4:30 a.m., 11/6 http://www.myspace.com/sarahsarai http://www.mississippireview.com/2008/Vol14No4-Oct08/1404-100108-Sarai.ht= ml http://www.ghotimag.com/Sarai.htm =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 00:13:47 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Fwd: Google Alert - "Alan Sondheim" (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed nice comment by Bruce Sterling - Alan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Google Alerts Date: Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:18 PM Subject: Google Alert - "Alan Sondheim" To: sondheim@panix.com Google News Alert for: *"Alan Sondheim"* All the *Alan Sondheim* you never knew you wanted to read Wired News - USA By Bruce Sterling November 05, 2008 | 3:28:19 AM (((I think every literateur that works on ink-on-paper should confront the work of *Alan Sondheim* and then *...* See all stories on this topic ------------------------------ This once a day Google Alert is brought to you by Google. Removethis alert. Create another alert. Manage your alerts. -- ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 04:02:57 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tracey Gagne Subject: Re: prop 8 and obama In-Reply-To: <9778b8630811051712g7638bd8am2d6ce6dfdb49fd0d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think for the first time in a long time, there's a feeling of HOPE, and that's not to be taken lightly. It was amazing to see the 125,000 people of mixed races and ethnicities standing with each other and crying together at his acceptance speech. It was also inspiring to hear the excited talk of young black men on public transportation yesterday morning as they recounted what they'd seen on tv the previous night--these are people who didn't before imagine that they had a voice. There were 400,000 new voters in the state of Georgia this year and an awful lot of them voted early, standing in line for up to nine hours. I appreciate that Obama appears to understand the difficult and daunting task(s) ahead for him. I just hope that people can remember that it took the American people together to start the process of change, and it will take the American people together to continue it.... On 11/5/08, Ryan Daley wrote: > > Well, certainly he's not a magician, and to think the president alone > is responsible for reform is wrongheaded. It's the "American > mentality" that needs to change. > > "Let's see" always follows the excitement....but without the > excitement, there's no "let's see." > > On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Gabrielle Welford > wrote: > > aye. and i hate to be a party pooper, but i gotta wait and see what he > > does (obama). i cannot bring myself to trust politicians, however > > beautiful and whatever color. did you hear nader this morning on democ. > > now? i voted, i even went to the celebration and it felt great, but > "show > > me," and i'm not even from missouri. the most amazing thing to me is > that > > we've managed to elect a man who is not white, never mind that he grew up > > in other countries, and had radical mentors. and his family surely looks > > healthy and sweet. but no quarter for the palestinians, into afghanistan > > with us, etc. etc. sorry but... gabe > > > > Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. > > _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous > > Cultures_ > > http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=317 > > _Dora_ > > http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=378 > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 > > > > On Wed, 5 Nov 2008, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> On the other hand, it looks like prop 8 is passing, taking us back to > the > >> middle ages... > >> > >> - Alan > >> > >> > >> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008, Stephen Vincent wrote: > >> > >> > I don't know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's victory > feels like we - as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have (finally) > been pulled out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for 8 > long, paralytic years. > >> > I am in San Francisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but there > is music and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy happy! > >> > I know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now > feels good, good & real good. > >> > > >> > Whew! > >> > > >> > Stephen V > >> > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > >> > > >> > ================================== > >> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ > >> | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: > >> | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 > >> | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org > >> | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 > >> > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Tracey M. Gagne sundrypleasures.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 08:02:43 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline David, This is a wonderful poem. I assume it is yours, which is an interesting word within the framework ownership/appropriation we have been discussing. To me it has a fascinating fusion of German Romanticism and Emily Dickinson. "Profane illumination" indeed. Though Benjamin's thought is godless, it is religious, particularly in the Baudelaire/translation and "The art of the Storyteller" essays and in *The Arcades Projec*t. The illuminations, which can also be seen as visual annotations to texts, pour out from cracks and crevices, between quotations, the seemingly wrong headed, meandering questions he asks. He is able to see industrial industrial constructs, their flatsom and jetsom, as dreams. I wonder my phrase "godless Sufism" has a connection to that. Ciao, Murat On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 4:34 PM, David Chirot wrote: > Dear Murat: > > Oh my goodness, no-- > I am not disagreeing with you at all, Murat. > > The section you quote here is just me rattling off more of variations of > ways appropriation can be and has been applied through time. > Forgive the sudden outburst of this "flash flood" of words words and more > words! > > I think you know one of the great many reasons I admire and respect your > work so much--not only the translations--but also the poetry and the book > on > photography and your essays-- > is that you have precisely the empirical approach to your thoughts and > words > that you note--so that at one point in time, the Benjamin seems > incomprehensible, fantastic, yet through working continually one breaks > through into understanding--"a profane illumination" occurs, and one does > indeed recognize the actions and presences of the "chips of messianic Time" > as they are Illuminated-- > > Many of Benjamin's works have had a profound effect on myself also. > > My ragged ideas and "works" have a similar approach with yours as they > come > through time, and along the way, one jettisons a good number--and finds > more > to think on, and in turn these link or not via associations with previous > ones, in turn creating new series of associations--only through practice > and > walking around all over and in all sorts of places and hauling them about > and exposing them to the elements --does one arrive at some further depths > as these seep in through the various crackings and crevices, crevasses and > collapses of decompostions, synchronicties, corrosions-- > a prolonged series of of seismic shiftings which continually keep things on > the move-- > and here and there the quantum leap of the unexpected, the uncanny, a > sudden > running directly in to a wall--of graffiti of the eslehweres that tumble > out > of the skies > --as ever, in friendship and respect-- > david > > > > through the chink in the fence-- > > a strip of sky & earthen wall-- > > in what faraway land > > among hostile forests-- > > to sit in someone else's room > among books not mine > & write about the sky > > > to pen ghosts' writings, > scrawl notations > > of phantom songs-- > > the untold, the unwritten > > scenes-- > hidden,-- > > ever-- in plain sight > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 9:15 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat > wrote: > > > "actually in a very good translation of a poem may exist every bit as > much > > manipulation for a purpose as there does in what you think of as one with > > bad intentions and so done poorly-- > > > > precisely the survival of certain texts through time has depended in ways > > upon the directions they were shifted by translators who wished to keep > > them > > alive-- > > or, in order to adjust them to seem to be the precursors of a current > > doctrine, whether of poetry or of the state or other institutions--" > > > > > > David, > > > > I am not sure where we are disagreeing. The "misreading" I am talking > about > > does bend the original into "a vision of the original." The translator > > translates that vision which may create consequences on both sides of the > > occasion. That is, for example, what Ezra Pound's "The Seafarer" does. It > > (re-)introduces a music of consonants into English poetry, in opposition > to > > Victorian sonorities. > > > > I think you are reacting to the categorical tone of some of my arguments. > > The truth is I do not believe in false modesty, and I do believe there > are > > good and bad translations. I am trying to explain what I believe > transforms > > translation into a poetic genre -like the lyric or epic or dramatic- > rather > > than a method of reproduction. You also suggest, I think, that my view of > > translation is abstract, only an application of Benjamin's specific ideas > > of > > translation into a method. The reality is that my ideas of translation > are > > derived completely empirically, out of my thirty years of practice. Only > > when my ideas of translation developed did I begin to see its > > correspondence > > with the ideas expressed in "The Task of the Translator." In effect, when > I > > first read that essay, I completely misunderstood it, thinking his > > references to "intentio" of a language and to "ideal language" more or > less > > gibberish. Only during the writing of the Turkish anthology, developing > my > > concept of "eda," did I become aware of the profundity of those aspects > of > > his essay. In other words, as you say about "The Raven" and "The > Philosophy > > of Composition," Benjamin's essay become for me a means of framing my > idea > > of eda, its foreignness, within a half comprehensible Western framework. > > Actually, to create "eda," I had to "misread" both Turkish poetry and > > Walter > > Benjamin "to my own purposes." That does not mean that "eda," which > > embodies > > for me the image of translation, does not say something truthful about > both > > Turkish poetry and Walter Benjamin. > > > > Affectionately, > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 5:50 PM, David Chirot > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Murat And Barry: > > > > > > > > > Barry--many thanks for your having checked on the translations and in > > > comparison with others as you > > > call them, Straight translations"-- > > > > > > though perhaps Spicer may have made use of existing translations to > > create > > > his own versions of these translations-- > > > rather than having made the translations directly from the Spanish-- > > > (this method is used in many cases actually as a form of translation, > > > rather > > > than necessarily "After"--as one may have a translator who knos the > > > language > > > make the "straight translation" and the poet then make use of this to > > > create > > > heir own translation using the raw translated words-- > > > -- > > > (i only suggest these as possibilities-among many---) > > > > > > Murat--I think you misunderstand me-- > > > > > > what i am trying to present is not ONE version of what translation or > > > appropriation may be, nor to say that there exists one method only as > the > > > most common, nor two nor three-- > > > > > > quite the contrary--what interests me are the ceaseless proliferations > > > brought about by translations and appropriations--indeed their "After > > > effects" and further translations and appropriations through time-- > > > > > > i think perhaps that what you have found for yourself is a method and > > > authority in which your profoundly believe and make use of-- > > > > > > and judged by this manner, none other really has the same level of > > > existence > > > and authority--- > > > > > > so, in a sense, the single-mindedness of purpose becomes impatient with > > the > > > suggestions of other methods and examples however recognized, actual. > > > weird, vague, bad or indifferent as well as "authorized" that exist in > al > > > their teeming fecund chaotic rhizomatic voyagings-- > > > > > > (i'm not a descendant of French-Indian Voyageurs for nothing,after > > all!--) > > > > > > what interests me is that from one single word in any language may > become > > > such proliferations of meanings, events, personages, writers, singers, > > > painters, all the world in fact, soldiers, forgers, bombers, martyrs, > > > presidents and prostitutes--Bible thumpers, gangbangers, all of > > them--poets > > > and pall bearers, carnival clowns and congress persons-- > > > > > > ghosts, ghost writers, Posthumous ghosthumous writers--"After effects" > of > > > an > > > After writing of one's own writings such as Musil's early 1930's > > > collection of his "Posthumous works of a living author"-- > > > > > > so it is that i find what you do with translation very beautiful, and > at > > > the > > > same time i carry in mind many others ways of translating, and ways of > > > appropriating, whatever their motives and intentions--simply to bear in > > > mind > > > that there is no fixed limit on what may be sounded within a word's > > > depths-- > > > nor perhaps in the depths of the minds and hearts which make use of > > these- > > > > > > As i noted before, through a series of posts i am hoping to keep alive > > both > > > the positive and negative as well as the indifferent and careless or > > > accidental aspects of appropriations and translations-- > > > > > > and as well their spilling out across boundaries, so that a poetical > text > > > lands somewhere else entirely, part of a land dispute--or a conflict > over > > > the types of flowers which oonce appeared in a region--and who may have > > > been > > > the ones who planted them--and many other thousands of things besides-- > > > oepn the newspaper, and there one may find daily some example at work > of > > > this proliferation having effects and After effects in all manner of > ways > > > and means-- > > > > > > In one letter, a more negative aspect may seem to be at the fore, and > in > > > the > > > next a more positive-- > > > this is to indicate that sense of language of Burroughs' "no final > > glossary > > > may be made of words whose intentions are fugitive"-- > > > > > > actually I hadn't been thinking at all of the Guantanamo Poems about > > which > > > i > > > have on line some essays--but rather the daily uses of translation as > > well > > > as the poetic ones, for to me what is intersting is how these are > > > interrelated, rather than separate-- > > > > > > which is one of the bases for my series re "The New Extreme > Experimental > > > Poetry and Arts"-- > > > > > > actually in a very good translation of a poem may exist every bit as > much > > > manipulation for a purpose as there does in what you think of as one > with > > > bad intentions and so done poorly-- > > > > > > precisely the survival of certain texts through time has depended in > ways > > > upon the directions they were shifted by translators who wished to keep > > > them > > > alive-- > > > or, in order to adjust them to seem to be the precursors of a current > > > doctrine, whether of poetry or of the state or other institutions-- > > > > > > this is why translations are always being done over again, new ones > > > appearing to displace the old--in order to give a sense of the works > > being > > > "part of and important for our times" as well as for their own-- > > > > > > this is a matter of"poetry politics" often just as much as it may be of > > > "national politics"-- > > > > > > so it is that a current poet may give one a version which is far more > in > > > tune with the current kinds of poetry considered the most important or > > > best-- > > > > > > and this new version may not be much like a previous "outdated" one-- > > > > > > and yet considered to be a very good one in part because it does > indeed, > > > make the translated poet much more "available" to the modern reader -- > > > > > > i am not disagreeing with you or Benjamin, at all, but simply saying > that > > > what interests me personally is the proliferations of possibilities of > > > appropriation and translation, which extend writing into other realms > of > > > endeavor, and create After effects quite unexpected by the original > > > source-- > > > > > > the danger of thinking that there are only certain models of > translation > > in > > > existence by which to examine translations and to create them with--is > > that > > > there will become a creation of forms of > > conventionalism-conformity---which > > > in a sense denies the immense variety of possibilities, and in so > doing, > > > actually makes it easier for other more sinister versions to slip > > > themselves > > > into the mix and not be noticed, or simply waved to the side--as being > of > > > little importance--or quality--when in fact they may be carrying along > > > something of great significance, for the bad or good--yet which bears > > being > > > aware of-- > > > > > > in a sense one might say that i am not driven by a "rationale" so much > as > > > by > > > a sense never ceasing of amazement, of being astounded, by the ways in > > > which > > > words are used, their incredible paradoxes and paradoxical After and > > "side > > > effects," the ways in which they can be used to sell anything from Gods > > to > > > garbage bags, Presidents to pills--and as well make poetry that stops > the > > > blood cold-- > > > > > > in turn the sense of amazement has its companion, > > skepticism--questioning, > > > awareness of quantum leaps and uncertainty--of camouflages and the > beings > > > of > > > things wccih do not want to be as it were recognized--translated or > > > appropriated--not because of "resistances"--but something else, an > > > outside-- > > > > > > "The hills know but do not tell"--as Emily Dickinson puts it-- > > > and the Tao which can be named is not the Tao-- > > > > > > > > > in the word "After" in Spicer's title is also another meaning, besides > > the > > > predatory one you write of-- which is that this is written as it were > > > "after > > > the affair is over" in order in a sense to comprehend what Spicer is > > > finding > > > are its "After effects"-- > > > > > > Spicer indicates this in the "Last letter" and also in the final stanza > > of > > > "Radar" the postscript poem dedicated to marianne moore which "ends" > the > > > book and the letter, the final letter to Lorca. > > > > > > These words of a vanished forever ghost lover are, to me at any rate, > > > heartbreakingly beautiful--almost too much to bear to read-- > > > > > > Here is both the "After" the summer affair of love--and also--the > "After > > > effects"--as Spicer depicts them (with on the way, in this last letter, > > > also > > > a discussion of "Poe's mechanical chess player."--Again, an After > effect > > of > > > Poe as I have been discussing these-- > > > > > > From the letter's third paragraph: > > > > > > *"Yet it was there. ("The intimate communion with the ghost of Garcia > > > Lorca" which now "is over.") The poems are there, the memory not of a > > > vision but a kind of casual friendship with an undramatic ghost who > > > occasionally looked through my eyes and whispered to me, not really > more > > > important than my other friends, but now achieving a level of reality > by > > > being missing. Today, alone by myself, it is like having lost a pair > of > > > eyes and a lover. > > > "What is real, I suppose will endure. Poe's mechanical chess > > player > > > was not the less a miracle for having a man inside it, and when the man > > > departed, the games it had played were no less beautiful. The analogy > is > > > false, of course, but it holds both a promise and a warning for each of > > us. > > > "It is October now. Summer is over. Almost every trace of the > > months > > > of that produced these poems has been obliterated. Only explanations > are > > > possible, only regrets. > > > "Saying goodbye to a ghost is more final than saying goodbye to a > > > lover. Even the dead return, but a ghost, once loved, will never > > reappear. > > > > > > Love, Jack > > > > > > And here is the final stanza of the postscript poem, Radar" > > > (which, notice, is a palindrome-the same read backwards and forwards--) > > > > > > "I crawled into bed with sorrow that night > > > Couldn't touch his fingers. See the splash > > > Of the water > > > The noisy movement of the cloud > > > The push of the humpbacked mountains > > > Deep at the sand's edge.' > > > * > > > > > > > > > These "After effects" are real for Spicer, as what happened is > becoming, > > > now > > > that it is over, and seen in this "After" existence--ever more > real--even > > > as > > > it as a ghost lover is gone forever--the missing of it becomes a > reality > > > almost too much to bear and yet, as Spicer says--"It will endure." > > > > > > It is another aspect of Poe's "mournful and never ending remembrance" > of > > > the lost loved one, now dead-Just as "The Philosophy of Composition" is > > an > > > After effect of the poem "The Raven," so this final letter to Lorca is > a > > > coming to terms with finding a "philosophy of composition" in order to > > > understand why the now departed ghost lover is becoming more real than > it > > > had been while present, in part because it will never reappear again, > and > > > how it was that the poems were composed, came to be, without at the > time > > > realizing what was happening--not until they had the opportunity to be > as > > > they have become, the generators of a time's memory which has turned > into > > a > > > missing reality, never again to return. It is in the After-event, > > > After-effect that the "philosophy of composition" becomes a > reality--and > > > the > > > poetry which preceded becomes in turn "more real" than previously the > > poet > > > had been aware of. > > > > > > > > > This distance--into which a dead ghost lover is forever departed--never > > to > > > return-- > > > is a "real and final" distance, the full force of an intimacy never to > be > > > again-- > > > and so is the distance which has a life of its own-- > > > out side and away from the poet and the poem-- > > > and to be an outside also for the reader-- > > > > > > In a sense, this kind of distance is what i write of as things which do > > not > > > want to be appropriated or translated, but to be what they are, > distance, > > > never to reappear--never to be possessed-- > > > > > > i n a sense, writing itself, and also a writer, may wish to keep a > > privacy > > > even within the writing, which will never be found, not by anyone, > > because > > > the ghost lover it is created with is gone for ever-- > > > or because there are things which ghosts and writers wish to keep to > > > themselves, just as writing itself may have such things which are never > > > found that are living with in it-- > > > as though in fact long gone--never to reappear-- > > > > > > and yet one day one finds--hidden in plain sight/site/cite-- > > > which "neither speaks nor conceals but gives signs" > > > as Heraclitus says of the One Whose Oracle is at Delphi-- > > > > > > Also, if one is adopting so completely the method of Benjamin, in a > sense > > > are you not creating what you see as an opposition to your own work's > > > claims > > > within it: > > > > > > "If so, as you > > > > state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a > > text > > > > totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, > the > > > very > > > > reverse of what I am talking about." > > > > > > That is, if one is so embracing the philosophy of translation of > > Benjamin, > > > is not one in effect running the risk of turning the original "totally" > > not > > > into the translator's image, but in to the image of the philosophy of > > > translation which is guiding the translator? > > > > > > is not one in a sense working then in the service of a particular > > > philosophy > > > of translation? > > > > > > This is one of the reasons why i essay to keep alive the sense of the > > > incredibly teeming and endlessly imaginative and inventive ways in > which > > > translations and appropriations may be created and used, whether for > good > > > or > > > bad, better or worse, in order that one has a sense that there are > always > > > going to be at least two sides to every coin, and once it is being > > flipped > > > about-- > > > well--who knows how many different sides may suddenly show up via the > > > actions of palming and shifting the coin as it is being flipped-- > > > > > > What i hope to convey with readers or listeners if there are any real > or > > > imagainary ones about is that words and phrases poems and prose lead > > lives > > > of their own as well as the ones which a writer may or not have > > > intended--and any given reader have found or put there along the > way--and > > > that even when things seem to be one way, it is always interesting if > > not > > > often quite useful to find other ways in which the words may be > > > understood--for in them are living beings--with whom to engage-- > > > or who wish to engage themselves with oneself-- > > > > > > The more ways these words are understood as alive-- > > > is not this then to proliferate the lives of what are called writers > and > > > readers-- > > > as realities with real effects and After effects-- > > > > > > one thinks of the resistances of texts--why not also of those of living > > > beings-- > > > and of the outside-- > > > > > > in the sense in which a Russian artist says that "Language is a > fascism, > > > not > > > becuase it censors, but because it forces one to speak." > > > > > > a sense of words whose intentions are fugitive, not to be trapped > inside > > a > > > prison of languages which one is forced to speak-- > > > > > > to continue--on the move-- > > > as though one were indeed a hill set in movement-- > > > yet, seen as a hill-- > > > not expected nor forced to speak-- > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:24:31 -0500 > > > > From: muratnn@GMAIL.COM > > > > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > At the bifurcation they part Y one sling, yet in my heart one > > > > sling shot. > > > > > > > > The word "After" in Spicer's poem does not only mean "in imitation > of" > > or > > > > "in homage to." It also means "in pursuit of; it has a predatory > > > > connotation. In fact, Lorca's reactions from the grave to Spicer's > > > > solicitations is one of annoyance." A true translation is always an > act > > > of > > > > violence -loving or otherwise, that is the issue- against the > autonomy > > of > > > > the original. It literally must tear it up -fragment it- to open it > up > > to > > > a > > > > future life, the life of the text. This fragmentation does have the > > > elements > > > > of collage. Are you familiar with Eliot Weinberger's essay, "Notes On > > > > Translation" [?] of about fifteen years ago about which Kent Johnson > > > wrote > > > > an article which appears in the last issue of ALTA's *The Translation > > > Review > > > > *? > > > > > > > > In your comments, you focus on what a text loses in translation, > > through > > > > misreading (intentional or not) what gets silenced . My feeling is > you > > > are > > > > particularly thinking of the Guantanamo translations. One should also > > > think > > > > of what it gains: what starts as a "complete," closed text opens and > > > becomes > > > > a potential one, which is its life through time. > > > > > > > > A bad translator sees, detects no resistance in the original. If so, > as > > > you > > > > state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a > > text > > > > totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, > the > > > very > > > > reverse of what I am talking about. An original resits to be > > translated. > > > > That's why Benjamin says what gives a text translability is distance. > > The > > > > translator translates, integrates that distance. That is why a > > > translation > > > > has a tangential relationship to the second language, the distance, > > > > expressed as style, existing as an ideal, a template of potentiality > > for > > > it. > > > > > > > > Ciao, > > > > > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 5:24 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat > > > wrote: > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > At the bifurcation they part Y one sling, yet in my heart > > > one > > > > sling shot. > > > > > > > > The word "After" in Spicer's poem does not only mean "in imitation > of" > > or > > > > "in homage to." It also means "in pursuit of; it has a predatory > > > > connotation. In fact, Lorca's reactions from the grave to Spicer's > > > > solicitations is one of annoyance." A true translation is always an > act > > > of > > > > violence -loving or otherwise, that is the issue- against the > autonomy > > of > > > > the original. It literally must tear it up -fragment it- to open it > up > > to > > > a > > > > future life, the life of the text. This fragmentation does have the > > > > elements > > > > of collage. Are you familiar with Eliot Weinberger's essay, "Notes On > > > > Translation" [?] of about fifteen years ago about which Kent Johnson > > > wrote > > > > an article which appears in the last issue of ALTA's *The Translation > > > > Review > > > > *? > > > > > > > > In your comments, you focus on what a text loses in translation, > > through > > > > misreading (intentional or not) what gets silenced . My feeling is > you > > > are > > > > particularly thinking of the Guantanamo translations. One should also > > > think > > > > of what it gains: what starts as a "complete," closed text opens and > > > > becomes > > > > a potential one, which is its life through time. > > > > > > > > A bad translator sees, detects no resistance in the original. If so, > as > > > you > > > > state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a > > text > > > > totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, > the > > > very > > > > reverse of what I am talking about. An original resits to be > > translated. > > > > That's why Benjamin says what gives a text translability is distance. > > The > > > > translator translates, integrates that distance. That is why a > > > translation > > > > has a tangential relationship to the second language, the distance, > > > > expressed as style, existing as an ideal, a template of potentiality > > for > > > > it. > > > > > > > > Ciao, > > > > > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 05:41:17 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Francesco Levato Subject: Tom Raworth at The Poetry Center of Chicago Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Tom Raworth at The Poetry Center of Chicago Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 6:30pm SAIC Ballroom, 112 S. Michigan Avenue In partnership with the Chicago Poetry Project. Curated by John Tipton. For more information please visit our web site at http://www.poetrycenter.org Hope to see you there, Francesco Levato Executive Director The Poetry Center of Chicago ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 07:47:23 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081105200731.06937538@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i want the world to know: i sleep with my cat, although she snores. Mark Weiss wrote: > Before we wet ourselves with excitement, let's remember that any > democrat who didn't get caught sleeping with household pets would have > won this year, and that also in a lot of places black statewide office > holders are hardly novel. Obama ran a great campaign, and he was a > casting-office perfect candidate, and of course it didn't hurt getting > almost 100% of an enlarged black vote, but the states that flipped > were very close the last two times and moving steadily towards the > democrats, mostly due to demographic changes. Low-hanging fruit. On > the other hand, in the deep south almost 80% of white folks voted > against Obama. And three states voted against gay marriage and two > against affirmative action. > > I voted for the man, given what my choices were, but for the life of > me I can't figure out why he ran (remember who else was in the > democratic field) except "yes I can." He's yet to express any opinion > or propose anything that would risk hurting him with his constituents, > which is pretty amazing even for so short a time in politics. Here are > a few things he could do that would make me wild with > enthusiasm--hell, any one of them would make a convert of me--but > might cost him votes and affection the next time around. > > 1.Obama has supported subsidies for corn ethanol and for farming in > general, presumably because it pleased his Illinois constituents (it > probably didn't hurt him any in Iowa). These have each been disastrous > for Latin America (the subsidies made American corn cheaper than the > stuff grown at home, and the ethanol boom raised worldwide prices > life-threateningly high), which is why so many of them have been > risking their lives to cross the border. Then there's the > environmental damage. Obama could propose ending the subsidies. As a > bonus, it would put him in a position to suggest that the EU do the same. > > 2. Mexico is descending into chaos as its government acts as our > surrogate in fighting the drug lords. Colombia already went through > this, for how many years? A change in US drug laws would end the > problem in minutes--no prohibition, no value, and a fix costs pennies. > A lot of states have moved (slowly) towards reduced penalties, even > decriminalization of possession of some drugs. Even so, proposing > decriminalization would cost votes. Save a lot of money and lives, tho. > > 3. Need I mention the Cuban embargo? Obama will probably return travel > rules to their Clinton-era status, but he's been pretty clear that > Cuba has to democratize to get the rest. He'd lose a lot of votes in > Florida. > > 4. Israel's economy is dependent on 12 billion a year in loan > guarantees, without which no one would make the short-term loans that > all economies need. That's the muscle that would get them to the > bargaining table toot sweet. Of course it would cost most of the > Jewish vote, which is why no one's done it. > > I could probably come up with a few more. I'm waiting to be convinced. > > Mark > > At 05:20 PM 11/5/2008, you wrote: >> Hi Stephen, >> >> I'm In Chicago, and while I didn't make it out to Grant Park last night, >> today there is a real feeling of uplift in the air. There's still a >> lot of >> rubble to dig out of, but it now feels as if we might just make it. >> >> Larry >> >> http://larryodean.blogspot.com >> http://larryodean.com >> >> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 23:20:18 -0800, Stephen Vincent >> >> wrote: >> > I don't know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's victory >> feels >> > like we - as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have (finally) >> been >> > pulled out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for 8 >> long, >> > paralytic years. >> > I am in San Francisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but >> there is >> > music and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy happy! >> > I know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now >> feels >> > good, good & real good. >> > >> > Whew! >> > >> > Stephen V >> > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:17:37 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I have to say I agree with Sarah; there's definitely a sea change at work. A lot of us have a sense of buried joy - I don't know how to put this - a kind of disblief that the cold war warriors are on their way out, at least for a while - no more cheney, bush, rice, and the rest of the cabal. We've lived under a cloud for years and this is different and beautiful, if only within the symbolic and possibly more. I _do_ mourn the setbacks to gay rights and that has to be kept in mind (and as noted that took some of the euphoria out of the moment) but we have to be able to open ourselves to joy, something the left (I think myself among them) almost never does. The right certainly has a sense of bitterness at the moment; it seems a shame for the left to follow suit. Better to go I think with election parties (we had one), the happiness and dancing in the streets - that's also part of life. It's not naive and not giving in and not seeing the world with blinders. It's being joyful. I certainly don't think _any_ Democrat would have won; Gore didn't or did but with hardly a landslide and conditions had been truly evil for a long time. This was different - at least in NY the grass-roots voting efforts were something I'd not seen before, not to this excent, not with McGovern or Kennedy, not with anyone. Perhaps the world _can_ be changed - I think it so - but not at the rate that will satisfy a lot of people. And it has changed, and that was reflected in Jesse Jackson's face for example which was haunting and happy again in a way I hadn't seen before. I'm probably one of the more pessimistic people on Poetics, and/but this may be a time of subtle beauty. The worst thing is to give up hope, to proceed with business as usual - that just in fact continues business as usual... - Alan On Thu, 6 Nov 2008, Sarah Sarai wrote: > Well, good heavens, send Obama your wish list. And cc Santa. > > But give me a break. ANY Democrat who didn't sleep with what was it, > small animals, farm animals would win? NO Democrat (and don't they all > bed with the help and the livestock and domesticated furry creatures and > reptiles not to mention winged things and catch of the sea, the whole > surf 'n turf scene) has managed to not shoot him/herself in the foot for > years. For once a Republican gallantly stepped in to do the job (bless > you, McCain), in this case by loading his pistol with Alaska's > heartbreak and sorrow, which for once was too much for Americans to > handle - such a reflection of where we're headed, Ms. Palin is. > > The percentage of black voters wasn't much bigger than in previous > years, by the way. > > He IS just another politician and we're likely to disagree with him > sooner or later and probably sooner rather than later. The markets are > going to continue to crumble, the stock exchange is withering as we > speak. The big money interests that helped fund his campaign will > demand their due. Water is still water; wine, wine; in a day or two, > Spike Lee STILL won't be able to get a cab. > > The poor will STILL be with us, with their rapacious demands for food > and shelter. > > It's the job of the poet to love the world. Maybe loving is the same as > grieving and maybe that's what you're doing; I grant I'm being a little > hard, here, Mark (but you really annoyed me). For me, there IS a shift > in consciousness, making our job momentarily easy - for a moment world > opinion has us as a generous peoples blind to race and religion, for > crissakes - but it, loving the world AS IF it could be changed, still > needs to be done because consciousness wants to snuggle up with its old > self and will, it will, unless prodded by the fools the poets are. > > We need to gain weight so our sweaters can never fit like they used to. > > > Sarah Sarai > 4:30 a.m., 11/6 > > http://www.myspace.com/sarahsarai > http://www.mississippireview.com/2008/Vol14No4-Oct08/1404-100108-Sarai.html > http://www.ghotimag.com/Sarai.htm > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:21:17 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'm not immune to symbolism. but I was around for the last national feel-good. It was great, desperate fun, though it didn't change nearly as much of what needed and needs to be changed as we hoped. A response "from a poet" seems to imply that those who disagree aren't. That aside, "it's the job of the poet to love the world" sounds like "so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son." Or maybe "its's the job of cheerleaders to sleep with quarterbacks." Taking part in the game of power is a form of self-seduction and maybe self-delusion. It's the job of the poet to write poems, and that comes in many forms. For me the poem is a tool of investigation, as cold and clear-eyed as I can make it. It's fine by me if others prefer to write coronation anthems. Here's a piece of world-loving Obama could practice. The US government leases vast amounts of land in the mountain west at nominal rents to ranchers. This land has been overgrazed for generations. Even so, there's not enough grass or a long enough season to bring the cattle up to markey weight, so the major roads of the high prairie are lined with feedlots which poison the air with the stench of urine and incidentally degrade the aquifers beneath them, where the cattle are force-fed corn grown in Illinois and Iowa. The overgrazed land is at the headwaters of our major rivers, into which increased, in places catastrophic, erosion drains. It also contributes to flooding. So everybody downstream is affected. The damage already done to the grazing lands is irreversible. Even with all the freebies, and ignoring the damage, it's inordinately expensive to produce beef this way, which is why killer tariffs have been imposed on free-range Argentine beef, at a cost to our diplomatic standing. One can ignore the damage done in a time of impending water shortages, but not the unlegislated tax levied on every bite of steak. The leasing of grazing land and the rent charged is largely a matter of executive branch policy, not legislation. It's not a sustainable practice. Much of it could be changed with a stroke of the executive pen. But that would anger voters in corn-growing states and in the cattle-rearing states of the mountain west, newly-democratic Colorado among them each of which have voters and two senators, largely funded by big agribusiness companies and mining and oil-and-gas interests (that's a whole other topic), whose votes are needed for things that make life easier for folks who live in areas where the population exceeds 2 per square mile. I'd maybe trade my only-begotten son for a sign of courage on that front. Mark At 04:52 AM 11/6/2008, you wrote: >Well, good heavens, send Obama your wish list. And cc Santa. > >But give me a break. ANY Democrat who didn't sleep with what was >it, small animals, >farm animals would win? NO Democrat (and don't they all bed with >the help and the >livestock and domesticated furry creatures and reptiles not to >mention winged things and >catch of the sea, the whole surf 'n turf scene) has managed to not >shoot him/herself in >the foot for years. For once a Republican gallantly stepped in to >do the job (bless you, >McCain), in this case by loading his pistol with Alaska's heartbreak >and sorrow, which for >once was too much for Americans to handle - such a reflection of >where we're headed, >Ms. Palin is. > >The percentage of black voters wasn't much bigger than in previous >years, by the way. > >He IS just another politician and we're likely to disagree with him >sooner or later and >probably sooner rather than later. The markets are going to >continue to crumble, the >stock exchange is withering as we speak. The big money interests >that helped fund his >campaign will demand their due. Water is still water; wine, wine; >in a day or two, Spike >Lee STILL won't be able to get a cab. > >The poor will STILL be with us, with their rapacious demands for >food and shelter. > >It's the job of the poet to love the world. Maybe loving is the >same as grieving and >maybe that's what you're doing; I grant I'm being a little hard, >here, Mark (but you really >annoyed me). For me, there IS a shift in consciousness, making our >job momentarily >easy - for a moment world opinion has us as a generous peoples blind >to race and >religion, for crissakes - but it, loving the world AS IF it could be >changed, still needs to be >done because consciousness wants to snuggle up with its old self and >will, it will, unless >prodded by the fools the poets are. > >We need to gain weight so our sweaters can never fit like they used to. > > >Sarah Sarai >4:30 a.m., 11/6 > >http://www.myspace.com/sarahsarai >http://www.mississippireview.com/2008/Vol14No4-Oct08/1404-100108-Sarai.html >http://www.ghotimag.com/Sarai.htm > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:40:03 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: (please add to other post if you can, apologies) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I just want to add here, what should be an argument in length, following on the lead of What's the Matter with Kansas (years ago and among other sources including critical theory), that what's been achieved is something the Democrats almost never have, symbolic capital. This has been a main- stay of the Republican party, from religion (the Democrats will take our Bibles away) to Gay rights (our children will be corrupted) to gun control (not over my cold dead hands, they're coming over the hill) etc. etc. Symbolic capital works better than difficult economics and diplomacy which are, on the horizon, assumed to be tied to it; of course they're not. Symbolic capital is tied to fear and paranoia and class (Bourdieu's Distinction) but not in clear-cut ways. For a long time 'NASCAR dads,' like 'hockey moms' or for that matter 'Joe the Plumber' have worked to the Republican's favor - this is in a way a tremendous conflation of poetics with politics (and of course relates to fascist aesthetics as well, although that might be an uncomfortable fit). The Democrats haven't been able to mobilize this way for a long time. But just look even at Google news at this point for foreign reaction - the word 'elation' was used. And we should never underestimate symbolic capital; it can be used - again as evident with proposition 8 - for motivation in all sorts of way - and this time, in this presidential election - for good. - Alan | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 10:47:14 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sharon Mesmer/David Borchart Subject: Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: <2E15B35073C34895AA71879C6926910C@net.plm.eds.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Aryanil, Goddess bless you!! On Nov 5, 2008, at 9:27 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > Yes true - this is the USAmerica all want to see. > A new country where the word "new" upholds a value rare to be found > elsewhere. > > But I also hope your congrats extend to people like me who signed > up for, > worked, supported the Obama campaign in every possible way during > the last > several months knowing fully well that I can't even cast my vote > as I still > remain a citizen of India. > > Aryanil > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Jim Andrews > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 12:51 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Hallelujah! > > Congratulations to the USAmericans on the list. What a proud and > beautiful > moment for you as a people. The faces of the people listening to > Barack > Obama's acceptance speech in Chicago were filled with wonder, > happiness, > hope, and pride. That is the USAmerica the rest of the world loves > to see. > May he be as good a president as his acceptance speech. Damn that > was good. > > ja > http://vispo.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:25:43 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: Advertise in Boog City's Small Presses Issue Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Please forward ----------------------- Advertise in Boog City 52: Small Presses Issue Featuring pages from NYC Small Presses Farfalla Press, Open 24 Hours, :::the press gang:::, and X-ing Books *Deadlines --Space Reservations-Email to reserve ad space ASAP --Mon. Nov. 10-Ad or ad copy to editor --Tues. Nov. 11-Issue to be distributed We have 2,250 copies distributed and available free throughout Manhattan's East Village, and Williamsburg and Greenpoint, Brooklyn. ----- Take advantage of our indie discount ad rate. We are once again offering a 50% discount on our 1/8-page ads, cutting them from $80 to $40. (The discount rate also applies to larger ads. Ask for full rate card.) Advertise your small press's newest publications, your own titles or upcoming readings, or maybe salute an author you feel people should be reading, with a few suggested books to buy. And musical acts, advertise your new albums, indie labels your new releases. (We're also cool with donations, real cool.) Email editor@boogcity.com or call 212-842-BOOG (2664) for more information. thanks, David -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W. 28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:11:21 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "+ UGA CWP Present". Rest of header flushed. From: Michael Tod Edgerton Subject: VOX Reading: Ben Marcus & Kristen Iskandrian - Nov 12 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ben Marcus & Kristen Iskandria= VOX Reading Series=0A+ UGA CWP Present=0A =0ABen Marcus & Kristen Iskandria= n=0A =0A8pmWednesday,=0ANovember 12=0ACin=C3=A9 Theater=0A234 West Hancock = Ave=0A =0ABen=0AMarcusis the author of three books of fiction: Notable=0AAm= erican Women (Vintage, 2002), The Father Costume, with artist=0AMatthew Rit= chie (Artspace Books, 2002), and The Age of Wire and=0AString (Dalkey Archi= ve, 1998), and is the editor of The Anchor=0ABook of New American Short Sto= ries (Anchor, 2004). His fiction,=0Aessays, and reviews have appeared in nu= merous publications including Harper's,The=0ANew York Times, The ParisRevie= w, Conjunctions, McSweeney's, andThe Believer.=0A He teaches at Columbia Un= iversity, where he is Chair of the Writing=0AProgram.=0A =0A =0AKristen Isk= andrian=E2=80=99s stories=0Ahave appeared in La Petite Zine,GulfCoast,Ameri= can Letters & Commentary, Memorious, DenverQuarterly, and elsewhere. A PhD= =0Acandidate in English and Creative Writing at Universityof Georgia, she i= s working=0Aon her first book, a collection of fiction.=0A=0AHope those of = you who will be in the Atlanta/Athens area can make it!=0A=0AAll best,=0A= =0AMichael Tod Edgerton, Lara Glenum, Donna Stonecipher=0AVOX Reading Serie= s=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:12:52 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: patrick dunagan Subject: Fwd: reading tomorrow night at Adobe Books San Francisco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *** ADOBE BOOKS 11/6 @ 8 new work in the back room gallery by Ryan Coffey readings by Jason Morris, Cedar Sigo & Patrick James Dunagan Patrick James Dunagan lives in San Francisco and works at the library of USF. Poems and book reviews have recently appeared or are forthcoming in Blue Book, Cannibal, Galatea Ressurrects, Jacket, Morning Train, One Less Magazine, St Mark's Poetry Project Newsletter, and Vanitas. Chapbooks include: Of Stone (Snag), After the Sinews (Auguste), and Fess Parker (Red Ant). Easy Eden, a collaboration with Micah Ballard, is due out in 2008 from PUSH. Jason Morris is the editor of Big Bell. His poems have appeared or are forthcoming in Forklift Ohio, Salt Hill, Puppyflowers, Fourteen Hills, Mirage #4 Period(ical), Ping Pong & elsewhere. His first book is forthcoming on Auguste Press & his essay on the New Sincerity recently appeared in the online magazine Jacket. He's a bartender on Haight St. Cedar Sigo is 30 years old and lives in San Francisco. His books include Goodnight Nurse, Thankyou Letters, two editions of Selected Writings, Stranger In Town, Deathrace VSOP (with Micah Ballard & Will Yackulic) and most recently Expensive Magic. *** ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 12:28:13 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Nov 9: Janssen, Karmin & Behm-Steinberg in Chicago Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Readings by Lisa Janssen Jennifer Karmin Hugh Behm-Steinberg Sunday, November 9th 7pm at Myopic Books 1564 N. Milwaukee Ave -- Chicago, IL http://www.myopicbookstore.com/mynews LISA JANSSEN is a poet and archivist living in Chicago. Her poetry has=20= appeared most recently in WSQ =96 Women's Studies Quarterly, MAKE, and th= e=20 chapbook Riffing on Bird and Other Sad Songs (dusi/e-chap kollektiv). Her= film=20 criticism has been published in Molten Rectangle and the upcoming Drag Ci= ty=20 anothology Yes/No Movies. She is a graduate of the Naropa Institute (now=20= Naropa University) writing program and currently co-edits the literary jo= urnal=20 MoonLit. JENNIFER KARMIN curates the Red Rover Series with Lisa Janssen and is co-= founder of the public art group Anti Gravity Surprise. Her poems appear= in=20 the new anthologies A Sing Economy and Come Together: Imagine Peace.=20 She teaches creative writing to immigrants at Truman College and works as= a=20 Poet-in-Residence for the Chicago Public Schools. In January 2009, she a= nd=20 Amina Cain will present the festival When Does It or You Begin? (Memory a= s=20 Innovation) at Links Hall. HUGH BEHM-STEINBERG is the author of Shy Green Fields (No Tell Books) and= =20 Sorcery (Dusie Chapbook Kollektiv). His poems can be found in such place= s as=20 Crowd, VeRT, Volt, Spork, Cue, Slope, Aught, Swerve, Fence, and Zeek, as=20= well as more multisyllabic places as Ping Pong, Free Verse and Left Facin= g=20 Bird. He teaches in the graduate writing program at California College o= f the=20 Arts, where he edits the journal Eleven Eleven. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:08:20 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I'm all for pulling down the wall. Immigration policy is one-sided, unfair, and privileged, not to mention indicative/symptomatic of the late-crisis of the nation-state. Having offered my viewpoint of the wall between the US an= d Mexico, I'm curious: what do you all suggest be there in place of the wall and why should we pull it down? On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 10:23 PM, cris cheek wrote: > HI Mark > > i utterly agree . . . end the war on drugs > > pull down the wall going up between Mexico and USA for another thing > > just for a start > > cris > > > > On Nov 5, 2008, at 9:40 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Before we wet ourselves with excitement, let's >> remember that any democrat who didn't get caught >> sleeping with household pets would have won this >> year, and that also in a lot of places black >> statewide office holders are hardly novel. Obama >> ran a great campaign, and he was a casting-office >> perfect candidate, and of course it didn't hurt >> getting almost 100% of an enlarged black vote, >> but the states that flipped were very close the >> last two times and moving steadily towards the >> democrats, mostly due to demographic changes. >> Low-hanging fruit. On the other hand, in the deep >> south almost 80% of white folks voted against >> Obama. And three states voted against gay >> marriage and two against affirmative action. >> >> I voted for the man, given what my choices were, >> but for the life of me I can't figure out why he >> ran (remember who else was in the democratic >> field) except "yes I can." He's yet to express >> any opinion or propose anything that would risk >> hurting him with his constituents, which is >> pretty amazing even for so short a time in >> politics. Here are a few things he could do that >> would make me wild with enthusiasm--hell, any one >> of them would make a convert of me--but might >> cost him votes and affection the next time around. >> >> 1.Obama has supported subsidies for corn ethanol >> and for farming in general, presumably because it >> pleased his Illinois constituents (it probably >> didn't hurt him any in Iowa). These have each >> been disastrous for Latin America (the subsidies >> made American corn cheaper than the stuff grown >> at home, and the ethanol boom raised worldwide >> prices life-threateningly high), which is why so >> many of them have been risking their lives to >> cross the border. Then there's the environmental >> damage. Obama could propose ending the subsidies. >> As a bonus, it would put him in a position to suggest that the EU do the >> same. >> >> 2. Mexico is descending into chaos as its >> government acts as our surrogate in fighting the >> drug lords. Colombia already went through this, >> for how many years? A change in US drug laws >> would end the problem in minutes--no prohibition, >> no value, and a fix costs pennies. A lot of >> states have moved (slowly) towards reduced >> penalties, even decriminalization of possession >> of some drugs. Even so, proposing >> decriminalization would cost votes. Save a lot of money and lives, tho. >> >> 3. Need I mention the Cuban embargo? Obama will >> probably return travel rules to their Clinton-era >> status, but he's been pretty clear that Cuba has >> to democratize to get the rest. He'd lose a lot of votes in Florida. >> >> 4. Israel's economy is dependent on 12 billion a >> year in loan guarantees, without which no one >> would make the short-term loans that all >> economies need. That's the muscle that would get >> them to the bargaining table toot sweet. Of >> course it would cost most of the Jewish vote, which is why no one's done >> it. >> >> I could probably come up with a few more. I'm waiting to be convinced. >> >> Mark >> >> At 05:20 PM 11/5/2008, you wrote: >> >>> Hi Stephen, >>> >>> I'm In Chicago, and while I didn't make it out to Grant Park last night= , >>> today there is a real feeling of uplift in the air. There's still a lot >>> of >>> rubble to dig out of, but it now feels as if we might just make it. >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> http://larryodean.blogspot.com >>> http://larryodean.com >>> >>> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 23:20:18 -0800, Stephen Vincent >> > >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I don't know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's victory feel= s >>>> like we - as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have (finally) bee= n >>>> pulled out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for 8 >>>> long, >>>> paralytic years. >>>> I am in San Francisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but there >>>> is >>>> music and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy happy!= =C2 >>>> I know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now >>>> >>> feels >>> >>>> good, good & real good. >>>> >>>> Whew! >>>> >>>> Stephen V >>>> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >>>> >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept >>> all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 12:19:53 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Halvard Johnson In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081105200731.06937538@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) I'm pretty sure you're referring to Big D Democrats here, Mark. Hal Todo se vende. Halvard Johnson =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Nov 5, 2008, at 8:40 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Before we wet ourselves with excitement, let's remember that any =20 > democrat who didn't get caught sleeping with household pets would =20 > have won this year, and that also in a lot of places black statewide =20= > office holders are hardly novel. Obama ran a great campaign, and he =20= > was a casting-office perfect candidate, and of course it didn't hurt =20= > getting almost 100% of an enlarged black vote, but the states that =20 > flipped were very close the last two times and moving steadily =20 > towards the democrats, mostly due to demographic changes. Low-=20 > hanging fruit. On the other hand, in the deep south almost 80% of =20 > white folks voted against Obama. And three states voted against gay =20= > marriage and two against affirmative action. > > I voted for the man, given what my choices were, but for the life of =20= > me I can't figure out why he ran (remember who else was in the =20 > democratic field) except "yes I can." He's yet to express any =20 > opinion or propose anything that would risk hurting him with his =20 > constituents, which is pretty amazing even for so short a time in =20 > politics. Here are a few things he could do that would make me wild =20= > with enthusiasm--hell, any one of them would make a convert of me--=20 > but might cost him votes and affection the next time around. > > 1.Obama has supported subsidies for corn ethanol and for farming in =20= > general, presumably because it pleased his Illinois constituents (it =20= > probably didn't hurt him any in Iowa). These have each been =20 > disastrous for Latin America (the subsidies made American corn =20 > cheaper than the stuff grown at home, and the ethanol boom raised =20 > worldwide prices life-threateningly high), which is why so many of =20 > them have been risking their lives to cross the border. Then there's =20= > the environmental damage. Obama could propose ending the subsidies. =20= > As a bonus, it would put him in a position to suggest that the EU do =20= > the same. > > 2. Mexico is descending into chaos as its government acts as our =20 > surrogate in fighting the drug lords. Colombia already went through =20= > this, for how many years? A change in US drug laws would end the =20 > problem in minutes--no prohibition, no value, and a fix costs =20 > pennies. A lot of states have moved (slowly) towards reduced =20 > penalties, even decriminalization of possession of some drugs. Even =20= > so, proposing decriminalization would cost votes. Save a lot of =20 > money and lives, tho. > > 3. Need I mention the Cuban embargo? Obama will probably return =20 > travel rules to their Clinton-era status, but he's been pretty clear =20= > that Cuba has to democratize to get the rest. He'd lose a lot of =20 > votes in Florida. > > 4. Israel's economy is dependent on 12 billion a year in loan =20 > guarantees, without which no one would make the short-term loans =20 > that all economies need. That's the muscle that would get them to =20 > the bargaining table toot sweet. Of course it would cost most of the =20= > Jewish vote, which is why no one's done it. > > I could probably come up with a few more. I'm waiting to be convinced. > > Mark > > At 05:20 PM 11/5/2008, you wrote: >> Hi Stephen, >> >> I'm In Chicago, and while I didn't make it out to Grant Park last =20 >> night, >> today there is a real feeling of uplift in the air. There's still a =20= >> lot of >> rubble to dig out of, but it now feels as if we might just make it. >> >> Larry >> >> http://larryodean.blogspot.com >> http://larryodean.com >> >> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 23:20:18 -0800, Stephen Vincent = > > >> wrote: >> > I don't know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's victory =20= >> feels >> > like we - as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have =20 >> (finally) been >> > pulled out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for =20= >> 8 long, >> > paralytic years. >> > I am in San Francisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but =20= >> there is >> > music and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy =20 >> happy!=C2 >> > I know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is =20= >> now >> feels >> > good, good & real good. >> > >> > Whew! >> > >> > Stephen V >> > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: = http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: = http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:28:57 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?= Subject: New book by Shigeru Matsui MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline _______________ Volume 9 of the poem-work CAMOUFLAGE by Shigeru Matsui has just been published by The Photographer's Gallery in Tokyo, Japan. This volume is composed of 84,000 characters ("/" forward slash 42,000 and "\" back slash 42,000) in total. According to Matsui, CAMOUFLAGE "is a poetic practice about the palindrome and the anagram, and the text as criticism. At the same time it is visual poem. This poem work's background is Saussure's anagram study." The title is taken from the following sentences of Nabokov's novel The Gift : "Striped and spotted with words, dressed in verbal camouflage, the important idea he wished to convey would slip through ..." Each issue of the series is published as a 20-paged chapbook, soft-cover. Volume 9 is incredibly beautiful. For more information, see the web-site for The Photographer's Gallery at http://pg-web.net/scb/shop/shop.cgi?No=3D235 Also, you will find Shigeru Matsui's web-site at http://www008.upp.so-net.ne.jp/methodpoem/ Best regards, S=E9amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 12:18:50 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: patrick dunagan Subject: Correction: reading at Adobe Books San Francisco is TONIGHT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline THIS READING IS TONIGHT, apologies for duplicate message *** ADOBE BOOKS 11/6 @ 8 new work in the back room gallery by Ryan Coffey readings by Jason Morris, Cedar Sigo & Patrick James Dunagan Patrick James Dunagan lives in San Francisco and works at the library of USF. Poems and book reviews have recently appeared or are forthcoming in Blue Book, Cannibal, Galatea Ressurrects, Jacket, Morning Train, One Less Magazine, St Mark's Poetry Project Newsletter, and Vanitas. Chapbooks include: Of Stone (Snag), After the Sinews (Auguste), and Fess Parker (Red Ant). Easy Eden, a collaboration with Micah Ballard, is due out in 2008 from PUSH. Jason Morris is the editor of Big Bell. His poems have appeared or are forthcoming in Forklift Ohio, Salt Hill, Puppyflowers, Fourteen Hills, Mirage #4 Period(ical), Ping Pong & elsewhere. His first book is forthcoming on Auguste Press & his essay on the New Sincerity recently appeared in the online magazine Jacket. He's a bartender on Haight St. Cedar Sigo is 30 years old and lives in San Francisco. His books include Goodnight Nurse, Thankyou Letters, two editions of Selected Writings, Stranger In Town, Deathrace VSOP (with Micah Ballard & Will Yackulic) and most recently Expensive Magic. *** ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 14:22:27 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?= Subject: The "Closure" books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline _______________ WE LOVE YOUR BOOKS is a collaboration between Melanie Bush of the University of Northampton, Emma Powell of De Montfort University (Leicester) and Louise Bird of the University of Northampton. They are planning an exhibition of Poets' and Artists' hand-made books for August-September of 2009. There is a June 1, 2009 deadline for submissions. For more information about the "Closure" exhibition, see http://www.weloveyourbooks.com/page17/page17.html Be sure to explore the We Love Your Books web-site for a beautiful JPG gallery of books from previous exhibitions (including books by several people on this list). http://www.weloveyourbooks.com Best regards, S=E9amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 15:33:31 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Sharon/David. This historic moment is like a moonrock to me, where, like so many others, I wanted to leave my humble fingerpints. Aryanil -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Sharon Mesmer/David Borchart Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:47 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Hallelujah! Aryanil, Goddess bless you!! On Nov 5, 2008, at 9:27 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > Yes true - this is the USAmerica all want to see. > A new country where the word "new" upholds a value rare to be found > elsewhere. > > But I also hope your congrats extend to people like me who signed > up for, > worked, supported the Obama campaign in every possible way during > the last > several months knowing fully well that I can't even cast my vote > as I still > remain a citizen of India. > > Aryanil > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Jim Andrews > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 12:51 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Hallelujah! > > Congratulations to the USAmericans on the list. What a proud and > beautiful > moment for you as a people. The faces of the people listening to > Barack > Obama's acceptance speech in Chicago were filled with wonder, > happiness, > hope, and pride. That is the USAmerica the rest of the world loves > to see. > May he be as good a president as his acceptance speech. Damn that > was good. > > ja > http://vispo.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 15:56:17 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Alan, It is great to see you gushing. The truth is I agree with you. My son and I were celebrating drinking the beer he had brought from his visit to Maine watching T.V. I couldn't still believe it when Pennsylvania went to Obama. We learnt of Obama's projection as the next president while we were watching Comedy Central (my son's choice). Suddenly John Stewart wrote something on a board and turned it to the audience. It announced Obama as the winner. Wow! Then Stewart, Colbert and the whole crew left the staged, went up the stairs of the building to the roof. It was daylight. The, I think Stewart asked, "is this way the way the world looks without Bush, then, the scene showed a deer gamboling in the field... It felt like a miracle, not very different from the way you (and I) are feeling today. It was a miracle. Millions and millions of white Americans entered the privacy of the voting booth and chose a black man for president. Alan, do you remember the exchange you and I had on the list after Kerrey's defeat? We agreed that it was foolish to deny or look down upon the religious feeling among the population in the United States. Are your comments on the power of symbols about the same thing? Ciao, Murat On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Alan Sondheim wrote: > I have to say I agree with Sarah; there's definitely a sea change at work. > A lot of us have a sense of buried joy - I don't know how to put this - a > kind of disblief that the cold war warriors are on their way out, at least > for a while - no more cheney, bush, rice, and the rest of the cabal. We've > lived under a cloud for years and this is different and beautiful, if only > within the symbolic and possibly more. I _do_ mourn the setbacks to gay > rights and that has to be kept in mind (and as noted that took some of the > euphoria out of the moment) but we have to be able to open ourselves to joy, > something the left (I think myself among them) almost never does. The right > certainly has a sense of bitterness at the moment; it seems a shame for the > left to follow suit. Better to go I think with election parties (we had > one), the happiness and dancing in the streets - that's also part of life. > It's not naive and not giving in and not seeing the world with blinders. > It's being joyful. > > I certainly don't think _any_ Democrat would have won; Gore didn't or did > but with hardly a landslide and conditions had been truly evil for a long > time. This was different - at least in NY the grass-roots voting efforts > were something I'd not seen before, not to this excent, not with McGovern or > Kennedy, not with anyone. > > Perhaps the world _can_ be changed - I think it so - but not at the rate > that will satisfy a lot of people. And it has changed, and that was > reflected in Jesse Jackson's face for example which was haunting and happy > again in a way I hadn't seen before. > > I'm probably one of the more pessimistic people on Poetics, and/but this > may be a time of subtle beauty. The worst thing is to give up hope, to > proceed with business as usual - that just in fact continues business as > usual... > > - Alan > > > On Thu, 6 Nov 2008, Sarah Sarai wrote: > > Well, good heavens, send Obama your wish list. And cc Santa. >> >> But give me a break. ANY Democrat who didn't sleep with what was it, >> small animals, farm animals would win? NO Democrat (and don't they all bed >> with the help and the livestock and domesticated furry creatures and >> reptiles not to mention winged things and catch of the sea, the whole surf >> 'n turf scene) has managed to not shoot him/herself in the foot for years. >> For once a Republican gallantly stepped in to do the job (bless you, >> McCain), in this case by loading his pistol with Alaska's heartbreak and >> sorrow, which for once was too much for Americans to handle - such a >> reflection of where we're headed, Ms. Palin is. >> >> The percentage of black voters wasn't much bigger than in previous years, >> by the way. >> >> He IS just another politician and we're likely to disagree with him sooner >> or later and probably sooner rather than later. The markets are going to >> continue to crumble, the stock exchange is withering as we speak. The big >> money interests that helped fund his campaign will demand their due. Water >> is still water; wine, wine; in a day or two, Spike Lee STILL won't be able >> to get a cab. >> >> The poor will STILL be with us, with their rapacious demands for food and >> shelter. >> >> It's the job of the poet to love the world. Maybe loving is the same as >> grieving and maybe that's what you're doing; I grant I'm being a little >> hard, here, Mark (but you really annoyed me). For me, there IS a shift in >> consciousness, making our job momentarily easy - for a moment world opinion >> has us as a generous peoples blind to race and religion, for crissakes - but >> it, loving the world AS IF it could be changed, still needs to be done >> because consciousness wants to snuggle up with its old self and will, it >> will, unless prodded by the fools the poets are. >> >> We need to gain weight so our sweaters can never fit like they used to. >> >> >> Sarah Sarai >> 4:30 a.m., 11/6 >> >> http://www.myspace.com/sarahsarai >> >> http://www.mississippireview.com/2008/Vol14No4-Oct08/1404-100108-Sarai.html >> http://www.ghotimag.com/Sarai.htm >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> > > > | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ > | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: > | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 > | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org > | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:02:58 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Replace the wall with a place for migrant workers to get registration and w= orker visas. The vast majority of illegals just want to work. We should hav= e such places on this side of the border because the corrupt socialist gove= rnment of Mexico blocks migrant workers form getting such visas. They are q= uite restrictive win their policies that way. The U.S. should in turn encou= rage market reforms in Mexico so that people won't be forced to leave their= country to find work. Also, ending the war on drugs here and there would e= liminate much of the corruption in Mexico and along our border that helps f= oster poverty. =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A______________________________= __=0AFrom: Ryan Daley =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.ED= U=0ASent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 12:08:20 PM=0ASubject: =0A=0AI'm all f= or pulling down the wall. Immigration policy is one-sided, unfair,=0Aand pr= ivileged, not to mention indicative/symptomatic of the late-crisis of=0Athe= nation-state. Having offered my viewpoint of the wall between the US and= =0AMexico, I'm curious: what do you all suggest be there in place of the wa= ll=0Aand why should we pull it down?=0A=0AOn Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 10:23 PM, = cris cheek wrote:=0A=0A> HI Mark=0A>=0A> i utterly agre= e . . . end the war on drugs=0A>=0A> pull down the wall going up between Me= xico and USA for another thing=0A>=0A> just for a start=0A>=0A> cris=0A>=0A= >=0A>=0A> On Nov 5, 2008, at 9:40 PM, Mark Weiss wrote:=0A>=0A> Before we = wet ourselves with excitement, let's=0A>> remember that any democrat who di= dn't get caught=0A>> sleeping with household pets would have won this=0A>> = year, and that also in a lot of places black=0A>> statewide office holders = are hardly novel. Obama=0A>> ran a great campaign, and he was a casting-off= ice=0A>> perfect candidate, and of course it didn't hurt=0A>> getting almos= t 100% of an enlarged black vote,=0A>> but the states that flipped were ver= y close the=0A>> last two times and moving steadily towards the=0A>> democr= ats, mostly due to demographic changes.=0A>> Low-hanging fruit. On the othe= r hand, in the deep=0A>> south almost 80% of white folks voted against=0A>>= Obama. And three states voted against gay=0A>> marriage and two against af= firmative action.=0A>>=0A>> I voted for the man, given what my choices were= ,=0A>> but for the life of me I can't figure out why he=0A>> ran (remember = who else was in the democratic=0A>> field) except "yes I can." He's yet to = express=0A>> any opinion or propose anything that would risk=0A>> hurting h= im with his constituents, which is=0A>> pretty amazing even for so short a = time in=0A>> politics. Here are a few things he could do that=0A>> would ma= ke me wild with enthusiasm--hell, any one=0A>> of them would make a convert= of me--but might=0A>> cost him votes and affection the next time around.= =0A>>=0A>> 1.Obama has supported subsidies for corn ethanol=0A>> and for fa= rming in general, presumably because it=0A>> pleased his Illinois constitue= nts (it probably=0A>> didn't hurt him any in Iowa). These have each=0A>> be= en disastrous for Latin America (the subsidies=0A>> made American corn chea= per than the stuff grown=0A>> at home, and the ethanol boom raised worldwid= e=0A>> prices life-threateningly high), which is why so=0A>> many of them h= ave been risking their lives to=0A>> cross the border. Then there's the env= ironmental=0A>> damage. Obama could propose ending the subsidies.=0A>> As a= bonus, it would put him in a position to suggest that the EU do the=0A>> s= ame.=0A>>=0A>> 2. Mexico is descending into chaos as its=0A>> government ac= ts as our surrogate in fighting the=0A>> drug lords. Colombia already went = through this,=0A>> for how many years? A change in US drug laws=0A>> would = end the problem in minutes--no prohibition,=0A>> no value, and a fix costs = pennies. A lot of=0A>> states have moved (slowly) towards reduced=0A>> pena= lties, even decriminalization of possession=0A>> of some drugs. Even so, pr= oposing=0A>> decriminalization would cost votes. Save a lot of money and li= ves, tho.=0A>>=0A>> 3. Need I mention the Cuban embargo? Obama will=0A>> pr= obably return travel rules to their Clinton-era=0A>> status, but he's been = pretty clear that Cuba has=0A>> to democratize to get the rest. He'd lose a= lot of votes in Florida.=0A>>=0A>> 4. Israel's economy is dependent on 12 = billion a=0A>> year in loan guarantees, without which no one=0A>> would mak= e the short-term loans that all=0A>> economies need. That's the muscle that= would get=0A>> them to the bargaining table toot sweet. Of=0A>> course it = would cost most of the Jewish vote, which is why no one's done=0A>> it.=0A>= >=0A>> I could probably come up with a few more. I'm waiting to be convince= d.=0A>>=0A>> Mark=0A>>=0A>> At 05:20 PM 11/5/2008, you wrote:=0A>>=0A>>> Hi= Stephen,=0A>>>=0A>>> I'm In Chicago, and while I didn't make it out to Gra= nt Park last night,=0A>>> today there is a real feeling of uplift in the ai= r. There's still a lot=0A>>> of=0A>>> rubble to dig out of, but it now feel= s as if we might just make it.=0A>>>=0A>>> Larry=0A>>>=0A>>> http://larryod= ean.blogspot.com=0A>>> http://larryodean.com=0A>>>=0A>>> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008= 23:20:18 -0800, Stephen Vincent >> >=0A>>> wrote:= =0A>>>=0A>>>> I don't know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's vic= tory feels=0A>>>> like we - as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have = (finally) been=0A>>>> pulled out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been= encased for 8=0A>>>> long,=0A>>>> paralytic years.=0A>>>> I am in San Fran= cisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but there=0A>>>> is=0A>>>> mus= ic and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy happy!=C2=0A>>>= > I know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now=0A>>= >>=0A>>> feels=0A>>>=0A>>>> good, good & real good.=0A>>>>=0A>>>> Whew!=0A>= >>>=0A>>>> Stephen V=0A>>>> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/=0A>>>>=0A>>>=0A= >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A>>> The Poetics List is moderated & doe= s not accept=0A>>> all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A>>> http= ://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>>>=0A>>=0A>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=0A>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. C= heck=0A>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welco= me.html=0A>>=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is mo= derated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info:= http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check g= uidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:06:46 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: For I So Loved the World . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Actually, I do think that's a good analogy for what the poet does: as poets, we are bringing new worlds into existence, new sons, even. And we so love the world that we give our begotten sons to it. Those who believe in those poems enough to want to reproduce their beauty will gain everlasting life in their own creations. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: Mark Weiss To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 8:21:17 AM Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet I'm not immune to symbolism. but I was around for the last national feel-good. It was great, desperate fun, though it didn't change nearly as much of what needed and needs to be changed as we hoped. A response "from a poet" seems to imply that those who disagree aren't. That aside, "it's the job of the poet to love the world" sounds like "so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son." Or maybe "its's the job of cheerleaders to sleep with quarterbacks." Taking part in the game of power is a form of self-seduction and maybe self-delusion. It's the job of the poet to write poems, and that comes in many forms. For me the poem is a tool of investigation, as cold and clear-eyed as I can make it. It's fine by me if others prefer to write coronation anthems. Here's a piece of world-loving Obama could practice. The US government leases vast amounts of land in the mountain west at nominal rents to ranchers. This land has been overgrazed for generations. Even so, there's not enough grass or a long enough season to bring the cattle up to markey weight, so the major roads of the high prairie are lined with feedlots which poison the air with the stench of urine and incidentally degrade the aquifers beneath them, where the cattle are force-fed corn grown in Illinois and Iowa. The overgrazed land is at the headwaters of our major rivers, into which increased, in places catastrophic, erosion drains. It also contributes to flooding. So everybody downstream is affected. The damage already done to the grazing lands is irreversible. Even with all the freebies, and ignoring the damage, it's inordinately expensive to produce beef this way, which is why killer tariffs have been imposed on free-range Argentine beef, at a cost to our diplomatic standing. One can ignore the damage done in a time of impending water shortages, but not the unlegislated tax levied on every bite of steak. The leasing of grazing land and the rent charged is largely a matter of executive branch policy, not legislation. It's not a sustainable practice. Much of it could be changed with a stroke of the executive pen. But that would anger voters in corn-growing states and in the cattle-rearing states of the mountain west, newly-democratic Colorado among them each of which have voters and two senators, largely funded by big agribusiness companies and mining and oil-and-gas interests (that's a whole other topic), whose votes are needed for things that make life easier for folks who live in areas where the population exceeds 2 per square mile. I'd maybe trade my only-begotten son for a sign of courage on that front. Mark At 04:52 AM 11/6/2008, you wrote: > Well, good heavens, send Obama your wish list. And cc Santa. > > But give me a break. ANY Democrat who didn't sleep with what was it, small animals, > farm animals would win? NO Democrat (and don't they all bed with the help and the > livestock and domesticated furry creatures and reptiles not to mention winged things and > catch of the sea, the whole surf 'n turf scene) has managed to not shoot him/herself in > the foot for years. For once a Republican gallantly stepped in to do the job (bless you, > McCain), in this case by loading his pistol with Alaska's heartbreak and sorrow, which for > once was too much for Americans to handle - such a reflection of where we're headed, > Ms. Palin is. > > The percentage of black voters wasn't much bigger than in previous years, by the way. > > He IS just another politician and we're likely to disagree with him sooner or later and > probably sooner rather than later. The markets are going to continue to crumble, the > stock exchange is withering as we speak. The big money interests that helped fund his > campaign will demand their due. Water is still water; wine, wine; in a day or two, Spike > Lee STILL won't be able to get a cab. > > The poor will STILL be with us, with their rapacious demands for food and shelter. > > It's the job of the poet to love the world. Maybe loving is the same as grieving and > maybe that's what you're doing; I grant I'm being a little hard, here, Mark (but you really > annoyed me). For me, there IS a shift in consciousness, making our job momentarily > easy - for a moment world opinion has us as a generous peoples blind to race and > religion, for crissakes - but it, loving the world AS IF it could be changed, still needs to be > done because consciousness wants to snuggle up with its old self and will, it will, unless > prodded by the fools the poets are. > > We need to gain weight so our sweaters can never fit like they used to. > > > Sarah Sarai > 4:30 a.m., 11/6 > > http://www.myspace.com/sarahsarai > http://www.mississippireview.com/2008/Vol14No4-Oct08/1404-100108-Sarai.html > http://www.ghotimag.com/Sarai.htm > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:19:59 -0800 Reply-To: dbuuck@mindspring.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Buuck Subject: BARGE & Amy Balkin @ SF Camerawork Wed Nov 12 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Join artists Amy Balkin and David Buuck for a San Francisco Nonsite Event: Wednesday, November 12 6 - 8 pm SF Camerawork 657 Mission Street, 2nd Floor Montgomery BART Station (around the corner from SFMOMA) 5 - 10 dollars sliding scale 3 dollars, students San Francisco-based artist Amy Balkin will discuss her recent work and practices as they intersect with the politics and economics of place. Balkin's projects consider the social and material landscapes we inhabit. They include *This is the Public Domain* (2001+), *Public Smog* (2004+), and the audio tour collaboration *Invisible-5* (2006). Her most recent work is *Sell Us Your Liberty, or We=E2=80=99ll Subcontract Your Death* (20= 08), a series of large-format rubbings taken from architectural signage of San Francisco Bay Area entities engaged in the local production of war. More on Balkin's projects: http://www.thisisthepublicdomain.org http://www.publicsmog.org http://invisible5.org/ David Buuck will present recent investigations by BARGE - the Bay Area Research Group in Enviro-aesthetics - with a focus on the recent Buried Treasure Island project. BARGE has organized several (de)tours around the Bay Area, investigating regional sites & spaces that are underrepresented & overlooked in more conventional touristic, commercial, & socio-political notions of place & public space. BARGE investigates how vernacular landscapes =E2=80=94 from highways & billboards to waterfronts & public utilities, from industrial lots & server farms to military bases & surveillance zones =E2=80=94 are constructed & inhabited, while also explor= ing the ways in which engaged psychogeography can provide new modes of counter-tourism & activism. More info on BARGE at http://www.davidbuuck.com/barge/index.html http://www.davidbuuck.com/barge/bti/index.htmlARGE =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:25:16 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Daniel Godston Subject: Forty Acres MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable O= Forty Acres: a poem for Barack Obama from Nobel winner Derek Walcott=0A=0AO= ut of the turmoil emerges one emblem, an engraving =E2=80=94=0Aa young Negr= o at dawn in straw hat and overalls,=0Aan emblem of impossible prophecy, a = crowd=0Adividing like the furrow which a mule has ploughed,=0Aparting for t= heir president: a field of snow-flecked cotton=0Aforty acres wide, of crows= with predictable omens=0Athat the young ploughman ignores for his unforgot= ten=0Acotton-haired ancestors, while lined on one branch, is a tense=0Acour= t of bespectacled owls and, on the field's receding rim =E2=80=94=0Aa gesti= culating scarecrow stamping with rage at him.=0AThe small plough continues = on this lined page=0Abeyond the moaning ground, the lynching tree, the torn= ado's=0Ablack vengeance,=0Aand the young ploughman feels the change in his = veins,=0Aheart, muscles, tendons,=0Atill the land lies open like a flag as = dawn's sure=0Alight streaks the field and furrows wait for the sower=0A=0AF= rom The New York Times Online=0ANovember 5, 2008=0A=0AThe West Indies poet = Derek Walcott, winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize for=0ALiterature, writes excl= usively for The Times to mark the election of Barack Obama as President=0A= =0Ahttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections= /article5088429.ece =0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 16:28:25 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081106083747.06832ae0@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > Taking part in the game of power is a form of self-seduction and maybe > self-delusion. Mark, agreed, on most...(poems do seem like interrogations of language, or spelunking the spuyten duyvil). But this text I've quoted above seems a bit inclusive -- with seemingly unfair breadth -- aren't you lumping *all of us* in with this? On 11/6/08, Mark Weiss wrote: > I'm not immune to symbolism. but I was around for the last national > feel-good. It was great, desperate fun, though it didn't change nearly as > much of what needed and needs to be changed as we hoped. > > A response "from a poet" seems to imply that those who disagree aren't. > That aside, "it's the job of the poet to love the world" sounds like "so > loved the world that he gave his only begotten son." Or maybe "its's the job > of cheerleaders to sleep with quarterbacks." >> >> Taking part in the game of power is a form of self-seduction and maybe >> self-delusion. > > It's the job of the poet to write poems, and that comes in many forms. For > me the poem is a tool of investigation, as cold and clear-eyed as I can make > it. It's fine by me if others prefer to write coronation anthems. > > Here's a piece of world-loving Obama could practice. > > The US government leases vast amounts of land in the mountain west at > nominal rents to ranchers. This land has been overgrazed for generations. > Even so, there's not enough grass or a long enough season to bring the > cattle up to markey weight, so the major roads of the high prairie are lined > with feedlots which poison the air with the stench of urine and incidentally > degrade the aquifers beneath them, where the cattle are force-fed corn grown > in Illinois and Iowa. The overgrazed land is at the headwaters of our major > rivers, into which increased, in places catastrophic, erosion drains. It > also contributes to flooding. So everybody downstream is affected. The > damage already done to the grazing lands is irreversible. > > Even with all the freebies, and ignoring the damage, it's inordinately > expensive to produce beef this way, which is why killer tariffs have been > imposed on free-range Argentine beef, at a cost to our diplomatic standing. > > One can ignore the damage done in a time of impending water shortages, but > not the unlegislated tax levied on every bite of steak. > > The leasing of grazing land and the rent charged is largely a matter of > executive branch policy, not legislation. It's not a sustainable practice. > Much of it could be changed with a stroke of the executive pen. But that > would anger voters in corn-growing states and in the cattle-rearing states > of the mountain west, newly-democratic Colorado among them each of which > have voters and two senators, largely funded by big agribusiness companies > and mining and oil-and-gas interests (that's a whole other topic), whose > votes are needed for things that make life easier for folks who live in > areas where the population exceeds 2 per square mile. > > I'd maybe trade my only-begotten son for a sign of courage on that front. > > Mark > > > > At 04:52 AM 11/6/2008, you wrote: > >> Well, good heavens, send Obama your wish list. And cc Santa. >> >> But give me a break. ANY Democrat who didn't sleep with what was it, >> small animals, >> farm animals would win? NO Democrat (and don't they all bed with the help >> and the >> livestock and domesticated furry creatures and reptiles not to mention >> winged things and >> catch of the sea, the whole surf 'n turf scene) has managed to not shoot >> him/herself in >> the foot for years. For once a Republican gallantly stepped in to do the >> job (bless you, >> McCain), in this case by loading his pistol with Alaska's heartbreak and >> sorrow, which for >> once was too much for Americans to handle - such a reflection of where >> we're headed, >> Ms. Palin is. >> >> The percentage of black voters wasn't much bigger than in previous years, >> by the way. >> >> He IS just another politician and we're likely to disagree with him sooner >> or later and >> probably sooner rather than later. The markets are going to continue to >> crumble, the >> stock exchange is withering as we speak. The big money interests that >> helped fund his >> campaign will demand their due. Water is still water; wine, wine; in a >> day or two, Spike >> Lee STILL won't be able to get a cab. >> >> The poor will STILL be with us, with their rapacious demands for food and >> shelter. >> >> It's the job of the poet to love the world. Maybe loving is the same as >> grieving and >> maybe that's what you're doing; I grant I'm being a little hard, here, >> Mark (but you really >> annoyed me). For me, there IS a shift in consciousness, making our job >> momentarily >> easy - for a moment world opinion has us as a generous peoples blind to >> race and >> religion, for crissakes - but it, loving the world AS IF it could be >> changed, still needs to be >> done because consciousness wants to snuggle up with its old self and will, >> it will, unless >> prodded by the fools the poets are. >> >> We need to gain weight so our sweaters can never fit like they used to. >> >> >> Sarah Sarai >> 4:30 a.m., 11/6 >> >> http://www.myspace.com/sarahsarai >> >> http://www.mississippireview.com/2008/Vol14No4-Oct08/1404-100108-Sarai.html >> http://www.ghotimag.com/Sarai.htm >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 16:39:39 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Paul Siegell Subject: From the Land of the World Champions! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" hiya, it's been a wild autumn so far -- don't you think? allow me to present to you the first sonnet i ever wrote: http://everseradio.com/sonnet-for-a-statuette-by-paul-siegell/ enjoy the hope, paul> http://paulsiegell.blogspot.com/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 22:19:58 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gloria Mindock Subject: New Poetry Chapbook by Cervena Barva Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cervena Barva Press is pleased to announce the publication of=20 "From Tehran To Texas" by Roger Sedarat=20 =C2=A0=20 Roger Sedarat's poetry collection, Dear Regime: Letters to the Islamic Repu= blic , won Ohio University Press's Hollis Summers Award. His poems have als= o appeared in such journals as New England Review , Poet Lore , and Iranian= .com . He is the recipient of scholarships to the Bread Loaf Writers' Confe= rence as well as a St. Botolph Society poetry grant. He teaches poetry and = translation in the MFA program at Queens College, City University of New Yo= rk.=20 Order online at http://www.thelostbookshelf.com/index.html#October30th=20 From Tehran To Texas=20 by Roger Sedarat=20 by Roger Sedarat=20 $7.00 + $3.00 S/H=20 38 pages, paper=20 Publication Date: October, 2008 =09 For information contact:=20 Gloria Mindock=20 Cervena Barva Press, Somerville, MA=20 Email: editor@cervenabarvapress.com=20 Send me______copies of " From Tehran To Texas " =C2=A0Total enclosed:=C2=A0= $________=20 Name____________________________________________________________________=20 Street____________________________________________________________________= =20 City___________________________State________________Zip____________________= =20 e-mail_________________________________Phone_____________________________= =20 Thank you.=20 Gloria Mindock, Editor and Publisher=20 Cervena Barva Press=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 23:00:33 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081106083747.06832ae0@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark=2C Just out of curiosity=2C when WAS the last national feel good? I'm 58=2C a= nd I don't remember anything at all like this in my lifetime. Unless you m= aybe voted for Reagan in 1980 . . . is that what you're referring to? SE > Date: Thu=2C 6 Nov 2008 09:21:17 -0500> From: junction@EARTHLINK.NET> Sub= ject: Re: response to mark weiss=2C from a poet> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFA= LO.EDU> > I'm not immune to symbolism. but I was around for the last nation= al > feel-good. It was great=2C desperate fun=2C though it didn't change > = nearly as much of what needed and needs to be changed as we hoped.> > A res= ponse "from a poet" seems to imply that those who disagree > aren't. That a= side=2C "it's the job of the poet to love the world" > sounds like "so love= d the world that he gave his only begotten son." > Or maybe "its's the job = of cheerleaders to sleep with quarterbacks." > Taking part in the game of p= ower is a form of self-seduction and > maybe self-delusion. It's the job of= the poet to write poems=2C and > that comes in many forms. For me the poem= is a tool of investigation=2C > as cold and clear-eyed as I can make it. I= t's fine by me if others > prefer to write coronation anthems.> > Here's a = piece of world-loving Obama could practice.> > The US government leases vas= t amounts of land in the mountain west at > nominal rents to ranchers. This= land has been overgrazed for > generations. Even so=2C there's not enough = grass or a long enough > season to bring the cattle up to markey weight=2C = so the major roads of > the high prairie are lined with feedlots which pois= on the air with > the stench of urine and incidentally degrade the aquifers= beneath > them=2C where the cattle are force-fed corn grown in Illinois an= d Iowa. > The overgrazed land is at the headwaters of our major rivers=2C i= nto > which increased=2C in places catastrophic=2C erosion drains. It also = > contributes to flooding. So everybody downstream is affected. The > damag= e already done to the grazing lands is irreversible.> > Even with all the f= reebies=2C and ignoring the damage=2C it's > inordinately expensive to prod= uce beef this way=2C which is why killer > tariffs have been imposed on fre= e-range Argentine beef=2C at a cost to > our diplomatic standing.> > One ca= n ignore the damage done in a time of impending water > shortages=2C but no= t the unlegislated tax levied on every bite of steak.> > The leasing of gra= zing land and the rent charged is largely a matter > of executive branch po= licy=2C not legislation. It's not a sustainable > practice. Much of it coul= d be changed with a stroke of the executive > pen. But that would anger vot= ers in corn-growing states and in the > cattle-rearing states of the mounta= in west=2C newly-democratic Colorado > among them each of which have voters= and two senators=2C largely funded > by big agribusiness companies and min= ing and oil-and-gas interests > (that's a whole other topic)=2C whose votes= are needed for things that > make life easier for folks who live in areas = where the population > exceeds 2 per square mile.> > I'd maybe trade my onl= y-begotten son for a sign of courage on that front.> > Mark> > > > At 04:52= AM 11/6/2008=2C you wrote:> >Well=2C good heavens=2C send Obama your wish = list. And cc Santa.> >> >But give me a break. ANY Democrat who didn't sleep= with what was > >it=2C small animals=2C> >farm animals would win? NO Democ= rat (and don't they all bed with > >the help and the> >livestock and domest= icated furry creatures and reptiles not to > >mention winged things and> >c= atch of the sea=2C the whole surf 'n turf scene) has managed to not > >shoo= t him/herself in> >the foot for years. For once a Republican gallantly step= ped in to > >do the job (bless you=2C> >McCain)=2C in this case by loading = his pistol with Alaska's heartbreak > >and sorrow=2C which for> >once was t= oo much for Americans to handle - such a reflection of > >where we're heade= d=2C> >Ms. Palin is.> >> >The percentage of black voters wasn't much bigger= than in previous > >years=2C by the way.> >> >He IS just another politicia= n and we're likely to disagree with him > >sooner or later and> >probably s= ooner rather than later. The markets are going to > >continue to crumble=2C= the> >stock exchange is withering as we speak. The big money interests > >= that helped fund his> >campaign will demand their due. Water is still water= =3B wine=2C wine=3B > >in a day or two=2C Spike> >Lee STILL won't be able t= o get a cab.> >> >The poor will STILL be with us=2C with their rapacious de= mands for > >food and shelter.> >> >It's the job of the poet to love the wo= rld. Maybe loving is the > >same as grieving and> >maybe that's what you're= doing=3B I grant I'm being a little hard=2C > >here=2C Mark (but you reall= y> >annoyed me). For me=2C there IS a shift in consciousness=2C making our = > >job momentarily> >easy - for a moment world opinion has us as a generous= peoples blind > >to race and> >religion=2C for crissakes - but it=2C lovin= g the world AS IF it could be > >changed=2C still needs to be> >done becaus= e consciousness wants to snuggle up with its old self and > >will=2C it wil= l=2C unless> >prodded by the fools the poets are.> >> >We need to gain weig= ht so our sweaters can never fit like they used to.> >> >> >Sarah Sarai> >4= :30 a.m.=2C 11/6> >> >http://www.myspace.com/sarahsarai> >http://www.missis= sippireview.com/2008/Vol14No4-Oct08/1404-100108-Sarai.html> >http://www.gho= timag.com/Sarai.htm> >> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> >The Poetics List i= s moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >guidelines & sub/unsub in= fo: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guide= lines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC=2C the Web=2C and your mobile phone with Windows= Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119462413/direct/01/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 17:55:59 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project November In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Come and celebrate these new times at The Poetry Project! Also, scroll down to check out what our friends at the Douglas Dunn Studio and Anthology Film Archives have going on. Monday, November 10, 8 PM Poets for Health Care, A Benefit Reading There is a growing movement across the U.S. to support a single-payer, national health care system that would provide health care for all. Currently, over 47 million Americans are without health insurance and another 50 million are under-insured. More than 18,000 people die every yea= r because they have no medical insurance. Since we know that so many poets have difficulty finding affordable, quality health care, The Poetry Project is pleased to host this benefit for two of the leading health-care activist groups based in New York City: Healthcare-NOW, and the Private Health Insurance Must Go Coalition. Featured poets, performers, and speakers include: David Amram, Andy Clausen, John O=B9Connor, David Henderson, Suheir Hammad, Frank Sherlock, Eliot Katz, Rachel Levitsky, Akilah Oliver, Katie Robbins, Ajamu Sankofa, Stacy Szymaszek, Rodrigo Toscano, Anne Waldman,Citizen Reno, Steven Taylor and others. Wednesday, November 12, 8 PM Isabelle Garron & Rosmarie Waldrop Isabelle Garron (b. 1968) is a younger generation French poet who teaches i= n Paris. She is the author of Qu=B9il faille (Editions Flammarion 2007), Face devant contre (Editions Flammarion 2002), D=E9ferlage II (Editions Les Cahier= s de la Seine 2002), and Le corps =E9ch=E9ant (Editions Les Cahiers de la Seine 2000). Garron has also participated as poet and/or editor in various French journals, including Petite, Action Po=E9tique, Action restreinte, Rehauts, an= d La Polygraphe. English translations of her poetry have appeared in Double Change, 1913: a journal of forms, and Verse. The chapbook Face Before Against, in Sarah Riggs=B9s translation, was released by Seeing Eye Books in 2005. Garron=B9s interest in Pierre Reverdy gave rise to a publication of La Lucarne Ovale in its original form (Th=E9=E2tre Typographique 2001). She is a regular participant with Jean Daive in the France Culture radio broadcast, "Peinture Fraiche" ("Wet Paint") on contemporary art. Garron will be joined by her translator Sarah Riggs. Rosmarie Waldrop=B9s recent poetry books are Curves to the Apple, Blindsight (New Directions), Splitting Image (Zasterle), and Love, Like Pronouns (Omnidawn). Her collected essays, Dissonance (if you are interested), is out from University of Alabama Press= . Her translation of Ulf Stolterfoht=B9s Lingos I-IX (Burning Deck) was awarded the PEN Award for Poetry in Translation, 2008. She has also translated book= s by Friederike Mayr=F6cker, Elke Erb, Oskar Pastior, Gerhard R=FChm and, from th= e French, Edmond Jab=E8s, Emmanuel Hocquard and Jacques Roubaud. An exhibition of recent large painting-poems collaborations by George Schneeman and Ron Padgett A reading by Ron Padgett Thursday, November 13 Reception at 7, reading at 8 At the Douglas Dunn Studio 541 Broadway, 3rd floor (between Prince and Spring) No charge for admission Starting this Friday at Anthology Film Archives: MAPPING A JOURNEY: THE FILMS AND VIDEOS OF ROBERT FRANK: Nov 7-16 A near complete retro of the the legendary photographer/filmmaker. A number of films feature the beats and poets such as Allen Ginsberg, Peter Orlovsky= , Gregory Corso, Taylor Mead as well as a Patti Smith, especially PULL MY DAISY, ME & MY BROTHER, LAST SUPPER, and SUMMER CANNIBALS. Check out the full schedule here: http://www.anthologyfilmarchives.org/schedule/search/search-result/?tag=3DMap= p ing+a+Journey%3A+The+Film+%26+Videos+of+Robert+Frank Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 22:33:13 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gloria Mindock Subject: Poetry and Fiction Chapbook Contest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Poetry and Fiction Chapbook Contest=20 =C2=A0=20 Accepting manuscripts November 1, 2008-January 31, 2009=20 Manuscripts postmarked after January 31st, will be returned.=20 No manuscripts will be returned.=20 =C2=A0=20 For Poetry :=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 24 pages of poetry.=C2=A0 8 pages will be added automatically to the winnin= g chapbook which will make the total pages 32 pages.=20 Include the following:=20 Title page with contact info=20 Title page with just the title=20 SASE for the announcement of the winning chapbook. Size 10 envelope only.= =20 Send no cover letter or bio.=20 Ok if poems have been published in literary journals.=C2=A0 Don't include a= cknowlegements.=20 e-mail address for receipt of manuscript=20 Winner announced March 15. 2009=20 Winner receives 25 copies and $100.00=20 $11.00 entry fee/check or money order to Cervena Barva Press=20 P.O. Box 440357=20 W. Somerville , MA 02144 -3222=20 =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 For Fiction :=20 =C2=A0=20 24 pages of fiction double-spaced.=20 8 pages will be added automatically to the winning chapbook. (front and bac= k material)=C2=A0=20 Title page with contact info=20 Title page with just the title=20 Ok if fiction has been published before.=C2=A0 Can be one story or more as = long as it doesn't=20 go over the page numbers in guideline.=20 Don't include acknowledgements.=20 Winner announced March 15, 2009=20 Winner receives 25 copies and $100.00=20 SASE for the announcement of the winning chapbook.=C2=A0 Size 10 envelope o= nly.=20 Send no cover letter or bio.=20 e-mail address for receipt of manuscript=20 $12.00 entry fee/check or money order to Cervena Barva Press=20 P.O. Box 440357=20 W. Somerville , MA 02144 -3222=20 =C2=A0=20 Deadline Jan. 31st.=C2=A0 Manuscripts past deadline will be returned.=20 All entrees receive a winning chapbook in the category they entered.=20 =C2=A0=20 Judge for both: Gloria Mindock=20 All manuscripts will be judged blind.=C2=A0 My Webmaster will take all cont= act info out of the envelopes before passing them on to me.=C2=A0 I believe= in fairness.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 I have always received high quality work in the past for the contests.=20 I look so forward to reading all the work sent to Cervena Barva Press.=20 =C2=A0=20 Thanks.=20 Gloria Mindock, Editor and Publisher=20 editor@cervenabarvapress.com=20 =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 22:28:38 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gloria Mindock Subject: Newsletter has posted MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cervena Barva Press=20 November Newsletter now online=20 Please visit:=20 http://www.cervenabarvapress.com/newsletter.htm=20 Interviews will continue next month.=C2=A0 In this issue some editors speak= out about=20 the things that make them mad when dealing with writers.=C2=A0 Most writers= are great to deal with.=20 It is the "few" that make them insane.=C2=A0 Read it in the newsletter.=20 Check out our interview archives.=C2=A0 Go to our homepage, click on interv= iews and you will find=20 those that have been interviewed.=C2=A0 Enjoy!=20 www.cervenabarvapress.com=20 16 books have been added to The Lost Bookshelf for November.=20 Check them out at: www.thelostbookshelf.com=20 While you are at it, please check out the Cervena Barva Press Chapbooks and= books.=20 Thanks,=20 Gloria Mindock, Editor and Publisher=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:35:00 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII thanks to sarah and to you alan. i have to agree with the need for joy and loving through everything. there has certainly not been enough in my life--i'd guess since i learned that bandaids aren't enough to fix the mess. many blessings for both your words. gabe Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Thu, 6 Nov 2008, Alan Sondheim wrote: > I have to say I agree with Sarah; there's definitely a sea change at work. > A lot of us have a sense of buried joy - I don't know how to put this - a > kind of disblief that the cold war warriors are on their way out, at least > for a while - no more cheney, bush, rice, and the rest of the cabal. We've > lived under a cloud for years and this is different and beautiful, if only > within the symbolic and possibly more. I _do_ mourn the setbacks to gay > rights and that has to be kept in mind (and as noted that took some of the > euphoria out of the moment) but we have to be able to open ourselves to > joy, something the left (I think myself among them) almost never does. The > right certainly has a sense of bitterness at the moment; it seems a shame > for the left to follow suit. Better to go I think with election parties > (we had one), the happiness and dancing in the streets - that's also part > of life. It's not naive and not giving in and not seeing the world with > blinders. It's being joyful. > > I certainly don't think _any_ Democrat would have won; Gore didn't or did > but with hardly a landslide and conditions had been truly evil for a long > time. This was different - at least in NY the grass-roots voting efforts > were something I'd not seen before, not to this excent, not with McGovern > or Kennedy, not with anyone. > > Perhaps the world _can_ be changed - I think it so - but not at the rate > that will satisfy a lot of people. And it has changed, and that was > reflected in Jesse Jackson's face for example which was haunting and happy > again in a way I hadn't seen before. > > I'm probably one of the more pessimistic people on Poetics, and/but this > may be a time of subtle beauty. The worst thing is to give up hope, to > proceed with business as usual - that just in fact continues business as > usual... > > - Alan > > On Thu, 6 Nov 2008, Sarah Sarai wrote: > > > Well, good heavens, send Obama your wish list. And cc Santa. > > > > But give me a break. ANY Democrat who didn't sleep with what was it, > > small animals, farm animals would win? NO Democrat (and don't they all > > bed with the help and the livestock and domesticated furry creatures and > > reptiles not to mention winged things and catch of the sea, the whole > > surf 'n turf scene) has managed to not shoot him/herself in the foot for > > years. For once a Republican gallantly stepped in to do the job (bless > > you, McCain), in this case by loading his pistol with Alaska's > > heartbreak and sorrow, which for once was too much for Americans to > > handle - such a reflection of where we're headed, Ms. Palin is. > > > > The percentage of black voters wasn't much bigger than in previous > > years, by the way. > > > > He IS just another politician and we're likely to disagree with him > > sooner or later and probably sooner rather than later. The markets are > > going to continue to crumble, the stock exchange is withering as we > > speak. The big money interests that helped fund his campaign will > > demand their due. Water is still water; wine, wine; in a day or two, > > Spike Lee STILL won't be able to get a cab. > > > > The poor will STILL be with us, with their rapacious demands for food > > and shelter. > > > > It's the job of the poet to love the world. Maybe loving is the same as > > grieving and maybe that's what you're doing; I grant I'm being a little > > hard, here, Mark (but you really annoyed me). For me, there IS a shift > > in consciousness, making our job momentarily easy - for a moment world > > opinion has us as a generous peoples blind to race and religion, for > > crissakes - but it, loving the world AS IF it could be changed, still > > needs to be done because consciousness wants to snuggle up with its old > > self and will, it will, unless prodded by the fools the poets are. > > > > We need to gain weight so our sweaters can never fit like they used to. > > > > > > Sarah Sarai > > 4:30 a.m., 11/6 > > > > http://www.myspace.com/sarahsarai > > http://www.mississippireview.com/2008/Vol14No4-Oct08/1404-100108-Sarai.html > > http://www.ghotimag.com/Sarai.htm > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ > | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: > | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 > | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org > | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:48:22 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Tobin Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a little nitpicking: >>The percentage of black voters wasn't much bigger than in previous years, by the way. Actually, it was: it went up from 11% of total voters in 2004 to 13% of total voters this year. That's an increase of almost 20%. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:02:09 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: [edliberation] Help stop the de-KLEIN of public education! Tell your story! (fwd) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_MBM3NpzrOuwxILwRStEVUQ)" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --Boundary_(ID_MBM3NpzrOuwxILwRStEVUQ) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:23:05 -0500 From: bree Dear Supporters of Public Education, Many of you have by now heard the rumor that NYC School Chancellor Joel Klein is being considered as Obama's pick for Secretary of Education. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/31/obamas-secretary-of-educa_n_13977= 5.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/04/AR200811040= 4573.html) As people committed to public education, this strikes a hard and fast blow in the euphoria that we have felt since Tuesday. But it's not too late to make our voices heard once again. Let's build on the sense of representation and democracy we have just experienced to send a clear message to the Obama Administration to STOP THE DE-KLEIN of PUBLIC EDUCATION. Community organizations across the New York City and country are teaming up with The Nation to write a communal letter and petition to the Obama Administration on why Klein is a mistake for this position. This is where we need your help! Please submit to the Nation a bullet point of a few sentences of why you think Klein's appointment would be a mistake. This should be based on your experience in education as a student, teacher, parent, organizer, etc. If appropriate, include relevant data or citations. Also include your name and affiliation/role. Here is an example: -Rather than take the advice of educational experts, Chancellor Klein repeatedly championed and implemented policies that support corporate interests and Mayor Bloomberg. For example, in 2004, Bloomberg and Klein ignored the input of parents, teachers and educational experts in their attempt to push through a high stakes third grade testing policy. Despite testimonials from educational experts and community members against this plan, Bloomberg fired and replaced members of their advisory panel that were not going to vote to pass their bill. "Although Mr. Klein said they had resigned, the three panel members said in interviews that they had been tersely dismissed and had intended to vote against the mayor's plan (New York Times, 2004)=94. Is this how we want federal education policy handled?- Bree Picower, Ph.D., Assistant Professor, New York University Particular themes that you could write about: -issues of community voice and input -corporate/private interest vs. public interest -Issues of instruction and curriculum -particular issues: high stakes testing, military recruitment, school safety policies, special ed, ELL... -union representation/ treatment -Issues around race, racism, and representation -Issues of equity -transparency and public decision making -etc. Please send your submissions to The Nation ASAP at habiba@thenation.com and cc: info@nycore.org Please also post your submission to the Education Section of Obama's Website at http://my.barackobama.com/page/s/mypolicy. This article is going online on Monday, so time is of the essence! Bree, NYCoRE/NYU =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html --Boundary_(ID_MBM3NpzrOuwxILwRStEVUQ) Content-id: Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: _______________________________________________ Network mailing list Network@lists.edliberation.org http://lists.edliberation.org/listinfo.cgi/network-edliberation.org ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html --Boundary_(ID_MBM3NpzrOuwxILwRStEVUQ)-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 23:28:01 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: bo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ah, George is just pissed his Prime Minister (Harper) is to the right of the incoming USAmerican President. When's Canada going to move into the 21st century already? Sheesh! Paul Paul E. Nelson Global Voices Radio SPLAB! American Sentences Organic Poetry Poetry Postcard Blog Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328 ________________________________ From: George Bowering To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 12:02:35 PM Subject: Re: bo Well, as I said a few months ago, finally, the differences wont be that high. We will still have a US president. I dont think he will stop the anti-Cuban blockade. I dont think he will get the bombers and shooters out of Afghanistan and Iraq. I think that before his four years are up he will bomb or invade at least one small country. I dont expect universal health care. The wall along the Mexican border will not come down. The CIA will still operate Colombia. etc It does feel a little nice, though. Geo Bowering No additives. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 10:13:19 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Nicholas Karavatos Subject: First One-Fourth Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 First One-Fourth of http://nicholaskaravatos.blogspot.com/ =20 =20 October: http://nicholaskaravatos.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html September: http://nicholaskaravatos.blogspot.com/2008_09_01_archive.html August: http://nicholaskaravatos.blogspot.com/2008_08_01_archive.html =20 =20 =20 _________________________________________________________________ Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious emai= l. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safe= ty_112008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 10:13:37 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Freind, William Joseph" Subject: New chaps from Bernadette Mayer, Joel Daily, Jamey Jones and Scott Satterwhite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable New chapbooks from brown boke: Bernadette Mayer: Two Thousand Journals Joel Daley, trans.: Distant Peaks: The Selected poems of Flung Hy Jamey Jones: The Notebook Troubled the Sleep Door Scott Satterwhite: The Li Poems $10 for the set. Checks payable to Jamey Jones, 382 Parkside Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11226 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 10:41:39 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Just to be clear on a few points. My reaction is a bit more copmplex than joy vs. bitterness. Bush and company are gone, cause enough for bonfires in the street, and we can assume a government run at least with consistent attention and a greater efficiency, a whole lot more secularism, and a degree of liberalism. But I mentioned the gay rights and affirmative action losses as a reminder that the souls of Americans may not have changed that much. Neither Gore nor Kerry were running against eight years of Bush. "Perhaps the world _can_ be changed - I think it so - but not at the rate that will satisfy a lot of people." This is the crux. Gradual change has been what we usually get in the US, at the best of times. In deep crises--the civil war, the depression--and with a government that's willing to take chances--the rate has changed. The crisis creates opportunity for boldness. The only exception I can think of was Lyndon Johnson's civil rights reforms, which grew out of the civil rights movement and the turmoil in the south, while the rest of the country was relatively calm. The problem now is that much of what faces Obama is scarcely felt on a day to day basis by most voters but nonetheless is a crisis of enormous proportions. Gradualism will be catastrophic. Even without global warming the environment world wide is at a breaking point--inadequate water supplies, terrible pollution, degradation of fertility, the emptying of the oceans, plagues, the globalization of diseases that threaten food production--while population just keeps growing (as we reassure ourselves that it may stabilize at a mere 50% higher than it is today). In the context of Americam politics even the most rational measures look like desperate choices. We need desperate choices. Obama thus far has offered some kind of health plan, nothing near what's needed, but that mostly is local, within the US. And he proposes green energy, which sounds nice and in the not-so-long-run is a lot more important. But the question in my mind is what he's willing to risk to get there--what will be needed is a scrapping, at enormous cost, of much of the energy infrastructure we have now , an infrastructure that a lot of people are committed to. A radical change in the way we produce food and manage land and ocean. And an exponential increase in international cooperation, which would be read, accurately, as an erosion of sovereignty. This against the backdrop of an educational system on the point of collapse, so that fewer and fewer have the capacity to absorb the information they need to absorb in order to be swayed to action. We're really at a tipping-point. Humans appear to have surpassed the carrying capacity of the planet, at least as currently organized. For Americans the likely downward trend will be so gradual that it won't register as a crisis, the kind that can generate major change, until way late in the game. Which means that the risks Obama will have to take are all the greater. I'd be a lot happier if he had Gore's sense of urgency and willingness to communicate it. He has to create a sense of crisis approaching panic to accomplish what needs to be done. I don't see that he has anything like that degree of ambition. So my joy is somewhat tempered. Better the result we got than the alternative. And it's nice to have a party. Now let's see what happens. Mark At 09:17 AM 11/6/2008, you wrote: >I have to say I agree with Sarah; there's definitely a sea change at >work. A lot of us have a sense of buried joy - I don't know how to >put this - a kind of disblief that the cold war warriors are on >their way out, at least for a while - no more cheney, bush, rice, >and the rest of the cabal. We've lived under a cloud for years and >this is different and beautiful, if only within the symbolic and >possibly more. I _do_ mourn the setbacks to gay rights and that has >to be kept in mind (and as noted that took some of the euphoria out >of the moment) but we have to be able to open ourselves to joy, >something the left (I think myself among them) almost never does. >The right certainly has a sense of bitterness at the moment; it >seems a shame for the left to follow suit. Better to go I think with >election parties (we had one), the happiness and dancing in the >streets - that's also part of life. It's not naive and not giving in >and not seeing the world with blinders. It's being joyful. > >I certainly don't think _any_ Democrat would have won; Gore didn't >or did but with hardly a landslide and conditions had been truly >evil for a long time. This was different - at least in NY the >grass-roots voting efforts were something I'd not seen before, not >to this excent, not with McGovern or Kennedy, not with anyone. > >Perhaps the world _can_ be changed - I think it so - but not at the >rate that will satisfy a lot of people. And it has changed, and that >was reflected in Jesse Jackson's face for example which was haunting >and happy again in a way I hadn't seen before. > >I'm probably one of the more pessimistic people on Poetics, and/but >this may be a time of subtle beauty. The worst thing is to give up >hope, to proceed with business as usual - that just in fact >continues business as usual... > >- Alan > >On Thu, 6 Nov 2008, Sarah Sarai wrote: > >>Well, good heavens, send Obama your wish list. And cc Santa. >> >>But give me a break. ANY Democrat who didn't sleep with what was >>it, small animals, farm animals would win? NO Democrat (and don't >>they all bed with the help and the livestock and domesticated furry >>creatures and reptiles not to mention winged things and catch of >>the sea, the whole surf 'n turf scene) has managed to not shoot >>him/herself in the foot for years. For once a Republican gallantly >>stepped in to do the job (bless you, McCain), in this case by >>loading his pistol with Alaska's heartbreak and sorrow, which for >>once was too much for Americans to handle - such a reflection of >>where we're headed, Ms. Palin is. >> >>The percentage of black voters wasn't much bigger than in previous >>years, by the way. >> >>He IS just another politician and we're likely to disagree with him >>sooner or later and probably sooner rather than later. The markets >>are going to continue to crumble, the stock exchange is withering >>as we speak. The big money interests that helped fund his campaign >>will demand their due. Water is still water; wine, wine; in a day >>or two, Spike Lee STILL won't be able to get a cab. >> >>The poor will STILL be with us, with their rapacious demands for >>food and shelter. >> >>It's the job of the poet to love the world. Maybe loving is the >>same as grieving and maybe that's what you're doing; I grant I'm >>being a little hard, here, Mark (but you really annoyed me). For >>me, there IS a shift in consciousness, making our job momentarily >>easy - for a moment world opinion has us as a generous peoples >>blind to race and religion, for crissakes - but it, loving the >>world AS IF it could be changed, still needs to be done because >>consciousness wants to snuggle up with its old self and will, it >>will, unless prodded by the fools the poets are. >> >>We need to gain weight so our sweaters can never fit like they used to. >> >> >>Sarah Sarai >>4:30 a.m., 11/6 >> >>http://www.myspace.com/sarahsarai >>http://www.mississippireview.com/2008/Vol14No4-Oct08/1404-100108-Sarai.html >>http://www.ghotimag.com/Sarai.htm >> >>================================== >>The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > > >| Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ >| To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: >| http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 >| Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org >| sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 09:40:34 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Fwd: Google Alert - "Alan Sondheim" (fwd) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit kewl! Alan Sondheim wrote: > nice comment by Bruce Sterling - Alan > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Google Alerts > Date: Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:18 PM > Subject: Google Alert - "Alan Sondheim" > To: sondheim@panix.com > > > Google News Alert for: *"Alan Sondheim"* > All the *Alan Sondheim* you never knew you wanted to > read > Wired News - USA > By Bruce Sterling November 05, 2008 | 3:28:19 AM (((I think every > literateur > that works on ink-on-paper should confront the work of *Alan Sondheim* > and > then *...* > See all stories on this > topic > > > ------------------------------ > This once a day Google Alert is brought to you by Google. > > Removethis > > alert. > Create another alert. > Manage your alerts. > > > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 10:51:16 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: Corretta Scott King said... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement. Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions." THIS is something the voters of California needed to think about. THIS is something Obama and Biden need to think about. The campaign against the queer community among Democrats will leave a vile taste in my mouth for many years. I will NEVER forget Biden's comments at his debate with Palin where he said that if a queer's partner is dying in the hospital that that good little queer should be allowed to visit. THANKS JOE, for ALLOWING us to be a recognized, an actual group of human beings to be recognized WHEN WE'RE DYING! But not before? I voted for him, but I don't like him! It is hard for me to imagine people with hope and Love and excitement, voting for Obama, AS THEY SHOULD HAVE FELT, AS I MYSELF FELT WHEN VOTING FOR HIM, but then, in that moment where the idea of civil rights struggle came to bear on the voting machine THEY TURN to repress another group. It's startling. It's unforgivable. People must be told when they have done something unforgivable. And I DON'T CARE if Prop 8 is overturned, The People still turned to violence in the booth, one more time. It must NOT be forgiven! CAConrad *HOMOPHOBIA and a Lexicon of Violence: ** http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html* ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 12:40:27 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Doug Holder Subject: Interview of Gary Metras of Adastra Press with Doug Holder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" GARY METRAS: FOUNDER OF THE ADASTRA PRESS ( a very young Gary Metras) GARY METRAS: FOUNDER OF THE ADASTRA PRESS BY DOUG HOLDER Gary Metras is the editor, publisher, and printer of the Adastra Press wh= ich specializes in handcrafted chapbooks of poetry. The American Book Review said of Adastra: =93As long as fine literary presses continue to handcraf= t handsome books like these from Adastra, serious readers can rest assured that the book is alive and well.=94 Metras has worked with such renowned = poets as: Thomas Lux and Ed Ochester, but has published many debut collections = as well. Metras is a well-regarded poet in his own right. Recently the Pudding Hou= se Press released his collection =93Greatest Hits: 1980-2006.=94 He has been= widely published in the small press, and is a featured poet in current issue of = the literary magazine: =93Ibbetson Street.=94 Metras has read at the Massachu= setts College of Liberal Arts, and he teaches writing at Springfield College in= Springfield, Mass. I talked with him on my Somerville Community Access TV= show: =93Poet to Poet: Writer to Writer=94 Doug Holder: You specialize in chapbooks. Why chaps as opposed to perfect= bound books? Gary Metras: I guess because my first two books were chapbooks done by sm= all presses during the Mimeograph Revolution. One of the books was published = by the Samizdat Press and the other was self published. The production quali= ty was so shoddy; I thought there had to be a better way to do it. I thought= poetry deserves to look better on the page. But still, I was very happy t= o have them out there in print. When the opportunity came about I took a ni= ght course at a local vocational school in printing and graphic arts. I wante= d to learn letterpress printing. DH: Define letterpress printing. GM: It is relief type. The actual type is pressed against the paper to be= printed=97it leaves the image, as opposed to offset=97the printing plate = never touches the paper. The printed plate transfers the image to a rubber roll= er and the roller touches the paper. Letterpress goes back to Gutenberg. DH: And what is a chapbook? Where does the name derive from? GM: The chapbook comes from the pushcart salesman in old London. That is where the name of the small press literary award the Pushcart Prize comes= from. So the pushcart street vendors used to carry these little tracts. T= hey were cheaply done on paper with a soft cover. They were all paperback formats. They were all sewn back then because stapling wasn=92t around an= d neither was glue binding. They were cheap books, or chapbooks=97they mean= the same thing. The length of a chapbook can vary according to the publisher. The standar= d length is 24 pages. Most chapbooks don=92t have a spine, they are stapled= or sewn. I do mine with a spine, it looks more elegant. And it is a better marketing tool in bookstores. The spine makes a huge difference. My chapbooks look like real books, just slimmer. I know the American Poetry Society is publishing four poetry chapbooks a year now. DH: Did you apprentice with any printers? GM: No. I am self-taught. But I use a couple of other publishers as my models. I have taken books apart to see how they are put together. I read= the old texts like Blumenthal=92s =93The Art of Printing.=94 DH: You have a number of poetry collections to your credit. Do you hold y= our poetry to the same standards as your publishing? GM: This is something that I began to realize. I was subconsciously writi= ng my own poems, based on the poems I accepted to publish. I found similar techniques: line breaks, use of metaphor, etc=85 And I was finding, and I= don=92t mean to be immodest, that I was better than most of the poets I w= as publishing, at least during the early years. I have been well published, = so I use my own poetry as the standard. DH: You said in an interview that a manuscript has to present a =93graphi= c challenge=94 GM: As a book publisher, as a person who uses metal type, when I am readi= ng a manuscript of poems, I have to find something that challenges me to ext= end my own skills. This is in terms of designing and laying out the pages in = a book. For instance: I want to know if the title interacts with the body of the poem, or the stanza formats. It took me years to realize that to be challenged graphically was part of my selection process. Two years ago I = did a book from the poet Leonard Cirino from Oregon. He had submitted to me f= or 10 years in a row. He came close and finally I picked a long poem of his.= The reason I chose it was that individual lines of his poem presented vis= ual images of what they looked like on the page. Since I can only publish one= or two titles a year, I want the books to make a graphic statement as well. GM: Name some of your favorite small press poets? DH: Alan Catlin, Michael Casey (from Lowell, Mass.), D.W. Earhart, and others. They all have a tremendous working class sensibility. GM: You are a son of a bricklayer. What did your father think of your poe= try publishing? DH: He thought it was wonderful. I worked with him on weekends when I was= growing up. He admired the sensibilities of working with your hands. We u= sed to drive around Western, Mass. and he would point out buildings and proje= cts he worked on. That impressed me as a young boy. Partly it was my desire t= o do it with books. The writer who wrote my profile in Poets and Writers magazine was amazed at my bookshelf=97three feet of Adastra Press books, representing over 29 years. DH: How big are your press runs? GM: We average 250 books per press run. DH: It is a badge of honor to be published by Adastra. GM: A young woman, a graduate student at Emerson College in Boston, asked= her professor Bill Knott, about having a book done by Adastra. Knott said= : =93If you want to publish a book do it with Adastra.=94 She did. It is ve= ry satisfying to help young poets. You know yourself, as writers, we work really hard in our loneliness to get our poems down. DH: You were an English teacher for many years. Why the need for a press?= GM: Teaching is a mental job. I just felt a lack in my life because I was= n=92t working with my hands. It was my heritage. DH: You published Tom Sexton=92s =93Clock with No Hands,=94 It deals with= the city of Lowell, Mass. Lowell has a rich literary heritage. It is the birthplac= e of Kerouac; Anne Sexton attended school there, etc=85 Why did this down-a= t-the heels- old mill city inspire the literary imagination? GM: I think the idea of physical sweat when you work for someone else to make a product, accumulates, and steals from the soul. And because it can= be so draining of the human spirit, those who have the sensibility to write about it=97write about it. --Doug Holder/Ibbetson Update/ Nov. 2008/Somerville, Mass. BY DOUG HOLDER Gary Metras is the editor, publisher, and printer of the Adastra Press wh= ich specializes in handcrafted chapbooks of poetry. The American Book Review said of Adastra: =93As long as fine literary presses continue to handcraf= t handsome books like these from Adastra, serious readers can rest assured that the book is alive and well.=94 Metras has worked with such renowned = poets as: Thomas Lux and Ed Ochester, but has published many debut collections = as well. Metras is a well-regarded poet in his own right. Recently the Pudding Hou= se Press released his collection =93Greatest Hits: 1980-2006.=94 He has been= widely published in the small press, and is a featured poet in current issue of = the literary magazine: =93Ibbetson Street.=94 Metras has read at the Massachu= setts College of Liberal Arts, and he teaches writing at Springfield College in= Springfield, Mass. I talked with him on my Somerville Community Access TV= show: =93Poet to Poet: Writer to Writer=94 Doug Holder: You specialize in chapbooks. Why chaps as opposed to perfect= bound books? Gary Metras: I guess because my first two books were chapbooks done by sm= all presses during the Mimeograph Revolution. One of the books was published = by the Samizdat Press and the other was self published. The production quali= ty was so shoddy; I thought there had to be a better way to do it. I thought= poetry deserves to look better on the page. But still, I was very happy t= o have them out there in print. When the opportunity came about I took a ni= ght course at a local vocational school in printing and graphic arts. I wante= d to learn letterpress printing. DH: Define letterpress printing. GM: It is relief type. The actual type is pressed against the paper to be= printed=97it leaves the image, as opposed to offset=97the printing plate = never touches the paper. The printed plate transfers the image to a rubber roll= er and the roller touches the paper. Letterpress goes back to Gutenberg. DH: And what is a chapbook? Where does the name derive from? GM: The chapbook comes from the pushcart salesman in old London. That is where the name of the small press literary award the Pushcart Prize comes= from. So the pushcart street vendors used to carry these little tracts. T= hey were cheaply done on paper with a soft cover. They were all paperback formats. They were all sewn back then because stapling wasn=92t around an= d neither was glue binding. They were cheap books, or chapbooks=97they mean= the same thing. The length of a chapbook can vary according to the publisher. The standar= d length is 24 pages. Most chapbooks don=92t have a spine, they are stapled= or sewn. I do mine with a spine, it looks more elegant. And it is a better marketing tool in bookstores. The spine makes a huge difference. My chapbooks look like real books, just slimmer. I know the American Poetry Society is publishing four poetry chapbooks a year now. DH: Did you apprentice with any printers? GM: No. I am self-taught. But I use a couple of other publishers as my models. I have taken books apart to see how they are put together. I read= the old texts like Blumenthal=92s =93The Art of Printing.=94 DH: You have a number of poetry collections to your credit. Do you hold y= our poetry to the same standards as your publishing? GM: This is something that I began to realize. I was subconsciously writi= ng my own poems, based on the poems I accepted to publish. I found similar techniques: line breaks, use of metaphor, etc=85 And I was finding, and I= don=92t mean to be immodest, that I was better than most of the poets I w= as publishing, at least during the early years. I have been well published, = so I use my own poetry as the standard. DH: You said in an interview that a manuscript has to present a =93graphi= c challenge=94 GM: As a book publisher, as a person who uses metal type, when I am readi= ng a manuscript of poems, I have to find something that challenges me to ext= end my own skills. This is in terms of designing and laying out the pages in = a book. For instance: I want to know if the title interacts with the body of the poem, or the stanza formats. It took me years to realize that to be challenged graphically was part of my selection process. Two years ago I = did a book from the poet Leonard Cirino from Oregon. He had submitted to me f= or 10 years in a row. He came close and finally I picked a long poem of his.= The reason I chose it was that individual lines of his poem presented vis= ual images of what they looked like on the page. Since I can only publish one= or two titles a year, I want the books to make a graphic statement as well. GM: Name some of your favorite small press poets? DH: Alan Catlin, Michael Casey (from Lowell, Mass.), D.W. Earhart, and others. They all have a tremendous working class sensibility. GM: You are a son of a bricklayer. What did your father think of your poe= try publishing? DH: He thought it was wonderful. I worked with him on weekends when I was= growing up. He admired the sensibilities of working with your hands. We u= sed to drive around Western, Mass. and he would point out buildings and proje= cts he worked on. That impressed me as a young boy. Partly it was my desire t= o do it with books. The writer who wrote my profile in Poets and Writers magazine was amazed at my bookshelf=97three feet of Adastra Press books, representing over 29 years. DH: How big are your press runs? GM: We average 250 books per press run. DH: It is a badge of honor to be published by Adastra. GM: A young woman, a graduate student at Emerson College in Boston, asked= her professor Bill Knott, about having a book done by Adastra. Knott said= : =93If you want to publish a book do it with Adastra.=94 She did. It is ve= ry satisfying to help young poets. You know yourself, as writers, we work really hard in our loneliness to get our poems down. DH: You were an English teacher for many years. Why the need for a press?= GM: Teaching is a mental job. I just felt a lack in my life because I was= n=92t working with my hands. It was my heritage. DH: You published Tom Sexton=92s =93Clock with No Hands,=94 It deals with= the city of Lowell, Mass. Lowell has a rich literary heritage. It is the birthplac= e of Kerouac; Anne Sexton attended school there, etc=85 Why did this down-a= t-the heels- old mill city inspire the literary imagination? GM: I think the idea of physical sweat when you work for someone else to make a product, accumulates, and steals from the soul. And because it can= be so draining of the human spirit, those who have the sensibility to write about it=97write about it. --Doug Holder/Ibbetson Update/ Nov. 2008/Somerville, Mass. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 09:46:38 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Donna Kuhn Subject: if alan has hope i have hope Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed i was thinking that it is exciting to see alan, who can be sad and dark at times (in a brave and beautiful way), to be speaking of joy and hope. as a fellow former new yorker where cynicism can rule, i keep holding on the to these words i hear over and over: i have never seen anything like this before. quite a few of these people are older than me. so if only for months, weeks, days, hours--please let us bask in some glory, in the images of those black and white faces crying and cheering together, in a park that was home to police brutality. change seems more possible when fueled with hope and joy that seemed all but dead in this country. what was alive (if you can call it alive) was coma-like depression, shame, hopelessness. hopefully the gay community will have their day of triumph, their happy tears. this makes that seem possible as well. Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:17:37 -0500 From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet I have to say I agree with Sarah; there's definitely a sea change at work. A lot of us have a sense of buried joy - I don't know how to put this - a kind of disblief that the cold war warriors are on their way out, at least for a while - no more cheney, bush, rice, and the rest of the cabal. We've lived under a cloud for years and this is different and beautiful, if only within the symbolic and possibly more. I _do_ mourn the setbacks to gay rights and that has to be kept in mind (and as noted that took some of the euphoria out of the moment) but we have to be able to open ourselves to joy, something the left (I think myself among them) almost never does. The right certainly has a sense of bitterness at the moment; it seems a shame for the left to follow suit. Better to go I think with election parties (we had one), the happiness and dancing in the streets - that's also part of life. It's not naive and not giving in and not seeing the world with blinders. It's being joyful. I certainly don't think _any_ Democrat would have won; Gore didn't or did but with hardly a landslide and conditions had been truly evil for a long time. This was different - at least in NY the grass-roots voting efforts were something I'd not seen before, not to this excent, not with McGovern or Kennedy, not with anyone. Perhaps the world _can_ be changed - I think it so - but not at the rate that will satisfy a lot of people. And it has changed, and that was reflected in Jesse Jackson's face for example which was haunting and happy again in a way I hadn't seen before. I'm probably one of the more pessimistic people on Poetics, and/but this may be a time of subtle beauty. The worst thing is to give up hope, to proceed with business as usual - that just in fact continues business as usual... - Alan http://digitalaardvarks.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 11:03:27 -0800 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Subject: James Liddy, 1934 - 2008 Comments: To: UK POETRY Comments: cc: "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" , David Lloyd , Trevor Joyce , Ron Silliman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those out of the Ron Silliman loop,=A0=20 James Liddy, the long resident of America, Irish poet, has passed away. (19= 34 - 2008). He came to teach at San Francisco State College in the late Sixties where I= knew him, partly as a neighbor. He held classes at his home during the SF = State Strike - in which I would occasionally sit-in. It was the place where= I first met Ron Silliman, a student then.=20 James was totally enamored of the fresh legacy of Jack Spicer (d. 1965) whi= le becoming good friend of Graham Mackintosh, the White Rabbit Press printe= r and close associate of Spicer.=A0=A0=A0 Sadly, or to the benefit of Milwa= ukee, James left the City in the 70's. A warm, lively gregarious spirit tot= ally devoted to the realms of Poetry=A0 - much devoted to his friends - muc= h to be missed, I am sure. Stephen Vincent =A0http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 15:08:33 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sarah wrote: "The poor will STILL be with us, with their rapacious demands for food and shelter." Yes, and The rich will STILL be with us, with their rapacious demands for EVERYTHING, leaving others with nothing. You say you're being "hard" Sarah, but I say that's an understatement. And frankly I don't like being told what I'm SUPPOSED TO DO as a poet, not one bit. Love the world? Is THAT the goal of poetry, really? That's a tidy little box for us, isn't it? I voted for Obama, but I don't like him in many ways. From his speeches he proves to want to extend Clinton's terror against the poor, maintain the absence of safety and care for those who need it most. In my most hopeful side I hope many of the imperious things he said were to get elected, and the he will in turn actually act as a man of conscience, like I hope him to be. But as Nader points out, Obama has "indentured" himself to corporate action and benefit, much like Clinton before him. The biggest problem is that the Republicans were so rotten to Obama that we focus on their lies and disinformation about him, instead of really listening to what he says about Welfare Reform, for instance. He was pretty quick to hand over the dough when the Dow went south. It was a rotten trick to play, playing at The Most critical time, but they played it out, and they won, yet again. It feels like a reality TV show of the most decadent, most well hammered orchestration. The Good, and The Bad, and The Bad makes everyone angry about what he says about The Good, and then The Good pushes back and we FEEL for him, and vote for him, even though he artfully states, so eloquently states, that it's simply not a good idea to help the poor. But he says he feels badly for them, which counts, right? I voted for Obama because he was against the war. If Hillary Clinton had won the nomination I would have voted for Nader and apologized to no one. I will NEVER vote for someone who voted for the Nazi occupation of Iraq. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 17:11:24 -0500 Reply-To: mtcross@buffalo.edu Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael T Cross Subject: ON: Contemporary Practice #1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What=E2=80=99s going ON? What=E2=80=99s 21st Century poetry all about? ON i= s a poetics journal devoted to contemporaries=E2=80=99 writing, a location = for=20 essay and exchanges featuring over twenty essays written by and about conte= mporary poets. The contributors make legible unique=20 aesthetic practices in relation to larger tendencies, histories and concept= s.=20 =20 ON #1 features: Taylor Brady on Yedda Morrison, Brandon Brown on Dana Ward,= Jason Christie on Michael deBeyer, CA Conrad and=20 Brenda Iijima in conversation, Michael Cross on Thom Donovan, Alan Gilbert = on DJ/Rupture, Rob Halpern on Taylor Brady, Jen Hofer=20 and Sawako Nakayasu in conversation, Andrew Levy on Arakawa and Gins, Edric= Mesmer on Lauren Shufran and Mark Dickinson, Thom=20 Donovan on Brenda Iijima, Tenney Nathanson on Beverly Dahlen, Richard Owens= on Dale Smith, Tim Peterson on kari edwards, Eli=20 Drabman on Michael Cross, Andrew Rippeon on C.J. Martin, Kyle Schlesinger o= n Emily McVarish, Jonathan Skinner on Julie Patton,=20 Dale Smith on Hoa Nguyen, Suzanne Stein and Alli Warren in conversation, an= d Katie Yates on Belle Gironda. =20 ON is currently available for purchase at Small Press Distribution , at our= =20 website , and at the homepages of both Cuneiform and=20 Atticus/Finch . How do we address our own writing and that of our contempo= raries? Find out what=E2=80=99s=20 going on, and spread the word to your peers, colleagues, and students.=20 Michael Cross, Thom Donovan, and Kyle Schlesinger ON eds. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 18:03:48 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Amanda Earl Subject: Re: Hallelujah! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed i hate getting embroiled in politics on a poetry list serve, but i have to say that as long as Obama has said he is against gay marriage and States like California actually are allowed to repeal gay marriage or disallow it thru these weirdo propositions, i feel uncomfortable with any kind of celebration. our own current crappy government here in Canada is anti gay everything, but luckily, in the minority and hampered by our Supreme Court (shows you that miracles can happen). Amanda in Ontario, Canada where you can come and get married if you're gay or lesbian or straight. At 03:33 PM 06/11/2008, you wrote: >Thank you Sharon/David. This historic moment is like a moonrock to me, >where, like so many others, I wanted to leave my humble fingerpints. > >Aryanil ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 16:49:16 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Forty Acres MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not to be a wet blanket, but does anyone notice the irony in the fact that = Obama is not a descendent of the people Walcott is talking about in this po= em? Some lovely ideas in the images, though.=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A_= _______________________________=0AFrom: Daniel Godston =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 = 3:25:16 PM=0ASubject: Forty Acres=0A=0AO=0AForty Acres: a poem for Barack O= bama from Nobel winner Derek Walcott=0A=0AOut of the turmoil emerges one em= blem, an engraving =97=0Aa young Negro at dawn in straw hat and overalls,= =0Aan emblem of impossible prophecy, a crowd=0Adividing like the furrow whi= ch a mule has ploughed,=0Aparting for their president: a field of snow-flec= ked cotton=0Aforty acres wide, of crows with predictable omens=0Athat the y= oung ploughman ignores for his unforgotten=0Acotton-haired ancestors, while= lined on one branch, is a tense=0Acourt of bespectacled owls and, on the f= ield's receding rim =97=0Aa gesticulating scarecrow stamping with rage at h= im.=0AThe small plough continues on this lined page=0Abeyond the moaning gr= ound, the lynching tree, the tornado's=0Ablack vengeance,=0Aand the young p= loughman feels the change in his veins,=0Aheart, muscles, tendons,=0Atill t= he land lies open like a flag as dawn's sure=0Alight streaks the field and = furrows wait for the sower=0A=0AFrom The New York Times Online=0ANovember 5= , 2008=0A=0AThe West Indies poet Derek Walcott, winner of the 1992 Nobel Pr= ize for=0ALiterature, writes exclusively for The Times to mark the election= of Barack Obama as President=0A=0Ahttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/wo= rld/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5088429.ece =0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts= .. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome= ..html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 17:30:59 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Gross. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gross --->=A0=A0 http://amyking.org/ _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 19:21:50 +0000 Reply-To: vertor@gmail.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Trevor Joyce Subject: Re: James Liddy, 1934 - 2008 Comments: To: steph484@pacbell.net Comments: cc: UK POETRY , "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" , David Lloyd , Ron Silliman In-Reply-To: <200176.81157.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It was due to James' urging that New Writers' Press printed a small, pirated, chapbook of Spicer's *Billy the Kid* (in '68, I think). The title of NWP's house journal, *The Lace Curtain*, was also down to his suggestion. It always amused him. I didn't ever know him closely - I recall our last conversation over a pint in Leeson Street in '76, where it became quickly evident that neither of us really got what the other was at - but I was always aware of his very practical generosity towards young poets and those on hard times. I'm sorry to hear that he's gone. Trevor On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Stephen Vincent wrote: > For those out of the Ron Silliman loop, > James Liddy, the long resident of America, Irish poet, has passed away. > (1934 - 2008). > He came to teach at San Francisco State College in the late Sixties where I > knew him, partly as a neighbor. He held classes at his home during the SF > State Strike - in which I would occasionally sit-in. It was the place where > I first met Ron Silliman, a student then. > James was totally enamored of the fresh legacy of Jack Spicer (d. 1965) > while becoming good friend of Graham Mackintosh, the White Rabbit Press > printer and close associate of Spicer. Sadly, or to the benefit of > Milwaukee, James left the City in the 70's. A warm, lively gregarious spirit > totally devoted to the realms of Poetry - much devoted to his friends - > much to be missed, I am sure. > > Stephen Vincent > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 21:27:24 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I was of course referring to the sixties, which despite everything was a time of an outpouring of great joy, a time when many of us felt that with just a bit more work essential changes could be achieved. Do you really think that anyone who isn't singing in the street right now is your enemy? Didn't you notice that my skepticism about Obama is from the left? If it hasn't been obvious, I'd love to be proven spectacularly wrong. Ryan: I was saying something quite different about poetry. Of course it involves an interrogation of language, but also of all communication and all perception. It's how I home in on that elusive thing, the real world, and ways of relating to it. Mark At 06:00 PM 11/6/2008, you wrote: >Mark, >Just out of curiosity, when WAS the last national feel good? I'm >58, and I don't remember anything at all like this in my >lifetime. Unless you maybe voted for Reagan in 1980 . . . is that >what you're referring to? >SE > > Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:21:17 -0500> From: > junction@EARTHLINK.NET> Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a > poet> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > I'm not immune to > symbolism. but I was around for the last national > feel-good. It > was great, desperate fun, though it didn't change > nearly as much > of what needed and needs to be changed as we hoped.> > A response > "from a poet" seems to imply that those who disagree > aren't. That > aside, "it's the job of the poet to love the world" > sounds like > "so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son." > Or maybe > "its's the job of cheerleaders to sleep with quarterbacks." > > Taking part in the game of power is a form of self-seduction and > > maybe self-delusion. It's the job of the poet to write poems, and > > that comes in many forms. For me the poem is a tool of > investigation, > as cold and clear-eyed as I can make it. It's fine > by me if others > prefer to write coronation anthems.> > Here's a > piece of world-loving Obama could practice.> > The US government > leases vast amounts of land in the mountain west at > nominal rents > to ranchers. This land has been overgrazed for > generations. Even > so, there's not enough grass or a long enough > season to bring the > cattle up to markey weight, so the major roads of > the high > prairie are lined with feedlots which poison the air with > the > stench of urine and incidentally degrade the aquifers beneath > > them, where the cattle are force-fed corn grown in Illinois and > Iowa. > The overgrazed land is at the headwaters of our major > rivers, into > which increased, in places catastrophic, erosion > drains. It also > contributes to flooding. So everybody downstream > is affected. The > damage already done to the grazing lands is > irreversible.> > Even with all the freebies, and ignoring the > damage, it's > inordinately expensive to produce beef this way, > which is why killer > tariffs have been imposed on free-range > Argentine beef, at a cost to > our diplomatic standing.> > One can > ignore the damage done in a time of impending water > shortages, > but not the unlegislated tax levied on every bite of steak.> > The > leasing of grazing land and the rent charged is largely a matter > > of executive branch policy, not legislation. It's not a > sustainable > practice. Much of it could be changed with a stroke > of the executive > pen. But that would anger voters in corn-growing > states and in the > cattle-rearing states of the mountain west, > newly-democratic Colorado > among them each of which have voters > and two senators, largely funded > by big agribusiness companies > and mining and oil-and-gas interests > (that's a whole other > topic), whose votes are needed for things that > make life easier > for folks who live in areas where the population > exceeds 2 per > square mile.> > I'd maybe trade my only-begotten son for a sign of > courage on that front.> > Mark> > > > At 04:52 AM 11/6/2008, you > wrote:> >Well, good heavens, send Obama your wish list. And cc > Santa.> >> >But give me a break. ANY Democrat who didn't sleep with > what was > >it, small animals,> >farm animals would win? NO > Democrat (and don't they all bed with > >the help and > the> >livestock and domesticated furry creatures and reptiles not > to > >mention winged things and> >catch of the sea, the whole surf > 'n turf scene) has managed to not > >shoot him/herself in> >the > foot for years. For once a Republican gallantly stepped in to > >do > the job (bless you,> >McCain), in this case by loading his pistol > with Alaska's heartbreak > >and sorrow, which for> >once was too > much for Americans to handle - such a reflection of > >where we're > headed,> >Ms. Palin is.> >> >The percentage of black voters wasn't > much bigger than in previous > >years, by the way.> >> >He IS just > another politician and we're likely to disagree with him > >sooner > or later and> >probably sooner rather than later. The markets are > going to > >continue to crumble, the> >stock exchange is withering > as we speak. The big money interests > >that helped fund > his> >campaign will demand their due. Water is still water; wine, > wine; > >in a day or two, Spike> >Lee STILL won't be able to get a > cab.> >> >The poor will STILL be with us, with their rapacious > demands for > >food and shelter.> >> >It's the job of the poet to > love the world. Maybe loving is the > >same as grieving and> >maybe > that's what you're doing; I grant I'm being a little hard, > >here, > Mark (but you really> >annoyed me). For me, there IS a shift in > consciousness, making our > >job momentarily> >easy - for a moment > world opinion has us as a generous peoples blind > >to race > and> >religion, for crissakes - but it, loving the world AS IF it > could be > >changed, still needs to be> >done because consciousness > wants to snuggle up with its old self and > >will, it will, > unless> >prodded by the fools the poets are.> >> >We need to gain > weight so our sweaters can never fit like they used > to.> >> >> >Sarah Sarai> >4:30 a.m., > 11/6> >> >http://www.myspace.com/sarahsarai> >http://www.mississippi > review.com/2008/Vol14No4-Oct08/1404-100108-Sarai.html> >http://www.g > hotimag.com/Sarai.htm> >> >==================================> >The > Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > >guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html> > > ==================================> The Poetics List is moderated & > does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >_________________________________________________________________ >Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live >http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119462413/direct/01/ >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 19:38:00 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii YOur statement only makes sense if there is a fixed pie, meaning if one person gets more, another gets less (also known as a zero-sum game). That's not even remotely how the real world works. In the real world, free exchange benefits both parties. Thus, wealth is created. The rich get richer because the engage in more trades than others. But that is only in a market system. In a government-controlled system, the rich get richer through theft, in which case, your model is correct. In a market economy, the richer the rich get, the richer the poor get. In a government-controlled economy, the richer those in government get, the poorer everyone else gets. This is how the real world works, and not just based on economic models, but on the evidence of history. As for your poetry, love the world or hate the world, that's up to you. It makes little sense to give a gift to one you hate, though. Of course, gifts are something of value, intended to benefit the one they are given to. What are your poems, then? Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: CA Conrad To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 2:08:33 PM Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet Sarah wrote: "The poor will STILL be with us, with their rapacious demands for food and shelter." Yes, and The rich will STILL be with us, with their rapacious demands for EVERYTHING, leaving others with nothing. You say you're being "hard" Sarah, but I say that's an understatement. And frankly I don't like being told what I'm SUPPOSED TO DO as a poet, not one bit. Love the world? Is THAT the goal of poetry, really? That's a tidy little box for us, isn't it? I voted for Obama, but I don't like him in many ways. From his speeches he proves to want to extend Clinton's terror against the poor, maintain the absence of safety and care for those who need it most. In my most hopeful side I hope many of the imperious things he said were to get elected, and the he will in turn actually act as a man of conscience, like I hope him to be. But as Nader points out, Obama has "indentured" himself to corporate action and benefit, much like Clinton before him. The biggest problem is that the Republicans were so rotten to Obama that we focus on their lies and disinformation about him, instead of really listening to what he says about Welfare Reform, for instance. He was pretty quick to hand over the dough when the Dow went south. It was a rotten trick to play, playing at The Most critical time, but they played it out, and they won, yet again. It feels like a reality TV show of the most decadent, most well hammered orchestration. The Good, and The Bad, and The Bad makes everyone angry about what he says about The Good, and then The Good pushes back and we FEEL for him, and vote for him, even though he artfully states, so eloquently states, that it's simply not a good idea to help the poor. But he says he feels badly for them, which counts, right? I voted for Obama because he was against the war. If Hillary Clinton had won the nomination I would have voted for Nader and apologized to no one. I will NEVER vote for someone who voted for the Nazi occupation of Iraq. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 19:46:33 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Corretta Scott King said... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've thought about this, and the outcome should not be all that shocking to those who understand the world views of African-Americans and Hispanics. The civil rights movement is applicable only to those whose attributes are an accident of birth. Everyone would agree that one does not choose what race one is born as, but for many, especially in the African-American and Hispanic communities, which are very religiously conservative, homosexuality is a choice. From that perspective, it makes sense that one would not necessarily support civil rights for a group who chose to be who they are. Of course, I do not think choice comes into the matter when it comes to sexual orientation, and I do not find it reasonable to expect people to go against their fundamental natures. Throw in the fact that I don't think it's the government's business to have a say about who gets married, and I'm all for a more open definition of marriage which includes same-sex unions. If homosexuals are looking for a political party favorable to their issues, they should all join the Libertarian Party. Besides, the LP is the only party that supports the naturally-occurring free market economy, meaning they are much more prone to have positions reflecting reality anyway. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: CA Conrad To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 9:51:16 AM Subject: Corretta Scott King said... "Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement. Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions." THIS is something the voters of California needed to think about. THIS is something Obama and Biden need to think about. The campaign against the queer community among Democrats will leave a vile taste in my mouth for many years. I will NEVER forget Biden's comments at his debate with Palin where he said that if a queer's partner is dying in the hospital that that good little queer should be allowed to visit. THANKS JOE, for ALLOWING us to be a recognized, an actual group of human beings to be recognized WHEN WE'RE DYING! But not before? I voted for him, but I don't like him! It is hard for me to imagine people with hope and Love and excitement, voting for Obama, AS THEY SHOULD HAVE FELT, AS I MYSELF FELT WHEN VOTING FOR HIM, but then, in that moment where the idea of civil rights struggle came to bear on the voting machine THEY TURN to repress another group. It's startling. It's unforgivable. People must be told when they have done something unforgivable. And I DON'T CARE if Prop 8 is overturned, The People still turned to violence in the booth, one more time. It must NOT be forgiven! CAConrad *HOMOPHOBIA and a Lexicon of Violence: ** http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html* ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 19:34:18 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Forty Acres In-Reply-To: <511072.93818.qm@web46213.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE i have been thinking about that quite a bit, yes. it's not his genealogy at all. son of an african chief, went to ruling class school in hawaii... all adds to the dampness of my celebration. small bits of hope keep poking me in the ribs but not very hard. g Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Fri, 7 Nov 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > Not to be a wet blanket, but does anyone notice the irony in the fact tha= t Obama is not a descendent of the people Walcott is talking about in this = poem? Some lovely ideas in the images, though. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: Daniel Godston To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 3:25:16 PM Subject: Forty Acres O Forty Acres: a poem for Barack Obama from Nobel winner Derek Walcott Out of the turmoil emerges one emblem, an engraving =97 a young Negro at dawn in straw hat and overalls, an emblem of impossible prophecy, a crowd dividing like the furrow which a mule has ploughed, parting for their president: a field of snow-flecked cotton forty acres wide, of crows with predictable omens that the young ploughman ignores for his unforgotten cotton-haired ancestors, while lined on one branch, is a tense court of bespectacled owls and, on the field's receding rim =97 a gesticulating scarecrow stamping with rage at him. The small plough continues on this lined page beyond the moaning ground, the lynching tree, the tornado's black vengeance, and the young ploughman feels the change in his veins, heart, muscles, tendons, till the land lies open like a flag as dawn's sure light streaks the field and furrows wait for the sower From=20The New York Times Online November 5, 2008 The West Indies poet Derek Walcott, winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize for Literature, writes exclusively for The Times to mark the election of Barack= Obama as President http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/ar= ticle5088429.ece =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check guideline= s & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 00:28:24 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0811061256g2a655eeak3c1d5ad2ff4d83cb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Yes re: the power of symbols; but these at least for me must be simultan- eously denied, thinking of tantric generation deity stage for example. I was thinking of this in regard of the Other, that evil might just be objectification and control, aligned and misaligned. If I objectify than is demarcated for control, even if control is only hell-raising. Objectification is necessarily reductive, a form of potential well; con- trol is the exchange-value and/or functionalism of the object. It's an arena of danger; objectification resonates also with the organism doing it, and control likewise restricts the controller. This isn't a master- slave dialectic (which I find absurd) but in fact the reification of the master, who is hardened into position and positionality - a kind of resonance is at work. So symbolic capital tends towards these moments or processes, inheres within them; what is objectified is also symbolized, and control is the playing out and/or accrual of capital. - Alan On Thu, 6 Nov 2008, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > Alan, > > It is great to see you gushing. The truth is I agree with you. My son and I > were celebrating drinking the beer he had brought from his visit to Maine > watching T.V. I couldn't still believe it when Pennsylvania went to Obama. > We learnt of Obama's projection as the next president while we were watching > Comedy Central (my son's choice). Suddenly John Stewart wrote something on a > board and turned it to the audience. It announced Obama as the winner. Wow! > Then Stewart, Colbert and the whole crew left the staged, went up the stairs > of the building to the roof. It was daylight. The, I think Stewart asked, > "is this way the way the world looks without Bush, then, the scene showed a > deer gamboling in the field... It felt like a miracle, not very different > from the way you (and I) are feeling today. > > It was a miracle. Millions and millions of white Americans entered the > privacy of the voting booth and chose a black man for president. > > Alan, do you remember the exchange you and I had on the list after Kerrey's > defeat? We agreed that it was foolish to deny or look down upon the > religious feeling among the population in the United States. Are your > comments on the power of symbols about the same thing? > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Alan Sondheim wrote: > >> I have to say I agree with Sarah; there's definitely a sea change at work. >> A lot of us have a sense of buried joy - I don't know how to put this - a >> kind of disblief that the cold war warriors are on their way out, at least >> for a while - no more cheney, bush, rice, and the rest of the cabal. We've >> lived under a cloud for years and this is different and beautiful, if only >> within the symbolic and possibly more. I _do_ mourn the setbacks to gay >> rights and that has to be kept in mind (and as noted that took some of the >> euphoria out of the moment) but we have to be able to open ourselves to joy, >> something the left (I think myself among them) almost never does. The right >> certainly has a sense of bitterness at the moment; it seems a shame for the >> left to follow suit. Better to go I think with election parties (we had >> one), the happiness and dancing in the streets - that's also part of life. >> It's not naive and not giving in and not seeing the world with blinders. >> It's being joyful. >> >> I certainly don't think _any_ Democrat would have won; Gore didn't or did >> but with hardly a landslide and conditions had been truly evil for a long >> time. This was different - at least in NY the grass-roots voting efforts >> were something I'd not seen before, not to this excent, not with McGovern or >> Kennedy, not with anyone. >> >> Perhaps the world _can_ be changed - I think it so - but not at the rate >> that will satisfy a lot of people. And it has changed, and that was >> reflected in Jesse Jackson's face for example which was haunting and happy >> again in a way I hadn't seen before. >> >> I'm probably one of the more pessimistic people on Poetics, and/but this >> may be a time of subtle beauty. The worst thing is to give up hope, to >> proceed with business as usual - that just in fact continues business as >> usual... >> >> - Alan >> >> >> On Thu, 6 Nov 2008, Sarah Sarai wrote: >> >> Well, good heavens, send Obama your wish list. And cc Santa. >>> >>> But give me a break. ANY Democrat who didn't sleep with what was it, >>> small animals, farm animals would win? NO Democrat (and don't they all bed >>> with the help and the livestock and domesticated furry creatures and >>> reptiles not to mention winged things and catch of the sea, the whole surf >>> 'n turf scene) has managed to not shoot him/herself in the foot for years. >>> For once a Republican gallantly stepped in to do the job (bless you, >>> McCain), in this case by loading his pistol with Alaska's heartbreak and >>> sorrow, which for once was too much for Americans to handle - such a >>> reflection of where we're headed, Ms. Palin is. >>> >>> The percentage of black voters wasn't much bigger than in previous years, >>> by the way. >>> >>> He IS just another politician and we're likely to disagree with him sooner >>> or later and probably sooner rather than later. The markets are going to >>> continue to crumble, the stock exchange is withering as we speak. The big >>> money interests that helped fund his campaign will demand their due. Water >>> is still water; wine, wine; in a day or two, Spike Lee STILL won't be able >>> to get a cab. >>> >>> The poor will STILL be with us, with their rapacious demands for food and >>> shelter. >>> >>> It's the job of the poet to love the world. Maybe loving is the same as >>> grieving and maybe that's what you're doing; I grant I'm being a little >>> hard, here, Mark (but you really annoyed me). For me, there IS a shift in >>> consciousness, making our job momentarily easy - for a moment world opinion >>> has us as a generous peoples blind to race and religion, for crissakes - but >>> it, loving the world AS IF it could be changed, still needs to be done >>> because consciousness wants to snuggle up with its old self and will, it >>> will, unless prodded by the fools the poets are. >>> >>> We need to gain weight so our sweaters can never fit like they used to. >>> >>> >>> Sarah Sarai >>> 4:30 a.m., 11/6 >>> >>> http://www.myspace.com/sarahsarai >>> >>> http://www.mississippireview.com/2008/Vol14No4-Oct08/1404-100108-Sarai.html >>> http://www.ghotimag.com/Sarai.htm >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ >> | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: >> | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 >> | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org >> | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 01:04:07 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley In-Reply-To: <239843.89008.qm@web46201.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline > > the corrupt socialist government of Mexico What the ducks? Troy, I don't know whether to laugh at this comment or just ask you to explain to substantiate this. I do agree that the US should foster market reforms in Mexico (the first way our govt. can do this is by killing the street price of drugs, as you pointed out. Any other ideas? I'm curious (as I mentioned) because I hear, GORBY, tear down this wall, and it's always unclear what the utterer means to replace the wall with... Granted, it should not have been built, but what's happens to fill the spac= e left by the wall? On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Replace the wall with a place for migrant workers to get registration and > worker visas. The vast majority of illegals just want to work. We should > have such places on this side of the border because the corrupt socialist > government of Mexico blocks migrant workers form getting such visas. They > are quite restrictive win their policies that way. The U.S. should in tur= n > encourage market reforms in Mexico so that people won't be forced to leav= e > their country to find work. Also, ending the war on drugs here and there > would eliminate much of the corruption in Mexico and along our border tha= t > helps foster poverty. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ryan Daley > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 12:08:20 PM > Subject: > > I'm all for pulling down the wall. Immigration policy is one-sided, unfai= r, > and privileged, not to mention indicative/symptomatic of the late-crisis = of > the nation-state. Having offered my viewpoint of the wall between the US > and > Mexico, I'm curious: what do you all suggest be there in place of the wal= l > and why should we pull it down? > > On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 10:23 PM, cris cheek wrote: > > > HI Mark > > > > i utterly agree . . . end the war on drugs > > > > pull down the wall going up between Mexico and USA for another thing > > > > just for a start > > > > cris > > > > > > > > On Nov 5, 2008, at 9:40 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > Before we wet ourselves with excitement, let's > >> remember that any democrat who didn't get caught > >> sleeping with household pets would have won this > >> year, and that also in a lot of places black > >> statewide office holders are hardly novel. Obama > >> ran a great campaign, and he was a casting-office > >> perfect candidate, and of course it didn't hurt > >> getting almost 100% of an enlarged black vote, > >> but the states that flipped were very close the > >> last two times and moving steadily towards the > >> democrats, mostly due to demographic changes. > >> Low-hanging fruit. On the other hand, in the deep > >> south almost 80% of white folks voted against > >> Obama. And three states voted against gay > >> marriage and two against affirmative action. > >> > >> I voted for the man, given what my choices were, > >> but for the life of me I can't figure out why he > >> ran (remember who else was in the democratic > >> field) except "yes I can." He's yet to express > >> any opinion or propose anything that would risk > >> hurting him with his constituents, which is > >> pretty amazing even for so short a time in > >> politics. Here are a few things he could do that > >> would make me wild with enthusiasm--hell, any one > >> of them would make a convert of me--but might > >> cost him votes and affection the next time around. > >> > >> 1.Obama has supported subsidies for corn ethanol > >> and for farming in general, presumably because it > >> pleased his Illinois constituents (it probably > >> didn't hurt him any in Iowa). These have each > >> been disastrous for Latin America (the subsidies > >> made American corn cheaper than the stuff grown > >> at home, and the ethanol boom raised worldwide > >> prices life-threateningly high), which is why so > >> many of them have been risking their lives to > >> cross the border. Then there's the environmental > >> damage. Obama could propose ending the subsidies. > >> As a bonus, it would put him in a position to suggest that the EU do t= he > >> same. > >> > >> 2. Mexico is descending into chaos as its > >> government acts as our surrogate in fighting the > >> drug lords. Colombia already went through this, > >> for how many years? A change in US drug laws > >> would end the problem in minutes--no prohibition, > >> no value, and a fix costs pennies. A lot of > >> states have moved (slowly) towards reduced > >> penalties, even decriminalization of possession > >> of some drugs. Even so, proposing > >> decriminalization would cost votes. Save a lot of money and lives, tho= . > >> > >> 3. Need I mention the Cuban embargo? Obama will > >> probably return travel rules to their Clinton-era > >> status, but he's been pretty clear that Cuba has > >> to democratize to get the rest. He'd lose a lot of votes in Florida. > >> > >> 4. Israel's economy is dependent on 12 billion a > >> year in loan guarantees, without which no one > >> would make the short-term loans that all > >> economies need. That's the muscle that would get > >> them to the bargaining table toot sweet. Of > >> course it would cost most of the Jewish vote, which is why no one's do= ne > >> it. > >> > >> I could probably come up with a few more. I'm waiting to be convinced. > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> At 05:20 PM 11/5/2008, you wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Stephen, > >>> > >>> I'm In Chicago, and while I didn't make it out to Grant Park last > night, > >>> today there is a real feeling of uplift in the air. There's still a l= ot > >>> of > >>> rubble to dig out of, but it now feels as if we might just make it. > >>> > >>> Larry > >>> > >>> http://larryodean.blogspot.com > >>> http://larryodean.com > >>> > >>> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 23:20:18 -0800, Stephen Vincent < > steph484@PACBELL.NET > >>> > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> I don't know how many of us share my feeling that Obama's victory > feels > >>>> like we - as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have (finally) > been > >>>> pulled out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for 8 > >>>> long, > >>>> paralytic years. > >>>> I am in San Francisco - and earlier this night in Berkeley - but the= re > >>>> is > >>>> music and dancing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy happy= !=C2 > >>>> I know so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now > >>>> > >>> feels > >>> > >>>> good, good & real good. > >>>> > >>>> Whew! > >>>> > >>>> Stephen V > >>>> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > >>>> > >>> > >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept > >>> all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >>> > >> > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 23:34:19 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: MLA IN SF: Offsite Event in Oakland In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Hello! We are planning an off-site event, combining Music & Talk for the MLA this year. Trying not to conflict with any of the official events, but tentatively thinking about the EVENING OF DECEMBER 28th. Please let me know if you'll be visiting town and are interested in reading/dancing/singing/performing, etc. TALK pieces especially welcome. Send proposals backchannel to me at Chris.Stroffolino@gmail.com. Or www.myspace.com/startoor We'll try to accommodate as many visiting authors, writers, musicians, and performers as possible. The site the historic "China House" near Jack London square in Oakland. A quick ride on BART from the MLA hotel area. Chris Stroffolino, > > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 16:45:44 -0800 > From: Chris Stroffolino > Subject: Nicely Out Of Tune (#2) > > Happy Day of The Dead... > > A new song, a show announcement, and some polly tics... > > 1) So, just in time for the holidays, & the afternoons of darkness... > I got a new XMAS song up, called "The Isle Of Misfit Toys,"at > www.myspace.com/startoor > > 2) Tuesday's election has serious consequences.. > In San Francisco, there's a proposition to name a Sewage Plant after > President George W. Bush. > Please, if you know anybody in San Francisco, tell them to vote NO on > this proposition, > unless you want the quality of your sewage treatment to get worse! > Sewage workers should take pride in their work too! > > > 3) "Nicely Out Of Tune"--second installment of this monthly thing > ...(thanks again Amy Blaustein and Vanessa Beggs for performing at > the October one)... > > at the China House... > Dylan Brody (from LA) > Adam Balbo > Helene Renault > Chris Stroffolino (maybe with a quiet acoustic root rat thing...) > (maybe we'll ust play covers, and such...) > > In conjunction with KYOU-RADIO (1510 AM) > The Robert Urich Foundation ( it supports Cancer research) > > Saturday November 15, 9PM > $5 Door (but no one will be turned away for lack of funds, etc) > > @ China House-- > 1154 E. 12th St. Oakland (Corner of 12th & 12th) > (www.myspace.com/happinesshotel) > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 08:32:24 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jesse Glass Subject: James Liddy At Axel's After Midnight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Axel's Bar, just down and over a few blocks from the UWM campus is where we'd all gather to drink ourselves happy, then silly, then under. Around about midnight James Liddy would roll in with his bevy of young men,-- sweating, gouty and grinning--always grinning, to share the latest gossip or introduce one to a visiting poet (I met John Montague, and John Ashbery, among others, by the dim flicker of Axel's bar lights) or a publisher. He was a fine, generous soul--a good teacher and a great party-giver, and a roaring sinner but his stories about Patrick Kavanaugh were the best. We both shared a love for the poetry of James Clarence Mangan, but only James and his Irish crew maintained a flame for the moustached Frank, Axel's legendary bar-tender. Rest in peace, James. Rest long and well. I hope Jim Chapson is weathering it all and keeping fine--haven't seen him in years. I'll be thinking again about those days and nights, and breaking out James Liddy's books to catch his voice rising like Irish fiddles above that of Jack Spicer's. Jess ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 05:08:44 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081107211651.06e24bd0@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It's interesting to read the range of "poet responses" as they move from wonder and joy through to the scalpel Mark Weiss writes of wielding. I think the person I feel closest with is CA Conrad--one heard so little of any substance during this two years one billion dollar plus campaign-- one billion dollars to become President-!! that alone makes one wonder if the word "democracy" really applies--becuase in order to acquire al this backing money, as CA noted, the candidate has to start making compromises, selling apound of flesh here and antoher there--dropping old friends along the way, changing old beleifs one has cherished for decades overnight-- and now the names of the advisers and cabinet are starting to emerge it's as CA noted--the return of the neo-liberals--Rahm Emanuel and company--who are hard core on the side of the corporations----who under Clinton brought the US NAFTA--and at the same dropped more bombs than any previous American administration-- In our neighborhood in the West Central City in Milwaukee, there was some yelling and screaming and a few cars zooming about briefly honking horns -- their passengers' yells joining those of the others on foot-- But the neighborhood is under a form of lockdown, so, as in the NFL, "no excessive celebrating" after a point, and the yelling and honking couldn't go on very long. The new Police Chief decided upon this area, known nefariously for eons as "Crack Alley"--as the starting point for a proposed series of clean up operations. For months now--a half year--there are police on foot, bikes, in cars and unmarked cars, under cover officers and detectives and the neighborhood watch, too, so that things have been relatively subdued. All the same the dope dealers and prostitutes manage to ply their trades, as they will until the end of time. This situation expresses in its tensions between joy and wariness the way that many people feel. It is a momentous and great joy that Obama is elected--but what comes next is what people are wary of. Everyone has seen all too often how a position of power can alter a person one thought one once knew, and also people know that though "the faces may change, the game remains the same." How much will really change in the over all system of American political, economic and military life? How much will really change of real substance in the culture? Language in the USA has been very affected since 9/11, become often a way of not saying anything seen as troublesome--and at the same time turning steadily into a doubletalk, with a reduced vocabulary leading to the Orwellian concept of the words which cancel themselves out by holding at the same time a meaning and its exact opposite-- It's a language designed to keep people from asking too many questions, and from looking too closely at what the implications of events are. For example, while the US is basking in the glow of its diversity and equality--and feeling that it is once again Number One as "exemplar to the World-- will this make a dent at al in the massive funding, military support and backing the US pours out for an Apartheid state? It is not only the truly great challenges which lie ahead in terms of the economy, the environment, ending the wars (which Obama has spoken of extending to being the "Right War"--)--but also the moral challenges--the cultural challenges-- Remember, that the presidency now with al the new laws passed since 9/11 is but a couple of baby steps away from becoming a dictatorship--and the only real partners to share this power with will be the corporations, the banks and military-- Thank yous to the people who have written not to forget the persons who worked for campaigns, and for the voters who showed up and voted. Tolstoy in War and Peace wrote that it is not the Napoleons who change history finally, but the anonymous, "little" people. That's why every effort is always made to keep people in a state of unawareness as much as possible, and fil them up with as many lies as possible, so as not to wake this sleeping giant. Perhaps someday as people see that their votes count, they may begin to realize why it is so many countries are enemies of America,which, not pleased by the outcomes of democratic elections in this country or that, immediately sets about destroying it as much as possible. Look at the atrocities that have happened to Gaza as the price for democratically electing the "wrong people," or the efforts made and ongoing by the US to subvert the elected governments of Bolivia, Paraguay, Venezuela. They join the long long list of US denial and overthrow of others' democratically elected governments from Guatemala, Iran, Vietnam Nicaragua to Chile to name a few. As Americans, one celebrates a great moment in the history of this nation--a truly great event, very deeply felt.-- Yet will this lead to a complaisance, and the holding to the same old same old disregard for the democracies and rights of other peoples? Having elected the "right" President who is for fighting the "right" Wars, wil the celebration of democracy, diversity and equality be one for only the "right" peoples of our choosing around the world? Will the new mood of celebration forget to include the indigenous peoples whom the US still excludes, as the US does not recognize and did not sign the International Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which gave the Indian Evo Morales of Bolivia to have the opportunity to run for President? Is this a truly great change in the American people that will lead to changes in their treatment of others outside the US? Will there begin to be a realization that our celebration at the same time supports Apartheid and ethnic cleansing in many areas? That in order to be elected, a Black President had to swear fealty to an Apartheid regime--and speak of the expansion of wars against the Muslim world most particularly? The post 9/11 laws and Acts give the President powers the writers of the Constitution tried to prevent, and the erosion of civil liberties means that any person is subject to being detainee without limit for appearing to be opposed to things as they are in some vaguely defined way. The President -elect voted for the bail outof the banks, and despite the little warning given by the elected officials, the CEOs who created this debacle all the same have given themselves substantial bonuses to celebrate their having succeeded so marvelously at ripping off billions and being bailed out of trouble for doing so. In other words, some may be indefinitely disappeared for next to no reasons, while others are rewarded for openly defrauding citizens and the government both of billions. That's why I thought the yelling and hollering I joined in with that lasted briefly and stopped due to common sense awareness of being inhabitants of "an occupied territory" so to speak, is a positive state of critical awareness, feeling great joy, yet also wariness, not rushing in like a herd behind the leaders, in case where it leads is to the same old same old or, who knows, even worse . . . Work and awareness, by the people, to keep the elected ones on their toes and working for these--they didn't do so after their elections in 2006 after all-- may bring real change. Asking questions, rather than stopping, sated with satisfaction and righteousness--as though the answers have been made-- or, change may simply be as the Italian writer Lampedusa wrote of it: "to change everything so that nothing is changed." With a completely different "structure of feeling," "we" may find ourselves still doing the same things-- only instead of being gloomy about wars and invasions due to who is in office, perhaps instead we may become gung ho--awash in an awakening of a new found patriotism that still serves the same old ends though one can now feel "good about it" rather than "depressed." Instead of singing Obama! we may be singing O bombah! as "the rockets red glare and bombs bursts in air"-- Having "proved American is no longer racist," doesn't this free the nation to act in a racist way without being criticized for it, because it can say, why obviously we are not? In terms of language there may be the creation of a whole new form of doubletalk than has previously existedm in which the feel good self can find easier softer ways of hiding its moral and intellectual contradictions from itself. All these things are possible and have happened before. So while I am deeply moved and happy in a way almost out of reach of wrods, also one remembers that the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the pudding has yet to be set out before one. It's never a good idea to join a crowd rushing towards a giant feast that hasn't yet begun to be prepared. As in the play, one might be turned into a Rhinoceros before one knows it! And somebody has to stick around and not be a Rhinoceros, after all-- ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 09:27:37 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sarah Sarai Subject: Re: response to mark weiss, from a poet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain RE: Adam's:=20 Just a little nitpicking: >>The percentage of black voters wasn't much bigger than in previous year= s, by the way.=20 FROM ADAM: Actually, it was: it went up from 11% of total voters in 2004= to 13% of total voters this year. That's an increase of almost 20%. Adam: I heard the first two percentages and not the third (and apparentl= y didn't have the=20 wherewithal to do the math). Good nitpick.=20=20 ...Sarah =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 10:10:52 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Forty Acres Comments: To: welford@HAWAII.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Gabrielle, to my ears even your terms "son of an african chief, went to = ruling class school in hawaii" rock the White House. Spinning in the huge drum of hope-- Mairead >>> welford@HAWAII.EDU 11/08/08 12:34 AM >>> i have been thinking about that quite a bit, yes. it's not his genealogy at all. son of an african chief, went to ruling class school in hawaii... all adds to the dampness of my celebration. small bits of hope keep poking me in the ribs but not very hard. g Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Fri, 7 Nov 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > Not to be a wet blanket, but does anyone notice the irony in the fact = that Obama is not a descendent of the people Walcott is talking about in = this poem? Some lovely ideas in the images, though. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: Daniel Godston To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 3:25:16 PM Subject: Forty Acres O Forty Acres: a poem for Barack Obama from Nobel winner Derek Walcott Out of the turmoil emerges one emblem, an engraving =E2=80=94 a young Negro at dawn in straw hat and overalls, an emblem of impossible prophecy, a crowd dividing like the furrow which a mule has ploughed, parting for their president: a field of snow-flecked cotton forty acres wide, of crows with predictable omens that the young ploughman ignores for his unforgotten cotton-haired ancestors, while lined on one branch, is a tense court of bespectacled owls and, on the field's receding rim =E2=80=94 a gesticulating scarecrow stamping with rage at him. The small plough continues on this lined page beyond the moaning ground, the lynching tree, the tornado's black vengeance, and the young ploughman feels the change in his veins, heart, muscles, tendons, till the land lies open like a flag as dawn's sure light streaks the field and furrows wait for the sower From The New York Times Online November 5, 2008 The West Indies poet Derek Walcott, winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize for Literature, writes exclusively for The Times to mark the election of = Barack Obama as President http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/ar= ticle5088429.ece =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check = guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check = guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 10:36:12 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Prop 6, was Re: Corretta Scott King said... In-Reply-To: <339332.31823.qm@web46215.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The controversy about gay marriage is of course based on sexual fear and hatred, but it remains legally controversial because of a misunderstanding of marriage, which is really two distinct things. For the religious, marriage is a sacrament. The social meaning of marriage-as-sacrament is limited to the church-as-society. But in the secular world marriage, wherever and however performed, is a contract between two people, recognized by the state, that binds them legally and financially. What if the two functions of marriage were separated, as they are in fact for many of us? Churches should have the right to consider whoever they wish marriageable or not. Excluded couples can always find another church. But let's restrict the word "marriage" to the sacrament. The secular rest of us, whether gay or straight, should plight our troths in civil unions, with the same legal rights as the sacramentally-married. I suspect that if that were the case there'd be a falling-off in weddings by clerics, followed by a revision of the positions of a lot of churches. Otherwise, with the fall-off in business it might be hard to pay for the wine and crackers. Mark At 10:46 PM 11/7/2008, you wrote: >I've thought about this, and the outcome should not be all that >shocking to those who understand the world views of >African-Americans and Hispanics. The civil rights movement is >applicable only to those whose attributes are an accident of birth. >Everyone would agree that one does not choose what race one is born >as, but for many, especially in the African-American and Hispanic >communities, which are very religiously conservative, homosexuality >is a choice. From that perspective, it makes sense that one would >not necessarily support civil rights for a group who chose to be who >they are. Of course, I do not think choice comes into the matter >when it comes to sexual orientation, and I do not find it reasonable >to expect people to go against their fundamental natures. Throw in >the fact that I don't think it's the government's business to have a >say about who gets married, and I'm all for a more open definition >of marriage which includes same-sex unions. > >If homosexuals are looking for a political party favorable to their >issues, they should all join the Libertarian Party. Besides, the LP >is the only party that supports the naturally-occurring free market >economy, meaning they are much more prone to have positions >reflecting reality anyway. > >Troy Camplin > > > >________________________________ >From: CA Conrad >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 9:51:16 AM >Subject: Corretta Scott King said... > >"Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in >Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil >Rights Movement. Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my >freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I >salute their contributions." > > >THIS is something the voters of California needed to think about. THIS is >something Obama and Biden need to think about. The campaign against the >queer community among Democrats will leave a vile taste in my mouth for many >years. I will NEVER forget Biden's comments at his debate with Palin where >he said that if a queer's partner is dying in the hospital that that good >little queer should be allowed to visit. THANKS JOE, for ALLOWING us to be >a recognized, an actual group of human beings to be recognized WHEN WE'RE >DYING! But not before? I voted for him, but I don't like him! > >It is hard for me to imagine people with hope and Love and excitement, >voting for Obama, AS THEY SHOULD HAVE FELT, AS I MYSELF FELT WHEN VOTING FOR >HIM, but then, in that moment where the idea of civil rights struggle came >to bear on the voting machine THEY TURN to repress another group. > >It's startling. > >It's unforgivable. > >People must be told when they have done something unforgivable. And I DON'T >CARE if Prop 8 is overturned, The People still turned to violence in the >booth, one more time. It must NOT be forgiven! > >CAConrad >*HOMOPHOBIA and a Lexicon of Violence: ** >http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html* > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 08:57:37 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Forty Acres MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And "son of an African chief" evokes Nelson Mandela, no? Not a bad thing, I= hope...=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Mairead Byr= ne =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Saturday, 8= November, 2008 3:10:52 PM=0ASubject: Re: Forty Acres=0A=0AGabrielle, to my= ears even your terms "son of an african chief, went to ruling class school= in hawaii" rock the White House.=0ASpinning in the huge drum of hope--=0AM= airead=0A=0A>>> welford@HAWAII.EDU 11/08/08 12:34 AM >>>=0Ai have been thin= king about that quite a bit, yes.=C2=A0 it's not his genealogy=0Aat all.=C2= =A0 son of an african chief, went to ruling class school in hawaii...=0Aall= adds to the dampness of my celebration.=C2=A0 small bits of hope keep=0Apo= king me in the ribs but not very hard.=C2=A0 g=0A=0AGabrielle Welford, Ph.D= .=0A_Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous= =0ACultures_=0Ahttp://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dful= l&id=3D317=0A_Dora_=0Ahttp://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?actio= n=3Dfull&id=3D378=0A=0ANo virus found in this incoming message.=0AChecked b= y AVG Free Edition.=0AVersion: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Rel= ease Date: 2/27/2007=0A=0AOn Fri, 7 Nov 2008, Troy Camplin wrote:=0A=0A> No= t to be a wet blanket, but does anyone notice the irony in the fact that Ob= ama is not a descendent of the people Walcott is talking about in this poem= ? Some lovely ideas in the images, though.=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A___= _____________________________=0AFrom: Daniel Godston =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 3:= 25:16 PM=0ASubject: Forty Acres=0A=0AO=0AForty Acres: a poem for Barack Oba= ma from Nobel winner Derek Walcott=0A=0AOut of the turmoil emerges one embl= em, an engraving =E2=80=94=0Aa young Negro at dawn in straw hat and overall= s,=0Aan emblem of impossible prophecy, a crowd=0Adividing like the furrow w= hich a mule has ploughed,=0Aparting for their president: a field of snow-fl= ecked cotton=0Aforty acres wide, of crows with predictable omens=0Athat the= young ploughman ignores for his unforgotten=0Acotton-haired ancestors, whi= le lined on one branch, is a tense=0Acourt of bespectacled owls and, on the= field's receding rim =E2=80=94=0Aa gesticulating scarecrow stamping with r= age at him.=0AThe small plough continues on this lined page=0Abeyond the mo= aning ground, the lynching tree, the tornado's=0Ablack vengeance,=0Aand the= young ploughman feels the change in his veins,=0Aheart, muscles, tendons,= =0Atill the land lies open like a flag as dawn's sure=0Alight streaks the f= ield and furrows wait for the sower=0A=0AFrom The New York Times Online=0AN= ovember 5, 2008=0A=0AThe West Indies poet Derek Walcott, winner of the 1992= Nobel Prize for=0ALiterature, writes exclusively for The Times to mark the= election of Barack Obama as President=0A=0Ahttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/to= l/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5088429.ece=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all= posts.. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/= welcome..html=0A=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List= is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub inf= o: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Chec= k guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html= =0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does no= t accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.e= du/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 09:20:44 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Troy, The question of being gay as "natural" or a "choice" is beyond moot.=A0 Sin= ce the constitution provides everyone equal rights - ahem - I should be all= owed to marry whomever I choose, so long as they consent and choose me as w= ell.=A0 To devolve into such debate over whether the selection of one's spo= use is a choice, a coercion, a divine intervention, a prophetic union, or w= hat-have-you is to distract from the purposes & securities provided by the = constitution.=A0 That we *must* be separated by gender was not something ou= r forefathers predicted would be problematic -- any more than when they wro= te that some people weren't exactly human and could be owned as chattel.=A0= =20 But in an age when it is beginning to be acknowledged that gender lines are= , at best, blurred and complex, sexes are multiple (despite "corrective" me= asures - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/magazine/24intersexkids.html & h= ttp://www.jenellerose.com/htmlpostings/intersex_babies_controversy.htm), an= d, like it or not, gender is fluid, to create an amendment defining marriag= e as between a "man" and a "woman" is institutionalized bias.=A0 Devolving = into the archaic debate of just what penis and vagina should be allowed a l= egally-sanctioned U.S. Gov't issued contract is silly and a distracting fal= lacy.=A0 Two people should be granted the same rights as any other two peop= le as written in the constitution.=A0 This debate heralds back to the not-s= o-old one of whether it was "right" that blacks and whites be allowed the s= ame rights under the law, as if the races were two different species (see a= nti-miscegenation laws).=A0 It wasn't so long ago that people thought it "unnatural" to see two separate skin tones loving one another.=A0 Some sti= ll think it "unnatural."=A0=A0 The debate of nature vs nurture is itself a = perversion.=A0=20 An aside:=A0 I think the passing of Prop 8 speaks moreover to the hope that= by denying the GLBT community the right to marry will somehow abolish the = very existence of that community -- at least, that's my pessimistic read on= the whole debacle.=A0=A0 Gays/lesbians are the latest "Other" just as immi= grants remain "Alien" on the soil of a people obsessed with "getting and ke= eping theirs."=A0=20 Mark,=20 Separations of symbols vs. legalities not withstanding, civil unions and do= mestic partnerships do NOT provide the same legal benefits that marriages d= o.=A0 It's all in the poetic wording, no?=A0=A0 "Separate but equal" has hi= storically betrayed everyone's "good" intentions.=A0 If "civil unions" were= to be federally-mandated, then perhaps that would cover the legal protecti= ons that marriages do, but until then: What are some of the limitations of civil unions? =20 Civil unions are different from marriage, and that difference has wide-ranging implications that make the two institutions unequal. Here is a quick look at some of the most significant differences:=20 =20 -Portability: =20 Marriages are respected state to state for all purposes, but questions remain about how civil unions will be treated in other states.=A0 GLAD believes there are strong arguments that civil unions deserve respect across the country just like marriages. But the two appellate courts that have addressed the issue (in Connecticut and Georgia) have disrespected them based on the fact that their states do not grant civi= l unions themselves. =20 -Ending a Civil Union: =20 If you are married, you can get divorced in any state in which you are = a resident. But if states continue to disrespect civil unions, there is no way to end the relationship other than by establishing residency in Vermont and filing for divorce there. This has already created problems for some couples who now have no way to terminate their legal commitment. =20 -Federal Benefits: =20 According to a 1997 GAO report, civil marriage brings with it at least 1,049 legal protections and responsibilities from the federal government, including the right to take leave from work to care for a family member, the right to sponsor a spouse for immigration purposes, and Social Security survivor benefits that can make a difference betwee= n old age in poverty and old age in security. Civil unions bring none of these critical legal protections. =20 -Taxes & Public Benefits for the Family: =20 Because the federal government does not respect civil unions, a couple with a civil union will be in a kind of limbo with regard to governmental functions performed by both state and federal governments, such as taxation, pension protections, provision of insurance for families, and means-tested programs like Medicaid. Even when states try to provide legal protections, they may be foreclosed from doing so in joint federal/state programs. =20 -Filling out forms: =20 Every day, we fill out forms that ask us whether we are married or single. People joined in a civil union don't fit into either category. People with civil unions should be able to identify themselves as a single family unit, but misrepresenting oneself on official documents can be considered fraud and carries potential serious criminal penalties.=20 =20 -Separate & Unequal -- Second-Class Status: =20 Even if there were no substantive differences in the way the law treate= d marriages and civil unions, the fact that a civil union remains a separate status just for gay people represents real and powerful inequality. We've been down this road before in this country and should not kid ourselves that a separate institution just for gay people is a just solution here either. Our constitution requires legal equality for all. Including gay and lesbian couples within existing marriage laws is the fairest and simplest thing to do. =20 How real are these differences between marriage and civil unions, given that a federal law and some state laws discriminate against all marriages of same-sex couples? =20 Would any of this change immediately with marriage of same-sex couples? Probably not, because married same-sex couples will face other layers o= f discrimination against their marriages. Right now, a federal law denies recognition of same-sex unions conferred by any state for purposes of all federal programs and requirements and over 30 state laws do the same. Ending discrimination in marriage does not mean the end of all discrimination, but using the term "marriage" rather than "civil union" is an essential first step to opening the door and addressing whether continued governmental discrimination against civil marriages of gay an= d lesbian people makes sense.=20 =20 Marriage and civil unions remain different, both in practice and in principle.=20 =20 First, more than a dozen states have not taken a discriminatory positio= n against civil marriages of gay and lesbian couples. In those states, civilly married gay and lesbian couples should be able to live and travel freely and without fear that their relationship will be disrespected. =20 Second, even as to those states with discriminatory laws, legally married gay and lesbian couples from those states may well face some discrimination in some quarters, but their marriages will also be treated with legal respect in other arenas. Marriages are far more likely to be respected by others than newly minted "civil unions." =20 Using the term marriage also prompts a discussion about fairness. Allowing same sex couples to marry (rather than enter a separate status= ) will allow gay and lesbian people to talk with their neighbors, their local elected officials, and the Congress about whether discrimination against their marriages is fair. Where gay and lesbian people and their children are part of the social fabric, is it right to continue discriminating against them in civil marriage? The federal government and states that have taken discriminatory positions against marriages o= f gay and lesbian couples could rethink those policies and go back to respecting state laws about marriage, as they have done for hundreds of years. In the end, we will not be able to have this discussion until gay and lesbian folks have what everyone else has: civil marriage. =20 http://www.yffn.org/admin/spi/marriagevsunion.html http://lesbianlife.about.com/cs/wedding/a/unionvmarriage.htm Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 09:39:02 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: p.s. Murphy's Law [& Young's too] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Or rather, eloquent excerpts below by poets, Miguel Murphy and C. Dale Youn= g: Miguel Murphy -- =20 =A0 Why trust gay men and women to cut your hair, write your television shows, do your banking, file your taxwork, drive your buses, ser= ve as your councilmen, your senator woman, operate on your bodies, teach your children, write up your life insurance policies, pay taxes, bag your grocer= ies, pour your coffees, sell you clothing, defend your legal cases, act as your shrink, and in my case, serve as your literature professor, why trust us to have civic responsibilities, to perform and participate in business, govern= ment, religious life, the arts, education. . . and then tell us that you don't believe we should be able to marry. Why wouldn't you trust us to believe in love, to choose for ourselves who to make lifelong commitments to, to pursu= e the sacred endeavors of a spiritual pursuit with another person, to make fo= r ourselves family, to have a ceremony and to have legal rights that endorse = that ceremony? =A0 =A0 --Miguel Murphy -- http://pistola32.blogspot.com/2008/11/sad-ironies.html =A0[I might add, "And write poems for you too."] =A0 =A0 ~~~~~ =A0 =A0 C. Dale Young --=20 =A0 I know many out there believe this is just a small set back, the whole passage of Prop 8 thing, but it isn't a small thing. For the firs= t time in the history of the California Constitution, for the first time, I believe, for any State Constitution, a majority took away rights from a minority. Unlike other States, where bans have been written in before the S= tate ever granted such rights, this is very different. The only other State that could understand this is Massachusetts. And now, I believe, Connecticut. But in those two States, a lot must take place to reverse same sex marriage rights because they are deemed Constitutional rights. The populace of the S= tate of California took away rights from an entire group of people. I worked hard to overcome = my cynicism on this marriage rights issue over the past 2 years. Why? Because = I didn't believe we would ever be granted the right to marry at all. I never believed it would happen. But I worked to replace my cynicism with somethin= g better, something more hopeful. And now, I almost wish I hadn't. Yesterday = was the first time as an adult I felt so completely marginalized and dismissed = by the people. Yesterday was the first time I felt my belief in humanity dissipating. Gay people are not significantly different from straight peopl= e. We happen to fall in love with people of our own gender as opposed to oppos= ite gender. We are your brothers, your sisters, your cousins, your neighbors. W= e are your accountants, your grocers, your doctors, your sales clerks, your b= ank tellers, your pilots, and so on. Gays and Lesbians are people just like everyone else. We have the same worries, the same fears. We bleed if you cu= t us, just like you. We are not, as some portray us, THE OTHER. We are you. A= nd because we are you, taking away our rights and taking away our hopes, hurts= us all. Many straight folks just don't realize it yet. Everyone was hurt by th= e passage of Prop 8. They just don't realize it. Now, there will be precedent= . Now, there is a precedent for the majority, in the future, to take away rig= hts from people for whatever difference they find offensive. =A0 =A0 --C. Dale Young -- http://avoidmuse.blogspot.com/2008/11/we-are-you.html _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 13:06:30 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Prop 6, was Re: Corretta Scott King said... In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081108102146.06f4d6e8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree with Mark here. though the majority of people voted against gay marriage, this does not mean they all or the majority of them are against civil unions. Ciao, Murat On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > The controversy about gay marriage is of course based on sexual fear and > hatred, but it remains legally controversial because of a misunderstanding > of marriage, which is really two distinct things. For the religious, > marriage is a sacrament. The social meaning of marriage-as-sacrament is > limited to the church-as-society. But in the secular world marriage, > wherever and however performed, is a contract between two people, recognized > by the state, that binds them legally and financially. > > What if the two functions of marriage were separated, as they are in fact > for many of us? > > Churches should have the right to consider whoever they wish marriageable > or not. Excluded couples can always find another church. But let's restrict > the word "marriage" to the sacrament. The secular rest of us, whether gay or > straight, should plight our troths in civil unions, with the same legal > rights as the sacramentally-married. > > I suspect that if that were the case there'd be a falling-off in weddings > by clerics, followed by a revision of the positions of a lot of churches. > Otherwise, with the fall-off in business it might be hard to pay for the > wine and crackers. > > Mark > > At 10:46 PM 11/7/2008, you wrote: > >> I've thought about this, and the outcome should not be all that shocking >> to those who understand the world views of African-Americans and Hispanics. >> The civil rights movement is applicable only to those whose attributes are >> an accident of birth. Everyone would agree that one does not choose what >> race one is born as, but for many, especially in the African-American and >> Hispanic communities, which are very religiously conservative, homosexuality >> is a choice. From that perspective, it makes sense that one would not >> necessarily support civil rights for a group who chose to be who they are. >> Of course, I do not think choice comes into the matter when it comes to >> sexual orientation, and I do not find it reasonable to expect people to go >> against their fundamental natures. Throw in the fact that I don't think it's >> the government's business to have a say about who gets married, and I'm all >> for a more open definition of marriage which includes same-sex unions. >> >> If homosexuals are looking for a political party favorable to their >> issues, they should all join the Libertarian Party. Besides, the LP is the >> only party that supports the naturally-occurring free market economy, >> meaning they are much more prone to have positions reflecting reality >> anyway. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: CA Conrad >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Friday, November 7, 2008 9:51:16 AM >> Subject: Corretta Scott King said... >> >> "Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in >> Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil >> Rights Movement. Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for >> my >> freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I >> salute their contributions." >> >> >> THIS is something the voters of California needed to think about. THIS is >> something Obama and Biden need to think about. The campaign against the >> queer community among Democrats will leave a vile taste in my mouth for >> many >> years. I will NEVER forget Biden's comments at his debate with Palin >> where >> he said that if a queer's partner is dying in the hospital that that good >> little queer should be allowed to visit. THANKS JOE, for ALLOWING us to >> be >> a recognized, an actual group of human beings to be recognized WHEN WE'RE >> DYING! But not before? I voted for him, but I don't like him! >> >> It is hard for me to imagine people with hope and Love and excitement, >> voting for Obama, AS THEY SHOULD HAVE FELT, AS I MYSELF FELT WHEN VOTING >> FOR >> HIM, but then, in that moment where the idea of civil rights struggle came >> to bear on the voting machine THEY TURN to repress another group. >> >> It's startling. >> >> It's unforgivable. >> >> People must be told when they have done something unforgivable. And I >> DON'T >> CARE if Prop 8 is overturned, The People still turned to violence in the >> booth, one more time. It must NOT be forgiven! >> >> CAConrad >> *HOMOPHOBIA and a Lexicon of Violence: ** >> http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html*< >> http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 13:37:44 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] Comments: To: amyhappens@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <107780.5775.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'm aware of all this. For what it's worth, I've been a long-term contributing member of the California Human Rights Campaign, a gay activist group that fought hard against Prop 8. I was proposing that civil unions be precisely the same legally and contractually as marriage, but totally secular, just as currently in all US jurisdictions marriage by a Justice of the Peace carries the same rights and obligations as a church wedding. Case in point, my own marriage to a woman would have been a civil union under my proposal, as both of us were atheists and an Elvis chapel in Las Vegas probably doesn't qualify as a church. If all secular marriages, regardless of the genders of the participants, were called something other than marriage any onus attached to the term used would be hard to sustain. If someone has to yield it, yielding the term marriage to the churches makes sense. The symbolism invested in the term is largely their fabrication. Anyway, it's impossible to imagine the various denominations agreeing to cede the term. I suspect that for the majority of those who voted for Prop 8 it was the lumping of secular and sacred under the same term that was at fault, tho I doubt that they thought it through, and that a clear separation of the sacramental would largely end the controversy. Of course, individual churches and denominations could fight it out, but again, I suspect that a controversy among Mormons, say, would be a major concern only of Mormons, and not all of them. I single out Mormons because it was the LDS that funded Prop 8. I'm of course also aware that what I propose is a utopian fantasy, given the level of rational discourse in the US. While we're at it, a ban on the throwing of rice at weddings wouldn't be a bad thing. Birds eat the grains, which swell in their crops, killing them. It follows that if we must throw rice it should be precooked. Mark At 12:20 PM 11/8/2008, amy king wrote: >Troy, > >The question of being gay as "natural" or a "choice" is beyond >moot. Since the constitution provides everyone equal rights - ahem >- I should be allowed to marry whomever I choose, so long as they >consent and choose me as well. To devolve into such debate over >whether the selection of one's spouse is a choice, a coercion, a >divine intervention, a prophetic union, or what-have-you is to >distract from the purposes & securities provided by the >constitution. That we *must* be separated by gender was not >something our forefathers predicted would be problematic -- any more >than when they wrote that some people weren't exactly human and >could be owned as chattel. > >But in an age when it is beginning to be acknowledged that gender >lines are, at best, blurred and complex, sexes are multiple (despite >"corrective" measures - >http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/magazine/24intersexkids.html & >http://www.jenellerose.com/htmlpostings/intersex_babies_controversy.htm), >and, like it or not, gender is fluid, to create an amendment >defining marriage as between a "man" and a "woman" is >institutionalized bias. Devolving into the archaic debate of just >what penis and vagina should be allowed a legally-sanctioned U.S. >Gov't issued contract is silly and a distracting fallacy. Two >people should be granted the same rights as any other two people as >written in the constitution. This debate heralds back to the >not-so-old one of whether it was "right" that blacks and whites be >allowed the same rights under the law, as if the races were two >different species (see anti-miscegenation laws). It wasn't so long >ago that people thought it > "unnatural" to see two separate skin tones loving one > another. Some still think it "unnatural." The debate of nature > vs nurture is itself a perversion. > >An aside: I think the passing of Prop 8 speaks moreover to the hope >that by denying the GLBT community the right to marry will somehow >abolish the very existence of that community -- at least, that's my >pessimistic read on the whole debacle. Gays/lesbians are the >latest "Other" just as immigrants remain "Alien" on the soil of a >people obsessed with "getting and keeping theirs." > > >Mark, > >Separations of symbols vs. legalities not withstanding, civil unions >and domestic partnerships do NOT provide the same legal benefits >that marriages do. It's all in the poetic wording, no? "Separate >but equal" has historically betrayed everyone's "good" >intentions. If "civil unions" were to be federally-mandated, then >perhaps that would cover the legal protections that marriages do, >but until then: > > >What are some of the limitations of civil unions? > > > > Civil unions are different from marriage, and that difference has > wide-ranging implications that make the two institutions unequal. Here > is a quick look at some of the most significant differences: > > > > -Portability: > > > > Marriages are respected state to state for all purposes, but questions > remain about how civil unions will be treated in other states. > GLAD > believes there are strong arguments that civil unions deserve respect > across the country just like marriages. But the two appellate courts > that have addressed the issue (in Connecticut and Georgia) have > disrespected them based on the fact that their states do not > grant civil unions themselves. > > > > -Ending a Civil Union: > > > > If you are married, you can get divorced in any state in which you are a > resident. But if states continue to disrespect civil unions, there is > no way to end the relationship other than by establishing residency in > Vermont and filing for divorce there. This has already created problems > for some couples who now have no way to terminate their legal > commitment. > > > > -Federal Benefits: > > > > According to a 1997 GAO report, civil marriage brings with it at least > 1,049 legal protections and responsibilities from the federal > government, including the right to take leave from work to care for a > family member, the right to sponsor a spouse for immigration purposes, > and Social Security survivor benefits that can make a difference between > old age in poverty and old age in security. Civil unions bring none of > these critical legal protections. > > > > -Taxes & Public Benefits for the Family: > > > > Because the federal government does not respect civil unions, a couple > with a civil union will be in a kind of limbo with regard to > governmental functions performed by both state and federal governments, > such as taxation, pension protections, provision of insurance for > families, and means-tested programs like Medicaid. Even when states try > to provide legal protections, they may be foreclosed from doing so in > joint federal/state programs. > > > > -Filling out forms: > > > > Every day, we fill out forms that ask us whether we are married or > single. People joined in a civil union don't fit into either category. > People with civil unions should be able to identify themselves as a > single family unit, but misrepresenting oneself on official documents > can be considered fraud and carries potential serious criminal > > penalties. > > > > -Separate & Unequal -- Second-Class Status: > > > > Even if there were no substantive differences in the way the law treated > marriages and civil unions, the fact that a civil union remains a > separate status just for gay people represents real and powerful > inequality. We've been down this road before in this country and should > not kid ourselves that a separate institution just for gay people is a > just solution here either. Our constitution requires legal equality for > all. Including gay and lesbian couples within existing marriage laws is > the fairest and simplest thing to do. > > > > How real are these differences between marriage and civil unions, given > that a federal law and some state laws discriminate against all > marriages of same-sex couples? > > > > Would any of this change immediately with marriage of same-sex couples? > Probably not, because married same-sex couples will face other layers of > discrimination against their marriages. Right now, a federal law denies > recognition of same-sex unions conferred by any state for purposes of > all federal programs and requirements and over 30 state laws do the > same. Ending discrimination in marriage does not mean the end of all > discrimination, but using the term "marriage" rather than "civil union" > is an essential first step to opening the door and addressing whether > continued governmental discrimination against civil marriages of gay and > lesbian people makes sense. > > > > Marriage and civil unions remain different, both in practice and in > > principle. > > > > First, more than a dozen states have not taken a discriminatory position > against civil marriages of gay and lesbian couples. In those states, > civilly married gay and lesbian couples should be able to live and > travel freely and without fear that their relationship will be > disrespected. > > > > Second, even as to those states with discriminatory laws, legally > married gay and lesbian couples from those states may well face some > discrimination in some quarters, but their marriages will also be > treated with legal respect in other arenas. Marriages are far more > likely to be respected by others than newly minted "civil unions." > > > > Using the term marriage also prompts a discussion about fairness. > Allowing same sex couples to marry (rather than enter a separate status) > will allow gay and lesbian people to talk with their neighbors, their > local elected officials, and the Congress about whether discrimination > against their marriages is fair. Where gay and lesbian people and their > children are part of the social fabric, is it right to continue > discriminating against them in civil marriage? The federal government > and states that have taken discriminatory positions against marriages of > gay and lesbian couples could rethink those policies and go back to > respecting state laws about marriage, as they have done for hundreds of > years. In the end, we will not be able to have this discussion until > gay and lesbian folks have what everyone else > has: civil marriage. > > >http://www.yffn.org/admin/spi/marriagevsunion.html >http://lesbianlife.about.com/cs/wedding/a/unionvmarriage.htm > > >Be well, > >Amy > >_______ > > > > > >Recent work > >http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > >Amy's Alias > >http://amyking.org/ > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 10:49:35 -0800 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Subject: The New Regime & what is possible In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unless I am hopelessly naive, or, simply, refuse to accede to the Bush doct= rine of 'this country ain't no longer a democracy, and consent of the gover= ned don't mean merdre, 'we' own you, the government et al' - I would like t= o still imagine that 'we the people' who elected Obama will pressure, shape= and have a positive insistence on the responsiveness and direction of this= new government. I realize Pelosi et al rolled over and played dead on Iraq= , etc. after their victories in 2006 and so it is easy to get pessimistic. = But it turns my stomach to see people who probably voted for Obama so quick= ly throw their minds under the truck of the defeat of anything progressive = happening starting in 2009.=A0 The huge weight and consequences of the real= collapse of this economy is going to require a huge and urgent effort to r= edefine.=A0 Sitting on the sidelines, naysayings ready at hand is, in my op= inion, a sure way to insure one does not become a part of a constructive solution. In fact, as this thing (the economy)=A0 continues t= o spiral out of control, I this 'stand on the sidelines' approach is a luxu= ry that few of us will be able to afford. I think the real public joy in this election - both visceral and symbolic a= s it is - ideally will be converted into positive public acts (something im= possible to conceive within this government during these last 8 years).=20 By the way, I have not heard a peep out of anybody about the role of the Ar= ts in the new Administration. No doubt there are many lobbies speaking for = their interests. (Is the Poetry Foundation banging a loud drum - and the on= ly one for poetry - in the background? What might reshape - other than undo= ubtable cuts in the Federal Budget - the way a new head of the NEA and the = Literature programs proceed to fund and give support institutions in suppor= t of poetry and writing. May there be ways the Poetry Foundation - with its= huge endowment - be encouraged by the Feds to disperse its funds to suppor= t great poetry=A0 programs across the country (St. Marks, SF State Poetry C= enter, Beyond Baroque, etc.) What do I know? Maybe the Poetry Foundation has also lost half its value in= the Stock Market. Anyway, I believe a time of regime change is great time to push ideas and c= hanges before a regime settles down and does not have the energy or will to= be responsive. =A0 Stephen Vincent =A0 http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ =A0 --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Mairead Byrne wrote: From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Forty Acres To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 7:10 AM Gabrielle, to my ears even your terms "son of an african chief, went to ruling class school in hawaii" rock the White House. Spinning in the huge drum of hope-- Mairead >>> welford@HAWAII.EDU 11/08/08 12:34 AM >>> i have been thinking about that quite a bit, yes. it's not his genealogy at all. son of an african chief, went to ruling class school in hawaii... all adds to the dampness of my celebration. small bits of hope keep poking me in the ribs but not very hard. g Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Fri, 7 Nov 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > Not to be a wet blanket, but does anyone notice the irony in the fact tha= t Obama is not a descendent of the people Walcott is talking about in this po= em? Some lovely ideas in the images, though. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: Daniel Godston To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 3:25:16 PM Subject: Forty Acres O Forty Acres: a poem for Barack Obama from Nobel winner Derek Walcott Out of the turmoil emerges one emblem, an engraving =97 a young Negro at dawn in straw hat and overalls, an emblem of impossible prophecy, a crowd dividing like the furrow which a mule has ploughed, parting for their president: a field of snow-flecked cotton forty acres wide, of crows with predictable omens that the young ploughman ignores for his unforgotten cotton-haired ancestors, while lined on one branch, is a tense court of bespectacled owls and, on the field's receding rim =97 a gesticulating scarecrow stamping with rage at him. The small plough continues on this lined page beyond the moaning ground, the lynching tree, the tornado's black vengeance, and the young ploughman feels the change in his veins, heart, muscles, tendons, till the land lies open like a flag as dawn's sure light streaks the field and furrows wait for the sower From The New York Times Online November 5, 2008 The West Indies poet Derek Walcott, winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize for Literature, writes exclusively for The Times to mark the election of Barack Obama as President http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/ar= ticle5088429.ece =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 12:03:02 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sometimes I wonder if anyone actually reads what anyone says and considers their actual arguments or if they just act like politicians and spout off their talking points regardless. The question of whether or not "being gay" is natural or a choice is not "beyond moot" to those againstgay marriage. To such people, their belief that being gay is a choice has everything to do with it. They would argue that choosing to be gay is like choosing to be a murderer, and insofar as both are immoral, both should be opposed. I, of course, to not consider this to be the case. I too understand that sexuality is fluid and that, as a species, Homo sapiens, like our close relatives the bonobos, are a bisexual species. Less bisexual than bonobos, but more so than chimpanzees. The fact that hazy sexuality is a biological fact in the human species is not moot, and is in fact a benefit to those who want to argue for civil rightsrecognitions. If you want to make any headway on this issue, you have to understand the position of the opposition. "Know your enemy as you know yourself and you will not fail." -- Sun Tzu. The reason so many liberals can't get anything done is that you think screeching at the top of your lungs is what gets things done, and you don't even bother to try to argue your point. And your lack of understanding of how people think -- especially religious people -- is what prevents you from understanding how Obama can win the Presidency, but the African-Americans and Hispanics who voted for them voted against the liberal social agenda. I'm trying to explain it to you, and all you have to say is that their reasons, which they consider to be central to their belief system, is merely a "moot point." It's condescending to them, and won't win any arguments with them. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: amy king To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 11:20:44 AM Subject: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] Troy, The question of being gay as "natural" or a "choice" is beyond moot. Since the constitution provides everyone equal rights - ahem - I should be allowed to marry whomever I choose, so long as they consent and choose me as well. To devolve into such debate over whether the selection of one's spouse is a choice, a coercion, a divine intervention, a prophetic union, or what-have-you is to distract from the purposes & securities provided by the constitution. That we *must* be separated by gender was not something our forefathers predicted would be problematic -- any more than when they wrote that some people weren't exactly human and could be owned as chattel. But in an age when it is beginning to be acknowledged that gender lines are, at best, blurred and complex, sexes are multiple (despite "corrective" measures - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/magazine/24intersexkids.html & http://www.jenellerose.com/htmlpostings/intersex_babies_controversy.htm), and, like it or not, gender is fluid, to create an amendment defining marriage as between a "man" and a "woman" is institutionalized bias. Devolving into the archaic debate of just what penis and vagina should be allowed a legally-sanctioned U.S. Gov't issued contract is silly and a distracting fallacy. Two people should be granted the same rights as any other two people as written in the constitution. This debate heralds back to the not-so-old one of whether it was "right" that blacks and whites be allowed the same rights under the law, as if the races were two different species (see anti-miscegenation laws). It wasn't so long ago that people thought it "unnatural" to see two separate skin tones loving one another. Some still think it "unnatural." The debate of nature vs nurture is itself a perversion. An aside: I think the passing of Prop 8 speaks moreover to the hope that by denying the GLBT community the right to marry will somehow abolish the very existence of that community -- at least, that's my pessimistic read on the whole debacle. Gays/lesbians are the latest "Other" just as immigrants remain "Alien" on the soil of a people obsessed with "getting and keeping theirs." Mark, Separations of symbols vs. legalities not withstanding, civil unions and domestic partnerships do NOT provide the same legal benefits that marriages do. It's all in the poetic wording, no? "Separate but equal" has historically betrayed everyone's "good" intentions. If "civil unions" were to be federally-mandated, then perhaps that would cover the legal protections that marriages do, but until then: What are some of the limitations of civil unions? Civil unions are different from marriage, and that difference has wide-ranging implications that make the two institutions unequal. Here is a quick look at some of the most significant differences: -Portability: Marriages are respected state to state for all purposes, but questions remain about how civil unions will be treated in other states. GLAD believes there are strong arguments that civil unions deserve respect across the country just like marriages. But the two appellate courts that have addressed the issue (in Connecticut and Georgia) have disrespected them based on the fact that their states do not grant civil unions themselves. -Ending a Civil Union: If you are married, you can get divorced in any state in which you are a resident. But if states continue to disrespect civil unions, there is no way to end the relationship other than by establishing residency in Vermont and filing for divorce there. This has already created problems for some couples who now have no way to terminate their legal commitment. -Federal Benefits: According to a 1997 GAO report, civil marriage brings with it at least 1,049 legal protections and responsibilities from the federal government, including the right to take leave from work to care for a family member, the right to sponsor a spouse for immigration purposes, and Social Security survivor benefits that can make a difference between old age in poverty and old age in security. Civil unions bring none of these critical legal protections. -Taxes & Public Benefits for the Family: Because the federal government does not respect civil unions, a couple with a civil union will be in a kind of limbo with regard to governmental functions performed by both state and federal governments, such as taxation, pension protections, provision of insurance for families, and means-tested programs like Medicaid. Even when states try to provide legal protections, they may be foreclosed from doing so in joint federal/state programs. -Filling out forms: Every day, we fill out forms that ask us whether we are married or single. People joined in a civil union don't fit into either category. People with civil unions should be able to identify themselves as a single family unit, but misrepresenting oneself on official documents can be considered fraud and carries potential serious criminal penalties. -Separate & Unequal -- Second-Class Status: Even if there were no substantive differences in the way the law treated marriages and civil unions, the fact that a civil union remains a separate status just for gay people represents real and powerful inequality. We've been down this road before in this country and should not kid ourselves that a separate institution just for gay people is a just solution here either. Our constitution requires legal equality for all. Including gay and lesbian couples within existing marriage laws is the fairest and simplest thing to do. How real are these differences between marriage and civil unions, given that a federal law and some state laws discriminate against all marriages of same-sex couples? Would any of this change immediately with marriage of same-sex couples? Probably not, because married same-sex couples will face other layers of discrimination against their marriages. Right now, a federal law denies recognition of same-sex unions conferred by any state for purposes of all federal programs and requirements and over 30 state laws do the same. Ending discrimination in marriage does not mean the end of all discrimination, but using the term "marriage" rather than "civil union" is an essential first step to opening the door and addressing whether continued governmental discrimination against civil marriages of gay and lesbian people makes sense. Marriage and civil unions remain different, both in practice and in principle. First, more than a dozen states have not taken a discriminatory position against civil marriages of gay and lesbian couples. In those states, civilly married gay and lesbian couples should be able to live and travel freely and without fear that their relationship will be disrespected. Second, even as to those states with discriminatory laws, legally married gay and lesbian couples from those states may well face some discrimination in some quarters, but their marriages will also be treated with legal respect in other arenas. Marriages are far more likely to be respected by others than newly minted "civil unions." Using the term marriage also prompts a discussion about fairness. Allowing same sex couples to marry (rather than enter a separate status) will allow gay and lesbian people to talk with their neighbors, their local elected officials, and the Congress about whether discrimination against their marriages is fair. Where gay and lesbian people and their children are part of the social fabric, is it right to continue discriminating against them in civil marriage? The federal government and states that have taken discriminatory positions against marriages of gay and lesbian couples could rethink those policies and go back to respecting state laws about marriage, as they have done for hundreds of years. In the end, we will not be able to have this discussion until gay and lesbian folks have what everyone else has: civil marriage. http://www.yffn.org/admin/spi/marriagevsunion.html http://lesbianlife.about.com/cs/wedding/a/unionvmarriage.htm Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 12:12:25 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What part is the funny mart? It's certainly corrupt, from top to bottom. An= d many of the industries, including the oil industry, are ran and owned by = the government, which makes it socialist. They also have extremely restrict= ive laws regarding land ownership that also leans the economy more socialis= t than otherwise. =0A=0ASome argue that preventing migrant workers into the= U.S. help foster market reforms as it would stop up the pressure valve of = unemployed Mexican workers. There's little evidence that revolution results= in market reform, though. It usually results in an even worse economic sys= tem. I do think, though, that helping Mexico eliminate the corruption would= go a long way, as the pressure from the poor to then be allowed to become = wealthy will result in market-oriented reforms. =0A=0ATroy=0A=0A=0A=0A_____= ___________________________=0AFrom: Ryan Daley =0ATo: PO= ETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 12:04:07 AM= =0ASubject: =0A=0A>=0A> the corrupt socialist government of Mexico=0A=0A=0A= What the ducks?=0A=0ATroy, I don't know whether to laugh at this comment or= just ask you to=0Aexplain to substantiate this. I do agree that the US sho= uld foster market=0Areforms in Mexico (the first way our govt. can do this = is by killing the=0Astreet price of drugs, as you pointed out.=0A=0AAny oth= er ideas? I'm curious (as I mentioned) because I hear, GORBY, tear=0Adown= this wall, and it's always unclear what the utterer means to replace=0Athe= wall with...=0A=0AGranted, it should not have been built, but what's happe= ns to fill the space=0Aleft by the wall?=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at = 4:02 PM, Troy Camplin wrote:=0A=0A> Replace the wal= l with a place for migrant workers to get registration and=0A> worker visas= .. The vast majority of illegals just want to work. We should=0A> have such = places on this side of the border because the corrupt socialist=0A> governm= ent of Mexico blocks migrant workers form getting such visas. They=0A> are = quite restrictive win their policies that way. The U.S. should in turn=0A> = encourage market reforms in Mexico so that people won't be forced to leave= =0A> their country to find work. Also, ending the war on drugs here and the= re=0A> would eliminate much of the corruption in Mexico and along our borde= r that=0A> helps foster poverty.=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> _____= ___________________________=0A> From: Ryan Daley =0A> To= : POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 12:08:2= 0 PM=0A> Subject:=0A>=0A> I'm all for pulling down the wall. Immigration po= licy is one-sided, unfair,=0A> and privileged, not to mention indicative/sy= mptomatic of the late-crisis of=0A> the nation-state. Having offered my vie= wpoint of the wall between the US=0A> and=0A> Mexico, I'm curious: what do = you all suggest be there in place of the wall=0A> and why should we pull it= down?=0A>=0A> On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 10:23 PM, cris cheek wrote:=0A>=0A> > HI Mark=0A> >=0A> > i utterly agree . . . end the war = on drugs=0A> >=0A> > pull down the wall going up between Mexico and USA for= another thing=0A> >=0A> > just for a start=0A> >=0A> > cris=0A> >=0A> >=0A= > >=0A> > On Nov 5, 2008, at 9:40 PM, Mark Weiss wrote:=0A> >=0A> > Before= we wet ourselves with excitement, let's=0A> >> remember that any democrat = who didn't get caught=0A> >> sleeping with household pets would have won th= is=0A> >> year, and that also in a lot of places black=0A> >> statewide off= ice holders are hardly novel. Obama=0A> >> ran a great campaign, and he was= a casting-office=0A> >> perfect candidate, and of course it didn't hurt=0A= > >> getting almost 100% of an enlarged black vote,=0A> >> but the states t= hat flipped were very close the=0A> >> last two times and moving steadily t= owards the=0A> >> democrats, mostly due to demographic changes.=0A> >> Low-= hanging fruit. On the other hand, in the deep=0A> >> south almost 80% of wh= ite folks voted against=0A> >> Obama. And three states voted against gay=0A= > >> marriage and two against affirmative action.=0A> >>=0A> >> I voted for= the man, given what my choices were,=0A> >> but for the life of me I can't= figure out why he=0A> >> ran (remember who else was in the democratic=0A> = >> field) except "yes I can." He's yet to express=0A> >> any opinion or pro= pose anything that would risk=0A> >> hurting him with his constituents, whi= ch is=0A> >> pretty amazing even for so short a time in=0A> >> politics. He= re are a few things he could do that=0A> >> would make me wild with enthusi= asm--hell, any one=0A> >> of them would make a convert of me--but might=0A>= >> cost him votes and affection the next time around.=0A> >>=0A> >> 1.Obam= a has supported subsidies for corn ethanol=0A> >> and for farming in genera= l, presumably because it=0A> >> pleased his Illinois constituents (it proba= bly=0A> >> didn't hurt him any in Iowa). These have each=0A> >> been disast= rous for Latin America (the subsidies=0A> >> made American corn cheaper tha= n the stuff grown=0A> >> at home, and the ethanol boom raised worldwide=0A>= >> prices life-threateningly high), which is why so=0A> >> many of them ha= ve been risking their lives to=0A> >> cross the border. Then there's the en= vironmental=0A> >> damage. Obama could propose ending the subsidies.=0A> >>= As a bonus, it would put him in a position to suggest that the EU do the= =0A> >> same.=0A> >>=0A> >> 2. Mexico is descending into chaos as its=0A> >= > government acts as our surrogate in fighting the=0A> >> drug lords. Colom= bia already went through this,=0A> >> for how many years? A change in US dr= ug laws=0A> >> would end the problem in minutes--no prohibition,=0A> >> no = value, and a fix costs pennies. A lot of=0A> >> states have moved (slowly) = towards reduced=0A> >> penalties, even decriminalization of possession=0A> = >> of some drugs. Even so, proposing=0A> >> decriminalization would cost vo= tes. Save a lot of money and lives, tho.=0A> >>=0A> >> 3. Need I mention th= e Cuban embargo? Obama will=0A> >> probably return travel rules to their Cl= inton-era=0A> >> status, but he's been pretty clear that Cuba has=0A> >> to= democratize to get the rest. He'd lose a lot of votes in Florida.=0A> >>= =0A> >> 4. Israel's economy is dependent on 12 billion a=0A> >> year in loa= n guarantees, without which no one=0A> >> would make the short-term loans t= hat all=0A> >> economies need. That's the muscle that would get=0A> >> them= to the bargaining table toot sweet. Of=0A> >> course it would cost most of= the Jewish vote, which is why no one's done=0A> >> it.=0A> >>=0A> >> I cou= ld probably come up with a few more. I'm waiting to be convinced.=0A> >>=0A= > >> Mark=0A> >>=0A> >> At 05:20 PM 11/5/2008, you wrote:=0A> >>=0A> >>> Hi= Stephen,=0A> >>>=0A> >>> I'm In Chicago, and while I didn't make it out to= Grant Park last=0A> night,=0A> >>> today there is a real feeling of uplift= in the air. There's still a lot=0A> >>> of=0A> >>> rubble to dig out of, b= ut it now feels as if we might just make it.=0A> >>>=0A> >>> Larry=0A> >>>= =0A> >>> http://larryodean.blogspot.com=0A> >>> http://larryodean.com=0A> >= >>=0A> >>> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 23:20:18 -0800, Stephen Vincent <=0A> steph48= 4@PACBELL.NET=0A> >>> >=0A> >>> wrote:=0A> >>>=0A> >>>> I don't know how ma= ny of us share my feeling that Obama's victory=0A> feels=0A> >>>> like we -= as a republic (and, perhaps, the globe) - have (finally)=0A> been=0A> >>>>= pulled out of an iron-lung, one in which we have been encased for 8=0A> >>= >> long,=0A> >>>> paralytic years.=0A> >>>> I am in San Francisco - and ear= lier this night in Berkeley - but there=0A> >>>> is=0A> >>>> music and danc= ing in the streets. Astonished all & happy happy happy!=C2=0A> >>>> I know = so much needs to be rebuilt, etc., etc., etc. but what is now=0A> >>>>=0A> = >>> feels=0A> >>>=0A> >>>> good, good & real good.=0A> >>>>=0A> >>>> Whew!= =0A> >>>>=0A> >>>> Stephen V=0A> >>>> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/=0A> >= >>>=0A> >>>=0A> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> >>> The Poetics List i= s moderated & does not accept=0A> >>> all posts. Check guidelines & sub/uns= ub info:=0A> >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> >>>=0A> >>= =0A> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> >> The Poetics List is moderated &= does not accept all posts. Check=0A> >> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A> h= ttp://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> >>=0A> >=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all p= osts. Check=0A> guidelines=0A> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/p= oetics/welcome.html=0A> >=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poe= tics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A> & = sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A>=0A> =3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accep= t all posts. Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/= poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics Lis= t is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub in= fo: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 12:34:43 -0800 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: Forty Acres In-Reply-To: <551263.71855.qm@web65107.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Prison: both Wole Soyinka and Mandella payed their dues. Obama's gifts are = immense. & while i'm cynical of his new age sound bites, "hope", "change", = whatever, what more can one do but give the guys integrity the benefit of a= doubt? Really, when Obama spoke of change, he still needed an enormous sum= of cash to play the political game. HOW does one CHANGE all of that??? --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Barry Schwabsky wrote: From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Forty Acres To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 11:57 AM And "son of an African chief" evokes Nelson Mandela, no? Not a bad thing, I hope... ________________________________ From: Mairead Byrne To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, 8 November, 2008 3:10:52 PM Subject: Re: Forty Acres Gabrielle, to my ears even your terms "son of an african chief, went to ruling class school in hawaii" rock the White House. Spinning in the huge drum of hope-- Mairead >>> welford@HAWAII.EDU 11/08/08 12:34 AM >>> i have been thinking about that quite a bit, yes.=A0 it's not his genealogy at all.=A0 son of an african chief, went to ruling class school in hawaii..= . all adds to the dampness of my celebration.=A0 small bits of hope keep poking me in the ribs but not very hard.=A0 g Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Fri, 7 Nov 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > Not to be a wet blanket, but does anyone notice the irony in the fact tha= t Obama is not a descendent of the people Walcott is talking about in this po= em? Some lovely ideas in the images, though. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: Daniel Godston To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 3:25:16 PM Subject: Forty Acres O Forty Acres: a poem for Barack Obama from Nobel winner Derek Walcott Out of the turmoil emerges one emblem, an engraving =97 a young Negro at dawn in straw hat and overalls, an emblem of impossible prophecy, a crowd dividing like the furrow which a mule has ploughed, parting for their president: a field of snow-flecked cotton forty acres wide, of crows with predictable omens that the young ploughman ignores for his unforgotten cotton-haired ancestors, while lined on one branch, is a tense court of bespectacled owls and, on the field's receding rim =97 a gesticulating scarecrow stamping with rage at him. The small plough continues on this lined page beyond the moaning ground, the lynching tree, the tornado's black vengeance, and the young ploughman feels the change in his veins, heart, muscles, tendons, till the land lies open like a flag as dawn's sure light streaks the field and furrows wait for the sower From The New York Times Online November 5, 2008 The West Indies poet Derek Walcott, winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize for Literature, writes exclusively for The Times to mark the election of Barack Obama as President http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/ar= ticle5088429.ece =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 16:01:54 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Edward Foster Subject: New Simon Petter book MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 T24gdGhlIHdheSBEZWNlbWJlciA1dGg6DQoNClNpbW9uIFBldHRldCdzIEhFQVJUSA0KDQrigJxU aGUgY29tcGxldGUgd29ya3MgLS0gc28gZmFyIC0tIG9mIGNvbnRlbXBvcmFyeSBBbWVyaWNhbiBh bmQgQnJpdGlzaCANCnBvZXRyeeKAmXMgbW9zdCBtZXRpY3Vsb3VzIGNyYWZ0c3BlcnNvbi4gV2Ug ZGlnIHRoZSBwdXJpdHksIGRvZ2dlZCBsb3ZlLCANCmFuZCBhcnRpc3RpYyBkZXZvdGlvbiBvZiB0 aGlzIHJhcmUgcGVyc29uYWdlLiBBIGhpZ2hseSByZWNvbW1lbmRlZCANCnZvbHVtZS7igJ0g4oCU QWxpY2UgTm90bGV5DQoNCkZvciBkZXRhaWxzLCBzZWU6DQoNCiANCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYW1hem9u LmNvbS9IZWFydGgtU2ltb24tUGV0dGV0L2RwLzE1ODQ5ODA2MTMvcmVmPXNyXzFfMT9pZT1VVEY4 JnM9Ym9va3MmcWlkPTEyMjYxNzc3NjAmc3I9OC0xDQoNCkFuZCBmb3IgYSBuZXcgd29yayBzZWU6 IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYnJvb2tseW5yYWlsLm9yZy8yMDA4LzEwL3BvZXRyeS9wb2V0cnk= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 14:43:07 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Paul Nelson Subject: Obama MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii As I read the responses on this list to Obama's election, my first reaction to those who'd criticize is ARE YOU KIDDING?!? Let's give him a chance to actually take the office and make a few decisions, let's give him a freakin' HONEYMOON for God's sake! The rest of the world, save Iran and a few other places seem excited: http://obama2008.s3.amazonaws.com/headlines.html And the Onion had some classic responses: McCain Gets Hammered At Local VFWhttp://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/mccain_gets_hammered_at and Hillary Clinton Resumes Attacking Obama http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/hillary_clinton_resumes (You could substitute Mark Weiss for Hillary Clinton) and Black Man Given Nation's Worst Jobhttp://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/black_man_given_nations among others. What does not seem to be clear to many on this list is hinted at in today's Globe and Mail by Michael Valpy: an original design of black man as cool child of the U.S. vision and its enlightenment. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20081108.OBAMALEADER08/TPStory/ Yes, here is a vision of an enlightened U.S. leader. How can we not revel in this for a long time. I'm not saying to give him a free hand to continue some of the pernicious policies of the last 8 years, or the last 50 in the case of the US Blockade of Cuba, but let's do cut him some slack, eh? Paul Nelson Global Voices Radio SPLAB! American Sentences Organic Poetry Poetry Postcard Blog Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 15:21:16 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Richard Jeffrey Newman Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] In-Reply-To: <107780.5775.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Amy wrote, in response to Mark: > If "civil unions" were to be federally-mandated, then perhaps that would cover the legal protections that marriages do It has long seemed to me, given the kind of argument put forth by Joe Biden in the vice-presidential debate, about marriage being a religious issue on which the state ought not to intrude and his using that as a screen to hide behind when he says he opposes same-sex marriage, that the solution ought to be to rename "civil marriage," which has nothing to do with any church, as "civil union," and then let the religious institutions argue about whether they want to allow same sex couples to be married within their bounds. After all, it is not the religious ceremony per se that confers any of the civil benefits of marriage, and people who want to have the blessing of their particular church ought to be arguing with that church, not the state. Or maybe there is something I am missing. Richard ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 17:22:56 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] In-Reply-To: <474082.11909.qm@web46216.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Troy, I know this will be difficult to admit, but your reply, and often times you= r style of arguing here, is hypocritical in its condescension.=A0=20 Having grown up on the Bible Belt in Stone Mountain, GA, I used to be one o= f those "religious people" and, as such, continue to communicate with them.= =A0 My response to you *is* my response to those religious people you've de= termined I don't understand. However, I don't need you to explain to me "how people think" and how to re= spond, verbatim, to "African Americans and Hispanics" -- for you to be so e= lementary and condescending is just another tactic to avoid engaging my rea= sonable response to your arguments, which I find as base as those put forth= by religious people you dubbed yourself an expert on. Now, I'll explain to you how my reply, as an argument, works. 1.=A0 I refuse to engage with religious folks, and anyone else, on the basi= s of the "Nature vs. Nurture" level simply because to do so inevitably devo= lves into a moral discussion typically reliant on the Holy Bible as the aut= hority of choice.=A0 I don't base my argument on what the Holy Bible claims= , but instead, keep the argument framed within the rights provided by the U= .S. Constitution.=A0=20 Just because "that's how religious people think" doesn't mean I must conced= e and allow them to use that bible as the foundation of this argument (reca= ll separation of church and state).=A0 I can engage them without such conce= ssions -- and do.=A0 In fact, the argument for civil rights, however based = in morality vs. immortality for them, is truly not about whose moral barome= ter is correct at all, as I imagine you know -- it is a matter of rights *f= or everyone* despite and including our differences, even moral ones, as ack= nowledged by separation of church and state. 2.=A0 My calling the "Nature vs. Nurture" debate a perversion should have t= ipped you off, since the rest didn't.=A0 They like to call homosexuality a = "perversion," but debating its existence as one of nature v. nurture to det= ermine who gets what rights is itself a perversion.=A0=20 =A0=20 3.=A0 Further, you have included in your "argument" the very kind of thinki= ng religious people resort to -- that of arguing the very existence of homo= sexuality as "proven" by its existence in nature.=A0 Who cares?=A0 (That's = a rhetorical one, Troy.=A0 I know who cares.)=A0 The point is that you argu= e a biological basis for homosexuality as evidenced in the behavior of anim= als.=A0 Religious folks will argue in return that we aren't animals and sho= uldn't be gay just because they might be by some freak of nature.=A0 (Plus = they like to take being gay a step further with this argument and ask if we= 'd like to marry goats next -- with a snort and a 'ha ha' to finalize the a= bsurdity of the entire proposition).=A0=20 Why resort to such tactics?=A0 Just because they do?=A0 Just because that's= where they might find their moral footing?=A0 Nearly equating homosexualit= y with animals (I know, you didn't) only denigrates any merit for seeking r= ights as people who are different than them -- despite our differences, eve= n in morality -- and certainly does not change their minds.=A0 It never has= .=A0 Bringing the proof of animal behavior into the argument only distracts= and opens the door for tasteless jokes at the expense of any legitimacy fo= r the claim to civil rights for each and every person in this country.=A0 (= I say in the face of whether we should exist or not, we do and we will not = go away, marriage rights or no.=A0 Whether we choose to be gay or are "born= that way", who I love is my *choice* and I certainly have the right to cho= ose). Finally, characterizing my reply as "screeching" and labeling it as the "li= beral social agenda" -- even only by association -- as well as claiming I d= idn't read your post in favor of "spouting off talking points" is a typical= ly sexist admonishment and so much ad hominem name calling used to avoid en= gaging the tenets of the argument I actually laid out in direct reply to yo= ur post.=A0 In this elementary manner, you get to ride in on your noble ste= ed and re-frame our discussion by writing me off as some sort of lil' unwor= ldly & uninformed lady who needs the religious-minded explained to me so th= at I can "know my enemy" via another nobleman you conjure, Sun Tzu.=A0=20 I'm sorry; I won't bat my eyes and be impressed that you "found my naivete = out."=A0 Instead, I'll suggest you engage with the actual basis of my argum= ent and ask you to please stop being unnecessarily instructive.=A0 Consider= us on equal footing intellectually and go from there.=A0=20 In response to your last post regarding why folks who voted for Obama would= also vote for Prop 8, I would say that the African Americans and Hispanics= you cite were not solely responsible for its passage.=A0 Yes, I understand= on an exit poll that they voted for it 7 to 10, their turn-out was up perc= entage points, etc.=A0 But this Prop 8 campaign was quite well-funded by th= e Mormon church and was built and thrived on fear.=A0 McCain also attempted= to run his campaign on fear; his tactic lost where the Mormons scared a go= od number of Californians into believing all sorts of ridiculous notions re= liant on the idea that marriage itself would be threatened and worthless if= everyone were allowed that right.=A0 Regarding the communities you name:= =A0 the LGBT community did not go into those neighborhoods and educate; the= Mormon fear campaign ran rampant, hence the exit polls.=A0=A0 It's a compl= icated mix of who sold who on what fear; who spoke out for their rights and where, and who simply doesn't care if everyone has the same rights, partic= ularly where their own aren't threatened.=A0=20 But to take on the religious tenets of the Mormon church (Joseph Smith's id= eals, no less!) and debate them on their way of thinking, particularly in t= erms of Nature vs. Nurture as you suggest, certainly will not advance the f= ight for those rights nor will it render the fear mongering ineffective.=A0= To change the ways of thinking about this issue and frame the debate in le= gal terms will go a lot further, and has historically done so.=A0 In other = words:=A0 It's okay if you don't like my lifestyle, or if you don't like my= skin tone, or you think my religion is not as good as yours; it's your rig= ht to think that way, but I'm a citizen of this country, pay my taxes, part= icipate in the cogs of our economy, and am a citizen under the eyes of the = law -- ergo, I deserve my rights the same as every other person in this cou= ntry.=A0=20 Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark= ] To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 3:03 PM Sometimes I wonder if anyone actually reads what anyone says and considers = their actual arguments or if they just act like politicians and spout off their talking points regardless. The question of whether or not "being gay" is natural or a choice is not "beyond moot" to those againstgay marriage. To such people, their belief that being gay is a choice has everything to do with it. They would = argue that choosing to be gay is like choosing to be a murderer, and insofar as b= oth are immoral, both should be opposed. I, of course, to not consider this to = be the case. I too understand that sexuality is fluid and that, as a species, = Homo sapiens, like our close relatives the bonobos, are a bisexual species. Less bisexual than bonobos, but more so than chimpanzees. The fact that hazy sexuality is a biological fact in the human species is not moot, and is in = fact a benefit to those who want to argue for civil rightsrecognitions. If you w= ant to make any headway on this issue, you have to understand the position of t= he opposition. "Know your enemy as you know yourself and you will not fail." -- Sun Tzu. The reason so many liberals can't get anything done is that you think screeching at the top of your lungs is wha= t gets things done, and you don't even bother to try to argue your point. And your lack of understanding of how people think -- especially religious peop= le -- is what prevents you from understanding how Obama can win the Presidency, b= ut the African-Americans and Hispanics who voted for them voted against the li= beral social agenda. I'm trying to explain it to you, and all you have to say is that their reasons, which they consider to be central to their belief syste= m, is merely a "moot point." It's condescending to them, and won't win any arguments with them. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: amy king To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 11:20:44 AM Subject: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] Troy, The question of being gay as "natural" or a "choice" is beyond moot. Since the constitution provides everyone equal rights - ahem = - I should be allowed to marry whomever I choose, so long as they consent and c= hoose me as well. To devolve into such debate over whether the selection of one'= s spouse is a choice, a coercion, a divine intervention, a prophetic union, o= r what-have-you is to distract from the purposes & securities provided by the constitution. That we *must* be separated by gender was not something our forefathers predicted would be problematic -- any more than when they wrote= that some people weren't exactly human and could be owned as chattel. =20 But in an age when it is beginning to be acknowledged that gender lines are= , at best, blurred and complex, sexes are multiple (despite "corrective" measures - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/magazine/24intersexkids.html & http://www.jenellerose.com/htmlpostings/intersex_babies_controversy.htm), a= nd, like it or not, gender is fluid, to create an amendment defining marriage a= s between a "man" and a "woman" is institutionalized bias.=20 Devolving into the archaic debate of just what penis and vagina should be allowed a legally-sanctioned U.S. Gov't issued contract is silly and a distracting fallacy. Two people should be granted the same rights as any o= ther two people as written in the constitution. This debate heralds back to the not-so-old one of whether it was "right" that blacks and whites be allowed the same rights under the law, as if the races were two different species (see anti-miscegenation laws). It wasn't so long ago that people thought it "unnatural" to see two separate skin tones loving one another. Some still think it "unnatural." The debate of nature vs nurture is itself a perversion. =20 An aside: I think the passing of Prop 8 speaks moreover to the hope that b= y denying the GLBT community the right to marry will somehow abolish the very existence of that community -- at least, that's my pessimistic read on the whole debacle. Gays/lesbians are the latest "Other" just as immigrants remain "Alien" on the soil of a people obsessed with "getting and keeping theirs." =20 Mark,=20 Separations of symbols vs. legalities not withstanding, civil unions and domestic partnerships do NOT provide the same legal benefits that marriages= do.=20 It's all in the poetic wording, no? "Separate but equal" has historically betrayed everyone's "good" intentions. If "civil unions" were to be federally-mandated, then perhaps that would cover the legal protections that marriages do, but until then: What are some of the limitations of civil unions? =20 Civil unions are different from marriage, and that difference has wide-ranging implications that make the two institutions unequal. Here is a quick look at some of the most significant differences:=20 =20 -Portability: =20 Marriages are respected state to state for all purposes, but questions remain about how civil unions will be treated in other states.=20 GLAD believes there are strong arguments that civil unions deserve respect across the country just like marriages. But the two appellate courts that have addressed the issue (in Connecticut and Georgia) have disrespected them based on the fact that their states do not grant civi= l unions themselves. =20 -Ending a Civil Union: =20 If you are married, you can get divorced in any state in which you are = a resident. But if states continue to disrespect civil unions, there is no way to end the relationship other than by establishing residency in Vermont and filing for divorce there. This has already created problems for some couples who now have no way to terminate their legal commitment. =20 -Federal Benefits: =20 According to a 1997 GAO report, civil marriage brings with it at least 1,049 legal protections and responsibilities from the federal government, including the right to take leave from work to care for a family member, the right to sponsor a spouse for immigration purposes, and Social Security survivor benefits that can make a difference betwee= n old age in poverty and old age in security. Civil unions bring none of these critical legal protections. =20 -Taxes & Public Benefits for the Family: =20 Because the federal government does not respect civil unions, a couple with a civil union will be in a kind of limbo with regard to governmental functions performed by both state and federal governments, such as taxation, pension protections, provision of insurance for families, and means-tested programs like Medicaid. Even when states try to provide legal protections, they may be foreclosed from doing so in joint federal/state programs. =20 -Filling out forms: =20 Every day, we fill out forms that ask us whether we are married or single. People joined in a civil union don't fit into either category. People with civil unions should be able to identify themselves as a single family unit, but misrepresenting oneself on official documents can be considered fraud and carries potential serious criminal penalties.=20 =20 -Separate & Unequal -- Second-Class Status: =20 Even if there were no substantive differences in the way the law treate= d marriages and civil unions, the fact that a civil union remains a separate status just for gay people represents real and powerful inequality. We've been down this road before in this country and should not kid ourselves that a separate institution just for gay people is a just solution here either. Our constitution requires legal equality for all. Including gay and lesbian couples within existing marriage laws is the fairest and simplest thing to do. =20 How real are these differences between marriage and civil unions, given that a federal law and some state laws discriminate against all marriages of same-sex couples? =20 Would any of this change immediately with marriage of same-sex couples? Probably not, because married same-sex couples will face other layers o= f discrimination against their marriages. Right now, a federal law denies recognition of same-sex unions conferred by any state for purposes of all federal programs and requirements and over 30 state laws do the same. Ending discrimination in marriage does not mean the end of all discrimination, but using the term "marriage" rather than "civil union" is an essential first step to opening the door and addressing whether continued governmental discrimination against civil marriages of gay an= d lesbian people makes sense.=20 =20 Marriage and civil unions remain different, both in practice and in principle.=20 =20 First, more than a dozen states have not taken a discriminatory positio= n against civil marriages of gay and lesbian couples. In those states, civilly married gay and lesbian couples should be able to live and travel freely and without fear that their relationship will be disrespected. =20 Second, even as to those states with discriminatory laws, legally married gay and lesbian couples from those states may well face some discrimination in some quarters, but their marriages will also be treated with legal respect in other arenas. Marriages are far more likely to be respected by others than newly minted "civil unions." =20 Using the term marriage also prompts a discussion about fairness. Allowing same sex couples to marry (rather than enter a separate status= ) will allow gay and lesbian people to talk with their neighbors, their local elected officials, and the Congress about whether discrimination against their marriages is fair. Where gay and lesbian people and their children are part of the social fabric, is it right to continue discriminating against them in civil marriage? The federal government and states that have taken discriminatory positions against marriages o= f gay and lesbian couples could rethink those policies and go back to respecting state laws about marriage, as they have done for hundreds of years. In the end, we will not be able to have this discussion until gay and lesbian folks have what everyone else has: civil marriage. =20 http://www.yffn.org/admin/spi/marriagevsunion.html http://lesbianlife.about.com/cs/wedding/a/unionvmarriage.htm Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 15:39:17 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0811060502n16701681h1c78047379ddec3f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Murat Thank you for your kind words re the poem. It began with a few words taken from three places combined with all the rest my own words a few words, a fragment will be so riveting, it seizes one, is convulsive and sings, has rhythms, so one has there as a starting point--and riffs off of that-- and all one needs often enough are just two words, three words-- images created by the two or three words trigger involuntary associations and linkings and one is traveling-! Paul Metcalf used to write me that my writing belonged to the "Dark French" as he called it--and noted that at the same time in the darkness is always what he saw being to him a Catholic light--always somewhere a cigarette tip is glowing, or a candle, the flame of alighter beneath a spoon cooking dope, or a fire lit in a garbage can--or by a plastique explosion etc-- though i think Illumination whether sacred or profane is a very common theme the world over-- the way you write of i also see-with liight breaking through into darkness, through the most slender aperture in a thick wall--cracks and crevasses-- illumination is a light that can come both from within--and without--a being, an object, a scene, an event-- it can have simply a physical meaning, or a spiritual, or one closer to the sense it has in a painting--and in Illuminated Manuscripts"-- since very young i have had many very powerful experinces simply from watching light move on a surface--or through dust motes--reflect suddenly--and blaze-- some times these moments of a mystical illumination are so unexpected and so swift--they are travel of indeed light speeds--intuition's lightning quantum leaps-- and once in a while they have such a fitting grandeur that one --is overwhelmed-- though it is almost one feels a sterotype yet still so beautiful and powerful it does indeed at that moment powerfully change one's life illumination also lights the writings everywhere existing, alive--that do not need alphabets nor books for support-- nor want to be cooped up in their prisons-- mobile, guerilla, nomadic, fugitive- "light on her/his feet"! On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 5:02 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > David, > > This is a wonderful poem. I assume it is yours, which is an interesting > word > within the framework ownership/appropriation we have been discussing. To me > it has a fascinating fusion of German Romanticism and Emily Dickinson. > > "Profane illumination" indeed. Though Benjamin's thought is godless, it is > religious, particularly in the Baudelaire/translation and "The art of the > Storyteller" essays and in *The Arcades Projec*t. The illuminations, which > can also be seen as visual annotations to texts, pour out from cracks and > crevices, between quotations, the seemingly wrong headed, meandering > questions he asks. He is able to see industrial industrial constructs, > their > flatsom and jetsom, as dreams. I wonder my phrase "godless Sufism" has a > connection to that. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 4:34 PM, David Chirot > wrote: > > > Dear Murat: > > > > Oh my goodness, no-- > > I am not disagreeing with you at all, Murat. > > > > The section you quote here is just me rattling off more of variations of > > ways appropriation can be and has been applied through time. > > Forgive the sudden outburst of this "flash flood" of words words and more > > words! > > > > I think you know one of the great many reasons I admire and respect your > > work so much--not only the translations--but also the poetry and the book > > on > > photography and your essays-- > > is that you have precisely the empirical approach to your thoughts and > > words > > that you note--so that at one point in time, the Benjamin seems > > incomprehensible, fantastic, yet through working continually one breaks > > through into understanding--"a profane illumination" occurs, and one does > > indeed recognize the actions and presences of the "chips of messianic > Time" > > as they are Illuminated-- > > > > Many of Benjamin's works have had a profound effect on myself also. > > > > My ragged ideas and "works" have a similar approach with yours as they > > come > > through time, and along the way, one jettisons a good number--and finds > > more > > to think on, and in turn these link or not via associations with previous > > ones, in turn creating new series of associations--only through practice > > and > > walking around all over and in all sorts of places and hauling them about > > and exposing them to the elements --does one arrive at some further > depths > > as these seep in through the various crackings and crevices, crevasses > and > > collapses of decompostions, synchronicties, corrosions-- > > a prolonged series of of seismic shiftings which continually keep things > on > > the move-- > > and here and there the quantum leap of the unexpected, the uncanny, a > > sudden > > running directly in to a wall--of graffiti of the eslehweres that tumble > > out > > of the skies > > --as ever, in friendship and respect-- > > david > > > > > > > > through the chink in the fence-- > > > > a strip of sky & earthen wall-- > > > > in what faraway land > > > > among hostile forests-- > > > > to sit in someone else's room > > among books not mine > > & write about the sky > > > > > > to pen ghosts' writings, > > scrawl notations > > > > of phantom songs-- > > > > the untold, the unwritten > > > > scenes-- > > hidden,-- > > > > ever-- in plain sight > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 9:15 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat > > wrote: > > > > > "actually in a very good translation of a poem may exist every bit as > > much > > > manipulation for a purpose as there does in what you think of as one > with > > > bad intentions and so done poorly-- > > > > > > precisely the survival of certain texts through time has depended in > ways > > > upon the directions they were shifted by translators who wished to keep > > > them > > > alive-- > > > or, in order to adjust them to seem to be the precursors of a current > > > doctrine, whether of poetry or of the state or other institutions--" > > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > I am not sure where we are disagreeing. The "misreading" I am talking > > about > > > does bend the original into "a vision of the original." The translator > > > translates that vision which may create consequences on both sides of > the > > > occasion. That is, for example, what Ezra Pound's "The Seafarer" does. > It > > > (re-)introduces a music of consonants into English poetry, in > opposition > > to > > > Victorian sonorities. > > > > > > I think you are reacting to the categorical tone of some of my > arguments. > > > The truth is I do not believe in false modesty, and I do believe there > > are > > > good and bad translations. I am trying to explain what I believe > > transforms > > > translation into a poetic genre -like the lyric or epic or dramatic- > > rather > > > than a method of reproduction. You also suggest, I think, that my view > of > > > translation is abstract, only an application of Benjamin's specific > ideas > > > of > > > translation into a method. The reality is that my ideas of translation > > are > > > derived completely empirically, out of my thirty years of practice. > Only > > > when my ideas of translation developed did I begin to see its > > > correspondence > > > with the ideas expressed in "The Task of the Translator." In effect, > when > > I > > > first read that essay, I completely misunderstood it, thinking his > > > references to "intentio" of a language and to "ideal language" more or > > less > > > gibberish. Only during the writing of the Turkish anthology, developing > > my > > > concept of "eda," did I become aware of the profundity of those aspects > > of > > > his essay. In other words, as you say about "The Raven" and "The > > Philosophy > > > of Composition," Benjamin's essay become for me a means of framing my > > idea > > > of eda, its foreignness, within a half comprehensible Western > framework. > > > Actually, to create "eda," I had to "misread" both Turkish poetry and > > > Walter > > > Benjamin "to my own purposes." That does not mean that "eda," which > > > embodies > > > for me the image of translation, does not say something truthful about > > both > > > Turkish poetry and Walter Benjamin. > > > > > > Affectionately, > > > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 5:50 PM, David Chirot > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Murat And Barry: > > > > > > > > > > > > Barry--many thanks for your having checked on the translations and in > > > > comparison with others as you > > > > call them, Straight translations"-- > > > > > > > > though perhaps Spicer may have made use of existing translations to > > > create > > > > his own versions of these translations-- > > > > rather than having made the translations directly from the Spanish-- > > > > (this method is used in many cases actually as a form of translation, > > > > rather > > > > than necessarily "After"--as one may have a translator who knos the > > > > language > > > > make the "straight translation" and the poet then make use of this to > > > > create > > > > heir own translation using the raw translated words-- > > > > -- > > > > (i only suggest these as possibilities-among many---) > > > > > > > > Murat--I think you misunderstand me-- > > > > > > > > what i am trying to present is not ONE version of what translation or > > > > appropriation may be, nor to say that there exists one method only as > > the > > > > most common, nor two nor three-- > > > > > > > > quite the contrary--what interests me are the ceaseless > proliferations > > > > brought about by translations and appropriations--indeed their "After > > > > effects" and further translations and appropriations through time-- > > > > > > > > i think perhaps that what you have found for yourself is a method and > > > > authority in which your profoundly believe and make use of-- > > > > > > > > and judged by this manner, none other really has the same level of > > > > existence > > > > and authority--- > > > > > > > > so, in a sense, the single-mindedness of purpose becomes impatient > with > > > the > > > > suggestions of other methods and examples however recognized, > actual. > > > > weird, vague, bad or indifferent as well as "authorized" that exist > in > > al > > > > their teeming fecund chaotic rhizomatic voyagings-- > > > > > > > > (i'm not a descendant of French-Indian Voyageurs for nothing,after > > > all!--) > > > > > > > > what interests me is that from one single word in any language may > > become > > > > such proliferations of meanings, events, personages, writers, > singers, > > > > painters, all the world in fact, soldiers, forgers, bombers, martyrs, > > > > presidents and prostitutes--Bible thumpers, gangbangers, all of > > > them--poets > > > > and pall bearers, carnival clowns and congress persons-- > > > > > > > > ghosts, ghost writers, Posthumous ghosthumous writers--"After > effects" > > of > > > > an > > > > After writing of one's own writings such as Musil's early 1930's > > > > collection of his "Posthumous works of a living author"-- > > > > > > > > so it is that i find what you do with translation very beautiful, and > > at > > > > the > > > > same time i carry in mind many others ways of translating, and ways > of > > > > appropriating, whatever their motives and intentions--simply to bear > in > > > > mind > > > > that there is no fixed limit on what may be sounded within a word's > > > > depths-- > > > > nor perhaps in the depths of the minds and hearts which make use of > > > these- > > > > > > > > As i noted before, through a series of posts i am hoping to keep > alive > > > both > > > > the positive and negative as well as the indifferent and careless or > > > > accidental aspects of appropriations and translations-- > > > > > > > > and as well their spilling out across boundaries, so that a poetical > > text > > > > lands somewhere else entirely, part of a land dispute--or a conflict > > over > > > > the types of flowers which oonce appeared in a region--and who may > have > > > > been > > > > the ones who planted them--and many other thousands of things > besides-- > > > > oepn the newspaper, and there one may find daily some example at work > > of > > > > this proliferation having effects and After effects in all manner of > > ways > > > > and means-- > > > > > > > > In one letter, a more negative aspect may seem to be at the fore, and > > in > > > > the > > > > next a more positive-- > > > > this is to indicate that sense of language of Burroughs' "no final > > > glossary > > > > may be made of words whose intentions are fugitive"-- > > > > > > > > actually I hadn't been thinking at all of the Guantanamo Poems about > > > which > > > > i > > > > have on line some essays--but rather the daily uses of translation as > > > well > > > > as the poetic ones, for to me what is intersting is how these are > > > > interrelated, rather than separate-- > > > > > > > > which is one of the bases for my series re "The New Extreme > > Experimental > > > > Poetry and Arts"-- > > > > > > > > actually in a very good translation of a poem may exist every bit as > > much > > > > manipulation for a purpose as there does in what you think of as one > > with > > > > bad intentions and so done poorly-- > > > > > > > > precisely the survival of certain texts through time has depended in > > ways > > > > upon the directions they were shifted by translators who wished to > keep > > > > them > > > > alive-- > > > > or, in order to adjust them to seem to be the precursors of a current > > > > doctrine, whether of poetry or of the state or other institutions-- > > > > > > > > this is why translations are always being done over again, new ones > > > > appearing to displace the old--in order to give a sense of the works > > > being > > > > "part of and important for our times" as well as for their own-- > > > > > > > > this is a matter of"poetry politics" often just as much as it may be > of > > > > "national politics"-- > > > > > > > > so it is that a current poet may give one a version which is far more > > in > > > > tune with the current kinds of poetry considered the most important > or > > > > best-- > > > > > > > > and this new version may not be much like a previous "outdated" one-- > > > > > > > > and yet considered to be a very good one in part because it does > > indeed, > > > > make the translated poet much more "available" to the modern reader > -- > > > > > > > > i am not disagreeing with you or Benjamin, at all, but simply saying > > that > > > > what interests me personally is the proliferations of possibilities > of > > > > appropriation and translation, which extend writing into other realms > > of > > > > endeavor, and create After effects quite unexpected by the original > > > > source-- > > > > > > > > the danger of thinking that there are only certain models of > > translation > > > in > > > > existence by which to examine translations and to create them > with--is > > > that > > > > there will become a creation of forms of > > > conventionalism-conformity---which > > > > in a sense denies the immense variety of possibilities, and in so > > doing, > > > > actually makes it easier for other more sinister versions to slip > > > > themselves > > > > into the mix and not be noticed, or simply waved to the side--as > being > > of > > > > little importance--or quality--when in fact they may be carrying > along > > > > something of great significance, for the bad or good--yet which bears > > > being > > > > aware of-- > > > > > > > > in a sense one might say that i am not driven by a "rationale" so > much > > as > > > > by > > > > a sense never ceasing of amazement, of being astounded, by the ways > in > > > > which > > > > words are used, their incredible paradoxes and paradoxical After and > > > "side > > > > effects," the ways in which they can be used to sell anything from > Gods > > > to > > > > garbage bags, Presidents to pills--and as well make poetry that stops > > the > > > > blood cold-- > > > > > > > > in turn the sense of amazement has its companion, > > > skepticism--questioning, > > > > awareness of quantum leaps and uncertainty--of camouflages and the > > beings > > > > of > > > > things wccih do not want to be as it were recognized--translated or > > > > appropriated--not because of "resistances"--but something else, an > > > > outside-- > > > > > > > > "The hills know but do not tell"--as Emily Dickinson puts it-- > > > > and the Tao which can be named is not the Tao-- > > > > > > > > > > > > in the word "After" in Spicer's title is also another meaning, > besides > > > the > > > > predatory one you write of-- which is that this is written as it were > > > > "after > > > > the affair is over" in order in a sense to comprehend what Spicer is > > > > finding > > > > are its "After effects"-- > > > > > > > > Spicer indicates this in the "Last letter" and also in the final > stanza > > > of > > > > "Radar" the postscript poem dedicated to marianne moore which "ends" > > the > > > > book and the letter, the final letter to Lorca. > > > > > > > > These words of a vanished forever ghost lover are, to me at any rate, > > > > heartbreakingly beautiful--almost too much to bear to read-- > > > > > > > > Here is both the "After" the summer affair of love--and also--the > > "After > > > > effects"--as Spicer depicts them (with on the way, in this last > letter, > > > > also > > > > a discussion of "Poe's mechanical chess player."--Again, an After > > effect > > > of > > > > Poe as I have been discussing these-- > > > > > > > > From the letter's third paragraph: > > > > > > > > *"Yet it was there. ("The intimate communion with the ghost of > Garcia > > > > Lorca" which now "is over.") The poems are there, the memory not of > a > > > > vision but a kind of casual friendship with an undramatic ghost who > > > > occasionally looked through my eyes and whispered to me, not really > > more > > > > important than my other friends, but now achieving a level of reality > > by > > > > being missing. Today, alone by myself, it is like having lost a pair > > of > > > > eyes and a lover. > > > > "What is real, I suppose will endure. Poe's mechanical chess > > > player > > > > was not the less a miracle for having a man inside it, and when the > man > > > > departed, the games it had played were no less beautiful. The > analogy > > is > > > > false, of course, but it holds both a promise and a warning for each > of > > > us. > > > > "It is October now. Summer is over. Almost every trace of the > > > months > > > > of that produced these poems has been obliterated. Only explanations > > are > > > > possible, only regrets. > > > > "Saying goodbye to a ghost is more final than saying goodbye to > a > > > > lover. Even the dead return, but a ghost, once loved, will never > > > reappear. > > > > > > > > Love, Jack > > > > > > > > And here is the final stanza of the postscript poem, Radar" > > > > (which, notice, is a palindrome-the same read backwards and > forwards--) > > > > > > > > "I crawled into bed with sorrow that night > > > > Couldn't touch his fingers. See the splash > > > > Of the water > > > > The noisy movement of the cloud > > > > The push of the humpbacked mountains > > > > Deep at the sand's edge.' > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > These "After effects" are real for Spicer, as what happened is > > becoming, > > > > now > > > > that it is over, and seen in this "After" existence--ever more > > real--even > > > > as > > > > it as a ghost lover is gone forever--the missing of it becomes a > > reality > > > > almost too much to bear and yet, as Spicer says--"It will endure." > > > > > > > > It is another aspect of Poe's "mournful and never ending > remembrance" > > of > > > > the lost loved one, now dead-Just as "The Philosophy of Composition" > is > > > an > > > > After effect of the poem "The Raven," so this final letter to Lorca > is > > a > > > > coming to terms with finding a "philosophy of composition" in order > to > > > > understand why the now departed ghost lover is becoming more real > than > > it > > > > had been while present, in part because it will never reappear again, > > and > > > > how it was that the poems were composed, came to be, without at the > > time > > > > realizing what was happening--not until they had the opportunity to > be > > as > > > > they have become, the generators of a time's memory which has turned > > into > > > a > > > > missing reality, never again to return. It is in the After-event, > > > > After-effect that the "philosophy of composition" becomes a > > reality--and > > > > the > > > > poetry which preceded becomes in turn "more real" than previously the > > > poet > > > > had been aware of. > > > > > > > > > > > > This distance--into which a dead ghost lover is forever > departed--never > > > to > > > > return-- > > > > is a "real and final" distance, the full force of an intimacy never > to > > be > > > > again-- > > > > and so is the distance which has a life of its own-- > > > > out side and away from the poet and the poem-- > > > > and to be an outside also for the reader-- > > > > > > > > In a sense, this kind of distance is what i write of as things which > do > > > not > > > > want to be appropriated or translated, but to be what they are, > > distance, > > > > never to reappear--never to be possessed-- > > > > > > > > i n a sense, writing itself, and also a writer, may wish to keep a > > > privacy > > > > even within the writing, which will never be found, not by anyone, > > > because > > > > the ghost lover it is created with is gone for ever-- > > > > or because there are things which ghosts and writers wish to keep to > > > > themselves, just as writing itself may have such things which are > never > > > > found that are living with in it-- > > > > as though in fact long gone--never to reappear-- > > > > > > > > and yet one day one finds--hidden in plain sight/site/cite-- > > > > which "neither speaks nor conceals but gives signs" > > > > as Heraclitus says of the One Whose Oracle is at Delphi-- > > > > > > > > Also, if one is adopting so completely the method of Benjamin, in a > > sense > > > > are you not creating what you see as an opposition to your own work's > > > > claims > > > > within it: > > > > > > > > "If so, as you > > > > > state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a > > > text > > > > > totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, > > the > > > > very > > > > > reverse of what I am talking about." > > > > > > > > That is, if one is so embracing the philosophy of translation of > > > Benjamin, > > > > is not one in effect running the risk of turning the original > "totally" > > > not > > > > into the translator's image, but in to the image of the philosophy of > > > > translation which is guiding the translator? > > > > > > > > is not one in a sense working then in the service of a particular > > > > philosophy > > > > of translation? > > > > > > > > This is one of the reasons why i essay to keep alive the sense of the > > > > incredibly teeming and endlessly imaginative and inventive ways in > > which > > > > translations and appropriations may be created and used, whether for > > good > > > > or > > > > bad, better or worse, in order that one has a sense that there are > > always > > > > going to be at least two sides to every coin, and once it is being > > > flipped > > > > about-- > > > > well--who knows how many different sides may suddenly show up via the > > > > actions of palming and shifting the coin as it is being flipped-- > > > > > > > > What i hope to convey with readers or listeners if there are any real > > or > > > > imagainary ones about is that words and phrases poems and prose lead > > > lives > > > > of their own as well as the ones which a writer may or not have > > > > intended--and any given reader have found or put there along the > > way--and > > > > that even when things seem to be one way, it is always interesting > if > > > not > > > > often quite useful to find other ways in which the words may be > > > > understood--for in them are living beings--with whom to engage-- > > > > or who wish to engage themselves with oneself-- > > > > > > > > The more ways these words are understood as alive-- > > > > is not this then to proliferate the lives of what are called writers > > and > > > > readers-- > > > > as realities with real effects and After effects-- > > > > > > > > one thinks of the resistances of texts--why not also of those of > living > > > > beings-- > > > > and of the outside-- > > > > > > > > in the sense in which a Russian artist says that "Language is a > > fascism, > > > > not > > > > becuase it censors, but because it forces one to speak." > > > > > > > > a sense of words whose intentions are fugitive, not to be trapped > > inside > > > a > > > > prison of languages which one is forced to speak-- > > > > > > > > to continue--on the move-- > > > > as though one were indeed a hill set in movement-- > > > > yet, seen as a hill-- > > > > not expected nor forced to speak-- > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:24:31 -0500 > > > > > From: muratnn@GMAIL.COM > > > > > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > > > At the bifurcation they part Y one sling, yet in my heart one > > > > > sling shot. > > > > > > > > > > The word "After" in Spicer's poem does not only mean "in imitation > > of" > > > or > > > > > "in homage to." It also means "in pursuit of; it has a predatory > > > > > connotation. In fact, Lorca's reactions from the grave to Spicer's > > > > > solicitations is one of annoyance." A true translation is always an > > act > > > > of > > > > > violence -loving or otherwise, that is the issue- against the > > autonomy > > > of > > > > > the original. It literally must tear it up -fragment it- to open it > > up > > > to > > > > a > > > > > future life, the life of the text. This fragmentation does have the > > > > elements > > > > > of collage. Are you familiar with Eliot Weinberger's essay, "Notes > On > > > > > Translation" [?] of about fifteen years ago about which Kent > Johnson > > > > wrote > > > > > an article which appears in the last issue of ALTA's *The > Translation > > > > Review > > > > > *? > > > > > > > > > > In your comments, you focus on what a text loses in translation, > > > through > > > > > misreading (intentional or not) what gets silenced . My feeling is > > you > > > > are > > > > > particularly thinking of the Guantanamo translations. One should > also > > > > think > > > > > of what it gains: what starts as a "complete," closed text opens > and > > > > becomes > > > > > a potential one, which is its life through time. > > > > > > > > > > A bad translator sees, detects no resistance in the original. If > so, > > as > > > > you > > > > > state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a > > > text > > > > > totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, > > the > > > > very > > > > > reverse of what I am talking about. An original resits to be > > > translated. > > > > > That's why Benjamin says what gives a text translability is > distance. > > > The > > > > > translator translates, integrates that distance. That is why a > > > > translation > > > > > has a tangential relationship to the second language, the distance, > > > > > expressed as style, existing as an ideal, a template of > potentiality > > > for > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > Ciao, > > > > > > > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 5:24 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > > > > > At the bifurcation they part Y one sling, yet in my heart > > > > one > > > > > sling shot. > > > > > > > > > > The word "After" in Spicer's poem does not only mean "in imitation > > of" > > > or > > > > > "in homage to." It also means "in pursuit of; it has a predatory > > > > > connotation. In fact, Lorca's reactions from the grave to Spicer's > > > > > solicitations is one of annoyance." A true translation is always an > > act > > > > of > > > > > violence -loving or otherwise, that is the issue- against the > > autonomy > > > of > > > > > the original. It literally must tear it up -fragment it- to open it > > up > > > to > > > > a > > > > > future life, the life of the text. This fragmentation does have the > > > > > elements > > > > > of collage. Are you familiar with Eliot Weinberger's essay, "Notes > On > > > > > Translation" [?] of about fifteen years ago about which Kent > Johnson > > > > wrote > > > > > an article which appears in the last issue of ALTA's *The > Translation > > > > > Review > > > > > *? > > > > > > > > > > In your comments, you focus on what a text loses in translation, > > > through > > > > > misreading (intentional or not) what gets silenced . My feeling is > > you > > > > are > > > > > particularly thinking of the Guantanamo translations. One should > also > > > > think > > > > > of what it gains: what starts as a "complete," closed text opens > and > > > > > becomes > > > > > a potential one, which is its life through time. > > > > > > > > > > A bad translator sees, detects no resistance in the original. If > so, > > as > > > > you > > > > > state, the "philosophy" of the translator turns the original into a > > > text > > > > > totally in the translator's image. That is an act of exploitation, > > the > > > > very > > > > > reverse of what I am talking about. An original resits to be > > > translated. > > > > > That's why Benjamin says what gives a text translability is > distance. > > > The > > > > > translator translates, integrates that distance. That is why a > > > > translation > > > > > has a tangential relationship to the second language, the distance, > > > > > expressed as style, existing as an ideal, a template of > potentiality > > > for > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > Ciao, > > > > > > > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ================================== > > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > > guidelines > > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 20:41:47 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: The New Regime & what is possible Comments: To: steph484@pacbell.net In-Reply-To: <450054.90681.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "It turns my stomach"? Take an antacid. Not that=20 I need to defend myself, but I and a lot of=20 others have been voicing our doubts right along,=20 while of course voting for Obama because the=20 alternative was unthinkable. Paul, you might want to note that as well. But let's get to the main point. Are you saying=20 "If you're not celebrating you're obstructing=20 progress"? That the skepticism we should=20 certainly bring to phenomena should be abandoned=20 in this case because it's a buzz kill? Is the=20 euphoria so easily threatened? And who says that=20 skepticism presupposes inaction? Or do you equate=20 enjoying the party with political action? Skepticism is not the same as cynicism. And=20 there's plenty to be skeptical about; at least=20 one ought to become aware that what got lost in=20 the euphoric haze is a great deal most of us, I'd=20 guess, don't agree with. Remember where he stands on capital punishment? But finally, all of this is a footnote. We've=20 wasted a generation lying to ourselves, most of=20 us, that we weren't running out of time to make=20 right what needs made right, which means there's=20 no room for error. Local resistance (and I=20 include the US as "local") to what has to be a=20 redefinition of human life on earth in=20 internationalist, cooperative terms will make=20 this very difficult. Overcoming it may not be=20 doable. At the least we need governments who=20 don't care if they offend corn farmers in Iowa.=20 Maybe Obama will rise to the challenge in ways=20 he's given us no reason to expect. My guess is=20 that we're more likely to see minor movement=20 towards what needs to be done--maybe an=20 initiative to create a new energy=20 infrastructure--and a reduction in corruption (if=20 we don't consider billion dollar presidential=20 races an invitation to corruption) and an=20 increase in efficiency. Good things, but nowhere near enough. I've said my piece. Let's try to avoid ad homina. Mark At 01:49 PM 11/8/2008, Stephen Vincent wrote: >Unless I am hopelessly naive, or, simply, refuse=20 >to accede to the Bush doctrine of 'this country=20 >ain't no longer a democracy, and consent of the=20 >governed don't mean merdre, 'we' own you, the=20 >government et al' - I would like to still=20 >imagine that 'we the people' who elected Obama=20 >will pressure, shape and have a positive=20 >insistence on the responsiveness and direction=20 >of this new government. I realize Pelosi et al=20 >rolled over and played dead on Iraq, etc. after=20 >their victories in 2006 and so it is easy to get=20 >pessimistic. But it turns my stomach to see=20 >people who probably voted for Obama so quickly=20 >throw their minds under the truck of the defeat=20 >of anything progressive happening starting in=20 >2009. The huge weight and consequences of the=20 >real collapse of this economy is going to=20 >require a huge and urgent effort to=20 >redefine. Sitting on the sidelines, naysayings=20 >ready at hand is, in my opinion, a sure way to=20 >insure one does not become a part of a > constructive solution. In fact, as this thing=20 > (the economy) continues to spiral out of=20 > control, I this 'stand on the sidelines'=20 > approach is a luxury that few of us will be able to afford. > >I think the real public joy in this election -=20 >both visceral and symbolic as it is - ideally=20 >will be converted into positive public acts=20 >(something impossible to conceive within this=20 >government during these last 8 years). > >By the way, I have not heard a peep out of=20 >anybody about the role of the Arts in the new=20 >Administration. No doubt there are many lobbies=20 >speaking for their interests. (Is the Poetry=20 >Foundation banging a loud drum - and the only=20 >one for poetry - in the background? What might=20 >reshape - other than undoubtable cuts in the=20 >Federal Budget - the way a new head of the NEA=20 >and the Literature programs proceed to fund and=20 >give support institutions in support of poetry=20 >and writing. May there be ways the Poetry=20 >Foundation - with its huge endowment - be=20 >encouraged by the Feds to disperse its funds to=20 >support great poetry programs across the=20 >country (St. Marks, SF State Poetry Center, Beyond Baroque, etc.) > >What do I know? Maybe the Poetry Foundation has=20 >also lost half its value in the Stock Market. > >Anyway, I believe a time of regime change is=20 >great time to push ideas and changes before a=20 >regime settles down and does not have the energy or will to be responsive. > >Stephen Vincent > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > >--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Mairead Byrne wrote: >From: Mairead Byrne >Subject: Re: Forty Acres >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 7:10 AM > >Gabrielle, to my ears even your terms "son of an african chief, went to >ruling class school in hawaii" rock the White House. >Spinning in the huge drum of hope-- >Mairead > > >>> welford@HAWAII.EDU 11/08/08 12:34 AM >>> >i have been thinking about that quite a bit, yes. it's not his genealogy >at all. son of an african chief, went to ruling class school in hawaii... >all adds to the dampness of my celebration. small bits of hope keep >poking me in the ribs but not very hard. g > >Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. >_Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous >Cultures_ >http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317 >_Dora_ >http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378 > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 > >On Fri, 7 Nov 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > > > Not to be a wet blanket, but does anyone notice the irony in the fact= that >Obama is not a descendent of the people Walcott is talking about in this= poem? >Some lovely ideas in the images, though. > >Troy Camplin > > > >________________________________ >From: Daniel Godston >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 3:25:16 PM >Subject: Forty Acres > >O >Forty Acres: a poem for Barack Obama from Nobel winner Derek Walcott > >Out of the turmoil emerges one emblem, an engraving =97 >a young Negro at dawn in straw hat and overalls, >an emblem of impossible prophecy, a crowd >dividing like the furrow which a mule has ploughed, >parting for their president: a field of snow-flecked cotton >forty acres wide, of crows with predictable omens >that the young ploughman ignores for his unforgotten >cotton-haired ancestors, while lined on one branch, is a tense >court of bespectacled owls and, on the field's receding rim =97 >a gesticulating scarecrow stamping with rage at him. >The small plough continues on this lined page >beyond the moaning ground, the lynching tree, the tornado's >black vengeance, >and the young ploughman feels the change in his veins, >heart, muscles, tendons, >till the land lies open like a flag as dawn's sure >light streaks the field and furrows wait for the sower > > From The New York Times Online >November 5, 2008 > >The West Indies poet Derek Walcott, winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize for >Literature, writes exclusively for The Times to mark the election of Barack >Obama as President > >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/ar= ticle5088429.ece > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept=20 >all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 01:57:29 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Nate Pritts Subject: new adventures of walt whitman In-Reply-To: <746202.46407.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just for fun=2C my 11th grade=2C gifted English class is making Walt Whitma= n videos. I decided to make my own "series" - The New Adventures of Walt W= hitman! The first three episodes are up now with three more to come this week. http://www.youtube.com/user/n8pritts Check them out! & if you happen to have any favorite Whitman lines - from = Song of Myself or elsewhere - send them to me & maybe we'll do those next! n8 ___________ :: Nate Pritts is an Honorary Astronaut :: http://www.natepritts.com :: http://www.correspondentbreeze.blogspot.com =20 _________________________________________________________________ Get 5 GB of storage with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_5gb_= 112008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 18:33:33 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It gets more complicated, since marriage / common property laws vary state by state according to the basis of the law -- they aren't a federal matter (like equal rights isn't a federal matter since there's no amendment -- it varies state by state. For example, California is a common property state (based on the Napoleonic Code), so there are no common-law unions. So the marriage issue here is more about insurance, custody, inheritance, joint tenancy with right of survivorship, and visitation rights. The second -- and someone correct me, I don't think this applies to same sex relationships, but I could be wrong -- a man and woman live together, everything is officially jointly owned, BUT the extra goodies that happen with common law (in New York, Hawaii, etc.) don't inhere -- ever. For example, we wouldn't have had to get married if we were in New York; we would already have been usefully-enough married. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 18:45:03 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I will only quickly note that this is the kind of argument I was merely asking for, and that it is quite different in tone from the other posting -- though I will criticize you on the fact that if mine was condescending, this was off the barometer. Let's both make an effort to keep it civilized. Further, it's you who chose to interpret my comment about screeching, etc. in a sexist fashion. Another all-too-typical liberal tactic: to shut down arguments with accusations of racism, sexism, etc. rather than engaging the issues. My experience is that too many liberals are screechers, regardless of sex. If you choose to take offense at my remarks, remember that it is you who are choosing to take offense -- there is nothing inherently offensive in what I wrote. Finally, a good idea is a good idea, no matter where it comes from. I think almost every thought of Marx's is pure evil -- but when he has a good idea, he has a good idea. Don't disregard Sun Tzu just because he was an aristocrat -- he was an aristocrat who won wars (if I were a liberal, I would accuse you of disregarding him because he was Chinese, something I'm certain is absurd). That having been said, I do take several of your points. The civil rights arguments are an excellent approach. Having been raised a Baptist in Kentucky, and being now married to an Hispanic, I think I have some expertise in the areas of which I speak. My experience is that religious people rather claim that homosexuality is "unnatural." This is quickly undermined by the aforementioned examples, which puts them in a tight rhetorical spot, as they now have to regroup and argue that "well, we're not animals. We're supposed to be better." I typically then direct them to their previous argument. If they claim it's a mater of choice, I can and have proven otherwise. Having demonstrated the incoherence of their argument, they have typically then been more receptive to other arguments regarding civil rights, etc. The real issue for many religious people, I think, is less that the government "recognize" gay marriage than that they have a fear that the government will turn around and force their church to perform gay marriage ceremonies. There have been several cases of churches being forced by law to hire someone whose lifestyle they did not approve of, so their fears are not entirely unfounded. It seems to me, then, that if we are going to win this argument, we have to figure out a way to assuage those concerns. And if we are truly believers in a separation of church and state, we cannot use the state to force the churches to accept our world view. That should, in fact, require persuasion rather than laws. One could also point out to fundamentalists that there is much prohibited by the Bible we do not bother with, so why are we picking and choosing? I recommend Peter McWilliams' "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do" for some excellent arguments along those lines. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: amy king To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 7:22:56 PM Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] Troy, I know this will be difficult to admit, but your reply, and often times your style of arguing here, is hypocritical in its condescension. Having grown up on the Bible Belt in Stone Mountain, GA, I used to be one of those "religious people" and, as such, continue to communicate with them. My response to you *is* my response to those religious people you've determined I don't understand. However, I don't need you to explain to me "how people think" and how to respond, verbatim, to "African Americans and Hispanics" -- for you to be so elementary and condescending is just another tactic to avoid engaging my reasonable response to your arguments, which I find as base as those put forth by religious people you dubbed yourself an expert on. Now, I'll explain to you how my reply, as an argument, works. 1. I refuse to engage with religious folks, and anyone else, on the basis of the "Nature vs. Nurture" level simply because to do so inevitably devolves into a moral discussion typically reliant on the Holy Bible as the authority of choice. I don't base my argument on what the Holy Bible claims, but instead, keep the argument framed within the rights provided by the U.S. Constitution. Just because "that's how religious people think" doesn't mean I must concede and allow them to use that bible as the foundation of this argument (recall separation of church and state). I can engage them without such concessions -- and do. In fact, the argument for civil rights, however based in morality vs. immortality for them, is truly not about whose moral barometer is correct at all, as I imagine you know -- it is a matter of rights *for everyone* despite and including our differences, even moral ones, as acknowledged by separation of church and state. 2. My calling the "Nature vs. Nurture" debate a perversion should have tipped you off, since the rest didn't. They like to call homosexuality a "perversion," but debating its existence as one of nature v. nurture to determine who gets what rights is itself a perversion. 3. Further, you have included in your "argument" the very kind of thinking religious people resort to -- that of arguing the very existence of homosexuality as "proven" by its existence in nature. Who cares? (That's a rhetorical one, Troy. I know who cares.) The point is that you argue a biological basis for homosexuality as evidenced in the behavior of animals. Religious folks will argue in return that we aren't animals and shouldn't be gay just because they might be by some freak of nature. (Plus they like to take being gay a step further with this argument and ask if we'd like to marry goats next -- with a snort and a 'ha ha' to finalize the absurdity of the entire proposition). Why resort to such tactics? Just because they do? Just because that's where they might find their moral footing? Nearly equating homosexuality with animals (I know, you didn't) only denigrates any merit for seeking rights as people who are different than them -- despite our differences, even in morality -- and certainly does not change their minds. It never has. Bringing the proof of animal behavior into the argument only distracts and opens the door for tasteless jokes at the expense of any legitimacy for the claim to civil rights for each and every person in this country. (I say in the face of whether we should exist or not, we do and we will not go away, marriage rights or no. Whether we choose to be gay or are "born that way", who I love is my *choice* and I certainly have the right to choose). Finally, characterizing my reply as "screeching" and labeling it as the "liberal social agenda" -- even only by association -- as well as claiming I didn't read your post in favor of "spouting off talking points" is a typically sexist admonishment and so much ad hominem name calling used to avoid engaging the tenets of the argument I actually laid out in direct reply to your post. In this elementary manner, you get to ride in on your noble steed and re-frame our discussion by writing me off as some sort of lil' unworldly & uninformed lady who needs the religious-minded explained to me so that I can "know my enemy" via another nobleman you conjure, Sun Tzu. I'm sorry; I won't bat my eyes and be impressed that you "found my naivete out." Instead, I'll suggest you engage with the actual basis of my argument and ask you to please stop being unnecessarily instructive. Consider us on equal footing intellectually and go from there. In response to your last post regarding why folks who voted for Obama would also vote for Prop 8, I would say that the African Americans and Hispanics you cite were not solely responsible for its passage. Yes, I understand on an exit poll that they voted for it 7 to 10, their turn-out was up percentage points, etc. But this Prop 8 campaign was quite well-funded by the Mormon church and was built and thrived on fear. McCain also attempted to run his campaign on fear; his tactic lost where the Mormons scared a good number of Californians into believing all sorts of ridiculous notions reliant on the idea that marriage itself would be threatened and worthless if everyone were allowed that right. Regarding the communities you name: the LGBT community did not go into those neighborhoods and educate; the Mormon fear campaign ran rampant, hence the exit polls. It's a complicated mix of who sold who on what fear; who spoke out for their rights and where, and who simply doesn't care if everyone has the same rights, particularly where their own aren't threatened. But to take on the religious tenets of the Mormon church (Joseph Smith's ideals, no less!) and debate them on their way of thinking, particularly in terms of Nature vs. Nurture as you suggest, certainly will not advance the fight for those rights nor will it render the fear mongering ineffective. To change the ways of thinking about this issue and frame the debate in legal terms will go a lot further, and has historically done so. In other words: It's okay if you don't like my lifestyle, or if you don't like my skin tone, or you think my religion is not as good as yours; it's your right to think that way, but I'm a citizen of this country, pay my taxes, participate in the cogs of our economy, and am a citizen under the eyes of the law -- ergo, I deserve my rights the same as every other person in this country. Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 3:03 PM Sometimes I wonder if anyone actually reads what anyone says and considers their actual arguments or if they just act like politicians and spout off their talking points regardless. The question of whether or not "being gay" is natural or a choice is not "beyond moot" to those againstgay marriage. To such people, their belief that being gay is a choice has everything to do with it. They would argue that choosing to be gay is like choosing to be a murderer, and insofar as both are immoral, both should be opposed. I, of course, to not consider this to be the case. I too understand that sexuality is fluid and that, as a species, Homo sapiens, like our close relatives the bonobos, are a bisexual species. Less bisexual than bonobos, but more so than chimpanzees. The fact that hazy sexuality is a biological fact in the human species is not moot, and is in fact a benefit to those who want to argue for civil rightsrecognitions. If you want to make any headway on this issue, you have to understand the position of the opposition. "Know your enemy as you know yourself and you will not fail." -- Sun Tzu. The reason so many liberals can't get anything done is that you think screeching at the top of your lungs is what gets things done, and you don't even bother to try to argue your point. And your lack of understanding of how people think -- especially religious people -- is what prevents you from understanding how Obama can win the Presidency, but the African-Americans and Hispanics who voted for them voted against the liberal social agenda. I'm trying to explain it to you, and all you have to say is that their reasons, which they consider to be central to their belief system, is merely a "moot point." It's condescending to them, and won't win any arguments with them. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: amy king To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 11:20:44 AM Subject: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] Troy, The question of being gay as "natural" or a "choice" is beyond moot. Since the constitution provides everyone equal rights - ahem - I should be allowed to marry whomever I choose, so long as they consent and choose me as well. To devolve into such debate over whether the selection of one's spouse is a choice, a coercion, a divine intervention, a prophetic union, or what-have-you is to distract from the purposes & securities provided by the constitution. That we *must* be separated by gender was not something our forefathers predicted would be problematic -- any more than when they wrote that some people weren't exactly human and could be owned as chattel. But in an age when it is beginning to be acknowledged that gender lines are, at best, blurred and complex, sexes are multiple (despite "corrective" measures - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/magazine/24intersexkids.html & http://www.jenellerose.com/htmlpostings/intersex_babies_controversy.htm), and, like it or not, gender is fluid, to create an amendment defining marriage as between a "man" and a "woman" is institutionalized bias. Devolving into the archaic debate of just what penis and vagina should be allowed a legally-sanctioned U.S. Gov't issued contract is silly and a distracting fallacy. Two people should be granted the same rights as any other two people as written in the constitution. This debate heralds back to the not-so-old one of whether it was "right" that blacks and whites be allowed the same rights under the law, as if the races were two different species (see anti-miscegenation laws). It wasn't so long ago that people thought it "unnatural" to see two separate skin tones loving one another. Some still think it "unnatural." The debate of nature vs nurture is itself a perversion. An aside: I think the passing of Prop 8 speaks moreover to the hope that by denying the GLBT community the right to marry will somehow abolish the very existence of that community -- at least, that's my pessimistic read on the whole debacle. Gays/lesbians are the latest "Other" just as immigrants remain "Alien" on the soil of a people obsessed with "getting and keeping theirs." Mark, Separations of symbols vs. legalities not withstanding, civil unions and domestic partnerships do NOT provide the same legal benefits that marriages do. It's all in the poetic wording, no? "Separate but equal" has historically betrayed everyone's "good" intentions. If "civil unions" were to be federally-mandated, then perhaps that would cover the legal protections that marriages do, but until then: What are some of the limitations of civil unions? Civil unions are different from marriage, and that difference has wide-ranging implications that make the two institutions unequal. Here is a quick look at some of the most significant differences: -Portability: Marriages are respected state to state for all purposes, but questions remain about how civil unions will be treated in other states. GLAD believes there are strong arguments that civil unions deserve respect across the country just like marriages. But the two appellate courts that have addressed the issue (in Connecticut and Georgia) have disrespected them based on the fact that their states do not grant civil unions themselves. -Ending a Civil Union: If you are married, you can get divorced in any state in which you are a resident. But if states continue to disrespect civil unions, there is no way to end the relationship other than by establishing residency in Vermont and filing for divorce there. This has already created problems for some couples who now have no way to terminate their legal commitment. -Federal Benefits: According to a 1997 GAO report, civil marriage brings with it at least 1,049 legal protections and responsibilities from the federal government, including the right to take leave from work to care for a family member, the right to sponsor a spouse for immigration purposes, and Social Security survivor benefits that can make a difference between old age in poverty and old age in security. Civil unions bring none of these critical legal protections. -Taxes & Public Benefits for the Family: Because the federal government does not respect civil unions, a couple with a civil union will be in a kind of limbo with regard to governmental functions performed by both state and federal governments, such as taxation, pension protections, provision of insurance for families, and means-tested programs like Medicaid. Even when states try to provide legal protections, they may be foreclosed from doing so in joint federal/state programs. -Filling out forms: Every day, we fill out forms that ask us whether we are married or single. People joined in a civil union don't fit into either category. People with civil unions should be able to identify themselves as a single family unit, but misrepresenting oneself on official documents can be considered fraud and carries potential serious criminal penalties. -Separate & Unequal -- Second-Class Status: Even if there were no substantive differences in the way the law treated marriages and civil unions, the fact that a civil union remains a separate status just for gay people represents real and powerful inequality. We've been down this road before in this country and should not kid ourselves that a separate institution just for gay people is a just solution here either. Our constitution requires legal equality for all. Including gay and lesbian couples within existing marriage laws is the fairest and simplest thing to do. How real are these differences between marriage and civil unions, given that a federal law and some state laws discriminate against all marriages of same-sex couples? Would any of this change immediately with marriage of same-sex couples? Probably not, because married same-sex couples will face other layers of discrimination against their marriages. Right now, a federal law denies recognition of same-sex unions conferred by any state for purposes of all federal programs and requirements and over 30 state laws do the same. Ending discrimination in marriage does not mean the end of all discrimination, but using the term "marriage" rather than "civil union" is an essential first step to opening the door and addressing whether continued governmental discrimination against civil marriages of gay and lesbian people makes sense. Marriage and civil unions remain different, both in practice and in principle. First, more than a dozen states have not taken a discriminatory position against civil marriages of gay and lesbian couples. In those states, civilly married gay and lesbian couples should be able to live and travel freely and without fear that their relationship will be disrespected. Second, even as to those states with discriminatory laws, legally married gay and lesbian couples from those states may well face some discrimination in some quarters, but their marriages will also be treated with legal respect in other arenas. Marriages are far more likely to be respected by others than newly minted "civil unions." Using the term marriage also prompts a discussion about fairness. Allowing same sex couples to marry (rather than enter a separate status) will allow gay and lesbian people to talk with their neighbors, their local elected officials, and the Congress about whether discrimination against their marriages is fair. Where gay and lesbian people and their children are part of the social fabric, is it right to continue discriminating against them in civil marriage? The federal government and states that have taken discriminatory positions against marriages of gay and lesbian couples could rethink those policies and go back to respecting state laws about marriage, as they have done for hundreds of years. In the end, we will not be able to have this discussion until gay and lesbian folks have what everyone else has: civil marriage. http://www.yffn.org/admin/spi/marriagevsunion.html http://lesbianlife.about.com/cs/wedding/a/unionvmarriage.htm Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 23:24:01 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Obama's Arts Administration Platform Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ********************************** All the writer=E2=80=99s noise is finally an attempt to shape a silence = in =20 which something can go on. Call it the science of interpretation. Samuel R. =20 Delany >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 04:02:05 -0400 >> > To: CreativeAmericaforObama@groups.barackobama.com >> > From: CreativeAmericaforObama@groups.barackobama.com >> > Subject: CreativeAmericaforObama Digest, October 30th >> > >> > >> > To send a message to this group, email: >> > CreativeAmericaforObama@groups.barackobama.com >> > >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> > than "Re: Contents of CreativeAmericaforObama digest..." >> > >> > >> > Today's Messages: >> > >> > 1. CALL TO ACTION: SHARE OBAMA'S ARTS POLICY PLATFORM (Arts =20 >> Policy Committee ) >> > 2. Attachments you need (Arts Policy Committee ) >> > >> > =20 >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Message: 1 >> > Original Message: = http://my.barackobama.com/page/group/CreativeAmericaforObama/listserv-mess= age/BwgGGmRK >> > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:33:21 -0400 >> > From: Arts Policy Committee >> > Subject: [CreativeAmericaforObama] CALL TO ACTION: SHARE OBAMA'S =20= >> ARTS POLICY PLATFORM >> > Message-ID: <73EFAC06-B6D6-4BBC-922F-B1EBAFAE457C@gmail.com> >> > >> > > >> > > Dear Artists for Obama, >> > > >> > > I am writing to encourage you to share Obama's arts policy with >> > > every artist, writer, musician, performer, collector, and arts >> > > administrator you know. Arts and Creative Industries has over >> > > 1,000 members. If we each contact even a just a few other =20 >> artists, >> > > we can have a major impact on this election. >> > > >> > > Here's what you can do: >> > > >> > > 1. Email a personal note to your all of your arts contacts and >> > > attach Obama's Arts Policy Document. We especially want to reach >> > > those artists in battle ground states. Once you've emailed your >> > > contacts, please email us at obamaarts@gmail.com and tell us how >> > > many people you emailed. >> > > >> > > You can cut and paste the email text below into your email or >> > > craft your own. Either way, be sure to: >> > > =E2=80=A2 Attach the longer version of the arts policy platform = pdf and >> > > the Americans for the Arts policy comparison. >> > > =E2=80=A2 Encourage the people you email to send Obama's Arts = Policy >> > > Platform to their contacts. >> > > =E2=80=A2 Provide Information on finding their polling place: Two >> > > helpful sites are voteforchange.com and maps.google.com/vote >> > > >> > > 2. Print out the attached two page policy flyer and distribute it >> > > to places where artists gather. Places like art centers, writing >> > > centers, and theaters often have bulletin boards where you can =20= >> post >> > > the short flyer version. Also leave a stack at your local Obama >> > > headquarters. >> > > >> > > Thanks for your help! >> > > >> > > Shawnee Barton >> > > Obama for America Arts Policy Committee Member >> > > >> > > P.S. Newspapers across the country are publishing articles that >> > > discuss and compare the arts policies of both candidates. You >> > > might be interested in reading this recent article in the LA =20 >> Times at >> > > http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/arts/la-et- >> > > artscandidates24-2008oct24,0,7660935.story >> > > and another in The Salt Lake Tribune at = http://www.sltrib.com/news/ >> > > ci_10628711 >> > > >> > > =20 >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > --------------------------- >> > > >> > > CUT AND PASTE TEXT: >> > > >> > > Dear Arts Supporter / Friend of the Arts / Friends >> > > >> > > If you believe, as I do, that the upcoming election is critical =20= >> to >> > > the future of our country, and if you also believe, as I do, in =20= >> the >> > > value and importance of the arts in our lives, I urge you to >> > > support Barack Obama on November 4th, and ask your help in =20 >> ensuring >> > > he is elected the next President of the United States of America. >> > > >> > > Senator Obama has articulated a solid platform for support of the >> > > arts - one which would provide an unprecedented opportunity for >> > > development of the arts and culture in the US as never before. >> > > >> > > I have attached/included is a link to a comparison of the two >> > > candidates=E2=80=99 arts legislative actions and positions = prepared by =20 >> the >> > > non-partisan group, the Americans for the Arts Action Fund. =20 >> I=E2=80=99ve >> > > also attached/included a link to Senator Obama=E2=80=99s Arts = Policy =20 >> for >> > > your convenience. >> > > >> > > Please join me in not only voting for him, but in doing =20 >> everything >> > > you can to ensure his election: >> > > >> > > =C2=B7 Forward this information to all interested artists and >> > > arts supporters and urge their support >> > > =C2=B7 Sign up to be a part of the arts community that is >> > > helping to get Barack Obama elected by going to: http:// >> > > my.barackobama.com/page/group/CreativeAmericaforObama >> > > =C2=B7 CLICK on JOIN GROUP and either sign in or create a new >> > > account and sign in with your new login info >> > > =C2=B7 Once you join our arts network, you can sign up to phone >> > > bank, to canvass in your area, or help get out the vote on =20 >> election >> > > day - enlist others in the arts community to assist in these >> > > efforts with you >> > > >> > > This is a critical moment for the future of America and a game- >> > > changing moment for the arts in America. Please help us elect a >> > > president who can address the many serious issues facing us as a >> > > nation, but who also understands the value and important of the >> > > arts in our life as a nation. >> > > >> > > To find your polling place, please visit voteforchange.com or >> > > maps.google.com/vote. >> > > >> > > Sincerely, >> > > >> > =EF=BF=BC=EF=BF=BC >> > =EF=BF=BC >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 2 >> > Original Message: = http://my.barackobama.com/page/group/CreativeAmericaforObama/listserv-mess= age/lwgGGmCy >> > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:52:28 -0400 >> > From: Arts Policy Committee >> > Subject: [CreativeAmericaforObama] Attachments you need >> > Message-ID: <9302B824-946D-4416-8E64-F0D0B8B1AE86@gmail.com> >> > >> > I apologize, mybo will not let me include the attachments you =20 >> need to >> > include with with the emails you send to your arts contacts. It's >> > okay though. You can download both documents online. >> > >> > The arts policy document is available at http://=20 >> www.barackobama.com/ >> > issues/additional/#arts >> > >> > The Americans for the Arts comparison piece can be found at http:// >> > www.artsactionfund.org/artsvote/default.asp >> > >> > You can download both of these pdfs and attach them to your email. >> > Again, feel free to write a personal note, but for your =20 >> convenience, >> > the cut and paste text is also below. Thank you, and remember to =20= >> let >> > us know how many emails you send out. >> > >> > Sincerely, >> > >> > Shawnee Barton >> > ________________________________________________ >> > >> > >> > > CUT AND PASTE TEXT: >> > > >> > > Dear Arts Supporter / Friend of the Arts / Friends >> > > >> > > If you believe, as I do, that the upcoming election is critical =20= >> to >> > > the future of our country, and if you also believe, as I do, in =20= >> the >> > > value and importance of the arts in our lives, I urge you to >> > > support Barack Obama on November 4th, and ask your help in =20 >> ensuring >> > > he is elected the next President of the United States of America. >> > > >> > > Senator Obama has articulated a solid platform for support of the >> > > arts - one which would provide an unprecedented opportunity for >> > > development of the arts and culture in the US as never before. >> > > >> > > I have attached/included is a link to a comparison of the two >> > > candidates' arts legislative actions and positions prepared by =20= >> the >> > > non-partisan group, the Americans for the Arts Action Fund. I've >> > > also attached/included a link to Senator Obama's Arts Policy for >> > > your convenience. >> > > >> > > Please join me in not only voting for him, but in doing =20 >> everything >> > > you can to ensure his election: >> > > >> > > =EF=BF=BD Forward this information to all interested artists and = arts >> > > supporters and urge their support >> > > =EF=BF=BD Sign up to be a part of the arts community that is = helping to >> > > get Barack Obama elected by going to: http:// >> > > my.barackobama.com/page/group/CreativeAmericaforObama >> > > =EF=BF=BD CLICK on JOIN GROUP and either sign in or create a new =20= >> account >> > > and sign in with your new login info >> > > =EF=BF=BD Once you join our arts network, you can sign up to = phone =20 >> bank, >> > > to canvass in your area, or help get out the vote on election >> > > day - enlist others in the arts community to assist in these >> > > efforts with you >> > > >> > > This is a critical moment for the future of America and a game- >> > > changing moment for the arts in America. Please help us elect a >> > > president who can address the many serious issues facing us as a >> > > nation, but who also understands the value and important of the >> > > arts in our life as a nation. >> > > >> > > To find your polling place, please visit voteforchange.com or >> > > maps.google.com/vote. >> > > >> > > Sincerely, >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > >> > >> > =20 >> = ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > Unsubscribe or change your email settings: = http://my.barackobama.com/page/group/CreativeAmericaforObama/listserv-unsu= b >> > Listserv email address: = CreativeAmericaforObama@groups.barackobama.com >> > =20 >> = ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with =20 >> Windows Live. See Now > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 20:41:57 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: Forty Acres MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In September, the average contribution to Obama was $83. Hardly= Steve,=0A=0AIn September, the average contribution to Obama was $83. Hardly= the work of special interests. Even Republicans were saying this is how ca= mpaigns should be financed. In fact, corporations should NEVER be allowed t= o finance campaigns. Of course, without the interpretation of County of San= ta Clara vs. Southern Pacific making corporations people, this would not be= an issue.=0A=0AWhile we're at it, why not make political ads illegal on TV= or radio? Like cigarettes? (Political ads are more toxic.)=0A=0APaul=0A=0A= Paul E. Nelson =0A=0AGlobal Voices Radio=0ASPLAB!=0AAmerican Sentences=0AO= rganic Poetry=0APoetry Postcard Blog=0A=0AIlalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.73= 5.6328=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: stev= e russell =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASen= t: Saturday, November 8, 2008 12:34:43 PM=0ASubject: Re: Forty Acres=0A=0AP= rison: both Wole Soyinka and Mandella payed their dues. Obama's gifts are i= mmense. & while i'm cynical of his new age sound bites, "hope", "change", w= hatever, what more can one do but give the guys integrity the benefit of a = doubt? Really, when Obama spoke of change, he still needed an enormous sum = of cash to play the political game. HOW does one CHANGE all of that???=0A= =0A--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Barry Schwabsky wrote= :=0AFrom: Barry Schwabsky =0ASubject: Re: Fort= y Acres=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ADate: Saturday, November 8, 20= 08, 11:57 AM=0A=0AAnd "son of an African chief" evokes Nelson Mandela, no? = Not a bad=0Athing, I hope...=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________= =0AFrom: Mairead Byrne =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU= =0ASent: Saturday, 8 November, 2008 3:10:52 PM=0ASubject: Re: Forty Acres= =0A=0AGabrielle, to my ears even your terms "son of an african chief, went = to=0Aruling class school in hawaii" rock the White House.=0ASpinning in the= huge drum of hope--=0AMairead=0A=0A>>> welford@HAWAII.EDU 11/08/08 12:34 A= M >>>=0Ai have been thinking about that quite a bit, yes. it's not his gen= ealogy=0Aat all. son of an african chief, went to ruling class school in h= awaii...=0Aall adds to the dampness of my celebration. small bits of hope = keep=0Apoking me in the ribs but not very hard. g=0A=0AGabrielle Welford, = Ph.D.=0A_Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigen= ous=0ACultures_=0Ahttp://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3D= full&id=3D317=0A_Dora_=0Ahttp://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?ac= tion=3Dfull&id=3D378=0A=0ANo virus found in this incoming message.=0AChecke= d by AVG Free Edition.=0AVersion: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - = Release Date: 2/27/2007=0A=0AOn Fri, 7 Nov 2008, Troy Camplin wrote:=0A=0A>= Not to be a wet blanket, but does anyone notice the irony in the fact that= =0AObama is not a descendent of the people Walcott is talking about in this= poem?=0ASome lovely ideas in the images, though.=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A= =0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Daniel Godston =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Thursday, November 6= , 2008 3:25:16 PM=0ASubject: Forty Acres=0A=0AO=0AForty Acres: a poem for B= arack Obama from Nobel winner Derek Walcott=0A=0AOut of the turmoil emerges= one emblem, an engraving =97=0Aa young Negro at dawn in straw hat and over= alls,=0Aan emblem of impossible prophecy, a crowd=0Adividing like the furro= w which a mule has ploughed,=0Aparting for their president: a field of snow= -flecked cotton=0Aforty acres wide, of crows with predictable omens=0Athat = the young ploughman ignores for his unforgotten=0Acotton-haired ancestors, = while lined on one branch, is a tense=0Acourt of bespectacled owls and, on = the field's receding rim =97=0Aa gesticulating scarecrow stamping with rage= at him.=0AThe small plough continues on this lined page=0Abeyond the moani= ng ground, the lynching tree, the tornado's=0Ablack vengeance,=0Aand the yo= ung ploughman feels the change in his veins,=0Aheart, muscles, tendons,=0At= ill the land lies open like a flag as dawn's sure=0Alight streaks the field= and furrows wait for the sower=0A=0AFrom The New York Times Online=0ANovem= ber 5, 2008=0A=0AThe West Indies poet Derek Walcott, winner of the 1992 Nob= el Prize for=0ALiterature, writes exclusively for The Times to mark the ele= ction of Barack=0AObama as President=0A=0Ahttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/= news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5088429.ece=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all= posts.. Check=0Aguidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetic= s/welcome..html=0A=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List= is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0Aguidelines & sub/unsub i= nfo: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. C= heck guidelines=0A& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.= html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & d= oes not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A& sub/unsub info: http://epc.b= uffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe= Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A= =0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does no= t accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.e= du/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 19:36:39 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: on Walcott and Obama MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If Obama is not African American in the traditional sense, neither is Walcott. But read Walcott's long poem about spending time in Little Rock, Arkansas, and read Obama's memoir about growing up in Hawai`i and then moving to South Side, Chicago. It's not just where they come from, it's how others treated them that matters. Both men know their (various) genealogies and can deploy them ably. Obama's victory speech subsumed King's rhetoric into a larger field. Yes, he's an American politician; no he's not going change America utterly. But what a sea-change it still is! And how wonderful to see the Bush years repudiated, finally. Susan ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 08:31:35 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] In-Reply-To: <110662.28247.qm@web46214.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Troy, Continuing to label my responses as so many "liberal tactics" carries on yo= ur condescension, and indeed, your characterization of my original reply as= "screeching" most certainly is sexist, whether I "choose" to read it that = way or not.=A0 You're trying to shuck the weight of your words by making th= e weight they carry my burden to accept or deny them -- but you are the one= flinging such nasty characterizations, and you have felt it historically n= ecessary on this list to do so with many people (i.e.=A0 "liberal tactics" = is but one seeming insult in your Poetics List arsenal).=A0 Why the urge to= label and characterize responses on this list at all? Why not take your own advice and just "engage the issues", as you continue = to claim that I did not do.=A0 In fact, I have done nothing but respond to = your claims (re-read the whole thread below), as well as point out the ad h= ominem strains in your response.=A0 It is this latter aspect of my reply th= at hurts your pride and raises the defensive hairs on your back.=A0 But you= r style of arguing is full of unnecessary bait & attack that reminds me of = Rush Limbaugh's "responses" to feminist claims -- if you call her an angry = cow, you no longer have to listen to what she says; you need only paint a p= icture of her and ask that she be tamed, or try to tame her yourself.=A0=A0= "Screeching" runs along those same lines, like it or not ...=20 Regarding the meat of your argument, I'd like to know when the U.S. Governm= ent forced any church to hire people whose lifestyles they didn't approve o= f?=A0 I really don't know about any instances of such legal intervention wi= th any church regarding the hiring of gay clergy and am quite curious.=A0 W= ere these instances in the Catholic church?=A0=20 Additionally, I'd like to point out, though I use the term too, that even "= gay marriages" seems misguided.=A0 Marriages are marriages are marriages.= =A0 We don't say, "The government should perform bi-racial marriages."=A0 I= nstead, we demand that everyone have the right to marry.=A0 I suppose it wo= uld be difficult to keep saying, 'Give the right to marry to the GLBT commu= nity,' but perhaps demanding "Marriage Equality" instead could be a simple = start to eliminating the marginialized thinking this issue sustains.=A0=20 Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark= ] To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 9:45 PM I will only quickly note that this is the kind of argument I was merely ask= ing for, and that it is quite different in tone from the other posting -- thoug= h I will criticize you on the fact that if mine was condescending, this was off= the barometer. Let's both make an effort to keep it civilized. Further, it's you who chose to interpret my comment about screeching, etc. in a sexist fashion. Another all-too-typical liberal tactic: to shut down arguments wit= h accusations of racism, sexism, etc. rather than engaging the issues. My experience is that too many liberals are screechers, regardless of sex. If = you choose to take offense at my remarks, remember that it is you who are choos= ing to take offense -- there is nothing inherently offensive in what I wrote. Finally, a good idea is a good idea, no matter where it comes from. I think almost every thought of Marx's is pure evil -- but when he has a good idea, he has a good idea. Don't disregard Sun Tzu just because he was an aristocrat -- he was an aristocrat who won wars (if I we= re a liberal, I would accuse you of disregarding him because he was Chinese, something I'm certain is absurd).=20 That having been said, I do take several of your points. The civil rights arguments are an excellent approach. Having been raised a Baptist in Kentuc= ky, and being now married to an Hispanic, I think I have some expertise in the = areas of which I speak. My experience is that religious people rather claim that homosexuality is "unnatural." This is quickly undermined by the aforementioned examples, which puts them in a tight rhetorical spot, as the= y now have to regroup and argue that "well, we're not animals. We're supposed to be better." I typically then direct them to their previous argument. If they claim it's a mater of choice, I can and have proven otherwise. Having demonstrated the incoherence of their argument, they have typically then been more receptive to other arguments regarding civil right= s, etc. The real issue for many religious people, I think, is less that the government "recognize" gay marriage than that they have a fear that the government will turn around and force their church to perform gay marriage ceremonies= . There have been several cases of churches being forced by law to hire someo= ne whose lifestyle they did not approve of, so their fears are not entirely unfounded. It seems to me, then, that if we are going to win this argument,= we have to figure out a way to assuage those concerns. And if we are truly believers in a separation of church and state, we cannot use the state to f= orce the churches to accept our world view. That should, in fact, require persua= sion rather than laws. One could also point out to fundamentalists that there is= much prohibited by the Bible we do not bother with, so why are we picking and choosing? I recommend Peter McWilliams' "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do" for some excellent arguments along those lines.=20 Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: amy king To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 7:22:56 PM Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] Troy, I know this will be difficult to admit, but your reply, and often times you= r style of arguing here, is hypocritical in its condescension. =20 Having grown up on the Bible Belt in Stone Mountain, GA, I used to be one o= f those "religious people" and, as such, continue to communicate with them. My response to you *is* my response to those religious people you've determined I don't understand. However, I don't need you to explain to me "how people think" and how to respond, verbatim, to "African Americans and Hispanics" -- for you to be so elementary and condescending is just another tactic to avoid engaging my reasonable response to your arguments, which I find as base as = those put forth by religious people you dubbed yourself an expert on. Now, I'll explain to you how my reply, as an argument, works. 1. I refuse to engage with religious folks, and anyone else, on the basis = of the "Nature vs. Nurture" level simply because to do so inevitably devolves into a moral discussion typically reliant on the Holy Bible as the authority of choice. I don't base my argument on what the Holy Bible claims, but instead, keep the argument framed within the rights provided by= the U.S. Constitution. =20 Just because "that's how religious people think" doesn't mean I must concede and allow them to use that bible as the foundation of this argument (recall separation of church and state). I can engage them withou= t such concessions -- and do. In fact, the argument for civil rights, howeve= r based in morality vs. immortality for them, is truly not about whose moral barometer is correct at all, as I imagine you know -- it is a matter of rig= hts *for everyone* despite and including our differences, even moral ones, as acknowledged by separation of church and state. 2. My calling the "Nature vs. Nurture" debate a perversion should have tipped you off, since the rest didn't. They like to call homosexualit= y a "perversion," but debating its existence as one of nature v. nurture to determine who gets what rights is itself a perversion. =20 =20 3. Further, you have included in your "argument" the very kind of thinking religious people resort to -- that of arguing the very existence o= f homosexuality as "proven" by its existence in nature. Who cares?=20 (That's a rhetorical one, Troy. I know who cares.) The point is that you argue a biological basis for homosexuality as evidenced in the behavior of animals. Religious folks will argue in return that we aren't animals and shouldn't be gay just because they might be by some freak of nature. (Plus they like to take being gay a step further with this argument and ask if we'd like to marry goats next -- with a snort and a 'ha ha' to finalize the absurdity of the entire proposition). =20 Why resort to such tactics? Just because they do? Just because that's where they might find their moral footing? Nearly equating homosexuality w= ith animals (I know, you didn't) only denigrates any merit for seeking rights a= s people who are different than them -- despite our differences, even in mora= lity -- and certainly does not change their minds. It never has. Bringing the = proof of animal behavior into the argument only distracts and opens the door for tasteless jokes at the expense of any legitimacy for the claim to civil rig= hts for each and every person in this country. (I say in the face of whether w= e should exist or not, we do and we will not go away, marriage rights or no.= =20 Whether we choose to be gay or are "born that way", who I love is my *choice* and I certainly have the right to choose). Finally, characterizing my reply as "screeching" and labeling it as the "liberal social agenda" -- even only by association -- as well as claiming I didn't read your post in favor of "spouting off talking points" is a typically sexist admonishment and so much ad hominem name calling used to avoid engaging the tenets of the argument I actually laid o= ut in direct reply to your post. In this elementary manner, you get to ride in o= n your noble steed and re-frame our discussion by writing me off as some sort= of lil' unworldly & uninformed lady who needs the religious-minded explained to me so that I can "know my enemy" via another nobleman you conjure, Sun Tzu. =20 I'm sorry; I won't bat my eyes and be impressed that you "found my naivete out." Instead, I'll suggest you engage with the actual basis of my argument and ask you to please stop being unnecessarily instructive.= =20 Consider us on equal footing intellectually and go from there. =20 In response to your last post regarding why folks who voted for Obama would also vote for Prop 8, I would say that the African Americans and Hispanics = you cite were not solely responsible for its passage. Yes, I understand on an = exit poll that they voted for it 7 to 10, their turn-out was up percentage point= s, etc. But this Prop 8 campaign was quite well-funded by the Mormon church a= nd was built and thrived on fear. McCain also attempted to run his campaign o= n fear; his tactic lost where the Mormons scared a good number of Californian= s into believing all sorts of ridiculous notions reliant on the idea that mar= riage itself would be threatened and worthless if everyone were allowed that righ= t.=20 Regarding the communities you name: the LGBT community did not go into tho= se neighborhoods and educate; the Mormon fear campaign ran rampant, hence the = exit polls. It's a complicated mix of who sold who on what fear; who spoke out for their rights and where, and who simply doesn't care if everyone has the same rights, particularly where their own aren't threatened. =20 But to take on the religious tenets of the Mormon church (Joseph Smith's ideals, no less!) and debate them on their way of thinking, particularly in terms of Nature vs. Nurture as you suggest, certainly will not advance the = fight for those rights nor will it render the fear mongering ineffective. To cha= nge the ways of thinking about this issue and frame the debate in legal terms w= ill go a lot further, and has historically done so. In other words: It's okay if you don't like my lifestyle, or if you don't like my skin tone, or you think my religion is not as good as yours; it's your right to think tha= t way, but I'm a citizen of this country, pay my taxes, participate in the cogs of our economy, and am a citizen under the eyes of the law -- ergo, I deserve my rights the same as every other person in this country. =20 Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 3:03 PM Sometimes I wonder if anyone actually reads what anyone says and considers their actual arguments or if they just act like politicians and spout off their talking points regardless. The question of whether or not "being gay" is natural or a choice is not "beyond moot" to those againstgay marriage. To such people, their belief that being gay is a choice has everything to do with it. They would argue that choosing to be gay is like choosing to be a murderer, and insofar as b= oth are immoral, both should be opposed. I, of course, to not consider this to = be the case. I too understand that sexuality is fluid and that, as a species, = Homo sapiens, like our close relatives the bonobos, are a bisexual species. Less bisexual than bonobos, but more so than chimpanzees. The fact that hazy sexuality is a biological fact in the human species is not moot, and is in = fact a benefit to those who want to argue for civil rightsrecognitions. If you w= ant to make any headway on this issue, you have to understand the position of t= he opposition. "Know your enemy as you know yourself and you will not fail." -- Sun Tzu. The reason so many liberals can't get anything done is that you think screeching at the top of your lungs is what gets things done, and you don't even bother to try to argue your point. And your lack of understanding of how people think -- especially religious peop= le -- is what prevents you from understanding how Obama can win the Presidency, b= ut the African-Americans and Hispanics who voted for them voted against the liberal social agenda. I'm trying to explain it to you, and all you have to say is that their reasons, which they consider to be central to their belief syste= m, is merely a "moot point." It's condescending to them, and won't win any arguments with them. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: amy king To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 11:20:44 AM Subject: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] Troy, The question of being gay as "natural" or a "choice" is beyond moot. Since the constitution provides everyone equal rights - ahem = - I should be allowed to marry whomever I choose, so long as they consent and choose me as well. To devolve into such debate over whether the selection of one's spouse is a choice, a coercion, a divine intervention, a prophetic union, o= r what-have-you is to distract from the purposes & securities provided by the constitution. That we *must* be separated by gender was not something our forefathers predicted would be problematic -- any more than when they wrote that some people weren't exactly human and could be owned as chattel. =20 But in an age when it is beginning to be acknowledged that gender lines are= , at best, blurred and complex, sexes are multiple (despite "corrective" measures - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/magazine/24intersexkids.html & http://www.jenellerose.com/htmlpostings/intersex_babies_controversy.htm), a= nd, like it or not, gender is fluid, to create an amendment defining marriage a= s between a "man" and a "woman" is institutionalized bias.=20 Devolving into the archaic debate of just what penis and vagina should be allowed a legally-sanctioned U.S. Gov't issued contract is silly and a distracting fallacy. Two people should be granted the same rights as any o= ther two people as written in the constitution. This debate heralds back to the not-so-old one of whether it was "right" that blacks and whites be allowed the same rights under the law, as if the races were two different species (see anti-miscegenation laws). It wasn't so long ago that people thought it "unnatural" to see two separate skin tones loving one another. Some still think it "unnatural." The debate of nature vs nurture is itself a perversion. =20 An aside: I think the passing of Prop 8 speaks moreover to the hope that b= y denying the GLBT community the right to marry will somehow abolish the very existence of that community -- at least, that's my pessimistic read on the whole debacle. Gays/lesbians are the latest "Other" just as immigrants remain "Alien" on the soil of a people obsessed with "getting and keeping theirs." =20 Mark,=20 Separations of symbols vs. legalities not withstanding, civil unions and domestic partnerships do NOT provide the same legal benefits that marriages= do. It's all in the poetic wording, no? "Separate but equal" has historically betrayed everyone's "good" intentions. If "civil unions" were to be federally-mandated, then perhaps that would cover the legal protections that marriages do, but until then: What are some of the limitations of civil unions? =20 Civil unions are different from marriage, and that difference has wide-ranging implications that make the two institutions unequal. Here is a quick look at some of the most significant differences:=20 =20 -Portability: =20 Marriages are respected state to state for all purposes, but questions remain about how civil unions will be treated in other states.=20 GLAD believes there are strong arguments that civil unions deserve respect across the country just like marriages. But the two appellate courts that have addressed the issue (in Connecticut and Georgia) have disrespected them based on the fact that their states do not grant civi= l unions themselves. =20 -Ending a Civil Union: =20 If you are married, you can get divorced in any state in which you are = a resident. But if states continue to disrespect civil unions, there is no way to end the relationship other than by establishing residency in Vermont and filing for divorce there. This has already created problems for some couples who now have no way to terminate their legal commitment. =20 -Federal Benefits: =20 According to a 1997 GAO report, civil marriage brings with it at least 1,049 legal protections and responsibilities from the federal government, including the right to take leave from work to care for a family member, the right to sponsor a spouse for immigration purposes, and Social Security survivor benefits that can make a difference betwee= n old age in poverty and old age in security. Civil unions bring none of these critical legal protections. =20 -Taxes & Public Benefits for the Family: =20 Because the federal government does not respect civil unions, a couple with a civil union will be in a kind of limbo with regard to governmental functions performed by both state and federal governments, such as taxation, pension protections, provision of insurance for families, and means-tested programs like Medicaid. Even when states try to provide legal protections, they may be foreclosed from doing so in joint federal/state programs. =20 -Filling out forms: =20 Every day, we fill out forms that ask us whether we are married or single. People joined in a civil union don't fit into either category. People with civil unions should be able to identify themselves as a single family unit, but misrepresenting oneself on official documents can be considered fraud and carries potential serious criminal penalties.=20 =20 -Separate & Unequal -- Second-Class Status: =20 Even if there were no substantive differences in the way the law treate= d marriages and civil unions, the fact that a civil union remains a separate status just for gay people represents real and powerful inequality. We've been down this road before in this country and should not kid ourselves that a separate institution just for gay people is a just solution here either. Our constitution requires legal equality for all. Including gay and lesbian couples within existing marriage laws is the fairest and simplest thing to do. =20 How real are these differences between marriage and civil unions, given that a federal law and some state laws discriminate against all marriages of same-sex couples? =20 Would any of this change immediately with marriage of same-sex couples? Probably not, because married same-sex couples will face other layers o= f discrimination against their marriages. Right now, a federal law denies recognition of same-sex unions conferred by any state for purposes of all federal programs and requirements and over 30 state laws do the same. Ending discrimination in marriage does not mean the end of all discrimination, but using the term "marriage" rather than "civil union" is an essential first step to opening the door and addressing whether continued governmental discrimination against civil marriages of gay an= d lesbian people makes sense.=20 =20 Marriage and civil unions remain different, both in practice and in principle.=20 =20 First, more than a dozen states have not taken a discriminatory positio= n against civil marriages of gay and lesbian couples. In those states, civilly married gay and lesbian couples should be able to live and travel freely and without fear that their relationship will be disrespected. =20 Second, even as to those states with discriminatory laws, legally married gay and lesbian couples from those states may well face some discrimination in some quarters, but their marriages will also be treated with legal respect in other arenas. Marriages are far more likely to be respected by others than newly minted "civil unions." =20 Using the term marriage also prompts a discussion about fairness. Allowing same sex couples to marry (rather than enter a separate status= ) will allow gay and lesbian people to talk with their neighbors, their local elected officials, and the Congress about whether discrimination against their marriages is fair. Where gay and lesbian people and their children are part of the social fabric, is it right to continue discriminating against them in civil marriage? The federal government and states that have taken discriminatory positions against marriages o= f gay and lesbian couples could rethink those policies and go back to respecting state laws about marriage, as they have done for hundreds of years. In the end, we will not be able to have this discussion until gay and lesbian folks have what everyone else has: civil marriage. =20 http://www.yffn.org/admin/spi/marriagevsunion.html http://lesbianlife.about.com/cs/wedding/a/unionvmarriage.htm Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:21:19 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Right, it's a state by state issue, though if you marry in California and live in Iowa it's Iowa law that applies, and it's in Iowa that you file for divorce if that's how it crumbles. This is profoundly stupid, like local control of education, hospital accreditation, etc. In my utopian fantasy states would voluntarily relinqiuish control in these areas to the feds, who would establish uniform, sensible rules. Yeah, right. New York has no common law marriage status and very few rights for unmarried partners, except for what's assigned in specific contracts. Within marriage common property is the rule, including property owned before the marriage by one partner or the other, unless excluded by specific contracts (think prenups). A friend of mine going through a divorce at the moment is faced with selling the house she's owned since way before the marriage in order to give her soon-to-be ex half the proceeds. In California, where I got divorced a few years ago, common property is only what gets accrued during the marriage. My friend would be able to keep her house. I don't know the details of civil union laws. Mark At 09:33 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote: >It gets more complicated, since marriage / common property laws vary state >by state according to the basis of the law -- they aren't a federal matter >(like equal rights isn't a federal matter since there's no amendment -- it >varies state by state. > >For example, California is a common property state (based on the Napoleonic >Code), so there are no common-law unions. > >So the marriage issue here is more about insurance, custody, inheritance, >joint tenancy with right of survivorship, and visitation rights. > >The second -- and someone correct me, I don't think this applies to same sex >relationships, but I could be wrong -- a man and woman live together, >everything is officially jointly owned, BUT the extra goodies that happen >with common law (in New York, Hawaii, etc.) don't inhere -- ever. > >For example, we wouldn't have had to get married if we were in New York; we >would already have been usefully-enough married. > > >-- >All best, >Catherine Daly >c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:39:28 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Forty Acres In-Reply-To: <497533.33216.qm@web56901.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul: You're playing with numbers. The average=20 contribution was small, but the percentage of the=20 kitty that came from large donors was enormous, better than 50%. It's a good thing Obama won, but we don't have to=20 exaggerate its significance. One or another=20 victory has been seen as permanent game-changers=20 by various political persuasions. Remember the=20 Gingerich revolution? That one was stopped in=20 its tracks, incidentally, by a high-stakes roll of the dice by Bill Clinton. Obama has a relatively low-cost, in political=20 terms, opportunity for change while large=20 percentages of the population experience the=20 country as in crisis. That probably ends when the=20 economy improves. The better he does at helping=20 the economy recover the less opportunity he'll=20 have for costly (in dollars and political=20 capital) changes. Health care is the low-hanging=20 fruit--it's a pocket-book issue with immediate,=20 tangible results, both for average voters and for=20 the large donors who funded the campaign. I'd=20 love to see it happen, and more radically than=20 Obama seems willing to risk. The question is=20 whether, if he had the will, there would be much=20 groundswell for costly investment whose wisdom=20 would only gradually be apparent. Think about=20 the endless battles over forestry management in=20 your own part of the country, which looked at=20 longterm should have been a no-brainer. Mark At 11:41 PM 11/8/2008, you wrote: >In September, the average contribution to Obama was $83. Hardly >Steve, In September, the average contribution to=20 >Obama was $83. Hardly the work of special=20 >interests. Even Republicans were saying this is=20 >how campaigns should be financed. In fact,=20 >corporations should NEVER be allowed to finance=20 >campaigns. Of course, without the interpretation=20 >of County of Santa Clara vs. Southern Pacific=20 >making corporations people, this would not be an=20 >issue. While we're at it, why not make political=20 >ads illegal on TV or radio? Like cigarettes?=20 >(Political ads are more toxic.) Paul Paul E.=20 >Nelson Global Voices Radio SPLAB! American=20 >Sentences Organic Poetry Poetry Postcard Blog=20 >Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328=20 >________________________________ From: steve=20 >russell To:=20 >POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday,=20 >November 8, 2008 12:34:43 PM Subject: Re: Forty=20 >Acres Prison: both Wole Soyinka and Mandella=20 >payed their dues. Obama's gifts are immense. &=20 >while i'm cynical of his new age sound bites,=20 >"hope", "change", whatever, what more can one do=20 >but give the guys integrity the benefit of a=20 >doubt? Really, when Obama spoke of change, he=20 >still needed an enormous sum of cash to play the=20 >political game. HOW does one CHANGE all of=20 >that??? --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Barry Schwabsky=20 > wrote: From: Barry=20 >Schwabsky Subject:=20 >Re: Forty Acres To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 >Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 11:57 AM And=20 >"son of an African chief" evokes Nelson Mandela,=20 >no? Not a bad thing, I hope...=20 >________________________________ From: Mairead=20 >Byrne To:=20 >POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, 8=20 >November, 2008 3:10:52 PM Subject: Re: Forty=20 >Acres Gabrielle, to my ears even your terms "son=20 >of an african chief, went to ruling class school=20 >in hawaii" rock the White House. Spinning in the=20 >huge drum of hope-- Mairead >>>=20 >welford@HAWAII.EDU 11/08/08 12:34 AM >>> i have=20 >been thinking about that quite a bit, yes. it's=20 >not his genealogy at all. son of an african=20 >chief, went to ruling class school in hawaii...=20 >all adds to the dampness of my=20 >celebration. small bits of hope keep poking me=20 >in the ribs but not very hard. g Gabrielle=20 >Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing=20 >Western Academic Research on Indigenous=20 >Cultures_=20 >http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317=20 >_Dora_=20 >http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378=20 >No virus found in this incoming message. Checked=20 >by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus=20 >Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007=20 >On Fri, 7 Nov 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > Not to=20 >be a wet blanket, but does anyone notice the=20 >irony in the fact that Obama is not a descendent=20 >of the people Walcott is talking about in this=20 >poem? Some lovely ideas in the images, though.=20 >Troy Camplin ________________________________=20 >From: Daniel Godston =20 >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday,=20 >November 6, 2008 3:25:16 PM Subject: Forty Acres=20 >O Forty Acres: a poem for Barack Obama from=20 >Nobel winner Derek Walcott Out of the turmoil=20 >emerges one emblem, an engraving =97 a young Negro=20 >at dawn in straw hat and overalls, an emblem of=20 >impossible prophecy, a crowd dividing like the=20 >furrow which a mule has ploughed, parting for=20 >their president: a field of snow-flecked cotton=20 >forty acres wide, of crows with predictable=20 >omens that the young ploughman ignores for his=20 >unforgotten cotton-haired ancestors, while lined=20 >on one branch, is a tense court of bespectacled=20 >owls and, on the field's receding rim =97 a=20 >gesticulating scarecrow stamping with rage at=20 >him. The small plough continues on this lined=20 >page beyond the moaning ground, the lynching=20 >tree, the tornado's black vengeance, and the=20 >young ploughman feels the change in his veins,=20 >heart, muscles, tendons, till the land lies open=20 >like a flag as dawn's sure light streaks the=20 >field and furrows wait for the sower From The=20 >New York Times Online November 5, 2008 The West=20 >Indies poet Derek Walcott, winner of the 1992=20 >Nobel Prize for Literature, writes exclusively=20 >for The Times to mark the election of Barack=20 >Obama as President=20 >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/ar= ticle5088429.ece=20 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics=20 >List is moderated & does not accept all posts..=20 >Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html > >=20 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics=20 >List is moderated & does not accept all posts.=20 >Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics=20 >List is moderated & does not accept all posts.=20 >Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=20 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics=20 >List is moderated & does not accept all posts.=20 >Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=20 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics=20 >List is moderated & does not accept all posts.=20 >Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=20 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics=20 >List is moderated & does not accept all posts.=20 >Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:= http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept=20 >all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:53:35 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Re: on Walcott and Obama In-Reply-To: <491676E7.903@hawaii.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you, Susan, for stating the obvious. Further, Obama is literally African American. No hyphen, in terms of =20= immediate genealogy. Derek Walcott is absolutely of the Americas, and the African diaspora, =20= just as my Barbadian family is. Pause and consider all the West =20 Indian folks folded up into the "African-American" category in this =20 country. The rigidity of the discussion of lineage, heritage, genealogy, here, =20= prior to your message, Susan, is surprisingly limited, essentialist, =20 and despairing, recalling all the nonsense about whether Obama is =20 "black enough." What stuns me (though it shouldn't) is the insistence on defining =20 African-American identity in such rigid terms while maintaining =20 whiteness as an absolutely nebulous necessity that's separate from =20 everything and everyone else, hovering above and shadowing genealogy, =20= culpability, and history, particularly the history of the process that =20= made Africans American in the first place. It's the same process that =20= made various Europeans American, but, if "visibly lucky," hid the =20 "taint" of the process from the skin, but not from the soul. I'd like =20= to think that all the white people who voted for Obama either already =20= understand and accept the burden of history that has always and =20 rightfully belonged to them and can now either publicly stop faking =20 the funk, or are now ready to take some steps towards being real about =20= privilege, race, racism. I'd like to think that all the white people =20= who voted for Obama did so to (maybe only symbolically) own up to all =20= the not-surprisingly race-based disparities in our system which was =20 built on slavery and disparity, accept that many people, white people, =20= rigorously assimilated colored people, benefit from this system =20 whether they like it or not, whether they're sorry or not. Once these =20= admissions can be voiced and dealt with instead of brainily wormed =20 around, guiltily whined about, or totally shirked as a responsibility, =20= once the burden of understanding and disassembling a woefully race-=20 obsessed culture is shifted to all shoulders (er, like the burden of =20 these racialized stereotypes of who's more homophobic, or religiously =20= conservative), maybe once we have some real conversations about =20 whiteness instead of always harping on blackness, we can do some real =20= self-reflexive work towards social change, and clearly, Obama won't be =20= able to make this happen alone, even if he serves as many terms as =20 FDR. This quibbling about Walcott's poem, sadly, or the unexamined =20 perpetuation of stereotypes and placement of burden re: Prop 8, says =20 something else about that readiness for even the conversation, never =20 mind the work and the sacrifice, but, I hope, only says something =20 about a few. TLB ________________________________________________________ I believe that all shapes, all surfaces and lines and shading, all =20 aspects of design evoke emotions by associations=97with traditional =20 shapes of our own culture, with the proportions, surfaces of the human =20= body, with shapes and movements in nature...[It is] in our=97the =20 designers'=97power to talk to and play with the emotional responses of =20= our audiences, just as musicians do.=09 Eva Zeisel, 2000 On Nov 9, 2008, at 00:36 AM, Susan Webster Schultz wrote: > If Obama is not African American in the traditional sense, neither =20 > is Walcott. > But read Walcott's long poem about spending time in Little Rock, =20 > Arkansas, and > read Obama's memoir about growing up in Hawai`i and then moving to =20 > South > Side, Chicago. It's not just where they come from, it's how others =20= > treated them that > matters. Both men know their (various) genealogies and can deploy =20 > them ably. > Obama's victory speech subsumed King's rhetoric into a larger =20 > field. Yes, he's > an American politician; no he's not going change America utterly. =20 > But what > a sea-change it still is! And how wonderful to see the Bush years =20 > repudiated, finally. > > Susan > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: = http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 10:01:19 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Cara Benson Subject: Re: Forty Acres MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do you happen to know how=A0the "average" contribution was calculated? Is t= hat mean or median?=A0=0A=0AEven as an Obama supporter, I was always curiou= s about that.=0A=A0=0A=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0=0ASous Rature=A0=0A=0A=A0=0A=0A=0A= =0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Paul Nelson =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Saturday, November 8, 20= 08 11:41:57 PM=0ASubject: Re: Forty Acres=0A=0AIn September, the average co= ntribution to Obama was $83. Hardly=0ASteve,=0A=0AIn September, the average= contribution to Obama was $83. Hardly the work of special interests. Even = Republicans were saying this is how campaigns should be financed. In fact, = corporations should NEVER be allowed to finance campaigns. Of course, witho= ut the interpretation of County of Santa Clara vs. Southern Pacific making = corporations people, this would not be an issue.=0A=0AWhile we're at it, wh= y not make political ads illegal on TV or radio? Like cigarettes? (Politica= l ads are more toxic.)=0A=0APaul=0A=0APaul E. Nelson =0A=0AGlobal Voices Ra= dio=0ASPLAB!=0AAmerican Sentences=0AOrganic Poetry=0APoetry Postcard Blog= =0A=0AIlalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______= __________________________=0AFrom: steve russell = =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 12:3= 4:43 PM=0ASubject: Re: Forty Acres=0A=0APrison: both Wole Soyinka and Mande= lla payed their dues. Obama's gifts are immense. & while i'm cynical of his= new age sound bites, "hope", "change", whatever, what more can one do but = give the guys integrity the benefit of a doubt? Really, when Obama spoke of= change, he still needed an enormous sum of cash to play the political game= . HOW does one CHANGE all of that???=0A=0A--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Barry Schwab= sky wrote:=0AFrom: Barry Schwabsky =0ASubject: Re: Forty Acres=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFA= LO.EDU=0ADate: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 11:57 AM=0A=0AAnd "son of an Afr= ican chief" evokes Nelson Mandela, no? Not a bad=0Athing, I hope...=0A=0A= =0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Mairead Byrne =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Saturday, 8 November, 200= 8 3:10:52 PM=0ASubject: Re: Forty Acres=0A=0AGabrielle, to my ears even you= r terms "son of an african chief, went to=0Aruling class school in hawaii" = rock the White House.=0ASpinning in the huge drum of hope--=0AMairead=0A=0A= >>> welford@HAWAII.EDU 11/08/08 12:34 AM >>>=0Ai have been thinking about t= hat quite a bit, yes.=A0 it's not his genealogy=0Aat all.=A0 son of an afri= can chief, went to ruling class school in hawaii...=0Aall adds to the dampn= ess of my celebration.=A0 small bits of hope keep=0Apoking me in the ribs b= ut not very hard.=A0 g=0A=0AGabrielle Welford, Ph.D.=0A_Too Many Deaths: De= colonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous=0ACultures_=0Ahttp://www= .theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317=0A_Dora_=0Ahtt= p://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378=0A=0ANo= virus found in this incoming message.=0AChecked by AVG Free Edition.=0AVer= sion: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007=0A= =0AOn Fri, 7 Nov 2008, Troy Camplin wrote:=0A=0A> Not to be a wet blanket, = but does anyone notice the irony in the fact that=0AObama is not a descende= nt of the people Walcott is talking about in this poem?=0ASome lovely ideas= in the images, though.=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A______________________= __________=0AFrom: Daniel Godston =0ATo: POETICS@LI= STSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 3:25:16 PM=0ASubject:= Forty Acres=0A=0AO=0AForty Acres: a poem for Barack Obama from Nobel winne= r Derek Walcott=0A=0AOut of the turmoil emerges one emblem, an engraving = =97=0Aa young Negro at dawn in straw hat and overalls,=0Aan emblem of impos= sible prophecy, a crowd=0Adividing like the furrow which a mule has ploughe= d,=0Aparting for their president: a field of snow-flecked cotton=0Aforty ac= res wide, of crows with predictable omens=0Athat the young ploughman ignore= s for his unforgotten=0Acotton-haired ancestors, while lined on one branch,= is a tense=0Acourt of bespectacled owls and, on the field's receding rim = =97=0Aa gesticulating scarecrow stamping with rage at him.=0AThe small plou= gh continues on this lined page=0Abeyond the moaning ground, the lynching t= ree, the tornado's=0Ablack vengeance,=0Aand the young ploughman feels the c= hange in his veins,=0Aheart, muscles, tendons,=0Atill the land lies open li= ke a flag as dawn's sure=0Alight streaks the field and furrows wait for the= sower=0A=0AFrom The New York Times Online=0ANovember 5, 2008=0A=0AThe West= Indies poet Derek Walcott, winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize for=0ALiterature= , writes exclusively for The Times to mark the election of Barack=0AObama a= s President=0A=0Ahttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_america= s/us_elections/article5088429.ece=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe= Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check=0Aguidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html=0A=0A>=0A> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not ac= cept all posts. Check=0Aguidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu= /poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics = List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A& sub/uns= ub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. C= heck guidelines=0A& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.= html=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated = & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A& sub/unsub info: http://ep= c.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check g= uidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A= =0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does no= t accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.e= du/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 13:05:46 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: Corretta Scott King said... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Troy, that was a thoughtful response, and thank you for thinking about it. To be honest I'm not interested in marriage myself, and have many concerns about the institution of marriage for anyone wanting it. However, it's still none of my business if someone wants it, I'm just saying. And yes, you're right about the views many Americans, especially religious Americans of any color have about this idea of homosexuality being a "choice." Cultures with fundamentals of dualistic foundations like monotheism trade "choice" against the formation of belief that two is the best number to shoot from: God and Satan, Male and Female, Black and White, etc. America can't even seem to support values outside of a Democrat and Republican party system. Christianity in particular in American has reductive qualities which marginalize with a world-view from proper biblical points of reference. American colonists were HORRIFIED by the openly bisexual, homosexual, transsexual Native Americans of this early pagan continent. There are Native American nations who had multiple genders, which confused and FREAKED many of the early white Americans. Well, not so much the Scotts and Irish who settled in Appalachia maybe, but certainly the Virginians and the Puritans, even the Quakers. Am I saying we're too entrenched to get out of it? No, I mean look at many European countries who are also steeped in Christianity, they've become more tolerant, but they also forced the issue of progress with governmental intervention and laws. I say this because I'm under the impression that the Libertarian Party is about less governmental intervention. But I admit I know little about that party, but that's the gist I've gotten from them. I'm actually for MORE regulation of all kinds, especially when it comes to civil rights. I'm not believing for a minute that it will make The Haters like queers more, but it will protect queers who want to be productive, contributing citizens if they so choose. Back in the early 90s I heard Bill Clinton give a speech in DC when he was first running for president, it was at some gay pride event, or march, or something. He said, and I remember him clearly saying this, that Yes we should be allowed to be married, have the same rights, etc. He instead gave us the "right" of "Don't Ask Don't Tell" which was tantamount to saying, "No, you're not equal, unless you're a killing machine." But I remember how we all CHEERED and ROARED with excitement when Clinton addressed us in DC. And weeks after he and Gore won The White House I took a lesbian friend of mine to see KD Lang for her birthday, it was Lang's "Ingenue Tour" I believe. But Lang ANNOUNCED from the stage these very same things Clinton promised, and we all CHEERED and ROARED with excitement! And I still remember her saying through a cloud of bubbles (she had a giant bubble-making machine on stage like Lawrence Welk), "I'm so glad Bill's in office!" We all CHEERED and ROARED again. We were literally ecstatic! Little did we know the real Bill Clinton at that time. We were such suckers for his promises at a time when we were SO EXHAUSTED from Reagan/Bush, and hemorrhaging friends and the art world to AIDS. It blew our minds that he would even speak to us. But we were SO duped! He got our votes and promptly dumped us. WORSE than dumping us, MUCH WORSE, that asshole signed the Defense of Marriage Act. Wow! I will always, ALWAYS hate Bill Clinton for that signing! Bill Clinton's legacy of lies is why I'm skeptical of Obama. BUT, I do believe Obama is a better human being than Bill Clinton ever was, even on Clinton's best days. I want Obama to be the man of conscience he appears to be. And I hope he is. But still, saying queers should be allowed to visit their dying partner in the hospital is hardly a step up from what Clinton gave us. Both Biden and Obama used this remark about hospital visitation, and it made me angry. But AT LEAST THEY DIDN'T lie. I mean, neither man promised us things like Clinton, so, I am grateful for that. I'd rather be told up front what to expect, which they gave. Getting our greedy, bloodstained American hands out of Iraq was most important to me when voting. Everyone who voted for Obama had their reasons. Everyone FELT GOOD voting for Obama for their own reasons, and mine was his steadfast claim that Iraq was wrong, was always wrong, and we should get out. I don't care about his gender or the color of his skin, his courage to stand up against the American invasion and occupation of Iraq is what sent me to vote. And I don't use the word "courage" lightly. It takes REAL courage to tell a nation of people that they fucked up. But he did it, and we made him president, so that alone makes me hopeful. CAConrad *HOMOPHOBIA and a Lexicon of Violence: ** http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html* ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 15:36:43 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Re: The New Regime & what is possible Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain Hi Stephen, et al. I agree. We have to give this change a chance, and give it our input. Of = course, those of=20 us who are determined to be cynical &/or pessimistic will be so. It i= s what we used to call=20 their "stance", part of their core (please excuse the four letter word) i= dentity.=20=20 But for the rest of us, now is the time to do everything we can to move t= he new agenda=20 as far as we can to the left. Even a few centimeters will help. And not o= nly for poetry, or=20 for the arts. It's the social contract we have to heal before it dies com= pletely. I know I=20 don't have to mention that poets are traditionally good at this. For me, hope and joy are never to be denied, when we get a chance at them= . We get so=20 few. The past 30 years have been a backlash against the 60s and early 70s= , and the great=20 social experiments that have been all but forgotten. The little I knew ab= out past cycles of=20 progress/backlash, gave me no hope that I would see the tide begin to tur= n in my=20 lifetime. Obama has a great grassroots organization for change in place, and hopefu= lly he and all=20 those who came together for this campaign will continue to use that org t= o help push real=20 change through a reluctant congress. It's up to all of us to speak out as= to what real=20 change should & could be. As for me, I'm taking this week off to relax and celebrate and then I'm p= utting my=20 [anarchist] shoulder to the wheel.=20 Good wishes to all of us.=20 Diane di Prima =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 13:53:21 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Fw: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I do find it funny that someone on a poetry group is complaining about using words to label things, as that's what all words do. Words do mean things, even if there may be some ambiguity. And like things are typically groups together under a single label. It's useful to label wolves as wolves, and wolves, foxes, coyotes, and jackals as dogs. If I did not intend "screeching" as sexist, then it's not sexist. Your choosing to interpret it as sexist means you are the poor interpreter of my meaning. It's simply bad textual analysis on your part, attributing meaning the author did not in any way intend. Next you'll be telling me MacBeth is about growing pine trees in Scotland. And you will note that I did engage the issues, and I was decent enough to acknowledge that you had to. It seems you don't have the decency to extend to me the same courtesy. My pride is not hurt -- though your thinking it does clearly IS sexist on your part. Perhaps your sexism is why you see sexism where there isn't any? The real absurdity here is that you don't seem to care that you and I in fact agree that marriage should be legally extended to everyone, regardless of the sex of the people getting married. What seems to matter most to you is that I'm not a liberal like yourself. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: amy king To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2008 10:31:35 AM Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] Troy, Continuing to label my responses as so many "liberal tactics" carries on your condescension, and indeed, your characterization of my original reply as "screeching" most certainly is sexist, whether I "choose" to read it that way or not. You're trying to shuck the weight of your words by making the weight they carry my burden to accept or deny them -- but you are the one flinging such nasty characterizations, and you have felt it historically necessary on this list to do so with many people (i.e. "liberal tactics" is but one seeming insult in your Poetics List arsenal). Why the urge to label and characterize responses on this list at all? Why not take your own advice and just "engage the issues", as you continue to claim that I did not do. In fact, I have done nothing but respond to your claims (re-read the whole thread below), as well as point out the ad hominem strains in your response. It is this latter aspect of my reply that hurts your pride and raises the defensive hairs on your back. But your style of arguing is full of unnecessary bait & attack that reminds me of Rush Limbaugh's "responses" to feminist claims -- if you call her an angry cow, you no longer have to listen to what she says; you need only paint a picture of her and ask that she be tamed, or try to tame her yourself. "Screeching" runs along those same lines, like it or not ... Regarding the meat of your argument, I'd like to know when the U.S. Government forced any church to hire people whose lifestyles they didn't approve of? I really don't know about any instances of such legal intervention with any church regarding the hiring of gay clergy and am quite curious. Were these instances in the Catholic church? Additionally, I'd like to point out, though I use the term too, that even "gay marriages" seems misguided. Marriages are marriages are marriages. We don't say, "The government should perform bi-racial marriages." Instead, we demand that everyone have the right to marry. I suppose it would be difficult to keep saying, 'Give the right to marry to the GLBT community,' but perhaps demanding "Marriage Equality" instead could be a simple start to eliminating the marginialized thinking this issue sustains. Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 9:45 PM I will only quickly note that this is the kind of argument I was merely asking for, and that it is quite different in tone from the other posting -- though I will criticize you on the fact that if mine was condescending, this was off the barometer. Let's both make an effort to keep it civilized. Further, it's you who chose to interpret my comment about screeching, etc. in a sexist fashion. Another all-too-typical liberal tactic: to shut down arguments with accusations of racism, sexism, etc. rather than engaging the issues. My experience is that too many liberals are screechers, regardless of sex. If you choose to take offense at my remarks, remember that it is you who are choosing to take offense -- there is nothing inherently offensive in what I wrote. Finally, a good idea is a good idea, no matter where it comes from. I think almost every thought of Marx's is pure evil -- but when he has a good idea, he has a good idea. Don't disregard Sun Tzu just because he was an aristocrat -- he was an aristocrat who won wars (if I were a liberal, I would accuse you of disregarding him because he was Chinese, something I'm certain is absurd). That having been said, I do take several of your points. The civil rights arguments are an excellent approach. Having been raised a Baptist in Kentucky, and being now married to an Hispanic, I think I have some expertise in the areas of which I speak. My experience is that religious people rather claim that homosexuality is "unnatural." This is quickly undermined by the aforementioned examples, which puts them in a tight rhetorical spot, as they now have to regroup and argue that "well, we're not animals. We're supposed to be better." I typically then direct them to their previous argument. If they claim it's a mater of choice, I can and have proven otherwise. Having demonstrated the incoherence of their argument, they have typically then been more receptive to other arguments regarding civil rights, etc. The real issue for many religious people, I think, is less that the government "recognize" gay marriage than that they have a fear that the government will turn around and force their church to perform gay marriage ceremonies. There have been several cases of churches being forced by law to hire someone whose lifestyle they did not approve of, so their fears are not entirely unfounded. It seems to me, then, that if we are going to win this argument, we have to figure out a way to assuage those concerns. And if we are truly believers in a separation of church and state, we cannot use the state to force the churches to accept our world view. That should, in fact, require persuasion rather than laws. One could also point out to fundamentalists that there is much prohibited by the Bible we do not bother with, so why are we picking and choosing? I recommend Peter McWilliams' "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do" for some excellent arguments along those lines. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: amy king To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 7:22:56 PM Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] Troy, I know this will be difficult to admit, but your reply, and often times your style of arguing here, is hypocritical in its condescension. Having grown up on the Bible Belt in Stone Mountain, GA, I used to be one of those "religious people" and, as such, continue to communicate with them. My response to you *is* my response to those religious people you've determined I don't understand. However, I don't need you to explain to me "how people think" and how to respond, verbatim, to "African Americans and Hispanics" -- for you to be so elementary and condescending is just another tactic to avoid engaging my reasonable response to your arguments, which I find as base as those put forth by religious people you dubbed yourself an expert on. Now, I'll explain to you how my reply, as an argument, works. 1. I refuse to engage with religious folks, and anyone else, on the basis of the "Nature vs. Nurture" level simply because to do so inevitably devolves into a moral discussion typically reliant on the Holy Bible as the authority of choice. I don't base my argument on what the Holy Bible claims, but instead, keep the argument framed within the rights provided by the U.S. Constitution. Just because "that's how religious people think" doesn't mean I must concede and allow them to use that bible as the foundation of this argument (recall separation of church and state). I can engage them without such concessions -- and do. In fact, the argument for civil rights, however based in morality vs. immortality for them, is truly not about whose moral barometer is correct at all, as I imagine you know -- it is a matter of rights *for everyone* despite and including our differences, even moral ones, as acknowledged by separation of church and state. 2. My calling the "Nature vs. Nurture" debate a perversion should have tipped you off, since the rest didn't. They like to call homosexuality a "perversion," but debating its existence as one of nature v. nurture to determine who gets what rights is itself a perversion. 3. Further, you have included in your "argument" the very kind of thinking religious people resort to -- that of arguing the very existence of homosexuality as "proven" by its existence in nature. Who cares? (That's a rhetorical one, Troy. I know who cares.) The point is that you argue a biological basis for homosexuality as evidenced in the behavior of animals. Religious folks will argue in return that we aren't animals and shouldn't be gay just because they might be by some freak of nature. (Plus they like to take being gay a step further with this argument and ask if we'd like to marry goats next -- with a snort and a 'ha ha' to finalize the absurdity of the entire proposition). Why resort to such tactics? Just because they do? Just because that's where they might find their moral footing? Nearly equating homosexuality with animals (I know, you didn't) only denigrates any merit for seeking rights as people who are different than them -- despite our differences, even in morality -- and certainly does not change their minds. It never has. Bringing the proof of animal behavior into the argument only distracts and opens the door for tasteless jokes at the expense of any legitimacy for the claim to civil rights for each and every person in this country. (I say in the face of whether we should exist or not, we do and we will not go away, marriage rights or no. Whether we choose to be gay or are "born that way", who I love is my *choice* and I certainly have the right to choose). Finally, characterizing my reply as "screeching" and labeling it as the "liberal social agenda" -- even only by association -- as well as claiming I didn't read your post in favor of "spouting off talking points" is a typically sexist admonishment and so much ad hominem name calling used to avoid engaging the tenets of the argument I actually laid out in direct reply to your post. In this elementary manner, you get to ride in on your noble steed and re-frame our discussion by writing me off as some sort of lil' unworldly & uninformed lady who needs the religious-minded explained to me so that I can "know my enemy" via another nobleman you conjure, Sun Tzu. I'm sorry; I won't bat my eyes and be impressed that you "found my naivete out." Instead, I'll suggest you engage with the actual basis of my argument and ask you to please stop being unnecessarily instructive. Consider us on equal footing intellectually and go from there. In response to your last post regarding why folks who voted for Obama would also vote for Prop 8, I would say that the African Americans and Hispanics you cite were not solely responsible for its passage. Yes, I understand on an exit poll that they voted for it 7 to 10, their turn-out was up percentage points, etc. But this Prop 8 campaign was quite well-funded by the Mormon church and was built and thrived on fear. McCain also attempted to run his campaign on fear; his tactic lost where the Mormons scared a good number of Californians into believing all sorts of ridiculous notions reliant on the idea that marriage itself would be threatened and worthless if everyone were allowed that right. Regarding the communities you name: the LGBT community did not go into those neighborhoods and educate; the Mormon fear campaign ran rampant, hence the exit polls. It's a complicated mix of who sold who on what fear; who spoke out for their rights and where, and who simply doesn't care if everyone has the same rights, particularly where their own aren't threatened. But to take on the religious tenets of the Mormon church (Joseph Smith's ideals, no less!) and debate them on their way of thinking, particularly in terms of Nature vs. Nurture as you suggest, certainly will not advance the fight for those rights nor will it render the fear mongering ineffective. To change the ways of thinking about this issue and frame the debate in legal terms will go a lot further, and has historically done so. In other words: It's okay if you don't like my lifestyle, or if you don't like my skin tone, or you think my religion is not as good as yours; it's your right to think that way, but I'm a citizen of this country, pay my taxes, participate in the cogs of our economy, and am a citizen under the eyes of the law -- ergo, I deserve my rights the same as every other person in this country. Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 3:03 PM Sometimes I wonder if anyone actually reads what anyone says and considers their actual arguments or if they just act like politicians and spout off their talking points regardless. The question of whether or not "being gay" is natural or a choice is not "beyond moot" to those againstgay marriage. To such people, their belief that being gay is a choice has everything to do with it. They would argue that choosing to be gay is like choosing to be a murderer, and insofar as both are immoral, both should be opposed. I, of course, to not consider this to be the case. I too understand that sexuality is fluid and that, as a species, Homo sapiens, like our close relatives the bonobos, are a bisexual species. Less bisexual than bonobos, but more so than chimpanzees. The fact that hazy sexuality is a biological fact in the human species is not moot, and is in fact a benefit to those who want to argue for civil rightsrecognitions. If you want to make any headway on this issue, you have to understand the position of the opposition. "Know your enemy as you know yourself and you will not fail." -- Sun Tzu. The reason so many liberals can't get anything done is that you think screeching at the top of your lungs is what gets things done, and you don't even bother to try to argue your point. And your lack of understanding of how people think -- especially religious people -- is what prevents you from understanding how Obama can win the Presidency, but the African-Americans and Hispanics who voted for them voted against the liberal social agenda. I'm trying to explain it to you, and all you have to say is that their reasons, which they consider to be central to their belief system, is merely a "moot point." It's condescending to them, and won't win any arguments with them. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: amy king To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 11:20:44 AM Subject: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] Troy, The question of being gay as "natural" or a "choice" is beyond moot. Since the constitution provides everyone equal rights - ahem - I should be allowed to marry whomever I choose, so long as they consent and choose me as well. To devolve into such debate over whether the selection of one's spouse is a choice, a coercion, a divine intervention, a prophetic union, or what-have-you is to distract from the purposes & securities provided by the constitution. That we *must* be separated by gender was not something our forefathers predicted would be problematic -- any more than when they wrote that some people weren't exactly human and could be owned as chattel. But in an age when it is beginning to be acknowledged that gender lines are, at best, blurred and complex, sexes are multiple (despite "corrective" measures - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/magazine/24intersexkids.html & http://www.jenellerose.com/htmlpostings/intersex_babies_controversy.htm), and, like it or not, gender is fluid, to create an amendment defining marriage as between a "man" and a "woman" is institutionalized bias. Devolving into the archaic debate of just what penis and vagina should be allowed a legally-sanctioned U.S. Gov't issued contract is silly and a distracting fallacy. Two people should be granted the same rights as any other two people as written in the constitution. This debate heralds back to the not-so-old one of whether it was "right" that blacks and whites be allowed the same rights under the law, as if the races were two different species (see anti-miscegenation laws). It wasn't so long ago that people thought it "unnatural" to see two separate skin tones loving one another. Some still think it "unnatural." The debate of nature vs nurture is itself a perversion. An aside: I think the passing of Prop 8 speaks moreover to the hope that by denying the GLBT community the right to marry will somehow abolish the very existence of that community -- at least, that's my pessimistic read on the whole debacle. Gays/lesbians are the latest "Other" just as immigrants remain "Alien" on the soil of a people obsessed with "getting and keeping theirs." Mark, Separations of symbols vs. legalities not withstanding, civil unions and domestic partnerships do NOT provide the same legal benefits that marriages do. It's all in the poetic wording, no? "Separate but equal" has historically betrayed everyone's "good" intentions. If "civil unions" were to be federally-mandated, then perhaps that would cover the legal protections that marriages do, but until then: What are some of the limitations of civil unions? Civil unions are different from marriage, and that difference has wide-ranging implications that make the two institutions unequal. Here is a quick look at some of the most significant differences: -Portability: Marriages are respected state to state for all purposes, but questions remain about how civil unions will be treated in other states. GLAD believes there are strong arguments that civil unions deserve respect across the country just like marriages. But the two appellate courts that have addressed the issue (in Connecticut and Georgia) have disrespected them based on the fact that their states do not grant civil unions themselves. -Ending a Civil Union: If you are married, you can get divorced in any state in which you are a resident. But if states continue to disrespect civil unions, there is no way to end the relationship other than by establishing residency in Vermont and filing for divorce there. This has already created problems for some couples who now have no way to terminate their legal commitment. -Federal Benefits: According to a 1997 GAO report, civil marriage brings with it at least 1,049 legal protections and responsibilities from the federal government, including the right to take leave from work to care for a family member, the right to sponsor a spouse for immigration purposes, and Social Security survivor benefits that can make a difference between old age in poverty and old age in security. Civil unions bring none of these critical legal protections. -Taxes & Public Benefits for the Family: Because the federal government does not respect civil unions, a couple with a civil union will be in a kind of limbo with regard to governmental functions performed by both state and federal governments, such as taxation, pension protections, provision of insurance for families, and means-tested programs like Medicaid. Even when states try to provide legal protections, they may be foreclosed from doing so in joint federal/state programs. -Filling out forms: Every day, we fill out forms that ask us whether we are married or single. People joined in a civil union don't fit into either category. People with civil unions should be able to identify themselves as a single family unit, but misrepresenting oneself on official documents can be considered fraud and carries potential serious criminal penalties. -Separate & Unequal -- Second-Class Status: Even if there were no substantive differences in the way the law treated marriages and civil unions, the fact that a civil union remains a separate status just for gay people represents real and powerful inequality. We've been down this road before in this country and should not kid ourselves that a separate institution just for gay people is a just solution here either. Our constitution requires legal equality for all. Including gay and lesbian couples within existing marriage laws is the fairest and simplest thing to do. How real are these differences between marriage and civil unions, given that a federal law and some state laws discriminate against all marriages of same-sex couples? Would any of this change immediately with marriage of same-sex couples? Probably not, because married same-sex couples will face other layers of discrimination against their marriages. Right now, a federal law denies recognition of same-sex unions conferred by any state for purposes of all federal programs and requirements and over 30 state laws do the same. Ending discrimination in marriage does not mean the end of all discrimination, but using the term "marriage" rather than "civil union" is an essential first step to opening the door and addressing whether continued governmental discrimination against civil marriages of gay and lesbian people makes sense. Marriage and civil unions remain different, both in practice and in principle. First, more than a dozen states have not taken a discriminatory position against civil marriages of gay and lesbian couples. In those states, civilly married gay and lesbian couples should be able to live and travel freely and without fear that their relationship will be disrespected. Second, even as to those states with discriminatory laws, legally married gay and lesbian couples from those states may well face some discrimination in some quarters, but their marriages will also be treated with legal respect in other arenas. Marriages are far more likely to be respected by others than newly minted "civil unions." Using the term marriage also prompts a discussion about fairness. Allowing same sex couples to marry (rather than enter a separate status) will allow gay and lesbian people to talk with their neighbors, their local elected officials, and the Congress about whether discrimination against their marriages is fair. Where gay and lesbian people and their children are part of the social fabric, is it right to continue discriminating against them in civil marriage? The federal government and states that have taken discriminatory positions against marriages of gay and lesbian couples could rethink those policies and go back to respecting state laws about marriage, as they have done for hundreds of years. In the end, we will not be able to have this discussion until gay and lesbian folks have what everyone else has: civil marriage. http://www.yffn.org/admin/spi/marriagevsunion.html http://lesbianlife.about.com/cs/wedding/a/unionvmarriage.htm Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 15:18:28 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Re: Fw: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] In-Reply-To: <173775.39965.qm@web46212.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Troy, =A0 1.=A0 You are not merely =93labeling=94 things when you insist on slinging around your =93liberal ta= ctics=94 accusations.=A0 You are name calling, and you are attempting to group my responses *to your claims* in with a group that = you clearly revile.=A0 These efforts are ad hominem attacks, meant to distract and detract from my responses.=A0=20 =A0 Who here has dubbed you anything, Troy?=A0 Shall I call you a =93neo-liberal=94 repeatedly and deride your =93neo-libe= ral tactics=94 at every turn so that you can become mired in defending why you = are not one?=A0 =A0What would be the point if we are truly attempting to have a constructive discussion?=A0 Again, I ask you, why do you compulsively need, in your every response, to group everyone together on this list as a liberal or some such nonsense?=A0 One only need look through your posts in the archives to understand this as one method of your argumen= tation.=A0=20 =A0 2.=A0 The road to hell is paved with good intentions.=A0 However, the words we select certainly imply many things.=A0 Your constant need to c= haracterize responses with certain adjectives carries a responsibility that you would like to shi= rk.=A0 Telling me that I =93chose to read it that way; that isn=92t what you meant=94 doesn=92t magically erase your responsibilit= y for the words you have chosen.=A0=20 =A0 When was the last time you heard a man=92s response characterized as a screech or any other typically nasty adjective meant to imply that he = has a shrill voice from which one cannot decipher his meaning?=A0 To imply that= I =93screeched=94 in response to your argument, as well as only =93spouted off some talking points=94 instea= d of =93actually reading=94 your response is a transparent effort to render my reply as one = based in ignorance and an emotional voice raising that doesn=92t let you hear wha= t I=92m saying =96 your characterizations are, at best, in bad faith, and one need = only read through the tread below to see that falsity of your ongoing accusations:=A0= I continue to respond to your claims in each post, despite your name calling (again, see below). =A0 But to make this point clear, let me give you some recent examples of how intentions don=92t render the social meaning and weight of = words invisible-- =A0 *=A0 Ralph Nader on Barack Obama:=20 =A0 "To put it very simply, he is our first African-American president... But his choice, basically, is whether he's go= ing to be Uncle Sam for the people of this country, or Uncle Tom for the giant corporations." =A0 Now, I=92m sure Ralph Nader didn=92t =93intend=94 to conjure any racist history and implications by determining that Obama would be an =93Un= cle Tom=94 for the giant corporations because surely he would say the same thin= g about a white candidate, no? =A0 *=A0 Bill O=92Reilly on Michelle Obama: =A0 "I don't want to go on a lynching party against Michelle Obama unless there's evidence." =A0 Again, I=92m sure O=92Reilly didn=92t =93intend=94 anything racist by associating Michelle Obama with the violent atrocities that African America= ns have suffered by deciding he wouldn=92t lynch her =96 because he would say = such a thing about a white person too, no?=A0=20 =A0 =A0 *=A0 A mild version of the sexist language in the same camp as =93screeching=94 that recently rear= ed and celebrated its ugly head is smeared all over the world in relation to Hilla= ry Clinton: =A0 "HENS CACKLE. So do witches. And, so does the front-runner in the Democratic presidential contest. Former Bill Clinton adviser Dick Morris recently described Hillary Clinton's laugh as 'loud, inappropriate, and mirthless. . . . A scary sound that was somewhere betwee= n a cackle and a screech.'" http://mediacrit.wetpaint.com/page/Sexist+Language+in+Media+Coverage+of+Hil= lary+Clinton?t=3Danon =A0 But something tells me that my efforts here are futile.=A0 Because again, y= ou accuse me of all manner of nastiness, including not engaging you on the issues, which I have consisten= tly done, and yet, you have ignored my last response and direct question to wha= t seems to be a far-fetched claim.=A0 Again, just when has the gov=92t intervened and forced any church to hire someone = of the gay lifestyle?=A0 Perhaps it has happened and that example has instilled some real fear in some of those who supporte= d Prop 8, but I cannot imagine who since you offer no evidence =85=20 =A0 I=92ll say one last thing about the marriage issue.=A0 Marriage ultimately = isn=92t the issue for me.=A0 The greater issues at hand are 1.) =A0Scapegoating African Americans= and Hispanics is way too easy.=A0 Many, many more white people pushed Prop 8 through.=A0 The powers-that-be enjoy it when we begin to split and compare who is more disenfranchised; their powers are secure in this type of fragmentation.=A0 = More importantly, how does this power work structurally and how do we address it?=A0 2.)=A0 The tenets of my argument = are better outlined below, but overall, this is an issue, in simple terms, that shows one major= ity group in America had no problem denying another group of Americans a constitutionally-guaran= teed right.=A0 Where is the hope in that?=A0=20 =A0 The amazing contrast that took place last week was the vote for hope via the election of Obama on the one hand while a number of Californians denied a group of Americans a specific right on the other.=A0 = What does that truly say about the state of our nation and our personal anxieties as Americans?=A0 That we must always = have some sort of enemy at hand to feel secure?=A0 =A0That we are not open to examining why we believe what we do, esp when it is exclusionary, and how we enact those bel= iefs we seem to hold dear?=A0 That we must always label every person in an effort to keep them in the camps and groups= to highlight *who is not us*? =A0=A0=A0Apparently so, it seems, and that line = of thinking is pervasive, dangerous, and all important, reliant on insipid seg= regation first and foremost, even here. =A0And that line of thinking is exactly how Bush got so many Americans to support the imperialist occupation we call a war and got so so many of =93those Iraqis= =94 maimed and brutally murdered =85 =A0 =A0 Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Fw: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark= ] To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 4:53 PM I do find it funny that someone on a poetry group is complaining about usin= g words to label things, as that's what all words do. Words do mean things, even if there may be some ambiguity. And like things are typically groups together under a single label. It's useful to label wolves as wolves, and wolves, foxes, coyotes, and jackals as dogs.=20 If I did not intend "screeching" as sexist, then it's not sexist. Your choosing to interpret it as sexist means you are the poor interpreter = of my meaning. It's simply bad textual analysis on your part, attributing meaning the author did not in any way intend. Next you'll be telling me MacBeth is about growing pine trees in Scotland.=20 And you will note that I did engage the issues, and I was decent enough to acknowledge that you had to. It seems you don't have the decency to extend to me the same courtesy. My pride is not hurt -- though your thinking it do= es clearly IS sexist on your part. Perhaps your sexism is why you see sexism w= here there isn't any? The real absurdity here is that you don't seem to care that you and I in fact agree that marriage should be legally extended to everyone, regardless= of the sex of the people getting married. What seems to matter most to you is = that I'm not a liberal like yourself. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: amy king To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2008 10:31:35 AM Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] Troy, Continuing to label my responses as so many "liberal tactics" carries on your condescension, and indeed, your characterization of my original rep= ly as "screeching" most certainly is sexist, whether I "choose" to read it that way or not. You're trying to shuck the weight of your words b= y making the weight they carry my burden to accept or deny them -- but you ar= e the one flinging such nasty characterizations, and you have felt it historicall= y necessary on this list to do so with many people (i.e. "liberal tactics" is but one seeming insult in your Poetics List arsenal). Why the urge to label and characterize responses on this list at all? Why not take your own advice and just "engage the issues", as you continue to claim that I did not do. In fact, I have done nothing but resp= ond to your claims (re-read the whole thread below), as well as point out the a= d hominem strains in your response. It is this latter aspect of my reply tha= t hurts your pride and raises the defensive hairs on your back. But your sty= le of arguing is full of unnecessary bait & attack that reminds me of Rush Limbaugh's "responses" to feminist claims -- if you call her an angry cow, you no longer have to listen to what she says; you need only pai= nt a picture of her and ask that she be tamed, or try to tame her yourself. =20 "Screeching" runs along those same lines, like it or not ...=20 Regarding the meat of your argument, I'd like to know when the U.S. Government forced any church to hire people whose lifestyles they didn't approve of? I really don't know about any instances of such legal intervention with any church regarding the hiring of gay clergy and am quit= e curious. Were these instances in the Catholic church? =20 Additionally, I'd like to point out, though I use the term too, that even "gay marriages" seems misguided. Marriages are marriages are marriages. We don't say, "The government should perform bi-racial marriages." Instead, we demand that everyone have the right to marry. I suppose it would be difficult to keep saying, 'Give the right to marry to the GLBT community,' but perhaps demanding "Marriage Equality" instead could be a simple start to eliminating the marginialized thinking t= his issue sustains. =20 Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 9:45 PM I will only quickly note that this is the kind of argument I was merely ask= ing for, and that it is quite different in tone from the other posting -- thoug= h I will criticize you on the fact that if mine was condescending, this was off= the barometer. Let's both make an effort to keep it civilized. Further, it's you who chose to interpret my comment about screeching, etc. in a sexist fashion. Another all-too-typical liberal tactic: to shut down arguments wit= h accusations of racism, sexism, etc. rather than engaging the issues. My experience is that too many liberals are screechers, regardless of sex. If = you choose to take offense at my remarks, remember that it is you who are choos= ing to take offense -- there is nothing inherently offensive in what I wrote. Finally, a good idea is a good idea, no matter where it comes from. I think almost every thought of Marx's is pure evil -- but when he has a good idea, he has a good idea. Don't disregard Sun Tzu just because he was an aristocrat -- he was an aristocrat who won wars (if I wer= e a liberal, I would accuse you of disregarding him because he was Chinese, something I'm certain is absurd).=20 That having been said, I do take several of your points. The civil rights arguments are an excellent approach. Having been raised a Baptist in Kentuc= ky, and being now married to an Hispanic, I think I have some expertise in the areas of which I speak. My experience is that religious people rather claim that homosexuality is "unnatural." This is quickly undermined by the aforementioned examples, which puts them in a tight rhetorical spot, as the= y now have to regroup and argue that "well, we're not animals. We're supposed to be better." I typically then direct them to their previous argument. If they claim it's a mater of choice, I can and have proven otherwise. Having demonstrated the incoherence of their argument, they have typically then been more receptive to other arguments regarding civil right= s, etc. The real issue for many religious people, I think, is less that the government "recognize" gay marriage than that they have a fear that the government will turn around and force their church to perform gay marriage ceremonies. There have been several cases of churches being forced by law to hire someo= ne whose lifestyle they did not approve of, so their fears are not entirely unfounded. It seems to me, then, that if we are going to win this argument,= we have to figure out a way to assuage those concerns. And if we are truly believers in a separation of church and state, we cannot use the state to f= orce the churches to accept our world view. That should, in fact, require persua= sion rather than laws. One could also point out to fundamentalists that there is much prohibited by the Bible we do not bother with, so why are we picking and choosing? I recommend Peter McWilliams' "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do" for some excellent arguments along those lines.=20 Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: amy king To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 7:22:56 PM Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] Troy, I know this will be difficult to admit, but your reply, and often times you= r style of arguing here, is hypocritical in its condescension. =20 Having grown up on the Bible Belt in Stone Mountain, GA, I used to be one o= f those "religious people" and, as such, continue to communicate with them. My response to you *is* my response to those religious people you've determined I don't understand. However, I don't need you to explain to me "how people think" and how to respond, verbatim, to "African Americans and Hispanics" -- for you to be so elementary and condescending is just another tactic to avoid engaging my reasonable response to your arguments, which I find as base as those put forth by religious people you dubbed yourself an expert on. Now, I'll explain to you how my reply, as an argument, works. 1. I refuse to engage with religious folks, and anyone else, on the basis = of the "Nature vs. Nurture" level simply because to do so inevitably devolves into a moral discussion typically reliant on the Holy Bible as the authority of choice. I don't base my argument on what the Holy Bible claims, but instead, keep the argument framed within the rights provided by= the U.S. Constitution. =20 Just because "that's how religious people think" doesn't mean I must concede and allow them to use that bible as the foundation of this argument (recall separation of church and state). I can engage them withou= t such concessions -- and do. In fact, the argument for civil rights, howeve= r based in morality vs. immortality for them, is truly not about whose moral barometer is correct at all, as I imagine you know -- it is a matter of rig= hts *for everyone* despite and including our differences, even moral ones, as acknowledged by separation of church and state. 2. My calling the "Nature vs. Nurture" debate a perversion should have tipped you off, since the rest didn't. They like to call homosexuality a "perversion," but debating its existence as one of nature v. nurture to determine who gets what rights is itself a perversion. =20 =20 3. Further, you have included in your "argument" the very kind of thinking religious people resort to -- that of arguing the very existence o= f homosexuality as "proven" by its existence in nature. Who cares?=20 (That's a rhetorical one, Troy. I know who cares.) The point is that you argue a biological basis for homosexuality as evidenced in the behavior of animals. Religious folks will argue in return that we aren't animals and shouldn't be gay just because they might be by some freak of nature. (Plus they like to take being gay a step further with this argument and ask if we'd like to marry goats next -- with a snort and a 'ha ha' to finalize the absurdity of the entire proposition). =20 Why resort to such tactics? Just because they do? Just because that's where they might find their moral footing? Nearly equating homosexuality w= ith animals (I know, you didn't) only denigrates any merit for seeking rights as people who are different than them -- despite our differences, even in mora= lity -- and certainly does not change their minds. It never has. Bringing the proof of animal behavior into the argument only distracts and opens the door for tasteless jokes at the expense of any legitimacy for the claim to civil rig= hts for each and every person in this country. (I say in the face of whether w= e should exist or not, we do and we will not go away, marriage rights or no.= =20 Whether we choose to be gay or are "born that way", who I love is my *choice* and I certainly have the right to choose). Finally, characterizing my reply as "screeching" and labeling it as the "liberal social agenda" -- even only by association -- as well as claiming I didn't read your post in favor of "spouting off talking points" is a typically sexist admonishment and so much ad hominem name calling used to avoid engaging the tenets of the argument I actually laid o= ut in direct reply to your post. In this elementary manner, you get to ride i= n on your noble steed and re-frame our discussion by writing me off as some sort= of lil' unworldly & uninformed lady who needs the religious-minded explained to me so that I can "know my enemy" via another nobleman you conjure, Sun Tzu. =20 I'm sorry; I won't bat my eyes and be impressed that you "found my naivete out." Instead, I'll suggest you engage with the actual basis of my argument and ask you to please stop being unnecessarily instructive.= =20 Consider us on equal footing intellectually and go from there. =20 In response to your last post regarding why folks who voted for Obama would also vote for Prop 8, I would say that the African Americans and Hispanics = you cite were not solely responsible for its passage. Yes, I understand on an = exit poll that they voted for it 7 to 10, their turn-out was up percentage point= s, etc. But this Prop 8 campaign was quite well-funded by the Mormon church a= nd was built and thrived on fear. McCain also attempted to run his campaign o= n fear; his tactic lost where the Mormons scared a good number of Californian= s into believing all sorts of ridiculous notions reliant on the idea that marriage itself would be threatened and worthless if everyone were allowed = that right.=20 Regarding the communities you name: the LGBT community did not go into tho= se neighborhoods and educate; the Mormon fear campaign ran rampant, hence the = exit polls. It's a complicated mix of who sold who on what fear; who spoke out for their rights and where, and who simply doesn't care if everyone has the= same rights, particularly where their own aren't threatened. =20 But to take on the religious tenets of the Mormon church (Joseph Smith's ideals, no less!) and debate them on their way of thinking, particularly in terms of Nature vs. Nurture as you suggest, certainly will not advance the fight for those rights nor will it render the fear mongering ineffective. To cha= nge the ways of thinking about this issue and frame the debate in legal terms w= ill go a lot further, and has historically done so. In other words: It's okay if you don't like my lifestyle, or if you don't like my skin tone, or you think my religion is not as good as yours; it's your right to think that way, but I'm a citizen of this country, pay my taxes, participate in t= he cogs of our economy, and am a citizen under the eyes of the law -- ergo, I deserve my rights the same as every other person in this country. =20 Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 3:03 PM Sometimes I wonder if anyone actually reads what anyone says and considers their actual arguments or if they just act like politicians and spout off their talking points regardless. The question of whether or not "being gay" is natural or a choice is not "beyond moot" to those againstgay marriage. To such people, their belief that being gay is a choice has everything to do with it. They would argue that choosing to be gay is like choosing to be a murderer, and insofar as b= oth are immoral, both should be opposed. I, of course, to not consider this to = be the case. I too understand that sexuality is fluid and that, as a species, = Homo sapiens, like our close relatives the bonobos, are a bisexual species. Less bisexual than bonobos, but more so than chimpanzees. The fact that hazy sexuality is a biological fact in the human species is not moot, and is in = fact a benefit to those who want to argue for civil rightsrecognitions. If you w= ant to make any headway on this issue, you have to understand the position of t= he opposition. "Know your enemy as you know yourself and you will not fail." -- Sun Tzu. The reason so many liberals can't get anything done is that you think screeching at the top of your lungs is what gets things done, and you don't even bother to try to argue your point. And your lack of understanding of how people think -- especially religious peop= le -- is what prevents you from understanding how Obama can win the Presidency, b= ut the African-Americans and Hispanics who voted for them voted against the liberal social agenda. I'm trying to explain it to you, and all you have to say is that their reasons, which they consider to be central to their belief syste= m, is merely a "moot point." It's condescending to them, and won't win any arguments with them. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: amy king To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 11:20:44 AM Subject: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] Troy, The question of being gay as "natural" or a "choice" is beyond moot. Since the constitution provides everyone equal rights - ahem = - I should be allowed to marry whomever I choose, so long as they consent and choose me as well. To devolve into such debate over whether the selection = of one's spouse is a choice, a coercion, a divine intervention, a prophetic un= ion, or what-have-you is to distract from the purposes & securities provided by the constitution. That we *must* be separated by gender was not something our forefathers predicted would be problematic -- any more than when they wrote that some people weren't exactly human and could be owned as chattel. =20 But in an age when it is beginning to be acknowledged that gender lines are= , at best, blurred and complex, sexes are multiple (despite "corrective" measures - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/magazine/24intersexkids.html & http://www.jenellerose.com/htmlpostings/intersex_babies_controversy.htm), a= nd, like it or not, gender is fluid, to create an amendment defining marriage a= s between a "man" and a "woman" is institutionalized bias.=20 Devolving into the archaic debate of just what penis and vagina should be allowed a legally-sanctioned U.S. Gov't issued contract is silly and a distracting fallacy. Two people should be granted the same rights as any o= ther two people as written in the constitution. This debate heralds back to the not-so-old one of whether it was "right" that blacks and whites be allowed the same rights under the law, as if the races were two different species (see anti-miscegenation laws). It wasn't so long ago that people thought it "unnatural" to see two separate skin tones loving one another. = Some still think it "unnatural." The debate of nature vs nurture is itself a perversion. =20 An aside: I think the passing of Prop 8 speaks moreover to the hope that b= y denying the GLBT community the right to marry will somehow abolish the very existence of that community -- at least, that's my pessimistic read on the whole debacle. Gays/lesbians are the latest "Other" just as immigrants remain "Alien" on the soil of a people obsessed with "getting and keeping theirs." =20 Mark,=20 Separations of symbols vs. legalities not withstanding, civil unions and domestic partnerships do NOT provide the same legal benefits that marriages= do. It's all in the poetic wording, no? "Separate but equal" has historically betrayed everyone's "good" intentions. If "civil unions" were to be federally-mandated, then perhaps that would cover the legal protections that marriages do, but until then: What are some of the limitations of civil unions? =20 Civil unions are different from marriage, and that difference has wide-ranging implications that make the two institutions unequal. Here is a quick look at some of the most significant differences:=20 =20 -Portability: =20 Marriages are respected state to state for all purposes, but questions remain about how civil unions will be treated in other states.=20 GLAD believes there are strong arguments that civil unions deserve respect across the country just like marriages. But the two appellate courts that have addressed the issue (in Connecticut and Georgia) have disrespected them based on the fact that their states do not grant civi= l unions themselves. =20 -Ending a Civil Union: =20 If you are married, you can get divorced in any state in which you are = a resident. But if states continue to disrespect civil unions, there is no way to end the relationship other than by establishing residency in Vermont and filing for divorce there. This has already created problems for some couples who now have no way to terminate their legal commitment. =20 -Federal Benefits: =20 According to a 1997 GAO report, civil marriage brings with it at least 1,049 legal protections and responsibilities from the federal government, including the right to take leave from work to care for a family member, the right to sponsor a spouse for immigration purposes, and Social Security survivor benefits that can make a difference betwee= n old age in poverty and old age in security. Civil unions bring none of these critical legal protections. =20 -Taxes & Public Benefits for the Family: =20 Because the federal government does not respect civil unions, a couple with a civil union will be in a kind of limbo with regard to governmental functions performed by both state and federal governments, such as taxation, pension protections, provision of insurance for families, and means-tested programs like Medicaid. Even when states try to provide legal protections, they may be foreclosed from doing so in joint federal/state programs. =20 -Filling out forms: =20 Every day, we fill out forms that ask us whether we are married or single. People joined in a civil union don't fit into either category. People with civil unions should be able to identify themselves as a single family unit, but misrepresenting oneself on official documents can be considered fraud and carries potential serious criminal penalties.=20 =20 -Separate & Unequal -- Second-Class Status: =20 Even if there were no substantive differences in the way the law treate= d marriages and civil unions, the fact that a civil union remains a separate status just for gay people represents real and powerful inequality. We've been down this road before in this country and should not kid ourselves that a separate institution just for gay people is a just solution here either. Our constitution requires legal equality for all. Including gay and lesbian couples within existing marriage laws is the fairest and simplest thing to do. =20 How real are these differences between marriage and civil unions, given that a federal law and some state laws discriminate against all marriages of same-sex couples? =20 Would any of this change immediately with marriage of same-sex couples? Probably not, because married same-sex couples will face other layers o= f discrimination against their marriages. Right now, a federal law denies recognition of same-sex unions conferred by any state for purposes of all federal programs and requirements and over 30 state laws do the same. Ending discrimination in marriage does not mean the end of all discrimination, but using the term "marriage" rather than "civil union" is an essential first step to opening the door and addressing whether continued governmental discrimination against civil marriages of gay an= d lesbian people makes sense.=20 =20 Marriage and civil unions remain different, both in practice and in principle.=20 =20 First, more than a dozen states have not taken a discriminatory positio= n against civil marriages of gay and lesbian couples. In those states, civilly married gay and lesbian couples should be able to live and travel freely and without fear that their relationship will be disrespected. =20 Second, even as to those states with discriminatory laws, legally married gay and lesbian couples from those states may well face some discrimination in some quarters, but their marriages will also be treated with legal respect in other arenas. Marriages are far more likely to be respected by others than newly minted "civil unions." =20 Using the term marriage also prompts a discussion about fairness. Allowing same sex couples to marry (rather than enter a separate status= ) will allow gay and lesbian people to talk with their neighbors, their local elected officials, and the Congress about whether discrimination against their marriages is fair. Where gay and lesbian people and their children are part of the social fabric, is it right to continue discriminating against them in civil marriage? The federal government and states that have taken discriminatory positions against marriages o= f gay and lesbian couples could rethink those policies and go back to respecting state laws about marriage, as they have done for hundreds of years. In the end, we will not be able to have this discussion until gay and lesbian folks have what everyone else has: civil marriage. =20 http://www.yffn.org/admin/spi/marriagevsunion.html http://lesbianlife.about.com/cs/wedding/a/unionvmarriage.htm Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 12:32:47 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Shankar, Ravi (English)" Subject: Drunken Boat Design Contest for Tenth Anniversary Issue Comments: To: e-pubs@yahoogroups.com, lit-events@yahoogroups.com, wom-po In-Reply-To: <7ee200e80810112111w332be511v6cb6038623c2f0d7@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable http://www.drunkenboat.com/db10/designcontest/ Drunken Boat Design Contest - $2500 for winning designer =20 Drunken Boat < www.drunkenboat.com >, an international online journal of th= e arts, celebrates its 10th anniversary in 2009! Part of our conceptual origi= n has been in exhibiting works of art that use the medium of the Web as constitutive of meaning; with this in mind we are soliciting proposals for the design of a special 10th issue dedicated to arts and literature online. The winning designer receives a $2500 honorarium in return for designing th= e home page of a publication that attracts nearly half a million unique visitors per year. =20 ENTRY PROCESS=20 To submit a design proposal, follow these steps: 1) Email designcontest@drunkenboat.com with your design proposal (as per below).=20 2) Pay the $25 Entry Fee online or by mail. Make sure your payment is attached to your entry. 3) Include complete contact information on all submitted materials. Note: No materials will be returned (unless prior arrangement has been reached).=20 Please submit disposable materials wherever possible. =20 ENTRY FORMAT=20 Send your design proposal in one of the following formats: 1) a link to a website 2) one or more JPG, GIF or PNG files 3) one or more PDF files 4) a SWF file (Adobe Flash) =20 ENTRY FEE=20 Pay the $25 Entry Fee online through Paypal < www.drunkenboat.com/db9/donate.html >, or by personal or organizational check. All payments sent by regular mail must include the designer=B9s current email address and contact information. =20 MAILING ADDRESS=20 Drunken Boat=20 119 Main St.=20 Chester, CT 06412=20 USA=20 =20 PERMISSION=20 Contestants grant Drunken Boat permission to display a designer=B9s name, company name, client name and/or relevant design work at www.drunkenboat.com. =20 COPYRIGHT NOTICE=20 Drunken Boat assumes all submitted artwork is the property of the designer or design firm submitting the work. Drunken Boat will not be liable for any copyright infringement on the part of the contestant. All rights to the wor= k will revert to the designer upon publication. =20 ETHICAL GUIDELINES=20 Drunken Boat reserves the right to revoke the award from any individual or company, whose artwork does not fall within the ethical guidelines set fort= h by the magazine, whether before, during or after the judging is complete. Fees are non-refundable once the entry has been submitted for any reason. =20 TERMS OF DELIVERY=20 The winner will receive a $2500 honorarium, payable upon launch date of the 10th anniversary issue. The winner will be responsible for all aspects of the home page design, including its interface with all other sections of th= e issue (particularly the 10 mini-sites). The winner must also be willing to work with other individuals, as needed, to enable completion of the issue i= n time for a Winter 2008/2009 launch. =20 DEADLINE December 01 2008=20 =20 RULES=20 The Drunken Boat Design Contest is open to designers from any discipline, from anywhere in the world, particularly individuals attuned to the potential dynamicity of designing work online. We at Drunken Boat are open to any number of aesthetic models that might encompass this issue=B9s contents. Best of all would be an interactive / dynamic component that actively invites reader participation. The only parameters of the contest are that all of the home page designs must be structured to encompass a group of 10 mini-sites designed by Drunken Boat Web Editor / Site Designer Shawn M. McKinney. A sample of the visual design of the 10 mini-sites may b= e found here: www.drunkenboat.com/db10/designcontest. =20 All entries will be considered potential home pages; some finalists may ultimately provide alternate home page designs. =20 NOTES=20 We don=B9t expect you to submit an entire Web site. We do expect you to provide us with a clear sense of the graphic =B3look and feel=B2 of a home page= , as well as a proposed system of navigation, for Drunken Boat, Issue No. 10. In addition, all proposed design elements must be aesthetically compatible with the 10 mini-sites mentioned previously. Although your email confirmation and digital artwork will be sufficient for our judges to asses= s your entry properly, contestants may physically mail design samples to allo= w for a more in-depth evaluation process. In any event, no materials will be returned (unless prior arrangement has been reached). Please submit disposable materials wherever possible. =20 We urge you to explore the archives of www.drunkenboat.com. Take a look at some of the creative work we have published in the past, while you consider the design sensibility that has shaped previous issues. Also, you might wan= t to read the =B3designer=B9s note=B2 (essay) found in the Oulipo section of Drunke= n Boat, Issue No. 8. Locate it as follows: www.drunkenboat.com/db8 > oulipo > shawn m. mckinney > =B3Oulipo Redux: Extensible, Exegetic, Ex Post Facto.=B2 =20 A spirit of collaboration is essential to the success of this contest and this special issue of Drunken Boat. The winning designer will be expected t= o work closely with a staff of designers and editors to complete the design o= f Issue No. 10. Mavericks need not apply. =20 If all we have at our disposal is language to articulate the world, its precision and meaning, in abstract form, how do we reconcile the stance tha= t dialogue is nothing more than the congress of arbitrary conceits? =8BRavi Shankar, =B3Editor=B9s Statement,=B2 Drunken Boat, Issue No. 9 =20 All entries must be received by midnight. No late entries will be considered.=20 =20 poster design < shawn m. mckinney > www.typonica.com ***************=20 Ravi Shankar=20 Ed., http://www.drunkenboat.com Poet-in-Residence=20 Associate Professor CCSU - English Dept. 860-832-2766=20 shankarr@ccsu.edu=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 10:51:23 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: carol dorf Subject: Re: on Walcott and Obama In-Reply-To: <116DC69D-7602-4F31-946A-1BCE7F989BCF@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I think young people have an easier time living in a world without such essentialist ideas of racial identity. A biracial cousin of my husband's (he's white) used to say that she was two-tone in high school. When I was giving the PSATs to a group of 10th graders in the bay area, a number of kids said "I'm mixed, what do I put," when forced to choose between African-American and White. While the school I teach at is at times very racially divided, at other times the boundaries between categories seem fluid. Carol On 11/9/08, Tisa Bryant wrote: > Thank you, Susan, for stating the obvious. > Further, Obama is literally African American. No hyphen, in terms of > immediate genealogy. > Derek Walcott is absolutely of the Americas, and the African diaspora, > just as my Barbadian family is. Pause and consider all the West > Indian folks folded up into the "African-American" category in this > country. > The rigidity of the discussion of lineage, heritage, genealogy, here, > prior to your message, Susan, is surprisingly limited, essentialist, > and despairing, recalling all the nonsense about whether Obama is > "black enough." > What stuns me (though it shouldn't) is the insistence on defining > African-American identity in such rigid terms while maintaining > whiteness as an absolutely nebulous necessity that's separate from > everything and everyone else, hovering above and shadowing genealogy, > culpability, and history, particularly the history of the process that > made Africans American in the first place. It's the same process that > made various Europeans American, but, if "visibly lucky," hid the > "taint" of the process from the skin, but not from the soul. I'd like > to think that all the white people who voted for Obama either already > understand and accept the burden of history that has always and > rightfully belonged to them and can now either publicly stop faking > the funk, or are now ready to take some steps towards being real about > privilege, race, racism. I'd like to think that all the white people > who voted for Obama did so to (maybe only symbolically) own up to all > the not-surprisingly race-based disparities in our system which was > built on slavery and disparity, accept that many people, white people, > rigorously assimilated colored people, benefit from this system > whether they like it or not, whether they're sorry or not. Once these > admissions can be voiced and dealt with instead of brainily wormed > around, guiltily whined about, or totally shirked as a responsibility, > once the burden of understanding and disassembling a woefully race- > obsessed culture is shifted to all shoulders (er, like the burden of > these racialized stereotypes of who's more homophobic, or religiously > conservative), maybe once we have some real conversations about > whiteness instead of always harping on blackness, we can do some real > self-reflexive work towards social change, and clearly, Obama won't be > able to make this happen alone, even if he serves as many terms as > FDR. This quibbling about Walcott's poem, sadly, or the unexamined > perpetuation of stereotypes and placement of burden re: Prop 8, says > something else about that readiness for even the conversation, never > mind the work and the sacrifice, but, I hope, only says something > about a few. > > TLB > ________________________________________________________ > I believe that all shapes, all surfaces and lines and shading, all > aspects of design evoke emotions by associations=97with traditional > shapes of our own culture, with the proportions, surfaces of the human > body, with shapes and movements in nature...[It is] in our=97the > designers'=97power to talk to and play with the emotional responses of > our audiences, just as musicians do.=09 > =09=09=09Eva Zeisel, 2000 > > On Nov 9, 2008, at 00:36 AM, Susan Webster Schultz wrote: > >> If Obama is not African American in the traditional sense, neither >> is Walcott. >> But read Walcott's long poem about spending time in Little Rock, >> Arkansas, and >> read Obama's memoir about growing up in Hawai`i and then moving to >> South >> Side, Chicago. It's not just where they come from, it's how others >> treated them that >> matters. Both men know their (various) genealogies and can deploy >> them ably. >> Obama's victory speech subsumed King's rhetoric into a larger >> field. Yes, he's >> an American politician; no he's not going change America utterly. >> But what >> a sea-change it still is! And how wonderful to see the Bush years >> repudiated, finally. >> >> Susan >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 18:23:55 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Corretta Scott King said... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed One small corrective. By the primaries every Democrat was saying we should get out of Iraq. Obama's courage consisted of saying it earlier, when he had no vote in the matter and was running for office with an antiwar costituency. At 01:05 PM 11/9/2008, you wrote: >Troy, that was a thoughtful response, and thank you for thinking about it. >To be honest I'm not interested in marriage myself, and have many concerns >about the institution of marriage for anyone wanting it. However, it's >still none of my business if someone wants it, I'm just saying. > >And yes, you're right about the views many Americans, especially religious >Americans of any color have about this idea of homosexuality being a >"choice." > >Cultures with fundamentals of dualistic foundations like monotheism trade >"choice" against the formation of belief that two is the best number to >shoot from: God and Satan, Male and Female, Black and White, etc. America >can't even seem to support values outside of a Democrat and Republican party >system. Christianity in particular in American has reductive qualities >which marginalize with a world-view from proper biblical points of >reference. > >American colonists were HORRIFIED by the openly bisexual, homosexual, >transsexual Native Americans of this early pagan continent. There are >Native American nations who had multiple genders, which confused and FREAKED >many of the early white Americans. Well, not so much the Scotts and Irish >who settled in Appalachia maybe, but certainly the Virginians and the >Puritans, even the Quakers. > >Am I saying we're too entrenched to get out of it? No, I mean look at many >European countries who are also steeped in Christianity, they've become more >tolerant, but they also forced the issue of progress with governmental >intervention and laws. I say this because I'm under the impression that the >Libertarian Party is about less governmental intervention. But I admit I >know little about that party, but that's the gist I've gotten from them. > >I'm actually for MORE regulation of all kinds, especially when it comes to >civil rights. I'm not believing for a minute that it will make The >Haters like queers more, but it will protect queers who want to be >productive, contributing citizens if they so choose. > >Back in the early 90s I heard Bill Clinton give a speech in DC when he was >first running for president, it was at some gay pride event, or march, or >something. He said, and I remember him clearly saying this, that Yes we >should be allowed to be married, have the same rights, etc. He instead gave >us the "right" of "Don't Ask Don't Tell" which was tantamount to saying, >"No, you're not equal, unless you're a killing machine." > >But I remember how we all CHEERED and ROARED with excitement when Clinton >addressed us in DC. And weeks after he and Gore won The White House I took >a lesbian friend of mine to see KD Lang for her birthday, it was Lang's >"Ingenue Tour" I believe. But Lang ANNOUNCED from the stage these very same >things Clinton promised, and we all CHEERED and ROARED with excitement! And >I still remember her saying through a cloud of bubbles (she had a giant >bubble-making machine on stage like Lawrence Welk), "I'm so glad Bill's in >office!" We all CHEERED and ROARED again. We were literally ecstatic! >Little did we know the real Bill Clinton at that time. We were such suckers >for his promises at a time when we were SO EXHAUSTED from Reagan/Bush, and >hemorrhaging friends and the art world to AIDS. It blew our minds that he >would even speak to us. But we were SO duped! He got our votes and >promptly dumped us. WORSE than dumping us, MUCH WORSE, that asshole signed >the Defense of Marriage Act. Wow! I will always, ALWAYS hate Bill Clinton >for that signing! > >Bill Clinton's legacy of lies is why I'm skeptical of Obama. BUT, I do >believe Obama is a better human being than Bill Clinton ever was, even on >Clinton's best days. I want Obama to be the man of conscience he appears to >be. And I hope he is. But still, saying queers should be allowed to visit >their dying partner in the hospital is hardly a step up from what Clinton >gave us. Both Biden and Obama used this remark about hospital visitation, >and it made me angry. But AT LEAST THEY DIDN'T lie. I mean, neither man >promised us things like Clinton, so, I am grateful for that. I'd rather be >told up front what to expect, which they gave. > >Getting our greedy, bloodstained American hands out of Iraq was most >important to me when voting. Everyone who voted for Obama had their >reasons. Everyone FELT GOOD voting for Obama for their own reasons, and >mine was his steadfast claim that Iraq was wrong, was always wrong, and we >should get out. I don't care about his gender or the color of his skin, his >courage to stand up against the American invasion and occupation of Iraq is >what sent me to vote. And I don't use the word "courage" lightly. It takes >REAL courage to tell a nation of people that they fucked up. But he did it, >and we made him president, so that alone makes me hopeful. > >CAConrad >*HOMOPHOBIA and a Lexicon of Violence: ** >http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html* > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 18:33:21 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Angela Vasquez-Giroux Subject: Re: Forty Acres In-Reply-To: <172169.95084.qm@web90503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline To troy's comment: just b/c Obama wasn't a descendant of slaves doesn't mean he was ever exempted from racism, you know? or discrimination. when someone decides a black man isn't "trustworthy" (as I have heard many many say of Obama) i don't think they're taking into account anything other than color. the color has become the symbol for the feeling, institutional and insidious as it is. that's why, i think, walcott can get away with it. the irony is there, you're right. what walcott is marking/celebrating is the change in symbol--what some people are hoping will be a wholesale symbolic change. good thread. On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Cara Benson wrote: > Do you happen to know how the "average" contribution was calculated? Is > that mean or median? > > Even as an Obama supporter, I was always curious about that. > > > > > > Sous Rature > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Paul Nelson > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 11:41:57 PM > Subject: Re: Forty Acres > > In September, the average contribution to Obama was $83. Hardly > Steve, > > In September, the average contribution to Obama was $83. Hardly the work = of > special interests. Even Republicans were saying this is how campaigns sho= uld > be financed. In fact, corporations should NEVER be allowed to finance > campaigns. Of course, without the interpretation of County of Santa Clara > vs. Southern Pacific making corporations people, this would not be an iss= ue. > > While we're at it, why not make political ads illegal on TV or radio? Lik= e > cigarettes? (Political ads are more toxic.) > > Paul > > Paul E. Nelson > > Global Voices Radio > SPLAB! > American Sentences > Organic Poetry > Poetry Postcard Blog > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: steve russell > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 12:34:43 PM > Subject: Re: Forty Acres > > Prison: both Wole Soyinka and Mandella payed their dues. Obama's gifts ar= e > immense. & while i'm cynical of his new age sound bites, "hope", "change"= , > whatever, what more can one do but give the guys integrity the benefit of= a > doubt? Really, when Obama spoke of change, he still needed an enormous su= m > of cash to play the political game. HOW does one CHANGE all of that??? > > --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > From: Barry Schwabsky > Subject: Re: Forty Acres > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 11:57 AM > > And "son of an African chief" evokes Nelson Mandela, no? Not a bad > thing, I hope... > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Mairead Byrne > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, 8 November, 2008 3:10:52 PM > Subject: Re: Forty Acres > > Gabrielle, to my ears even your terms "son of an african chief, went to > ruling class school in hawaii" rock the White House. > Spinning in the huge drum of hope-- > Mairead > > >>> welford@HAWAII.EDU 11/08/08 12:34 AM >>> > i have been thinking about that quite a bit, yes. it's not his genealogy > at all. son of an african chief, went to ruling class school in hawaii..= . > all adds to the dampness of my celebration. small bits of hope keep > poking me in the ribs but not very hard. g > > Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. > _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous > Cultures_ > http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317 > _Dora_ > http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378 > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 > > On Fri, 7 Nov 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > > > Not to be a wet blanket, but does anyone notice the irony in the fact > that > Obama is not a descendent of the people Walcott is talking about in this > poem? > Some lovely ideas in the images, though. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Daniel Godston > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 3:25:16 PM > Subject: Forty Acres > > O > Forty Acres: a poem for Barack Obama from Nobel winner Derek Walcott > > Out of the turmoil emerges one emblem, an engraving =97 > a young Negro at dawn in straw hat and overalls, > an emblem of impossible prophecy, a crowd > dividing like the furrow which a mule has ploughed, > parting for their president: a field of snow-flecked cotton > forty acres wide, of crows with predictable omens > that the young ploughman ignores for his unforgotten > cotton-haired ancestors, while lined on one branch, is a tense > court of bespectacled owls and, on the field's receding rim =97 > a gesticulating scarecrow stamping with rage at him. > The small plough continues on this lined page > beyond the moaning ground, the lynching tree, the tornado's > black vengeance, > and the young ploughman feels the change in his veins, > heart, muscles, tendons, > till the land lies open like a flag as dawn's sure > light streaks the field and furrows wait for the sower > > From The New York Times Online > November 5, 2008 > > The West Indies poet Derek Walcott, winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize for > Literature, writes exclusively for The Times to mark the election of Bara= ck > Obama as President > > > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/= article5088429.ece > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:02:31 +1300 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Dear David, Thanks for your reply. I reckon that you are , in so many words (as = the expression goes) agreeing with me on the matter I raised, i.e. that giv= en the varieties And quantity of long canonised 'unoriginal' texts, art wo= rks etc, to apply the term 'appropriation' to them all is reductive, and co= unter-productive. I can't respond to all you say ( you raise so many interesting examp= les and issues) nor can I agree with it all. Your 19th century US examples-= -Poe, especially--are a propos; it has something to do with the belatedness= of US literary culture, so that Romantic and Pre-romantic ideas are contem= porary, whereas is Europe they are in sequence. Your earlier comments about= travel lit and plagiarism apply to Meville; it was the true and false accu= sations about Typee that drove Melville to fiction. Typee is srtill read by= many as Melville's forst novel--he never thought of it is as such. What I wanted to know was: in what ways do these antecedent practic= es assist in discriminating between Recents forms of appropriation. I believe what we are discussing is somethi= ng that has been--as you say-- going on along timem and something that we d= o differently in our own time, and as usual we are short of terms for the l= ater because of necessity we do not as yet understand it as conventional pr= actice. Convention is a term you don't use, and yet it is deeply appropriat= e to our discussion. Cheers, Wystan -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Beh= alf Of David Chirot Sent: Tuesday, 4 November 2008 8:41 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? Dear Wystan: One of the interesting ways to think of appropriation through time is that = it may often function not as a method of "creating of the previous/with the= previous" something "new," but, instead as a participating in many actions= which involve extension, reframing and as well, not making "fake" or "arti= ficial" but paradoxically a kind of "return to realism." For example: Duchamp takes an object and puts it in an art gallery and cal= ls it a "ready Made." (Art off the rack," so to speak, with the "label" being simply that the artist who chose the object said that is "art." At the same time, to bring art "down from the high horse of abstraction," and "return to the reality at hand," the object itself is "a real object, s= traight from the hardware store." A "real object" becomes "an art object" simply by the moving of it from one= environment (hardware store) to another (art gallery). Yet the object thu= s "transformed" remains the same "real object" and hence it becomes not ar= t itself as abstract on the canvas or in a three-D object, or in a text, bu= t an "abstract transaction" in the mind: trans---action being the key word= , as both a "transaction" in a commercial terms, and an action "beyond" or = "through and out," a transit. The effect of the transaction (hopefully) is to be that it sets in action t= he realization that art happens in the mind, not only in the object, text, = screen, canvas. Duchamp said he wanted to make art which contradicted the French idiomatic = phrase "Bete comme un peintre." (Stupid like a painter--the stereotype of = the painter of genius who is one in painting and/or sculpture, but when it = comes to articulating any thoughts, "is at loss for words." and so appears = to be "stupid like a painter." In arts of appropriation, one is making use of a preexisting object, text, = fragment, and so the work is anchored in a "reality," a "documentary" aspect, which is to be played off of, or make a commentary on, the "fiction= al" and "artificial" and if such is the case, "faked" aspects of the work. In this way, the work can question the nature of the construction o= f "reality" as already being being "made" of such a process in itself. In collage art, the artist is simply doing what is already being done aroun= d them--and commenting on it through re-editing, re-juxtaposing, transports= elements from one realm to another there to mingle with elements taken fro= m others--Schwitter's method in his collages and Merzbau--Rauschenberg and = his "Combines" and transfer works, etc. Warhol's Factory production of ser= ial versions of the same image, replicas of Campbell's Soup Cans, and the w= hole Pop Art basis in recycling and reproducing "pop" imagery--treats the i= mage world, already reproductions, mass productions, as in itself a reality= , and so create the Pop reality which simply recycles itself as an endless = system of production. These works in a sense are at once "artificial" and "real" as the reality they are reproducing is an artificial one, in treating it as= real, it becomes again artificial (art) or--in treating it as already arti= ficial (art) and reproducing it, taking elements fro it, it makes of a popu= lar "artificiality" and "art artificiality" by the shifting of the frames f= rom the comic book store or super market to the art gallery. With writing, for thousands of years most likely, persons have gazed at som= e landscape, city scene or sudden movement of the wind in tress and had a l= ine of poetry come to their mind and/or lips as having "presented this to m= e previously." That is--this scene makes me think of a line of Pindar." I= n this way whole landscapes becomes the sites of tourism for those aficiona= dos who want to see the "real Wuthering Heights," the places where Ulysses = takes place," the New York of Edith Wharton, or the Paris of Baudelaire. T= he description and associations in writing in a sense create the place from= which they are seen as being created into a place which others "want to go= and see in all its reality," though that reality may have existed quite so= me time ago or perhaps just six months ago. "The scene of the crime," as i= t were, to be gawked at and commented on further, with fotos taken and souv= enirs purchased. (Poe's "Morning on the Wissihcon" describes a proto-version this kind of li= terary Disney 'world"--) A writer like Herodotus is a forerunner of al these things, in that his His= tories include everything--stories told that are fabulous, others that are = "documented," speculations, wild eyed tales of wonders, all manner of thing= s real, imaginary, fictional, hoaxed, are run togetehr as being simply what= the traveling historian has collected. In this method of appropriation wh= at is being accomplished "naturally" by Herodotus is today done as an attem= pt to "blur," "transgress" boundaries and dividing lines between categories= , classifications, into such separate things as "fables," "Facts," and "hoaxes." The desire of many "post modern" projects and approaches is, as Olson had propounded fifty years ago and more, found actually in the= pre-Aristotlean world of a writer like Herodotus, when no such classificat= ory systems are being applied. What is written of today as "transgressions= ," was all in a day's life and work for a traveling historian like Herodotu= s or those "travel writers" of the early periods of Western colonialist exp= ansions and explorations. I keep bringing him up, but Poe is the first American writer to consistentl= y use methods, let alone invent quite a number of his own, for creating hyb= rids of facts, fictions, fakes, hoaxes, "newspaper items," and "detective s= tories," one of which, "The Mystery of Marie Roget," was written along side= the actual tabloid sensation mystery of the murder and disappearance of th= e body of Mary Rogers, "The Cigar Store Girl." Via his fictional ratiocina= ting "Dupin, Poe wanted to demonstrate that this method would more effectiv= ely, efficiently and correctly solve the crime than the tabloid accounts of= the bumbling methods of the then rather haphazard assemblage of beings and= techniques that was the new York Police force. (Conan Doyle with his Sherlock Holmes makes use of this inspiration of Poe'= s in Sherlock Holmes' always using the London Times as vast treasure trove = of textual evidences and clues.) One of Poe's great dreams is to find the area of suspension between waking = and dreaming, living and death--and in this manner be at the blurring of al= l boundaries--an area i which reality and imagination, fictions and fakes, = all are equally vivid and as it were living-dead. Having observed the deat= h of his mother, his brother and his young wife, Poe's desire to as much as= possible suspend the last instants of consciousness before its extinction = is a "rational"desire and need for something that others deem "irrational." Thus the work of Poe becomes ever more of a series of depictions in which t= he ratiocination of the writing "detective" and "mathematician" try to hold= at bay the incoming flood tides of the Others--the living dead, the ghosts= , the hearts beating through floorboards, the journey of Arthur Gordon Pym = through a realm all in Black--Black people, birds, soil, letterings carved = into black rock--and then white--the arrival finally at the edges of the ot= her side of a printed page from the blackness of letters to its white space= s--a figure of white that arises out of the whiteness of mists and is as wh= ite as the whiteness of snow. In effect--a "white out"--the termination of= writing as black notations on white pages and the the confrontation of a "= white on white" aspect at the edges of what is NOT an erasure--as in Malevi= ch's "White Square on a White Square" which had been preceded by the "Black= Square a Black Square." In this narrative of Pym's, it is also noted that perhaps the reader wil no= t notice at which point the narrative written by Pym stops and that written= by the person who is the editor of the published work begins. The book is= supplied with an Appendix which in turn throws doubts on who actually did = write the text, and if the editor is telling the truth, or if there is some= other aspect involved, and Pym himself has been perhaps the narrator all a= long. The making ambiguous and mysterious of a fictional account of journey that = is fantastic yet described in the most precise "ship shape" manner and deta= ils, is to further emphasize the idea that there can always be as it were "= updates" on the status of a text and its "authorship." That is, Poe is dem= onstrating that even one's own texts can experience such disputes, as to wh= at Poe really wrote, what was written by someone else whom he plagiarized o= r "borrowed generously from." In effect, the Appendix is implying--there c= an continually be "news flash" updates on the status and authorship of this= text, and basically any other, as al texts participate in this madcap trav= ersal of exchanges and exchange (stock exchange also). Again, this method gives Poe the chance to "put off" the idea of their bein= g "an ending"--in effect the "true story" has not yet been told, and so in = the meantime one will be continually finding "news flashes' which bring one= the latest updates on the Poe-Pym voyages and authorships. In Pym, the authors--both of them or more--are in a sense playing a game of= jack in the box with what are the various scenes of internment in the book= --the whole tale finds Pym being confined in terribly close quarters, or in= a situation of captivity or near extinction. In fact, we do not know as = the book begins whether or not Pym actually survived at al to tel this tale= , as Mr Poe claims that he at some point is the author who takes up the pen= from the vanished Pym in order that his tale "might live on" so to speak. When Pym shows up in the Appendix, live after, --this suddenly recasts the = Narrative as a book which is actually not the book of the authors, either o= ne--but one which is actually not yet written, but exists as it does "so fa= r" in this "half man half horse" state of having the two seamless authors--= one of them presumed dead and replaced part way through by a "ghost writer"= who has to face the return of the ghost as not a ghost once the text has b= een "completed," and now lies on the floor, a ball of a "Yarn" (story) bein= g madly unwoven by one of Poe's own "Imps of the Perverse." Mark Twain is another form of writer in which appropriation is used on a va= st scale, though in a way it may not at first seem so to be. His books lik= e Roughing It and Life on the Mississippi, for example, are vast Herodotus = style compendiums of anecdote, facts, fictions, outright lies that he relis= hes re-telling, pure unadulterated tall stories, wild characters who actual= ly are real, and others who are characters "larger than life" because in fa= ct they do not exist at all except as towering feats of story telling. In Twain's world, the good telling of lie is a grandiose and magnificent th= ing to behold--a great tall story, a superb "yarn," the getting togetehr of= literary and journalist friends "to swap a few lies," being the epitome of= a "good time." These "lies" are contrasted to the bigger lies which Twain= continually attacks as the lies which society uses in order to create its = structures of distinctions, borders and boundary lines between peoples and = their social status, their possibilities in life, what their dreams are all= owed to consist of. Magnificent River Boats sail past cities with names like Memphis, Cairo, St= Louis, Nouvelle Orleans--extravagant architectures of mansions, beautifull= y tended gardens, al the bric-a-brac of an already "post modern style" whic= h mixes the native materials in the making of imitations of buildings the w= onders have never seen except in illustrations and associate with being of = an "Ancient Dynasty" or a Roman Republic, or Greece, England, France. And = in this world are the forerunners of Faulkner's characters running amok in = feuds and violence, ignorance and dissolution. And al of it built on slave= ry and exploitation, in order to build a mansion that can be seen from the = River Boats to make one think one is living in a civilization "elsewhere," = as though in another time completely. Life on the Mississippi is actually a great anarkeyology of appropriation, = in every aspect of the furniture, the houses' designs, the styles adopted a= nd created in clothing, the types of books which are in the libraries, ever= y detail is seen as an appropriation from elsewhere, a vast fantasy world t= rying to imitate things that it does not comprehend nor want to other than = what it symbolizes. And even in the midst of al the grandeur and posing, t= here is the vision of the incipient, swift rush of decay, decomposition, th= e first signs of the ghosts that will soon enough inhabit this fantasy worl= d as it slides into the past, as gone as as were the previous bends in the = ever changing course of the river. All one has to do is study the Twain book and then move on the tomes of ima= ges made through decades of this same world by Clarence john Laughlin--hims= elf the owner of one of the best private libraries in America, an immense e= ccentric assemblage of heaps and crates and shelves put togetehr by himself= --a great admirer of Baudelaire and French poetry and prose--and there is t= he after effects" world of Twain's--ghostly, in ruins, depopulated, haunted= and still the repository for this huge collection of appropriated styles a= nd structures in their journey through time's decomposing. What Luaghlin wr= ites of in his notes accompanying his works, is of a world which in reality= is already a Surreality--the fotos in which he constructs strange dreamlik= e scenes among the already strange "real scenes" are simply the introduction of figures and tableaux to stages that are alre= ady crying out for actors. since they already inhabit a "living dream," a living-death, the introduction of the "faked" dream scenes seems "perfect= ly natural." (I used a transfer of a Laughlin fotoa door in 1950's Milwaukee as part of = a collage piece for the cover of an issue of Kaurab Poetry Journal--and "Af= ter effect" of the ghostliness in Laughlin's fotos become more ghostly via = its transposition as a transfer of a xeroxed copy of the copy of the photo = included in a book of his work.) If turning to thes particular models as examples of appropriation at work s= eems "old fashioned," don't be fooled, their controversial nature rages on.= I picked up by chance the other day a new updated edition of Norman Finke= lstein's Beyond Hutzpah--and opened as though by magic to a section which r= eproduces pages from Twain's book on his travels to the Middle East and Eur= ope. The controversy that rages in these pages detailing the reproduced pa= ges of Twain's MS is that Finkelstein demonstrates how passages from twin h= ave been edited, slightly altered, taken a bit out of context, and used as = evidence by Alan Dershowitz, who is also plagiarizing from a discredited te= xt which he pretends that he is not plagiarizing from, of some passage in T= wain regrading the "non-existence" of Palestinian peoples in certain areas = of contemporary Israel-Palestine. Finkelstein is an excellent example of a = researcher who goes through the long series of twists and turns of a quotat= ion, a footnote, single word, in order to arrive at an understanding not on= ly of what "originally or actually happened," but also, what has happened a= long the way, in the uses of a quotation or appropriated text. Since his a= rgument is with a famous Harvard Law School member and lawyer, Finkelstein = relishes the opportunity to pick apart the arguments involved, the citation= s and texts. On the one hand, the famous lawyer is shown to be plagiarizing from a discr= edited text a severely altered mis- or dis-quotation from Twain, and on the= other, is Finkelstein's excavations of the layers of the text's palimpsest= s, alterations, transpositions, and is being turned into a "fact" in order to "prove" that a contemporary situation is based on "solid eviden= ce." What is surprising from the point of view of literary--and legal-- appropri= ation is that a lawyer would use the uncited source of a discredited work i= n which a quotation is found from a famous author, which can easily be chec= ked. What has happened is that a faked version of a documentary account by = a fiction writer is taken as being a "reality" that existed in the past whi= ch proves the validity of the present reality. By demonstrating the faked = and thus fictionalized use of the documentary account to prove "reality," F= inkelstein undercuts the present "reality" by the restoration of the origin= al text's actual order of words and phrases and in their correct contexts. The Twain who journeys from the Cairos and Memphises of the USA to those of= the "Ancient World," having detailed the appropriations of the New World i= n al their faked glories, and hungry to see the "originals," becomes in tur= n appropriated as a faked "glory" text himself, who is then "restored" to h= is original state in his own words by a commentator in an argument over the= borders and existences of peoples both in the past and in the present whic= h uses the past to justify itself. In this example alone, one find some of the aspects in which appropriated t= exts become part of arguments over literally appropriated lands, as well as= depictions of appropriated city names and styles of architecture and manne= rs and reading materials which wind up being part of the future historical = reality of the ancient places that are both used as models and their actu= alities as sites visited as a tourist by the famous author of a previous century. The shuttling back and forth through versions of the text is accompanied by a shuttling back in forth in time as well as a shuttling bac= k and forth between versions of land boundaries in the present based on acc= ounts from the past found in the text and altered only to be restored. The text itself becomes an extention of a "space of contested possession" not only as a text, but also in the world and in a conflict between the use= s of the past to justify the present. Via uncited citation, a hoaxed appropriation of a text enters into an inten= se argument over geography and history It is this aspect of appropriation o= f texts as actual documents in appropriations of land and history that prov= ides the kind of destabilizing as well as destabilizing "after effects" whi= ch make more complex the senses of and uses of "literary appropriation." = As with Travel Literature, texts become the genesis for immense debates ove= r the actual legitimacy of ownership of colonized lands and the rights of p= eoples who essay to inhabit these lands. Interestingly, this aspect of the "after effects" of appropriations of "lit= erary" and "travel" texts tends to be ignored in most considerations of app= ropriation of texts,, which tend to regard the literary appropriation as be= ing limited to that one area, and so the more "formal" qualities of an appr= opriation mechanism at work may be examined rather than potentialities in o= ther areas such as geography, history, the military, legal arguments, etc. In effect, to limit the awareness of the effects and "After effects" of tex= ts in and as appropriation, has the peculiar and subtle effect of a removal= from consideration of the abilities of texts to have these effects and Aft= er effects. That is, one develops a sense of the use of language which has= no "consequences," nor, in effect, any "complicities." This creates a sep= aration in language, in which on one hand "transgressions in language" are = urged, while those outside this realm are not. And if this is to be mainta= ined as a structure of belief and method, then the transgressions of texts = across the limits of the text's boundaries, becomes something to in effect = deny. In this way, the peculiar argument can be advanced that in changing = language via transgressing boundaries within it, one is changing the world,= and at the same time, that this use of language is not in any responsible = for what is happening around it, nor that the words that it uses are just a= s contaminated as the ones others use. This sense of a "purifying of the language of the tribe" as advanced by Mal= larme, is in many ways related to the ways in which propaganda functions, b= y limiting the range of effects which are allowed to be considered, so as t= o narrow the focus on an ever more centralized configuration and figure or = figures of power. In a sense, it points to an elite grouping of poets or wr= iters or artists who are as it were the guardians of this language, and so = are deemed the ones to determine the entry or not into the canons or "accep= table ones" of this or that artist or style, this or that version of approp= riation as opposed to an other. Rtaher than a rhizomatic, horizontal moveme= nt of the energies of appropriation, one finds instead a vertical axis alon= g which are stacked the categories of hegemonies and hierarchies. In a sense, this removes the role of the "dead author" and replaces it with= a kind of deity, a philopsher-poet-king-queen in a sense, of an aristocrac= y of the word. Yet as the example of the traveling through times and spaces and altered an= d restored versions of Twain's text shows, the appropriation of texts and o= bjects opens the arenas of action and makes for the dispersal across the un= expected of the ever uncertain findings and uses of words, and of the exist= ences of "authors," not at all as fixed identities, but as ever changing "s= ources," and "citations" which "crop up in the oddest of places." Texts and authors in this senses live lives of their own, which are outside= the conventions of what are thought to be the boundaries of texts and auth= orship. That this proliferation and dispersal of texts and authors among a= l manner of terrains and times may turn up in situations with which "litera= ture" so to speak would like to "disconnected from", this is because of the= "troubling" non-possession of words and texts which copy right and intelle= ctual property laws continually try to keep pace with. The borders which l= iterature would like to keep sealed for itself, or art, or any other form w= hich has created a language it regards as its own and its own only--these b= orders appropriation shows not to be as secure as one would have thought, a= nd so the desire for kind of "homeland security"system to control this "ter= rorism of words" against the very Terror in a sense which would dominate th= em. This is the sense in which the areas of language in literature begin t= o become a part of the operations of aspects of propaganda, in that the des= ire and need to control and maintain power supersedes the "love of language= " and begins to see that the means to in effect "torture" language are "jus= tified by the ends." Again, one finds "travel literature" as a form of the contesting of borders= , not only among settlers and already local populations in the New and Old = Worlds, but also the borders among texts as "faked," "documentary evidences= ," "depictions of fakes as being a reality," and the use of fakes to assert= a present reality based on an altered one via an altered text. The ebb and flow of the fake, the real, the fictional, the literary and the= actual landscapes involved in terms of borders and possessions--as well as= "battles for the very soul of the people and land"--al these are bound up = with the uses made of appropriation through a great many levels within just= one small dis-quoted quotation from a text by an author who himself depict= ed so much use of appropriation as a manner of constructing the fantasy lan= d reality he witnessed in its heights and the first signs of its rapid deca= y and decomposition. Even the current dramas of the American-Israeli interrelationships are depi= cted in this using of an American text as a "witness" to be argued with in = a "case" for or against a version of history that is contested. The travel aspect of uses of appropriation is one that begins to change in = the 19th century, with the ability to import ever greater amounts of goods = from every farther distant and more "exotic" arts of the world, as well as = those "exotics" which exist close to hand. (The Surrealists' Flea market, = Joseph Cornell's garage full of old magazines and found matrials from thrif= t stores, etc, Schwitter's use of street found debris--and the one found by= Dubuffet in his concept of Art Brut.) In Baudelaire, the continual theme of "le Voyage" needs no distant places t= o go--it can be a journey through his mistress' hair, or through a grubby a= lley--or to a hashish smoking session. Later, Huysman's character Des Esse= intes in A Rebours Against the Grain is the Engllish title) simply goes to = an English pub as it exits in its exact state for the use of Englishmen in = Paris, rtaher than having to bore himself with the tedium expense and time = of a trip to the actual England. Travel becomes the voyage of reverie, dre= am, released by contact with talismanic objects, odors, colors, sounds and = images, texts which are from the place or about the place to which one woul= d like to go. "To shut the eyes is travel" says Emily Dickinson, who wrote of books as sh= ips with which to travel. In this sense, to me, the Yasusada works and Yasusada's idea of writing an = "After Spicer" in honor of Spicer's "After Lorca" functions itself as a tr= avel literature example, in that using the construction which is made use o= f by the hoxed imitations of scholarship of "real texts by real authors," in creating a series of fictional and pseudonymous authors, editors, transl= ators, footnoters, annotators, as well as quotations which are real and fic= tional or faked, to construct both a fictional author and his fictional wo= rks, as well the journey to a distant and exotic land--a Japan which is not= Japan but an "After Japan," not a translation or copy, nor actual document= s, but an imaginary constructed out of the elements of these . via both act= ual and fictional Japanese poets, artists, places and events. After all, what is Spicer's Lorca's Spain? Or his Spanish language? Where= are they existing in Spicer's text? The traveling with Lorca that Spicer = indicates is done in the home of Spicer's, as of two lovers living togetehr= for a season. It is in a sense of the continuation of the voyage of Baude= laire through his mistress' hair as a voyage-to-a-text, as well as that voy= age of Poe,s in which the white ghostly spaces left by the vanished ghost o= f the lover-- "After" effects, so that work is written both "After" Lorca l= iterarily and" literally"--after Lorca the lover of the summer in autumn ha= s departed. And indeed, the introductory letter opening the text is writte= n by Lorca--the already dead poet speaking from beyond the grave as his own= ghostly After effects become ghost-written by Spicer as his "After Lorca." For Poe, the "Aftereffects' are "mournful and never ending remembrance" which also tries continually to be reanimated from out of the coffin--into = a state between life and death, dream and waking--in which al things possib= le may occur--an open area of uncertainty--where Poe and Pym takes turns au= thoring the same text, each one vanishing as the other reappears, back from= the supposedly dead, to assert his rightful place in place of the one livi= ng and writing in his absence. To battle with the double of oneself--in th= is suspended state--the tale of "William Wilson"--Rimbaud and his "I is an = other"--the confrontation with the hoaxy aspects as well as the documentary= and imaginary--of writing and of what is an author--not a who--but a what-= -as though the author really matters--when as Poe asserts in the "Philosoph= y of Composition" --one begins with determining what the effect is that one= would like to produce. In other words, an "after effect" which precedes its own creation--just as = the "Philosophy of Composition" is written AFTER the composition of "The Ra= ven" and so re-tells the "story" of its creation as an "after-thought" as w= ell as an After-effect----which "reconstructs" an event which actually did = not happen, in order to make an argument for the kind of Composition Poe is= propounding as the one best suited to create the kind of "great effects on= an audience" that the "Raven" had. By demonstrating that he worked backwa= rds, deductively and rationally to produce what are the "irrational" yet also "mechanically engineered" effects of the poem and its Raven repeat= edly & (a robot Raven, an "synthetic intelligence"--?) mechanically"quothin= g""Nevermore"--Poe writes "after the fact" the non history of a poem in ord= er to prove that his "irrationality" as person does not exist, nor does it = in the poem, but al of it, all of it--can be explained! In the very act of essaying to be the ultra rational one, Poe begins to sou= nd not unlike one of his irrational characters in the process of trying to = defend their actions, which came from that other source he depicts so vivid= ly in a different piece, "The Imp of the Perverse." As a writer, Poe is experiencing and detailing not the "death of the author= "--but the cracking, corroding, collapsing, dispersal and disappearance-rea= ppearance dead-alive, living dead,suspended animation state of an author in= which the uncertainty principle is at work. so that the author is beginnin= g to have trouble distinguishing between himself and his invented authors, = his characters,his texts, his hoaxes and documentations, his published "mar= ginalia" which appear in Newspapers as "real" and which are "made up" as he= owned no library to annotate, but only about three books at the time. And how does Poe exist today? He stil exists as after effects in America a= s the the creation of a poison pen obituary written by Rufus Griswold! The = source for good deal of the myths of Poe is this outright piece of slander. Poe himself became a part of long running tabloid sensationalism, both addi= ng to and altering, shifting, his status as a writer hovering ever suspende= d among a series of faked images and stories about himself, and his own suc= h creations. In this sense Poe has realized in a peculiar way one aspect o= f his dream of existing among the living-dead, as he himself continues to e= xist as this mixture of urban legend, movie versions, illustrations, endles= s repackagings of his works, endless new theories about them, endless new d= iscoveries not only of original editions themselves but also of the actual = facts which he did make use of and which had been thought to be his own hoa= xes. In a sense, to understand a genealogy of "post modern" examples of appropri= ation, is to find Burroughs' impossible glossary of wrods whose intention a= re fugitive--for the moment one were to define, control, st boundaries and = divide into categories, classifications, the very thing one is observing in= order to do this, would continually be breaking it asunder, decomposing it= , rearranging it--and so, the place to "begin" is in actuality in the daily= newspapers or news in any media--as there one finds the continual dispersa= l of writings and writers evidenced in the symptoms of language which are r= egistering the seismographic chartings of voyages which never cease traveli= ng, never cease their production of effects and After effects, fall out, ra= dioactive dusts--mutations and permutations--ghosts and ghost written texts= -- The "Purloined Letter(s)" found hidden in plain site/sight/cite all around one-- the War which was founded on forged texts and paintings of non existent fot= os--the widespread use of "election fraud" as a technique both to count vot= ing and to frighten off voting-- the uses of torture to produce "confession= s" which are false or real or who knows what--but which are none the less u= sed as "proofs"--even though the actual confession may never be revealed-- = the persons detained without any accusations-- that is, the non-writings of= non texts which condemn persons non accused to be detained indefinitely-- = the ways in which a society inoculates itself by the alteration and vanishi= ng of words from what it does not want to or like to or is not meant to hea= r or read-- the uses of appropriation are everywhere one around-- perhaps w= hat is really the purpose is to find the ways in which these are all interr= elated and so constitute the existence of culture as it is presenting itsel= f to itself through its appropriated and faked and hoaxed uses of words and= images- rather than a typology in which the separations are made so as to = exclude one domain from another--and so to deny or deliberately or not miss= the effects and After effects of all the various means and meanings of appropriation-- This particular study of my own i call "The New Extreme Experimental Americ= an Poetry and Arts"-- this interrealtionship of aspects across, among, thro= ugh and around appropriation in constructing a language which essays to den= y what it is capble of and is in many instances doing daily, as a matter of= routine-- a language which allows persons the appearnces of freedom when i= n fact tightening and contsraining ever more tightly and narrowly the range= s of awareness and questioinng- and at the same time to find the actions an= d uses of appropriation which decompose this massive compostion one is pres= ented with as a reality which in fact is but a continaully tweaked construc= tion in which language used by all is participating daily-- to study the co= mposition and to find the decompositions-- as much as possible, though one = oneself is pitifully limited-- On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 4:01 AM, Wystan Curnow wrot= e: > Murat, Tom, Barry, David, > As we are seeing "appropriation"'s precursors are > varied and commonplace, to the extent that the term itself appears > reductive--Chaucer's only 'a great appropriator' if his practice is > presumed to be informed by a modern idea (and its attention laws and > prohibitions)of authorship. > I am more interested in the varieties of contemporary > 'appropriation' --it seems such a dumbly provocative term, so > post-modern fer crissakes--which is the way Murat's remarks about > recent 'attacks on authorship and orginality' are pointed. The value > of a geneology of appropriation, or a pre-history of authorship seems > to be that it may help generate a typology of current practices and > possibilities in which re-use, refried, is understood as more like the n= orm than the exception. > Wystan > > > > ________________________________________ > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Murat Nemet-Nejat [muratnn@GMAIL.COM] > Sent: Saturday, 1 November 2008 8:44 a.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > > Tom, Barry, David, > > Appropriation is the basic Medieval mode of writing, either, as Barry > says, citation being the prevalent trope of writing or as outright approp= riation. > Chaucer is the great appropriator in English literature. Troylus and > Cresyda is for all purposes, with some changes, of Boccaccio's > Philostrato, without Chaucer ackknowledging it as such. This does not > mean that he was being dishonest or propagating a hoax, simply that > that was a natural Medieval writing process. A number of Chaucer's > earlier works (the titles escape me > now) start with a dream passage, introducing or framing the narrative > which will follow. This was a common Medieval trope. A number of > times, Chaucer lifts his dream passages from French examples. > > To understand the process better, it might be helpful to look at > Medieval Cathedrals, masterpieces with no named architects. The whole > construct is seen as a communal activity, something beyond the individual= or authorship. > The same ethos, an ethos of poetics, applies to writing also. Ruskin > understood this. I think it is the source of his modernity. When > David, Kent Johnson, myself and a few others, in various ways, attack > the notion of originality or authorship, elevating the editor, the > translator, the anthologist, the creator of hoaxes, the heteronymous > author, the hypertext to a central position, replacing these tropes > for the figure of the "poet," > they are actually trying to go back to the same Medieval view of > authorship and creation. Recently, Jerome Rothenberg and I had a > conversation where we discussed the concept of the anthology being the > ideal form of a sacred text. That discusion also, I believe, were along t= he same lines. > > Though in the 17th century the idea of the individual author was > already present, one can see in certain authors the earlier prominence > of citation still in full swing. One can cite three works along these > lines where appropriations are integral to the text: Burton's *The > Anatomy of Melancholy *, Browne's "Urn Buryals," Montaigne's *Essays*. > > If I remember correctly, Swift's *The Tale of the Tub* parodies the > same style of appropriation in its person; nevertheless, in this > parody the earlier style is still in full force. In English > Literature, I think Johnson and Pope give a "temporarily fatal blow" > to the process mocking its rube-like primitiveness (even Shakespeare > could not escape the opprobrium) and elevating originality to a poetic > ideal. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 1:00 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > > > hi all, > > > > catherine daly and mark weiss were looking for some clarification on > > my question regarding a possible genealogy or history of > > appropriative writing. first off, and thanks to those who provided > > 20th-century examples but yes i'm really looking for precedents > > prior to dada and high modernism. > > > > as far as defining terms, i really do have in mind mostly what mark > > says, substantive if not wholesale incorporation of an other('s) > > text, however identified or not, into one's own. so i'm less > > interested in, say, the rhapsode as song-stitcher of a people's > > tales; or as dave chirot points to among his many great suggestions, > > the renaissance notion of imitation or authority through citation of > > others rather than through originality; or citation as example, > > through which, as dave points out, many pre-socratic, sapphic etc > > fragments found their sole survival; or translation, which still in > > most cases wants to preserve and remain faithful to the original author= 's intent... > > > > and so as to catherine's "appropriation how/why," precisely. i'm > > looking to a genealogy of appropriative poetics in part to > > differentiate poets' means, intents, motives etc for doing so in the > > first place. so for example, 1) tzara says make a dada poem by > > tearing up a newspaper and arranging the strips you've pulled from a > > hat; 2) pound, reznikoff, rukeyser pull documents from the > > historical and legal records to include in their poems; 3) cage > > reads thru joyce, thoreau, etc and creates mesostics from their > > words. clearly in each case the authors have different motivations > > for these appropriative acts and i'd like to try to map out the > > field, including precedents for this kind of activity. > > > > additional suggestions and discussion welcome... > > > > thanks, > > tom orange > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 17:51:47 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gloria Frym Subject: Re: new adventures of walt whitman In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable These videos are wonderful! Thanks for posting. I give Whitman seminars = for undergrad and grad students. One favorite undergrad commented on = Wednesday that Whitman would adore what Obama stands for and highly = applaud his seeming ability to unify. Further adventures. Gloria Frym Gloria Frym Associate Professor Writing & Literature, MFA Writing California College of the Arts San Francisco ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Nate Pritts" To: Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 5:57 PM Subject: new adventures of walt whitman Just for fun, my 11th grade, gifted English class is making Walt Whitman = videos. I decided to make my own "series" - The New Adventures of Walt = Whitman! The first three episodes are up now with three more to come this week. http://www.youtube.com/user/n8pritts Check them out! & if you happen to have any favorite Whitman lines - = from Song of Myself or elsewhere - send them to me & maybe we'll do = those next! n8 ___________ :: Nate Pritts is an Honorary Astronaut :: http://www.natepritts.com :: http://www.correspondentbreeze.blogspot.com =20 _________________________________________________________________ Get 5 GB of storage with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_5g= b_112008 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check = guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 18:43:47 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Fw: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Feel free = to label me, so long as it's an accurate label. If by neo-liberal you mean = a new kind of classical liberal that supports free markets, science, consti= tutional democratic government, and social liberty, then I am happily and p= roudly a neo-liberal.=0A=0A2. "spouting off talking points" is something po= liticians and demagogues do and for which I have no respect at all. It has = nothing to do with women. If I had wanted to be sexist, I would have chosen= the term "hysterical." I think we both know enough etymology to understand= my clear intent there. The two examples you gave would have been appropria= te had I used "hysterical" rather than "screeched," as each are a clear, un= ambiguous reference to African-American history. Also, I did, twice, ackno= wledge that you did engage the issues, and you have, twice ignored the fact= that I have done so.=0A=0AOn the marriage issue: 70% of African-Americans = voted against Prop 8; 65% of Hispanics voted against it.; 49% of whites vot= ed against it. That's not scapegoating. Those are hard numbers. Again, you = are implying racism here, which is only intended to shut down argument -- n= ot to mention ridiculous, as my wife is Mexican-American. =0A=0AI agree wit= h point 2, which is why I am generally against democracy as practiced by Ca= lifornia. I believe in a constitutional democratic republic, which is under= mined by such things as the pure democracy demonstrated by CA on Prop. 8. = =0A=0AThe reason for the dissonance between the vote for Obama and the vote= against Prop. 8 is that if you were to poll African-Americans and Hispanic= s on the issues, they don't actually support the things supported by the De= mocratic Party on things ranging from gay rights and abortion to school vou= chers and basic economic issues. Both groups also tend to be pro-military. = So why do they vote Democrat when ideologically they are Republicans? The D= emocratic Party has done a brilliant job of convincing them that the GOP is= vaguely "against" them -- and nobody bothers to look up the fact that the = Civil Rights Bill of 1964 was voted for 65% by Republicans, but only 55% by= Democrats. Should the GOP ever figure out how to overcome the DNC rhetoric= , I'm afraid that things like Prop. 8 are going to become much more common.= =0A=0ATroy=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: amy king =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Sunday, Nov= ember 9, 2008 5:18:28 PM=0ASubject: Re: Fw: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "S= eparate But Equal" [Troy & Mark]=0A=0ATroy,=0A=0A =0A=0A1. You are not mer= ely=0A=93labeling=94 things when you insist on slinging around your =93libe= ral tactics=94=0Aaccusations. You are name calling, and you=0Aare attempti= ng to group my responses *to your claims* in with a group that you=0Aclearl= y revile. These efforts are ad=0Ahominem attacks, meant to distract and de= tract from my responses. =0A=0A =0A=0AWho here has dubbed you anything, Tr= oy? =0AShall I call you a =93neo-liberal=94 repeatedly and deride your =93n= eo-liberal=0Atactics=94 at every turn so that you can become mired in defen= ding why you are=0Anot one? What would be the point if we are truly=0Aatt= empting to have a constructive discussion? =0AAgain, I ask you, why do you = compulsively need, in your every response,=0Ato group everyone together on = this list as a liberal or some such=0Anonsense? One only need look through= =0Ayour posts in the archives to understand this as one method of your argu= mentation. =0A=0A =0A=0A2. The road to hell=0Ais paved with good intentio= ns. However,=0Athe words we select certainly imply many things. Your cons= tant need to characterize responses=0Awith certain adjectives carries a res= ponsibility that you would like to shirk. Telling me that I =93chose to re= ad it that way;=0Athat isn=92t what you meant=94 doesn=92t magically erase = your responsibility for the=0Awords you have chosen. =0A=0A =0A=0AWhen was= the last time you heard a man=92s response characterized=0Aas a screech or= any other typically nasty adjective meant to imply that he has=0Aa shrill = voice from which one cannot decipher his meaning? To imply that I =93scree= ched=94 in response to=0Ayour argument, as well as only =93spouted off some= talking points=94 instead of =93actually=0Areading=94 your response is a t= ransparent effort to render my reply as one based=0Ain ignorance and an emo= tional voice raising that doesn=92t let you hear what I=92m=0Asaying =96 yo= ur characterizations are, at best, in bad faith, and one need only read=0At= hrough the tread below to see that falsity of your ongoing accusations: I = continue to respond to your claims in each=0Apost, despite your name callin= g (again, see below).=0A=0A =0A=0ABut to make this point clear, let me give= you some recent=0Aexamples of how intentions don=92t render the social mea= ning and weight of words=0Ainvisible--=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A* Ralph Nader on=0AB= arack Obama: =0A=0A =0A=0A"To put it very simply, he is our first=0AAfrican= -American president... But his choice, basically, is whether he's going=0At= o be Uncle Sam for the people of this country, or Uncle Tom for the giant= =0Acorporations."=0A=0A =0A=0ANow, I=92m sure Ralph Nader didn=92t =93inten= d=94 to conjure any=0Aracist history and implications by determining that O= bama would be an =93Uncle=0ATom=94 for the giant corporations because surel= y he would say the same thing=0Aabout a white candidate, no?=0A=0A =0A=0A* = Bill O=92Reilly on=0AMichelle Obama:=0A=0A =0A=0A"I don't want to go on a = lynching party against=0AMichelle Obama unless there's evidence."=0A=0A =0A= =0AAgain, I=92m sure O=92Reilly didn=92t =93intend=94 anything racist by=0A= associating Michelle Obama with the violent atrocities that African America= ns=0Ahave suffered by deciding he wouldn=92t lynch her =96 because he would= say such a=0Athing about a white person too, no? =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A* A= mild version of=0Athe sexist language in the same camp as =93screeching=94= that recently reared and=0Acelebrated its ugly head is smeared all over th= e world in relation to Hillary=0AClinton:=0A=0A =0A=0A"HENS CACKLE. So do w= itches. And, so does the=0Afront-runner in the Democratic presidential cont= est. Former Bill Clinton=0Aadviser Dick Morris recently described Hillary C= linton's laugh as 'loud,=0Ainappropriate, and mirthless. . . . A scary soun= d that was somewhere between a=0Acackle and a screech.'"=0A=0Ahttp://mediac= rit.wetpaint.com/page/Sexist+Language+in+Media+Coverage+of+Hillary+Clinton?= t=3Danon=0A=0A =0A=0ABut something tells me that my efforts here are futile= .. Because again, you accuse me of all manner of=0Anastiness, including not= engaging you on the issues, which I have consistently=0Adone, and yet, you= have ignored my last response and direct question to what=0Aseems to be a = far-fetched claim. Again,=0Ajust when has the gov=92t intervened and force= d any church to hire someone of the=0Agay lifestyle? Perhaps it has happen= ed=0Aand that example has instilled some real fear in some of those who sup= ported=0AProp 8, but I cannot imagine who since you offer no evidence =85 = =0A=0A =0A=0AI=92ll say one last thing about the marriage issue. Marriage = ultimately isn=92t the issue for=0Ame. The greater issues at hand are 1.) = Scapegoating African Americans and Hispanics=0Ais way too easy. Many, man= y more white=0Apeople pushed Prop 8 through. The=0Apowers-that-be enjoy it= when we begin to split and compare who is more=0Adisenfranchised; their po= wers are secure in this type of fragmentation. More importantly, how does = this power work=0Astructurally and how do we address it? 2.) The tenets o= f my argument are better outlined=0Abelow, but overall, this is an issue, i= n simple terms, that shows one majority=0Agroup in America=0Ahad no problem= denying another group of Americans a constitutionally-guaranteed=0Aright. = Where is the hope in that? =0A=0A =0A=0AThe amazing contrast that took pl= ace last week was the vote=0Afor hope via the election of Obama on the one = hand while a number of=0ACalifornians denied a group of Americans a specifi= c right on the other. What does that truly say about the state of=0Aour na= tion and our personal anxieties as Americans? That we must always have som= e sort of enemy=0Aat hand to feel secure? That we are not open to examini= ng why we=0Abelieve what we do, esp when it is exclusionary, and how we ena= ct those beliefs=0Awe seem to hold dear? That we must=0Aalways label every= person in an effort to keep them in the camps and groups to=0Ahighlight *w= ho is not us*? Apparently so, it seems, and that line of=0Athinking is p= ervasive, dangerous, and all important, reliant on insipid segregation=0Afi= rst and foremost, even here. And that=0Aline of thinking is exactly how Bu= sh got so many Americans to support the=0Aimperialist occupation we call a = war and got so so many of =93those Iraqis=94=0Amaimed and brutally murdered= =85 =0A=0A =0A=0AAmy=0A=0A=0A=0A_______=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARecent work=0A= =0Ahttp://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html=0A=0A=0A=0AAmy's Alia= s=0A=0Ahttp://amyking.org/=0A=0A--- On Sun, 11/9/08, Troy Camplin wrote:=0AFrom: Troy Camplin =0ASubjec= t: Fw: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark]=0ATo= : POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ADate: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 4:53 PM=0A= =0AI do find it funny that someone on a poetry group is complaining about u= sing=0Awords to label things, as that's what all words do. Words do mean th= ings,=0Aeven if there may be some ambiguity. And like things are typically = groups=0Atogether under a single label. It's useful to label wolves as wolv= es, and=0Awolves, foxes, coyotes, and jackals as dogs. =0A=0A=0AIf I did no= t intend "screeching" as sexist, then it's not sexist.=0AYour choosing to i= nterpret it as sexist means you are the poor interpreter of my=0Ameaning. I= t's simply bad textual analysis on your part, attributing meaning=0Athe aut= hor did not in any way intend. Next you'll be telling me MacBeth is=0Aabout= growing pine trees in Scotland. =0A=0AAnd you will note that I did engage = the issues, and I was decent enough to=0Aacknowledge that you had to. It se= ems you don't have the decency to extend=0Ato me the same courtesy. My prid= e is not hurt -- though your thinking it does=0Aclearly IS sexist on your p= art. Perhaps your sexism is why you see sexism where=0Athere isn't any?=0A= =0AThe real absurdity here is that you don't seem to care that you and I in= =0Afact agree that marriage should be legally extended to everyone, regardl= ess of=0Athe sex of the people getting married. What seems to matter most t= o you is that=0AI'm not a liberal like yourself.=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A= =0A________________________________=0AFrom: amy king = =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Sunday, November 9, 2008 10:31:= 35 AM=0ASubject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Tro= y=0A& Mark]=0A=0ATroy,=0A=0AContinuing to label my responses as so many "li= beral tactics" carries=0Aon your condescension, and indeed, your characteri= zation of my original reply as=0A"screeching" most certainly is sexist, whe= ther I "choose" to=0Aread it that way or not. You're trying to shuck the w= eight of your words by=0Amaking the weight they carry my burden to accept o= r deny them -- but you are the=0Aone flinging such nasty characterizations,= and you have felt it historically=0Anecessary on this list to do so with m= any people (i.e. "liberal=0Atactics" is but one seeming insult in your Poe= tics List arsenal). Why the=0Aurge to label and characterize responses on = this list at all?=0A=0AWhy not take your own advice and just "engage the is= sues", as you=0Acontinue to claim that I did not do. In fact, I have done = nothing but respond=0Ato your claims (re-read the whole thread below), as w= ell as point out the ad=0Ahominem strains in your response. It is this lat= ter aspect of my reply that=0Ahurts your pride and raises the defensive hai= rs on your back. But your style of=0Aarguing is full of unnecessary bait &= attack that reminds me of Rush=0ALimbaugh's "responses" to feminist claims= -- if you call her an=0Aangry cow, you no longer have to listen to what sh= e says; you need only paint a=0Apicture of her and ask that she be tamed, o= r try to tame her yourself. =0A"Screeching" runs along those same lines, l= ike it or not ... =0A=0A=0ARegarding the meat of your argument, I'd like to= know when the U.S.=0AGovernment forced any church to hire people whose lif= estyles they didn't=0Aapprove of? I really don't know about any instances = of such legal=0Aintervention with any church regarding the hiring of gay cl= ergy and am quite=0Acurious. Were these instances in the Catholic church? = =0A=0AAdditionally, I'd like to point out, though I use the term too, that= even=0A"gay marriages" seems misguided. Marriages are marriages are=0Amar= riages. We don't say, "The government should perform bi-racial=0Amarriages= .." Instead, we demand that everyone have the right to marry. I=0Asuppose = it would be difficult to keep saying, 'Give the right to marry to=0Athe GLB= T community,' but perhaps demanding "Marriage Equality"=0Ainstead could be = a simple start to eliminating the marginialized thinking this=0Aissue susta= ins. =0A=0ABe well,=0A=0AAmy=0A=0A=0A_______=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARecent work= =0A=0Ahttp://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html=0A=0A=0A=0AAmy's A= lias=0A=0Ahttp://amyking.org/=0A=0A--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Troy Camplin wrote:=0AFrom: Troy Camplin =0ASub= ject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy=0A& Mark]= =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ADate: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 9:4= 5 PM=0A=0AI will only quickly note that this is the kind of argument I was = merely asking=0Afor, and that it is quite different in tone from the other = posting -- though I=0Awill criticize you on the fact that if mine was conde= scending, this was off the=0Abarometer. Let's both make an effort to keep i= t civilized. Further,=0Ait's=0Ayou who chose to interpret my comment about = screeching, etc. in a sexist=0Afashion. Another all-too-typical liberal tac= tic: to shut down arguments with=0Aaccusations of racism, sexism, etc. rath= er than engaging the issues. My=0Aexperience is that too many liberals are = screechers, regardless of sex. If you=0Achoose to take offense at my remark= s, remember that it is you who are choosing=0Ato take offense -- there is n= othing inherently offensive in what I wrote.=0AFinally, a good idea is a go= od idea, no matter where it comes from. I think=0Aalmost every thought of M= arx's is pure evil -- but when he has a good idea,=0Ahe has a good idea. Do= n't disregard Sun Tzu just=0Abecause he was an aristocrat -- he was an aris= tocrat who won wars (if I were a=0Aliberal, I would accuse you of disregard= ing him because he was Chinese,=0Asomething I'm certain is absurd). =0A=0AT= hat having been said, I do take several of your points. The civil rights=0A= arguments are an excellent approach. Having been raised a Baptist in Kentuc= ky,=0Aand being now married to an Hispanic, I think I have some expertise i= n the=0Aareas=0Aof which I speak. My experience is that religious people ra= ther claim that=0Ahomosexuality is "unnatural." This is quickly undermined = by the=0Aaforementioned examples, which puts them in a tight rhetorical spo= t, as they=0Anow=0Ahave to regroup and argue that "well, we're not animals.= We're=0Asupposed to be better." I typically then direct them to their prev= ious=0Aargument. If they claim it's a mater of choice, I can and have prove= n=0Aotherwise. Having demonstrated the incoherence of their argument, they = have=0Atypically then been more receptive to other arguments regarding civi= l rights,=0Aetc. The real issue for many religious people, I think, is less= that the=0Agovernment "recognize" gay marriage than that they have a fear = that=0Athe government=0Awill turn around and force their church to perform = gay marriage ceremonies.=0AThere have been several cases of churches being = forced by law to hire someone=0Awhose lifestyle they did not approve of, so= their fears are not entirely=0Aunfounded. It seems to me, then, that if we= are going to win this argument, we=0Ahave to figure out a way to assuage t= hose concerns. And if we are truly=0Abelievers in a separation of church an= d state, we cannot use the state to force=0Athe churches to accept our worl= d view. That should, in fact, require persuasion=0Arather than laws. One co= uld also point out to fundamentalists that there is=0Amuch=0Aprohibited by = the Bible we do not bother with, so why are we picking and=0Achoosing? I re= commend Peter McWilliams' "Ain't Nobody's=0ABusiness If You Do" for some ex= cellent arguments along those lines. =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A________= ________________________=0AFrom: amy king =0ATo: POET= ICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 7:22:56 PM=0ASu= bject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy=0A& Mark= ]=0A=0ATroy,=0A=0AI know this will be difficult to admit, but your reply, a= nd often times your=0Astyle of arguing here, is hypocritical in its condesc= ension. =0A=0AHaving grown up on the Bible Belt in Stone Mountain, GA, I u= sed to be one of=0Athose "religious people" and, as such, continue to commu= nicate with=0Athem. My response to you *is* my response to those religious= people you've=0Adetermined I don't understand.=0A=0AHowever, I don't need = you to explain to me "how people think" and=0Ahow to respond, verbatim, to = "African Americans and Hispanics" -- for=0Ayou to be so elementary and cond= escending is just another tactic to avoid=0Aengaging my reasonable response= to your arguments, which I find as base as=0Athose=0Aput forth by religiou= s people you dubbed yourself an expert on.=0A=0ANow, I'll explain to you ho= w my reply, as an argument, works.=0A=0A1. I refuse to engage with religio= us folks, and anyone else, on the basis of=0Athe "Nature vs. Nurture" level= simply because to do so inevitably=0Adevolves into a moral discussion typi= cally reliant on the Holy Bible as the=0Aauthority of choice. I don't base= my argument on what the Holy Bible=0Aclaims, but instead, keep the argumen= t framed within the rights provided by the=0AU.S. Constitution. =0A=0AJust= because "that's how religious people think" doesn't mean=0AI must concede = and allow them to use that bible as the foundation of this=0Aargument (reca= ll separation of church and state). I can engage them without=0Asuch conce= ssions -- and do. In fact, the argument for civil rights, however=0Abased = in morality vs. immortality for them, is truly not about whose moral=0Abaro= meter is correct at all, as I imagine you know -- it is a matter of rights= =0A*for everyone* despite and including our differences, even moral ones, a= s=0Aacknowledged by separation of church and state.=0A=0A2. My calling the= "Nature vs. Nurture" debate a perversion should=0Ahave tipped you off, sin= ce the rest didn't. They like to call=0Ahomosexuality=0Aa "perversion," bu= t debating its existence as one of nature v.=0Anurture=0Ato determine who g= ets what rights is itself a perversion. =0A =0A3. Further, you have incl= uded in your "argument" the very kind of=0Athinking religious people resort= to -- that of arguing the very existence of=0Ahomosexuality as "proven" by= its existence in nature. Who cares? =0A(That's a rhetorical one, Troy. I= know who cares.) The point is that you=0Aargue a biological basis for hom= osexuality as evidenced in the behavior of=0Aanimals. Religious folks will= argue in return that we aren't animals and=0Ashouldn't be gay just because= they might be by some freak of nature. (Plus=0Athey like to take being ga= y a step further with this argument and ask if=0Awe'd like to marry goats n= ext -- with a snort and a 'ha ha' to=0Afinalize the absurdity of the entire= proposition). =0A=0AWhy resort to such tactics? Just because they do? J= ust because that's=0Awhere they might find their moral footing? Nearly equ= ating homosexuality with=0Aanimals (I know, you didn't) only denigrates any= merit for seeking rights=0Aas=0Apeople who are different than them -- desp= ite our differences, even in morality=0A-- and certainly does not change th= eir minds. It never has. Bringing the=0Aproof=0Aof animal behavior into t= he argument only distracts and opens the door for=0Atasteless jokes at the = expense of any legitimacy for the claim to civil rights=0Afor each and ever= y person in this country. (I say in the face of whether we=0Ashould exist = or not, we do and we will not go away, marriage rights or no. =0AWhether we= choose to be gay or are "born that way", who I love is my=0A*choice* and I= certainly have the right to choose).=0A=0AFinally, characterizing my reply= as "screeching" and labeling it as=0Athe "liberal social agenda" -- even o= nly by association -- as well as=0Aclaiming I didn't read your post in favo= r of "spouting off talking=0Apoints" is a typically sexist admonishment and= so much ad hominem name=0Acalling used to avoid engaging the tenets of the= argument I actually laid out=0Ain direct reply to your post. In this elem= entary manner, you get to ride in on=0Ayour noble steed and re-frame our di= scussion by writing me off as some sort of=0Alil' unworldly & uninformed la= dy who needs the religious-minded=0Aexplained to me so that I can "know my = enemy" via another nobleman=0Ayou conjure, Sun Tzu. =0A=0AI'm sorry; I won= 't bat my eyes and be impressed that you "found my=0Anaivete out." Instead= , I'll suggest you engage with the actual basis=0Aof my argument and ask yo= u to please stop being unnecessarily instructive. =0AConsider us on equal f= ooting intellectually and go from there. =0A=0AIn response to your last po= st regarding why folks who voted for Obama would=0Aalso vote for Prop 8, I = would say that the African Americans and Hispanics you=0Acite were not sole= ly responsible for its passage. Yes, I understand on an exit=0Apoll that t= hey voted for it 7 to 10, their turn-out was up percentage points,=0Aetc. = But this Prop 8 campaign was quite well-funded by the Mormon church and=0Aw= as built and thrived on fear. McCain also attempted to run his campaign on= =0Afear; his tactic lost where the Mormons scared a good number of Californ= ians=0Ainto believing all sorts of ridiculous notions reliant on the idea t= hat=0Amarriage itself would be threatened and worthless if everyone were al= lowed that right. =0ARegarding the communities you name: the LGBT communit= y did not go into those=0Aneighborhoods and educate; the Mormon fear campai= gn ran rampant, hence the exit=0Apolls. It's a complicated mix of who sol= d who on what fear; who spoke out=0Afor their rights and where, and who sim= ply doesn't care if everyone has the same rights,=0Aparticularly where thei= r own aren't threatened. =0A=0ABut to take on the religious tenets of the = Mormon church (Joseph Smith's=0Aideals, no less!) and debate them on their = way of thinking, particularly in=0Aterms of Nature vs. Nurture as you sugge= st, certainly will not advance the=0Afight=0Afor those rights nor will it r= ender the fear mongering ineffective. To change=0Athe ways of thinking abo= ut this issue and frame the debate in legal terms will=0Ago a lot further, = and has historically done so. In other words: It's okay=0Aif you don't li= ke my lifestyle, or if you don't like my skin tone, or=0Ayou think my relig= ion is not as good as yours; it's your right to think=0Athat way, but I'm a= citizen of this country, pay my taxes, participate in the=0Acogs of our ec= onomy, and am a citizen under the eyes of the law -- ergo, I=0Adeserve my r= ights the same as every other person in this country. =0A=0ABe well,=0A=0A= Amy=0A=0A_______=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARecent work=0A=0Ahttp://www.writing.upenn= ..edu/pennsound/x/King.html=0A=0A=0A=0AAmy's Alias=0A=0Ahttp://amyking.org/= =0A=0A--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Troy Camplin wrote:=0AFr= om: Troy Camplin =0ASubject: Re: Civil Unions vs. Ma= rriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy=0A& Mark]=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFA= LO.EDU=0ADate: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 3:03 PM=0A=0ASometimes I wonder = if anyone actually reads what anyone says and considers=0Atheir=0Aactual ar= guments or if they just act like politicians and spout off their=0Atalking = points regardless.=0A=0AThe question of whether or not "being gay" is natur= al or a choice is=0Anot "beyond moot" to those againstgay marriage. To such= people, their=0Abelief that being gay is a choice has everything to do wit= h it. They would=0Aargue=0Athat choosing to be gay is like choosing to be a= murderer, and insofar as both=0Aare immoral, both should be opposed. I, of= course, to not consider this to be=0Athe case. I too understand that sexua= lity is fluid and that, as a species, Homo=0Asapiens, like our close relati= ves the bonobos, are a bisexual species. Less=0Abisexual than bonobos, but = more so than chimpanzees. The fact that hazy=0Asexuality is a biological fa= ct in the human species is not moot, and is in fact=0Aa benefit to those wh= o want to argue for civil rightsrecognitions. If you want=0Ato make any hea= dway on this issue, you have to understand the position of the=0Aopposition= .. "Know your enemy as you know yourself and you will not=0Afail." -- Sun Tz= u. The reason so many liberals can't get=0Aanything done is that you think = screeching at the top of your lungs is what=0Agets things done, and you don= 't even bother to try to argue your point. And=0Ayour lack of understanding= of how people think -- especially religious people=0A--=0Ais what prevents= you from understanding how Obama can win the Presidency, but=0Athe African= -Americans and Hispanics who voted for them voted against the=0Aliberal=0As= ocial agenda. I'm trying to explain it to you, and all you have to say is= =0Athat their reasons, which they consider to be central to their belief sy= stem,=0Ais=0Amerely a "moot point." It's condescending to them, and won't= =0Awin any arguments with them.=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A______________= __________________=0AFrom: amy king =0ATo: POETICS@LI= STSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 11:20:44 AM=0ASubject= : Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy=0A& Mark]=0A=0ATr= oy,=0A=0AThe question of being gay as "natural" or a "choice" is=0Abeyond m= oot. Since the constitution provides everyone equal rights - ahem - I=0Ash= ould be allowed to marry whomever I choose, so long as they consent and=0Ac= hoose me as well. To devolve into such debate over whether the selection o= f=0Aone's spouse is a choice, a coercion, a divine intervention, a propheti= c union, or=0Awhat-have-you is to distract from the purposes & securities p= rovided by the=0Aconstitution. That we *must* be separated by gender was n= ot something our=0Aforefathers predicted would be problematic -- any more t= han when they wrote=0Athat some people weren't exactly human and could be o= wned as chattel. =0A=0ABut in an age when it is beginning to be acknowledg= ed that gender lines are, at=0Abest, blurred and complex, sexes are multipl= e (despite "corrective"=0Ameasures - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/maga= zine/24intersexkids.html &=0Ahttp://www.jenellerose.com/htmlpostings/inters= ex_babies_controversy.htm), and,=0Alike it or not, gender is fluid, to crea= te an amendment defining marriage as=0Abetween a "man" and a "woman" is ins= titutionalized bias. =0ADevolving into the archaic debate of just what peni= s and vagina should be=0Aallowed a legally-sanctioned U.S. Gov't issued con= tract is silly and a=0Adistracting fallacy. Two people should be granted t= he same rights as any other=0Atwo people as written in the constitution. T= his debate heralds back to the=0Anot-so-old one of whether it was "right" t= hat blacks and whites be=0Aallowed the same rights under the law, as if the= races were two different=0Aspecies (see anti-miscegenation laws). It wasn= 't so long ago that people=0Athought it "unnatural" to see two separate ski= n tones loving one another. Some=0Astill think it "unnatural." The debat= e of nature vs nurture is=0Aitself a perversion. =0A=0AAn aside: I think = the passing of Prop 8 speaks moreover to the hope that by=0Adenying the GLB= T community the right to marry will somehow abolish the very=0Aexistence of= that community -- at least, that's my pessimistic read on the=0Awhole deba= cle. Gays/lesbians are the latest "Other" just as=0Aimmigrants remain "Al= ien" on the soil of a people obsessed with=0A"getting and keeping theirs." = =0A=0A=0AMark, =0A=0ASeparations of symbols vs. legalities not withstandin= g, civil unions and=0Adomestic partnerships do NOT provide the same legal b= enefits that marriages do.=0A=0AIt's all in the poetic wording, no? "Sepa= rate but equal" has=0Ahistorically betrayed everyone's "good" intentions. = If=0A"civil unions" were to be federally-mandated, then perhaps that would= =0Acover the legal protections that marriages do, but until then:=0A=0A=0AW= hat are some of the limitations of civil unions?=0A=0A =0A=0A Civil u= nions are different from marriage, and that difference has=0A wide-rangi= ng implications that make the two institutions unequal. Here=0A is a qui= ck look at some of the most significant differences: =0A=0A =0A=0A -P= ortability:=0A=0A =0A=0A Marriages are respected state to state for a= ll purposes, but questions=0A remain about how civil unions will be trea= ted in other states. =0A GLAD=0A believes there are strong arguments = that civil unions deserve respect=0A across the country just like marria= ges. But the two appellate courts=0A that have addressed the issue (in C= onnecticut and Georgia) have=0A disrespected them based on the fact that= their states do not grant civil=0Aunions themselves.=0A=0A =0A=0A -E= nding a Civil Union:=0A=0A =0A=0A If you are married, you can get div= orced in any state in which you are a=0A resident. But if states continu= e to disrespect civil unions, there is=0A no way to end the relationship= other than by establishing residency in=0A Vermont and filing for divor= ce there. This has already created problems=0A for some couples who now = have no way to terminate their legal=0A commitment.=0A=0A =0A=0A -= Federal Benefits:=0A=0A =0A=0A According to a 1997 GAO report, civil = marriage brings with it at least=0A 1,049 legal protections and responsi= bilities from the federal=0A government, including the right to take lea= ve from work to care for a=0A family member, the right to sponsor a spou= se for immigration purposes,=0A and Social Security survivor benefits th= at can make a difference between=0A old age in poverty and old age in se= curity. Civil unions bring none of=0A these critical legal protections.= =0A=0A =0A=0A -Taxes & Public Benefits for the Family:=0A=0A =0A= =0A Because the federal government does not respect civil unions, a coup= le=0A with a civil union will be in a kind of limbo with regard to=0A = governmental functions performed by both state and federal governments,=0A= such as taxation, pension protections, provision of insurance for=0A = families, and means-tested programs like Medicaid. Even when states try=0A= to provide legal protections, they may be foreclosed from doing so in= =0A joint federal/state programs.=0A=0A =0A=0A -Filling out forms:= =0A=0A =0A=0A Every day, we fill out forms that ask us whether we are= married or=0A single. People joined in a civil union don't fit into eit= her category.=0A People with civil unions should be able to identify the= mselves as a=0A single family unit, but misrepresenting oneself on offic= ial documents=0A can be considered fraud and carries potential serious c= riminal=0A=0A penalties. =0A=0A =0A=0A -Separate & Unequal -- Seco= nd-Class Status:=0A=0A =0A=0A Even if there were no substantive diffe= rences in the way the law treated=0A marriages and civil unions, the fac= t that a civil union remains a=0A separate status just for gay people re= presents real and powerful=0A inequality. We've been down this road befo= re in this country and should=0A not kid ourselves that a separate insti= tution just for gay people is a=0A just solution here either. Our consti= tution requires legal equality for=0A all. Including gay and lesbian cou= ples within existing marriage laws is=0A the fairest and simplest thing = to do.=0A=0A =0A=0A How real are these differences between marriage a= nd civil unions, given=0A that a federal law and some state laws discrim= inate against all=0A marriages of same-sex couples?=0A=0A =0A=0A W= ould any of this change immediately with marriage of same-sex couples?=0A = Probably not, because married same-sex couples will face other layers of= =0A discrimination against their marriages. Right now, a federal law den= ies=0A recognition of same-sex unions conferred by any state for purpose= s of=0A all federal programs and requirements and over 30 state laws do = the=0A same. Ending discrimination in marriage does not mean the end of = all=0A discrimination, but using the term "marriage" rather than=0A"civi= l union"=0A is an essential first step to opening the door and addressin= g whether=0A continued governmental discrimination against civil marriag= es of gay and=0A lesbian people makes sense. =0A=0A =0A=0A Marriag= e and civil unions remain different, both in practice and in=0A=0A princ= iple. =0A=0A =0A=0A First, more than a dozen states have not taken a = discriminatory position=0A against civil marriages of gay and lesbian co= uples. In those states,=0A civilly married gay and lesbian couples shoul= d be able to live and=0A travel freely and without fear that their relat= ionship will be=0A disrespected.=0A=0A =0A=0A Second, even as to t= hose states with discriminatory laws, legally=0A married gay and lesbian= couples from those states may well face some=0A discrimination in some = quarters, but their marriages will also be=0A treated with legal respect= in other arenas. Marriages are far more=0A likely to be respected by ot= hers than newly minted "civil=0Aunions."=0A=0A =0A=0A Using the term = marriage also prompts a discussion about fairness.=0A Allowing same sex = couples to marry (rather than enter a separate status)=0A will allow gay= and lesbian people to talk with their neighbors, their=0A local elected= officials, and the Congress about whether discrimination=0A against the= ir marriages is fair. Where gay and lesbian people and their=0A children= are part of the social fabric, is it right to continue=0A discriminatin= g against them in civil marriage? The federal government=0A and states t= hat have taken discriminatory positions against marriages of=0A gay and = lesbian couples could rethink those policies and go back to=0A respectin= g state laws about marriage, as they have done for hundreds of=0A years.= In the end, we will not be able to have this discussion until=0A gay an= d lesbian folks have what everyone else=0A has: civil marriage.=0A=0A = =0Ahttp://www.yffn.org/admin/spi/marriagevsunion.html=0Ahttp://lesbianlife= ..about.com/cs/wedding/a/unionvmarriage.htm=0A=0A=0ABe well,=0A=0AAmy=0A=0A_= ______=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARecent work=0A=0Ahttp://www.writing.upenn.edu/penns= ound/x/King.html=0A=0A=0A=0AAmy's Alias=0A=0Ahttp://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A= =0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does no= t accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo= ..edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics = List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A& sub/uns= ub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept = all posts. Check guidelines=0A& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poet= ics/welcome.html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is m= oderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A& sub/unsub info: = http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts= .. Check guidelines=0A& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welco= me.html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated = & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A& sub/unsub info: http://ep= c.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check g= uidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 20:58:34 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: on Walcott and Obama In-Reply-To: <719db60d0811091051o6d70935ag9a458bf748cbfc57@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In US school tests you have to say what colour you are? On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:51 AM, carol dorf wrote: > I think young people have an easier time living in a world without > such essentialist ideas of racial identity. A biracial cousin of my > husband's (he's white) used to say that she was two-tone in high > school. When I was giving the PSATs to a group of 10th graders in the > bay area, a number of kids said "I'm mixed, what do I put," when > forced to choose between African-American and White. While the school > I teach at is at times very racially divided, at other times the > boundaries between categories seem fluid. > Carol > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 19:53:45 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Forty Acres In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE mmm, aye. i like what david wrote--both elation and concern. i like what nader said in the transcript to his interview on fox--both elation and serious concern. that's what i'm feeling. most best, g Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Sat, 8 Nov 2008, Mairead Byrne wrote: > Gabrielle, to my ears even your terms "son of an african chief, went to r= uling class school in hawaii" rock the White House. > Spinning in the huge drum of hope-- > Mairead > > >>> welford@HAWAII.EDU 11/08/08 12:34 AM >>> > i have been thinking about that quite a bit, yes. it's not his genealogy > at all. son of an african chief, went to ruling class school in hawaii..= =2E > all adds to the dampness of my celebration. small bits of hope keep > poking me in the ribs but not very hard. g > > Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. > _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous > Cultures_ > http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317 > _Dora_ > http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378 > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 > > On Fri, 7 Nov 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > > > Not to be a wet blanket, but does anyone notice the irony in the fact t= hat Obama is not a descendent of the people Walcott is talking about in thi= s poem? Some lovely ideas in the images, though. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Daniel Godston > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 3:25:16 PM > Subject: Forty Acres > > O > Forty Acres: a poem for Barack Obama from Nobel winner Derek Walcott > > Out of the turmoil emerges one emblem, an engraving =E2=80=94 > a young Negro at dawn in straw hat and overalls, > an emblem of impossible prophecy, a crowd > dividing like the furrow which a mule has ploughed, > parting for their president: a field of snow-flecked cotton > forty acres wide, of crows with predictable omens > that the young ploughman ignores for his unforgotten > cotton-haired ancestors, while lined on one branch, is a tense > court of bespectacled owls and, on the field's receding rim =E2=80=94 > a gesticulating scarecrow stamping with rage at him. > The small plough continues on this lined page > beyond the moaning ground, the lynching tree, the tornado's > black vengeance, > and the young ploughman feels the change in his veins, > heart, muscles, tendons, > till the land lies open like a flag as dawn's sure > light streaks the field and furrows wait for the sower > > From The New York Times Online > November 5, 2008 > > The West Indies poet Derek Walcott, winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize for > Literature, writes exclusively for The Times to mark the election of Bara= ck Obama as President > > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/= article5088429.ece > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check guideli= nes & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidel= ines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 19:55:48 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Forty Acres In-Reply-To: <551263.71855.qm@web65107.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE mandela spent a long long time in jail for resisting opression. obama is a privileged person. Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Sat, 8 Nov 2008, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > And "son of an African chief" evokes Nelson Mandela, no? Not a bad thing,= I hope... ________________________________ From: Mairead Byrne To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, 8 November, 2008 3:10:52 PM Subject: Re: Forty Acres Gabrielle, to my ears even your terms "son of an african chief, went to rul= ing class school in hawaii" rock the White House. Spinning in the huge drum of hope-- Mairead >>> welford@HAWAII.EDU 11/08/08 12:34 AM >>> i have been thinking about that quite a bit, yes.=C2=A0 it's not his geneal= ogy at all.=C2=A0 son of an african chief, went to ruling class school in hawai= i... all adds to the dampness of my celebration.=C2=A0 small bits of hope keep poking me in the ribs but not very hard.=C2=A0 g Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Fri, 7 Nov 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > Not to be a wet blanket, but does anyone notice the irony in the fact tha= t Obama is not a descendent of the people Walcott is talking about in this = poem? Some lovely ideas in the images, though. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: Daniel Godston To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 3:25:16 PM Subject: Forty Acres O Forty Acres: a poem for Barack Obama from Nobel winner Derek Walcott Out of the turmoil emerges one emblem, an engraving =E2=80=94 a young Negro at dawn in straw hat and overalls, an emblem of impossible prophecy, a crowd dividing like the furrow which a mule has ploughed, parting for their president: a field of snow-flecked cotton forty acres wide, of crows with predictable omens that the young ploughman ignores for his unforgotten cotton-haired ancestors, while lined on one branch, is a tense court of bespectacled owls and, on the field's receding rim =E2=80=94 a gesticulating scarecrow stamping with rage at him. The small plough continues on this lined page beyond the moaning ground, the lynching tree, the tornado's black vengeance, and the young ploughman feels the change in his veins, heart, muscles, tendons, till the land lies open like a flag as dawn's sure light streaks the field and furrows wait for the sower From=20The New York Times Online November 5, 2008 The West Indies poet Derek Walcott, winner of the 1992 Nobel Prize for Literature, writes exclusively for The Times to mark the election of Barack= Obama as President http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/ar= ticle5088429.ece =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check guideline= s & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 21:20:22 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: on Walcott and Obama In-Reply-To: <116DC69D-7602-4F31-946A-1BCE7F989BCF@earthlink.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE dear tisa, thanks. the point for me is not really whether obama is black enough or where his roots are (though i've talked about that, it's been to try and point out how outside working class experience he is, not how black or non-black he is). it's more where his allegiances lie, what he has had to do and say to win this presidency and how this will affect what he can do in the future. someone said, i think about the money he's had to raise to win this election, that we can rejoice in his winning, but the system is not about to change--the system which forced him to rely on corporate support and to bow to AIPAC. and like bill clinton, there are those the ruling elites pick up and out, educate them to join them. instead of bringing in universal healthcare, the clintons turned right around and gave us NAFTA. but we want to believe and are more likely to be hoodwinked by someone we love than someone as easy to hate as george w. bush. both carter and clinton were murderous to hundreds of thousands of people while in office. that's the system. i'm sad. gabe _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Sun, 9 Nov 2008, Tisa Bryant wrote: > Thank you, Susan, for stating the obvious. > Further, Obama is literally African American. No hyphen, in terms of > immediate genealogy. > Derek Walcott is absolutely of the Americas, and the African diaspora, > just as my Barbadian family is. Pause and consider all the West > Indian folks folded up into the "African-American" category in this > country. > The rigidity of the discussion of lineage, heritage, genealogy, here, > prior to your message, Susan, is surprisingly limited, essentialist, > and despairing, recalling all the nonsense about whether Obama is > "black enough." > What stuns me (though it shouldn't) is the insistence on defining > African-American identity in such rigid terms while maintaining > whiteness as an absolutely nebulous necessity that's separate from > everything and everyone else, hovering above and shadowing genealogy, > culpability, and history, particularly the history of the process that > made Africans American in the first place. It's the same process that > made various Europeans American, but, if "visibly lucky," hid the > "taint" of the process from the skin, but not from the soul. I'd like > to think that all the white people who voted for Obama either already > understand and accept the burden of history that has always and > rightfully belonged to them and can now either publicly stop faking > the funk, or are now ready to take some steps towards being real about > privilege, race, racism. I'd like to think that all the white people > who voted for Obama did so to (maybe only symbolically) own up to all > the not-surprisingly race-based disparities in our system which was > built on slavery and disparity, accept that many people, white people, > rigorously assimilated colored people, benefit from this system > whether they like it or not, whether they're sorry or not. Once these > admissions can be voiced and dealt with instead of brainily wormed > around, guiltily whined about, or totally shirked as a responsibility, > once the burden of understanding and disassembling a woefully race- > obsessed culture is shifted to all shoulders (er, like the burden of > these racialized stereotypes of who's more homophobic, or religiously > conservative), maybe once we have some real conversations about > whiteness instead of always harping on blackness, we can do some real > self-reflexive work towards social change, and clearly, Obama won't be > able to make this happen alone, even if he serves as many terms as > FDR. This quibbling about Walcott's poem, sadly, or the unexamined > perpetuation of stereotypes and placement of burden re: Prop 8, says > something else about that readiness for even the conversation, never > mind the work and the sacrifice, but, I hope, only says something > about a few. > > TLB > ________________________________________________________ > I believe that all shapes, all surfaces and lines and shading, all > aspects of design evoke emotions by associations=97with traditional > shapes of our own culture, with the proportions, surfaces of the human > body, with shapes and movements in nature...[It is] in our=97the > designers'=97power to talk to and play with the emotional responses of > our audiences, just as musicians do. > =09=09=09Eva Zeisel, 2000 > > On Nov 9, 2008, at 00:36 AM, Susan Webster Schultz wrote: > > > If Obama is not African American in the traditional sense, neither > > is Walcott. > > But read Walcott's long poem about spending time in Little Rock, > > Arkansas, and > > read Obama's memoir about growing up in Hawai`i and then moving to > > South > > Side, Chicago. It's not just where they come from, it's how others > > treated them that > > matters. Both men know their (various) genealogies and can deploy > > them ably. > > Obama's victory speech subsumed King's rhetoric into a larger > > field. Yes, he's > > an American politician; no he's not going change America utterly. > > But what > > a sea-change it still is! And how wonderful to see the Bush years > > repudiated, finally. > > > > Susan > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.htm= l > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:38:40 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: bo In-Reply-To: <523737.79852.qm@web56905.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Well, no. The Conservatives in Canada are still to the left of the Democrats in the USA. You have to say yes, there have been good words coming from parts of the western world for the post-election USA. But we have to remember that in most of the western world Barrack Obama would be to the right of centre. gb On Nov 6, 2008, at 11:28 PM, Paul Nelson wrote: > Ah, George is just pissed his Prime Minister (Harper) is to the > right of the incoming USAmerican President. When's Canada going to > move into the 21st century already? Sheesh! > > Paul > > Paul E. Nelson > > Global Voices Radio > SPLAB! > American Sentences > Organic Poetry > Poetry Postcard Blog > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: George Bowering > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 12:02:35 PM > Subject: Re: bo > > Well, as I said a few months ago, > finally, the differences wont be that high. > We will still have a US president. > I dont think he will stop the anti-Cuban blockade. > I dont think he will get the bombers and shooters out of > Afghanistan and Iraq. > I think that before his four years are up he will bomb or invade at > least one small country. > I dont expect universal health care. > The wall along the Mexican border will not come down. > The CIA will still operate Colombia. > etc > > It does feel a little nice, though. > > Geo Bowering > No additives. > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > George Satisfied with his undergarments. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:02:12 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Joan Larkin & Sandy Florian at Small Press Traffic 11/14/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ************************************************ Small Press Traffic is thrilled to present: Joan Larkin and Sandy Florian Friday, November 14, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. Timken Lecture Hall Refreshments will be served Join us! Joan Larkin's My Body: New and Selected Poems received the Publishing Triangle's 2008 Audre Lorde Award. David Ulin of the Los Angeles Times has called Larkin's voice "unsentimental, ruthless and clear-eyed=85. This is poetry without pity, in which despair leads not to degradation but to a kind of grace." Her previous books include Housework, A Long Sound, Sor Juana's Love Poems (translated with Jaime Manrique), and Cold River, winner of a Lambda Award. Larkin co-founded Out & Out Books during the feminist literary explosion of the seventies and co- edited the groundbreaking anthologies Amazon Poetry and Lesbian Poetry with Elly Bulkin and Gay and Lesbian Poetry in Our Time with Carl Morse. Her collection A Woman Like That was nominated for Publishing Triangle and Lambda nonfiction prizes in 2000. Larkin teaches in Drew University's low-residency MFA program in Poetry and Poetry in Translation and will be Wichita State University's Spring '09 Visiting Poet. Sandy Florian is the author of Telescope (Action Books, 2006), 32 Pedals & 47 Stops (Tarpaulin Sky Press, 2007), The Tree of No (Action Books, 2008), and Of Wonderland & Waste (the launching Sidebrow Press, 2009). She lives and works in San Francisco. Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to current SPT members and CCA faculty, staff, and students. There's no better time to join SPT! Check out: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin). Directions & map: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/directions.htm We'll see you Fridays! _______________________________ Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org www.smallpresstraffic.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:08:23 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The What-If MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed (written under zero sleep, apologies, but there's 'something here') The What-If http://www.alansondheim.org/ layout jpgs The last theoretical, what to do when exhausted to the point of trembling or shuddering, unchecked for reason, false grammar, confusion: Vaihinger and Bentham both developed the concept of fictions or the as-if in relation to the real: as if the perceived real were real, as if reifi- cation were the state of things - as if the real were within the simile and subjunctive. The what-if simultaneously doubles and reduces the as-if: Doubles, since it proposes an alternative branching or possible world which is an as-if within the as-if of th real - and reduces, since a fictionalized as-if (that is, the as-if as fiction) branched into the aegis of a dominant fiction no longer subjunctive - the what-if as production or temporal process creates a fiction without split - no longer 'as-if X were real within a perceived world that is necessarily split,' but an X which is all the real there is within a generated world or simulacrum. The what-if simultaneously quadruples and collapses: Quadruples, since the epistemology splits and what is real has also divided - and collapses, since the fiction is ontologically degree-zero; one might also approach this in terms of codes and replaced or augmented codes, or replaced or augmented scripts or objects, therefore basic operations of annihilation, creation, displacement, condensation, substitution, branching and collapse. The what-if does nothing and everything: Nothing, since ontology remains as before, and the model - for that is what we are introducing - utilizes the same fundamental rues, protocols, codes, and principles - and every- thing, since what occurs is the construct of a new universe, related to the old, but with a modification, however small. The what-if places the world within which an enunciation is made, within the subjunctive; it is always a time-dependent process. Any real or virtual movement within real or virtual worlds is a time- dependent process. But what-if is a movement with a diacritical mark or curlicue. The mark need not be within the real or virtual world; it may be within the world of the spectator. From the outside, a change is created within the gamespace. The rules within the gamespace are the same as before. A change is made from without to within. A demarcation occurs, a separation of the gamespace into before and after. Gamespace is always already before and after; the separation occurs on a meta-level. The separation is semiotic and the construction of a semiotic. The separation is a figure of speech. There is speaking within and speaking without; a model might insist on these distinctions: go from real through virtual through channel through virtual through real. Of course what is real is virtual and what is virtual is real. Of course the channel is simultaneously real and virtual; one might argue that the channel is the diacritical mark, the demarcation itself. The demarcation may be fuzzy. The change from X to X' may be sufficiently complex as to prohibit or occlude a transformation. A transformation may occur - the result of a what-if process - without being noticed; there may be no notification or a misplaced or misrecognized notification. So what-if implies an impending modification within a sememe from without; it splits from itself, constructs on a meta-level, a semiotic which breaks through and within the discursive. The transformation within the real virtual, from X to X' is always already sutured; the break, again, occurs within the subject hirself outside of, or constructing an outside-of, the gamespace. Needless to say the what-if may be nothing more than conversational, i.e. what if the sky were green? It may or may not result in a process applied from without to an ostensible subject. The ostensible subject, gamespace, world, etc. may appear, from without, broken or of interest or anomalous or cohering or 'the same as before' within the epistemological limits of whatever transformations are already going on. The ostensible subject is the subject of the subject applying the what-if, that is, the external subject, placed as well, reflexively perhaps, within the subjunctive. Whether or not anything is 'really' carried out. The what-if, then; is always already a thought-experiment as well, no matter what happens later or what happens reflexively, or even within the case where nothing happens at all. One might say that the human project implies thrownness into and through- out the what-if on a continuous basis, that everything and nothing is happening, that this happening is a model for human existence and behavior. And in this light, a model perhaps of every organic existence and behavior - but one might well ask if all organisms are capable of the subjunctive in the sense used here? I would say no, that the subjunctive implies something which, if not uniquely human, at least implies an intelligence organized according to a just-so, which is rarely found otherwise in the world. Roughly, it has to do with stewardship and dominion as well, placing the world we witness, real or virtual or worlding, under the subjunctive: to be human is to live within the semiotic of the subjunctive. And here, within a specified virtual world, one carries out experiments telling or foretelling, floundered and foundered on the subjunctive - this these experiments might be taken as fundamental as well to any human project, if such there be. Perhaps this virtual world lacks a sense of, lacks the catastrophic; perhaps it is this lack which permits the what-if a discursive and reified operation. Perhaps, only just at our moment and in this configuration, perhaps nothing more. | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 04:23:47 -0800 Reply-To: afieled@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Didi Menendez & Christopher Rizzo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out excellent new work from Didi Menendez and Christopher Rizzo on PF= S Post: =A0 http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com =A0 Thanks/Best Wishes, Adam=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 06:47:37 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Eric Elshtain Subject: New Beard of Bees Chapbook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beard of Bees Press is pleased to note that that the link below will direct you to our latest offering: http://www.beardofbees.com/richey.html Best, Eric E. Eric Elshtain Editor Beard of Bees Press http://www.beardofbees.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:11:37 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: another... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In addition to Studs Terkel, whom we lost last week, Miriam Makeba... ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:33:54 -0800 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: on Walcott and Obama In-Reply-To: <719db60d0811091051o6d70935ag9a458bf748cbfc57@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe that all shapes, all surfaces and lines and shading, all > aspects of design evoke emotions by associations=97with traditional > shapes of our own culture, with the proportions, surfaces of the human > body, with shapes and movements in nature...[It is] in our=97the > designers'=97power to talk to and play with the emotional responses of > our audiences, just as musicians do.=A0=A0=A0=20 > =A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 Eva Zeisel, 2000 > I like this quote. It rings 'the bell' for me with the very recent experien= ce of 'witnessing' the current show of Marin Puryear at SFMOMA. His sculptu= re - all in multiple kinds of wood - is constantly in search of a kind of a= container, the extraordinary shapes of which often go to a maximum point o= f tension between expression and repression. Without being obviously refere= ntial the shapes hint at diverse cultural sources (tribal, Arab, Puritan, e= tc.) on the edge of collision. My literary connection with the work would b= e the metaphysical conceit, say as of John Donne, "the violent yoking toget= her of opposites" into a whole. Astonishing stuff.=A0 (Off the cuff, in a d= ifferent manner, I would say Ornette Colman has been another master of wres= tling together global strands of music, also employing the humor you can al= so find in Puryear's work.=20 Frankly, it's way to early, contextually and otherwise to predict how Obama= - as much as he can - will "sculpt" this Presidency in relationship to the= rest us, including the entire globe.=A0 (Pray he not be a total "House Dem= ocrat."!)=A0 In terms of race in this country the transition is monumental = - maybe not as monumetal as electing a Native American!=A0 Or a Palestinian= as Prime Minister of Israel.=A0 To think just fifty years ago and less, Bu= ll Connor was sicking dogs on 'Negro' demonstrators, children at that, in B= irmingham, and we were practically begging President Kennedy to Federally i= ntervene (let alone a practically infinite list of other racial atrocities)= .=A0 Not that all of this stuff will eradicated instantly, or anytime soon.= =A0 But the election of Obama has released a major piece of hope and joy. H= ow this country's deeply fragmented whole proceeds is the new adventure. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ --- On Sun, 11/9/08, carol dorf wrote: From: carol dorf Subject: Re: on Walcott and Obama To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 10:51 AM I think young people have an easier time living in a world without such essentialist ideas of racial identity. A biracial cousin of my husband's (he's white) used to say that she was two-tone in high school. When I was giving the PSATs to a group of 10th graders in the bay area, a number of kids said "I'm mixed, what do I put," when forced to choose between African-American and White. While the school I teach at is at times very racially divided, at other times the boundaries between categories seem fluid. Carol On 11/9/08, Tisa Bryant wrote: > Thank you, Susan, for stating the obvious. > Further, Obama is literally African American. No hyphen, in terms of > immediate genealogy. > Derek Walcott is absolutely of the Americas, and the African diaspora, > just as my Barbadian family is. Pause and consider all the West > Indian folks folded up into the "African-American" category in this > country. > The rigidity of the discussion of lineage, heritage, genealogy, here, > prior to your message, Susan, is surprisingly limited, essentialist, > and despairing, recalling all the nonsense about whether Obama is > "black enough." > What stuns me (though it shouldn't) is the insistence on defining > African-American identity in such rigid terms while maintaining > whiteness as an absolutely nebulous necessity that's separate from > everything and everyone else, hovering above and shadowing genealogy, > culpability, and history, particularly the history of the process that > made Africans American in the first place. It's the same process that > made various Europeans American, but, if "visibly lucky," hid the > "taint" of the process from the skin, but not from the soul.=20 I'd like > to think that all the white people who voted for Obama either already > understand and accept the burden of history that has always and > rightfully belonged to them and can now either publicly stop faking > the funk, or are now ready to take some steps towards being real about > privilege, race, racism. I'd like to think that all the white people > who voted for Obama did so to (maybe only symbolically) own up to all > the not-surprisingly race-based disparities in our system which was > built on slavery and disparity, accept that many people, white people, > rigorously assimilated colored people, benefit from this system > whether they like it or not, whether they're sorry or not. Once these > admissions can be voiced and dealt with instead of brainily wormed > around, guiltily whined about, or totally shirked as a responsibility, > once the burden of understanding and disassembling a woefully race- > obsessed culture is shifted to all shoulders (er, like the burden of > these racialized stereotypes of who's more homophobic, or religiously > conservative), maybe once we have some real conversations about > whiteness instead of always harping on blackness, we can do some real > self-reflexive work towards social change, and clearly, Obama won't be > able to make this happen alone, even if he serves as many terms as > FDR. This quibbling about Walcott's poem, sadly, or the unexamined > perpetuation of stereotypes and placement of burden re: Prop 8, says > something else about that readiness for even the conversation, never > mind the work and the sacrifice, but, I hope, only says something > about a few. > > TLB > ________________________________________________________ > I believe that all shapes, all surfaces and lines and shading, all > aspects of design evoke emotions by associations=97with traditional > shapes of our own culture, with the proportions, surfaces of the human > body, with shapes and movements in nature...[It is] in our=97the > designers'=97power to talk to and play with the emotional responses of > our audiences, just as musicians do.=09 > =09=09=09Eva Zeisel, 2000 > > On Nov 9, 2008, at 00:36 AM, Susan Webster Schultz wrote: > >> If Obama is not African American in the traditional sense, neither >> is Walcott. >> But read Walcott's long poem about spending time in Little Rock, >> Arkansas, and >> read Obama's memoir about growing up in Hawai`i and then moving to >> South >> Side, Chicago. It's not just where they come from, it's how others >> treated them that >> matters. Both men know their (various) genealogies and can deploy >> them ably. >> Obama's victory speech subsumed King's rhetoric into a larger >> field. Yes, he's >> an American politician; no he's not going change America utterly. >> But what >> a sea-change it still is! And how wonderful to see the Bush years >> repudiated, finally. >> >> Susan >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:18:00 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo E-Newsletter 11.10.08-11.16.08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 LITERARY BUFFALO 11.10.08-11.16.08 MEMBERSHIP HAS ITS PRIVILEGES=21 Join Just Buffalo today to take part in our monthly member-only events, inc= luding this one: WESTERN NEW YORK BOOK ARTS COLLABORATIVE RECEPTION Tour and reception of new Western New York Book Arts Collaborative space Meet founders Rich Kegler and Carima El-Behairy Try your hand at a Vandercook Press with Chris Fritton Thursday, November 13, 5:30 PM=CB=87 Wine and cheese served WNYBAC Building, Corner of Washington and East Mohawk Streets downtown Members are encouraged to bring their friends to see what Just Buffalo and = the WNYBAC are all about. Non-members and lapsed members can join or re-join at the event=21 Or join online: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml ___________________________________________________________________________ NEW SERIES ANNOUNCEMENT JUST BUFFALO LITERARY CENTER & TALKING LEAVES BOOKS ANNOUNCE =22SHORT STORY= MASTERS -- A LITERARY SALON=22 Beginning November 18, 2008 Just Buffalo Literary Center and Talking Leaves= Books will collaborate on a new monthly series, =22Short Story Masters -- = A Literary Salon.=22 The inaugural event for Module I: Alice Munro's Stor= ies begins at 6:30 p.m. on Tuesday, 11/18 at Talking Leaves Books, 3158 Mai= n St., Buffalo. Hosted by fiction writer Greg Gerke, these one-hour events= will continue, taking place each month on the third Tuesday at 6:30 p.m. a= t Talking Leaves Books Main St. location. ___________________________________________________________________________ EVENTS THIS WEEK Visit the Literary Buffalo calendar at www.justbuffalo.org for more detaile= d info on these events. All events free and open to the pubic unless other= wise noted. 11.10.08 Wordflight/Crane Library Dennis Maloney Poetry Reading/Tanka Writing Workshop Monday, November 10, 7:00 PM Crane Library, 633 Elmwood Ave. Talking Leaves...Books/Jewish Community Book Fair Laura Manischewitz Alpern Reading/signing for: Manischewitz, the Matzo Family Monday, November 10, 7:30 PM JCC of Greater Buffalo, 2640 N. Forest Rd., Getzville 11.11.08 Exhibit X Fiction =7C Prose Matthew Derby and Vijay Seshadri Fiction and Non-Fiction reading Tuesday, November 11, 8:00 PM Hallwalls Cinema, 341 Delaware Ave. =40 Tupper 11.12.08 Rooftop Poetry Club at Buffalo State College Kim Chinquee and Alessandro Porco Poetry Reading Wednesday, November 12, 4:30 PM E.H. Butler Library, Int'l Student Area, 3rd Floor Earth's Daughter's Gray Hair Reading Series George Hole and Efrayim (Fred Barry) Levenson Poetry Reading Wednesday, November 12, 7:30 PM Hallwalls Cinema, 341 Delaware Ave. =40 Tupper 11.13.08 Canisius Contemporary Writers Series Rishi Reddi Fiction Reading Thursday, November 13, 7:00 PM Grupp Fireside Lounge, 80 Hughes, Canisius College Rust Belt Books R.M. Vaughan, Richard Owens, and jose felipe alvergue Triple book launch and reading Thursday, November 13, 7:30 PM Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. 11.14.08 Oscar Silverman Reading at UB Alistair Reid Poetry Reading Friday, November 14, 8:00 PM 250 Baird Hall, SUNY at Buffalo, North Campus Just Buffalo/Interdisciplinary Performance Series Michael Meldrum and Friends Open Ended Question: Music, Poetry, Politics Friday, November 14, 8:00 PM Hallwalls Cinema, 341 Delaware Ave. =40 Tupper 11.15.08 Rust Belt Books Paul Krehbiel Book Release for Shades of Justice Saturday, November 15, 2008 =40 7:00 PM Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. 11.16.08 Talking Leaves...Books/Jewish Community Book Fair Maggie Anton Reading/Signing for Rashi's Daughter Sunday, November 16, 2:30 PM Temple Beth Zion, 700 Sweet Home Road ___________________________________________________________________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBER WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP http://www.justbuffalo.org/docs/Writer_Critique_Group.pdf ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i= mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:08:08 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Re: on Walcott and Obama -- Prez Carries Walcott In-Reply-To: <930950.17498.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "But it appears he still has time for a little poetry.=20 Three days after winning the presidential election, Barack Obama was spotte= d=20 in Chicago carrying a book of poems by Derek Walcott, the West Indies Nob= el=20 laureate." Continued here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/barackobama/34015= 42/Barack-Obama-still-has-time-for-a-little-poetry.html#article Amy p.s.=A0 Speaking of hope, Will.i.am composed a new song post-election, "It'= s a New Day" -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DRHWByjoQrR8 Hear his pre-election diddy, "Yes, We Can" here -- http://www.youtube.com/w= atch?v=3D2fZHou18Cdk _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:08:06 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: bo In-Reply-To: <7D3C1D0A-FB41-4718-A433-EDCC75A36063@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would have to disagree with you, George. I would say that the Canadian government is slightly to the right of the Democrats but this is because of the minority status. With Harper being Bush's sidekick and with Harper exercising rigid control over the Conservative Party, I'd say that Harper would like the Conservative Party to be as right-wing as the Republicans - and he will do so if he ever gets a majority which, blessedly, this time around was prevented through the wisdom of Canadian voters. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of George Bowering Sent: November 10, 2008 1:39 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: bo Well, no. The Conservatives in Canada are still to the left of the Democrats in the USA. You have to say yes, there have been good words coming from parts of the western world for the post-election USA. But we have to remember that in most of the western world Barrack Obama would be to the right of centre. gb On Nov 6, 2008, at 11:28 PM, Paul Nelson wrote: > Ah, George is just pissed his Prime Minister (Harper) is to the > right of the incoming USAmerican President. When's Canada going to > move into the 21st century already? Sheesh! > > Paul > > Paul E. Nelson > > Global Voices Radio > SPLAB! > American Sentences > Organic Poetry > Poetry Postcard Blog > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: George Bowering > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 12:02:35 PM > Subject: Re: bo > > Well, as I said a few months ago, > finally, the differences wont be that high. > We will still have a US president. > I dont think he will stop the anti-Cuban blockade. > I dont think he will get the bombers and shooters out of > Afghanistan and Iraq. > I think that before his four years are up he will bomb or invade at > least one small country. > I dont expect universal health care. > The wall along the Mexican border will not come down. > The CIA will still operate Colombia. > etc > > It does feel a little nice, though. > > Geo Bowering > No additives. > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > George Satisfied with his undergarments. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 03/07/2008 7:19 PM ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:08:07 -0800 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: bo In-Reply-To: <7D3C1D0A-FB41-4718-A433-EDCC75A36063@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii & so it goes... how much change is possible within the 2 party system? Especially in the States where both parties have the deepest pockets, open to all bidders. --- On Mon, 11/10/08, George Bowering wrote: From: George Bowering Subject: Re: bo To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 2:38 AM Well, no. The Conservatives in Canada are still to the left of the Democrats in the USA. You have to say yes, there have been good words coming from parts of the western world for the post-election USA. But we have to remember that in most of the western world Barrack Obama would be to the right of centre. gb On Nov 6, 2008, at 11:28 PM, Paul Nelson wrote: > Ah, George is just pissed his Prime Minister (Harper) is to the right of the incoming USAmerican President. When's Canada going to move into the 21st century already? Sheesh! > > Paul > > Paul E. Nelson > > Global Voices Radio > SPLAB! > American Sentences > Organic Poetry > Poetry Postcard Blog > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: George Bowering > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 12:02:35 PM > Subject: Re: bo > > Well, as I said a few months ago, > finally, the differences wont be that high. > We will still have a US president. > I dont think he will stop the anti-Cuban blockade. > I dont think he will get the bombers and shooters out of Afghanistan and Iraq. > I think that before his four years are up he will bomb or invade at least one small country. > I dont expect universal health care. > The wall along the Mexican border will not come down. > The CIA will still operate Colombia. > etc > > It does feel a little nice, though. > > Geo Bowering > No additives. > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > George Satisfied with his undergarments. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:23:20 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: another... In-Reply-To: <49184F29.1000103@umn.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII oh, aye, both very big losses. g Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Mon, 10 Nov 2008, Maria Damon wrote: > In addition to Studs Terkel, whom we lost last week, Miriam Makeba... > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:01:47 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: David MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and e-= mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, stranded in= Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. Needless to= say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you get= that e-mail, be warned. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:54:51 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: James Liddy, 1934 - 2008 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon=2C 10 Nov 2008 09:47:53 -0800 From: david.chirot@gmail.com To: davidbchirot@hotmail.com Subject: Fwd: James Liddy=2C 1934 - 2008 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Chirot Date: Sun=2C Nov 9=2C 2008 at 1:51 PM Subject: James Liddy=2C 1934 - 2008 To: poetics@listerv.buffalo.edu (i sent this yesterday but the delivery system says something abt delivery = failure so trying again--in the meantime i learned James already back in Ir= eland for his resting place--) Many thanks for posting this Stephen=2C especially as it has news of days i= n SF. =20 I found your note just as about to post foto of James at blog and other pla= ces--Kent Johnson wrote me very early in morning James was gone. Actually James had a poem about Silliman=2C but would be indiscreet t= o quote it! I made a tribute at my blog with a poem and foto and some other things--Spi= cer--and a dedication from James-(in which he calls me the "son of God"--th= ankfully not the Son!---but have much more to unearth--in his own hand--poe= ms and notes-- James died on Tuesday and is in Ireland already--to be buried there--but th= ere will the this Tuesday i beleive also a funeral as it were here in Milwa= ukee-- i have been thinking much of his companion Jim Chapson=2C his long time com= panion=2C also=2C himself a very fine poet-- http://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com/2008/11/james-liddy-1934-2008-for-j= im-chapson.html James was a great inspiring legendary figure in Milwaukee=2C holding court = at Axel's and traveling about the city to readings and events accompanied b= y his young admirers poetic and otherwise. He was one of the rare persons = with whom one could discuss Jack Spicer=2C Duncan=2C so many others--and al= so Burroughs=2C Kerouac=2C the Beats-- and then drink it in as he let flow the full flood of his Irish heritage in= poesy and song-- He had one of the keenest rapier wits=2C a master of the annihilating epigr= am--improvised-- on the spot--shot with deadly aim-- He was an erotic poet=2C a gay poet=2C a queen=2C a ruminator on matter rel= igious that turned sexual-- In person and poetry=2C the moods and ideas shift rapidly--lep and flow-jump like bubbles in beer--as the series of topics and moods wil be quickly by turn swwet=2C soft=2C coy=2C catty=2C caricatural=2C historic= al=2C rhetorical=2C pedagogical=2C blasphemous=2C thick with airy allusions=2C paaionte with rage or laughter and grief=2C and just as much=2C celbrating a giddy shallowness of surface=2C a delight in a knd of vernishing of a corrupted veneer--or=2C indeed=2C from time to time=2C of a genuine verneer= -- The heroic and humorous are ever close to hand=2C and as ever=2C the sexual and erotic=2C the strange possibilities of a language simultaneously religious and deeply=2C almost obscenely blasphemous--which makes its own form of personal sacred-- Whatever room or outdoors he walked into=2C he warmed it with his presence=2C bringing with him a glow of energy=2C humor and a sense of poetry as both the memorializer and creator of Mythic Events. A small exchange of an evening of fading light among the bare spring trees-walking along--would become transposed into a scene presented later with the beauty =2C comedy=2C tragedy--of Myth=2C the kinds of Myth o= ut of Joyce and Yeats-- James was inspiring because he'd come to America out of a deep love of jack Spicer--and had to see where Spicer had lived=2C know the people he had known--in as many ways as possible--to be sure--the Biblical knowing and conversational--archeological--poetical--freindships--letters-- It hadn't mattered to him that Spicer had died a few years earlier--he told me he fully expected the presence of Spicer to be there=2C completely alive--and that the traces and ghosts of him --would be found walking about=2C or at a bar--beside a radio--not dead at all-- The idea of a pilgrimage directly into what remained of the poet's life --in the persons of his friends=2C--in the sites still extant in which he moved--al this was a sign to others of the making of the impossible the reality of one's life--the contact with a dead poet turning one's life around--a pivot of the hip swinging one round the corner of the bar-into the arms of a different future-- and so straddling worlds--from Ireland to SF to Milwaukee--and other realms which he would hear the voices and musics of--and the scenes appearing out of history=2C memory=2C speech-- he would present one continually with poetry as the very life within the blood of one's existence=2C the air one breathed and the ground one walked-- he also kept one sane=2C i believe--in so many ways--i know he often did so for me=2C as his outrageous punning and digressions=2C asides=2C comments=2C passing back and forth of scribbled notes on scraps of paper during readings with one--kept alive the spirit of the lunacy of language in the midst of so much humorlessness--dread tedium-- i recall the huge festival at the Irish Cultural Center when he was given an award i can't recall the name of=2C it has to do with the presentation of one's place in a kind of throne like chair--a very high cultural honor--and bands from Ireland were there=2C and some films--and dancers--and unlimited free Guinness=2C tons of food--and James walking about quietly stunned--or holding court--by turns-- and other times with George Stanley visiting--gathered in the German bar--around a huge table--and people passing poems about and talking--telling tales--and sharing poems=2C and some being written right there on the spot-- James lived being a poet as a form of rebellious royalty--an appealing charm of the punk gutter commingling itself with a sense of aristocracy--like Johnny Rotten/Lydon saying he had copied his stage act from Olivier's manic jeering=2C ironic and sneering portrayal of Shakespeare's Richard the Third as he had seen it in the film version-- so indeed if one juxtaposes them--it is so!--films of Olivier and Johnny--bobbing and screaming=2C eyes pinwheeled into the stare of amphetamine eyes--yet al done by nervous energy alone--sheer force of manic=2C crazed will-- James embodied these disparate energies an played them like a fiddle=2C creating different dances in quick succession=2C thrusting and parrying with his self mocking laughter as though a shadow that had gotten out of line with the music--fought back with the admonishing self that claimed to be in time with it-- rebelling against the monarch who was trying to establish his reign--and here came the outrageous upstarts--James and his sidekicks--to throw out the very king that he himself had been a moment before-- or standing before an audience and reciting his own and others' poems in a voice so close to a murmur=2C and almost deathly last breathing--that the audience leaned in closer and closer=2C became ever more quiet a possible-to catch the patterns of breath which held in their embraces the words as they faded out of distinguishable from--and joined their breathy articulation with the flows or stillness of the air-- It was always an honor and a joy to meet with James--he always made one feel immediately you had joined him in a conspiracy--a kind of ally in the general mayhem--and knowing one might have different overthrows in mind=2C al the same sharing the urge to overthrow-- The last time i saw him was a few weeks ago=2C on the bus--as he was getting on=2C he caught sight of me--and gesturing to the seated crowd facing him--swept an arm towards me and told everyone aboard--"You have in your presence David=2C the Good Black French Shepard=2C the Black Sheep who guides the young flocks with his Dark French kind soul of the poetes of the damned." =20 He sat and talked away of new poems and plans and the latest events of the morning=2C adventures on the way to the bus=2C the look of the sky--and all too soon=2C time for him to get off--a quick remark about the construction going on=2C the ruination of old bricks--and he was gone--and as always=2C his voice lingered in the air after him--a music and poetry and presence that keeps on playing--and always will-- An honor and a joy to know this poet who made poetry so alive=2C made it li= fe--and lived it so that others would understand this-- On Fri=2C Nov 7=2C 2008 at 11:03 AM=2C Stephen Vincent wrote: For those out of the Ron Silliman loop=2C=20 James Liddy=2C the long resident of America=2C Irish poet=2C has passed awa= y. (1934 - 2008). He came to teach at San Francisco State College in the late Sixties where I= knew him=2C partly as a neighbor. He held classes at his home during the S= F State Strike - in which I would occasionally sit-in. It was the place whe= re I first met Ron Silliman=2C a student then. James was totally enamored of the fresh legacy of Jack Spicer (d. 1965) whi= le becoming good friend of Graham Mackintosh=2C the White Rabbit Press prin= ter and close associate of Spicer. Sadly=2C or to the benefit of Milwauk= ee=2C James left the City in the 70's. A warm=2C lively gregarious spirit t= otally devoted to the realms of Poetry - much devoted to his friends - muc= h to be missed=2C I am sure. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious emai= l. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safe= ty_112008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:57:38 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Miriam Makeba Singer & Activist Banned By Apartheid Has Died at 76--NY Times In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon=2C 10 Nov 2008 09:48:34 -0800 From: david.chirot@gmail.com To: davidbchirot@hotmail.com Subject: Fwd: Miriam Makeba Singer & Activist Banned By Apartheid Has Died = at 76--NY Times INTERNATIONAL / AFRICA=20 =20 | November 11=2C 2008 Miriam Makeba=2C Singer=2C Dies at 76 By ALAN COWELL Ms. Makeba was a South African singer whose voice stirred hopes of freedom in her own country even though her music was formally banned by the apartheid authorities she struggled against. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/world/africa/11makeba.html?ei=3D5070&emc= =3Deta The United States supported apartheid in Makeba's homeland and now supports= it in another State=2C which had also supported and armed the apartheid r= egime in South Africa. May there be hope that the changes inside the USA may be extended in its po= licies to peoples around the world=2C rather than supporting the continuanc= e of enforced examples of the Bantustan existence Miriam Makeba worked tir= elessly and beautifully to put an end to=2C everywhere. May the USA's recent change=2C so much hailed=2C be indeed a real change=2C= in actions and not simply in words=2C and a real example that is extended = to all people=2C and not only to some. Otherwise=2C all over again=2C the = US will be turning its example of hope=2C equality=2C change into that old = familar face=2C that samo samo "American exceptionalism." _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC=2C the Web=2C and your mobile phone with Windows= Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119462413/direct/01/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:58:49 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Roberto Bolano's 2666 Reviewed by Jomathan Lethem (Ny Times) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Chirot Date: Sun=2C Nov 9=2C 2008 at 4:58 AM Subject: Roberto Bolano's 2666 Reviewed by Jomathan Lethem (Ny Times) To: poetics@listerv.buffalo.edu BOOKS / SUNDAY BOOK REVIEW=20 =20 | November 9=2C 2008 The Departed By JONATHAN LETHEM Roberto Bola=F1o's posthumous novel is not only a capstone to his own vaulting ambition=2C but a landmark in what's possible for the form in our increasingly=2C and terrifyingly=2C post-national world. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/09/books/review/Lethem-t.html?ei=3D5070&emc= =3Deta1 _________________________________________________________________ Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious emai= l. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safe= ty_112008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:38:01 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Fw: Civil Unions vs. Marriage -- "Separate But Equal" [Troy & Mark In-Reply-To: <731750.97908.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline here in southern california, many african americans are historically republican because of the legacy of dixiecrat racism (which has a weird history in race politics in LA); I was surprised how many of my neighbors had also converted to catholicism -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:46:55 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Martha Cinader Mims Subject: Open Mic Radio November 11, 8pm PST Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed L&BH Radio Hour Nov. 11 Pamela Fingado and Patricia Zemanek have been regular contributors to =20= Listen & Be Heard Network Arts News. They also both run galleries in =20 El Cerrito CA. Are the Fingado Art Gallery and Eclectix Gallery part =20 of a burgeoning arts movement in El Cerrito? Please join my =20 conversation with Pamela and Patricia as we talk about their holiday =20 exhibitions, the arts scene in El Cerrito, and what it takes to keep =20 the gallery doors open. As always, there is an open mic for poets who want to call in with a =20 poem, and anyone who would like to make an arts event or opportunity =20 announcement or talk about the state of the Arts in general. There =20 will also be some announcements of opportunities for arts =20 professionals and, if time permits, some arts editorialising. But I =20 would rather hear from you! Following are all the details. Wishing you Peace and Poetry martha cinader mims Live internet radio at 8pm, PST on Tuesday night November 11. People can listen to it when it's live, and also the archives later by going to http://www.listenandbeheard.net. When it's live there will be a flashing mic to click on to listen in =20 the blogtalk radio player on the page. Call in phone number: 718-506-1481 while it's live to participate. You don't have to be at a computer to call. You will hear the show on the phone. If they go to the following url: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/listenandbeheard/2008/11/12/LBH-Radio-=20 Hour-Nov-11 you can also join the chat room and try the "click to talk" feature =20 during the live show, for those who have mics and earphones with their computer. A Mosaics Exhibit at Fingado Art Gallery will open on November 14 and =20= closes on Dec. 26, 2008. Featured artists are Karen Pearle and Fuff =20 Tabachnikoff. The artist=92s reception will be open to the public 7:00- 9:00 P.M. on =20= November 14, 2008 in conjunction with The Stockton Avenue Art Stroll. Fingado Art Gallery is open during the holiday season Wed- Saturday =20 11:00 AM =96 6:00 PM. For information call 510 593 9081. 7025 Stockton =20= Ave. Eclectix Gallery Presents: The 50/50 Show Nov. 14th-Dec.28th Come One, Come All =85 To See The Show! Fifty =20 artists exhibiting their works, all priced at fifty bucks! An =20 eclectic mixed media of goodies, ready to buy and take home, right =20 off the walls. No theme, just lots of cool art. When one piece is =20 sold, it will be replaced by a new piece. Be original and give the =20 gift of art this season! Make it an EclectiXmas! Opening reception: =20 November 14th, from 7-10 PM. Live Music, Art & Thou. At Eclectix =20 Gallery, 10082 San Pablo Ave. (at Central Ave.), El Cerrito, Ca 94530 =20= For more info: http://www.eclecti Martha Cinader Mims Listen & Be Heard Network editor@listenandbeheard.net http://www.listenandbeheard.net Get Skype and call me for free. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:15:28 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Evelyn Andrews MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evelyn Andrews Nov 4, 1930 - September 22, 2008 http://vispo.com/mom ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:11:38 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Corretta Scott King said... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think you're really on to something with the Manicheanism of monotheism. The polytheistic Greeks and Romans were much more liberal in their views of sexuality. I'm one who believes people and societies evolve through levels. In religious terms: animism, polytheism, monotheism, deism, agnosticism/atheism. There's a new kind of spirituality, though, that somewhat embraces all these (though obviously more in favor of agnosticism over atheism, if religion is being embraced -- as with Frederick Turner in "Natural Religion", though there is in fact an atheistic version in Stuart Kauffman's "Reinventing the Sacred") in addition to the realities of nature, meaning there is an open acceptance of human beings in their full range and complexities. Now, as for libertarianism, it is certainly against laws when possible. Which means it would be against any law prohibiting marriage, like Prop. 8. Also, libertarianism is very much on the side of civil rights, as civil rights violations were and are primarily legal violations. Prior to the Civil Rights Act, for example, it was state laws which prohibited African-Americans from riding at the front of the bus and going to certain restaurants. In truth, the bus companies as a group didn't care where you sat -- the law was there so that racists could be racists under the law, and wouldn't have to cave to market forces. Libertarians, like myself, are opposed to any sort of restriction on gays serving in the military. It shouldn't be an issue at all. After all, who in their right mind wouldn't have wanted to have had Alexander the Great leading their army? The truth is, and if you look at what they in fact do, it should be clear to anyone, the Democrats fairly consistently use various minority groups to get elected, and then turn around and do nothing to actually benefit those groups. Often they in fact do things to make those groups even more dependent upon them. Of course, the Republicans do the same thing with their groups -- everyone knows a marriage amendment to the Constitution won't ever be passed, but just proposing it makes the Religious Right happy. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: CA Conrad To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2008 12:05:46 PM Subject: Re: Corretta Scott King said... Troy, that was a thoughtful response, and thank you for thinking about it. To be honest I'm not interested in marriage myself, and have many concerns about the institution of marriage for anyone wanting it. However, it's still none of my business if someone wants it, I'm just saying. And yes, you're right about the views many Americans, especially religious Americans of any color have about this idea of homosexuality being a "choice." Cultures with fundamentals of dualistic foundations like monotheism trade "choice" against the formation of belief that two is the best number to shoot from: God and Satan, Male and Female, Black and White, etc. America can't even seem to support values outside of a Democrat and Republican party system. Christianity in particular in American has reductive qualities which marginalize with a world-view from proper biblical points of reference. American colonists were HORRIFIED by the openly bisexual, homosexual, transsexual Native Americans of this early pagan continent. There are Native American nations who had multiple genders, which confused and FREAKED many of the early white Americans. Well, not so much the Scotts and Irish who settled in Appalachia maybe, but certainly the Virginians and the Puritans, even the Quakers. Am I saying we're too entrenched to get out of it? No, I mean look at many European countries who are also steeped in Christianity, they've become more tolerant, but they also forced the issue of progress with governmental intervention and laws. I say this because I'm under the impression that the Libertarian Party is about less governmental intervention. But I admit I know little about that party, but that's the gist I've gotten from them. I'm actually for MORE regulation of all kinds, especially when it comes to civil rights. I'm not believing for a minute that it will make The Haters like queers more, but it will protect queers who want to be productive, contributing citizens if they so choose. Back in the early 90s I heard Bill Clinton give a speech in DC when he was first running for president, it was at some gay pride event, or march, or something. He said, and I remember him clearly saying this, that Yes we should be allowed to be married, have the same rights, etc. He instead gave us the "right" of "Don't Ask Don't Tell" which was tantamount to saying, "No, you're not equal, unless you're a killing machine." But I remember how we all CHEERED and ROARED with excitement when Clinton addressed us in DC. And weeks after he and Gore won The White House I took a lesbian friend of mine to see KD Lang for her birthday, it was Lang's "Ingenue Tour" I believe. But Lang ANNOUNCED from the stage these very same things Clinton promised, and we all CHEERED and ROARED with excitement! And I still remember her saying through a cloud of bubbles (she had a giant bubble-making machine on stage like Lawrence Welk), "I'm so glad Bill's in office!" We all CHEERED and ROARED again. We were literally ecstatic! Little did we know the real Bill Clinton at that time. We were such suckers for his promises at a time when we were SO EXHAUSTED from Reagan/Bush, and hemorrhaging friends and the art world to AIDS. It blew our minds that he would even speak to us. But we were SO duped! He got our votes and promptly dumped us. WORSE than dumping us, MUCH WORSE, that asshole signed the Defense of Marriage Act. Wow! I will always, ALWAYS hate Bill Clinton for that signing! Bill Clinton's legacy of lies is why I'm skeptical of Obama. BUT, I do believe Obama is a better human being than Bill Clinton ever was, even on Clinton's best days. I want Obama to be the man of conscience he appears to be. And I hope he is. But still, saying queers should be allowed to visit their dying partner in the hospital is hardly a step up from what Clinton gave us. Both Biden and Obama used this remark about hospital visitation, and it made me angry. But AT LEAST THEY DIDN'T lie. I mean, neither man promised us things like Clinton, so, I am grateful for that. I'd rather be told up front what to expect, which they gave. Getting our greedy, bloodstained American hands out of Iraq was most important to me when voting. Everyone who voted for Obama had their reasons. Everyone FELT GOOD voting for Obama for their own reasons, and mine was his steadfast claim that Iraq was wrong, was always wrong, and we should get out. I don't care about his gender or the color of his skin, his courage to stand up against the American invasion and occupation of Iraq is what sent me to vote. And I don't use the word "courage" lightly. It takes REAL courage to tell a nation of people that they fucked up. But he did it, and we made him president, so that alone makes me hopeful. CAConrad *HOMOPHOBIA and a Lexicon of Violence: ** http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html* ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:13:37 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ken Chen Subject: This Friday - Kazim Ali, Myung Mi Kim and others at the Asian American Writers' Workshop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The Asian American Writers' Workshop presents Kazim Ali, Myung Mi Kim, Cathy Park Hong, Tan Lin, Warren Liu, and Dorothy Wang Friday, November 14, 7pm A special night featuring Kazim Ali and honoring Myung Mi Kim's Dura Join us for a special night honoring the work of legendary experimental poet Myung Mi Kim and the re-release of her book Dura. The night begins with Kazim Ali, whose The Far Mosque, possesses, in the words of Meena Alexander, "a metaphysical feel ... that renders it fit for our globalized age, a geography underwritten by the loss of fixed abode." Myung Mi Kim reads from Dura, a classic of avant-garde poetics at once formally challenging and politically engaged. Influenced by Theresa Hak Kyung Cha's Dictee, Dura is an investigation of national and personal identity that asks, in the words of Sueyeun Juliette Lee, both what it means to be Korean American and what it means to define space in national terms. After the reading, four prominent Asian American experimental poets--Cathy Park Hong, Tan Lin, Warren Liu, and Dorothy Wang--respond to Dura and Myung's body of work. @ The Workshop 16 West 32nd Street, 10th Floor (btwn Broadway & 5th Avenue) $5 suggested donation; open to the public ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 20:16:36 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?= Subject: Book by Lanny Quarles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline _______________ There's a new book by the poet Lanny Quarles. You will find the ordering information at http://stores.lulu.com/phanero The poetry of Lanny Quarles is thought-provoking, effervescent and chaotic. His riffs and blathers never cease to amaze me. Though very much in the "now" of the times, and the "now" of the contorting of language, his texts are still permeated with a struggle of philosophic ideas balanced by a knowledge of artistic and literary history. Sincerely, S=E9amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:22:44 -0800 Reply-To: jkarmin@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: JOB: Ohio Northern University MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii (this is a forward so please don't respond to me. good luck!) Assistant Professor of Creative Writing (Poetry) and Modern American Literature. Tenure-track or visiting, dependent upon interest and qualifications; start September 2009. Ph.D. preferred, MFA or ABD considered. Student-oriented creative writer with an emphasis on poetry to teach courses in a growing CW major; an interest in media applications helpful. Additional teaching assignments to include modern American literature, first-year writing, sophomore and advanced major and non-major literature courses; teaching load, three courses per quarter. Evidence of superior teaching and strong publications required. Letter of application, ONU application (http://www.onu.edu), vita, transcripts and three letters of recommendation must be received by November 17 for full consideration and possible MLA interviews. Applications will be received until the position is filled. Send to: Eva McManus, Chair, English Department, Ohio Northern University, Ada, Ohio 45810. E-mail: e-mcmanus@onu.edu ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:24:14 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: Corretta Scott King said... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Mark, as much as I respect you I won't agree to the tone of taking Obama's courage from him about this. Yes, you're right he had no vote, but was very vocal, saying all the sane, humane things. John Kerry and Hillary Clinton GAVE Bush everything he needed, along with many others. From listening to Obama talk about the war for some time now I believe, firmly believe, that if HE HAD HAD the vote that he would have NEVER given Bush the OK with the other jerks! There's not a soul who voted for the war who didn't realize that there was NO reason to invade. The entire thing was insane from the beginning. Kerry and Clinton didn't want to rock the boat on the issue. It was hard times for a politician's nerves with the severe nationalistic thunder after 911, a time that called for cool heads and courage to SEE what was real and what was Bush/Cheney greed and plunder at work. Obama hasn't JUST been against the war, he's made clear the vile intent behind it. This idea of him being against the war because it was "safe" for him to be so is wrong in my opinion. It's the very sort of thing Bill Clinton said of Obama when he spoke of the fairy tale that Obama was. But Bill Clinton knew what was at stake, and needed to create a blurr around the margins of the truth, something he's a real pro at. When Obama confronted Hillary Clinton on the issue in the debates there was little she could say since the whole world knew that she was part of the reason for the murderous mess. She and every other senator had A JOB TO DO, and that job was to be the check and the balance against an imperial presidency for war. They failed. They failed us, they failed Iraq, and made the world a much MUCH more dangerous place as a result. It's very strange how Pelosi "removed impeachment from the table" as soon as she received her new position, and SHE was working with a very strong antiwar, anti-Bush platform. But it's no mistake that she did so right after the German government declared that they would hold Rumsfeld for war crimes if he ever stepped foot in Germany. And the Germans waited for Rumsfeld to be cut loose from the Bush cabinet. It's my belief that Pelosi saw the German declaration as one that would spread over the entire group of senators who gave Bush his power if Bush were to be impeached. If Bush were to be brought down on the grounds Pelosi wanted to bring him down on, Kerry, Clinton, and many MANY others would fall with him. AS THEY SHOULD, just like Hitler's supporters. In the end Obama was the ONLY person I could vote for in the primary once Kucinich was out of the race. By the time the primary made it's way to Pennsylvania Kucinich wasn't even on the ballot. I don't like the primary system, and feel that every voter in the country should vote at the same time. I REALLY wanted my vote in the primary to go to Kucinich. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:52:16 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: another... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Maria Damon wrote: <<< << ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:32:09 -0800 Reply-To: ubuweb@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: UbuWeb Subject: B=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F6k=2C_?= Carter, Goldsmith - Bronx Museum, this Sat. Nov 15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable UPCOMING EVENT AT THE BRONX MUSEUM... STREET / LANGUAGE SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 15th 3:00 pm North Building - 2nd Floor Admission: $5.00, free for Bronx Museum members For centuries, the sounds, vernaculars and visuals that populate our cities= ' streets have been sources of undying fascination to artists and writers w= ho see in this plurality not merely a picture of social stratification but = a true testament to the wealth of language. STREET/LANGUAGE will feature poet Kenneth Goldsmith, sound artist Kabir Car= ter, and Vancouver-based writer and performer, Christian B=F6k in a lively = discussion on the role street culture play in their work. The event will cu= lminate in a series of performances by the three participants. For more information about The Bronx Museum of the Arts events, visit http:= //www.bronxmuseum.org The Bronx Museum of the Arts 1040 Grand Concourse Bronx, New York 10456 tel/ 718.681.6000 fax/ 718.681.6181 Getting to The Bronx Museum of the Arts Subway: Take the D or B to the 167 Street / Grand Concourse station. Exit a= t rear of station, walk south along Grand Concourse two blocks. 4 to the 16= 1 Street / Yankee Stadium station. Walk east three blocks to the Grand Conc= ourse, then, walk north four blocks along Grand Concourse to 165th Street. Bus: Take the Bx1, Bx2, or BxM4 Express to 165th St. and Grand Concourse. Museum Hours Thursday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday from 11am - 6 pm. Friday from 11am - 8 pm. Closed Tuesday and Wednesday UbuWeb http://ubu.com=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 01:12:04 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City 52 Print and Online PDF Editions Available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please forward --------------------- Hi all, The print edition of Boog City 52 will be available today. You can read the pdf version now at: http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/bc52.pdf Thanks, David -------------------- Boog City 52, New York City Small Presses Issue The issue features pages put together by four of New York City's =20 finest small presses. It is in conjunction with a Tues. Nov. 25, 6:00 p.m. levy lives event at ACA Galleries, 529 W.20th St., 5th Flr., featuring readers from each =20 of the presses' authors. Inside the issue are pages from the below presses with work from some =20 of their authors: **Farfalla Press --Edmund Berrigan --Anne Waldman **Open 24 Hours --Erica Kaufman **:::the press gang::: --justin katko and Jow Lindsay --Evan Kennedy --Manjula Martin ** X-ing Books --Jeremy Schmall --Justin Taylor As well as your usual swell Boog City content: **Jim Behrle?s comic Dogs Don?t Vote **And Our Poetry section, edited by Rodrigo Toscano (excerpts from each of this issue's poems below) ?Chelsea?s Maxwell Heller with Film Scenes in Search of a Genre character A is delivering a lecture concerning ______ when B enters =20 with pouch-lipped discretion. C and D are having great fun around the ______in the ______. C falls =20 into D?s lap, scene fades. next scene: the war has been underway for =20 some time. ?Fort Greene, Brooklyn?s Akilah Oliver with Excerpt from ?The Putterer?s Notebook? you were not concluding a desire, backed against the wall, your upper =20 thigh exposed through the riddling stockings as an event can simultaneously be happening and not be occurring, a very first morning a passing across the self, & my old friend the radio, red velvet hot =20 pants, a fashion show graduation from the Sears Charm School for girls, mix and match ?Buffalo?s Holly Melgard with Excerpt from ?Retrospective To Do?s? #423.687: Slurp up the sea in its entirety. #423.686: Implement a physical-body pile. #423.685: Regulate newness and the expression of newness. #423.684: Hang your hat on a glimpse of palpable elasticity. #423.683: Calculate the geometry of interrelations and de-calculate =20 the metrics of outer-relations at the same time. ----- Please patronize our advertisers: Bowery Poetry Club * http://www.bowerypoetry.com Zinc Bar Talk/Reading Series ? http://www.lungfull.org/zinc/index.html ----- Advertising or donation inquiries can be directed to editor@boogcity.com or by calling 212-842-BOOG (2664) ----- 2,250 copies of Boog City are distributed among, and available for free at, the following locations: MANHATTAN *THE EAST VILLAGE* Acme Underground Anthology Film Archives Bluestockings Bowery Poetry Club Caf=E9 Pick Me Up Cake Shop Lakeside Lounge Life Caf=E9 Living Room Mission Caf=E9 Nuyorican Poets Caf=E9 Other Music Pianos St. Mark's Books St. Mark's Church Shakespeare & Co. Sidewalk Caf=E9 Sunshine Theater Trash and Vaudeville Two Boots Video *OTHER PARTS OF MANHATTAN* Angelika Film Center and Caf=E9 Hotel Chelsea Mercer Street Books Poets House BROOKLYN *WILLIAMSBURG* Bliss Caf=E9 Galapagos Sideshow Gallery Spoonbill & Sugartown Supercore Caf=E9 *GREENPOINT* Champion Coffee East Coast Aliens Greenpoint Coffee House Permanent Records Photoplay Video & DVD Thai Cafe P.P.S. And read every Boog City back issue, all 52, now online: from 1 http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/bc01.pdf to 50 http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/bc52.pdf just change the issue number, from 01 on through to 52 --=20 David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W. 28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:29:20 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: carol dorf Subject: Re: another... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Did anyone see the play they made of Studs Terkel's Working? -- I thought it was an amazing take on work -- sort of like Chorus Line for the rest of us. The reviews were pretty negative at the time, which were more related to the politics than the quality of the play. On 11/10/08, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > oh, aye, both very big losses. g > > Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. > _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous > Cultures_ > http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=317 > _Dora_ > http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=378 > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 > > On Mon, 10 Nov 2008, Maria Damon wrote: > >> In addition to Studs Terkel, whom we lost last week, Miriam Makeba... >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 01:53:30 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Gatha recording w/ pump organ & others MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Gatha recording w/ pump organ & others http://www.alansondheim.org/gatha4.mp3 Alan Sondheim : electrified parlor guitar Myk Freedman : steel guitar http://www.alansondheim.org/gatha9.mp3 Myk Freedman : steel guitar Alan Sondheim : keyboard Azure Carter : voice http://www.alansondheim.org/gatha11.mp3 Alan Sondheim / Myk Freedman : 1878 Beatty pump organ Azure Carter : voice http://www.alansondheim.org/gathagatha.mp3 Myk Freedman / Alan Sondheim : pump organ Azure Carter : voice ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 07:57:07 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Photos from Last Sunday's Cincinnati Reading In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was a great reading on last Sunday evening (9th Nov). In Cincinnati. At our place. I might even call it a Kaurab International reading event. For anyone interested, here's a picture stream to enjoy- http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaurab/sets/72157608849850033/ The participating poets were - Norman Finkelstein Tyrone Williams Geraldine Monk Alan Halsey Cathy Wagner Dana Ward Aryanil Mukherjee & Pat Clifford Michael Rerick Tom Orange Kristi Maxwell Thanks Aryanil ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:17:03 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Zamsky, Robert" Subject: Job: Writer in Residence, New College of Florida MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please contact me with any questions. =A0 *** =A0 New College of Florida announces an opening for a Writer in Residence, = spring semester 2009 (February-May). The successful candidate will have = two published books or the equivalent, two years experience teaching = creative writing, which can include instruction as a graduate student, = and be strongly committed to playing an active role in the community of = our residential honors college. MFA, MA, or equivalent degree preferred, = but experience considered. Writers whose work engages multiethnic = experience and/or issues of identity especially encouraged. The Writer = in Residence will be responsible for teaching two semester-length = writing courses (preferably one multi-genre introductory course and one = course in the applicant's specialty), and will give at least three = public readings. We have particular interest this year in candidates = with experience in playwriting and/or prose.=A0 Salary $22,500 for .75 = FTE, with no benefits. Send curriculum vitae, letter of application, = writing sample, dossier with three letters of reference and official = transcript, and two course proposals (one for an introductory level = course and one more specialized course) to Dr. Robert Zamsky, Chair, = Search Committee, Division of Humanities, New College of Florida, 5800 = Bay Shore Road, Sarasota, FL 34243-2109. Review of applications will = begin December 1 and continue until position is filled. For disability = accommodations, contact Chair a minimum of five (5) days in advance @ = (941) 487-4360. =A0 New College of Florida is an EO/AA/ADA employer =A0 Security background check required=20 *** Robert L. Zamsky, PhD Assistant Professor English New College of Florida =A0 "we are correct only within =A0=A0=A0=A0 what we create" =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 -=A0Ed Roberson, Lucid = Interval as Integral Music =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:53:23 -0500 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Philip Metres Subject: Come Together: Imagine Peace (an anthology of peace poetry) is now out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Poetry. Anthology. Edited by Ann Smith, Larry Smith, and Philip Metres. = With an Introduction by Philip Metres. A grand collection of poetry (sev= enty poets both past and contemporary) written against war and for peace= : poems that sustain us with their vision. = http://www.amazon.com/Come-Together-Imagine-Peace-Poems/dp/1933964227 "Peace poetry is larger than a moral injunction against war; it is an = articulation of the expanse, the horizon where we might come together. T= o adapt a line by the Sufi poet Rumi: beyond the realm of good and evil,= there is a field." --from the Introduction by Philip Metres. = 100 poets voice their concern and vision for peace. = Poems of Witness & Elegy, Exhortation & Action, Reconciliation, Shared= Humanity, Wildness & Home, Ritual & Vigil, Meditation & Prayer. = Precedents: Sappho, Whitman, Dickinson, Cavafy, Millay, Patchen, Rexro= th, Shapiro, Lowell, Creeley, Rukeyser, Ginsberg, Levertov, Lorde, Staff= ord, Jordan, Amichai, Darwish Contemporaries: Abinader, Ali, Bass, Be= rry, Bauer, Berrigan, Bly, Bodhr=E1n, Bradley, Brazaitis, Bright, Bryner= , Budbill, Cervine, Charara, Cording, Cone, Crooker, Daniels, di Prima, = Davis, Dougherty, Ellis, Espada, Estes, Ferlinghetti, Forch=E9, Frost, G= ibson, Gundy, Gilberg, Habra, Hague, Hamill, Harter, Hassler, Haven, Hey= en, Hirshfield, Hughes, Joudah, Jensen, Karmin, Kendig, Komunyakaa, Kova= cik, Kryss, Krysl, LaFemina, Landis, Leslie, Lifshin, Loden, Lovin, Luca= s, McCallum, McGuane, Machan, McQuaid, Meek, Metres, Miltner, Montgomery= , Norman, Nye, Pankey, Pendarvis, Pinsky, Porterfield, Prevost, Ragain, = Rashid, Rich, Roffman, Rosen, Ross, Rusk, Salinger, Sanders, Seltzer, Sc= hneider, Shabtai, Shannon, Sheffield, Shipley, Shomer, Silano, Sklar, Sm= ith, Snyder, Spahr, Sydlik, Szymborska, Trommer, Twichell, Volkmer, Wate= rs, Weems, Wilson, Zale http://www.amazon.com/Come-Together-Imagine-P= eace-Poems/dp/1933964227 Philip Metres Associate Professor Departme= nt of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University H= eights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 htt= p://www.philipmetres.com http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:55:08 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Ford Subject: Wole Soyinka on Obama's Victory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Wole Soyinka spoke very enthusiastically last week about Obama's victory and its implications for African (and global) politics. Here is are a few of his words: "Because the main lesson of Obama for the continent, in particular the continent of sit-tight rulers is that those who believe that leadership depends on religion, race, ethnic belonging, class, place of origin, status in life are still living in the past. They are completely antiquated beings, who should not be regarded as civilised personalities." There is a tendency to see this election as simply a shift for one set of governmental policies to another, one set of administrators to another. It is that, and after the policies and administrators we in the U.S. have been stuck with the last eight years, I am damned glad for it. But it is far more. Obama's victory has the possibility of weakening one of the most powerful forces behind oppression of every sort, the idea that certain groups of people are naturally destined to occupy certain strata of society. I do not expect to see evidence of this change immediately, or even within Obama's term. And I do not expect it to happen as the result of this election alone. But this election does provide us (and by us I do not mean only U.S.) an opportunity to examine the politics of the past, and focusing on the obviously antiquated nature of certain of the Democratic party's policies misses the point. Here is a link to the article (quoted above) about Soyinka's press conference: http://www.ngrguardiannews.com/news/article02/indexn2_html?pdate=071108&ptitle=Soyinka%20pours%20libation,%20says%20'I%20drink%20for%20Obama' ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:32:59 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kyle Schlesinger Subject: SUZANNE STEIN AND ANN STEPHENSON AT THE POETRY PROJECT MONDAY NOVEMBER 17th Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit SUZANNE STEIN AND ANN STEPHENSON at The Poetry Project Monday November 17th 8:00 pm SUZANNE STEIN is a poet. Her work has appeared in Bay Poetics, War & Peace 3, Mirage Periodical, Both Both, Commonweal, New Langton Arts, the San Francisco Exploratorium, Artists Television Access, and elsewhere. Two of several projects forthcoming this year: a chapbook, Passenger Ship, from Ypolita press, and Signs of Life from O Books. Former co-director and film curator at four walls gallery, she works currently as community producer at SFMOMA. Suzanne is editor and publisher of the small press TAXT, and she lives in Oakland. ANN STEPHENSON is the author of the chapbook Wirework (Tent Editions, 2006). Her manuscript, The Poles, was a finalist for the 2008 Bateau Press BOOM Chapbook Series. Her poems have recently appeared or are forthcoming in The Brooklyn Rail, Coconut, Combo, Forklift, MIRAGE#4/PERIOD(ical), Saint Elizabeth Street, Sal Mimeo, Shampoo, Shifter and TYPO. She received her MFA from Bard College in 2007 and currently divides her time between Atlanta and New York City. Monday Night Readings on the horizon include: Dec. 8 LOUIS CABRI and KEVIN VARRONE Dec. 15 C.J. MARTIN and DAVID LARSON Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:38:37 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jerome Rothenberg Subject: Poetics & Polemic 1980-2005 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those who might be interested, the following press announcement = relates to my new book of essays and commentaries, Poetics & Polemics, = just published in the University of Alabama Press's Modern & = Contemporary Poetics series. My co-editor is Steven Clay and the = introduction is by Hank Lazer. [The Press's announcement reads]: "Poetics & Polemics, 1980-2005 brings = together in one volume a wide-ranging selection of essays and = commentaries by one of the most significant poets, critics, and = translators working with American and international poetry today. = Jerome Rothenberg's work spans a period of over forty years and nearly = one hundred books, and though perhaps best known as a poet, his critical = and theoretical contributions to the fields of innovative, experimental = poetry have become equally important facets of his work. Rothenberg's = earliest critical writings concerned themselves with ethnopoetics and = the poetics of performance. In the last twenty years his critical = thinking has evolved to encompass more explicitly issues of modernism, = postmodernism, and the avant-garde, as well as meditations on the nature = of the book and writing. This volume extends and elaborates all of those = interests, allowing for the first time a comprehensive glimpse of the = full trajectory of his thinking. In the first section, 'Poetics and = Polemics,' Rothenberg's essays address a range of issues with which he's = become closely associated, among them the anthology as a critical and = polemical tool; the intersection of poetry with art, performance, and = politics, in both contemporary and traditional practice; the poetics of = Jewish mysticism as a traditional form of conceptual and language = poetry; and the universality of poetic discourse, particularly as seen = in tribal poetry or in poetic traditions long separated from the Western = literary mainstream. In 'A Gallery of Poets' is Rothenberg's lively = explorations of the work of other poets, as they relate to his own work, = to avant-garde poetry in general, and to the poetic traditions that = concern him the most. Finally, in 'Dialogues and Interviews' are = Rothenberg's unbridled meditations and musings on what he calls 'the = life of poetry' outside the bounds of book and binding, class and = category, a dynamic force at the center of all that we call human."=20 360 pages. ISBN 0-8173-1627-2 cloth $62.50; ISBN 0-8173-5507-3 paper = $28.95. Also forthcoming shortly: Poems for the Millennium, volume 3: The = University of California Book of Romantic & Postromantic Poetry, = co-edited with Jeffrey Robinson. Jerome Rothenberg "Language is Delphi." 1026 San Abella Drive --Novalis Encinitas, CA 92024 jrothenberg at cox.net Blog at poemsandpoetics.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:07:58 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: allison carter Subject: New Particle Series Titles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I'm excited to announce the first three Particle Series titles, available o= n psbooks.org Sunday, Or A Summer's Day (A House on a Hill, Part 2) by Harold Abramowitz Eye Hole Adore by Teresa Carmody Doe by J.S.A. Lowe * The Particle Series has a small but exacting brain. It thinks in terms of compression, particularity, experimentation, hybridity, the gesture of the word and/or the lyric of the gesture, frames, conceptualisms, straight arrows into bulls' eyes, long words in small spaces trying to get out, etc.= , etc. =96 How do particles accumulate? How can a particle reveal, again, mor= e than =96 or perfectly =96 the particular?* You can read more about the books and their authors here: http://psbooks.org/index.php?id=3D4 All my best, Allison Carter co-editor, particle series --=20 Allison Carter 4233 Marmion Way, #3 Los Angeles, CA 90065 accarter.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:46:41 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: CIAC electronic magazine on Second Life Art; More Julu Experiments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed CIAC on Second Life Art Check this out - articles by Patrick Lichty on Second Front and Second Life art in general; Domenico Quaranto on my installation; a good article on Gaz' recent work; Fred Forest dans Second Life par Fred Forest; and others. http://www.ciac.ca/magazine/sommaire.htm The whole magazine is really good; I've been looking through back issues. More experimentation with Julu Twine: Look closely and you'll see a red circular object, as well as a number of other shapes, dropping in steps from the sky back into the installation. Here is how it happened: Julu Twine rode the object (i.e. sat on it) as it revolved on the floor of the installation. The object has a Disappear script which requires it to rise 25m when an avatar is present. Since the rising is accompanied by the avatar, the rising is continuous until the avatar leaves the object; at that point, the object very slowly begins to sink back to its original position. Dropping records the sinking. http://www.alansondheim.org/dropping.mp4 There is also http://www.alansondheim.org/julurising.mp4 - Julu approach- ing the object, sitting on it - at which point the object immediately begins to rise. One can imagine an elevator system running on Second Life Physics - how- ever it might take a half hour or so for the elevator to return to the ground; not only that, but if you stepped on it somewhere up in the sky, you'd only go higher. So a cheap rocket up and down, but the latter without passengers. | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:25:24 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "J. Scappettone" Subject: Poetry/Art in the time of Kennedy Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello poets and poetics: this post leaves aside the debate regarding what one ought to feel about the election of Obama; I reckon we are at least free to feel differently and variegatedly from moment to moment about it. But the astonishing events of the past week have led me as a relative youngster within history and the genre to ponder what it is actually like to operate as an artist in a context of national leadership conceived of (by an apparent majority) as worthy or promising of the title. As such, I'm seeking engaging and/or thoughtful resources on poetry in the era of (the live) Kennedy. Thanks for any pointers you may be able to offer. J. Scappettone ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:27:46 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jessica Wickens Subject: last call: Monday Night looking for poetry & prose & anything-in-between MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *Monday Night*, a journal of literature and art, is now accepting submissions for Issue 8 (Summer 2009). We publish quality prose and poetry from new and emerging writers from across the country and around the world. Monday Night is distributed at independent bookstores and sold on our website. For more information and to view past issues, visit our website: * http://www.mondaynightlit.com* * DEADLINE: December 15, 2008* GUIDELINES: Please follow our guidelines carefully. You can also find them on our website. If you still have questions, write to: editors@mondaynightlit.com. POETRY: Send up to five poems. All styles and lengths are welcome. PROSE: Fiction, nonfiction, and essays up to 5,000 words. Send up to three pieces of prose. Translations are welcome in all genres. PREVIOUSLY PUBLISHED WORK: NO. We accept unpublished work only. This includes online publications. If you have published the piece in any online or print journal, do not submit it to Monday Night. We do an internet search for all pieces that we accept for publication, to make sure they do not appear anywhere else. Please be honest and respect our parameters. SIMULTANEOUS SUBMISSIONS: YES. We do accept simultaneous submissions, but please inform us if your work is accepted elsewhere, so we can remove it from consideration. HOW TO SUBMIT: Email submissions to editors@mondaynightlit.com. Send one doc, rtf, or pdf file attached to your email. Please title or label all your work clearly within the document. Your name and contact info should also appear on your submission. Your email message should include your name, contact info, the titles of your submissions and whether they are fiction, poetry or non-fiction. We do not confirm receipt of submissions. RESPONSE TIME: We will respond to all submissions by February 2009. PAYMENT: Each published writer will receive two copies of the issue in which their work appears. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:02:56 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: book recommendation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Louis A. P=E9rez Jr., "Cuba in the American=20 Imagination:Metaphor and the Imperial Ethos" (U.=20 of North Carolina Press, 2008). P=E9rez is the most=20 interesting historian of Cuba working today. He's=20 produced a relentless and devastating=20 investigation of the origin and evolution of a=20 series of metaphors designed to justify US=20 aspirations that replaced the reality they were=20 purported to describe. What was developed in=20 relation to Cuba over the past 200 years contiues=20 to be applied well beyond the island. This isn't=20 just partisan fulmination--the evidence seems to=20 be incontrovertible. The power of words indeed. Essential. Mark =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:34:56 -0800 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Poetry/Art in the time of Kennedy Comments: To: "J. Scappettone" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jen:=20 Ironically - in the context of doing a presentation for the commemoration o= f 1968 Strike at San Francisco State - I re-activated an essay I wrote in 1= 964, "Days Without the President" - which dealt with time-frame of the Birm= ingham demonstrations (Bull Connor et al) in which it took JFK for ever to = use his Federal powers to intervent. (Sound familiar?) . But the piece is r= eally about the transitional period in which 'integration' was being reject= ed by many Blacks in favor of cultural and economic nationalisms, self-defe= nse et al.=A0 It's a 'poetic, personal' essay - in time in which Baldwin, M= ailer, and many others used the essay for person self-exploration and publi= c persuasion. Of course, it was a highly conflicted time for white and blac= ks trying to sort it all out.=20 It seems to me, unless I am missing an important chunk, poetry (in the late= 50's and the JFK regime) was relatively moribund as an important public ac= t until after JFK's assasination. My perhaps foggy impressions is that the = Beats were relativey out of the picture - in Asia & Japan -=A0 until Allen = Ginsberg re-emerged in 1965 (spring. Prague, et al). (Which is not say poet= s were not reflecting on politics, and, particularly, The Bomb. Whether the= re is interesting stuff from Adrienne Rich, I am not sure. Levertov's polit= ical work is later. As with a whole era of Anti-War poets as provoked by LB= J's expansion of the War. Essays seemed to rule the public ropes, the disco= urse.=20 People/ students in my panel were really intrigued with the period.=A0 It w= as interesting to re-explore a time which we, the young, were totally impli= cated in history (race relations, Vietnam war and the draft, etc. There was= no hiding permitted, such as today, where the young, at least the middle c= lass and wealthy, have ways to insulate themselves.) However, with the current global collapse coming at us from all sides, comb= ined the multiple expectations and hopes placed on a new regime, the JFK/LB= J eras seem to beckon. At the Strike commmoraton The young were totally in = awe of the descriptions of the kinds of actions of the time - probably, in = part, a nostalgia for the 'heroic', such as it was. Like a relish for organ= ic food, instead of Media duplications/simulations of no matter what form o= f "reality".=20 Stephen=20 --- On Tue, 11/11/08, J. Scappettone wrote: From: J. Scappettone Subject: Poetry/Art in the time of Kennedy To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 2:25 PM Hello poets and poetics: this post leaves aside the debate regarding what one ought to feel about th= e election of Obama; I reckon we are at least free to feel differently and variegatedly from moment to moment about it. But the astonishing events of the past week have led me as a relative youngster within history and the genre to ponder what it is actually like to operate as an artist in a context of national leadership conceived of (by an apparent majority) as worthy or promising of the title. As such, I'm seeking engaging and/or thoughtful resources on poetry in the era of (the live) Kennedy. Thanks fo= r any pointers you may be able to offer. J. Scappettone =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 20:41:13 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Evelyn Andrews In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm so sorry, Jim. What a beautiful tribute. I looked at almost all the pictures. Jim Andrews wrote: > Evelyn Andrews > Nov 4, 1930 - September 22, 2008 > http://vispo.com/mom > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:56:43 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Seaman Subject: New York Surrealism Event MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable To my friends and colleagues in the New York area, here is an excerpt =20= from the program of the Maison Fran=E7aise at New York University. It =20= is a symposium inspired by the publication of my translation of Andr=E9 =20= Breton=92s Martinique Snake Charmer (University of Texas Press, = $19.95). Monday, November 17 =96 7:00 p.m. Surrealism and the Caribbean A discussion of Martinique =96 Charmeuse de Serpents, by Andr=E9 Breton =20= and Andr=E9 Masson, to celebrate the publication of the first full =20 English translation. David Seaman Professor of French, Georgia Southern University; translator, =20 Martinique Snake Charmer (University of Texas Press, 2008) Martica Sawin Art historian and critic; author of Surrealism in Exile and the =20 Beginning of the New York School J. Michael Dash Professor of French, NYU; author of The Other America: Caribbean =20 Literature in a New World Context =46rom their web site: =93Just north of Washington Square, at the entrance to historic, =20 cobblestoned Washington Mews, stands a New York landmark, La Maison =20 Fran=E7aise. Since its founding in 1957, the "French House" has become =20= the most active center of French-American cultural and intellectual =20 exchange to be found on any American campus. La Maison Fran=E7aise occupies a nineteenth-century red-brick carriage =20= house. Inside, the ample yet intimate space of the ground-floor salon =20= has been carefully adapted to uses ranging from art exhibits and =20 receptions to lectures and film screenings, with a seating capacity =20 of one hundred.=94 It would be a pleasure to see you there. David= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:59:22 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Aryanil Mukherjee Organization: KAURAB Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <199944.41417.qm@web65111.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for sharing this with the listserv. I did receive that email a few minutes back and was beginning to get worried about Chirot. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Schwabsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: David It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, stranded in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. Needless to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you get that e-mail, be warned. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:04:42 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Poetry/Art in the time of Kennedy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Nov 11, 2008, at 2:25 PM, J. Scappettone wrote: > , I'm seeking engaging and/or > thoughtful resources on poetry in the era of (the live) Kennedy. Well, the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban missile crisis sure gave us something to write about. George B. Author of his own misfortunes. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 20:13:19 -0800 Reply-To: mldeed@verizon.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Suckow Subject: Re: Evelyn Andrews In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Jim-- =A0 This is a moving and creative tribute to your mother.=A0 I never met her, o= f course, but you have made her vivid in my mind. =A0 My sympathy to you. Martha Deed --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Jim Andrews wrote: From: Jim Andrews Subject: Evelyn Andrews To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 5:15 PM Evelyn Andrews Nov 4, 1930 - September 22, 2008 http://vispo.com/mom =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 23:27:17 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <199944.41417.qm@web65111.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I got it too, figured it out right away, didn't sound like David... - Peter On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 7:01 PM, Barry Schwabsky < b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, stranded > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. Needless > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you > get that e-mail, be warned. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:45:25 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <5220A54788774D0599DABEEABEE55B28@NilanjanPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yes, me too. I had already responded to him. Murat On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 9:59 PM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > Thanks for sharing this with the listserv. I did receive that email a few > minutes back and was beginning to get worried about Chirot. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Schwabsky" < > b.schwabsky@BTOPENWORLD.COM> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:01 PM > Subject: David > > > > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, stranded > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. Needless > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you > get that e-mail, be warned. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 01:25:17 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Corretta Scott King said... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'll stand by my statement. I was also very vocal about the war, but I don't think that involved a lot of courage, and I don't expect to be elected to public office. Obama got elected because it was a difficult year for a Democrat to lose and because he had an enormous amount of money to spend. It does matter that he got elected even though he's black, but that's a less cataclysmic change than some represent. I'm with (black) Washington Post columnist William Raspberry on this: "It's been said that the ascendancy of Barack Obama signals the beginning of a "post-racial" America. I wish. What we have witnessed, I think, is something less profound but still hugely significant. Obama's election means that in America, including at the highest levels of our politics, race is no longer an automatic deal-breaker. That's a major step forward in the thinking of white America." He's way better than the alternative. Now let's see what he's willing to risk. Mark At 09:24 PM 11/10/2008, you wrote: >Mark, as much as I respect you I won't agree to the tone of taking Obama's >courage from him about this. Yes, you're right he had no vote, but was very >vocal, saying all the sane, humane things. > >John Kerry and Hillary Clinton GAVE Bush everything he needed, along with >many others. From listening to Obama talk about the war for some time now I >believe, firmly believe, that if HE HAD HAD the vote that he would have >NEVER given Bush the OK with the other jerks! > >There's not a soul who voted for the war who didn't realize that there was >NO reason to invade. The entire thing was insane from the beginning. Kerry >and Clinton didn't want to rock the boat on the issue. > >It was hard times for a politician's nerves with the severe nationalistic >thunder after 911, a time that called for cool heads and courage to SEE what >was real and what was Bush/Cheney greed and plunder at work. > >Obama hasn't JUST been against the war, he's made clear the vile intent >behind it. This idea of him being against the war because it was "safe" for >him to be so is wrong in my opinion. It's the very sort of thing Bill >Clinton said of Obama when he spoke of the fairy tale that Obama was. But >Bill Clinton knew what was at stake, and needed to create a blurr around the >margins of the truth, something he's a real pro at. > >When Obama confronted Hillary Clinton on the issue in the debates there was >little she could say since the whole world knew that she was part of >the reason for the murderous mess. She and every other senator had A JOB TO >DO, and that job was to be the check and the balance against an imperial >presidency for war. They failed. They failed us, they failed Iraq, and >made the world a much MUCH more dangerous place as a result. > >It's very strange how Pelosi "removed impeachment from the table" as soon as >she received her new position, and SHE was working with a very strong >antiwar, anti-Bush platform. But it's no mistake that she did so right >after the German government declared that they would hold Rumsfeld for war >crimes if he ever stepped foot in Germany. And the Germans waited for >Rumsfeld to be cut loose from the Bush cabinet. > >It's my belief that Pelosi saw the German declaration as one that would >spread over the entire group of senators who gave Bush his power if Bush >were to be impeached. > >If Bush were to be brought down on the grounds Pelosi wanted to bring him >down on, Kerry, Clinton, and many MANY others would fall with him. AS THEY >SHOULD, just like Hitler's supporters. > >In the end Obama was the ONLY person I could vote for in the primary once >Kucinich was out of the race. By the time the primary made it's way to >Pennsylvania Kucinich wasn't even on the ballot. I don't like the primary >system, and feel that every voter in the country should vote at the same >time. I REALLY wanted my vote in the primary to go to Kucinich. > >CAConrad >http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 07:36:27 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <5220A54788774D0599DABEEABEE55B28@NilanjanPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I also received it. If you read it properly, you can understand that it is not David's style! At least they are too lazy to try to emulate the person they are using for their mean aims. Take care you all, especially to David Chirot. On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 3:59 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > Thanks for sharing this with the listserv. I did receive that email a few > minutes back and was beginning to get worried about Chirot. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Schwabsky" < > b.schwabsky@BTOPENWORLD.COM> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:01 PM > Subject: David > > > > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, stranded > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. Needless > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you > get that e-mail, be warned. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 07:25:10 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70811112236i2dcd4dedk81ce418c103e0adb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are right. And I realized soon that it was his yahoo account, not the other ones. -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Anny Ballardini Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:36 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: David I also received it. If you read it properly, you can understand that it is not David's style! At least they are too lazy to try to emulate the person they are using for their mean aims. Take care you all, especially to David Chirot. On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 3:59 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > Thanks for sharing this with the listserv. I did receive that email a few > minutes back and was beginning to get worried about Chirot. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Schwabsky" < > b.schwabsky@BTOPENWORLD.COM> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:01 PM > Subject: David > > > > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, stranded > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. Needless > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you > get that e-mail, be warned. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 08:55:04 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <4EE872C51A434215A1C15D5EF24CDFFA@net.plm.eds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Is David in Africa now? Murat On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 7:25 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > You are right. And I realized soon that it was his yahoo account, not the > other ones. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Anny Ballardini > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:36 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: David > > I also received it. If you read it properly, you can understand that it is > not David's style! At least they are too lazy to try to emulate the person > they are using for their mean aims. > Take care you all, especially to David Chirot. > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 3:59 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee > wrote: > > > Thanks for sharing this with the listserv. I did receive that email a few > > minutes back and was beginning to get worried about Chirot. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Schwabsky" < > > b.schwabsky@BTOPENWORLD.COM> > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:01 PM > > Subject: David > > > > > > > > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and > > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, > stranded > > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. > Needless > > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you > > get that e-mail, be warned. > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:04:36 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Francesco Levato Subject: Chicago Amplified & UniVerse of Poetry present Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Chicago Amplified/Chicago Public Radio & UniVerse of Poetry present: 21st C. The 1st Annual St.-John Perse Commemorative Reading presents poets: Parneshia Jones, Rachel Webster, Francesco Levato, Elise Paschen & Richard Fammer=E9e and featuring original compositions by po=E8te-chanteuse Carrie Ingrisano and cellist Meg Lauterbach. The evening will be introduced by Lucia Blinn and recorded live by Chicago Amplified/Chicago Public Radio for archiving and broadcast. The St.-John Perse Commemorative Reading Series celebrates individuals who demonstrate a consistent dedication and integrity of vision, humanity, innovation and artistry in their writing, increasing the dialogue and significance of poetry within a greater society, nationally and internationally. Friday, November 21, 2008, 7:00 PM FLATFILEgalleries 217 N Carpenter Chicago IL 60607 312.491.1190=20 www.flatfilegalleries.com UniVerse of Poetry Free & open to the public If you're in Chicago it would be great if you could attend. Thanks, Francesco Levato http://www.francescolevato.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:07:15 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0811120555u665ec98fu3f70f4f0708421e6@mail.gmail.co m> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed It seemed to me that this was a joke on David's part, mimicking the so-called Nigerian scam. Mark At 08:55 AM 11/12/2008, you wrote: >Is David in Africa now? >Murat > >On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 7:25 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > > You are right. And I realized soon that it was his yahoo account, not the > > other ones. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Anny Ballardini > > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:36 AM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: David > > > > I also received it. If you read it properly, you can understand that it is > > not David's style! At least they are too lazy to try to emulate the person > > they are using for their mean aims. > > Take care you all, especially to David Chirot. > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 3:59 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee > > wrote: > > > > > Thanks for sharing this with the listserv. I did receive that email a few > > > minutes back and was beginning to get worried about Chirot. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Schwabsky" < > > > b.schwabsky@BTOPENWORLD.COM> > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:01 PM > > > Subject: David > > > > > > > > > > > > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and > > > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, > > stranded > > > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. > > Needless > > > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you > > > get that e-mail, be warned. > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Anny Ballardini > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > > star! > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:11:38 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kyle Schlesinger Subject: Today's New York Times Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit If you're in New York City, be sure to pick up a copy of today's New York Times or read it online at http://www.nytimes-se.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 07:17:12 -0800 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0811120555u665ec98fu3f70f4f0708421e6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've known David for about 15 years, maybe as long as some, less than others. Given his current situation, I think it is doubtful. Having said that, I thought the email, while clearly suspicious, was not so unrepresentative of his emails. How about someone call him and bring this to rest. I do not have his current tele#. Alex --- http://www.alexanderjorgensen.com --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: David To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 2:55 PM Is David in Africa now? Murat On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 7:25 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > You are right. And I realized soon that it was his yahoo account, not the > other ones. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Anny Ballardini > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:36 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: David > > I also received it. If you read it properly, you can understand that it is > not David's style! At least they are too lazy to try to emulate the person > they are using for their mean aims. > Take care you all, especially to David Chirot. > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 3:59 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee > wrote: > > > Thanks for sharing this with the listserv. I did receive that email a few > > minutes back and was beginning to get worried about Chirot. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Schwabsky" < > > b.schwabsky@BTOPENWORLD.COM> > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:01 PM > > Subject: David > > > > > > > > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and > > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, > stranded > > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. > Needless > > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you > > get that e-mail, be warned. > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:17:18 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Poetry/Art in the time of Kennedy Comments: To: steph484@pacbell.net In-Reply-To: <848648.14107.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jen: I think Steve got this about right. Camelot was a media invention, and it only lasted three years, during which very little was accomplished. Whatever one thought about Eisenhower, he was nothing like as destructive as Bush, and there was no national sigh of relief. And Kennedy won by the slimmest of margins, and less than a majority--there was a third party. I don't remember any resultant stirring in the arts. That came later, after Johnson liberated all the angels and demons. Mark At 09:34 PM 11/11/2008, Stephen Vincent wrote: >Hi Jen: > >Ironically - in the context of doing a presentation for the >commemoration of 1968 Strike at San Francisco State - I re-activated >an essay I wrote in 1964, "Days Without the President" - which dealt >with time-frame of the Birmingham demonstrations (Bull Connor et al) >in which it took JFK for ever to use his Federal powers to >intervent. (Sound familiar?) . But the piece is really about the >transitional period in which 'integration' was being rejected by >many Blacks in favor of cultural and economic nationalisms, >self-defense et al. It's a 'poetic, personal' essay - in time in >which Baldwin, Mailer, and many others used the essay for person >self-exploration and public persuasion. Of course, it was a highly >conflicted time for white and blacks trying to sort it all out. > >It seems to me, unless I am missing an important chunk, poetry (in >the late 50's and the JFK regime) was relatively moribund as an >important public act until after JFK's assasination. My perhaps >foggy impressions is that the Beats were relativey out of the >picture - in Asia & Japan - until Allen Ginsberg re-emerged in 1965 >(spring. Prague, et al). (Which is not say poets were not reflecting >on politics, and, particularly, The Bomb. Whether there is >interesting stuff from Adrienne Rich, I am not sure. Levertov's >political work is later. As with a whole era of Anti-War poets as >provoked by LBJ's expansion of the War. Essays seemed to rule the >public ropes, the discourse. > >People/ students in my panel were really intrigued with the >period. It was interesting to re-explore a time which we, the >young, were totally implicated in history (race relations, Vietnam >war and the draft, etc. There was no hiding permitted, such as >today, where the young, at least the middle class and wealthy, have >ways to insulate themselves.) > >However, with the current global collapse coming at us from all >sides, combined the multiple expectations and hopes placed on a new >regime, the JFK/LBJ eras seem to beckon. At the Strike commmoraton >The young were totally in awe of the descriptions of the kinds of >actions of the time - probably, in part, a nostalgia for the >'heroic', such as it was. Like a relish for organic food, instead of >Media duplications/simulations of no matter what form of "reality". > >Stephen > > >--- On Tue, 11/11/08, J. Scappettone wrote: >From: J. Scappettone >Subject: Poetry/Art in the time of Kennedy >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 2:25 PM > >Hello poets and poetics: > >this post leaves aside the debate regarding what one ought to feel about the >election of Obama; I reckon we are at least free to feel differently and >variegatedly from moment to moment about it. But the astonishing events of >the past week have led me as a relative youngster within history and the >genre to ponder what it is actually like to operate as an artist in a >context of national leadership conceived of (by an apparent majority) as >worthy or promising of the title. As such, I'm seeking engaging and/or >thoughtful resources on poetry in the era of (the live) Kennedy. Thanks for >any pointers you may be able to offer. > >J. Scappettone > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:33:06 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Pierre Joris Subject: Recent NOMADICS blog posts Comments: To: Britis-Irish List Comments: cc: "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Check out these recent blog posts on NOMADICS: http://pjoris.blogspot.com : CORRESPONDENCES: Garron, Riggs & Joris The Goncourt to an Afghan, the Renaudot to a Guinean sign&sight's weekly roundup Kristallnacht Ocean Circulation & Climate Change Lost in Translation Last Minute Advice: enjoy! Pierre ================================================= "Always keep the tempo" -- Steve Lacy ================================================= Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202-1310 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com/ blog:http://pjoris.blogspot.com/ ================================================= ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 08:13:03 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Re: Today's New York Times In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wish that was the New York Times!=A0=20 Thanks for that, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Kyle Schlesinger wrote: From: Kyle Schlesinger Subject: Today's New York Times To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 10:11 AM If you're in New York City, be sure to pick up a copy of today's New York Times or read it online at http://www.nytimes-se.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 05:55:28 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: David Comments: To: Alexander Jorgensen In-Reply-To: <643601.82062.qm@web56805.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII no worries folks. he's home and not stuck in africa. be well, g Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Alexander Jorgensen wrote: > I've known David for about 15 years, maybe as long as some, less than others. Given his current situation, I think it is doubtful. Having said that, I thought the email, while clearly suspicious, was not so unrepresentative of his emails. > > How about someone call him and bring this to rest. I do not have his current tele#. > Alex > > --- > > http://www.alexanderjorgensen.com > > --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > Subject: Re: David > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 2:55 PM > > Is David in Africa now? > Murat > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 7:25 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee > wrote: > > > You are right. And I realized soon that it was his yahoo account, not the > > other ones. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Anny Ballardini > > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:36 AM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: David > > > > I also received it. If you read it properly, you can understand that it is > > not David's style! At least they are too lazy to try to emulate the > person > > they are using for their mean aims. > > Take care you all, especially to David Chirot. > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 3:59 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee > > wrote: > > > > > Thanks for sharing this with the listserv. I did receive that email a > few > > > minutes back and was beginning to get worried about Chirot. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Schwabsky" < > > > b.schwabsky@BTOPENWORLD.COM> > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:01 PM > > > Subject: David > > > > > > > > > > > > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked > into and > > > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, > > stranded > > > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. > > Needless > > > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if > you > > > get that e-mail, be warned. > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Anny Ballardini > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > > star! > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 07:59:07 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Rodney Koeneke Subject: Reading in Portland this SAT., NOV. 15: LINH DINH & RODNEY KOENEKE with films by JENNIFER HARDACKER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Friends, Please join us for Tangent this SATURDAY, NOV. 15 @ 7 PM. Feel free to come to the Clinton Corner Cafe early and have dinner, or join the party afterward. SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 15 at 7 PM RODNEY KOENEKE & LINH DINH with films by JENNIFER HARDACKER Clinton Corner Caf=E9, 2633 SE 21st Avenue (@ Clinton) http://www.thetangentpress.org/readings.html LINH DINH is the author of two collections of stories, *Fake House* and *Bl= ood and Soap*, and four books of poems, including most recently *Borderless Bodies* and *Jam Alerts*. Dinh is also the editor of the anthologies *Night= , Again: Contemporary Fiction from Vietnam* and *Three Vietnamese Poets*, and translator of *Night, Fish and Charlie Parker, the poetry of Phan Nhien Hao= *. His poems and stories have been translated into Italian, Spanish, French, Dutch, German, Portuguese, Japanese, Arabic, Icelandic and Finnish, and he has been invited to read his works all over the US, London, Cambridge, Paris, Berlin and Reykjavik. He has also published widely in Vietnamese. RODNEY KOENEKE is the author of the poetry collections *Musee Mechanique*an= d *Rouge State*. A new chapbook, *Rules for Drinking Forties*, is due out thi= s fall from Cy Press. His work appears in *Bay Poetics* and in the Flarf anthology forthcoming in 2009. He writes frequently about poetry and Portland at his blog, Modern Americans (www.modampo.blogspot.com). JENNIFER HARDACKER is an experimental short film/video maker and educator. She has been making films and videos for over 13 years and her films have screened widely in festivals across the U.S. Hardacker's films are often personal in nature and are interested in re-imaging and re-imagining the meaning and context of images. Currently, she teaches film/video studies an= d production at Pacific University in Oregon. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:52:39 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "J. Scappettone" Subject: Poetry/art in the time of Kennedy Comments: To: Stephen Vincent Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks, Stephen--I'd like to read your essay. What intrigues me at this point is the question of whether political joy can enter the poetic as nonsuspect, even constructive, instead of merely fueling duped patriotic hymns--or whether negativity is the only viable form of sociopolitical intervention open to poetry. I can certainly see why the essay functioned as refuge and platform. It also makes sense to me that "poetry was relatively moribund as an important public act until after JFK's assassination." > , I'm seeking engaging and/or > thoughtful resources on poetry in the era of (the live) Kennedy. >Well, the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban missile crisis sure gave us >something to write about. George, can you point me to sources? I'd be interested. JS ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:13:08 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081112100605.069d2210@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i don't think so. i think it's some kind of bot-thing. Mark Weiss wrote: > It seemed to me that this was a joke on David's part, mimicking the > so-called Nigerian scam. > > Mark > > At 08:55 AM 11/12/2008, you wrote: >> Is David in Africa now? >> Murat >> >> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 7:25 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee >> wrote: >> >> > You are right. And I realized soon that it was his yahoo account, >> not the >> > other ones. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >> > Behalf Of Anny Ballardini >> > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:36 AM >> > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> > Subject: Re: David >> > >> > I also received it. If you read it properly, you can understand >> that it is >> > not David's style! At least they are too lazy to try to emulate the >> person >> > they are using for their mean aims. >> > Take care you all, especially to David Chirot. >> > >> > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 3:59 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Thanks for sharing this with the listserv. I did receive that >> email a few >> > > minutes back and was beginning to get worried about Chirot. >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Schwabsky" < >> > > b.schwabsky@BTOPENWORLD.COM> >> > > To: >> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:01 PM >> > > Subject: David >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked >> into and >> > > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, >> > stranded >> > > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. >> > Needless >> > > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... >> So if you >> > > get that e-mail, be warned. >> > > >> > > ================================== >> > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> > guidelines >> > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== >> > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> > guidelines >> > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Anny Ballardini >> > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a >> dancing >> > star! >> > >> > ================================== >> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > >> > ================================== >> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:24:17 -0800 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: There are places people should really keep up with...Somalia In-Reply-To: <219046.22384.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7708169.stm A terrible story. Happens often. Too, I am reminded of the celebrations in Kenya recently following Obama's election. Reason to celebrate, indeed, I suppose, a great man given the opportunity to demonstrate further greatness. But I fear that many have forgotten that Kenya, once celebrated for its democracy, was ripped apart in brutal violence just this year (and following elections). I am afraid that folks tend to have a short memory with regards to these areas - and, quite frankly, I am not sure that either Bono or George Clooney do very much to inform us in such a way that we might be intentional in our response - as citizens of the world. Alex ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 23:00:21 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <199944.41417.qm@web65111.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Barry, I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What makes you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades before what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to insult that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we criminalize and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at POETICS? Be well! --- Obododimma Oha. On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, stranded > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. Needless > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you > get that e-mail, be warned. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:03:03 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Poetry/Art in the time of Kennedy In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081112101707.069d5b18@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline For what it's worth, there was an interesting NY Times article about what DID change during this last election: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/politics/11south.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=the%20south%20loses%20it%27s%20hold%20on%20politics&st=cse&oref=slogin Furthermore, I think it's worth separating the election moment and the feeling and meaning involved from it's wake and aftershock/math. On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:17 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Jen: I think Steve got this about right. Camelot was a media invention, and > it only lasted three years, during which very little was accomplished. > Whatever one thought about Eisenhower, he was nothing like as destructive as > Bush, and there was no national sigh of relief. And Kennedy won by the > slimmest of margins, and less than a majority--there was a third party. I > don't remember any resultant stirring in the arts. That came later, after > Johnson liberated all the angels and demons. > > Mark > > At 09:34 PM 11/11/2008, Stephen Vincent wrote: > >> Hi Jen: >> >> Ironically - in the context of doing a presentation for the commemoration >> of 1968 Strike at San Francisco State - I re-activated an essay I wrote in >> 1964, "Days Without the President" - which dealt with time-frame of the >> Birmingham demonstrations (Bull Connor et al) in which it took JFK for ever >> to use his Federal powers to intervent. (Sound familiar?) . But the piece is >> really about the transitional period in which 'integration' was being >> rejected by many Blacks in favor of cultural and economic nationalisms, >> self-defense et al. It's a 'poetic, personal' essay - in time in which >> Baldwin, Mailer, and many others used the essay for person self-exploration >> and public persuasion. Of course, it was a highly conflicted time for white >> and blacks trying to sort it all out. >> >> It seems to me, unless I am missing an important chunk, poetry (in the >> late 50's and the JFK regime) was relatively moribund as an important public >> act until after JFK's assasination. My perhaps foggy impressions is that the >> Beats were relativey out of the picture - in Asia & Japan - until Allen >> Ginsberg re-emerged in 1965 (spring. Prague, et al). (Which is not say poets >> were not reflecting on politics, and, particularly, The Bomb. Whether there >> is interesting stuff from Adrienne Rich, I am not sure. Levertov's political >> work is later. As with a whole era of Anti-War poets as provoked by LBJ's >> expansion of the War. Essays seemed to rule the public ropes, the discourse. >> >> People/ students in my panel were really intrigued with the period. It >> was interesting to re-explore a time which we, the young, were totally >> implicated in history (race relations, Vietnam war and the draft, etc. There >> was no hiding permitted, such as today, where the young, at least the middle >> class and wealthy, have ways to insulate themselves.) >> >> However, with the current global collapse coming at us from all sides, >> combined the multiple expectations and hopes placed on a new regime, the >> JFK/LBJ eras seem to beckon. At the Strike commmoraton The young were >> totally in awe of the descriptions of the kinds of actions of the time - >> probably, in part, a nostalgia for the 'heroic', such as it was. Like a >> relish for organic food, instead of Media duplications/simulations of no >> matter what form of "reality". >> >> Stephen >> >> >> --- On Tue, 11/11/08, J. Scappettone >> wrote: >> From: J. Scappettone >> Subject: Poetry/Art in the time of Kennedy >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 2:25 PM >> >> Hello poets and poetics: >> >> this post leaves aside the debate regarding what one ought to feel about >> the >> election of Obama; I reckon we are at least free to feel differently and >> variegatedly from moment to moment about it. But the astonishing events >> of >> the past week have led me as a relative youngster within history and the >> genre to ponder what it is actually like to operate as an artist in a >> context of national leadership conceived of (by an apparent majority) as >> worthy or promising of the title. As such, I'm seeking engaging and/or >> thoughtful resources on poetry in the era of (the live) Kennedy. Thanks >> for >> any pointers you may be able to offer. >> >> J. Scappettone >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:30:15 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Today's New York Times In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Why? gb On Nov 12, 2008, at 7:11 AM, Kyle Schlesinger wrote: > If you're in New York City, be sure to pick up a copy of today's > New York > Times or read it online at http://www.nytimes-se.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > George Bowering, OBC Grammar cop ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:18:57 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yikes!=A0 I never really thought about it this way, Obododimma!=A0 Big apol= ogies and thanks for pointing this out ... Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Obododimma Oha wrote: From: Obododimma Oha I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What makes you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to= read the history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades before what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:30:06 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?= Subject: new work by the poet "lo-y" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline _______________ I write in praise of the Belgian poet, visual poet, & net-artist known as <__lo-y. > ... I have followed the work of <__lo-y. > since 2002, with great interest & appreciation. Much of her work is profoundly original & dynamic, in conception & in action. Her work is not rooted in functionality or utility. The deliberate assembling of text & character symbols have constantly referred to the formal possibilities of the code behind digital content, making it its subject. The poems of <__lo-y. > are abstract works, stripped of narrative, subjectivity, or factional slant. In one descriptive statement from Lo_y, she wrote "well there's not much to say. Lo_y is only what Lo_y writes. No history, no stories, no explanations ..." See the poems at SCRABBLE ... http://socialfiction.org/scrabble/indexold.htm See the visual poems & net-art at ... http://lo-y.domainepublic.net/ See the very wry <__lo-y. > at My Space ... http://www.myspace.com/lo_y Bestwishes, S=E9amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:22:56 -0800 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: Chirot scam/ I am sorry i didn't inform you In-Reply-To: <74396.1448.qm@web59808.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable here's the original scam letter. =A0 i've been getting=A0them for the last 2 years, but none with anyone's name = attached. it's a clever twist that may work on someone.=20 --- On Tue, 11/11/08, David Chirot wrote: From: David Chirot Subject: I am sorry i didn't inform you To:=20 Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 7:59 PM How are you doing today? I am sorry i didn't inform you about my traveling = to Africa for a program called "Empowering Youth to Fight Racism, HIV/AIDS,= Poverty and Lack of Education, the program is taking place in three major = countries in Africa which is Ghana , South Africa and Nigeria . It as been = a very sad and bad moment for me, the present condition that i found myself= is very hard for me to explain. =A0 I am really stranded in Nigeria because I forgot my little bag in the T= axi where my money, passport, documents and other valuable things were kept= on my way to the Hotel am staying, I am facing a hard time here because i = have no money on me. I am now owning a hotel bill of $700 and they wanted m= e to pay the bill soon else they will have to seize my bag and hand me over= to the Hotel Management, I need this help from you urgently to help me bac= k home, I need you to help me with the hotel bill and i will also need $850= to feed and help myself back home so please can you help me with a sum of = $1,550 to sort out my problems here? I need this help so much and on time b= ecause i am in a terrible and tight situation here, I don't even have money= to feed myself for a day which means i had been starving so please underst= and how urgent i need your help.i have decided not tell my family so that t= hey will not be worried.when I return I will tell them and they will understand. =A0=A0 I am sending you this e-mail from the city Library and I only have 3= 0 min, I will appreciate what so ever you can afford to send me for now and= I promise to pay back your money as soon as i return home so please let me= know on time so that i can forward you the details you need to transfer th= e money through Money Gram or Western Union.Hope to hear from you. Regards, david =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:04:54 -0800 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Poetry/art in the time of Kennedy Comments: To: "J. Scappettone" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Last night - at Moe's Bookstore in Berkeley - I was listening to Hilton Obe= nzinger read from his novel, Busy Dying (Chax), which in part deals with th= e takeover at Columbia University in 1968. Even tho the NY cops - retaking = Low Library - beat 'the shit' out everybody in the President's Office (well= , David Shapiro, the poet, managed to escape earlier on!), Hilton accounts = of the great sense of joy, operative unity and exhilaraton among the demons= trators.=20 In San Francisco, during the 1964 sit-in demonstrations in San Francisco (w= hich were to compel Hotels, Supermarkets and Auto Dealers to hire black emp= loyees), there was, indeed, a sense of great joy in victories. However, it = was also a time or rampant paranoia if you were on the left as to what migh= t be 'coming down.'=A0 There was also, at least among the middle class demo= nstrators, an apprehension of what might be coming down from parents, futur= e job applications (if arrested), and a change of draft eligibility status = if you were a student. So, if I am interpreting you correctly, whether or t= he term 'negativity' as some kind of absolute condition means much in actio= ns that are continuously morphing - from great highs to the depths of depre= ssion, especially when an action fails, and the big guys still hold the pow= er. I would not dismiss the best of the early sixties essays - if this is your = sense - as either counter-poetic or primarily mental exercises. To the cont= rary. The best of Baldwin, among other writers, to which some would add Joa= n Didion,=A0 get their intelligence out of a primary, experiential sense of= event and location. Sadly, or ineveitably what was best about the essay, devolved into "Persona= l Journalism" in which 'the writer's condition' became the subject, as diff= erent from writing objectively in response to a larger=A0 'public condition= '. Rolling Stone, the mag/tabloid, by the end of the Sixties was drenched w= ith 'personal essays' - in which the persons were not that interesting, or = much more invested in attracting folks to their unique brand of narcissism.= =20 A speculation comes to mind:=A0 the percieved adversion to 'the personal' b= y many of the Language Poets, along with=A0 the interest in abstraction and= theory, the primacy of text, etc. - was in part a rejection, a 'fed-upness= ' with the 60's fetish with personal identity and experience - even it's po= litically potent forms of gender and ethnic self-exploration. =A0=A0 Ironic= ally, as if in the inevitable 'eternal return of the repressed' - the Grand= Piano series of volumes can strike me as, finally, a release of LP's 'pers= onal' - all that stuff behind the curtains of the 70's and 80's. Who would = have thought?? As post thought, I don't think you will get to core of 60's politcal/poetry= muses without exploring the relationships of Bob Dylan, Allen Ginsberg, Wo= ody Guthrie & Pete Seeger. Out of that blend knowledges and roots of Americ= an folklore (from dark twisted surreal roots to evangelical hights) Dylan m= anaged to create a 'poetic' ticket much greater public power than any post-= JFK-assasination poet that I can think of. Yet, his reasons for morphing ou= t of that role are also interesting.=20 Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ =A0 --- On Wed, 11/12/08, J. Scappettone wrote: From: J. Scappettone Subject: Poetry/art in the time of Kennedy To: "buff po" , "Stephen Vincent" Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 7:52 AM Thanks, Stephen--I'd like to read your essay. What intrigues me at this point is the question of whether political joy ca= n enter the poetic as nonsuspect, even constructive, instead of merely fuelin= g duped patriotic hymns--or whether negativity is the only viable form of sociopolitical intervention open to poetry. I can certainly see why the essay functioned as refuge and platform. It also makes sense to me that "poetry was relatively moribund as an important public act until after JFK's assassination." > , I'm seeking engaging and/or > thoughtful resources on poetry in the era of (the live) Kennedy. >Well, the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban missile crisis sure gave us >something to write about. George, can you point me to sources? I'd be interested. JS =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:40:57 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Lauren Dixon Subject: Superficial Flesh calls for Submissions! Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed While we're all celebrating Obama's victory and lamenting Prop Hate, Superficial Flesh has opened the door to new submissions for our Spring/Summer issue. Please submit your work for consideration no later than January 31, 2009. Below is the general call. Writers/Artists/Musicians/Filmmakers/Graphic Novelists/Contortionists: We're seeking submissions for our new incarnation of *SUPERficial FLESH (http://www.superficialflesh.com). Our newest issue will be published in the Spring/Summer of 2009. We welcome all forms of art, be they poetry, fiction, non-fiction, music, film, works of comic genius, photoshop aberrations, painting, drawing, photography, etc. Any translations must include proof of rights granted by the original language publisher or the author if the piece has not been published. We especially like and appreciate works bordering on the absurd and strange, but we are open to all styles of writing and expression. Since we've just had such a historic election, I'd like to turn this next issue's focus toward works that celebrate, investigate, and evoke those new, previously unimaginable realities that have already started to occur in the American 'zeitgeist,' thanks in part to the outcome of November's election. While I'm optimistic over our direction, I can appreciate the shuddering over Prop. 8 (which I share), so works need not be optimistic in nature--they can question these contradictions as they play out in our culture as well. Submission guidelines: Please submit your written work in the body of your email to submission@superficialflesh.com. All submissions must include "Submission" and the author's last name in the subject heading. In the subject heading, please note the type of submission you are including as well (fiction, poetry, etc). All artwork must be sent in .jpg format. No more than five poems, or one story, per submission. We are a very, very small literary outlet so we pay in the form of two contributors copies. Please visit our website to look at our electronic journal (though we do a small print run as well and you can order a print copy via our website). Online registration is free. Sincerely, Lauren Dixon, Editor Superficial Flesh http://www.superficialflesh.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:39:01 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Cara Benson Subject: Fw: NEWSPAPER BLANKETS U.S. CITIES, PROCLAIMS END TO WAR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've no clue how they got my info...= =0A=A0Did anybody get this email?=0A=0AI've no clue how they got my info...= =0A=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0=0ASous Rature=A0=0A=0A=A0= =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Forwarded Message ----=0AFrom: New York Times Special = Edition =0ATo: cbenson67-yahoo.com =0ASent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 10:30:18 AM=0ASubject: NEWSPAPER= BLANKETS U.S. CITIES, PROCLAIMS END TO WAR=0A=0ANovember 12, 2008=0AFOR IM= MEDIATE RELEASE=0A=0ASPECIAL TIMES EDITION BLANKETS U.S. CITIES, PROCLAIMS = END TO WAR=0A=0A=A0 * PDF: http://www.nytimes-se.com/pdf=0A=A0 * For video = updates: http://www.nytimes-se.com/video=0A=A0 * Contact: mailto:writers@ny= times-se.com=0A=0AEarly this morning, commuters nationwide were delighted t= o find out=0Athat while they were sleeping, the wars in Iraq and Afghanista= n had=0Acome to an end.=0A=0AIf, that is, they happened to read a "special = edition" of today's New=0AYork Times.=0A=0AIn an elaborate operation six mo= nths in the planning, 1.2 million=0Apapers were printed at six different pr= esses and driven to prearranged=0Apickup locations, where thousands of volu= nteers stood ready to pass=0Athem out on the street.=0A=0AArticles in the p= aper announce dozens of new initiatives including the=0Aestablishment of na= tional health care, the abolition of corporate=0Alobbying, a maximum wage f= or C.E.O.s, and, of course, the end of the=0Awar.=0A=0AThe paper, an exact = replica of The New York Times, includes=0AInternational, National, New York= , and Business sections, as well as=0Aeditorials, corrections, and a number= of advertisements, including a=0Arecall notice for all cars that run on ga= soline. There is also a=0Atimeline describing the gains brought about by ei= ght months of=0Aprogressive support and pressure, culminating in President = Obama's "Yes=0Awe REALLY can" speech. (The paper is post-dated July 4, 2009= .)=0A=0A"It's all about how at this point, we need to push harder than ever= ,"=0Asaid Bertha Suttner, one of the newspaper's writers. "We've got to mak= e=0Asure Obama and all the other Democrats do what we elected them to do.= =0AAfter eight, or maybe twenty-eight years of hell, we need to start=0Aima= gining heaven."=0A=0ANot all readers reacted favorably. "The thing I disagr= ee with is how=0Athey did it," said Stuart Carlyle, who received a paper in= Grand=0ACentral Station while commuting to his Wall Street brokerage. "I'm= all=0Afor freedom of speech, but they should have started their own paper.= "=0A=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 # 30 #=0A=0A= =0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:27:35 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Chad Sweeney Subject: On-Line Parthenon West Review: Issue 5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Parthenon West Issue 5 On-line: www.parthenonwestreview.com Poems, translations, essays: After our issues sell-out (or nearly) we're going to post them on-line, so the work can keep rippling out forever to Australia and Detroit and Paris, Texas. We love on-line journals, but we also love the book in our hands, so we're trying to do a little of both. This one's about 200 pages in print, and if you click on the EAR you can listen to some stuff from our first three issues, back when we had a sound engineer as intern. Parthenon West Issue 5 On-line: www.parthenonwestreview.com Gillian Conoley Noelle Kocot Paul Hoover Mark Irwin D.A. Powell Rusty Morrison Brian Henry Andrew Joron (Essay) Matthew Cooperman Sidney Wade Matt Hart kari edwards Johannes Goransson Sandy Florian George Kalamaras Gloria Frym Haines Eason Chris Arigo Joshua McKinney Sarah Hannah Christopher Buckley Anne Marie Rooney Mary Wang Thomas Kane Nathan Hauke Timothy Liu Kevi Magee Seth Landman Marisa Crawford Geoffrey Detrani Michael Farrell Barbara Tomash Roxane Beth Johnson Daniel Coudriet Sarah Maclay James Ragan Sean Thomas Dougherty Terry Ehret Kaya Oakes Rodney Koeneke Bruce Covey With Translations of Tomaz Salamun (by Joshua Beckman, Phillis Levin, Thomas Kane) Mexica Songs from Nuatl (by John Page) Ericka Ghersi (by Toshiya Kamei) Ataol Behramoglu (by Walter G. Andrews) George Vulturescu (by Adam J. Sorkin and Olimpia Iacob) Sophi de Mello Breyner Andresen (by Alex Levitin) Magda Carneci (by Adam J. Sorkin and Alina Carac) Paulina Vinderman (by John Oliver Simon) In a couple of weeks our Issue 6 will be printed, and in six or eight months we'll post that one too. Please, send us some poems, translations or essays. And a big thanks to Craig Rebele for his hard work on getting this stuff up. All best, Chad Sweeney, coeditor ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:33:14 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: David MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Obododimma That's a very good point. And a very straight one. We certainly need to watch out for such prejudice even if it isn't always intended. I have made such blemishes in the past too. Aryanil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Obododimma Oha" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:00 PM Subject: Re: David > Hi Barry, > I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What > makes > you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the > history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and > other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades > before > what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. > > I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a > criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to > insult > that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we > criminalize > and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at > POETICS? > Be well! > > --- Obododimma Oha. > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < > b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > >> It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and >> e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, >> stranded >> in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. >> Needless >> to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you >> get that e-mail, be warned. >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1784 - Release Date: 11/12/2008 7:01 PM ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:38:21 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <002f01c9451f$08cc01a0$6101a8c0@inspiration> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed No, it is not a good point. To say "Nigerian scams" is not to say that scams are necessarily Nigerian. The very grammar suggests that only some scams are Nigerian. If we say US gangsters, that is not to say that all gangsters are USAmericans. Here's another parallel: if I complain about Meyer Lansky, that does not make me anti-semitic. I have received many many scam letters from Nigeria in the last year. Some from South Africa, too. The latter were South African scam letters. gb On Nov 12, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > Obododimma > > That's a very good point. And a very straight one. > We certainly need to watch out for such prejudice even if it isn't > always intended. > I have made such blemishes in the past too. > > Aryanil > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Obododimma Oha" > > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:00 PM > Subject: Re: David > > >> Hi Barry, >> I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! >> What makes >> you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to >> read the >> history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al >> Capone and >> other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many >> decades before >> what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. >> >> I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a >> criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean >> to insult >> that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we >> criminalize >> and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the >> netiquette at >> POETICS? >> Be well! >> >> --- Obododimma Oha. >> >> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < >> b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: >> >>> It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked >>> into and >>> e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, >>> stranded >>> in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. >>> Needless >>> to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... >>> So if you >>> get that e-mail, be warned. >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Obododimma Oha >> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >> Dept. of English >> University of Ibadan >> Nigeria >> >> & >> >> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >> University of Ibadan >> >> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >> +234 805 350 6604. >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1784 - Release Date: > 11/12/2008 7:01 PM > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > George Harvey Bowering Fond of many dead people. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 19:51:44 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well, the use of email to scam people originated in Nigeria. The term, 419 Letter Scam, is used because 419 is the Nigerian criminal code designated for email scams. I take offense to use of the term "conman," which seems to imply that all conniving anti-social personalities that seek to remove money from one person's pocket into the pocket of another person who might be more or less deserving of said funds are men. We need to not use "Nigerian" or "con man" to refer to either of these processes/individuals. For now, "con artist" will do. In Barry's defense, if the above cannot be termed so, it seems the email scam did first originate in Nigeria, and still has a more booming business there than certain other countries. The Iraq War is the Iraq War because it takes place in Iraq. -Ryan On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > Hi Barry, > I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What > makes > you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the > history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and > other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades before > what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. > > I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a > criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to > insult > that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we criminalize > and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at > POETICS? > Be well! > > --- Obododimma Oha. > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < > b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > > > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and > > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, > stranded > > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. > Needless > > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you > > get that e-mail, be warned. > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 19:52:58 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <9778b8630811121651t2818e2f3xdd9d929b24683961@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It will do, that is, until the artists get angry. On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 7:51 PM, Ryan Daley wrote: > Well, the use of email to scam people originated in Nigeria. The term, 419 > Letter Scam, is used because 419 is the Nigerian criminal code designated > for email scams. > > I take offense to use of the term "conman," which seems to imply that all > conniving anti-social personalities that seek to remove money from one > person's pocket into the pocket of another person who might be more or less > deserving of said funds are men. We need to not use "Nigerian" or "con man" > to refer to either of these processes/individuals. For now, "con artist" > will do. > > In Barry's defense, if the above cannot be termed so, it seems the email > scam did first originate in Nigeria, and still has a more booming business > there than certain other countries. The Iraq War is the Iraq War because it > takes place in Iraq. > > -Ryan > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > >> Hi Barry, >> I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What >> makes >> you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the >> history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and >> other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades >> before >> what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. >> >> I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a >> criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to >> insult >> that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we >> criminalize >> and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at >> POETICS? >> Be well! >> >> --- Obododimma Oha. >> >> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < >> b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: >> >> > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and >> > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, >> stranded >> > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. >> Needless >> > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if >> you >> > get that e-mail, be warned. >> > >> > ================================== >> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Obododimma Oha >> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >> Dept. of English >> University of Ibadan >> Nigeria >> >> & >> >> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >> University of Ibadan >> >> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >> +234 805 350 6604. >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 20:00:16 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Ford Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Below are a few lines from Niyi Osundare's poem " Entry Point Encounter," a dialogue with a customs officer who detains him after hearing he travels with a Nigerian passport. Among other things, the poem deals with the consequences of calling the 419 scam "Nigerian." The poet's passport is marked with the same word, "Nigerian," and thus it and its owner are linked falsely to criminal behavior. "You're Nigerian?" "I thought I told you so" "Have you ever been convicted of fraud?" "No" "Have you ever been denied a visa?" "No" Pause "You know that thing called 419?" "I've heard about it But, I assure you, If 419 and I meet in the street We won't recognize each other" This poem is in Osundare's *Pages from the Book of the Sun: New and Selected Poems* ** *Michael Ford* On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > Hi Barry, > I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What > makes > you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the > history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and > other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades before > what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. > > I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a > criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to > insult > that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we criminalize > and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at > POETICS? > Be well! > > --- Obododimma Oha. > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < > b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > > > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into > and > > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, > stranded > > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. > Needless > > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you > > get that e-mail, be warned. > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:27:02 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "J. Michael Mollohan" Subject: Re: David MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's a reason for calling them "Nigerian Scams" as the vast majority of them can be traced back to Nigeria. There are a sizeable number fro Benin and a smattering of others from Zambia and other countries in that general vicinity, but for the most part they're from Nigeria. I get dozens of them in various e-mail accounts every day, so I speak from some first-hand experience. While it's true that con games are not country-dependent, this type of e-mail trawling for victims seems to have a strong Nigerian flavor. To paraphrase Walter Brennan, "It's not an insult if it's true." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Obododimma Oha" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:00 PM Subject: Re: David > Hi Barry, > I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What > makes > you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the > history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and > other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades > before > what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. > > I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a > criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to > insult > that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we > criminalize > and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at > POETICS? > Be well! > > --- Obododimma Oha. > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < > b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > >> It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and >> e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, >> stranded >> in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. >> Needless >> to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you >> get that e-mail, be warned. >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 04:52:12 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: twshaner@COMCAST.NET Subject: Larkin, Abel, & Matchett reading in Eugene, OR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As with our two previous readings, featuring Robert Grenier and Jules Boykoff & Kaia Sand, this should be a real treat -- a multi-media event featuring poetry, music, and visual effects! Please come, anybody out there in the area. [Is there anybody "out there" on this list in the Eugene area, by the way?] -- Tim Shaner DIVA hosts the A-New Poetry Series with: Maryrose Larkin, David Abel and Eric Matchett On Saturday, November 15th, the DIVA Center hosts guest poets Maryrose Larkin, David Abel and Eric Matchett at 7:30 PM. Cost: $0-$5.00 sliding scale. DIVA Center 110 W. Broadway, Eugene Web: divacenter.org Portlander Maryrose Larkin is as a freelance researcher. She is the author of Inverse (Nine Muse Books), Whimsy Daybook 2007 (FLASH+CARD), and "The Book of Ocean" (i.e. press). Her work can be found in FO A RM, Insurance, Bird Dog, the Columbia Poetry Review, and the Washington Review. Maryrose is a member of Spare Room, a group of people who organize readings and other events in Portland. Eric Matchett enjoys the pursuit of music, especially via collaboration. His latest completed project was a CD of dub furniture music with Jake Anderson on Language Master and Korg ER-1 and Eric Matchett on bass. David Abel is a poet, performer, and interdisciplinary artist who is as a freelance editor and a bookseller. He is the author of Let Us Repair (wax paper scissors, 2007, with Anna Daedalus) and Black Valentine (Chax Press, 2006). As a founder of the Spare Room reading series, he devised the libretto for the Liminal Performance Group's multimedia lecture-opera, "The Theory of Love". DIVA offers the A-New Poetry avant-garde poetry reading series. This monthly program brings to Eugene emerging poets from Oregon as well as innovative writers touring the Northwest. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 21:21:59 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Nico Vassilakis Subject: visuel concreat sampler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable each sample is from a series and each series is sampled here=20 =20 http://www.flickr.com/photos/28683642@N04/ =20 somewhere from 1986=2C (1995-2008) =20 thanks for your time=2C =20 n= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 20:34:18 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Today's New York Times In-Reply-To: <4768569A-E721-43CA-8940-7E17D967F6BF@sfu.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) The answer is one mouse click away George. ~ma On Nov 12, 2008, at 2:30 PM, George Bowering wrote: > Why? > > gb > > > On Nov 12, 2008, at 7:11 AM, Kyle Schlesinger wrote: > >> If you're in New York City, be sure to pick up a copy of today's >> New York >> Times or read it online at http://www.nytimes-se.com >> ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 23:10:33 -0800 Reply-To: b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <002f01c9451f$08cc01a0$6101a8c0@inspiration> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personally I take it amiss that one i,plies I exhibited prejudice, even "un= intended." It is well known that Nigeria has a little industry of these int= ernet scams. I didn't make it up, and nothing I wrote can be taken as imply= ing anything about Nigerians in general. If I said, "here's something new i= n French wines," would that mean I was implying that all French people work= in the wine industry? --- On Wed, 12/11/08, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: David To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, 12 November, 2008, 11:33 PM Obododimma That's a very good point. And a very straight one. We certainly need to watch out for such prejudice even if it isn't always intended. I have made such blemishes in the past too. Aryanil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Obododimma Oha" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:00 PM Subject: Re: David > Hi Barry, > I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What makes > you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the > history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and > other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades before > what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. >=20 > I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a > criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to insult > that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we criminalize > and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at > POETICS? > Be well! >=20 > --- Obododimma Oha. >=20 > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < > b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: >=20 >> It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and >> e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, stranded >> in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. Needless >> to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you >> get that e-mail, be warned. >>=20 >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria >=20 > & >=20 > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan >=20 > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1784 - Release Date: 11/12/2008 = 7:01 PM =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:35:14 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Al Filreis Subject: new PoemTalk released: on Ezra Pound's satire Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 12th PoemTalk is being released this week: http://www.poemtalk.org featuring Charles Bernstein, Rachel Levitsky, Joshua Schuster and I discussing Ezra Pound's "Cantico del Sole." PoemTalk is a 25-minute mp3 audio recording - streamable or downloadable. Also available in ITunes (with an option for subscribing). Al Filreis Kelly Professor Faculty Dir., Kelly Writers House Dir., Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing University of Pennsylvania on the web: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis blog: http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/blog PoemTalk: http://www.poemtalk.org get your daily Al: http://bit.ly/1UCfRp ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:54:50 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve Halle Subject: Aaron Belz @ Seven Corners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Spend some time with new poems by *Aaron Belz*, now at *Seven Corners*( http://sevencornerspoetry.blogspot.com/). Best, Steve Halle Editor ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:43:49 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: David Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Not all scams are Nigerian." About a year ago, somebody in China hacked m= y computer. I spent two days deleting over 1000 messages that bounced back= to my address. To get out of the situation, I had to change my email address= . Nobody has a lock on greed. Anybody from any country can hack your comput= er and send out scam letters using your name. It's a miserable situation to find yourself caught in. Vernon =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:30:58 -0800 Reply-To: jkarmin@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Nominations for Pushcart Prize MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Publication in The Pushcart Prize: Best of the Small Presses is awarded annually for poetry, fiction, and essays published by literary magazines or small presses in the current year. Editors may nominate up to six poems, short stories, novel chapters, or essays. Submit one copy of each work by December 1. There is no entry fee. Write, call, or visit the Web site for complete guidelines. Pushcart Press, Pushcart Prizes, P.O. Box 380, Wainscott, NY 11975. (631) 324-9300. Bill Henderson, President. http://www.pushcartprize.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:53:06 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Poetics of the Repossesion of Stolen Identity & the Appropriation of Chirot:as an After "After Rimbaud's Illuminations" as Pixels of Light In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unlike my friend Jean-Nicholas Arthur Rimbaud I am not in Africa. I avoid hospitals like the plague=3B superstitious & headstrong to the poin= t of danger to oneself perhaps=3B yet having entered them clinically dead 5= five times=2C I have a terror of dying in one. I remember begging as a te= enager the doctors=2C the Priests=2C for some kind of necklace similar to = those that say "I am A Catholic=2C if I am on the verge of croaking my last= =2C call a Priest=2C"that would say=2C "If found dying=2C let this person = die anywhere they are=2C at the side of the road=2C in peace=2C under the s= kies=2C but do not take them under any circumstances to the hospital." Nonetheless I wound up at the clinic the other day and when I got back at n= ight found a message from son who lives in Thailand that my email had been = hacked as he had received letter saying I was in dire straits in Africa and= asking for funds. Since the email is from my son =2C it was the only one I read=2C as too ill= to read any further. =20 Yesterday=2C I began to see with chagrin that this message was causing disc= ussion and alarm=2C and my sympathies and thanks to those who felt concern= =2C and apologies for being so=2C when the cause is a scam. My apt mate re= ceived the message on his email and told me if he didn't know I was in my r= oom next to his=2C he would have felt really bad=2C as the letter very much= moved him. I told him actually I receive quite alot of these=2C and espec= ially heartrending are the ones in French=2C which sometimes wil have also = a little foto gallery triptych of an attractive young and religious woman w= ith soft focus backgrounds. The letters from le monde Francophone also t= ake for granted I have a wider acceptance (which in actuality I do) of var= ious forms of religion that in the Western Hemisphere developed into Haitia= n Voudon and aspects of the Hoodoo Man and Conjure Woman=2C John the Conque= roo et alia in the Southern US.=20 The great number of letters on a few lists very much struck me--and the fac= t that no one actually wrote me myself and I=2C other than my son=2C who wr= ote to alert me.=20 In the later afternoon my good friend Aryanil Mukherjee called and we spoke= for along time. It was our first phone conversation=2C and very inspiring.= =20 I wondered if there is a superstition in itself of writing to persons of wh= om one is not sure if this is that person or some one else? I mean a super= stition beyond wariness or fear of embarrassment at having made a mistake i= n identity=2C having been fooled? A superstition almost as if the person is perhaps a form of "possessed bein= g=2C" like a zombie or some kinds of ghosts are? Or in actuality=2C not a = few living beings one encounters are--in airports and classrooms=2C deliver= y vans and parade grounds=2C among the police officers and and bathing suit= beauties--among cardboard cut-outs and "conventional characters" littering= obsessively the worlds of newsreels and history=2C the cinema=2C the nove= l=2C the poem=2C ancient vases--statuary-- A superstition in fact almost as though the invoked name is that belonging = to one of the dead--or=2C again the living-dead--some creature not unlike a= politician or soap opera character and actress/actor who is "ever present"= --"eternally a beacon to the adoring and faithfull believers"--just as they= are there forever also for poets-- It also struck me very much as a new aspect of many of the themes=2C topics= and subjects disccussed lately=2C among them "death" of the "author=2C" ap= propriation=2C possession=2C hoaxes=2C heteranonymity=2C and something else= which I've raised fairly often=2C the need to check sources=2C for so much= of the so called "information" on the "Information Highway" is disinformat= ion of all sorts=2C from financial to Propaganda schemes=2C government blac= k flag ops to "merry pranks." There are even those that purport to be havi= ng something to do with art (the one about the artist's starving a dog in a= gallery=2C) or a poet mass mailing an anti-Muslim fake news article despit= e claiming afterwards to having doubts about its veracity=2C because he bel= ieved in the cause the "article's" intended and actual widespread negative = effects were for (the Leevi Lehto case.) There is a kind of cliche both in life/death and in the plot of novels=2C s= tories and films=2C of the artist or writer whose death is faked=2C in orde= r to send the value of their work skyrocketing. This little scam is based o= n the very real observation of how often it occurs that some nearly forgott= en figure has been is suddenly resurrected by death and not only restored t= o a former glory=2C but suddenly begins to attain a reknown no one had ever= dreamed them or their work capable of. The "disappearance" of some "enigma= tic" artist or writer who had created a slim oeuvre when known to be alive = and yet=2C after "death=2C" is found to have produced quite a bounty of wor= ks which lead one ever further into what is now considered one of the most = daring and audacious and fertile grounds for the future--this disappearance= will vault the artist's works and name into the stratospheres of value=2C = while behind the scenes=2C somewhere=2C from time to time he or she produce= s casually a work or three to add to the heap of previously undiscovered fr= agments=2C notes=2C doodles=2C memorandum=2C sketches=2C small studies=2C e= tc.=20 This case of the David Chirot email provides yet another version=2C in whic= h the person them self is suddenly finding them self discussed at a distanc= e=2C as though they are not present at all=2C via emails discussing an emai= l which has=2C many agree=2C not been sent by David Chirot. Or has it been= ? As a Prank? Or in reality? =20 On the part of many=2C there is a concern for the person=2C and on the part= of others=2C the developing concern that various ideas that are held about= the emails not being sent by Chirot are correct. Of course=2C there is no rise at all in any value in the worthless works of= David Chirot=2C whether or not he is in Africa=2C whether or not he sent t= he email and whether or not he is paying attention or not to what is being = written about him as though he is=2C if not in Africa=2C at least elsewhere= as yet among the living. Since the identity of David Chirot was stolen and used by some one else unk= nown=2C the resultant responses to the email itself are what might be thoug= ht of as the "after effects" of the "name" David Chirot" as known on email = and as a person in a few instances. These "after effects" bear an odd rela= tion both to the "ghostwritten" and the "posthumous" and in this case becom= e related to something I have called before the ghosthumous. Curiously=2C = when being considered as being or not being in Africa=2C the David Chirot n= ame usually present has been supplanted by an unknown bearing that name=2C = and thus given a strange sensation of the "other" David Chirot "not being h= ere"--whether or not they are actually in Africa. Hence the email takes on this ghostwritten character=2C or ghosthumous=2C g= host written from the beyond the grave character=2C glowing radioactively w= ith the fall out of "after effects" in the thickets and clearings of asemic= s=2C signs=2Cletters=2C words and phrases. Along the way=2C the accumulation of commentaries and details regrading var= ious aspects of the "other David Chirot" (the non-email message one)--begin= s to construct its own small form of "biography/portrait" "wanted poster" "= Have You Seen Him?" poster and so forth--and begins to develop into a discu= ssion of the language applied to the emails--and so soon enough=2C one real= izes=2C the disappearance of the David Chirots will no longer be missed at = all. In fact=2C the disappearance of the disappearance of the David Chirot. is a= lready one assumes taking effect=2C and the only means by which one may mak= e certain that one is not forgotten is to write a letter in which one hopes= others will indeed find it in their hearts to believe the veracity of. But then--once=2C burned=2C twice shy!! How does anyone from now on know who it is really writing under the name "D= avid Chirot"-- Perhaps "David Chirot" has become something more like a Tag--to be sprayed = on a wall--used in a mural--sent into the atmospheres--as the disintegratio= n of particles-- However=2C if David Chirot's identity has been stolen and paraded about and= discussed=2C and exploited in potentia=2C might not David Chirot return to= re appropriate that name=2C that identity--and to re take POSSESSION not s= imply of identity and "copyright" and such tedious things=2C but also of th= e spirit of David Chirot--the appropriation that the first David Chirot wro= te of that tends to be regarded by most as "primitive=2C" yet that that Dav= id Chirot takes as true=2C actual. To appropriate this identity theft=2C one then appropriates al the response= s it has generated=2C as the "after effects " writings of this "after effec= t" of the name and persona of "David Chirot" as someone existing on email l= ists. =20 In other words=2C what one now has before one is the creation out of the bl= ue of an anthology. In a note found just as I began to write this=2C Catherine Daley is respond= ing to the "Illuminations" and "Illuminated manuscripts" and mystic illumin= ations I had brought up in relation with writing--her question in part bein= g=2C may these be disciplined=2C as one does with writing? =20 It is not perhaps that one disciplines these or the ability to create their= circumstances for occurring=2C as the other way round=2C which is to keep = on making oneself more available to the awareness of how many of these are = continually occurring all around one all the time. At the great risk of bor= ing everyone yet again--"hidden in plain site/sight/cite." "I do not seek=2C I find."=20 These "after effects" of an email by a "David Chirot" who has hacked into = David Chirot's address book in order to use David Chirot's name--are among = the after effects of a person and writer already writing "After Rimbaud's I= lluminations" and other works concerning "After " effects--"After Lorca-Af= ter Spicer-After Yasusada-"etc etc-- So the proliferation of the after effects of "After Rimbaud's Illuminations= " becomes a David Chirot in Africa=2C like Rimbaud=2C and also a David Chir= ot who is not David Chirot=2C like that "I is an other/I is somebody else" = that many see in the Rimbaud in Africa as compared to the Rimbaud who had b= een a poet in Europe. David Chirot=2C the Milwaukee one=2C by appropriating and taking possession= of this legacy of "After effects" of "some other David Chirot" who had sto= len David Chirot's name and created the effects which that name generated--= then produces an anthology of the responses which is basically "assembled" = not by "an "editor/author at all but simply "the name function" David Chir= ot as it were=2C both an anonymous/pseudonymous person and another person w= ho really does bear legally that name. All the works in the anthology are the emails of others responding to the o= riginal email of David Chirot in Africa. With perhaps a letter at the end from the "other" David Chirot in Milwaukee= . Wystan Curnow had said that nowhere in al I had written did i mention or wr= ite about the conventional. On the contrary=2C in al I had written last we= ek and before in these discussions re appropriation=2C has been the presenc= e of the conventional as that absence at the heart of al the methods and ex= amples I gave of the means to elude the conventional=2C not to ossify into = it it=2C to skip over it=2C go around=2C under it=2C explode it=2C fly over= =2C parody it=2C make a slightly off copy of it that is its satiric downfal= l and so on and on-- to be like those"words who intentions are fugitive" and of which it is almo= st impossible to construct a glossary of that Burroughs writes of in the in= troduction to Junkie. And what then is the conventional--the conventional is al that massive accu= mulation of details=2C images=2C words=2C sayings=2C ideas=2C propagandas= =2C concepts=2C unquestioned beliefs=2C with which one is taught to continu= ally not be aware of what is hidden in plain site/sight/cite. Not to think = for oneself but be given the illusion that one is. "To be cast o'er with the sickly pale of convention" so to speak-- The examination of many contemporary examples of "resistant=2C" "radical=2C= innovative" work provides a genealogy and typology of a series of appropr= iations of ever more entropical conventions of the "radical" and "avant gar= de" of a century ago. Many previously controversial aspects are trimmed aw= ay=2C to attempt to make the new "product" appear "leaner and meaner" or "l= eaner and cleaner." "Lite" versions appear=2C more "user friendly" ones-- Precisely what "empowers" the "innovative=2C radical" aspects and energies = is that they are conventional and so are easy to recognize and identify wit= h as "authoritative" expressions of radical=2C innovative anti-authoritari= anism via their self created revision of the "traditions of the avant-garde= ." These themselves reverse engineer their anti-authoritarianism into authoria= ianism and capitalize in the process on the re-assertion of their authorita= tive anti-authoritative stance. (note below are links to some examples of this--) (i wrote something else a few days ago re the conventional to send when I g= et better--will send on later on--.) (but then what is more conventional perhaps to say--than "you have not spok= en of the conventional so everywhere present-"-- that is because=2C the conventional is so everywhere at all times al encomp= assing ever present that --is it not continually speaking for itself--t the= poi8nt of suffocation of al else-- what Dubuffet called "Asphyxiating Culture"-- and so does not need me at all to speak of it -- other than to suggest ways to get around=2C through outside underneath fly = over--tear it to shreds--etc--) There was a great deal of discussion recently regarding an anthology of poe= try produced by a program designed by specific individuals for use with a c= omputer The names of many poets living and dead were assigned to the poems= =2C in order=2C one thinks perhaps=2C to gain it more attention--create bit= more long winded "controversy." A number of persons were appalled that one might associate such a method wi= th the possibilities also of producing fake evidences using computers and t= hen assigning them to names and thus producing "suspects" to be rounded up = and "detained" and tortured. In other rods=2C an anthology could be constru= cted also a form of camouflage for such a mission=2C or simply as a poetry = anthology as this "One" was=2C via computer written poems being assigned to= actual living and dead poet's names. Here we have a case indeed of an unknown someone stealing the email identit= y and name of a person most likely unknown to them for monetary gain under= other circumstances than that of the actual person bearing the legal name.= Yet by producing responses to this "work" which bears the "name" of the "D= avid Chirot in Milwaukee" this "non-author" is "resulting in" "after effect= s" of the uses of the name of David Chirot when it is thought to be that of= a specific David Chirot who is indeed a person interested in appropriation and writing and so in tu= rn=2C not to be taken possession of=2C makes the move known in cards as "tr= umping the trumper" "and takes the hand." ("Tromper le trompeur: c'est dou= ble plaisir") (Hand being the meaning of "chiro") Unless=2C of course=2C the hacker turns out to be someone who is playing a = prank using the name of David Chirot on everyone who thinks that this is th= e name that they know as David Chirot and in turn on the David Chirot who = also thinks that it is this particular David Chirot that is meant. Or indeed is a poetic Prankster who is trying out a poetic experiment In the sense of possession=2C one must sometimes=2C perforce=2C be a Repo m= an=2C yes-! The Repo Man of one's identity and spirit! "To take in darkness until all that remains is light" DAVID-BAPTISTE CHIROT: Holzer's "Projections" and Movies & Classes ... Holzer's "Projections" and Movies & Classes Offered at Gitmo Usher in New E= ra ... Views of the installation at Mass MoCA by Jenny Holzer. ... davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com/2008/02/new-ways-to-win-hearts-and-minds-g= itmo.html - 264k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this DAVID-BAPTISTE CHIROT: 2008-02-17 In her "Projections" exhibition at MassMoCa=2C Jenny Holzer has introduced = the bean bag ...... so we ask you to get the movie out there=2C in any way = you can. ... davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com/2008_02_17_archive.html - 367k - Cached - = Similar pages - Note this More results from davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com =BB Poetry Foundation: The online home of the Poetry Foundation Aug 22=2C 2008 ... This time around=2C it was Jenny Holzer's turn to use t= he huge gallery .... Holzer's "Projections" and Movies & Classes Offered at= Gitmo Usher ... poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/08/apolitical_poems_are_also_poli_1.html = - 53k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_fast= er_112008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:49:11 -0800 Reply-To: tsavagebar@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While specifying Nigeria may be an error, I have nevertheless been warned t= hat many of the emails one receives as personal requests from Africa are, i= ndeed, scams and I never respond to them unless, asin the case of Obododimm= a=A0Oha, I know the person who sent them, having met him on another listser= v.=A0 Am I now insulting Africa as a whole by pointing out the existence of= this online email phenomenon?=A0 I don't think so and I hope not.=A0 There= are some of these requests which originate outside Africa as well, emails = telling me that I have won something from organizations of which I have nev= er heard before.=A0 I ignore these as well as I have been tipped off that t= hese are scams or snares or whatever you want to call them except genuine.= =A0 Regards, Tom Savage --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Obododimma Oha wrote: From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 5:00 PM Hi Barry, I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What makes you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades before what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to insult that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we criminalize and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at POETICS? Be well! --- Obododimma Oha. On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, strande= d > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. Needles= s > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you > get that e-mail, be warned. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=20 Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:55:51 -0800 Reply-To: mkasimor@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mary Kasimor Subject: Re: Roberto Bolano's 2666 Reviewed by Jomathan Lethem (Ny Times) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Today's (November 13) New York Times has another review of Bolano's 2666.= =A0=20 Mary Kasimor=A0 --- On Mon, 11/10/08, David-Baptiste Chirot wrot= e: From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Roberto Bolano's 2666 Reviewed by Jomathan Lethem (Ny Times) To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 11:58 AM ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Chirot Date: Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 4:58 AM Subject: Roberto Bolano's 2666 Reviewed by Jomathan Lethem (Ny Times) To: poetics@listerv.buffalo.edu BOOKS / SUNDAY BOOK REVIEW=20 =20 | November 9, 2008 The Departed By JONATHAN LETHEM Roberto Bola=F1o's posthumous novel is not only a capstone to his own vaulting ambition, but a landmark in what's possible for the form in our increasingly, and terrifyingly, post-national world. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/09/books/review/Lethem-t.html?ei=3D5070&emc= =3Deta1 _________________________________________________________________ Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious emai= l. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safe= ty_112008 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:51:54 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Advertise in The Portable Boog Reader 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please forward ----------------------- Advertise in Our annual collection Boog City 53: The Portable Boog Reader 3, An Anthology of New York City Poetry Edited by Jim Behrle, Joanna Fuhrman, Brenda Iijima, Paolo Javier, Mark Lamoureux, and me We?re going to be distributing 2,500 copies of a 24-page issue of our tabloid-size paper Boog City --roughly the equivalent in size of a 96-page, 6? x 9? anthology-- throughout Manhattan's East Village, and Williamsburg and Greenpoint, =20 Brooklyn. **Deadline** --Tues. Dec. 16-Space reservations (Email to reserve ad space ASAP) --Tues. Dec. 23-Ad copy to editor --Thurs. Jan. 1-Issue to be distributed at Poetry Project and Bowery Poetry Club New Year?s Day marathon readings --Tues. Jan. 6-Rest of distribution Last year?s issue featured 72 New York City poets. This year?s? An entirely new lineup of 72 poets, including: Ammiel Alcalay Betsy Andrews Ari Banias Jennifer Barlett Martine Bellen Donna Brook Sommer Browning David Cameron Jen Coleman Matt Cozart Elaine Equi Jessica Fiorini Jennifer Firestone Nada Gordon Stephanie Gray Shafer Hall Diana Hamilton Dan Hoy Lauren Ireland Adeena Karasick Basil King Martha King Noelle Kocot Dorothea Lasky Amy Lawless Filip Marinovich Justin Marks Chris Martin Tracey McTague Stephen Paul Miller Feliz Molina Elinor Nauen Uche Nduka Urayoan Noel Akilah Oliver Jean-Paul Pecqueur Greg Purcell Jerome Sala Tom Savage Vanessa Hope Schneider David Sewell David Shapiro Eleni Stecopoulos Susie Timmons Rodrigo Toscano Sara Wintz Erica Wright ----- Take advantage of our indie discount ad rate. We are once again offering a 50% discount on our 1/8-page ads, cutting them from $80 to $40. (The discount rate also applies to larger ads. Back channel for full rate card.) Advertise your small press's newest publications, your own titles or upcoming readings, or maybe salute an author you feel people should be reading, with a few suggested books to buy. And musical acts, advertise your new albums, indie labels your new releases. (We're also cool with donations, real cool.) Email editor@boogcity.com or call 212-842-BOOG(2664) for more information. thanks, David --=20 David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W. 28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:08:49 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Bill Berkson Subject: berkson & towle at BPC Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Bill Berkson & Tony Towle Bowery Poetry Club 8 pm Thursday, December 4, 2008 308 Bowery, NYC 10012 =A0|| =A0212.614.0505 betw. Bleecker & Houston F or V to 2nd Ave / 6 to Bleecker St. www.bowerypoetry.com =A0 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:16:09 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: free bookcases Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I need to get rid of 12 bookcases. They're professionally-made, stained, with brackets for moveable shelves, four feet high, widths 20-37 inches. They came from a defunct bookshop. Anyone who can get to me (I'm in northern Manhattan) can have as many as she/he wants for the asking. Please backchannel. Mark ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:27:23 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project November In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Here=B9s what we have coming up at The Poetry Project . . . Monday, November 17, 8 PM Suzanne Stein & Ann Stephenson Suzanne Stein is a poet. Her work has appeared in Bay Poetics, War & Peace 3, Mirage Periodical, Both Both, Commonweal, New Langton Arts, the San Francisco Exploratorium, Artists Television Access, and elsewhere. Two of several projects forthcoming this year: a chapbook, Passenger Ship, from Ypolita press, and Signs of Life from O Books. Former co-director and film curator at four walls gallery, she works currently as community producer at SFMOMA. Suzanne is editor and publisher of the small press TAXT, and she lives in Oakland. Ann Stephenson is the author of the chapbook Wirework (Tent Editions, 2006). Her manuscript, The Poles, was a finalist for the 2008 Bateau Press BOOM Chapbook Series. Her poems have recently appeared or are forthcoming in The Brooklyn Rail, Coconut, Combo, Forklift, MIRAGE#4/PERIOD(ical), Saint Elizabeth Street, Sal Mimeo, Shampoo, Shifter and TYPO. She received her MFA from Bard College in 2007 and currently divides her time between Atlanta and New York City. Wednesday, November 19, 8 PM Bruce Andrews & cris cheek Bruce Andrews is a performance artist, poet and founding co-editor of the journal L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3DE, he is the author of over 30 books of poetry and a collection of innovative critical essays, has published poetry and criticis= m widely, and has been the subject of numerous critical articles over the pas= t several years. Books of poetry and performance scores include Lip Service (Coach House Press, 2001), a recasting of Dante=B9s Paradiso =8B [Jacket 22, online, contains a symposium on this text]. The Millennium Project, a thousand-page sequence, is online (along with earlier chapbooks from the 1970s) on Craig Dworkin=B9s Eclipse site. Three most recent books of poetry: Swoon Noir (from Chax), Designated Heartbeat (from Salt), and Co (collaborative =8Cduet=B9 texts with Jessica Grim, Yedda Morrison, Kim Rosenfield, Jesse Freeman & Barbara Cole (from Roof). Andrews has taught Political Science at Fordham University since moving to New York City in 1975 =8B with a focus on global capitalism, U.S. imperialism, the politics of communication, conspiracy theory, and covert politics. In New York City, he has also been involved in a long series of collaborative multi-media theatrical projects and performances. As composer, sound designer & live mixer, since the mid 1980s, he has been Music Director for Sally Silvers & Dancers. cris cheek is a poet, book maker, sound artist, mixed-media practitioner and interdisciplinary performer. He is renowned as a British poet, most associated with the London poets of the 1980s and 1990s, but has strong connections to poetries in the US too and is currently living and working in the Ohio River Valley. cheek's texts have been commissioned and shown internationally, often in multiple versions using diverse media for their production and circulation. There are two important long-term collaborations. One with the Welsh composer and voice "banshee" Sianed Jone= s in groups such as Slant (with Philip Jeck); their book/cd Songs From Navigation (Reality Street 1998) documents one aspect of that work. A further full body of near decade-long collaboration(s) with Kirsten Lavers as TNWK is now mothballed at www.tnwk.net. His first solo book for some tim= e the church, the school, the beer was published last year by Critical Documents (2007). A major retrospective book and DVD is forthcoming from Th= e Gig. Friday, November 21, 10 PM Poets' Potluck III Natives and newcomers alike join the Three Sisters (the harvest; or Diana, Nicole, and Corrine) for a giving of thanks, foods, poetry, music, and autumnal beverages. A two-time staple of last-year=B9s series, the night will again feature performances by many and food by everyone so inclined. Grab your canned pumpkin, plastic cool whip containers, and blue-lined notebooks= , and pilgrim your way over. If you=B9d like to participate, email poetryprojectfridays (at) gmail (dot) com. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:02:32 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: patrick dunagan Subject: Big Bell release party at Adobe Books, SF, CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *** BIG BELL #2 RELEASE PARTY ADOBE BOOKS 16th between valencia & guerrero November 20th 8 pm with readings by Bill Berkson Leigh Gallagher & Sunnylyn Thibodeaux & featuring Conspiracy of Venus Bill Berkson lives in San Francisco and New York. His latest books are *BILL * with Colter Jacobsen, *Our Friends Will Pass Among You Silently*, and *Sudden Address: Selected Lectures 1981-2006*. Coffee House Press will publish his *Portrait and Dream: New & Selected Poems 1959-2008* in Spring 2009. Despite having led a rather quiet and inconsequential life, Leigh Gallagheris a happy person who likes monogrammed pajamas, prescription opiates, lucky scratchers, little boys, pure caffeine, sincere weeping, rhomboidal square-dance, pedestrian comedy, pretentious literature, documentary film, and of course, the great outdoors. As of late she spends her time in a plywood shack or amongst fancy baked goods, depending on the season. Sunnylyn Thibodeaux is from New Orleans. Her poems have appeared in Blue Book, Big Bridge, Night Palace, Morning Train, and other various magazines. Small books include: Curves & Curses, Last We Spoke, 20/20 Yielding, United Untied, and Hidden Driveways Ahead (forthcoming). With Micah Ballard, she co-edits Auguste Press. Conspiracy of Venus was formed in early 2007 with the artistic direction of Joyce Todd McBride, whose unique and haunting arrangements bring new dimensions to familiar songs. The all women's choir is devoted to exploring the art and technique of singing music that ranges from cutting edge to classic including songs by Bjork, Joni Mitchell, Hildegard von Bingen, Tom Waits, Rufus Wainwright, and Leonard Cohen. This sister group to Conspiracy of Beards rings out 25 voices strong and continually intrigues Bay-Area audiences. http://conspiracyofvenus.blogspot.com/ *** ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:36:48 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Joel Chace Subject: John Olson's JACKET Review of Joel Chace's CLEANING THE MIRROR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline John Olson's review of Joel Chace's CLEANING THE MIRROR: SELECTED AND NEW POEMS Is now accessible on the JACKET 36 website. http://jacketmagazine.com/36/r-chace-rb-olson.shtml ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 03:14:12 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Many thanks. Obododimma. ________________________________ From: Aryanil Mukherjee To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 12:33:14 AM Subject: Re: David Obododimma That's a very good point. And a very straight one. We certainly need to watch out for such prejudice even if it isn't always intended. I have made such blemishes in the past too. Aryanil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Obododimma Oha" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:00 PM Subject: Re: David > Hi Barry, > I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What makes > you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the > history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and > other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades before > what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. > > I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a > criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to insult > that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we criminalize > and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at > POETICS? > Be well! > > --- Obododimma Oha. > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < > b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > >> It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and >> e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, stranded >> in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. Needless >> to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you >> get that e-mail, be warned. >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > > > -- Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1784 - Release Date: 11/12/2008 7:01 PM ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:25:16 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Melnicove Subject: Re: Poetry/Art in the time of Kennedy In-Reply-To: FF46DE9E-A52E-4683-B389-8EFBA29ABFE2@sfu.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The first time I heard a poet read out loud or knew that poetry existed = was when Robert Frost recited THE GIFT OUTRIGHT at JFK's inauguration. M= y 8 1/2-year-old consciousness was wowed by his ghostly figure on the fa= mily's teeny-weeny Zenith B&W. Sure his performance was shaky and he cam= e off as a bit of a bumbler and the poem presented American history from= an european colonists' point-of-view and I might not have understood a = word of it then, but I learned from that event (even if subconsciously) = that poetry mattered, and beyond that, it mattered in the public sphere.= I'm not saying I wouldn't have become a poet if I had not experienced F= rost's struggle for sense and imagery, but something touched me deeply t= hat day which still rumbles in and from my soul. =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F =20 From: George Bowering [mailto:bowering@SFU.CA] To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:04:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Poetry/Art in the time of Kennedy On Nov 11, 2008, at 2:25 PM, J. Scappettone wrote: =20 > , I'm seeking engaging and/or > thoughtful resources on poetry in the era of (the live) Kennedy. =20 Well, the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban missile crisis sure gave us =20 something to write about. =20 George B. Author of his own misfortunes. =20 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guide= lines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:37:55 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Chris Pusateri Subject: CHRIS PUSATERI & MICHELLE NAKA PIERCE AT NAROPA UNIVERSITY, FRIDAY NOV 14th 7pm Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 =20 Join us tonight for a reading: =20 Who: Chris Pusateri=2C Michelle Naka Pierce=2C and others Where: Naropa University=2C Shambhala Hall=2C 2130 Arapahoe Ave=2C Boulder = CO When: 7:00pm For more info: write to naanabozho@hotmail.com =20 =20 =20 Michelle Naka Pierce's most recent book is Beloved Integer (Bootstrap/PUB L= USH=2C 2007). Excerpts from her new manuscript She=2C A Blueprint for Inter= Surface (a text/image document with collage art by Sue Hammond West) are fo= rthcoming in Mandorla=2C Trickhouse=2C Sous Rature=2C and Foursquare. =20 Chris Pusateri is the author of Anon (BlazeVox=2C 2008) and Berserker Alpha= betics (xPressed=2C 2003). New work is forthcoming in Fence=2C Mandorla=2C= and Zoland Poetry. A librarian by trade=2C he lives in Colorado. =20 =20 =20 _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_fast= er_112008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 09:42:57 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Eric Hoffman Subject: New Book Available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, My new book has been published: There (a poem). Copi= =0A=0AHello,=0A=0AMy new book has been published: There (a poem).=0A=0ACopi= es are available by either paypal or through the author.=A0 (On-line retail= ers soon to be available).=0A=0AIf you have paypal (www.paypal.com), you ca= n send $16 ($14 plus $2 shipping and handling) to lily_anselm@yahoo.com=0A= =0AOr, if you prefer, you can send a check by mail for same price to:=0AEri= c Hoffman=0A185 Pine Street, Apartment 413=0AManchester, CT 06040=0A=0AThan= k you,=0AEric=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:28:19 -0800 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: David MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nigerian scam: we're simply speaking of a locale, no=A0different than sayin= g Florida scam, or New York scam. An ethnic slur???=A0Scamming is universal= .=A0=A0 =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 13:41:59 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <9778b8630811121652p62de36cdvc331538f709ca70c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline More on email scams: http://archive.salon.com/people/feature/2001/08/07/419scams/print.html http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/nigeria.asp On 11/12/08, Ryan Daley wrote: > > It will do, that is, until the artists get angry. > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 7:51 PM, Ryan Daley wrote: > >> Well, the use of email to scam people originated in Nigeria. The term, 419 >> Letter Scam, is used because 419 is the Nigerian criminal code designated >> for email scams. >> >> I take offense to use of the term "conman," which seems to imply that all >> conniving anti-social personalities that seek to remove money from one >> person's pocket into the pocket of another person who might be more or less >> deserving of said funds are men. We need to not use "Nigerian" or "con man" >> to refer to either of these processes/individuals. For now, "con artist" >> will do. >> >> In Barry's defense, if the above cannot be termed so, it seems the email >> scam did first originate in Nigeria, and still has a more booming business >> there than certain other countries. The Iraq War is the Iraq War because it >> takes place in Iraq. >> >> -Ryan >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: >> >>> Hi Barry, >>> I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What >>> makes >>> you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the >>> history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and >>> other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades >>> before >>> what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. >>> >>> I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a >>> criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to >>> insult >>> that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we >>> criminalize >>> and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at >>> POETICS? >>> Be well! >>> >>> --- Obododimma Oha. >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < >>> b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: >>> >>> > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into >>> and >>> > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, >>> stranded >>> > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. >>> Needless >>> > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if >>> you >>> > get that e-mail, be warned. >>> > >>> > ================================== >>> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines >>> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Obododimma Oha >>> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >>> Dept. of English >>> University of Ibadan >>> Nigeria >>> >>> & >>> >>> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >>> University of Ibadan >>> >>> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >>> +234 805 350 6604. >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >> >> >> > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 13:18:08 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Julie Strand <25jnuts@GMAIL.COM> Subject: Saturday 11/15 Katy Lederer & Noah Eli Gordon in Milwaukee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 15, 1-3PM: A MASTER CLASS WITH KATY LEDERER =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Poetic Memoir and Lyrical Nonfiction: A Master Class with Katy Lederer Saturday, November 15, 2008; 1-3pm ($25 includes workshop and reading) In this workshop, Katy Lederer, author of the memoir Poker Face: A Girlhood Among Gamblers and a poetry editor at Fence Magazine, will discuss various craft elements of the poetic or lyric memoir, including tone, syntax, point of view, dialogue, and paragraph structure. The focus will be on students' own projects and their development. We will be undertaking several free-writing exercises, so bring paper and pen. Katy Lederer is the author of the poetry collections, Winter Sex (Verse Press, 2002) and The Heaven-Sent Leaf (BOA Editions, forthcoming 2008) as well as the memoir Poker Face: A Girlhood Among Gamblers (Crown, 2003), which Publishers Weekly included on its list of the Best Nonfiction Books o= f 2003 and Esquire Magazine named one of its eight Best Books of the Year 2003. http://www.woodlandpattern.org/workshops/adults.shtml#lederer =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 15, 7PM: KATY LEDERER & NOAH ELI GORDON READING =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Noah Eli Gordon is the author of six books, including Novel Pictorial Noise (Harper Perennial, 2007), which was selected by John Ashbery for the National Poetry Series. He writes a column on chapbooks for Rain Taxi: Review of Books and teaches at the University of Colorado Denver. Noah Eli Gordon's poems take the form of jotted notes in an artist's notebook (I was reminded in particular of Odilon Redon's). Each day one begins anew to weave the web, having moved a step forward (or sometimes backward) since yesterday's attempt. Thus each prose bloc, modified or modulated by the ghostly fragments that interleave them, sharpens the focus by which he "attempt[s] via the unknown to give grammar a purpose." The effort in itself is its own reward, and a prodigal one. --John Ashbery http://www.woodlandpattern.org/poems/noah_eli_gordon01.shtml Katy Lederer is the author of the poetry collections, Winter Sex (Verse Press, 2002) and The Heaven-Sent Leaf (BOA Editions, 2008) as well as the memoir Poker Face: A Girlhood Among Gamblers (Crown, 2003), which Publisher= s Weekly included on its list of the Best Nonfiction Books of 2003 and Esquir= e Magazine named one of its eight Best Books of the Year 2003. In The Heaven-Sent Leaf, Katy Lederer draws on her experience as both acclaimed younger poet and "brainworker" at a hedge fund in midtown Manhattan to produce an uncannily prescient work of high lyric. Though on its surface The Heaven-Sent Leaf addresses that most taboo of subjects=97money=97what it ultimately confronts is what it means to be, as Wallace Stevens put it, "finally human." http://www.woodlandpattern.org/poems/katy_lederer01.shtml Woodland Pattern Book Center, 720 E. Locust St. Milwaukee, WI 53212 (414) 263-5001 woodlandpattern@sbcglobal.net *Be a part of The Woodland Pattern* *Donate or write a review for website* www.woodlandpattern.org *Contribute to the blog* woodlandpattern.blogspot.com/ *Become a Myspace friend * http://www.myspace.com/woodlandpattern *Become a Facebook friend* http://www.facebook.com/people/Woodland_Pattern/512368745 -- Behind the storm of daily conflict and crisis, the dramatic confrontations, the tumult of political struggle, the poet, the artist, the musician, continues the quiet work of centuries, building bridges of experience between peoples, reminding man of the universality of his feelings and desires and despairs, and reminding him that the forces that unite are deeper than those that divide. -John F. Kennedy =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:21:59 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stuart Ross Subject: Toronto: Meet the Presses Indie Literary Market, November 29 In-Reply-To: <002f01c9451f$08cc01a0$6101a8c0@inspiration> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Meet the Presses invites you to the first I N D I E L I T E R A R Y M A R K E T The Meet the Presses Indie Literary Market gives the public an opportunity to meet about 30 local literary presses and directly purchase publications that may not be readily available (or available at all!) in bookstores. Saturday, November 29 Noon - 5 pm Clinton's Tavern (back room), 693 Bloor West Participating literary publishers and magazines include: Agora Coach House Books ECW Press The Emergency Response Unit Existere Insomniac Press The Mercury Press Pedlar Press Peter O'Toole Proper Tales Press serif of nottingham editions Um Yeah Press Underwhich Editions Wolsak & Wynn And the list is growing. This is Toronto's only all-literary indie-publisher showcase! You'll find cutting-edge fiction, poetry, and creative non-fiction from some of the most exciting, challenging publishers in Canada. Admission is free. Clinton's has a great selection of food and drink for purchase. The Indie Literary Market is curated by the volunteer collective Meet the Presses: Gary Barwin, Paul Dutton, Maria Erskine, Ally Fleming, Beth Follett, Maggie Helwig, Leigh Nash, Nick Power, Stuart Ross http://www.meetthepresses.wordpress.com meetthepresses@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:49:06 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Doug Holder Subject: Boston Area Small Press and Poetry Scene : Behind the scenes at Houghton Mifflin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Boston Area Small Press and Poetry Scene http://dougholder.blogspot.com Friday, November 14, 2008 Lawrence Kessenich: Behind the Scenes at Houghton Mifflin. =20 Lawrence Kessenich: Behind the Scenes at Houghton Mifflin. With Doug Holder Lawrence Kessenich was an editor at the prestigious Boston publishing hou= se=20 Houghton Mifflin. Kessenich, 58, attended the MFA program at U/Mass=20 Amherst, lived near Emily Dickinson=92s house, and encountered such poets= as:=20 Joe Langland, Donald Junkins, and James Tate. When he didn=92t secure a=20= teaching assistant position he was forced to drop out and applied to the=20= Radcliff Publishing Seminar, attending in the summer of 1978. During his = time=20 at Houghton Mifflin, Kessenich recruited W. P. Kinsella author of =93Shoe= less=20 Joe,=94 Rick Boyer=92s =93Billingsgate Shoal=94, a mystery that won an Ed= gar Award for=20 best mystery novel of the year, =93Confessions of Taoist on Wall Street,=94= by David Payne, and =93Selected Poems of Anne Sexton,=94 edited by Diane=20= Middlebrook,. Kessenich was the editor for Terry McMillan=92s first book = =93Mama,=94=20 as well. I spoke with him on my Somerville Community Access TV Show: =93 = Poet=20 to Poet: Writer to Writer.=94 Doug Holder: After you graduated form the University of Wisconsin in 1974= ,=20 you told me you =93meandered=94 throughout your twenties. What did you do= ? Is=20 meandering a good thing? Lawrence Kessenich: It was good for me. At the end of college I was=20 interested in the theatre. I started doing amateur theatre. I basically s= pent=20 my twenties applying to graduate schools. I was accepted into a theatre=20= program, but at the last minute decided it wasn=92t for me. I was startin= g to=20 write a lot at that point. I put together some short stories that I had w= ritten,=20 and applied to 5 or 6 programs. I didn=92t get into any of them. At that = time I=20 started writing more poetry and so the next time I applied, I applied in = poetry.=20 I got into three different programs and chose the one at U/Mass Amherst. = I=20 have always been attracted to Massachusetts. They had a very good program= =20 at U/Mass. Donald Junkins, was the head of the writing program at that ti= me.=20 But I ran out of money, and I didn=92t get a teaching assistantship. So I= had to=20 leave. DH: How did you support yourself in your twenties? LK: I had all sorts of odd jobs. I worked in a hospital and assisted in=20= autopsies=97that was an interesting experience. I worked at an art supply= =20 store, a U Haul dealership, etc=85 DH: You attended the Radcliffe Publishing Course in the 70=92s. Was it so= rt of=20 like a boot camp for getting into the publishing industry? LK: That=92s a pretty good description. It=92s six weeks and it is very i= ntense. I=20 went 25 years ago, I think it has been around for sixty years now. They b= ring=20 in a lot of people from the publishing business, it is just not theoretic= al. You=20 hear from people who do it on a day-to-day basis. They do some recruiting= . It=20 does give you contacts in the publishing industry. I almost got a job in = New=20 York but I decided I couldn=92t live in New York on the salary they offer= ed. I=20 eventually got the job at Houghton Mifflin from someone I met at the cour= se. DH: But you originally wanted to be a writer and now you found yourself o= n=20 the road to being an editor. LK: I sort of had an epiphany when I left U/Mass. I thought maybe I was m= ore=20 suited to be the helper than the person who actually creates the stuff. I= =20 thought maybe I was more suited to be in the background. It turned out I = was=20 pretty good at it=85it was a good role for me. But eventually I did want = to=20 become a writer myself. I did a little, but it is hard when you are an ed= itor.=20 There are only a handful of people who do it. DH: William Maxwell of The New Yorker did it. LK: Yeah and Toni Morrison, Michael Korda. DH: Did the famous editor of Hemingway and Thomas Wolff, Maxwell Perkins,= =20 write? LK: Absolutely not. He was a pure editor. He was sort of my idol. DH: Your first job at Houghton Mifflin was editorial assistant to Robie=20= Macauley, a well-known name in the literary world. He was the first serio= us=20 fiction editor at Playboy. He must have had a few stories from the Mansio= n,=20 right? LK: He was there in the 60=92s and was able to pay writers $2,000 a short= story.=20 In that era you could live on $6,000 a year. He literally supported, some= times=20 well-known writers, by publishing two or three of their stories in Playbo= y. So it=20 was a tremendously powerful position, and he got to know a lot of writers= =20 very well. At one time he decided to take a trip to Europe with his wife. The boss=20= asked: =93 Well, what are you going to do?=94 He replied: =93Well we are = going here=20 and there. While I am there I am going to visit Nabokov, etc=85=94 He kne= w all=20 these writers abroad. His boss said=94 Oh, well, we will pay for that.=94= They=20 wanted him to maintain contacts with these writers. DH: You say you had to =93acquire=94 novels in order to get ahead. How do= es one=20 go about doing that? LK: Well, for novels or nonfiction=97you basically read articles. When yo= u are=20 starting out agents won=92t talk to you. So you talk to other people, rea= d=20 literary magazines, the smaller magazines, where the authors aren=92t=20 necessarily well known. There is a magazine in the publishing trade=20 called: =93Publisher=92s Weekly.=94 I discovered the author W.P. Kinsella= who=20 wrote =93Shoeless Joe=94 there. The reviews appear in PW before the book = is even=20 out. So I happened to read this review of a Canadian anthology of short=20= stories. There was a one sentence description of Kinsella=92s story: =93 = An Iowa=20 farmer builds a playing field in his cornfield in order to invoke his bas= eball hero=20 Shoeless Joe Jackson.=94 It sounded wonderful. I=92m from the Midwest, an= d I like=20 sports. I was young and na=EFve and I didn=92t know much about publishing= . I=20 figured that fourteen editors would write to him as soon as they saw it. = So I=20 decided I was going to write him right away. I asked him if he ever had w= ritten=20 a novel. Nobody wants to start with short stories. It happens once in a w= hile=20 but it=92s rare.=20 The Canadian anthology was going to be in the store. And this will give y= ou an=20 idea how little money you make in publishing: I was so poor I didn=92t fe= el I could=20 buy the book, so I went into a bookstore in Harvard Square and read the=20= story. I was just thrilled. He wrote back and said: =93 I=92d love to wri= te a novel. I=20 tried several times but I didn=92t have any luck. I told him to send me e= verything=20 he had ever written, which at that time were two books of short stories, = a=20 beginning novel, etc=85 I read all of it, but I pretty much came back to = the=20 original short story. This was the story that became =93Shoeless Joe,=94 = and the=20 subsequent movie =93Field of Dreams.=94 He had an idea about baseball sto= ries. I=20 said that it was great, but that he should start with the first short sto= ry and=20 go from there. He responded: =93 No, I don=92t want to do that.=94 He had= another=20 way he wanted to write it. So about three months later I get about ninety= =20 pages of the novel. And honestly, it was terrible. It felt like it wasn=92= t even the=20 same writer. I worked up my courage and said: =93 Look, I don=92t think i= t is=20 working this way. I think you should start with that short story and go f= rom=20 there.=94 And once he did that it took off. I never told him I was just a= n=20 assistant editor. DH: Nan Talese promoted you to editor. She had the misfortune to publish=20= James Frey=92s ill-fated memoir. How can an editor guard against phony me= moirs,=20 etc=85? LK: What can you do? You=92d have to know the person=92s life. People usu= ally=20 have some form of credentials=85so there is an element of trust. DH: You were Terry McMillan=92s editor for her first book =93Mama.=94 It = was chose=20 from the slush pile. Are slush piles extinct today? LK: Yeah. Pretty much. It has to come through an editor or an agent. It=92= s a=20 matter of time an expense. It was a fulltime job. I think publishers want= to use=20 interns for other things. Publishing houses run on a pretty small margin,= so=20 when they do get interns they use them on things that have to be done. Th= e=20 slush pile is a problem because it is huge; anything can get in there. If= you=20 get it through an editor or an agent the file is much smaller. I think it is now shifted to the agents. They now get the slush pile. DH: Do agents seek quality work or just work that will sell? LK: They have the same problems as publishing houses. They can=92t invest= a=20 lot of time in things that won=92t sell. I think there are a lot more age= nts out=20 there that are more idealistic than people realize. If there is something= they=20 love, but are not sure if people are going to buy it, they probably will = go to=20 bat for it. DH: You worked with Diane Middlebrook on the =93Select Poems of Anne=20 Sexton.=94 What role did you plav=97did you select any of the poems? LK: No. I wish I could of because she was one of my favorite poets. I was= =20 there as a representative in the publishing house. I made sure that when = the=20 manuscript was turned in they did the right things with it: like cover de= sign,=20 inside design, and I was the intermediary between anyone else they had to= =20 deal with. DH: In an interview with Lois Ames, Sexton=92s and Sylvia Plath=92s socia= l worker,=20 and author of the intro to Plath=92s =93Bell Jar,=94 Ames told me she tri= ed to do a=20 biography of Plath but ran into a lot of trouble with the family. Did thi= s happen=20 to Middlebrook? LK: It took years for Diane to write =93Anne Sexton: A Biography.=94 But = during=20 that time she called me up and said: =93You are never going to believe wh= at I=20 have--- the tapes of Sexton=92s sessions with her therapist.=94 =93Well=94= I said. =93This=20 will guarantee that the book will be controversial if nothing else. And i= t=20 certainly was and the family was very upset. This fact didn=92t come out = until=20 the book was published. --- Doug Holder/ Ibbetson Update =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 00:07:37 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <0C9DDBDB-4397-4464-8982-98E77B612176@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline We know the uses of adjectives. If anyone has doubts about the what the modifier "Nigerian" is doing in "Nigerian scams", that person can pick a good grammar book and crosscheck. Moreover, we are talking about language as "loaded weapon" here, and as Dwight Bolinger says, what is even more dangerous is to assume that such a weapon is innocuous! -- Obododimma. On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 1:38 AM, George Bowering wrote: > No, it is not a good point. > To say "Nigerian scams" is not to say that scams are necessarily Nigerian. > The very grammar suggests that only some scams are Nigerian. > If we say US gangsters, that is not to say that all gangsters are > USAmericans. > Here's another parallel: if I complain about Meyer Lansky, > that does not make me anti-semitic. > I have received many many scam letters from Nigeria in the last year. > Some from South Africa, too. The latter were South African scam letters. > > gb > > > > On Nov 12, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > Obododimma >> >> That's a very good point. And a very straight one. >> We certainly need to watch out for such prejudice even if it isn't always >> intended. >> I have made such blemishes in the past too. >> >> Aryanil >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Obododimma Oha" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:00 PM >> Subject: Re: David >> >> >> Hi Barry, >>> I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What >>> makes >>> you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the >>> history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and >>> other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades >>> before >>> what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. >>> >>> I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a >>> criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to >>> insult >>> that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we >>> criminalize >>> and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at >>> POETICS? >>> Be well! >>> >>> --- Obododimma Oha. >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < >>> b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: >>> >>> It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and >>>> e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, >>>> stranded >>>> in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. >>>> Needless >>>> to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if >>>> you >>>> get that e-mail, be warned. >>>> >>>> ================================== >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>>> guidelines >>>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Obododimma Oha >>> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >>> Dept. of English >>> University of Ibadan >>> Nigeria >>> >>> & >>> >>> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >>> University of Ibadan >>> >>> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >>> +234 805 350 6604. >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1784 - Release Date: 11/12/2008 >> 7:01 PM >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> > George Harvey Bowering > Fond of many dead people. > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:14:34 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Re: visuel concreat sampler In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Nico, Very powerful work. I am especially intrigued by "from textorn" and "staring index", and "in other words, you see", relating, I suppose, to the organic fluidity in those pieces. Thanks for the look... - Peter Ciccariello On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 12:21 AM, Nico Vassilakis wrote: > each sample is from a series and each series is sampled here > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/28683642@N04/ > > somewhere from 1986, (1995-2008) > > thanks for your time, > > n > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 23:59:52 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <9778b8630811121651t2818e2f3xdd9d929b24683961@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline You are right in preferring "con artist" to "con man", for gender reasons. But I would like you to publish the first 419 email sent from Nigeria on this list, to prove that the use of email in conning originated from Nigeria. -- Obododimma. On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 1:51 AM, Ryan Daley wrote: > Well, the use of email to scam people originated in Nigeria. The term, 419 > Letter Scam, is used because 419 is the Nigerian criminal code designated > for email scams. > > I take offense to use of the term "conman," which seems to imply that all > conniving anti-social personalities that seek to remove money from one > person's pocket into the pocket of another person who might be more or less > deserving of said funds are men. We need to not use "Nigerian" or "con man" > to refer to either of these processes/individuals. For now, "con artist" > will do. > > In Barry's defense, if the above cannot be termed so, it seems the email > scam did first originate in Nigeria, and still has a more booming business > there than certain other countries. The Iraq War is the Iraq War because it > takes place in Iraq. > > -Ryan > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Obododimma Oha > wrote: > > > Hi Barry, > > I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What > > makes > > you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the > > history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and > > other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades > before > > what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. > > > > I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a > > criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to > > insult > > that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we > criminalize > > and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at > > POETICS? > > Be well! > > > > --- Obododimma Oha. > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < > > b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > > > > > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into > and > > > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, > > stranded > > > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. > > Needless > > > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if > you > > > get that e-mail, be warned. > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Obododimma Oha > > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > > Dept. of English > > University of Ibadan > > Nigeria > > > > & > > > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > > University of Ibadan > > > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > > +234 805 350 6604. > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:16:43 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Fw: this is really important and URGENT, dear NY art friends.... (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > Date: Saturday, November 15, 2008, 9:23 AM > and today is the day to do it--they vote on MONDAY > > Click here: > http://capwiz.com/artsusa/ny/issues/alert/?alertid=12191871&type=ML > > > ACT NOW!!! > The Governor proposes cutting the remaining New York State > Council on the Arts budget. > > We only have 2 days to make our voices heard because the > special legislative session convenes on November 18. > > The Legislature will consider the Governor's proposed > cuts, including an additional $7 million to the current arts > budget. This could mean that almost 400 grantees in the > October cycle and a similar number in the December cycle > would receive almost nothing. The inequities are staggering. > > The Governor's proposal comes on top of $2.6 (6%) > already cut out of the State Arts Council budget a short > time ago--- thereby reducing NYSCA's budget by about 20% > from $49 million to $39 million mid-year. > > The Governor called the special legislative session to deal > with the additional shortfall in the CURRENT year. His > proposed plan is a comprehensive, two-year $5.2 billion > deficit reduction plan that he says will entirely eliminate > the State's $1.5 billion current-year shortfall. > > The Legislature can alter the "cut list" and make > different recommendations. The Governor proposed significant > cuts to all sectors, so let your legislators know that the > tiny savings they gain from the arts cut pales in comparison > to the resulting social and economic losses in communities > across the State. > > WE KNOW GRASS ROOTS ORGANIZING WORKS. Send an email now. It > takes 2 minutes. > > Click here: > http://capwiz.com/artsusa/ny/issues/alert/?alertid=12191871&type=ML > > > to send an email to your legislators. > > Forward this email to every support of the arts you know. > We need to FLOOD Albany with thousands of emails in the next > few days. > > > P.S. from Su--sorry for double postings, and no need to > reply (unless to ask that I not send you these sorts of > things) > > -- Su Friedrich > 118 North 11th Street > Brooklyn, NY 11211 > (718) 599-7601 > (917) 620-6765 > http://www.sufriedrich.com > > "I don't want to achieve immortality through my > work. I want to achieve it through not dying." > --Woody Allen ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:30:29 -0800 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I taught in Nigeria for two years way way back. I am still in close contact= with former Nigerian students, and friends from the time. I personally get= offended when I hear "Nigerian scam" or variations on that. For a moment, = when it became vogue-ish to indulge that characterization, it gave me the i= mpression that the whole country had been taken over by these Internet wiel= ding scam 'artists' - which I just as suddenly was stupid and highly prejud= icial, dismissive, etc.=20 Maybe human nature? Maybe most countries are looking at the USA and reducin= g us down to a cast of greedy unscrupulous banker/mortgage broker/ real est= ate predators??=20 Nigeria - its pleasures and real disturbances (corrupt practices by some in= cluded) is much more interesting country than that easy reductive=A0 'scam'= slight.=A0 =A0=20 Humorously, the Nigerian students on the Nsukka campus where I taught, woul= d call, in Pidgin English, the few Albino students "Peace Corpsees."=A0 (No= , I did not interpet that to mean I was a 'dead man walking'!) Better than a "Bushie" - I suspect.=20 Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ --- On Fri, 11/14/08, Obododimma Oha wrote: From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 3:07 PM We know the uses of adjectives. If anyone has doubts about the what the modifier "Nigerian" is doing in "Nigerian scams", that person can pick a good grammar book and crosscheck. Moreover, we are talking about language a= s "loaded weapon" here, and as Dwight Bolinger says, what is even more dangerous is to assume that such a weapon is innocuous! -- Obododimma. On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 1:38 AM, George Bowering wrote: > No, it is not a good point. > To say "Nigerian scams" is not to say that scams are necessarily Nigerian. > The very grammar suggests that only some scams are Nigerian. > If we say US gangsters, that is not to say that all gangsters are > USAmericans. > Here's another parallel: if I complain about Meyer Lansky, > that does not make me anti-semitic. > I have received many many scam letters from Nigeria in the last year. > Some from South Africa, too. The latter were South African scam letters. > > gb > > > > On Nov 12, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > Obododimma >> >> That's a very good point. And a very straight one. >> We certainly need to watch out for such prejudice even if it isn't always >> intended. >> I have made such blemishes in the past too. >> >> Aryanil >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Obododimma Oha" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:00 PM >> Subject: Re: David >> >> >> Hi Barry, >>> I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What >>> makes >>> you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the >>> history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and >>> other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades >>> before >>> what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. >>> >>> I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a >>> criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to >>> insult >>> that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we >>> criminalize >>> and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at >>> POETICS? >>> Be well! >>> >>> --- Obododimma Oha. >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < >>> b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: >>> >>> It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and >>>> e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, >>>> stranded >>>> in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. >>>> Needless >>>> to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if >>>> you >>>> get that e-mail, be warned. >>>> >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>>> guidelines >>>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Obododimma Oha >>> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >>> Dept. of English >>> University of Ibadan >>> Nigeria >>> >>> & >>> >>> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >>> University of Ibadan >>> >>> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >>> +234 805 350 6604. >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1784 - Release Date: 11/12/2008 >> 7:01 PM >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> > George Harvey Bowering > Fond of many dead people. > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=20 Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:13:40 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: visuel concreat sampler In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a real treat, nico. amazing. thanks a lot. i've linked to it at http://vispo.com/misc/links.htm#nico > each sample is from a series and each series is sampled here > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/28683642@N04/ > > somewhere from 1986, (1995-2008) > > thanks for your time, > > n ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 23:08:17 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought this was pretty interesting: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" http://infinityskitchen.com/blog/oulipo-documentar three videos. nothing you wouldn't get from a reading of the oulipo compendium, but there it is in video on the web very easy. the constraint, not the application of the constraint. more interested in potential/poetential literature than in the application of the constraint, i.e., 'the thing itself'. i think that's at the core of it. a very useful idea/aesthetic. to me, that's 'conceptual literature' in the best sense of that term. not exactly 'content is king'. unless we think of the content of the concept. then it is. but in a very different way. the content of the concept? yes, everything it implies and all its atmospheres. is it a one-liner or does it have roots and legs and generative fecundity. ja ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:57:47 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Denuded Prims MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Denuded Prims When one loads Second Life, servers and bandwidth, not to mention your local machine, might slow things up; the image passes from incomplete to the masquerade of a replete and fecund world. Here are a few examples: http://www.alansondheim.org/rush1.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/rush2.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/rush3.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/rush4.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/rush5.jpg It's the reverse of the hypnagogic, beginning with the blank slate of antiquated neurophysiology, ending with an ostensible real that is equally within the imaginary. You see this out of the corner of your eye, all the time; you don't quite trust yourself, trust your vision. "Shattering a moment of intimacy - for me, the Net doesn't do it, I long for real intimacy beyond this space the longer I'm on-line, closeness, pressure, of the body against the keys, the intimacy which is touch, the intimacy of nest, domus, place. Love is the occasion of all, the light itself floats, transforming the world of intimacy into the weight or intimacy of the screen - nothing, in short, that is desirable - intimacy may result after all. But the activity is very different, like formation, the hunt, the studied mannerist intimacy of speaking, drugging, posses- sion, the contract. Intimacy forestalls occupation, the experiential. The writing should be the exposure of every intimacy and secret, should be exposure, of intimacy, every secret intimacy the secret should shout all self, the vanishing- point, plane and punctum." ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 23:03:58 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed It's called a Nigerian scam, the way French Fries, which are considerably more dangerous, are called French Fries. Unlike French Fries, the scam really did originate in the country for which it's named, though of course now they come from everywhere. I guess there's no justice. One solution would be to avoid all vocalizations beyond grunts, tho even grunts may be taken by someone somewhere as offensive. Mark At 05:59 PM 11/14/2008, you wrote: >You are right in preferring "con artist" to "con man", for gender reasons. >But I would like you to publish the first 419 email sent from Nigeria on >this list, to prove that the use of email in conning originated from >Nigeria. > >-- Obododimma. > >On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 1:51 AM, Ryan Daley wrote: > > > Well, the use of email to scam people originated in Nigeria. The term, 419 > > Letter Scam, is used because 419 is the Nigerian criminal code designated > > for email scams. > > > > I take offense to use of the term "conman," which seems to imply that all > > conniving anti-social personalities that seek to remove money from one > > person's pocket into the pocket of another person who might be more or less > > deserving of said funds are men. We need to not use "Nigerian" or "con man" > > to refer to either of these processes/individuals. For now, "con artist" > > will do. > > > > In Barry's defense, if the above cannot be termed so, it seems the email > > scam did first originate in Nigeria, and still has a more booming business > > there than certain other countries. The Iraq War is the Iraq War because it > > takes place in Iraq. > > > > -Ryan > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Obododimma Oha > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Barry, > > > I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What > > > makes > > > you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the > > > history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and > > > other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades > > before > > > what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. > > > > > > I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a > > > criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to > > > insult > > > that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we > > criminalize > > > and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at > > > POETICS? > > > Be well! > > > > > > --- Obododimma Oha. > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < > > > b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > > > > > > > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into > > and > > > > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, > > > stranded > > > > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. > > > Needless > > > > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if > > you > > > > get that e-mail, be warned. > > > > > > > > ================================== > > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > > guidelines > > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Obododimma Oha > > > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > > > Dept. of English > > > University of Ibadan > > > Nigeria > > > > > > & > > > > > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > > > University of Ibadan > > > > > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > > > +234 805 350 6604. > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > >-- >Obododimma Oha >Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >Dept. of English >University of Ibadan >Nigeria > >& > >Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >University of Ibadan > >Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 15:45:53 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Here's the wikipedia entry on Advance Fee Fraud (also known as 419 fraud, Nigerian scam, Nigerian bank scam, Nigerian money offer, the Spanish Prisoner, the Black money scam, Russian/Ukrainian scam) with plenty of references. Since it began in the early 80s I'm pretty sure the first examples were postal rather than electronic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_fee_fraud ~mIEKAL On Nov 14, 2008, at 4:59 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > You are right in preferring "con artist" to "con man", for gender > reasons. > But I would like you to publish the first 419 email sent from > Nigeria on > this list, to prove that the use of email in conning originated from > Nigeria. > > -- Obododimma. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 10:25:09 -0800 Reply-To: b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nurse handed over $400,000 to web scam despite FBI warning Bobbie Johnson in San Francisco=20 guardian.co.uk, Saturday November 15 2008 00.01 GMT=20 The Guardian, Saturday November 15 2008=20 =C2=A0 An American woman has revealed how she was swindled out of $400,000 (=C2=A3= 269,000) by Nigerian internet fraudsters, in what is believed to be one of = the biggest cases of its kind ever recorded. Janella Spears, a registered nurse from Sweet Home, Oregon, said she starte= d sending money to the scammers in 2005 after she received an email promisi= ng her several million dollars from a long-lost relative. In what is common= ly known as a 419 scam - named after a section of the Nigerian criminal cod= e - the fraudsters randomly contacted Spears over the internet, claiming th= ey would offer her a substantial cut of $20.5m fortune in return for the ca= sh injection which would help move it out of the country. "I kept thinking it's only a couple hundred dollars - I can get it back," s= he told local news. Over a period of two years, the fraudsters strung her a= long and encouraged her to send more payments of up to $14,000 at a time. I= n the end she became obsessed and sent the fraudsters more than $400,000, w= hich she raised by remortgaging her home and spending her husband's retirem= ent savings. Despite advice from bank officials, police and even the FBI that the scheme= was a ruse, Spears said she continued to send cash in the hope of a large = pay-off. Even fake emails claiming to be from the President of Nigeria and = US president George Bush could not dissuade her. "I said how come you're using this non-government address? 'Oh, because our= computer has a worm'," she said. The 419 fraud is one of the most common i= nternet deceptions, and like most similar schemes is reliant on sending mil= lions of spam messages in the hope that they land in the inbox of a gullibl= e victim. Although finding victims requires luck rather than judgement, the incredibl= y low cost of sending email means that such fraud can be highly profitable.= A study by researchers at University of California showed that it took an = average of 12.5m spam emails for each response - but that large operations = sending billions of messages could make as much as =C2=A32m a year.=20 Although Spears is an exception she is far from being alone. Last year Brit= ish police helped crack a similar fraud ring, which was holding fake cheque= s worth more than =C2=A31bn, which had links to groups in the Netherlands a= nd Nigeria. Although it is difficult to calculate the value of such swindles because ma= ny victims are too embarrassed to report the crime, the government has esti= mated that such frauds could cost =C2=A33.5bn a year in Britain alone. Spears claimed she was sharing her story now in order to prevent others fro= m falling victim to similar scams. "You're sitting there going 'how can I f= all for something like that'," she said. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --- On Fri, 14/11/08, Obododimma Oha wrote: From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, 14 November, 2008, 11:07 PM We know the uses of adjectives. If anyone has doubts about the what the modifier "Nigerian" is doing in "Nigerian scams", that person can pick a good grammar book and crosscheck. Moreover, we are talking about language a= s "loaded weapon" here, and as Dwight Bolinger says, what is even more dangerous is to assume that such a weapon is innocuous! -- Obododimma. On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 1:38 AM, George Bowering wrote: > No, it is not a good point. > To say "Nigerian scams" is not to say that scams are necessarily Nigerian. > The very grammar suggests that only some scams are Nigerian. > If we say US gangsters, that is not to say that all gangsters are > USAmericans. > Here's another parallel: if I complain about Meyer Lansky, > that does not make me anti-semitic. > I have received many many scam letters from Nigeria in the last year. > Some from South Africa, too. The latter were South African scam letters. > > gb > > > > On Nov 12, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > Obododimma >> >> That's a very good point. And a very straight one. >> We certainly need to watch out for such prejudice even if it isn't always >> intended. >> I have made such blemishes in the past too. >> >> Aryanil >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Obododimma Oha" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:00 PM >> Subject: Re: David >> >> >> Hi Barry, >>> I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What >>> makes >>> you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the >>> history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and >>> other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades >>> before >>> what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. >>> >>> I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a >>> criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to >>> insult >>> that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we >>> criminalize >>> and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at >>> POETICS? >>> Be well! >>> >>> --- Obododimma Oha. >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < >>> b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: >>> >>> It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and >>>> e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, >>>> stranded >>>> in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. >>>> Needless >>>> to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if >>>> you >>>> get that e-mail, be warned. >>>> >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>>> guidelines >>>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Obododimma Oha >>> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >>> Dept. of English >>> University of Ibadan >>> Nigeria >>> >>> & >>> >>> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >>> University of Ibadan >>> >>> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >>> +234 805 350 6604. >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1784 - Release Date: 11/12/2008 >> 7:01 PM >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> > George Harvey Bowering > Fond of many dead people. > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=20 Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:07:03 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Patrick Dillon Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <9778b8630811141041v2860a5c0v758b2402bfb3e881@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Definitely check out this site for more on 419 and scambaiting, when recipients turn the tables on scammers: http://www.419eater.com/index.htm Ryan Daley wrote: > More on email scams: > > http://archive.salon.com/people/feature/2001/08/07/419scams/print.html > > http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/nigeria.asp > > > > > On 11/12/08, Ryan Daley wrote: > >> It will do, that is, until the artists get angry. >> >> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 7:51 PM, Ryan Daley wrote: >> >> >>> Well, the use of email to scam people originated in Nigeria. The term, 419 >>> Letter Scam, is used because 419 is the Nigerian criminal code designated >>> for email scams. >>> >>> I take offense to use of the term "conman," which seems to imply that all >>> conniving anti-social personalities that seek to remove money from one >>> person's pocket into the pocket of another person who might be more or less >>> deserving of said funds are men. We need to not use "Nigerian" or "con man" >>> to refer to either of these processes/individuals. For now, "con artist" >>> will do. >>> >>> In Barry's defense, if the above cannot be termed so, it seems the email >>> scam did first originate in Nigeria, and still has a more booming business >>> there than certain other countries. The Iraq War is the Iraq War because it >>> takes place in Iraq. >>> >>> -Ryan >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Hi Barry, >>>> I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What >>>> makes >>>> you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the >>>> history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and >>>> other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades >>>> before >>>> what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. >>>> >>>> I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a >>>> criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to >>>> insult >>>> that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we >>>> criminalize >>>> and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at >>>> POETICS? >>>> Be well! >>>> >>>> --- Obododimma Oha. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < >>>> b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into >>>>> >>>> and >>>> >>>>> e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, >>>>> >>>> stranded >>>> >>>>> in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. >>>>> >>>> Needless >>>> >>>>> to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if >>>>> >>>> you >>>> >>>>> get that e-mail, be warned. >>>>> >>>>> ================================== >>>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>>>> >>>> guidelines >>>> >>>>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Obododimma Oha >>>> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >>>> Dept. of English >>>> University of Ibadan >>>> Nigeria >>>> >>>> & >>>> >>>> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >>>> University of Ibadan >>>> >>>> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >>>> +234 805 350 6604. >>>> >>>> ================================== >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 19:56:17 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetics List Subject: The Poetics List -- Welcome Message Reminder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Refocused List Policy In line with our editorial focus, we do not automatically post submissions but select those we think are most useful for sustaining this online community. We appreciate all submissions, but will be more selective in what we choose to post. Queries for contact info, messages intended for just a few subscribers, messages that are not on topic, "flame" messages, and free-standing personal poems or journal entries will, in general, not be forwarded to the list. The Poetics List Sponsored by: The Electronic Poetry Center (SUNY-Buffalo/University of Pennsylvania) and the Regan Chair (Department of English, Penn) & Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing (Penn) Poetics List Editor: Amy King Poetics List Editorial Board: Charles Bernstein, Julia Bloch, Lori Emerson, Amy King, Joel Kuszai, Nick Piombino Note: this Welcome message is also available at the EPC/@Buffalo page http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Poetics Subscription Registration (required) poetics.list --at -- gmail.com Poetics Subscription Requests: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html Poetics Listserv Archive: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html Poetics Post: poetics@listserv.bufallo.edu Note that any correspondence sent to the Poetics List administration account takes about ten days, for response; mail to this account is checked about once per week. C O N T E N T S: 1. About the Poetics List 2. Posting to the List 3. Subscriptions 4. Subscription Options 5. To Unsubscribe 6. Cautions 7. Flaming -------------------------------------------- June 2008: Refocused List Policy In line with our editorial focus, we do not automatically post submissions but select those we think are most useful for sustaining this online community. We appreciate all submissions, but will be more selective in what we choose to post. Queries for contact info, messages intended for just a few subscribers, messages that are not on topic, "flame" messages, and free-standing personal poems or journal entries will, in general, not be forwarded to the list. 1. Posting to the List Our aim is to support, inform, and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible. While we recognize that other lists may sponsor other possibilities for exchange, we request that those participating in this forum keep in mind the specialized and focused nature of this project and respect our decision to operate a moderated list. The Poetics List exists to support and encourage divergent points of view on innovative forms of modern and contemporary poetry and poetics, and we are committed to doing what is necessary to preserve this space for such dialog. The Poetics List is a moderated list. Posts are limited to list subscribers. All messages are reviewed by the editors in keeping with the goals of the list as articulated in this Welcome Message. The listserv is intended to be a productive communal space for discussion and announcements; as such, subscribers who do not follow listserv policy will be removed from the subscription roll. Please note that this list is primarily concerned with discussions of poetry and poetics. We strongly encourage subscribers to post information, including web links, relating to publications (print and internet), reading series, and blogs that they have coordinated, edited or published, or in which they appear. Such announcements constitute a core function of this list. Brief reviews of poetry events and publications (print or digital) are always welcome. The Poetics List is not a forum for a general discussion of poetry or for the exchange of poems. Queres for contact info, messages intended for just a few subscribers, "flame" messages, and free-standing personal poems or journal entries will, in general, not be forwarded to the list. Also, please note that the Poetics List is not a "chat" list and we discourage the posting of very short messages intended for only a few subscribers. Personal queries and off-topic submissions will not be posted. Send messages directly to the list address: poetics@listserv.buffalo.edu. 2. About the Poetics List Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! With the preceding epigraph, the Poetics Listserv was founded by Charles Bernstein in late 1993. Now in its fourth incarnation, the list has over 1500 subscribers worldwide. We also have a substantial number of nonsubscribing readers, who access the list through our web site (see archive URL above). Due to the high number of subscribers, we no longer maintain the open format with which the list began (at under 100 subscribers). Please also note that this is a not a general interest poetry list and information about this list should not be posted to directories of poetry lists. The idea is to keep the list membership to those with specific engagement related to the list's stated orientation. In addition to being archived through the EPC and at the UB Listerv archive, some posts to Poetics (especially reviews, obituary notices, announcements, etc.) may also become part of specific EPC subject areas. Note also that Roof Books published Joel Kuszai's edited collection of the Poetics List; this is available from ROOF and also online at the EPC. 3. Subscriptions *For all subscription requests go to http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html. *To subscribe for the first time click on "Subscribe (join) a List." Immediately following your subscription to the poetics listserv we ask that you email us at poetics.list --at -- gmail.com, subject-line "registration," with your full name, street address, email address, and telephone number. Failure to register at the time of subscription will result in automatic deletion from the subscription roll. *To manage your subscription (for descriptions of the different subscription options please see section 3), click on "Subscriber's Corner." Subscriptions to the Poetics List are free of charge, but formal registration is required. All other questions about subscriptions, whether about an individual subscription or subscription policy, should be addressed to this same administrative address. PLEASE NOTE: All subscription-related information and correspondence remains absolutely confidential. All posts to the list must provide your full real name, as registered. If there is any discrepancy between your full name as it appears in the "from" line of the message header, please sign your post at the bottom. Subscribers who do not include their full name with each post will be unsubscribed from the list. The most frequent problem with subscriptions is bounced messages. If your system is often down or if you have a low disk quota, Poetics messages may get bounced, which will result in your subscription being automatically terminated by the Listserv program and the automatically generated message telling you that this has occurred will also likely bounce. If this happens, you may re-subscribe to the list by the same process described above. One remedy to avoid this happening in the future: set your list options to "no-mail" and read the list on the web. 4. Subscription Options We encourage you to alter your subscription options via the link on the right side of the screen at http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html. If you would prefer not to use the web-interface, you may also email the following commands: *to subscribe to the Poetics listserv send listserv@listserv.buffalo.edu this one-line message with no "subject": sub poetics [your Firstname and Lastname] *RECOMMENDED: if you wish to read the list on our web interface and not receive any messages sent directly, while remaining subscribed to the list and so eligible to send us posts, send this one-line message to with no "subject": set poetics nomail. Note: this option is also useful for temporary suspension of email service. *to reactivate Poetics e-mail send this one-line message with no "subject": set poetics mail * to receive the list in digest form (you will receive the day's individual posts in one email sent just after midnight EST), send this one-line message with no "subject": set poetics digest *to receive posts in the default option (you will receive individual postings immediately), send this one- line message with no "subject": set poetics nodigest * to receive the list in index form (you will receive a list, without the text of the posts, of the subjects discussed each day along with the author's name and address and the number of lines it comprises; you can also choose to have the index sent to you in either plain text or in HTML format with hyperlinks), send this one-line message with no "subject": set poetics nohtml index --or-- set poetics html index PLEASE NOTE: do not leave your Poetics subscription in default or digest mode if you are going to be away for any extended period of time. Your account may become flooded and you may lose Poetics messages as well as other important mail. In such cases, switch your subscription to "nomail" as recommended above. 5. To Unsubscribe To unsubscribe (or change any of your subscription options), again, we strongly encourage you to go to the right-hand side of the screen at http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html You may also may unsubscribe by sending a one-line email to with no "subject": unsub poetics If you are having difficulty unsubscribing, please note: sometimes your e-mail address may be changed slightly by your system administrator. If this happens you will not be able to send messages to Poetics or to unsubscribe, although you will continue to receive mail from the Poetics List. To avoid this problem, unsub using your old address, then resubscribe with your new email address. 6. Cautions In moderating this list, the editors must consider sometimes competing interests. The basis for our decisions, however, rests with our collective judgment about the kind of space we want for the list. All posts not only go out to list subscribers but also become a public part of the list archive on the web. Note that posting to the list is a form of publication and that by sending your message to the list you formally consent to such web publication. Posts are currently being indexed by search engines such as Google. It is not possible for us to remove posts from the list archive or to control search engine indexing of these posts. For reasons of basic security, we do not allow pseudonymous subscriptions. All messages intended for the Poetics List should be sent in Text-Only format, without attachments. We do not accept HTML-formatted messages or attached files. As a general rule, keep individual posts to 1,000 words or less. Please do not publish list postings without the express permission of the author. Posting on the list is a form of publication. Copyright for all material posted on Poetics remains with the author; material from this list and its archive may not be reproduced without the author's permission, beyond the standard rights accorded by "fair use" of published materials. All material on the Poetics List remains the property of the authors; before you reproduce this material, in whole or in part, we ask that you get permission (by email is fine) from the authors. If they give permission, then we ask only that you say that the post or posts appeared originally on the Poetics List (http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html) on [give date and say:] Used by permission of the author. Note: Private correspondence via email and letters are always (c) the author and may not be reproduced in whole or in part without the written permission of the author. As a general rule, we will not publish posts that include such material unless they indicate that permission has been given. We request that posters limit the number of posts they send to the list on any given day. Given that our goal is a manageable list (manageable both for moderators and subscribers), the list accepts 75 or fewer messages per day, though these paramenters may be changed at the discretion of the list moderator. Like all systems, the listserv will sometimes be down: if you feel your message has been delayed or lost, *please wait at least one day to see if it shows up*, then check the archive to be sure the message is not posted there; if you still feel there is a problem, you may wish to contact the editors at . 7. Flaming "Flame" messages will not be tolerated on the Poetics List. We define 'flaming' as any post that resembles a personal attack or personal insult to anyone--subscriber or not. This, of course, includes racist, sexist, or other slurs as well as ad hominem arguments in which the person rather than their work is attacked; in other words while critique of a person's work is welcome (critical inquiry is one of the main functions of the list), this critique cannot extend to a critique or criticism of the person. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 10:42:04 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Events at The Poetry Project November In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I've never read at the Poetry Project before and i'm really looking forward= s to it. I have new work. Hopefully i'll see some of you there. love and love cris On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Poetry Project wro= te: > Here=B9s what we have coming up at The Poetry Project . . . > > > Monday, November 17, 8 PM > Suzanne Stein & Ann Stephenson > > Suzanne Stein is a poet. Her work has appeared in Bay Poetics, War & Peac= e > 3, Mirage Periodical, Both Both, Commonweal, New Langton Arts, the San > Francisco Exploratorium, Artists Television Access, and elsewhere. Two of > several projects forthcoming this year: a chapbook, Passenger Ship, from > Ypolita press, and Signs of Life from O Books. Former co-director and fil= m > curator at four walls gallery, she works currently as community producer = at > SFMOMA. Suzanne is editor and publisher of the small press TAXT, and she > lives in Oakland. Ann Stephenson is the author of the chapbook Wirework > (Tent Editions, 2006). Her manuscript, The Poles, was a finalist for the > 2008 Bateau Press BOOM Chapbook Series. Her poems have recently appeared = or > are forthcoming in The Brooklyn Rail, Coconut, Combo, Forklift, > MIRAGE#4/PERIOD(ical), Saint Elizabeth Street, Sal Mimeo, Shampoo, Shifte= r > and TYPO. She received her MFA from Bard College in 2007 and currently > divides her time between Atlanta and New York City. > > > Wednesday, November 19, 8 PM > Bruce Andrews & cris cheek > > Bruce Andrews is a performance artist, poet and founding co-editor of the > journal L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3DE, he is the author of over 30 books = of poetry and a > collection of innovative critical essays, has published poetry and > criticism > widely, and has been the subject of numerous critical articles over the > past > several years. Books of poetry and performance scores include Lip Service > (Coach House Press, 2001), a recasting of Dante=B9s Paradiso =8B [Jacket = 22, > online, contains a symposium on this text]. The Millennium Project, a > thousand-page sequence, is online (along with earlier chapbooks from the > 1970s) on Craig Dworkin=B9s Eclipse site. Three most recent books of poet= ry: > Swoon Noir (from Chax), Designated Heartbeat (from Salt), and Co > (collaborative =8Cduet=B9 texts with Jessica Grim, Yedda Morrison, Kim > Rosenfield, Jesse Freeman & Barbara Cole (from Roof). Andrews has taught > Political Science at Fordham University since moving to New York City in > 1975 =8B with a focus on global capitalism, U.S. imperialism, the politic= s of > communication, conspiracy theory, and covert politics. In New York City, = he > has also been involved in a long series of collaborative multi-media > theatrical projects and performances. As composer, sound designer & live > mixer, since the mid 1980s, he has been Music Director for Sally Silvers = & > Dancers. cris cheek is a poet, book maker, sound artist, mixed-media > practitioner and interdisciplinary performer. He is renowned as a British > poet, most associated with the London poets of the 1980s and 1990s, but h= as > strong connections to poetries in the US too and is currently living and > working in the Ohio River Valley. cheek's texts have been commissioned an= d > shown internationally, often in multiple versions using diverse media for > their production and circulation. There are two important long-term > collaborations. One with the Welsh composer and voice "banshee" Sianed > Jones > in groups such as Slant (with Philip Jeck); their book/cd Songs From > Navigation (Reality Street 1998) documents one aspect of that work. A > further full body of near decade-long collaboration(s) with Kirsten Laver= s > as TNWK is now mothballed at www.tnwk.net. His first solo book for some > time > the church, the school, the beer was published last year by Critical > Documents (2007). A major retrospective book and DVD is forthcoming from > The > Gig. > > > Friday, November 21, 10 PM > Poets' Potluck III > > Natives and newcomers alike join the Three Sisters (the harvest; or Diana= , > Nicole, and Corrine) for a giving of thanks, foods, poetry, music, and > autumnal beverages. A two-time staple of last-year=B9s series, the night = will > again feature performances by many and food by everyone so inclined. Grab > your canned pumpkin, plastic cool whip containers, and blue-lined > notebooks, > and pilgrim your way over. If you=B9d like to participate, email > poetryprojectfridays (at) gmail (dot) com. > > Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php > > Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php > > The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery > 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue > New York City 10003 > Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. > info@poetryproject.com > www.poetryproject.com > > Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now > those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all > regular readings). > > We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance > notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. > > If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a = line > at info@poetryproject.com. > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:12:55 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Check out Jane Augustine's "A Woman's Guide to Mountain Climbing" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From Eileen Tabios: ________________________________ From: ERTABIOS@aol.com [mailto:ERTABIOS@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 8:28 PM To: amcintos@optonline.net; AugustineJane@cs.com; tafink@verizon.net; Kimme= lman, Burt Subject: Check out Jane Augustine's "A Woman's Guide to Mountain Climbing" Click here: Jane Augustine's "A Woman's Guide to Mountain Climbing" | Books= & Writers | New West Network There's a lovely review of Jane's book here at New West. I'm about to blog= it but thought to raise it to your attention in case you didn't know... Eileen =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 17:57:34 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: David Comments: To: Stephen Vincent In-Reply-To: <662417.63523.qm@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE dear stephen, i'm really glad you wrote this response. i've had similar experiences in hawai'i, and i know it's particularly hard to see one's own slant when it's in the face. i so often meet people who just want to go to hawai'i and think they're being called there and completely don't understand the impact of all the non-hawaiians pouring in and taking over land, spirituality, water, etc. it's very hard for hawaiians to make a go of it in/on their own land because it's so beautiful and such an intense place that it just seems "right" for all of us to want to be in paradise. no paradise when thousands of hawaiians are homeless, living on the beaches and in the parks, and the military rules over all. there's a huge diaspora too--both to places like vegas and in mainland prisons. yuk. anyway, it's easy to overlook what it feels like for the people who are inside the characterization we're making for them/of them. maybe "it's just an adjective"--but so what? if it feels like a stab because of all colonial past and present history, tis so. what's to justify? blessings, g Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Fri, 14 Nov 2008, Stephen Vincent wrote: > I taught in Nigeria for two years way way back. I am still in close > contact with former Nigerian students, and friends from the time. I > personally get offended when I hear "Nigerian scam" or variations on > that. For a moment, when it became vogue-ish to indulge that > characterization, it gave me the impression that the whole country had > been taken over by these Internet wielding scam 'artists' - which I just > as suddenly was stupid and highly prejudicial, dismissive, etc. > > Maybe human nature? Maybe most countries are looking at the USA and > reducing us down to a cast of greedy unscrupulous banker/mortgage > broker/ real estate predators?? > > Nigeria - its pleasures and real disturbances (corrupt practices by some > included) is much more interesting country than that easy reductive=A0 > 'scam' slight.=A0 =A0 > > Humorously, the Nigerian students on the Nsukka campus where I taught, > would call, in Pidgin English, the few Albino students "Peace > Corpsees."=A0 (No, I did not interpet that to mean I was a 'dead man > walking'!) > > Better than a "Bushie" - I suspect. > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > --- On Fri, 11/14/08, Obododimma Oha wrote: > From: Obododimma Oha > Subject: Re: David > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 3:07 PM > > We know the uses of adjectives. If anyone has doubts about the what the > modifier "Nigerian" is doing in "Nigerian scams", that > person can pick a > good grammar book and crosscheck. Moreover, we are talking about language= as > "loaded weapon" here, and as Dwight Bolinger says, what is even more > dangerous is to assume that such a weapon is innocuous! > > -- Obododimma. > > > On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 1:38 AM, George Bowering wrote: > > > No, it is not a good point. > > To say "Nigerian scams" is not to say that scams are necessarily > Nigerian. > > The very grammar suggests that only some scams are Nigerian. > > If we say US gangsters, that is not to say that all gangsters are > > USAmericans. > > Here's another parallel: if I complain about Meyer Lansky, > > that does not make me anti-semitic. > > I have received many many scam letters from Nigeria in the last year. > > Some from South Africa, too. The latter were South African scam letters= =2E > > > > gb > > > > > > > > On Nov 12, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > > > Obododimma > >> > >> That's a very good point. And a very straight one. > >> We certainly need to watch out for such prejudice even if it isn't > always > >> intended. > >> I have made such blemishes in the past too. > >> > >> Aryanil > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Obododimma Oha" > > >> To: > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:00 PM > >> Subject: Re: David > >> > >> > >> Hi Barry, > >>> I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* > scams"! What > >>> makes > >>> you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to > read the > >>> history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al > Capone and > >>> other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many > decades > >>> before > >>> what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. > >>> > >>> I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America > (as a > >>> criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", > unless I mean to > >>> insult > >>> that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we > >>> criminalize > >>> and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the > netiquette at > >>> POETICS? > >>> Be well! > >>> > >>> --- Obododimma Oha. > >>> > >>> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < > >>> b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been > hacked into and > >>>> e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from > him, > >>>> stranded > >>>> in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately > wired. > >>>> Needless > >>>> to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian > scams... So if > >>>> you > >>>> get that e-mail, be warned. > >>>> > >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > >>>> guidelines > >>>> & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Obododimma Oha > >>> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > >>> Dept. of English > >>> University of Ibadan > >>> Nigeria > >>> > >>> & > >>> > >>> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > >>> University of Ibadan > >>> > >>> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > >>> +234 805 350 6604. > >>> > >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > >> > >> > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1784 - Release Date: > 11/12/2008 > >> 7:01 PM > >> > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > > George Harvey Bowering > > Fond of many dead people. > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:40:15 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Fw: this is really important and URGENT, dear NY art friends.... (fwd) In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i am wondering how real these budget shortfalls/deficits are. maggie thatcher did a lot to destroy the socialist support system in england. i don't think she claimed they were going bankrupt if they kept the system sound, though. these claims of impending financial doom, etc., for some reason make me think that there's support system destruction going on, not because of financial doom but because we're being jacked back into the oligarchy jack london was writing about in _the iron heel_. nasty thought, but it keeps popping into my mind. all best, gabe Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Sat, 15 Nov 2008, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > Date: Saturday, November 15, 2008, 9:23 AM > > and today is the day to do it--they vote on MONDAY > > > > Click here: > > http://capwiz.com/artsusa/ny/issues/alert/?alertid=12191871&type=ML > > > > > > ACT NOW!!! > > The Governor proposes cutting the remaining New York State > > Council on the Arts budget. > > > > We only have 2 days to make our voices heard because the > > special legislative session convenes on November 18. > > > > The Legislature will consider the Governor's proposed > > cuts, including an additional $7 million to the current arts > > budget. This could mean that almost 400 grantees in the > > October cycle and a similar number in the December cycle > > would receive almost nothing. The inequities are staggering. > > > > The Governor's proposal comes on top of $2.6 (6%) > > already cut out of the State Arts Council budget a short > > time ago--- thereby reducing NYSCA's budget by about 20% > > from $49 million to $39 million mid-year. > > > > The Governor called the special legislative session to deal > > with the additional shortfall in the CURRENT year. His > > proposed plan is a comprehensive, two-year $5.2 billion > > deficit reduction plan that he says will entirely eliminate > > the State's $1.5 billion current-year shortfall. > > > > The Legislature can alter the "cut list" and make > > different recommendations. The Governor proposed significant > > cuts to all sectors, so let your legislators know that the > > tiny savings they gain from the arts cut pales in comparison > > to the resulting social and economic losses in communities > > across the State. > > > > WE KNOW GRASS ROOTS ORGANIZING WORKS. Send an email now. It > > takes 2 minutes. > > > > Click here: > > http://capwiz.com/artsusa/ny/issues/alert/?alertid=12191871&type=ML > > > > > > to send an email to your legislators. > > > > Forward this email to every support of the arts you know. > > We need to FLOOD Albany with thousands of emails in the next > > few days. > > > > > > P.S. from Su--sorry for double postings, and no need to > > reply (unless to ask that I not send you these sorts of > > things) > > > > -- Su Friedrich > > 118 North 11th Street > > Brooklyn, NY 11211 > > (718) 599-7601 > > (917) 620-6765 > > http://www.sufriedrich.com > > > > "I don't want to achieve immortality through my > > work. I want to achieve it through not dying." > > --Woody Allen > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:59:04 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, This way any poem is reduced to a statement describing the process which will produce it. The concept itself, the concept itself as potential, rather than its actualization, is the poem. This way what is infinite in potential, becomes infinitely concise. Do you mean something like this Jim? Ciao, Murat On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 2:08 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > I thought this was pretty interesting: > "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" > http://infinityskitchen.com/blog/oulipo-documentar > > three videos. > > nothing you wouldn't get from a reading of the oulipo compendium, but there > it is in video on the web very easy. > > the constraint, not the application of the constraint. > > more interested in potenintructions which crea to to the tial/poetential > literature than in the application > of the constraint, i.e., 'the thing itself'. > > i think that's at the core of it. > > a very useful idea/aesthetic. > > to me, that's 'conceptual literature' in the best sense of that term. > > not exactly 'content is king'. > > unless we think of the content of the concept. then it is. but in a very > different way. > > the content of the concept? > > yes, everything it implies and all its atmospheres. is it a one-liner or > does it have roots and legs and generative fecundity. > > ja > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:42:46 -0800 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: David - in reponse to both Bowering & Obododimma MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I wanna say that a certain level of parochialism comes out in these most recent responses to Obododimma's reply. Just think about what this first term means for a second. Next, I wanna say that given George's almost fetishizing of the expression "USAmerican," I'm more than bit surprised at both his reaction and tone, and most certainly because he has almost demanded that we take note of his own sensitivitiy (as, apparently, an other). While I do not think it my responsibility to be overly concerned about anyone's sensitivities, certainly any more than to presuppose the credibility/reliability of narrative, I do, however, think it important to listen. Without engaging in one-up-manship, I have NEVER been called anything but an American in my extensive travels (which is to say, at least privately, I think these folks pushing this expression are harping on a non-issue. Can I say: "harping"). But, and this is my point, I have managed to listen. Alex ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 23:13:08 -0500 Reply-To: Jeff Hansen Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jeff Hansen Subject: EXPERIMENTAL FICTION AND POETRY -- WHAT'S NEW? Comments: To: olivejuice19@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO BE DROPPED FROM THIS MAIL LIST, PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH A SIMPLE "REMOVE" IN THE SUBJECT LINE. NO EXPLANATION NECESSARY. EXPERIMENTAL FICTION AND POETRY -- WHAT'S NEW? An interview with the great jazz pianist Marilyn Crispell should be up any day now! 1. AN INTERVIEW WITH LANCE OLSEN, AUTHOR OF Nietzsche's Kisses and publisher of FC2 2. Interviews with three of the contributors to Wreckage of Reason, an anthology of experimental writing by women: Lidia Yuknavitch, Diane DiBlasi, Kass Fleisher. 3. Discussion of a day at the Walker Art Center: Tetsumi Kudo, Pierre Huyghe, Samuel Delaney 4. A reviw of A.B. Spellman's first book of poetry (Spellman is best known as a jazz critic, author of 4 Lives in the Bebop Business) ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 21:04:39 -0800 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: ** THIS ONE Re: David - in reponse to both Bowering & Obododimm In-Reply-To: <9778b8630811152023k5ad35093i4bb7f56fca781702@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think I said something about listening and parochialism - to repeat the purpose of my post with deference. The fact that in 30 countries, including those visited in South and Central America, six of the 30 in which I have lived and worked, aged 39, today in China, not anyone has ever called me a USAmerican does not displease me - esp given the Western hemisphere was merely a playground for colonialism during the creation of the US and the nation state. I don't mind being called something else, certainly - Yank works...Kiwi, too, but then it has already been taken, and so has Canadian. It seems disturbing, getting back to my point, that three things have been missed among the remarks made: 1- Obododimm's remark informs and doesn't warrant such attacks (Hey, how about we call those in the US warmongers, Jesus freaks, Frankenstinian, know-it-alls with no capacity to control their arrogance, spiritually fat...because it seems true, at least in most superficial way. Then, too, we could make some nasty generalizations related to white folks - about how they tend to think they have the right to talk for or talk down to --) 2- That David could have written that e-mail (and I have known him for more than 15 years). I suppose we'll hear from him soon. 3- By being so parochial, you are basically shaping discourse to meet your own needs, not that of a greater literary community that extends outside. Too, we don't always know what we need. Best, Alex --- On Sun, 11/16/08, Ryan Daley wrote: From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: David - in reponse to both Bowering & Obododimm To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Cc: POETICS@listserv.buffalo.edu Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 5:23 AM So..with all the "harping," which "harping" is preferred, the harping support or harping condemnation of the term? On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 8:42 PM, Alexander Jorgensen wrote: I wanna say that a certain level of parochialism comes out in these most recent responses to Obododimma's reply. Just think about what this first term means for a second. Next, I wanna say that given George's almost fetishizing of the expression "USAmerican," I'm more than bit surprised at both his reaction and tone, and most certainly because he has almost demanded that we take note of his own sensitivitiy (as, apparently, an other). While I do not think it my responsibility to be overly concerned about anyone's sensitivities, certainly any more than to presuppose the credibility/reliability of narrative, I do, however, think it important to listen. Without engaging in one-up-manship, I have NEVER been called anything but an American in my extensive travels (which is to say, at least privately, I think these folks pushing this expression are harping on a non-issue. Can I say: "harping"). But, and this is my point, I have managed to listen. Alex ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 00:28:29 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: David - in reponse to both Bowering & Obododim Comments: To: storagebag001@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <351040.95930.qm@web56806.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think if you look back at my initial post, you'll see that my intention was to argue the point that the term wasn't meant to offend, and wasn't offensive, though taking into account that we are bound to disagree. Most here have lived and visited other countries for what I'm sure are extensive periods of time, and thus know what being both a social and racial minority might be like. Many of these same travelers have probably found themselves part of marginalized communities of any kind, and might understand the problem of grouping, stereotyping and prejudice -- with firsthand knowledge that it really does hurt all involved, of course, when we find that our dear friends are the brunt of any type of colonialist (or any other type) subjugation through language. I don't think anyone here would disagree. In that regard, it's unnecessary to point out that Americans are often slurred in other countries. This, in fact, shows the ignorance of many that claim to be superior to Americans. Nevertheless, this is a different matter altogether, as it would be if we called all Nigerians "scam email writers"; however, being called a warmonger implies that a person is actively involved or supportive of a call to war, and thus it seems reductive to claim that all Americans, just by the token of their being Americans, are warmongers. But terming a response as "shaping discourse" allows you to respond and thus "shape discourse" while dismissing, or giving others reasons to dismiss, the comments they feel "shape discourse" in a way that they don't want it shaped. I'm all for shaping the discourse, as long as others have that same latitude. And they do, and have, shaped it. I won't claim the conversation is legit only when it goes the way I feel is fair and just. But this conversation so far relates to emails, spam and scam in the form of the 419 letter. Whether David composed this letter or not is moot: it's what got the discussion going...parochial or otherwise. And so...the 419 Letter: As 419 is a term that refers to the law in the Nigerian criminal code. Since there was a need to create this code in Nigeria, it seems there was a problem there with email scams. Never has anyone stated that all scams or cons have come from Nigeria. This would be silly. But...since it's 419 Letters we're talking about and since these letters come from Nigeria...we either call them Nigerian email scams, 419 Letters, or the less specific and much less accurate, scam emails. Call it what you want. The syntax and goal of the email is the same, no matter where the letters originates. But at least we know what criminal code they're breaking in Nigeria... On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 11:55 PM, Alexander Jorgensen < storagebag001@yahoo.com> wrote: > I think I said something about listening and parochialism - to repeat the > purpose of my post with deference. The fact that in 30 countries, including > those visited in South and Central America, six of the 30 in which I have > lived and worked, aged 39, today in China, not anyone has ever called me a > USAmerican does not displease me - esp given the Western hemisphere was > merely a playground for colonialism during the creation of the US and the > nation state. I don't mind being called something else, certainly - Yank > works...Kiwi, too, but then it has already been taken, and so has Canadian. > > It seems disturbing, getting back to my point, that three things have been > missed among the remarks made: > > 1- Obododimm's remark informs and doesn't warrant such attacks (Hey, how > about we call those in the US warmongers, jesus freaks, Frankenstinian, > know-it-alls with no capacit to control their arrogance, spiritually > fat...because it seems true, at least in most superficial way. Then, too, we > could make some nasty generalizations related to white folks about they tend > to think they have the right to talk for or talk down to...as in their > minority hands they actually hold the keys to the proverbial kingdom) > > and > > 2- That David could have written that e-mail (and I have known him for more > than 15 years). Now, David has yet to respond to this list. > > lastly > > 3- By being so parochial, you are basically shaping discourse to meet your > own needs, not that of a greater literary community that extends outside. > Too, we don't always know what we need. > > Best, > Alex > > > > > --- On *Sun, 11/16/08, Ryan Daley * wrote: > > From: Ryan Daley > Subject: Re: David - in reponse to both Bowering & Obododimm > To: storagebag001@yahoo.com > Cc: POETICS@listserv.buffalo.edu > Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 5:23 AM > > So..with all the "harping," which "harping" is preferred, the harping > support or harping condemnation of the term? > > On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 8:42 PM, Alexander Jorgensen < > storagebag001@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> I wanna say that a certain level of parochialism comes out in these most >> recent responses to Obododimma's reply. Just think about what this first >> term means for a second. >> >> Next, I wanna say that given George's almost fetishizing of the expression >> "USAmerican," I'm more than bit surprised at both his reaction and tone, and >> most certainly because he has almost demanded that we take note of his own >> sensitivitiy (as, apparently, an other). >> >> While I do not think it my responsibility to be overly concerned about >> anyone's sensitivities, certainly any more than to presuppose the >> credibility/reliability of narrative, I do, however, think it important to >> listen. Without engaging in one-up-manship, I have NEVER been called >> anything but an American in my extensive travels (which is to say, at least >> privately, I think these folks pushing this expression are harping on a >> non-issue. Can I say: "harping"). But, and this is my point, I have managed >> to listen. >> >> Alex >> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 07:05:30 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Always wild, words unwind: the wildverse of mIEKAL aND Comments: To: Theory and Writing , webartery@yahoogroups.com, British & Irish poets , spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, fluxlist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Always wild, words unwind: the wildverse of mIEKAL aND http://www.vimeo.com/2254233 C. Merhl Bennett questions mIEKAL aND 30 minute documentary interview on site in the gardens of Dreamtime Village. Published in The Madhatter Review #10 madhattersreview.com/issue10/index.shtml Video by Camille Bacos driftlessmedia.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 04:05:37 -0800 Reply-To: afieled@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Eileen Tabios MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out exciting new work from Eileen Tabios on PFS Post: =A0 http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com =A0 Keep Warm, =A0Adam=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:22:17 -0800 Reply-To: rcmgt@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Rosalie Calabrese Subject: Reading announcement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rosalie Calabrese=A0poetry reading: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 7:30 PM=20 Perch Cafe=20 365 Fifth Avenue=20 Park Slope, Brooklyn, NY=A0 (F train to Seventh Avenue)=20 No admission; $5.00 minimum food/drink for further info, call (718)788-2830 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:28:42 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo Newsletter 11.17.08-11.23.08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII LITERARY BUFFALO 11.17.08-11.23.08 EVENTS THIS WEEK Visit the Literary Buffalo calendar at www.justbuffalo.org for more detaile= d info on these events. All events free and open to the pubic unless other= wise noted. 11.18.08 Just Buffalo/Talking Leaves...Books Short Story Masters: A Literary Salon, Module 1: Alice Munro Hosted by Greg Gerke Tuesday, November 18, 6:30 PM Talking Leaves?Books, 3158 Main St. Talking Leaves...Books/Jewish Community Book Fair Roger Bennett Reading/signing: 3 Books on Joys of Jewish Culture Tuesday, November 18, 7:30 PM Temple Sinai, 50 Alberta Dr., Amherst Poetics Plus =40 UB Ted Greenwald Poetry Reading Tuesday, November 18, 8:00 PM Karpeles Manuscript Museum, 453 Porter Ave. 11.19.08 Just Buffalo Spotlight on Youth Open Mic Open Mic for Ages 12-21: Bring All Art Forms=21 Wednesday, November 19, 6:30 PM Hallwalls Cinema, 341 Delaware Ave. =40 Tupper Talking Leaves...Books Gregory Lamberson Reading/Signing for: Cheap Scares=21 Wednesday, November 19, 7:00 PM Talking Leaves...Books, 3158 Main St. 11.20.08 Just Buffalo/Small Press Poetry Series Elaine Equi and Jerome Sala Poetry Reading Thursday, November 20, 7:00 PM Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. Talking Leaves...Books Paul Krehbiel Book signing for Shades of Justice Thursday, November 20, 7:00 PM Talking Leaves Books, 3158 Main St. 11.21.08 Poetics Plus at UB (co)ludere IV: =22The Last Coming=22 Margaret Konkol & Stephanie Farrar; Ekrem Serdar & Jonathan Golove; A. J. P= atrick Liszkiewicz & Virginia M. Heatter & Two Mystery Acts* Friday, November 21, 7 PM Rust Belt Books 11.23.08 Rust Belt Books Before the Swallow Readings By Marten Clibbens, Douglas Manson and David Tirrell Sunday, November 23, 4:00 PM Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. ___________________________________________________________________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBER WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP http://www.justbuffalo.org/docs/Writer_Critique_Group.pdf ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i= mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 21:33:11 -0800 Reply-To: csgiscombe@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "c. s. giscombe" Subject: Coultas, Gaydos, Giscombe, Ketz, Reyes, Wamsley on the radio Sunday afternoon In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Join us in another experiment in radio and poetry and song on Sunday, 16 No= vember, from 4 to 6 pm (Pacific time). Berkeley poets Rebecca Gaydos, C. S. Giscombe, Charity Ketz, Robert Reyes, = and Rachel Wamsley will read poems and think aloud about poetry and the =E2= =80=9Cproblem=E2=80=9D of location. They=E2=80=99ll be joined, via telepho= ne, by Brenda Coultas in New York. The place is Brian =E2=80=9CSwervin=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D Kirven=E2=80=99s Rhyt= hm and Muse show on KWMR in Point Reyes Station, California. Tune in, if y= ou=E2=80=99re in Marin County, at 90.5 or 89.7. Or listen on the Web by go= ing to http://www.kwmr.org/index.html and clicking on the =E2=80=9COn Air= =E2=80=9D logo at the top of the page, just under the cow. The show will be live and, as usual, unpredictable. Listen in and take part= =E2=80=94do add your voice to the conversation. Telephone the station Sund= ay afternoon at 415-663-8492 or 415-663-8317.=20 We'll be doing just one more show with KWMR this fall=E2=80=94on the 30th o= f November. Watch for the announcement. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 00:09:25 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0811151759m297a51efr245a785cfe64311f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wasn't attempting to make a statement about 'any poem', really, =20 Murat. I doubt that what I said applies well to 'any poem' but, =20 rather, to a certain approach to poetry. In the same way that =20 statements about conceptual art, say, might not apply very well to =20 other types of art. I don't think it's a matter of reducing poems to statements describing =20 the processes which produced them. Instead, it's a matter of =20 introducing a dimension to poetry which is interesting and, once =20 understood and appreciated, allows people to enjoy various classes of =20 poetry that, before, may have seemed deficient by other standards. For =20 instance, N+7, simply as a text unto itself, without reference to not =20 only the process that produced it but its place in history and why it =20 has that place in history, might seem to enjoy notoriety without =20 merit. As though what has merit must fulfill the criteria of the poemy =20 poem devoid of concept, in this sense. Which, itself, can be viewed as =20 a reduction of poetry, a refusal of dimensions such as the conceptual. It needn't be one or the other, of course. They aren't really articles =20 of faith. ja http://vispo.com Quoting Murat Nemet-Nejat : > Jim, > > This way any poem is reduced to a statement describing the process which > will produce it. The concept itself, the concept itself as potential, rath= er > than its actualization, is the poem. This way what is infinite in potentia= l, > becomes infinitely concise. > > Do you mean something like this Jim? > > Ciao, > > Murat =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:16:06 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David Comments: To: b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com In-Reply-To: <862424.83712.qm@web65101.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline We have been reading such narratives, Barry. Two things you need to know: both the American lady (Janeila Spears) and the con artists are united in a criminal attempt at enriching themselves. The con artists (as tricksters -- I take a folkloric approach to the narrative) merely succeeded in outwittin= g Spears. If I were a judge, I would certainly give spears a sentence. Second= , there is the role of the mediation of this kind of narrative, and perhaps a= n attempt to harvest from existing narratives that conform to the Western ide= a of what constitutes "news" from the periphery, specifically the Third World= . This orientation in global reporting has been studied extensively, but perhaps you may wish to read Johann Galtung. We are scholars and we need to analyze these narratives for what they may b= e worth, and not consume them like the ordinary public. Regards. Obododimma. On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Barry Schwabsky < b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > Nurse handed over $400,000 to web scam despite FBI warning > > > Bobbie Johnson in San Francisco > guardian.co.uk, Saturday November 15 2008 00.01 GMT > The Guardian, Saturday November 15 2008 > > > An American woman has revealed how she was swindled out of $400,000 > (=A3269,000) by Nigerian internet fraudsters, in what is believed to be o= ne of > the biggest cases of its kind ever recorded. > Janella Spears, a registered nurse from Sweet Home, Oregon, said she > started sending money to the scammers in 2005 after she received an email > promising her several million dollars from a long-lost relative. In what = is > commonly known as a 419 scam - named after a section of the Nigerian > criminal code - the fraudsters randomly contacted Spears over the interne= t, > claiming they would offer her a substantial cut of $20.5m fortune in retu= rn > for the cash injection which would help move it out of the country. > "I kept thinking it's only a couple hundred dollars - I can get it back," > she told local news. Over a period of two years, the fraudsters strung he= r > along and encouraged her to send more payments of up to $14,000 at a time= . > In the end she became obsessed and sent the fraudsters more than $400,000= , > which she raised by remortgaging her home and spending her husband's > retirement savings. > Despite advice from bank officials, police and even the FBI that the sche= me > was a ruse, Spears said she continued to send cash in the hope of a large > pay-off. Even fake emails claiming to be from the President of Nigeria an= d > US president George Bush could not dissuade her. > "I said how come you're using this non-government address? 'Oh, because o= ur > computer has a worm'," she said. The 419 fraud is one of the most common > internet deceptions, and like most similar schemes is reliant on sending > millions of spam messages in the hope that they land in the inbox of a > gullible victim. > Although finding victims requires luck rather than judgement, the > incredibly low cost of sending email means that such fraud can be highly > profitable. A study by researchers at University of California showed tha= t > it took an average of 12.5m spam emails for each response - but that larg= e > operations sending billions of messages could make as much as =A32m a yea= r. > Although Spears is an exception she is far from being alone. Last year > British police helped crack a similar fraud ring, which was holding fake > cheques worth more than =A31bn, which had links to groups in the Netherla= nds > and Nigeria. > Although it is difficult to calculate the value of such swindles because > many victims are too embarrassed to report the crime, the government has > estimated that such frauds could cost =A33.5bn a year in Britain alone. > Spears claimed she was sharing her story now in order to prevent others > from falling victim to similar scams. "You're sitting there going 'how ca= n I > fall for something like that'," she said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 14/11/08, Obododimma Oha wrote: > > From: Obododimma Oha > Subject: Re: David > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Friday, 14 November, 2008, 11:07 PM > > We know the uses of adjectives. If anyone has doubts about the what the > modifier "Nigerian" is doing in "Nigerian scams", that > person can pick a > good grammar book and crosscheck. Moreover, we are talking about language > as > "loaded weapon" here, and as Dwight Bolinger says, what is even more > dangerous is to assume that such a weapon is innocuous! > > -- Obododimma. > > > On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 1:38 AM, George Bowering wrote: > > > No, it is not a good point. > > To say "Nigerian scams" is not to say that scams are necessarily > Nigerian. > > The very grammar suggests that only some scams are Nigerian. > > If we say US gangsters, that is not to say that all gangsters are > > USAmericans. > > Here's another parallel: if I complain about Meyer Lansky, > > that does not make me anti-semitic. > > I have received many many scam letters from Nigeria in the last year. > > Some from South Africa, too. The latter were South African scam letters= . > > > > gb > > > > > > > > On Nov 12, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > > > Obododimma > >> > >> That's a very good point. And a very straight one. > >> We certainly need to watch out for such prejudice even if it isn't > always > >> intended. > >> I have made such blemishes in the past too. > >> > >> Aryanil > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Obododimma Oha" > > >> To: > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:00 PM > >> Subject: Re: David > >> > >> > >> Hi Barry, > >>> I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* > scams"! What > >>> makes > >>> you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to > read the > >>> history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al > Capone and > >>> other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many > decades > >>> before > >>> what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. > >>> > >>> I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America > (as a > >>> criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", > unless I mean to > >>> insult > >>> that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we > >>> criminalize > >>> and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the > netiquette at > >>> POETICS? > >>> Be well! > >>> > >>> --- Obododimma Oha. > >>> > >>> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < > >>> b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been > hacked into and > >>>> e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from > him, > >>>> stranded > >>>> in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately > wired. > >>>> Needless > >>>> to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian > scams... So if > >>>> you > >>>> get that e-mail, be warned. > >>>> > >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > >>>> guidelines > >>>> & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Obododimma Oha > >>> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > >>> Dept. of English > >>> University of Ibadan > >>> Nigeria > >>> > >>> & > >>> > >>> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > >>> University of Ibadan > >>> > >>> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > >>> +234 805 350 6604. > >>> > >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > >> > >> > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1784 - Release Date: > 11/12/2008 > >> 7:01 PM > >> > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > > George Harvey Bowering > > Fond of many dead people. > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=20 Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:43:32 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Fwd: David In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I sent the mail below directly to Tom Savage, but would like to share it with members on the list, because I am concerned with how some of us who use web-based mail become vulnerable to scammers. Regards to all. Obododimma. ----------------------- Hello Tom, I have just returned to Namibia after a week-long conference in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. We will explore this issue further much later. It may interest you that I have been keeping most of those scam mails in a folder, hoping to do a more extended study of the criminal rhetoric that they represent. I received the scam mail in question three years ago from Turkey, and was asked to send money to Dr Mustapha, a Sudanese scholar I met at a conference in Gabon. The narrative is the same: he is stranded in Turkey and I should quickly send him some dollars! Mustapha and I became close friends when we met at that conference because I was impressed at the way he analyzed and criticized the Sudanese junta. So, I was almost tempted to run to his rescue but had to analyze the mail and tried to get in touch with him. A day later, a Chinese scholar who attended that conference wrote, telling me he got a similar mail from Mustapha. I was able to get in touch with Mustapha and found that he did not send the mail and did not even have access to his mail account. As you would see, that mail did not come from Africa or Nigeria. There are a number of cyber-oriented con artists out there (Africans, Americans, Asians, etc) who use all kinds of tricks to gain access to web-based mails. One major way is that of sending encrypted web-links inviting you to this or that web membership or free service. Once you click, your account becomes vulnerable. Many of us do not seem to recognize that web-based emails are particularly insecure and we are sometimes carried away by the desire to be part of many things hapening on the web. David should count himself lucky that it was not a case of his account being used to send a mail oriented to terrorist activity! He would have had a lot to explain to the police! I need to take a shower and sleep off the jet lag. Regards, Obododimma. On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 9:06 PM, Thomas savage wrote: > I'm not sure how to reply to this, Obodidimma, but I will try. There is no > doubt in my mind that when I see one of these requests on line and it > happens to come from Africa that I do think of it as "African" but I do not > think of all communications from Africa as necessarily being of this type. > I may have a predisposition based on experience but not a prejudice, I > hope. As I am aware that many of the emails I have received of this sort > come from elsewhere or claim to come from elsewhere, it becomes more than an > issue of African identity. Critical thinking? I hope so. Logical, also. > But a habit pattern of thought, definitely. I have known of one instance > where a poet I know responded to one of these "scams" I don't know where it > originated from and someone at the other end of the scam tried to withdraw a > large amount from her bank account using whatever information she supplied > which made this possible. Fortunately, she went to the bank and was able to > head off the effects of her error. But it was my learning of this series of > events which has made me be very careful when dealing with any of these > suspicious emails which I still get once in a while and mostly don't even > bother to open or read. Regards, Tom Savage > > --- On *Fri, 11/14/08, Obododimma Oha * wrote: > > From: Obododimma Oha > Subject: Re: David > To: tsavagebar@yahoo.com > Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 6:42 PM > > > Yes, Tom, some of them are from Africa, but that has not led you to > identify scams of that sort as "African scams". Even for the sake of logical > reasoning? Let's say the politics of meaning no longer interests us (which > would be surprising though!), at least we want our writing to agree with the > principles of critical thinking. Or, am I getting it totally wrong? > > > --- Obododimma. > > > On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 7:49 PM, Thomas savage wrote: > >> While specifying Nigeria may be an error, I have nevertheless been warned >> that many of the emails one receives as personal requests from Africa are, >> indeed, scams and I never respond to them unless, asin the case of >> Obododimma Oha, I know the person who sent them, having met him on another >> listserv. Am I now insulting Africa as a whole by pointing out the >> existence of this online email phenomenon? I don't think so and I hope >> not. There are some of these requests which originate outside Africa as >> well, emails telling me that I have won something from organizations of >> which I have never heard before. I ignore these as well as I have been >> tipped off that these are scams or snares or whatever you want to call them >> except genuine. Regards, Tom Savage >> >> --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Obododimma Oha wrote: >> >> From: Obododimma Oha >> Subject: Re: David >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 5:00 PM >> >> Hi Barry, >> I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! >> What makes >> you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the >> history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and >> other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades >> before >> what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. >> >> I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a >> criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to >> insult >> that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we >> criminalize >> and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at >> POETICS? >> Be well! >> >> --- Obododimma Oha. >> >> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < >> b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: >> >> > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into >> and >> > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, >> stranded >> > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. >> Needless >> > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if >> you >> > get that e-mail, be warned. >> > >> > ================================== >> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Obododimma Oha >> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >> Dept. of English >> University of Ibadan >> Nigeria >> >> & >> >> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >> University of Ibadan >> >> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >> +234 805 350 6604. >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > > -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 11:27:23 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Thank you to all who wrote David Chirot directly & indirectly while in Africa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you especially to all who wrote me directly in the last week and also= to all those who wrote indirectly on the issues which came out of the lett= er of appeal from the hacked address of "david chirot." I am very stunned and thankful to all for such concern and interest. It is= deeply moving as it is a living sign of a community which has been create= d by its members through time and writing=2C which is the art of space/time= travel. If any of us were in any "elsewhere" whether by hacker or no--there would b= e again such a response. To me this awareness of community and companionship revealed by of al thing= s a hacker indeed a very beaitufl event to be thankful for. I apologize in a previous letter I conveyed the opposite impression--as I w= rote then=2C I had arrived back here from a day in the clinic and the next = several days and today still not in such good shape so it has taken longer = than ever to essay reading the mails and attempting replies. In that condi= tion=2C the only letter I had really looked at was the one from my son. The anaolgy I made previously with Rimbaud however one I think can make a p= oem or prose poem with--the "reports" of Rimbaud that circulated in Paris d= uring his final years in Abyssinia--the wild notes of Verlaine and others i= n this regard--the creation of a mythic Rimbaud leading akind of Pasha's l= ife--or that of an opulent traveling scholar-- (almost a pre-figuring of Blaise Cendrars' own endless variations on his ow= n self mythologings in his all his writings and at the same time being bruited about Paris while the Dounier Rousseau w= as painting his huge tableaux of his visions of Tropical Scenes--supposedly= from his time in Mexico under the Emperor Maximilian--more likely at the B= otanical Gardens--)-- also the questions of the "author" when the "author" can be hacked--a new f= orm of "possesion" via "identity theft" to be used in creating a "theft" sc= heme-- Perhaps rather than creating "appeals" and fraudulent money up front demand= s=2C hackers will take to the fine art of being the mimics and memes of act= ual wirters-- hacking into an author's computer=2C and sending out notes and papers writt= en carefully in the manner of so and so and yet subtly shifting through tim= e the tenor and direction of the writing from one point of view to a steadi= ly more opposing one-- or one that covertly insiunately undermines everything that the actual auth= or has held to be true for ages and ages-- now=2C faced with this dilemna=2C would the writer so hacked decide to take= on the hacker in a battle of styles and wits? or simply unplug the computer=2C toss it in the compactor and get an entire= ly new setup all round-- trying like Poe's William Wilson=2C to be freed of this pursuing "double"-- a person hacking into one's very being--one's conscience--one's style-- would a hacker be able to hack even the wild passes and flashes of El Spont= aneo=2C that afficianado of the Corrida who jumps into the ring and for as = long as possible takes over the role of matador from the professionals? or is a hacker El Spontaneo hin/herself in regards to the writer who is hac= ked--mimicing her/his "passes"--and yet--adding flourishes that are far mor= e effective--elcit much greater applause--and begin to undermine the "actua= l" writer as he begins to receive plaudits for aspects of "his" works which= he knows he "did not write" himself-- so --did they come to him in a flash of what he has always denied--Romantic= Inspiration?--or some kind of bizarre Flashback? or Fugue State?--what is = really going on inside his self controlled=2C orderly mind--????--- to be continued------ http://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com/2008/11/poetics-of-repossesion-of-s= tolen.html _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows=AE connects the people=2C information=2C and fun that are p= art of your life http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 00:03:40 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Whiskey Fox Subject: new publication call for poems--poetry and theory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Please take a look at the call for submissions below, and visit the website/blog for the new publication _Whiskey & Fox_. ( http://whiskeyandfox.blogspot.com ) Thanks Daniel C Remein and Editors Whiskey & Fox now accepts unsolicited submissions of poetry and theory. We are not interested in work in facile relation to the conditions of its production or its political function, but in work that attempts to provoke configurations of secular human community as alternatives to those of Capital and its States. To this end, we are not interested in writing that pretends to operate within a single repeatable mode, restricting possible imaginings of future humanisms and post-humanisms and the possibility for producing queer-heterotopoi. As such, we are interested in poetry and poetics committed to theory and historiography, and theory and historiography committed to poetry and poetics. The journal is interested currently in shorter forms or fragments, forms which might be classified as a missive, an aphorism, or a raid--although other forms and modes will be considered. Specifically, for the next issue, we announce an interest in work that will fit under the title "Doing Politics with Animals." The issue will include a response to all of the work collected within the same volume by Karl Steel (Asst. Professor CUNY Brooklyn), historian and theorist of the human/animal boundary between the medieval and the contemporary. Please send submissions to whiskeyandfox [at] gmail [dot] com in a MS Word document, unless the work involves a specific non-standard typography or layout (in which case, please send a PDF). The filename should include your last name. You may send a cover letter, and we will not be unhappy about it. Send unpublished work only, please. Simultaneous submissions are not a problem, but please notify us right away if the work is published elsewhere. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 16:13:54 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?GB18030?Q?Asian_Cha?= Subject: First Annivesary Issue of CHA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB18030" THE FIRST ANNIVERSARY ISSUE OF CHA: AN ASIAN LITERARY JOURNAL IS=20 NOW AVAILABLE =20 We are pleased to announce the publication of the fifth issue of Cha: An = Asian=20 Literary Journal (November 2008) with a new editorial on the memorable ye= ar=20 2008 by co-editor Jeff Zroback. Poet, novelist and historian Reid Mitchell generously acted as guest edit= or and=20 read the submissions with us. The new issue features poetry by former US=20= Poet Laureate Billy Collins and new fiction by Nirmala Pillai. Other=20 writers/artists featured in the issue include Sam Byfield, Grace V. S. Ch= in,=20 Mike Farman, Tiziano Fratus, Daniel Hudon, Anne Levesque, Vikas Malhotra,= =20 Aya Padron, Yves Rubin, Steven Schroeder, Daren Shiau, Gillian Sze, Tai=20= Dong Huai, Eddie Tay, Royston Tester, Toh Hsien Min, Sean Wiebe, Alison=20= Wong, Bo Wong and Jennifer Wong. To read the issue, please visit our webs= ite=20 at www.asiancha.com.=20 We are currently accepting submissions for the sixth issue of Cha, which = is=20 scheduled for publication in February 2009. Deadline: 31 December 2008.=20= Award-winning Hong Kong poet Arthur Leung will lend his expertise to us i= n=20 the role of poetry guest editor. If you are interested in having your wor= ks=20 considered for publication in Cha, please read our submission guidelines = for=20 details. Tammy Ho & Jeff Zroback/ The Editors Cha: An Asian Literary Journal/ www.asiancha.com=20 Asian Cha blog/ www.asiancha.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:17:03 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Doug Holder Subject: ( This Review appears in the current issue of "Fight These Bastards" literary magazine founded by Don Winter) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" ( This Review appears in the current issue of "Fight These Bastards" lite= rary=20 magazine founded by Don Winter) THE MAN IN THE BOOTH IN THE MIDTOWN TUNNEL. By Doug Holder. 2008. 63=20 pages. $13 Cervena Barva Press. POBOX 440357 W. Somerville, Mass. 02144- 3222 http://www.cervenabarvapress.com=20 Reviewed by Don Winter Rather than puzzle poems the reader must pick to find meaning, Doug Holde= r=20 presents crystal portraits filled with small details that resonate more a= nd more=20 with repeated readings: Postal Worker The supervisor Counts the seconds As you wipe The Crumbs from your Face and return To your post. Your hands Anonymous Callused, pedestrian You feed A rapid Stream of letters To a ravenous federal machine. Your eyes dimmed For years =46rom the sea of manila The bland white face Of the mail Faces scarred=20 With zips. You feel Ready to=20 Be returned to Your sender. Holder often aligns himself with those emblematic and beneath notice, voi= cing=20 experience as a tollbooth attendant, a heroin addict, and a psychiatric=20= patient. And often the poetry is the response to the desolation and the=20= ominous surroundings that engulf characters. When characters aren=92t=20 anticipating some form of anxiety (=93You felt/It press/Again/In your/Sto= mach=94),=20 they are displaced, or home retreats. =93She could never run that way aga= in,=94 a=20 voice admits in =93For Sarah,=94 and in =93The Family Portrait=94 we are = told, =93Nothing=20 will last.=94 But while this is book is about loss and anguish and darkness, it is also= about=20 hope: =93A daily ritual Of decrepit defiance Walking the ground That will own them.=94 (Cambridge, Mass: Two Old Women,=94 p.26) What may in fact be best about this book is the way the poetry oscillates= =20 between the chaotic and the organized, the terrifying and the peaceful.=20= Holder=92s is a voice both comfortable and uncomfortable with itself, a v= oice=20 that allows both the catastrophic and beautiful to co-exist harmoniously.= As=20 the speaker in =93The Last Hotdog,=94 suggests, bad things are happening,= with=20 worse on the way, but we can find small moments of (mitigated) joy even=20= where hope is no longer possible: She brought it To his sick bed, He bit through The red casing The familiar orgasm of juice Hitting the roof Of his mouth In some facsimile Of his youth. Holder takes the grit of everyday life and transforms it into elegant, ge= nerous=20 and personal poems, as easy to read as a pop novel, as fulfilling as a he= arty=20 meal. =93The Man in the Booth in the Midtown Tunnel,=94 is the type of bo= ok that=20 might bridge the aesthetic gap between popular culture, which often does = not=20 acknowledge the existence of the fine arts, and the usually snobbish=20 intelligentsia, which rarely acknowledges the existence of popular cultur= e. ----Don Winter=92s work has appeared in the: New York Quarterly, Southern= =20 Poetry Review, 5 AM, Passages North, Slipstream, Portland Review, Chiron=20= Review, Sycamore Review, Pearl, and close to 500 other journals in the U.= S.,=20 Canada, England, Australia, Switzerland, Scotland and Ireland. His work h= as=20 been nominated for twelve Pushcarts. His first collection, Things About t= o=20 Disappear, is the best seller at Bone World Publishing and in New York=20= Quarterly=92s on-line store. He is co-founder of Platonic 3Way Press, hom= e of=20 Fight These Bastards =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 20:12:10 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Dan Wilcox Subject: Third Thursday Poetry Night, Albany, NY Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed the Poetry Motel Foundation presents Third Thursday Poetry Night at the Social Justice Center 33 Central Ave., Albany, NY Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:00 sign up; 7:30 start Featured Poet: Matt Galletta Matt Galletta lives in Albany with his wife and two cats. He has been told on more than one occasion that he resembles Clark Kent. He doesn't see it. -- with open mic for community poets before & after the feature: $3.00 donation, suggested; more if you got it, less if you can't. Your pleasant host: Dan Wilcox. Nothing was ever certain with her by Matt Galletta The recipe called for one cup of white wine, boiled, but all we had was a dust-caked champagne bottle. I poured the champagne into the pot and watched the bubbles rush to the surface before I could even turn on the heat. It was impossible to tell whether or not it was boiling; impossible to tell whether it was time to move on. ## ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:29:45 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Fw: Splinter Generation Chapbooks Now for Sale, plus join us on Facebook, Myspace and Twitter In-Reply-To: <265469.36065.qm@web52004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline --- On *Sun, 11/16/08, Splinter Generation *wrote: From: Splinter Generation Subject: Splinter Generation Chapbooks Now for Sale, plus join us on Facebook, Myspace and Twitter To: "Seth Fischer" Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 3:47 PM Dear Friends and Readers, The Splinter Generation, by popular demand, is now offering chapbooks for sale online at www.splintergeneration.com/teedonation.html I heard from lots of people who want to read the stories and poetry of the Splinter Generation in book form. We listened. Now all of the content is available in a chapbook that was designed by the talented Kristina Kaiser. These chapbooks also make great presents for the holidays; you can give people some great stories and poems to read while supporting young writers. The little money we will raise from the sale of these chapbooks will go towards further publicity -- and an exciting development we'll announce at the beginning of next year. We also now have an official facebook and myspace page, and despite my promise to never, ever have a Twitter account, we're on Twitter, too. Become a fan or a friend! And tell your friends to become fans or friends. Follow us on Twitter! Help us see what you all are doing by letting us follow you on Twitter. Spread the word! Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/pages/wwwsplintergenerationcom/43909588419?ref=mf Myspace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=427804005 Twitter: Username -- splintergen Email -- splintergeneration@gmail.com Have happy holidays! Seth Fischer, Founding Editor The Splinter Generation __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages| Files| Photos MARKETPLACE ------------------------------ From kitchen basics to easy recipes - join the Group from Kraft Foods [image: Yahoo! Groups] Change settings via the Web(Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest| Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe . __,_._,___ -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:31:55 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tarpaulin Sky Press Subject: 3 NEW BOOKS: CUNNINGHAM, MILLER, SHIMODA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tarpaulin Sky Press is thrilled to announce the publication of three new titles=97Mark Cunningham=92s BODY LANGUAGE, Teresa K. Miller=92s FOREVER = NO LO, and Brandon Shimoda=92s THE INLAND SEA. Read on for more information, = and please help us spread the news. Visit http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Press/catalog.html to order. If you're = a subscriber, or if you've pre-ordered, your books are on the way.=20 BODY LANGUAGE by Mark Cunningham ISBN: 9780977901975 Prose Poetry.=20 5"x7", 136 pages, perfectbound, t=EAte-b=EAche $14 includes shipping in the US BODY LANGUAGE, a book of poetry unique both in content and design, investigates the body in language and language in the body. It is a = diptych of sorts, two full-length collections of prose poems (PRIMER and BODY) = which meet in the middle. True to its content, the book design (called =93t=EAte-b=EAche=94), employs two front covers and no back cover. = =93With its trope of clue-like instruction and unique, flip-book embodiment,=94 writes = Lisa Russ Spahr, BODY LANGUAGE =93creates a kind of hybrid detective f(r)iction, = an intrepid mash-up of high and low cultures in which the reader is as = likely to encounter Rilke and Proto-Sinaitic inscription as Lacan, Film Noir, = The Three Stooges, cell phones, higher mathematics, binary thought. . . .=94 = FOREVER NO LO by Teresa K. Miller Chapbook. Poetry. 4" x 4.75", saddle-sewn, french flaps, 36 pages $10 includes shipping in the US=20 Vehicular homicide, relationship dissolution by imperceptible degrees, genocide, terror by war, linguistic disorientation, all meet in Teresa = K. Miller=92s chapbook, FOREVER NO LO. As evidenced by its cover, a = palimpsest of maps, the setting of FOREVER NO LO is at once Portugal, East Oakland, Rwanda, Chicago, Iraq. . . . In multivocal language fragments of broken Portuguese, elementary French, and dialectical English, this serial poem asks what comes of global and personal tragedy=97what grows, haunts, = decays, redeems=97in the gut, on the news, or from local communities. Printed = and hand-bound in Vermont, FOREVER NO LO is a limited edition of 150. THE INLAND SEA by Brandon Shimoda Chapbook. Poetry. 6" x 8", perfectbound, black endsheets, 40 pages. November 2008. $10 includes shipping in the US=20 Also limited to 150 copies is TSky Press=92s first perfectbound = chapbook, Brandon Shimoda=92s THE INLAND SEA. A remembrance, and a = thinking-through, of the grand and generative compromises of birth, migration, dementia, sacrifice and ancestor worship, THE INLAND SEA is a raveling entreaty = for the life of both a family departed and a family spectrally present. Spiritually addressed to Midori Shimoda, as well as to the inland = seascapes of his birth (Hiroshima, Japan) and death (Lake Norman, North Carolina), = THE INLAND SEA is composed of doubts, dissolutions, laments and a widening circumference of water and hope=97a soft, yet urgent, ceremony, through = which the ruptures of the past might find celebratory echo.=20 We hope you will enjoy these books as much as we=92ve enjoyed the = process of making them available to you. Keep an eye out, next month as well, when = we release the second paper edition of Tarpaulin Sky Literary Journal. =20 Cheers, Christian Peet & Editors, Tarpaulin Sky Press =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 20:44:56 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: aslongasittakes Subject: aslongasittakes issue 2 is now up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Issue 2 of aslongasittakes, a magazine of sound poetry, is now up at www.aslongasittakes.org. There's work by *Adachi Tomomi,* the *Atlanta Poets Group* (performing a piece by *Michael Basinski* and some /Love Songs/ by *Bruce Andrews* ), *Gary Barwin* (alone and with *Gregory Betts* ), *Michael Basinski, David Braden*, *Craig Dongoski*, *Brian Howe*, *Maja Jantar* (alone and with *Vincent Tholome*), *e k rzepka*, *Larissa Shmailo*, and *Mathew Timmons* (performing a *Hugo Ball* poem). Enjoy! james sanders ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 20:58:05 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Fluffy Singler Subject: Re: "Nigerian Scam" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's not that "scamming" is a Nigerian thing. The term refers to a very specific type of scam because the first wave of these type of emails way back when came from -- or were said to come from -- Nigeria. Hence this particular type of email scam has come to be known as the Nigerian scam. If you look at the headers on these type of emails, they actually almost never come from the country they claim to be from--very often you'll get one that claims to come from an African country but has a Russian or Italian email domain. But anyway, that's where the term comes from and on urban legends and scam websites, these emails are known officially there as the Nigerian scam. -----Original Message----- From: Obododimma Oha [mailto:obodooha@GMAIL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:00 PM Subject: Re: David Hi Barry, I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What makes you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades before what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to insult that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we criminalize and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at POETICS? Be well! --- Obododimma Oha. On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, stranded > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. Needless > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you > get that e-mail, be warned. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:25:00 -0800 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Gabrielle. The ironic thing about the use of the "Nigerian scam" is= the way the phrase can put=A0 the blinder on all the Euro-American scams i= n Nigeria, the worst being the Chevron and the Shell Oil "Scams" that have = done so much damage on all levels to the people and the environment of the = Delta Regions, let alone to manipuate and corrupt the various levels of the= Nigerian Government.=A0=A0 I suspect much more of the 'Internet's imaginat= ion' has been 'righteously' focused on the "Nigerian Scams" and much less o= n the Shell-Chevron Scams.=20 Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ --- On Sat, 11/15/08, Gabrielle Welford wrote: From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: David To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, November 15, 2008, 7:57 PM dear stephen, i'm really glad you wrote this response. i've had similar experiences in hawai'i, and i know it's particularly hard to see one's own slant when it's in the face. i so often meet people who just want to go to hawai'i and think they're being called there and completely don't understand the impact of all the non-hawaiians pouring in and taking over land, spirituality, water, etc. it's very hard for hawaiians to make a go of it in/on their own land because it's so beautiful and such an intense place that it just seems "right" for all of us to want to be in paradise. no paradise when thousands of hawaiians are homeless, living on the beaches and in the parks, and the military rules over all. there's a huge diaspora too--both to places like vegas and in mainland prisons. yuk. anyway, it's easy to overlook what it feels like for the people who are inside the characterization we're making for them/of them. maybe "it's just an adjective"--but so what? if it feels like a stab because of all colonial past and present history, tis so. what's to justify? blessings, g Gabrielle Welford, Ph.D. _Too Many Deaths: Decolonizing Western Academic Research on Indigenous Cultures_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D317 _Dora_ http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=3Dfull&id=3D378 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 On Fri, 14 Nov 2008, Stephen Vincent wrote: > I taught in Nigeria for two years way way back. I am still in close > contact with former Nigerian students, and friends from the time. I > personally get offended when I hear "Nigerian scam" or variations on > that. For a moment, when it became vogue-ish to indulge that > characterization, it gave me the impression that the whole country had > been taken over by these Internet wielding scam 'artists' - which I just > as suddenly was stupid and highly prejudicial, dismissive, etc. > > Maybe human nature? Maybe most countries are looking at the USA and > reducing us down to a cast of greedy unscrupulous banker/mortgage > broker/ real estate predators?? > > Nigeria - its pleasures and real disturbances (corrupt practices by some > included) is much more interesting country than that easy reductive=A0 > 'scam' slight.=A0 =A0 > > Humorously, the Nigerian students on the Nsukka campus where I taught, > would call, in Pidgin English, the few Albino students "Peace > Corpsees."=A0 (No, I did not interpet that to mean I was a 'dead man > walking'!) > > Better than a "Bushie" - I suspect. > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > --- On Fri, 11/14/08, Obododimma Oha wrote: > From: Obododimma Oha > Subject: Re: David > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 3:07 PM > > We know the uses of adjectives. If anyone has doubts about the what the > modifier "Nigerian" is doing in "Nigerian scams", that > person can pick a > good grammar book and crosscheck. Moreover, we are talking about language as > "loaded weapon" here, and as Dwight Bolinger says, what is even more > dangerous is to assume that such a weapon is innocuous! > > -- Obododimma. > > > On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 1:38 AM, George Bowering wrote: > > > No, it is not a good point. > > To say "Nigerian scams" is not to say that scams are necessarily > Nigerian. > > The very grammar suggests that only some scams are Nigerian. > > If we say US gangsters, that is not to say that all gangsters are > > USAmericans. > > Here's another parallel: if I complain about Meyer Lansky, > > that does not make me anti-semitic. > > I have received many many scam letters from Nigeria in the last year. > > Some from South Africa, too. The latter were South African scam letters. > > > > gb > > > > > > > > On Nov 12, 2008, at 3:33 PM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > > > Obododimma > >> > >> That's a very good point. And a very straight one. > >> We certainly need to watch out for such prejudice even if it isn't > always > >> intended. > >> I have made such blemishes in the past too. > >> > >> Aryanil > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Obododimma Oha" > > >> To: > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:00 PM > >> Subject: Re: David > >> > >> > >> Hi Barry, > >>> I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* > scams"! What > >>> makes > >>> you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to > read the > >>> history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al > Capone and > >>> other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many > decades > >>> before > >>> what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. > >>> > >>> I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America > (as a > >>> criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", > unless I mean to > >>> insult > >>> that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we > >>> criminalize > >>> and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the > netiquette at > >>> POETICS? > >>> Be well! > >>> > >>> --- Obododimma Oha. > >>> > >>> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < > >>> b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been > hacked into and > >>>> e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from > him, > >>>> stranded > >>>> in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately > wired. > >>>> Needless > >>>> to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian > scams... So if > >>>> you > >>>> get that e-mail, be warned. > >>>> > >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > >>>> guidelines > >>>> & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Obododimma Oha > >>> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > >>> Dept. of English > >>> University of Ibadan > >>> Nigeria > >>> > >>> & > >>> > >>> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > >>> University of Ibadan > >>> > >>> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > >>> +234 805 350 6604. > >>> > >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > >> > >> > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1784 - Release Date: > 11/12/2008 > >> 7:01 PM > >> > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > > George Harvey Bowering > > Fond of many dead people. > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 02:42:37 -0800 Reply-To: b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have to say that, finally, I feel physically ill from the feeling of havi= ng been implicitly accused of holding and fomenting a vile prejudice. There= has been talk of language as a loaded weapon and of people feeling stabbed= by how they are characterized. Well, I feel like I am on the receiving end= of those things. I don't to get into a contest of sensitivities but=C2=A0i= t is very difficult for me to see how I can participate in a group where I = feel that such views are being held of me so I think I have to withdraw, at= least for now. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:33:56 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David - in reponse to both Bowering & Obododim In-Reply-To: <9778b8630811152128s5043d16cy45cfb767e9effa6a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ryan Daley's argument in the following excerpt from his previous post has caught my attention: "As 419 is a term that refers to the law in the Nigerian criminal code. Since there was a need to create this code in Nigeria, it seems there was a problem there with email scams. Never has anyone stated that all scams or cons have come from Nigeria. This would be silly. But...since it's 419 Letters we're talking about and since these letters come from Nigeria...we either call them Nigerian email scams, 419 Letters, or the less specific and much less accurate, scam emails." I would like Daley to know that just as HIV/AIDS has names in Nigerian languages (with interesting derivations and patterns), what is named 419 also has names in many other languages of the world. Some Nigerians simply started referring to the crime by the name of the law that was enacted to crush it. It was there even before email became available to the public, way beyond the colonial period . Law enforcement agents used to refer to it (and some still do) as "OBT", which means "Obtaining Goods by Tricks." Every society or language has its interesting ways it manages etymology and synecdoche. If a society prefers to call something by another thing associated with it, it would be an oversimplification to conclude that that type of experience only has to do with that society (or even started in that society). There are certainly other ways of naming the crime in other societies, and if we study those, we may find that they predate the internet. Not even Benjamin Lee Whorf with his hypothesis on linguistic relativity and linguistic determinism would conclude quickly that because there is a Nigerian law that people optionally use in identifying the crime, then it is a typical Nigerian semiotic or problem. To choose to call it "Nigerian scams" or "Nigerian email scams" is to engage in the politics of labelling. Ok, why not the option "419 mails"? My friend, lexical choice, especially with adjectives, has a lot to do with attitude. Are those attitudes harmful or harmless? Now, don't tell me that writers do not consider facework in their diction. Such a writer that ignores facework is certainly not a "righer". Just part of the crowd. --- Obododimma Oha. On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Ryan Daley wrote: > I think if you look back at my initial post, you'll see that my intention > was to argue the point that the term wasn't meant to offend, and wasn't > offensive, though taking into account that we are bound to disagree. Most > here have lived and visited other countries for what I'm sure are extensive > periods of time, and thus know what being both a social and racial minority > might be like. Many of these same travelers have probably found themselves > part of marginalized communities of any kind, and might understand the > problem of grouping, stereotyping and prejudice -- with firsthand knowledge > that it really does hurt all involved, of course, when we find that our > dear > friends are the brunt of any type of colonialist (or any other type) > subjugation through language. I don't think anyone here would disagree. In > that regard, it's unnecessary to point out that Americans are often slurred > in other countries. This, in fact, shows the ignorance of many that claim > to > be superior to Americans. Nevertheless, this is a different matter > altogether, as it would be if we called all Nigerians "scam email writers"; > however, being called a warmonger implies that a person is actively > involved > or supportive of a call to war, and thus it seems reductive to claim that > all Americans, just by the token of their being Americans, are warmongers. > > But terming a response as "shaping discourse" allows you to respond and > thus > "shape discourse" while dismissing, or giving others reasons to dismiss, > the > comments they feel "shape discourse" in a way that they don't want it > shaped. I'm all for shaping the discourse, as long as others have that same > latitude. And they do, and have, shaped it. I won't claim the conversation > is legit only when it goes the way I feel is fair and just. > > But this conversation so far relates to emails, spam and scam in the form > of > the 419 letter. Whether David composed this letter or not is moot: it's > what > got the discussion going...parochial or otherwise. And so...the 419 Letter: > > > As 419 is a term that refers to the law in the Nigerian criminal code. > Since > there was a need to create this code in Nigeria, it seems there was a > problem there with email scams. Never has anyone stated that all scams or > cons have come from Nigeria. This would be silly. But...since it's 419 > Letters we're talking about and since these letters come from Nigeria...we > either call them Nigerian email scams, 419 Letters, or the less specific > and > much less accurate, scam emails. > > Call it what you want. The syntax and goal of the email is the same, no > matter where the letters originates. But at least we know what criminal > code > they're breaking in Nigeria... > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 11:55 PM, Alexander Jorgensen < > storagebag001@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > I think I said something about listening and parochialism - to repeat the > > purpose of my post with deference. The fact that in 30 countries, > including > > those visited in South and Central America, six of the 30 in which I have > > lived and worked, aged 39, today in China, not anyone has ever called me > a > > USAmerican does not displease me - esp given the Western hemisphere was > > merely a playground for colonialism during the creation of the US and the > > nation state. I don't mind being called something else, certainly - Yank > > works...Kiwi, too, but then it has already been taken, and so has > Canadian. > > > > It seems disturbing, getting back to my point, that three things have > been > > missed among the remarks made: > > > > 1- Obododimm's remark informs and doesn't warrant such attacks (Hey, how > > about we call those in the US warmongers, jesus freaks, Frankenstinian, > > know-it-alls with no capacit to control their arrogance, spiritually > > fat...because it seems true, at least in most superficial way. Then, too, > we > > could make some nasty generalizations related to white folks about they > tend > > to think they have the right to talk for or talk down to...as in their > > minority hands they actually hold the keys to the proverbial kingdom) > > > > and > > > > 2- That David could have written that e-mail (and I have known him for > more > > than 15 years). Now, David has yet to respond to this list. > > > > lastly > > > > 3- By being so parochial, you are basically shaping discourse to meet > your > > own needs, not that of a greater literary community that extends outside. > > Too, we don't always know what we need. > > > > Best, > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > --- On *Sun, 11/16/08, Ryan Daley * wrote: > > > > From: Ryan Daley > > Subject: Re: David - in reponse to both Bowering & Obododimm > > To: storagebag001@yahoo.com > > Cc: POETICS@listserv.buffalo.edu > > Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 5:23 AM > > > > So..with all the "harping," which "harping" is preferred, the harping > > support or harping condemnation of the term? > > > > On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 8:42 PM, Alexander Jorgensen < > > storagebag001@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> I wanna say that a certain level of parochialism comes out in these most > >> recent responses to Obododimma's reply. Just think about what this first > >> term means for a second. > >> > >> Next, I wanna say that given George's almost fetishizing of the > expression > >> "USAmerican," I'm more than bit surprised at both his reaction and tone, > and > >> most certainly because he has almost demanded that we take note of his > own > >> sensitivitiy (as, apparently, an other). > >> > >> While I do not think it my responsibility to be overly concerned about > >> anyone's sensitivities, certainly any more than to presuppose the > >> credibility/reliability of narrative, I do, however, think it important > to > >> listen. Without engaging in one-up-manship, I have NEVER been called > >> anything but an American in my extensive travels (which is to say, at > least > >> privately, I think these folks pushing this expression are harping on a > >> non-issue. Can I say: "harping"). But, and this is my point, I have > managed > >> to listen. > >> > >> Alex > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:52:40 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline An important part of the mail I sent to Tom (which I felt would benefit other people on this list) was lost. Here is it below: -------------------- As you would see, that mail did not come from Africa or Nigeria. There are a number of cyber-oriented con artists out there (Africans, Americans, Asians, etc) who use all kinds of tricks to gain access to web-based mails. One major way is that of sending encrypted web-links inviting you to this or that web membership or free service. Once you click, your account becomes vulnerable. Many of us do not seem to recognize that web-based emails are particularly insecure and we are sometimes carried away by the desire to be part of many things hapening on the web. David should count himself lucky that it was not a case of his account being used to send a mail oriented to terrorist activity! He would have had a lot to explain to the police! -------------------- Regards to all. Obododimma. On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 2:43 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > > I sent the mail below directly to Tom Savage, but would like to share it > with members on the list, because I am concerned with how some of us who use > web-based mail become vulnerable to scammers. > Regards to all. > Obododimma. > ----------------------- > > Hello Tom, > I have just returned to Namibia after a week-long conference in Rio de > Janeiro, Brazil. We will explore this issue further much later. It may > interest you that I have been keeping most of those scam mails in a folder, > hoping to do a more extended study of the criminal rhetoric that they > represent. I received the scam mail in question three years ago from Turkey, > and was asked to send money to Dr Mustapha, a Sudanese scholar I met at a > conference in Gabon. The narrative is the same: he is stranded in Turkey and > I should quickly send him some dollars! Mustapha and I became close friends > when we met at that conference because I was impressed at the way he > analyzed and criticized the Sudanese junta. So, I was almost tempted to run > to his rescue but had to analyze the mail and tried to get in touch with > him. A day later, a Chinese scholar who attended that conference wrote, > telling me he got a similar mail from Mustapha. I was able to get in touch > with Mustapha and found that he did not send the mail and did not even have > access to his mail account. > > As you would see, that mail did not come from Africa or Nigeria. There are > a number of cyber-oriented con artists out there (Africans, Americans, > Asians, etc) who use all kinds of tricks to gain access to web-based mails. > One major way is that of sending encrypted web-links inviting you to this or > that web membership or free service. Once you click, your account becomes > vulnerable. > > Many of us do not seem to recognize that web-based emails are particularly > insecure and we are sometimes carried away by the desire to be part of many > things hapening on the web. David should count himself lucky that it was not > a case of his account being used to send a mail oriented to terrorist > activity! He would have had a lot to explain to the police! > > I need to take a shower and sleep off the jet lag. > > Regards, > Obododimma. > > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 9:06 PM, Thomas savage wrote: > >> I'm not sure how to reply to this, Obodidimma, but I will try. There is >> no doubt in my mind that when I see one of these requests on line and it >> happens to come from Africa that I do think of it as "African" but I do not >> think of all communications from Africa as necessarily being of this type. >> I may have a predisposition based on experience but not a prejudice, I >> hope. As I am aware that many of the emails I have received of this sort >> come from elsewhere or claim to come from elsewhere, it becomes more than an >> issue of African identity. Critical thinking? I hope so. Logical, also. >> But a habit pattern of thought, definitely. I have known of one instance >> where a poet I know responded to one of these "scams" I don't know where it >> originated from and someone at the other end of the scam tried to withdraw a >> large amount from her bank account using whatever information she supplied >> which made this possible. Fortunately, she went to the bank and was able to >> head off the effects of her error. But it was my learning of this series of >> events which has made me be very careful when dealing with any of these >> suspicious emails which I still get once in a while and mostly don't even >> bother to open or read. Regards, Tom Savage >> >> --- On *Fri, 11/14/08, Obododimma Oha * wrote: >> >> From: Obododimma Oha >> Subject: Re: David >> To: tsavagebar@yahoo.com >> Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 6:42 PM >> >> >> Yes, Tom, some of them are from Africa, but that has not led you to >> identify scams of that sort as "African scams". Even for the sake of logical >> reasoning? Let's say the politics of meaning no longer interests us (which >> would be surprising though!), at least we want our writing to agree with the >> principles of critical thinking. Or, am I getting it totally wrong? >> >> >> --- Obododimma. >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 7:49 PM, Thomas savage wrote: >> >>> While specifying Nigeria may be an error, I have nevertheless been warned >>> that many of the emails one receives as personal requests from Africa are, >>> indeed, scams and I never respond to them unless, asin the case of >>> Obododimma Oha, I know the person who sent them, having met him on another >>> listserv. Am I now insulting Africa as a whole by pointing out the >>> existence of this online email phenomenon? I don't think so and I hope >>> not. There are some of these requests which originate outside Africa as >>> well, emails telling me that I have won something from organizations of >>> which I have never heard before. I ignore these as well as I have been >>> tipped off that these are scams or snares or whatever you want to call them >>> except genuine. Regards, Tom Savage >>> >>> --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Obododimma Oha wrote: >>> >>> From: Obododimma Oha >>> Subject: Re: David >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 5:00 PM >>> >>> Hi Barry, >>> I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! >>> What makes >>> you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the >>> history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and >>> other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades >>> before >>> what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. >>> >>> I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a >>> criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to >>> insult >>> that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we >>> criminalize >>> and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at >>> POETICS? >>> Be well! >>> >>> --- Obododimma Oha. >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < >>> b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: >>> >>> > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into >>> and >>> > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, >>> stranded >>> > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. >>> Needless >>> > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if >>> you >>> > get that e-mail, be warned. >>> > >>> > ================================== >>> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines >>> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Obododimma Oha >>> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >>> Dept. of English >>> University of Ibadan >>> Nigeria >>> >>> & >>> >>> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >>> University of Ibadan >>> >>> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >>> +234 805 350 6604. >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Obododimma Oha >> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >> Dept. of English >> University of Ibadan >> Nigeria >> >> & >> >> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >> University of Ibadan >> >> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >> +234 805 350 6604. >> >> >> > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:21:11 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: <20081116000925.i56u2qph1bio8kko@webmail.vispo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, What I was trying to say was: a) whether these conceptual constructs themselves develop a tradition among them, actually becoming a new kind of poem, protecting the ideal (potential) rather than the real (actual). b) Conceptual, more precisely process poems, have a tendency, as far as I can see, of leading to a huge number of poems, a thousand, two thousand, etc. This creates a crisis of reading them, basically, they become "unreadable," only conceivable, unless one is ready to spend an eternity on each word. Converting the poem into its concept -conceiving its yet undefined possibilities, which actually generated the activity in the first place- condenses this problem of relentless quantity into its essence. Ciao, Murat On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 1:09 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > I wasn't attempting to make a statement about 'any poem', really, Murat. I > doubt that what I said applies well to 'any poem' but, rather, to a certain > approach to poetry. In the same way that statements about conceptual art, > say, might not apply very well to other types of art. > > I don't think it's a matter of reducing poems to statements describing the > processes which produced them. Instead, it's a matter of introducing a > dimension to poetry which is interesting and, once understood and > appreciated, allows people to enjoy various classes of poetry that, before, > may have seemed deficient by other standards. For instance, N+7, simply as a > text unto itself, without reference to not only the process that produced it > but its place in history and why it has that place in history, might seem to > enjoy notoriety without merit. As though what has merit must fulfill the > criteria of the poemy poem devoid of concept, in this sense. Which, itself, > can be viewed as a reduction of poetry, a refusal of dimensions such as the > conceptual. > > It needn't be one or the other, of course. They aren't really articles of > faith. > > ja > http://vispo.com > > Quoting Murat Nemet-Nejat : > > Jim, >> >> This way any poem is reduced to a statement describing the process which >> will produce it. The concept itself, the concept itself as potential, >> rather >> than its actualization, is the poem. This way what is infinite in >> potential, >> becomes infinitely concise. >> >> Do you mean something like this Jim? >> >> Ciao, >> >> Murat >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:04:10 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: David Comments: To: b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com In-Reply-To: <128910.82804.qm@web65102.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Barry: Don't let the legions of the politically=20 hyper-correct get to you. This discussion is=20 profoundly silly. All sorts of things in every=20 language are ascribed to one nationality or=20 another and become dictionary-sanctified for=20 reasons often lost in time. The Spanish Influenza=20 didn't originate in Spain, nor the Hong Kong=20 version in Hong Kong, and the tourism industry=20 thrives in both places. I doubt that the French=20 lose much sleep over "french letter" as a term=20 for a male birth control device that helps=20 prevent the french disease, though the terms=20 certainly go back to an English view of the=20 French as licentious--a stone I think nobody has=20 thrown since at least the Profumo scandal. For=20 Spanish speakers la carisia francesa is=20 cunnilingus, and in English we french kiss and=20 there's also greek love, though the practices are=20 pretty universal. I have no idea if the parasite=20 that's killing off American elm trees really=20 originated in the Netherlands, but it's still the=20 Dutch Elm Disease. Japanese knotweed, another=20 parasite, grows all over China and Korea. Jew's=20 harp is apparently a corruption of jaws=20 harp--maybe sharks should be miffed (they always=20 seem to be miffed). Language, thank god, is a=20 repository of history. Cleansing it of anything=20 that anyone might find offensive would also=20 cleanse it of much of the cultural data it stores. Mark At 05:42 AM 11/16/2008, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >I have to say that, finally, I feel physically=20 >ill from the feeling of having been implicitly=20 >accused of holding and fomenting a vile=20 >prejudice. There has been talk of language as a=20 >loaded weapon and of people feeling stabbed by=20 >how they are characterized. Well, I feel like I=20 >am on the receiving end of those things. I don't=20 >to get into a contest of sensitivities but=C2 it=20 >is very difficult for me to see how I can=20 >participate in a group where I feel that such=20 >views are being held of me so I think I have to withdraw, at least for now. > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept=20 >all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 22:06:38 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: AWAREing Press Subject: Re: Thank you to all who wrote David Chirot directly & indirectly while in Africa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David, your experience parallels one which seems, at least in part, to be h= appening in my court as well. I wrote a devil of a poem earlier today, to a= ttack any spies or thieves: "Crazed! The $19.95 James Beach Writing Academy= . 'WE EAT THE MEAT & GIVE YOU THE PUDDING'." That way, any hackers that hap= pen along to my personal computer can drool, in contemplation of good and e= vil, before acting.=20 We ask, How else to defeat an enemy except to try and hack inside their min= d(s)? A military man's and a philosopher's tactic, sure. But a poet's? Are = poets supposed to be Christ-like in turning the other cheek? or are poets c= unning daredevils whose pens are mightier than. What is "poet"? What is "po= etics"? Are certain words "key," trite, buzzed out, property of certain ind= ividuals, free for all? Breaking into print is like cracking a safe-- some = can write fetching prose or verse, and some need to hack into other peoples= ' safes to get any material. I think it's safe to say most everyone in the = Poetics community is among the former. Why anyone would ever steal another's work and/or identity, in pursuit of p= laying the romanticized poet, is perplexing. Karmic energy-attachments to s= tolen things can triple in energy, I hear. Curses, etc. Thanks for sharing,= best of luck, keep us updated. Write on. James Beach, editor AWAREing Press -------------- Original message from David-Baptiste Chirot : --------------=20 Thank you especially to all who wrote me directly in the last week and also= to all those who wrote indirectly on the issues which came out of the lett= er of=20 > appeal from the hacked address of "david chirot."=20 > I am very stunned and thankful to all for such concern and interest. It i= s deeply moving as it is a living sign of a community which has been create= d by=20 > its members through time and writing, which is the art of space/time trav= el.=20 > If any of us were in any "elsewhere" whether by hacker or no--there would= be=20 > again such a response.=20 > To me this awareness of community and companionship revealed by of al thi= ngs a=20 > hacker indeed a very beaitufl event to be thankful for.=20 > I apologize in a previous letter I conveyed the opposite impression--as I= wrote then, I had arrived back here from a day in the clinic and the next = several days and today still not in such good shape so it has taken longer = than ever to essay reading the mails and attempting replies. In that condit= ion, the only letter I=20 > had really looked at was the one from my son.=20 >=20 > The anaolgy I made previously with Rimbaud however one I think can make a= poem=20 > or prose poem with--the "reports" of Rimbaud that circulated in Paris dur= ing his=20 > final years in Abyssinia--the wild notes of Verlaine and others in this= =20 > regard--the creation of a mythic Rimbaud leading akind of Pasha's life--o= r that=20 > of an opulent traveling scholar--=20 >=20 > (almost a pre-figuring of Blaise Cendrars' own endless variations on his = own=20 > self mythologings in his all his writings=20 > and at the same time being bruited about Paris while the Dounier Rousseau= was=20 > painting his huge tableaux of his visions of Tropical Scenes--supposedly = from=20 > his time in Mexico under the Emperor Maximilian--more likely at the Botan= ical=20 > Gardens--)--=20 >=20 > also the questions of the "author" when the "author" can be hacked--a new= form=20 > of "possesion" via "identity theft" to be used in creating a "theft" sche= me--=20 >=20 > Perhaps rather than creating "appeals" and fraudulent money up front dema= nds,=20 > hackers will take to the fine art of being the mimics and memes of actual= =20 > wirters--=20 >=20 > hacking into an author's computer, and sending out notes and papers writt= en=20 > carefully in the manner of so and so and yet subtly shifting through time= the=20 > tenor and direction of the writing from one point of view to a steadily m= ore=20 > opposing one--=20 >=20 > or one that covertly insiunately undermines everything that the actual au= thor=20 > has held to be true for ages and ages--=20 >=20 > now, faced with this dilemna, would the writer so hacked decide to take o= n the=20 > hacker in a battle of styles and wits?=20 >=20 > or simply unplug the computer, toss it in the compactor and get an entire= ly new=20 > setup all round--=20 >=20 > trying like Poe's William Wilson, to be freed of this pursuing "double"--= =20 >=20 > a person hacking into one's very being--one's conscience--one's style--= =20 >=20 > would a hacker be able to hack even the wild passes and flashes of El Spo= ntaneo,=20 > that afficianado of the Corrida who jumps into the ring and for as long a= s=20 > possible takes over the role of matador from the professionals?=20 >=20 > or is a hacker El Spontaneo hin/herself in regards to the writer who is= =20 > hacked--mimicing her/his "passes"--and yet--adding flourishes that are fa= r more=20 > effective--elcit much greater applause--and begin to undermine the "actua= l"=20 > writer as he begins to receive plaudits for aspects of "his" works which = he=20 > knows he "did not write" himself--=20 >=20 > so --did they come to him in a flash of what he has always denied--Romant= ic=20 > Inspiration?--or some kind of bizarre Flashback? or Fugue State?--what is= really=20 > going on inside his self controlled, orderly mind--????---=20 >=20 > to be continued------=20 >=20 > http://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com/2008/11/poetics-of-repossesion-of= -stolen=20 > .html=20 > _________________________________________________________________=20 > See how Windows=C2=AE connects the people, information, and fun that are = part of your=20 > life=20 > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es &=20 > sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:37:40 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sharon Mesmer/David Borchart Subject: Where Billie Holiday once sang ... MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi all, Please come to a great reading ... Sunday, November 23 Sharon Mesmer, Susie Timmons and Bob Hershon The (new) Zinc Bar (formerly the Baggott Inn, formerly the Cinderella Club -- where Billie Holiday once sang) 82 West 3rd, two doors west of Thompson New York City, New York $5 donation goes to the poets Your hosts: Joe Elliot, Kimberly Lyons and Douglas Rothschild ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:05:03 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Jocelyn Saidenberg & Beth Murray at Small Press Traffic 11/21/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Small Press Traffic is thrilled to present: Jocelyn Saidenberg and Beth Murray Friday, November 21, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. Timken Lecture Hall Refreshments will be served Join us! Jocelyn Saidenberg is the author of Dispossessed (Belladonna, 2007), Negativity (Atelos, 2006), Dusky (Belladonna, 2002), CUSP (Kelsey Street Press, 2001), and Mortal City (Parenthesis Writing Series, 1998). She is an editor and publisher of KRUPSKAYA Books, a small press publishing collective, and also works as a librarian at the San Francisco Public Library. Born in New York City, she currently lives in San Francisco. Beth Murray practices homeopathy for people and animals. Since she became a homeopath, she mostly reads materia medica and doesn't submit her work to magazines. She is in the process of a adopting a child from the foster system. She lives in Alameda with her dog, Laney. The Island has everything to do with her experience there. Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to current SPT members and CCA faculty, staff, and students. There's no better time to join SPT! Check out: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin). Directions & map: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/directions.htm We'll see you Fridays! _______________________________ Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org www.smallpresstraffic.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:50:32 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Martha Cinader Mims Subject: National Radio Open Mic and Seeking Submissions Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Listen & Be Heard Network published Listen & Be Heard Poetry Cafe Blog at http://www.listenandbeheard.net/home where we publish a Poem of the Day, poetry columns, and have a poetry TV channel. We are seeking submissions for the Poem of the Day, queries about poetry columns, and urls to video submissions for the Poetry TV Channel. To submit poetry please register and log-in at http:// www.listenandbeheard.net/home/wp-login.php Click on "Write a Post", enter your title and text, save your work and then choose "pending review" from the "publish status" drop-down menu. Your post will be reviewed and you will be notified at the e- mail address you register with. -------------------------- L&BH Radio Hour encourages poets to call in to our weekly internet radio show with a poem and/or announcements about poetry events anywhere in the U.S. L&BH Radio Hour Nov. 18 Listen & Be Heard Network Call-in Number: (718) 506-1481 Go to: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/listenandbeheard/2008/11/19/LBH-Radio- Hour-Nov-18 to listen and for live chat and "click to talk." My featured guests this week will be Eloise Cotton and Armando from Armando's in Martinez. Maria Billingsly from the Martinez Opera will also join us. We will be talking about current events at both establishments, what's going on in Martinez, California and what it takes to keep the doors open at these venues. As always the show will feature announcements posted at Listen & Be Heard Network Arts News, some storytelling, some arts editorializing, and calls from listeners with thoughts to share and arts announcements. Poets are encouraged to call in with a poem. Wishing you Peace and Poetry martha cinader mims Martha Cinader Mims Listen & Be Heard Network editor@listenandbeheard.net http://www.listenandbeheard.net Get Skype and call me for free. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:40:30 -0800 Reply-To: ubuweb@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: UbuWeb Subject: Darren Wershler at UPenn, Thursday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii KWH Art, the English Department, & the Creative Writing Program present an opening for TAPEWORM a collaborative exhibition based on Darren Wershler-Henry's "The Tapeworm Foundry (andor the dangerous prevalence of imagination)" Thursday, 11/20 at 7PM the Writers House | 3805 Locust Walk No registration required - free & open to the public ------------------------------ ---------------------- Tapeworm is a collaboration of art projects radiating from a writing piece by Canadian artist Darren Wershler-Henry, "The Tapeworm Foundry (andor the dangerous prevalence of imagination)."/ /The text is available on UbuWeb: http://www.ubu.com/ubu/wershler_tapeworm.html. The Tapeworm Foundry is an intriguing instance of conceptual writing, faithfully formulaic but also unusually compelling in its fruition: a single rambling, unpunctuated sequence of possible projects, ranging from quirky to absurd to highly ambiguous and all largely allusive of the twentieth century avant-garde. The potential 'instructions' that comprise Tapeworm, linked by the pulsating conjunction 'andor', are themselves mini-premises for a thousand other projects, making the 50-page list the ultimate conceptual catalyst. This exhibition challenges a group of young contemporary artists and writers at Penn to realize some of Wershler-Henry's hypothetical instructions. The Penn students and graduates participating in the exhibition include: Grace Ambrose, Joyce Lee, Ned Eisenberg, Vladimir Zykov, Kimberly Eisler, Artie Vierkant, John Carroll, Jamie-Lee Josselyn, Arielle Brousse, Manya Scheps, Brooke Palmieri, Nick Salvatore, Robin McDowell, Sofie Hodara, Cecilia Corrigan, and Thomson Guster, with assistance from James La Marre and Trisha Low. Curated by Kaegan Sparks. There will be a limited quantity of complimentary exhibition catalogues available at the opening. Please email kwhart@writing.upenn.edu kwhart@writing.upenn.edu> for more information. This event will be webcast live: the Kelly Writers House LIVE WEBCAST allows you to join us at KWH as a virtual participant. Stop by online for a poetry reading or a discussion with a major journalist, regardless of whether you live in Philadelphia or in London. You can tune into each live webcast by following the instructions on the KWH-TV page: http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/webcasts/instructions.html. UbuWeb http://ubu.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:11:55 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: Tinfish Press announces a new chapbook and a holiday sale! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit / Charlotte's Way/ by Norman Fischer and a holiday special from Tinfish Press. Tinfish Press is proud to announce publication of Norman Fischer's long poem, /Charlotte's Way/. Please see our website for details of this exquisitely designed and produced accordion chapbook: http://tinfishpress.com/chapbooks.html The chap is available from our website and (in a bit) from Small Press Distribution for $12. Or send a check to Tinfish Press at 47/728 Hui Kelu Street #9, Kaneohe, HI 96744. Tinfish Press also announces a holiday special. Get beautiful books as gifts and take advantage of our end of the year discount. Or save them for yourselves! This year we have published four full-length books, one journal issue, and the new chapbook. Retail price for all items is $84. Send us $60, plus a modest contribution for shipping ($5) and they're all yours! (We recently lost our franking privileges from the University of Hawai`i—due to the economy—so now we're hustling for postage, too.) The items you'll receive are: Meg Withers, /A Communion of Saints/ Hazel Smith, /The Erotics of Geography/ Craig Santos Perez,/ from Unincorporated Territory/ /Tinfish 18.5: The Book: Puzzles and Word Game/s /Tinfish 18: The Journal/ Norman Fischer, /Charlotte's Way/ See our website for more information: http://tinfishpress.com This special offer ends January 1, 2009. Thank you for supporting small press poetry publishing. Enjoy year's end and the beginning of the Obama era. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 22:24:36 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: David - in reponse to both Bowering & Obododim In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Point taken. Though, my concern here is namely with English and how the adjective, be it 419 or Nigerian, causes assumptions about the referent. Yo= u state below, and I'd agree, that by saying 419 we are OBTing the crime, we're euphemistically obscuring the action. But is the adjective describing a permanent or temporal action, and does that matter? So, here comes the test: Does the world think less of Nigeria with the overuse of this adjective? Yes. The overuse turns into something similar to a snowclone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowclone. And that's where the real offense comes in...not in the "feelings" of a few= , but in the tearing-down ability of words, when employed incorrectly, to appeal to the lazy part of us to sum up entire nations/races/regions/sports teams. Hence, blaming Barry for the initial statement, as if he were the sole cause of the offense, seems petty. Certain Barry didn't invent 419 Letters, nor the term "Nigerian email scam." Our arguing the term, while certain tiresome by now, is what should happen with each problematization o= f language. =BFNo es cierto? -Ryan On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > Ryan Daley's argument in the following excerpt from his previous post has > caught my attention: > > "As 419 is a term that refers to the law in the Nigerian criminal code. > Since > there was a need to create this code in Nigeria, it seems there was a > problem there with email scams. Never has anyone stated that all scams or > cons have come from Nigeria. This would be silly. But...since it's 419 > Letters we're talking about and since these letters come from Nigeria...w= e > either call them Nigerian email scams, 419 Letters, or the less specific > and > much less accurate, scam emails." > > I would like Daley to know that just as HIV/AIDS has names in Nigerian > languages (with interesting derivations and patterns), what is named 419 > also has names in many other languages of the world. Some Nigerians simpl= y > started referring to the crime by the name of the law that was enacted to > crush it. It was there even before email became available to the public, > way > beyond the colonial period . Law enforcement agents used to refer to it > (and > some still do) as "OBT", which means "Obtaining Goods by Tricks." Every > society or language has its interesting ways it manages etymology and > synecdoche. If a society prefers to call something by another thing > associated with it, it would be an oversimplification to conclude that th= at > type of experience only has to do with that society (or even started in > that > society). There are certainly other ways of naming the crime in other > societies, and if we study those, we may find that they predate the > internet. Not even Benjamin Lee Whorf with his hypothesis on linguistic > relativity and linguistic determinism would conclude quickly that because > there is a Nigerian law that people optionally use in identifying the > crime, > then it is a typical Nigerian semiotic or problem. > > To choose to call it "Nigerian scams" or "Nigerian email scams" is to > engage in the politics of labelling. Ok, why not the option "419 mails"? = My > friend, lexical choice, especially with adjectives, has a lot to do with > attitude. Are those attitudes harmful or harmless? Now, don't tell me tha= t > writers do not consider facework in their diction. Such a writer that > ignores facework is certainly not a "righer". Just part of the crowd. > > --- Obododimma Oha. > > > > On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Ryan Daley wrote: > > > I think if you look back at my initial post, you'll see that my intenti= on > > was to argue the point that the term wasn't meant to offend, and wasn't > > offensive, though taking into account that we are bound to disagree. Mo= st > > here have lived and visited other countries for what I'm sure are > extensive > > periods of time, and thus know what being both a social and racial > minority > > might be like. Many of these same travelers have probably found > themselves > > part of marginalized communities of any kind, and might understand the > > problem of grouping, stereotyping and prejudice -- with firsthand > knowledge > > that it really does hurt all involved, of course, when we find that our > > dear > > friends are the brunt of any type of colonialist (or any other type) > > subjugation through language. I don't think anyone here would disagree. > In > > that regard, it's unnecessary to point out that Americans are often > slurred > > in other countries. This, in fact, shows the ignorance of many that cla= im > > to > > be superior to Americans. Nevertheless, this is a different matter > > altogether, as it would be if we called all Nigerians "scam email > writers"; > > however, being called a warmonger implies that a person is actively > > involved > > or supportive of a call to war, and thus it seems reductive to claim th= at > > all Americans, just by the token of their being Americans, are > warmongers. > > > > But terming a response as "shaping discourse" allows you to respond and > > thus > > "shape discourse" while dismissing, or giving others reasons to dismiss= , > > the > > comments they feel "shape discourse" in a way that they don't want it > > shaped. I'm all for shaping the discourse, as long as others have that > same > > latitude. And they do, and have, shaped it. I won't claim the > conversation > > is legit only when it goes the way I feel is fair and just. > > > > But this conversation so far relates to emails, spam and scam in the fo= rm > > of > > the 419 letter. Whether David composed this letter or not is moot: it's > > what > > got the discussion going...parochial or otherwise. And so...the 419 > Letter: > > > > > > As 419 is a term that refers to the law in the Nigerian criminal code. > > Since > > there was a need to create this code in Nigeria, it seems there was a > > problem there with email scams. Never has anyone stated that all scams = or > > cons have come from Nigeria. This would be silly. But...since it's 419 > > Letters we're talking about and since these letters come from > Nigeria...we > > either call them Nigerian email scams, 419 Letters, or the less specifi= c > > and > > much less accurate, scam emails. > > > > Call it what you want. The syntax and goal of the email is the same, no > > matter where the letters originates. But at least we know what criminal > > code > > they're breaking in Nigeria... > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 11:55 PM, Alexander Jorgensen < > > storagebag001@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > I think I said something about listening and parochialism - to repeat > the > > > purpose of my post with deference. The fact that in 30 countries, > > including > > > those visited in South and Central America, six of the 30 in which I > have > > > lived and worked, aged 39, today in China, not anyone has ever called > me > > a > > > USAmerican does not displease me - esp given the Western hemisphere w= as > > > merely a playground for colonialism during the creation of the US and > the > > > nation state. I don't mind being called something else, certainly - > Yank > > > works...Kiwi, too, but then it has already been taken, and so has > > Canadian. > > > > > > It seems disturbing, getting back to my point, that three things have > > been > > > missed among the remarks made: > > > > > > 1- Obododimm's remark informs and doesn't warrant such attacks (Hey, > how > > > about we call those in the US warmongers, jesus freaks, Frankenstinia= n, > > > know-it-alls with no capacit to control their arrogance, spiritually > > > fat...because it seems true, at least in most superficial way. Then, > too, > > we > > > could make some nasty generalizations related to white folks about th= ey > > tend > > > to think they have the right to talk for or talk down to...as in thei= r > > > minority hands they actually hold the keys to the proverbial kingdom) > > > > > > and > > > > > > 2- That David could have written that e-mail (and I have known him fo= r > > more > > > than 15 years). Now, David has yet to respond to this list. > > > > > > lastly > > > > > > 3- By being so parochial, you are basically shaping discourse to meet > > your > > > own needs, not that of a greater literary community that extends > outside. > > > Too, we don't always know what we need. > > > > > > Best, > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On *Sun, 11/16/08, Ryan Daley * wrote: > > > > > > From: Ryan Daley > > > Subject: Re: David - in reponse to both Bowering & Obododimm > > > To: storagebag001@yahoo.com > > > Cc: POETICS@listserv.buffalo.edu > > > Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 5:23 AM > > > > > > So..with all the "harping," which "harping" is preferred, the harping > > > support or harping condemnation of the term? > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 8:42 PM, Alexander Jorgensen < > > > storagebag001@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > >> I wanna say that a certain level of parochialism comes out in these > most > > >> recent responses to Obododimma's reply. Just think about what this > first > > >> term means for a second. > > >> > > >> Next, I wanna say that given George's almost fetishizing of the > > expression > > >> "USAmerican," I'm more than bit surprised at both his reaction and > tone, > > and > > >> most certainly because he has almost demanded that we take note of h= is > > own > > >> sensitivitiy (as, apparently, an other). > > >> > > >> While I do not think it my responsibility to be overly concerned abo= ut > > >> anyone's sensitivities, certainly any more than to presuppose the > > >> credibility/reliability of narrative, I do, however, think it > important > > to > > >> listen. Without engaging in one-up-manship, I have NEVER been called > > >> anything but an American in my extensive travels (which is to say, a= t > > least > > >> privately, I think these folks pushing this expression are harping o= n > a > > >> non-issue. Can I say: "harping"). But, and this is my point, I have > > managed > > >> to listen. > > >> > > >> Alex > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:36:24 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jill Chan Subject: Best New Poems Online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Best New Poems Online is a website featuring short commentaries and links to the best new poems published online in literary magazines and journals. We choose from new poems published online in literary magazines and journals as we come across them. Readers of contemporary poetry, publishers and editors, or even the poets themselves may suggest work for us to check out. Email us at bestnewpoemsonline@gmail.com http://bestnewpoemsonline.com If you are in facebook, you are invited to join our group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=34972108084 Thank you. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 00:25:42 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: raining tache with a, g, e, and ampersand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline raining tache with a, g, e, and ampersand - Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 03:41:22 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0811171121s7b8402cdo64f5c3b6ccdc4e09@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What I was trying to say was: > > a) whether these conceptual constructs themselves develop a tradition > among > them, actually becoming a new kind of poem, protecting the ideal > (potential) > rather than the real (actual). > > b) Conceptual, more precisely process poems, The notions of conceptual art or conceptual poetry, however different from one another, should be distinguished from the notion of the process poem or process art. Basically, the former focusses on concept, the latter on process. The former can be without special interest in process and the latter can be without special interest in the conceptual. The Oulipo is conceptual in that they are more interested in the constraint than instances of realized texts. Similar to how a meta-mathematician might be more interested in the properties of formal systems in general than the properties of any particular formal system. Or the way that a poet might be more interested in poetics than poems. Many would then say the creature's a critic or something not a poet. Until faced with a Derrida or someone in that vein and of that quality. Similarly in math the mathematicians, when faced with Godel's work, which is more meta than the foundational level (i.e., it's *about* the foundations, not foundational), begin to see that *doing mathematics* can be practiced significantly at the meta level. The Oulipo is 'processual' in that they seem mainly interested in constraint-based, generative or processual creations. > have a tendency, as far as I > can see, of leading to a huge number of poems, a thousand, two thousand, > etc. This creates a crisis of reading them, basically, they become > "unreadable," only conceivable, unless one is ready to spend an eternity > on > each word. Converting the poem into its concept -conceiving its yet > undefined possibilities, which actually generated the activity in the > first > place- condenses this problem of relentless quantity into its essence. It's certainly a different type of reading. One of course is not obliged or asked to read thousands of texts but to get some sense of the range and nature of the generative capacity of the process. One is asked to read between the lines toward the big picture. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 07:34:34 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Xerolage 40 - John M. Bennett Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, Theory and Writing , fluxlist@yahoogroups.com, British & Irish poets Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X E R O L A G E 4 0 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Duh Hud by John M. Bennett "John M. Bennett seems to break fresh ground with each new volume. His =20= approach to the technical matters at hand is as practical and =20 unbiased, and playful, as is his search for a personal yet communal =20 diction. He makes poetry of the very obstacles and impediments that =20 would otherwise clog his way. And as a writer of applied poetry, he =20 demonstrates without exception that poetic procedure is itself a way =20 of life, that there exists a universe of "new strategies" just waiting =20= to be discovered. I declare we must identify John M. Bennett as being =20= one of the most active and present forces happening today." =97Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino more at: http://xexoxial.org/is/xerolage40/by/john_m_bennett The primary investigation of Xerolage is how collage technique of 20th =20= century art, typography, computer graphics, visual & concrete poetry =20 movements & the art of the copier have been combined. Each issue is =20 devoted to the work of one artist. 24 pages, 8.5 x 11, $6 includes postage Subscriptions: 4 issues/$20 XEXOXIAL EDITIONS 10375 Cty Hway Alphabet La Farge WI 54639 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 07:35:37 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Xerolage 41 - Lawrence Upton Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, Theory and Writing , fluxlist@yahoogroups.com, British & Irish poets Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X E R O L A G E 4 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Scat Songs by Lawrence Upton based on a text by Chris Funkhouser from the introduction: Almost everything, over and above the initial tearing, trampling and tangling of the image was done by me, quite deliberately, as I used the copier, by breaking with common sense and / or the copier's manual. At that stage, very little was produced and very little was thrown away. The initial run of images ran to 31, which was cut down to 24 by selection; and , of the remaining 24, 11 were changed by tearing away unwanted material before being recopied. Xerolage 41 - Lawrence UptonThe aim was to get as near as possible to an improvisation in real time. The second session was much shorter. This time, I had 11 sheets; each had an attached note with a brief action- prompt. The copier made the 11 copies and that was that. The two sets of finished images were then sorted together. The title, Scat Songs, came late. What I aimed for, retrospectively, in Scat Songs was to get 24 varying images with 24 presses of the button. 42 presses isn't bad. Maybe I'll improve on that in make any future copier poem. Yet such an improvement would not necessarily make the result aesthethically better or worse. It's just a constraint, like any other, to encourage concentration, a taking of structural form into poetic procedures, which I tilt. more at: http://xexoxial.org/is/xerolage41/by/lawrence_upton The primary investigation of Xerolage is how collage technique of 20th century art, typography, computer graphics, visual & concrete poetry movements & the art of the copier have been combined. Each issue is devoted to the work of one artist. 24 pages, 8.5 x 11, $6 includes postage Subscriptions: 4 issues/$20 XEXOXIAL EDITIONS 10375 Cty Hway Alphabet La Farge WI 54639 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 10:01:18 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Re: [webartery] Always wild, words unwind: the wildverse of mIEKAL aND Comments: To: webartery@yahoogroups.com Comments: cc: Theory and Writing , British & Irish poets , spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, fluxlist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <1351140C-A54E-41C7-822D-689D3422095D@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Wonderful interview, fantastic gardens...I am really intrigued by those figs! - Peter Ciccariello On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 8:05 AM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > Always wild, words unwind: the wildverse of mIEKAL aND > > http://www.vimeo.com/2254233 > > C. Merhl Bennett questions mIEKAL aND > 30 minute documentary interview on site in the gardens of Dreamtime > Village. > > Published in The Madhatter Review #10 > madhattersreview.com/issue10/index.shtml > > Video by Camille Bacos > driftlessmedia.com > __._,_.___ Messages in this topic > ( > 1) Reply (via web post) > | Start > a new topic > > Messages| > Files| > Photos| > Links| > Database| > Polls| > Members| > Calendar > [image: Yahoo! Groups] > Change settings via the Web(Yahoo! ID required) > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest| Switch > format to Traditional > Visit Your Group > | Yahoo! > Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe > > Recent Activity > > > Visit Your Group > > Y! Entertainment > > World of Star Wars > > Rediscover the force. > > Explore now. > Need traffic? > > Drive customers > > With search ads > > on Yahoo! > Drive Traffic > > Sponsored Search > > can help increase > > your site traffic. > . > > __,_._,___ > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 07:27:02 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Cara Benson Subject: collaborative poem at Bookthug for ephemera fans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable go here and find some fun POEM BY NUMBERS by Cara Be= =A0hey kids,=0A=0Ago here and find some fun=0A=0APOEM BY NUMBERS by Cara Be= nson Amanda Earl Hugh Thomas=0AComposed simultaneously in East Greenbush NY= , Ottawa ON, and somewhere in Norway=0A=0ABookThug Moments Cafe=0A=A0=0Ahtt= p://bookthug.ca/proddetail.php?prod=3DMC1=0Ahttp://bookthug.ca/moments.php= =0A=0ABest!=0A=0ACara=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A(sorry for all the httyping - never kno= w what links will shine through on a forward)=0A=A0=0ASous Rature=A0=0A=0A= =0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:50:52 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081117160401.06c94c68@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I agree with Mark. I would be very sorry to see Barry Schwabsky go away fro= m this list, he is one of the most sensitive and intelligent contributors. Something similar happened to me once while queuing up at the canteen at university (eons ago). A guy whom I hadn't seen for ages screamed out: "Anny, we haven't seen you for a while!" To which I answered back: "I have been working like a negro..." And a black guy jumped up, "How do negroes work?" I felt like answering as *Turks smoke*, which would have triggered a senseless chain of ethnic insanity. I thus apologized, even if as Mark says= , sayings are sayings and they belong to the general culture. I was the one who was working, and no one else. On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Mark Weiss wrote= : > Barry: > > Don't let the legions of the politically hyper-correct get to you. This > discussion is profoundly silly. All sorts of things in every language are > ascribed to one nationality or another and become dictionary-sanctified f= or > reasons often lost in time. The Spanish Influenza didn't originate in Spa= in, > nor the Hong Kong version in Hong Kong, and the tourism industry thrives = in > both places. I doubt that the French lose much sleep over "french letter"= as > a term for a male birth control device that helps prevent the french > disease, though the terms certainly go back to an English view of the Fre= nch > as licentious--a stone I think nobody has thrown since at least the Profu= mo > scandal. For Spanish speakers la carisia francesa is cunnilingus, and in > English we french kiss and there's also greek love, though the practices = are > pretty universal. I have no idea if the parasite that's killing off Ameri= can > elm trees really originated in the Netherlands, but it's still the Dutch = Elm > Disease. Japanese knotweed, another parasite, grows all over China and > Korea. Jew's harp is apparently a corruption of jaws harp--maybe sharks > should be miffed (they always seem to be miffed). Language, thank god, is= a > repository of history. Cleansing it of anything that anyone might find > offensive would also cleanse it of much of the cultural data it stores. > > Mark > > At 05:42 AM 11/16/2008, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > >> I have to say that, finally, I feel physically ill from the feeling of >> having been implicitly accused of holding and fomenting a vile prejudice= . >> There has been talk of language as a loaded weapon and of people feeling >> stabbed by how they are characterized. Well, I feel like I am on the >> receiving end of those things. I don't to get into a contest of >> sensitivities but=C2 it is very difficult for me to see how I can partic= ipate >> in a group where I feel that such views are being held of me so I think = I >> have to withdraw, at least for now. >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=20 Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:02:16 -0800 Reply-To: jkarmin@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: SUBMISSIONS: E-Poetry Barcelona MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Call for papers and works: E-Poetry is both a conference and a festival on digital poetry. The festival is the most significant digital literary gathering in the field. Authors and researchers worldwide meet and present their researches and works. Deadline: before December 1, 2008 Complete information at: http://www.uoc.edu/in3/hermeneia/e-poetry_barcelona_09/eng/index.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 11:52:27 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kate Soto Subject: Poetry and Poetics Events at the University of Chicago This Week Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wednesday, November 19, 4:30 PM Liesl Olson: Gertrude Stein=92s Habits Classics 110 1010 E. 59th St. Chicago, IL 60637 Reception to follow. Gertrude Stein locates habit=97rather than innovation=97as the most =20 animating force in the English literary tradition. Stein inherits her =20= mentor William James=92s belief in the benefits of habit, and she values = =20 especially the pleasure of repetition. This value stands apart from a =20= dominating ethos against habit, best articulated by one of literary =20 modernism=92s key precursors, Walter Pater. Stein=92s emphasis on habit =20= throughout her ouevre=97both stylistic and ideological=97becomes central = =20 to what she wrote while living in German-occupied France. Habits both =20= mask the disruption that war creates, dissolving the consequences of =20 the world into the space of the home, and paradoxically work as a way =20= in which war itself can be best represented. Stein=92s World War II =20 writings foreground habit=92s crucial utility, but ultimately they also =20= call attention to habit=92s political inadequacy. This lecture draws =20 from her forthcoming book, Modernism and the Ordinary (Oxford 2009). History and Forms of Lyric Series, Sponsored by the Program in Poetry =20= and Poetics Thursday, November 20, 4:30 PM August Kleinzahler Rosenwald 405 1101 E. 58th St. Chicago, IL 60637 Reception to follow. August Kleinzahler published his first book of poetry, A Calendar of =20 Airs, in 1978. Since then, he has published seven others, including =20 Storm over Hackensack (1985); Earthquake Weather (1989); Red Sauce =20 Whiskey and Snow (FSG, 1995); Green Sees Things in Waves (FSG, 1998); =20= and Live from the Hong Kong Nile Club: Poems 1975=961990 (FSG, 2000). In = =20 2003, Farrar, Straus and Giroux published The Strange Hours Travelers =20= Keep, which won the 2004 Griffin International Poetry Prize and the =20 2004 Gold Medal in Poetry from the Commonwealth Club of California, =20 and was short-listed for the U.K.=92s Forward Prize in Poetry. His most =20= recent collection of poetry is Sleeping It Off in Rapid City (FSG, =20 2008). He is also the author of a book of prose, Cutty, One Rock: Low =20= Characters and Strange Places, Gently Explained (FSG, 2004). Sponsored by the Poem Present Reading and Lecture Series. Friday, November 21, 1:00 PM Poetry & Jazz: An Experiment. Harper 148 1116 E. 59th St. Chicago, IL 60637 Reception to follow. August Kleinzahler will be discussing the experiments of reading =20 poetry to jazz accompaniment in the 1950s and early '60s--Rexroth, =20 Ferlinghetti, Kerouac, Patchen, Logue, et al--and the intellectual/=20 cultural background and impulse behind these experiments, chief of =20 among these: jazz emerging as a folk-based "art music," as opposed to =20= dance music or popular entertainment; and the notion of the "negro" as =20= ennobled outsider, existential hero. He'll also discuss instances of =20 black jazz artists, like Mingus and George Russell, going the reverse =20= direction and mixing poetry into the their musical compositions. Sponsored by the Poem Present Reading and Lecture Series. These events are free and open to the public. If you need assistance =20 in order to participate, contact 773/834-8524. Kate Soto Coordinator The Committee on Creative Writing The Program in Poetry and Poetics University of Chicago Walker Museum 411 // 773.834.8524 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 11:35:01 -0800 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081117160401.06c94c68@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Barry, I don't think anyone participating in this discussion has any intere= st in any way in turning you into a scape goat.=A0 In my view, and in terms= of my input, the focus is on the negative ramifications of the term "Niger= ian scam."=A0 I have found it interesting (at least), and provocative when = some have risen to defend the use of the term.=20 This culture (American) if not elsewhere is obviously constantly wrestling = with how to make descriptions accurate as opposed to defamatory. Sometimes = I find the replacing terms=A0 ridiculous, or charmless, as say,'vertically = disenfranchised' for short people previously perjoratively described as som= ebody else.=20 Mark is quite right=A0 to suggest the 'politically correct' is not necessar= ily 'accurate' either. I find it off-putting, to dismiss the discussion as = "silly". If I were Chinese, for example, I think I would be uncomfortable w= ith the term 'Asian Flu' as an annual moniker.=A0 But I will leave Mark's v= iew for others to judge.=20 To personalize too much is probably the most prevalent disease among poets!= =20 Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ --- On Mon, 11/17/08, Mark Weiss wrote: From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: David To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 1:04 PM Barry: Don't let the legions of the politically=20 hyper-correct get to you. This discussion is=20 profoundly silly. All sorts of things in every=20 language are ascribed to one nationality or=20 another and become dictionary-sanctified for=20 reasons often lost in time. The Spanish Influenza=20 didn't originate in Spain, nor the Hong Kong=20 version in Hong Kong, and the tourism industry=20 thrives in both places. I doubt that the French=20 lose much sleep over "french letter" as a term=20 for a male birth control device that helps=20 prevent the french disease, though the terms=20 certainly go back to an English view of the=20 French as licentious--a stone I think nobody has=20 thrown since at least the Profumo scandal. For=20 Spanish speakers la carisia francesa is=20 cunnilingus, and in English we french kiss and=20 there's also greek love, though the practices are=20 pretty universal. I have no idea if the parasite=20 that's killing off American elm trees really=20 originated in the Netherlands, but it's still the=20 Dutch Elm Disease. Japanese knotweed, another=20 parasite, grows all over China and Korea. Jew's=20 harp is apparently a corruption of jaws=20 harp--maybe sharks should be miffed (they always=20 seem to be miffed). Language, thank god, is a=20 repository of history. Cleansing it of anything=20 that anyone might find offensive would also=20 cleanse it of much of the cultural data it stores. Mark At 05:42 AM 11/16/2008, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >I have to say that, finally, I feel physically=20 >ill from the feeling of having been implicitly=20 >accused of holding and fomenting a vile=20 >prejudice. There has been talk of language as a=20 >loaded weapon and of people feeling stabbed by=20 >how they are characterized. Well, I feel like I=20 >am on the receiving end of those things. I don't=20 >to get into a contest of sensitivities but=C2 it=20 >is very difficult for me to see how I can=20 >participate in a group where I feel that such=20 >views are being held of me so I think I have to withdraw, at least for now= . > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept=20 >all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 11:45:29 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: bo In-Reply-To: <0A179C49A3624438AE0F09EB01811ACB@johnbedroom> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Nov 10, 2008, at 9:08 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > I would have to disagree with you, George. I would say that the > Canadian > government is slightly to the right of the Democrats but this is > because of > the minority status. With Harper being Bush's sidekick and with Harper > exercising rigid control over the Conservative Party, I'd say that > Harper > would like the Conservative Party to be as right-wing as the > Republicans - > and he will do so if he ever gets a majority which, blessedly, this > time > around was prevented through the wisdom of Canadian voters. > John Cunningham > The more I look at Harper and his cabinet [Harper Harper Harper Harper, etc] the more I am coming to agree with you. But I do remember the good old days, when Diefenbaker was to the left of Kennedy. George Hermann Bowering No ring tones for me. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:03:07 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: While the He/art Pants: (Poetic Responses to the 2008 American Elections) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm happy to say that my poem appears here: http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2693=A0=20 Otherwise, THE LIST IS GROWING @ The Poet=92s Corner http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D322=A0 =A0 =B7 Edward Mycue =B7 Jared Schickling =B7 Bill Morgan =B7 John M. Bennett =B7 Conrad Reeder =B7 Tom McBride =B7 Gerald Schwartz =B7 Farideh Hassanzadeh-Mostafavi =B7 Russ Golata =B7 Evelyn Posamentier =B7 Gina Sangster Hayman =B7 Matt Johnson =B7 Susan Bright =B7 Daniel Zimmerman =B7 Fan Ogilvie =B7 Henry Gould =B7 Carol Novack =B7 Joseph Duemer =B7 Peter Ciccariello =B7 Spencer Selby =B7 Eugen Galasso =B7 Grace Cavalieri =B7 Amy King - STATE OF A NATION =B7 Halvard Johnson =B7 Raymond Bianchi =A0 =96Submit to Anny Ballardini and Obododimma Oha @ The Poet=92s Cornerhttp://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2664 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And thanks to Elizabeth Kate Switaj for her recent review of my poem, "Men = By the Lips of Women" here: http://blog.elizabethkateswitaj.net/?p=3D538 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Enjoy! Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:52:22 -0800 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: Kay Ryan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =A0 http://www.slate.com/id/2196198/ =A0 Assessing Kay Ryan, poet laureate. =A0 Slate.=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:09:06 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=A1Goodreads_?= Monthly Newsletter Poem Contest! Comments: To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =09=09* DO YOU WANT YOUR WORDS TO MEET 1.6 MILLION PEOPLE? * The Goodreads=92 editors have invited us to participate in the selection of each poem that will appear in the Goodreads=92 Monthly Newsletter. 1. Post your best poem (one poem per person) in this folder. 2. I will select five poems each month to be voted on by the Goodreads comm= unity. 3. The poem with the most votes will be published in the Goodreads=92 newsl= etter =96 distributed each month to 1.6 million people! Good luck & please post your best work! Thanks, Amy King Moderator, Poetry @ Goodreads http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/233._POETRY_ _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:34:28 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mathew Timmons Subject: LA-Lit: Clouds :: Nov 21+22, 2008 at Betalevel and Center for the Arts Eagle Rock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline form-body-surface-material-method-growth-sound-mass-condensation atmospheric-nebulae-clarity-reveals-recreation-currents-groundless-texture connectivity-dense-manifest-rhythm-decenter-collaborate-surprise-confer-dis= perse LA-Lit: Clouds :: November 21+22, 2008 at Betalevel and Center for the Arts Eagle Rock Come celebrate LA-Lit's three year anniversary on Friday November 21 at Betalevel and on Saturday November 22 at Center for the Arts Eagle Rock. Fo= r over three years, LA-Lit has developed a new space for the literary culture of Los Angeles to develop and exhibit itself. Reflecting the shifting natur= e of Los Angeles, LA-Lit has conducted well over thirty interviews with poets and writers who have lived in LA all their lives as well as writers who hav= e visited LA for only a few days. Please join us for LA-Lit: Clouds :: a two day conference in Los Angeles connecting the decentered literary culture of LA in an effort to investigate it's current manifestations and to develop a sense of LA's inherent literary spontaneity. LA-Lit: Clouds :: Schedule Friday November 21: 8:00pm-11:00pm: Perform and Celebrate at Betalevel Stan Apps, Teresa Carmody, Amarnath Ravva, Lisa Samuels, Christine Wertheim Saturday November 22: Confer at Center for the Arts Eagle Rock 12:00pm-1:30pm form-body-surface-material-method-growth-sound-mass condensation-structure-elements-foreground-background Panelists: Stan Apps, Guy Bennett, Christine Wertheim, Ara Shirinyan 2:00pm-3:30pm atmospheric-nebulae-clarity-reveals-recreation-currents groundless-textured-visible-droplets-interstellar-crystalline Panelists: Will Alexander, Teresa Carmody, Amarnath Ravva, Mark Wallace 4:30pm-6:00pm Perform at Center for the Arts Eagle Rock Demosthenes Agrafiotis, Will Alexander, Guy Bennett, K. Lorraine Graham, Sawako Nakayasu, Ara Shirinyan, Mark Wallace LA-Lit - http://LA-Lit.com Betalevel =96 in the alley behind 963 N. Hill St, Los Angeles, CA 90012 http://betalevel.com/ Center for the Arts Eagle Rock =96 2225 Colorado Blvd, Los Angeles, CA 9004= 1 http://www.centerartseaglerock.org/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:08:54 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Justin Katko Subject: Raworth in Providence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Tom Raworth will read his poems this Thursday, 6pm November 20th, at Symposium Books in Providence. The address is 240 Westminster Street. Copies of Tom's most recent pamphlet, Let Baby Fall, will be available. You can also purchase them online: http://plantarchy.us/let-baby-fall.html. If you're in Boston, New Haven, Philly, New York, Hell, YOU BETTER SHOW UP AND BASICALLY LIKE TOTALLY REPRESENT. Justin Katko ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:49:59 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: THIS FRIDAY - Carnahan, Casamassima, Grinnell, Lederer, Oberman, and Rohrer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friday, November 21, 2008 @ 7:00 p.m. =A0 November 21st @ 7 p.m. - Stain Bar - Williamsburg, Brooklyn =A0 ** Carnahan, Casamassima, Grinnell, Lederer, Oberman, and Rohrer ** =A0 Special Musical Guest @ Intermission: Addenda =A0 Brooklyn resident Kerry Carnahan has co-authored and edited a number of publications, including the New York City High Performance Infrastructure Guidelines, Cool and Green Roofs, and Sustainable Urban Site= s (forthcoming), and is working towards her MFA in poetry from CUNY-Hunter Co= llege. =A0 ~~~ Christophe Casamassima is the editor and proprietor of furniture_press in Baltimore where he teaches at Towson University. He is also the Literary Arts Director of the Towson Arts Collective. His collections of poetry include t= he Proteus (Moria, 2008) and Joys: A Catalogue of Disappointments (BlazeVOX, 2008). =A0 ~~~ =A0 E. TracyGrinnell is the author of Some Clear Souvenir (O Books, 2006) and Music or Forgetting (O Books, 2001), as well as the limite= d edition chapbooks Leukadia (Trafficker Press, forthcoming 2008), Quadriga, = a collaboration with Paul Foster Johnson (gong chapbooks, 2006), Of the Frame (Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs, 2004), and Harmonics (Melodeon Poetry System= s, 2000). She lives in Brooklyn and edits Litmus Press and its annual journal of poetry and translation, Aufgabe. =A0 ~~~ Katy Lederer is the author of the poetry collections, Winter Sex (Verse Press, 2002) and The Heaven-Sent Leaf (BOA Editions, forthcoming 2008 ) as well as the memoir Poker Face: A Girlhood Among Gamblers (Crown, 2003), which Publishers Weekly included on its list of the Best Nonfiction Books of 2003 and Esquire Magazine named one of its eight Best Books of the Year 2003. =A0 ~~~~ =A0 Miller Oberman was the 2005 recipient of Poetry Magazine's Ruth Lilly Fellowship and has recently had poems in Bloom Magazine, the Minnesota Review, and Lilith. Miller lives in Brooklyn with Zero Oberman. =A0 ~~~~ =A0 =A0 Matthew Rohrer is the author of five books, most recently RISE UP, published by Wave Books. He teaches at NYU in the creative writing program, and lives in Brooklyn. =A0 ~~~ =A0 SPECIAL INTERMISSION GUEST =A0 =A0 While Addenda is just beginning, there's a history. Dan Sofaer and Christopher Anderson first met when Christopher was the singer i= n the Washington, D.C. band Nine Men Are Suicides. After being musical director for the recording of the one song the band knew how to pla= y (Sister Ray by the Velvet Underground), Dan went on to be a founding member= of the Silence After and Christopher rejoined him in '88 for the short-lived Hurricane Daisy, whose killer demo had Fugazi's Don Zientara for its produc= er. After years in the wilderness, Dan reemerged as bassist in the San Francisc= o trio Giant Haystacks, and Christopher posted some Prince covers on MySpace. A chance note from Japan = has reunited them, and they're ready to bring the spirit to the letter. =A0 You can find their music at myspace.com/addenda =A0 ~~~~ =A0 stain 766 grand street brooklyn, ny 11211 (L train to Grand Street, 1 block west) 718/387-7840 open daily @ 5 p.m. =A0 ~~~~ =A0 Hosted by Amy King and Ana Bozicevic =A0 ~~~~ http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/ http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/ http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/ _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:17:59 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Wanda Phipps Subject: Yara Arts Group Book & Film Night: In a Different Light Comments: To: Angelavaleria@aol.com, annabellati@yahoo.com, audiodali@aol.com, CARSEAT@aol.com, danielmnester@hotmail.com, dianespodarek@earthlink.net, info@poetryproject.com, nedvizzini@gmail.com, philipkholos@yahoo.com, stevie@stephansmith.com, Tommyphoto@aol.com, Aaron Kiely , Abigail Child , Adeena Karasick , airin kiley , Alan Berliner , Alan Sondheim , Alex & Ada Katz , Alice McIntyre , Alison Davis , Alison Granucci , Amir Parsa , Ammiel Alcalay , Amy Boaz , Amy King , Amy Mayhem , Anastasia Clark , Ancel Star , Andrea Urist , Anna Moschovakis , Anne Tardos , Anne Waldman , Anselm Berrigan , Azul Arco Iris , Bara Jicchova , Barbara Moore , Barbara Rosenthal & Bill Creston , Bill Adler , Bill Luoma , Bill Woods , Bob Holman , Bradley Eros , Brenda Coultas , Brenda Ijima , Brendan Lorber , Brian Stefans , Bruce Andrews , Bruce Andrews , bruce weber , Carl Watson , Carol Novack , Cassandra Stark-Mele , Cathy Zaderetsky , Charles Bernstein , Charles Borkhuis , Cheryl Guttman , Chris Brandt , Chris Ferry , Chris Rael , Christopher Archie , Christopher Funkhouser , Christopher Stackhouse , Chuma Yoshiko , Cliff Fyman , Corey Frost , Dael Orlandersmith , Dan Shuman , Dana Bryant , Daniela Gioseffi , Danny Shot Shot , Danny Tunick , Darius James , Darius James , Dave Gearey , Dave Keener , Dave Nolan , David Kirschenbaum , David Mills , David Sassian , David Vogen , deanna zandt , Deb DeSalvo , Deb DeSalvo , Debbie Beeshaw , Deborah Edelson , "defreita@netscape.net" , "Dorothy F. August" , Dougie Bowne , Douglas Rothschild , Drew Gardner , Ed Friedman , Ed Morales , Edmund Berrigan , Edwin Torres & Liz Castagna , Eileen Myles , Elinor Nauen Nauen , ellie Ga , Elliott Sharp , Emily Raboteau , Emily Robbins , Emily Wasserman , Emilya Cachapero , Emmeline Chang , eric rasmussen , Erica Hunt , Eszter Balint , Ethan Fugate , Filip , fly , Francine , Frank Shifreen , Fun Palace , Gail Ward , Galinsky , "Gary A. Lenhart Lenhart" , Gary Lucas , Geo , Geoffrey Cruickshank-Hagenbuckle , Gillian McCain , Greg Fuchs , Greg Masters , Greg Polvere , Greg Trupiano , Hal Sirowitz , Hal Willner , Harold Goldberg , Harris Schiff , Hiroshi Noguchi , Ian Wilder , Jan Clausen , Janie Heath , Jeff Wright , Jeff Wright , Jeffrey Joe Nelson , Jelena Karanovic , Jena Osman , Jennifer Knox , Jennifer Reeves , jill egan , Joan Wasser , Joanna Fuhrman , Joe Fyfe , Joe Maynard , Joel Schlemowitz , Joel Schlemowitz , John Guth , "John S. Hall" , Johnny Lanz , Josette Urso , Judith Ren-Lay Ren-Lay , judy gorman , Julien Poirier , Kara Rondina , Karalla , Karin Coonrod , Kathleen Connell , Katie Degentesh , Katie Takahashi , Katy Lederer , Kelley Brower , Ken Jordan , Kim Lyons , larissa shmailo , Laura Biagi , Laura Elrick , Laura Paris , Laurie Stone , Lee Ann Brown , Lee Ann Brown , Lenny Kaye , Lenora Champagne , Leonard Abrams , Lewis Warsh , Liah Alonso , Lifebridge Foundation , Lili White , Linda Burchill , Linda Chapman , Lisa Karrer , Lisa Ozag , Lo Gallucio , Lo Gallucio , Louis Parascandola , Lydia Cortes , Lynne Tillman , Maggie Dubris , Maggie Ens , Marco Villalobos , Margaret Morton , Margery Brown , Maria Pignataro Nielsen , Marianne Shaneen , Mariano Groppa , Marisol Martinez , Mark Lamoureux , "Matina L. Stamatakis" , Matt Kohn , Matt Turk , Matvei Yankelevich , Matvei Yankelevich , Melissa Ulto , Meredith Wright , Michael Almereyda , Michael Azzerad , Michael Buscemi , Michael Hazzard , Michael Lally , Michael Witt , Michele Madigan Somerville , Mike Doughty , Mike Topp , Mitch Highfill , MM Serra , Mums the Schmer , Murat Nemat-Nejet , Nao , Nathaniel Siegel , Nelson Alexander , Oleg Dubson , Olena Siyanko , Oliver Wadsworth Wadsworth , Patricia Chao , Paul Nocera , Peri Lyons , Phyllis Capello , Prageeta Sharma , Ra-Re Valverde , Rachel Levistsky , Ram Devineni , Rebecca Moore , reg e gaines , Regie Cabico , Richard Kostelanetz , Richard Nash , Rob Hardin , robert fitterman , Robin Blum , Rodrgio Tuscano , Roger Nelson , Rosan Battle , Sally Silvers , Sandra Payne , Sapphire , Schuman Wade , Sean Eden , Shanna Compton , Sharon Mesmer , Shelley Marlow , Shepard Sobel , Sheri Wills , Shona Tucker , Sparrow , Stephan Smith , Stephan Smith , "Stephen B. Antonakos" , Stephen Vitiello , Steve Clay , Steve Dalachinsky & Yuko Otomo , Steve Ehrenberg , Steve Holtje , Steve Wishnia , Su Friedrich , Susan Brennan , "Susan L. Yung" , Susan Sherman , Sybil Kollar , Thaddeus Rutkowski , Thaya Salamacha , Thom Donovan , thomas paul , Tom Keener , Tom Lee , Tom Savage , Tomas Casas , Tomas Doncker , Tommy Horan , Tony Towle , Tonya Foster , Tracie Morris , tsaurah Litzky , uni aum Entertainment , Victoria Luther , Vincent Katz , Vincent Katz , Virlana Tkacz , Virlana Tkacz , Watoku Ueno , William Austin , William Black , William Burgos , Zeena Parkins , Zero Boy , Zhanna Rohalska MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hope you can make this: Yara Arts Group Book & Film Night: In a Different Light A Book & Film Night will include the presentation and signing of In a Different Light, a bilingual anthology of Ukrainian literature that has been performed by the Yara Arts Group (with translations into English by Virlana Tkacz and Wanda Phipps), and a screening of Light from the East, Amy Grappell's documentary about the massive political upheaval in 1991 that led to Ukraine's declaration of independence (originally released in 2006; re-edited in 2008; 55 minutes). FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 2008, 7 p.m. Admission (includes reception): $15; $10 Museum members and seniors; $5 students The Ukrainian Museum 222 East Sixth Street (between 2nd & 3rd Avenues) New York, New York 10003 Tel: 212.228.0110 Wed-Sun 11:30 a.m. - 5:00 p.m. -- Wanda Phipps Check out my websites: http://www.mindhoney.com and http://www.myspace.com/wandaphippsband My latest book of poetry Field of Wanting: Poems of Desire available at: http://www.blazevox.org/bk-wp.htm And my 1st full-length book of poems Wake-Up Calls: 66 Morning Poems available at:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/193236031X/ref=rm_item ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 00:09:46 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: Boog City=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=B9s_?= NYC Small Presses Night This Tues. Nov. 25 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable please forward ------------------- =20 Boog City presents=20 d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press =20 New York City Small Presses Night =20 with =20 Farfalla Press, Open 24 Hours, :::the press gang:::, and X-ing Books =20 Tues. Nov. 25, 6:00 p.m. sharp, free =20 ACA Galleries 529 W.20th St., 5th Flr. NYC =20 This is our one event each season in our non-NYC small presses series where we honor NYC small presses. =20 Featuring readings from poets from some of the city's finest small presses as well as publications available from each of the presses. =20 **Farfalla Press, Gary Parrish, ed. --I Feel Tractor --Anne Waldman **Open 24 Hours, John Coletti and Greg Fuchs, eds. --Erica Kaufman **:::the press gang:::, Cristiana Baik and Sara Wintz, eds. --Evan Kennedy **X-ing Books, Amy Mees and Mark Wagner, eds. --Jeremy Schmall --Justin Taylor There will be wine, cheese, and crackers, too. =20 -- =20 Boog City 53, our New York City Small Presses Issue, published in conjunction with the above event, features pages put together by the participating four presses. **Farfalla Press--Edmund Berrigan and Anne Waldman **Open 24 Hours--Erica Kaufman **:::the press gang:::--justin katko and Jow Lindsay, Evan Kennedy, and Manjula Martin **X-ing Books--Jeremy Schmall and Justin Taylor =20 As well as your usual swell Boog City content: Jim Behrle=B9s comic Dogs Don=B9= t Vote, and poems from Maxwell Heller, Holly Melgard, and Akilah Oliver. To read the pdf version go to: =20 http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/bc53.pdf =20 -- =20 Press and author bios =20 **Farfalla Press/McMillan & Parrish http://www.farfallapress.blogspot.com http://www.spdbooks.org/root/pages/serp.asp?Title=3D&Author=3D&Subtitle=3Dfarfall= a +press&ISBN=3D&submit=3DSearch Farfalla Press/McMillan & Parrish is an independent small press surfacing from Naropa University's Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics and based in Brooklyn. It puts out perfect-bound books, chapbooks, broadsides, and CD's. Artists include Vanessa Boff, Rob Geisen, Jack Collom, Tom Peters= , Gary Parrish, LeAnn Bifoss, Akilah Oliver, Junior Burke, Christopher Ryan, John Sakkis, Peter Lamborn Wilson (Hakim Bey), Bobbie Louise Hawkins, Anne Waldman, Edmund Berrigan, Anselm Berrigan, Marcella Durand, Jessica Fiorini= , Jessica Rogers, Lee Ranaldo, Corrine Fitzpatrick, Stefania Iryne Marthakis, Brenda Coultas, Simon Pettet, John Coletti, Dustin Williamson, Lewis Warsh, Kristin Prevallet, Stacy Szymaszek, John High, Nathaniel A. Siegel, Arlo Quint, Chris Martin, Tyler Burba, George Schneeman, Shappy Seasholtz, Bob Holman, Bernadette Mayer, Reed Bye, Ambrose Bye. *I Feel Tractor http://www.myspace.com/ifeeltractor http://www.goodbyebetter.com/ I Feel Tractor is available to you with musings of space folk and cut ups. = I Feel Tractor has a self-titled 7=B2 from the Loudmouth Collective, and a CD, Once I Had an Earthquake, from Goodbye Better. *Anne Waldman http://www.naropa.edu/swp/faculty/a_waldman.cfm http://almostisland.com/poetry/WALDMAN2.html Anne Waldman, poet, professor, performer, curator, and cultural activist, i= s the author of over 40 books and small press editions of poetry and poetics, including Fast Speaking Woman, the IOVIS project, Vow to Poetry: Essays, Interviews and Manifestos, Marriage: A Sentence, In the Room of Never Grieve, Structure of the World Compared to a Bubble, Outrider, and Nine Nights Meditation (with artist Donna Dennis). She is the editor of numerous anthologies, including The Beat Book, and co-editor of Disembodied Poetics: Annals of the Jack Kerouac School, The Angel Hair Anthology, and Civil Disobediences: Poetics and Politics in Action (with Lisa Birman). Her CDs include Alchemical Elegy, Battery: Live at Naropa, The Eye of the Falcon, and The Matching Half (the last two with music and production by Ambrose Bye). She is a recipient of the Shelley Memorial Award and has had residences at the Civitella Ranieri Center, the Tokyo Woman=B9s Christian University, the Emily Harvey Foundation in Venice, and the Bellagio Center. She has performed her work on stages across the American continent and abroad. Recent conferences and festivals have taken her to Wuhan (China), Berlin, Vienna and Dublin. She works with writer and director Ed Bowes on a number of video/movie projects. **Open 24 Hours =20 Open 24 Hours is dedicated to publishing limited edition books by poets working in traditions rooted in experimentation and social engagement. The Open 24 Hours design is influenced by the staple-bound mimeo revolution of the American small press underground most visibly recognized in the books published by many 2nd- and 3rd-generation New York School Poets. We have simply adapted the method to digital technology. =20 Open 24 Hours has published books by Mariana Ruiz Firmat, Corina Copp, Bets= y Fagin, Joel Dailey, Chris Toll, Steve Carey, Arlo Quint, Erica Kaufman, and Dustin Williamson. Forthcoming are books by David Kirschenbaum and Will Yakulic. =20 Open 24 Hours is based in New York City, edited and designed by John Colett= i and Greg Fuchs. Jon Allen is our in-house illustrator. We took the name fro= m D.C. poet Buck Downs, who published a poetry zine by the same name. Downs inherited Open 24 Hours from Baltimore poet Chris Toll, who started it in 1980. =20 You can reach them at greg@gregfuchs.com or acoldgobot@hotmail.com. *Erica Kaufman http://ericajane0808.googlepages.com/ Erica Kaufman is the author of several chapbooks, most recently censory impulse (an excerpt of her long poem of the same title) (OMG), civilization day (Open24Hours), and censory impulse (another excerpt of her long poem of the same title) (Big Game Books). Kaufman holds an MFA from the New School and was the winner of the 2003 New School University Chapbook Contest. Her poems can be found in Puppyflowers, Painted Bride Quarterly, Bombay Gin, Th= e Mississippi Review, Unpleasant Event Schedule, the tiny, Turntable + Blue Light, 26, Aufgabe, and LIT, among other places. Essays and reviews can be found in The Poetry Project Newsletter, CutBank, Rain Taxi, Verse, and elsewhere. Kaufman is currently a Ph.D. candidate at the CUNY Graduate Center. She lives in Brooklyn and works in Manhattan and teaches at Baruch College. **:::the press gang::: http://www.pressgangsters.com :::the press gang::: is a small press, co-directed by cristiana baik and sara wintz, publishing younger avant writers. *Evan Kennedy http://www.bookthug.ca/proddetail.php?prod=3D2424&cat=3D1 Evan Kennedy is the author of The Cheer-Up Book of Wounded Soldiers (Dirty Swan Projects) and Us Them Poems (BookThug). His work has appeared in "Tight," "Glosolalia," "Hot Whiskey," and The Poetry Project's "The Recluse." He lives in Brooklyn. **X-ing Books http://www.x-ingbooks.com/ Amy Mees and Mark Wagner are thing people. A list of their joint experience= s includes publishing art catalogs, cutting up money for art=B9s sake, letterpress printing, handcrafts (like Mom used to make), traditional book binding, and co-founding the Booklyn Artists Alliance. They are happy to associate freely with word people like Jeremy Schmall, Justin Taylor, Jen Benka, and ________ (fill in the blank). It=B9s a venture still in the making and we=B9re hoping to find other motivated and brilliant contributors. *Jeremy Schmall Jeremy Schmall is the co-editor and founder of The Agriculture Reader, and author of Open Correspondence from the Senator: Volume 1, But a Paucity of his Voluminous Writings. He lives in Brooklyn. *Justin Taylor http://www.justindtaylor.net/ Justin Taylor is the editor of The Apocalypse Reader (Thunder's Mouth) and Come Back, Donald Barthelme (McSweeney's). His work has appeared in numerou= s magazines, journals, and websites. He is the author of the book of poems More Perfect Depictions of Noise (X-ing Books) and, with the poet Jeremy Schmall, is co-editor of The Agriculture Reader, a handmade arts annual. ---- Curated and with an introduction by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum **Boog City http://www.welcometoboogcity.com Boog City is a New York City-based small press now in its 18th year and Eas= t Village community newspaper of the same name. It has also published 35 volumes of poetry and various magazines, featuring work by Allen Ginsberg and Lawrence Ferlinghetti among others, and theme issues on baseball, women=B9s writing, and Louisville, Ky. It hosts and curates two regular performance series=8Bd.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press, where each month a non-NYC small press and its writers and a musical act of their choosing is hosted at Chelsea=B9s ACA Galleries; and Classic Albums Live, where up to 13 local musical acts perform a classic album live at venues including The Bowery Poetry Club, Cake Shop, CBGB=B9s, and The Knitting Factory. Past albums have included Elvis Costello, My Aim is True; Nirvana, Nevermind; and Liz Phair, Exile in Guyville. ---- Directions: C/E to 23rd St., 1/9 to 18th St. Venue is bet. 10th and 11th avenues =20 Next event:=20 =20 Tues. Dec. 16, Dos Press (Maxwell, Texas) -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://www.welcometoboogcity.com T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:59:40 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: a nth In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed What did your mother throw away? What did she make you throw away? When playwright Tom Cone was a kid he had a box full of baseballs =20 autographed by all the players on both teams in the 1956 World =20 Series. His dad told him they would pay for his retirement one day. His mother gave them to some kids to play ball with. When I was a kid my mother heard about some bozo psychologist who =20 said that comic books would turn your kids into criminals, so she =20 made me get rid of my World=92s Finest Comics #1 etc. and my run of =20 Batman and Detective Comics (collectors will know where I was coming =20 from). Later she chucked out my complete 1951 Bremerton Blue Jackets =20 baseball uniform. When Jean Baird the human whirlwind heard these stories she said =20 there had to be an anthology there somewhere. So what do you think? Do you have a story such as this that you have =20 always wanted to tell, or have been telling for years? E-mail me at the above address, or e-mail Jean Baird at jeanbaird@shaw.ca Feel free to pass this suggestion on. Prose or verse acceptable. Photos and other illustrations encouraged.= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:38:05 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Raworth in Providence In-Reply-To: <3bf622560811181808k27d819fftdcd2a42100da1c67@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Raworth read in Minneapolis last week and was just terrific, so let me echo Justin's exhortations. YOU BETTER SHOW UP AND LIKE TOTALLY REPRUHZENT! Justin Katko wrote: > Tom Raworth will read his poems this Thursday, 6pm November 20th, at > Symposium Books in Providence. The address is 240 Westminster Street. Copies > of Tom's most recent pamphlet, Let Baby Fall, will be available. You can > also purchase them online: http://plantarchy.us/let-baby-fall.html. If > you're in Boston, New Haven, Philly, New York, Hell, YOU BETTER SHOW UP AND > BASICALLY LIKE TOTALLY REPRESENT. > > Justin Katko > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:03:34 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: <6393DEDCD324403780FEC69E4DF09CC8@OwnerPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, "It's certainly a different type of reading. One of course is not obliged or asked to read thousands of texts but to get some sense of the range and nature of the generative capacity of the process." Exactly. then one is experiencing the poem as a/in terms of a concept. Jim, when you look at oulipo in both its conceptual and procedural aspects, procedural limits leading to endless works within those limits, are you not saying these two aspects are related? Ciao, Murat On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 6:41 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > What I was trying to say was: >> >> a) whether these conceptual constructs themselves develop a tradition >> among >> them, actually becoming a new kind of poem, protecting the ideal >> (potential) >> rather than the real (actual). >> >> b) Conceptual, more precisely process poems, >> > > The notions of conceptual art or conceptual poetry, however different from > one another, should be distinguished from the notion of the process poem or > process art. Basically, the former focusses on concept, the latter on > process. The former can be without special interest in process and the > latter can be without special interest in the conceptual. > > The Oulipo is conceptual in that they are more interested in the constraint > than instances of realized texts. Similar to how a meta-mathematician might > be more interested in the properties of formal systems in general than the > properties of any particular formal system. Or the way that a poet might be > more interested in poetics than poems. > > Many would then say the creature's a critic or something not a poet. Until > faced with a Derrida or someone in that vein and of that quality. Similarly > in math the mathematicians, when faced with Godel's work, which is more meta > than the foundational level (i.e., it's *about* the foundations, not > foundational), begin to see that *doing mathematics* can be practiced > significantly at the meta level. > > The Oulipo is 'processual' in that they seem > mainly interested in constraint-based, generative or processual creations. > > have a tendency, as far as I >> can see, of leading to a huge number of poems, a thousand, two thousand, >> etc. This creates a crisis of reading them, basically, they become >> "unreadable," only conceivable, unless one is ready to spend an eternity >> on >> each word. Converting the poem into its concept -conceiving its yet >> undefined possibilities, which actually generated the activity in the >> first >> place- condenses this problem of relentless quantity into its essence. >> > > It's certainly a different type of reading. One of course is not > obliged or asked to read thousands of texts but to get some sense of the > range and nature of the generative capacity of the process. > > One is asked to read between the lines toward the big picture. > > ja > http://vispo.com > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:38:40 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: David Comments: To: steph484@pacbell.net In-Reply-To: <573261.65261.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable German measles, anyone? Many of the strange usages we've been talking=20 about occur in clusters, because of long-term=20 enmity between peoples, as in all the phrases=20 beginning with "french." Add "french bed" to my=20 list. The one-offs, like Nigerian scam or Asian=20 flu or Spanish influenza, are one-offs precisely=20 because they don't indicate or participate in a=20 larger derogation, even if that derogation exists=20 in other spheres--i.e., we certainly have plenty=20 of racism, but Nigerian scam isn't part of it,=20 and I doubt it provokes a racist image. It=20 certainly doesn't imply--I don't think in its=20 decade of usage has ever implied--a more general=20 view of Nigerians as schemers. It's a matter of circumstance and degree. It's a=20 good thing that we tend to filter out the openly=20 racist--I could do without phrases like "I jewed=20 him down," though "jews harp" doesn't bother me--doesn't carry a threat. How about the common (in the Caribbean) "Cubans=20 are the Jews of the Caribbean," meaning both=20 well-educated and given to argument. Or, as Lydia=20 Cabrera reports in El Monte (which, if you have=20 Spanish, run out to your nearest botanica and=20 buy), Jews and Chinese are the most dangerous mayomberos? These usages also tend to proliferate in=20 environments in which diverse peoples live=20 together in relative raucous comfort (like New=20 York or Havana). Italian haircut (ouch! ouch!)? Polish jokes? Moldavian= crud? What did I forget? Don't be embarrassed to chime in. I would be interested to know from those with=20 more experience in other countries than I have,=20 what common phrases include American, yankee, etc. I'm sure they exist. The question remains, given that all language=20 contains enormous stores of history, and that=20 some of that history is truly toxic, to what=20 degree are well-meaning people supposed to filter=20 before they speak? At what pont have we overly=20 limited communication? Or reduced ourselves to=20 stammering? Me, I'd be as conservative as=20 possible about self-censorship, and clearly we=20 each draw the line where it seems appropriate. In this case I'll stick with "silly." Some might=20 be offended if I called it "Californian." It is=20 interesting to know where others draw the line,=20 but less so when it smacks of prescription. Mark At 02:35 PM 11/18/2008, Stephen Vincent wrote: >Barry, I don't think anyone participating in=20 >this discussion has any interest in any way in=20 >turning you into a scape goat. In my view, and=20 >in terms of my input, the focus is on the=20 >negative ramifications of the term "Nigerian=20 >scam." I have found it interesting (at least),=20 >and provocative when some have risen to defend the use of the term. > >This culture (American) if not elsewhere is=20 >obviously constantly wrestling with how to make=20 >descriptions accurate as opposed to defamatory.=20 >Sometimes I find the replacing=20 >terms ridiculous, or charmless, as=20 >say,'vertically disenfranchised' for short=20 >people previously perjoratively described as somebody else. > >Mark is quite right to suggest the 'politically=20 >correct' is not necessarily 'accurate' either. I=20 >find it off-putting, to dismiss the discussion=20 >as "silly". If I were Chinese, for example, I=20 >think I would be uncomfortable with the term=20 >'Asian Flu' as an annual moniker. But I will=20 >leave Mark's view for others to judge. > >To personalize too much is probably the most prevalent disease among poets! > >Stephen V >http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > >--- On Mon, 11/17/08, Mark Weiss wrote: >From: Mark Weiss >Subject: Re: David >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 1:04 PM > >Barry: > >Don't let the legions of the politically >hyper-correct get to you. This discussion is >profoundly silly. All sorts of things in every >language are ascribed to one nationality or >another and become dictionary-sanctified for >reasons often lost in time. The Spanish Influenza >didn't originate in Spain, nor the Hong Kong >version in Hong Kong, and the tourism industry >thrives in both places. I doubt that the French >lose much sleep over "french letter" as a term >for a male birth control device that helps >prevent the french disease, though the terms >certainly go back to an English view of the >French as licentious--a stone I think nobody has >thrown since at least the Profumo scandal. For >Spanish speakers la carisia francesa is >cunnilingus, and in English we french kiss and >there's also greek love, though the practices are >pretty universal. I have no idea if the parasite >that's killing off American elm trees really >originated in the Netherlands, but it's still the >Dutch Elm Disease. Japanese knotweed, another >parasite, grows all over China and Korea. Jew's >harp is apparently a corruption of jaws >harp--maybe sharks should be miffed (they always >seem to be miffed). Language, thank god, is a >repository of history. Cleansing it of anything >that anyone might find offensive would also >cleanse it of much of the cultural data it stores. > >Mark > >At 05:42 AM 11/16/2008, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > >I have to say that, finally, I feel physically > >ill from the feeling of having been implicitly > >accused of holding and fomenting a vile > >prejudice. There has been talk of language as a > >loaded weapon and of people feeling stabbed by > >how they are characterized. Well, I feel like I > >am on the receiving end of those things. I don't > >to get into a contest of sensitivities but=C2 it > >is very difficult for me to see how I can > >participate in a group where I feel that such > >views are being held of me so I think I have to withdraw, at least for= now. > > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept > >all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept=20 >all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 23:38:22 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David - in reponse to both Bowering & Obododim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some of your views are obviously acceptable, but I have queries for = =0A=0A Some of your views are obviously acceptable, but I have queries for = the following taken from your post: =0A=0A"Certain Barry didn't invent 419= =0ALetters, nor the term "Nigerian email scam." Our arguing the term, while= =0Acertain tiresome by now, is what should happen with each problematizatio= n of=0Alanguage."=0A=0ADo we have to be inventors of words we use before we= are held accountable for the implications or meanings they express in our = communications? Do users not suggest that they subscribe to meanings implie= d or expressed in words they use? I personally believe that when I use word= s, I indicate that the meanings they convey are produced by me and I should= be humble and polite enough to apologize when my diction is read as offens= ive. We would be more than humpty dumpties if we force down meanings on peo= ple and do not care how they process them. I wonder why you think that expr= essing an objection to an expression (as an Affected) is "petty". =0A=0ABe = well.=0A-- Obododimma.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A= From: Ryan Daley =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0AS= ent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 4:24:36 AM=0ASubject: Re: David - in repons= e to both Bowering & Obododim=0A=0APoint taken. Though, my concern here is = namely with English and how the=0Aadjective, be it 419 or Nigerian, causes = assumptions about the referent. You=0Astate below, and I'd agree, that by s= aying 419 we are OBTing the crime,=0Awe're euphemistically obscuring the ac= tion. But is the adjective describing=0Aa permanent or temporal action, and= does that matter?=0A=0ASo, here comes the test: Does the world think less = of Nigeria with the=0Aoveruse of this adjective? Yes. The overuse turns int= o something similar to=0Aa snowclone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowclon= e.=0AAnd that's where the real offense comes in...not in the "feelings" of = a few,=0Abut in the tearing-down ability of words, when employed incorrectl= y, to=0Aappeal to the lazy part of us to sum up entire nations/races/region= s/sports=0Ateams. Hence, blaming Barry for the initial statement, as if he = were the=0Asole cause of the offense, seems petty. Certain Barry didn't inv= ent 419=0ALetters, nor the term "Nigerian email scam." Our arguing the term= , while=0Acertain tiresome by now, is what should happen with each problema= tization of=0Alanguage. =BFNo es cierto?=0A=0A-Ryan=0A=0AOn Mon, Nov 17, 20= 08 at 1:33 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote:=0A=0A> Ryan Daley= 's argument in the following excerpt from his previous post has=0A> caught = my attention:=0A>=0A> "As 419 is a term that refers to the law in the Niger= ian criminal code.=0A> Since=0A> there was a need to create this code in Ni= geria, it seems there was a=0A> problem there with email scams. Never has a= nyone stated that all scams or=0A> cons have come from Nigeria. This would = be silly. But...since it's 419=0A> Letters we're talking about and since th= ese letters come from Nigeria...we=0A> either call them Nigerian email scam= s, 419 Letters, or the less specific=0A> and=0A> much less accurate, scam e= mails."=0A>=0A> I would like Daley to know that just as HIV/AIDS has names = in Nigerian=0A> languages (with interesting derivations and patterns), what= is named 419=0A> also has names in many other languages of the world. Some= Nigerians simply=0A> started referring to the crime by the name of the law= that was enacted to=0A> crush it. It was there even before email became av= ailable to the public,=0A> way=0A> beyond the colonial period . Law enforce= ment agents used to refer to it=0A> (and=0A> some still do) as "OBT", which= means "Obtaining Goods by Tricks." Every=0A> society or language has its i= nteresting ways it manages etymology and=0A> synecdoche. If a society prefe= rs to call something by another thing=0A> associated with it, it would be a= n oversimplification to conclude that that=0A> type of experience only has = to do with that society (or even started in=0A> that=0A> society). There ar= e certainly other ways of naming the crime in other=0A> societies, and if w= e study those, we may find that they predate the=0A> internet. Not even Ben= jamin Lee Whorf with his hypothesis on linguistic=0A> relativity and lingui= stic determinism would conclude quickly that because=0A> there is a Nigeria= n law that people optionally use in identifying the=0A> crime,=0A> then it = is a typical Nigerian semiotic or problem.=0A>=0A> To choose to call it "N= igerian scams" or "Nigerian email scams" is to=0A> engage in the politics o= f labelling. Ok, why not the option "419 mails"? My=0A> friend, lexical cho= ice, especially with adjectives, has a lot to do with=0A> attitude. Are tho= se attitudes harmful or harmless? Now, don't tell me that=0A> writers do no= t consider facework in their diction. Such a writer that=0A> ignores facewo= rk is certainly not a "righer". Just part of the crowd.=0A>=0A> --- Obododi= mma Oha.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Ryan Daley wrote:=0A>=0A> > I think if you look back at my initial post,= you'll see that my intention=0A> > was to argue the point that the term wa= sn't meant to offend, and wasn't=0A> > offensive, though taking into accoun= t that we are bound to disagree. Most=0A> > here have lived and visited oth= er countries for what I'm sure are=0A> extensive=0A> > periods of time, and= thus know what being both a social and racial=0A> minority=0A> > might be = like. Many of these same travelers have probably found=0A> themselves=0A> >= part of marginalized communities of any kind, and might understand the=0A>= > problem of grouping, stereotyping and prejudice -- with firsthand=0A> kn= owledge=0A> > that it really does hurt all involved, of course, when we fin= d that our=0A> > dear=0A> > friends are the brunt of any type of colonialis= t (or any other type)=0A> > subjugation through language. I don't think any= one here would disagree.=0A> In=0A> > that regard, it's unnecessary to poin= t out that Americans are often=0A> slurred=0A> > in other countries. This, = in fact, shows the ignorance of many that claim=0A> > to=0A> > be superior = to Americans. Nevertheless, this is a different matter=0A> > altogether, as= it would be if we called all Nigerians "scam email=0A> writers";=0A> > how= ever, being called a warmonger implies that a person is actively=0A> > invo= lved=0A> > or supportive of a call to war, and thus it seems reductive to c= laim that=0A> > all Americans, just by the token of their being Americans, = are=0A> warmongers.=0A> >=0A> > But terming a response as "shaping discours= e" allows you to respond and=0A> > thus=0A> > "shape discourse" while dismi= ssing, or giving others reasons to dismiss,=0A> > the=0A> > comments they f= eel "shape discourse" in a way that they don't want it=0A> > shaped. I'm al= l for shaping the discourse, as long as others have that=0A> same=0A> > lat= itude. And they do, and have, shaped it. I won't claim the=0A> conversation= =0A> > is legit only when it goes the way I feel is fair and just.=0A> >=0A= > > But this conversation so far relates to emails, spam and scam in the fo= rm=0A> > of=0A> > the 419 letter. Whether David composed this letter or not= is moot: it's=0A> > what=0A> > got the discussion going...parochial or oth= erwise. And so...the 419=0A> Letter:=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > As 419 is a term tha= t refers to the law in the Nigerian criminal code.=0A> > Since=0A> > there = was a need to create this code in Nigeria, it seems there was a=0A> > probl= em there with email scams. Never has anyone stated that all scams or=0A> > = cons have come from Nigeria. This would be silly. But...since it's 419=0A> = > Letters we're talking about and since these letters come from=0A> Nigeria= ...we=0A> > either call them Nigerian email scams, 419 Letters, or the less= specific=0A> > and=0A> > much less accurate, scam emails.=0A> >=0A> > Call= it what you want. The syntax and goal of the email is the same, no=0A> > m= atter where the letters originates. But at least we know what criminal=0A> = > code=0A> > they're breaking in Nigeria...=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >= =0A> > On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 11:55 PM, Alexander Jorgensen <=0A> > storag= ebag001@yahoo.com> wrote:=0A> >=0A> > > I think I said something about list= ening and parochialism - to repeat=0A> the=0A> > > purpose of my post with = deference. The fact that in 30 countries,=0A> > including=0A> > > those vis= ited in South and Central America, six of the 30 in which I=0A> have=0A> > = > lived and worked, aged 39, today in China, not anyone has ever called=0A>= me=0A> > a=0A> > > USAmerican does not displease me - esp given the Wester= n hemisphere was=0A> > > merely a playground for colonialism during the cre= ation of the US and=0A> the=0A> > > nation state. I don't mind being called= something else, certainly -=0A> Yank=0A> > > works...Kiwi, too, but then i= t has already been taken, and so has=0A> > Canadian.=0A> > >=0A> > > It see= ms disturbing, getting back to my point, that three things have=0A> > been= =0A> > > missed among the remarks made:=0A> > >=0A> > > 1- Obododimm's rema= rk informs and doesn't warrant such attacks (Hey,=0A> how=0A> > > about we = call those in the US warmongers, jesus freaks, Frankenstinian,=0A> > > know= -it-alls with no capacit to control their arrogance, spiritually=0A> > > fa= t...because it seems true, at least in most superficial way. Then,=0A> too,= =0A> > we=0A> > > could make some nasty generalizations related to white fo= lks about they=0A> > tend=0A> > > to think they have the right to talk for = or talk down to...as in their=0A> > > minority hands they actually hold the= keys to the proverbial kingdom)=0A> > >=0A> > > and=0A> > >=0A> > > 2- Tha= t David could have written that e-mail (and I have known him for=0A> > more= =0A> > > than 15 years). Now, David has yet to respond to this list.=0A> > = >=0A> > > lastly=0A> > >=0A> > > 3- By being so parochial, you are basicall= y shaping discourse to meet=0A> > your=0A> > > own needs, not that of a gre= ater literary community that extends=0A> outside.=0A> > > Too, we don't alw= ays know what we need.=0A> > >=0A> > > Best,=0A> > > Alex=0A> > >=0A> > >= =0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > > --- On *Sun, 11/16/08, Ryan Daley * wrote:=0A> > >=0A> > > From: Ryan Daley =0A> > > Su= bject: Re: David - in reponse to both Bowering & Obododimm=0A> > > To: stor= agebag001@yahoo.com=0A> > > Cc: POETICS@listserv.buffalo.edu=0A> > > Date: = Sunday, November 16, 2008, 5:23 AM=0A> > >=0A> > > So..with all the "harpin= g," which "harping" is preferred, the harping=0A> > > support or harping co= ndemnation of the term?=0A> > >=0A> > > On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 8:42 PM, Al= exander Jorgensen <=0A> > > storagebag001@yahoo.com> wrote:=0A> > >=0A> > >= > I wanna say that a certain level of parochialism comes out in these=0A> m= ost=0A> > >> recent responses to Obododimma's reply. Just think about what = this=0A> first=0A> > >> term means for a second.=0A> > >>=0A> > >> Next, I = wanna say that given George's almost fetishizing of the=0A> > expression=0A= > > >> "USAmerican," I'm more than bit surprised at both his reaction and= =0A> tone,=0A> > and=0A> > >> most certainly because he has almost demanded= that we take note of his=0A> > own=0A> > >> sensitivitiy (as, apparently, = an other).=0A> > >>=0A> > >> While I do not think it my responsibility to b= e overly concerned about=0A> > >> anyone's sensitivities, certainly any mor= e than to presuppose the=0A> > >> credibility/reliability of narrative, I d= o, however, think it=0A> important=0A> > to=0A> > >> listen. Without engagi= ng in one-up-manship, I have NEVER been called=0A> > >> anything but an Ame= rican in my extensive travels (which is to say, at=0A> > least=0A> > >> pri= vately, I think these folks pushing this expression are harping on=0A> a=0A= > > >> non-issue. Can I say: "harping"). But, and this is my point, I have= =0A> > managed=0A> > >> to listen.=0A> > >>=0A> > >> Alex=0A> > >>=0A> > >>= =0A> > >>=0A> > >>=0A> > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > >> The Poet= ics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> > >> guideline= s & sub/unsub info:=0A> > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> >= >>=0A> > >>=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> >=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> >= The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guide= lines=0A> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html= =0A> >=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> --=0A> Obododimma Oha=0A> Senior Lecturer in Stylist= ics & Semiotics=0A> Dept. of English=0A> University of Ibadan=0A> Nigeria= =0A>=0A> &=0A>=0A> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies=0A> Universi= ty of Ibadan=0A>=0A> Phone: +234 803 333 1330;=0A> +234 805 350 6= 604.=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderate= d & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http:= //epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guideli= nes & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A= =0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 00:50:28 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Hennessey Subject: PennSound Launches a New Louis Zukofsky Page MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Today, we're extremely proud to announce PennSound's newest addition: an extensive author page for the highly-influential American Objectivist, Louis Zukofsky (http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Zukofsky.html). Nearly six months in the making, this page brings together nearly twenty full-length recordings by the poet, including important readings, conversations and lectures, along with supplementary materials responding to Zukofsky's work. The earliest of the seventeen readings contained in our Zukofsky archives is a 1954 appearance on Berkeley's KPFA Radio, which includes a number of excerpts from 1946's *Anew*, as well as *"A"*-11 and the second half of *"A" *-9. Selections from *Anew* and 1941's *55 Poems* comprise much of the setlist from his 1958 reading at the Poetry Center at the San Francisco State University, as well as a historic 80-minute homemade tape for the Library of Congress, recorded in November 1960, which also features lengthy samplings from *Some Time*, *Songs of Degrees*, *Catullus* and *Barely and Widely*. Another homemade tape from the following year includes *Catullus*1-46 (save 18 & 19). Other historic recordings include a 1961 reading at Les Deux Megots (precursor to the St. Mark's Poetry Project), recorded by reading organizer Paul Blackburn and broadcast on WBAI-FM; a two-hour 1962 session at New York City's A&R Recording Company, which includes a broad survey of his work from *"A,"* *After I's*, *Catullus*, *Some Time*, *Barely and Widely*, *Anew* and *55 Poems*; a 1971 recording of *Autobiography* taken from Lincoln Center; 1972 readings at Temple University, Glassboro State College and Bard College; and a 1975 recording by Hugh Kenner of a reading at Johns Hopkins University featuring selections from *"A"* and *80 Flowers*, plus "A Foin Lass Bodders," Zukofsky's Brooklynese rendering of Cavalcanti's "Donna Me Prega." In addition to these recordings, you'll also find a 1961 conversation between Zukofsky and Robert Creeley, a 1971 lecture on Wallace Stevens at the University of Connecticut and a handful of broadcast appearances. These resources are augmented by a number of recordings of contemporary poets performing and interpreting Zukofsky's work, including Charles Bernstein's take on "A Foin Lass Bodders," Guy Davenport's comparisons of Zukofsky's * Catullus* poems and the original Latin texts, and a pair of marvelous performances of *"A"-24*, recorded in the Bay Area in 1978, which feature Steve Benson, Carla Harryman, Lyn Hejinian, Kit Robinson and Bob Perelman (on piano). There are also links to videos from 2004's Zukofsky Centennial Conference at Columbia University & Barnard College, featuring Perelman, Creeley, Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Norman Finkelstein and Mark Scroggins, among others. Those interested in further Objectivist listening will also want to check out PennSound's author pages for Charles Reznikoff and Carl Rakosi. PennSound is immeasurably grateful to Paul Zukofsky for his gracious permission to share these many recordings of his father's work with a worldwide audience. Archives such as this do not materialize overnight, and so we'd like to thank Danny Snelson, our Zukofsky page editor for his tireless efforts. Peter Quartermain, Mark Scroggins and Ron Silliman also deserve thanks for both editorial input and access to recordings from their collections. Richard Sieburth and Jeff Twitchell-Waas also provided helpful feedback on the collection, and Mollie Braverman, Kareem Estefan and Jenny Lesser spent countless hours digitizing and editing recordings. It's our sincere hope that this Zukofsky page will be an indispensable resource for fans and scholars of the poet, and an avenue for those not familiar with his work to begin their acquaintance. Follow this link to start listening: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Zukofsky.html -- Michael S. Hennessey Managing Editor, PennSound http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 23:53:09 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does n= =0A=0A Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does n= ot change, or should not be allowed to change. People who live in different= times have different tastes and different responses. One would simply be a= nachronistic and socially unacceptable if one, for instance, continues usin= g the term "policeman" (instead of "police officer"), "air hostess" (instea= d of "flight attendant" or "cabin crew") or "poetess" (instead of simply "p= oet"). I am surprised that you think that filtering out words processed as = offensive in a given period is a waste of time. Perhaps you are also saying= that it is wrong for POETICS to rule that it does not and would not publis= h flame messages. Perhaps some of us can now dispense with communicative co= mpetence and facework. Little wonder some wars in the world start from reck= lessness in the use of words.=0A--- Obododimma Oha.=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__= ______________________________=0AFrom: Mark Weiss = =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:04= :10 PM=0ASubject: Re: David=0A=0ABarry:=0A=0ADon't let the legions of the p= olitically hyper-correct get to you. This discussion is profoundly silly. A= ll sorts of things in every language are ascribed to one nationality or ano= ther and become dictionary-sanctified for reasons often lost in time. The S= panish Influenza didn't originate in Spain, nor the Hong Kong version in Ho= ng Kong, and the tourism industry thrives in both places. I doubt that the = French lose much sleep over "french letter" as a term for a male birth cont= rol device that helps prevent the french disease, though the terms certainl= y go back to an English view of the French as licentious--a stone I think n= obody has thrown since at least the Profumo scandal. For Spanish speakers l= a carisia francesa is cunnilingus, and in English we french kiss and there'= s also greek love, though the practices are pretty universal. I have no ide= a if the parasite that's killing off American elm trees really originated i= n the Netherlands, but it's still the Dutch Elm Disease. Japanese knotweed, another parasite, grows all over Chi= na and Korea. Jew's harp is apparently a corruption of jaws harp--maybe sha= rks should be miffed (they always seem to be miffed). Language, thank god, = is a repository of history. Cleansing it of anything that anyone might find= offensive would also cleanse it of much of the cultural data it stores.=0A= =0AMark=0A=0AAt 05:42 AM 11/16/2008, Barry Schwabsky wrote:=0A> I have to s= ay that, finally, I feel physically ill from the feeling of having been imp= licitly accused of holding and fomenting a vile prejudice. There has been t= alk of language as a loaded weapon and of people feeling stabbed by how the= y are characterized. Well, I feel like I am on the receiving end of those t= hings. I don't to get into a contest of sensitivities but=C2 it is very dif= ficult for me to see how I can participate in a group where I feel that suc= h views are being held of me so I think I have to withdraw, at least for no= w.=0A> =0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated &= does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.b= uffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Po= etics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub= /unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:43:08 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Susan Schultz Subject: Charlotte's Way by Norman Fischer and a holiday special from Tinfish Press. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Charlotte's Way by Norman Fischer and a holiday special from Tinfish Press.= =0A=0A=0ATinfish Press is proud to announce publication of Norman Fischer's= long poem, Charlotte's Way. Please see our website for details of this exq= uisitely designed and produced accordion chapbook:=0A=0Ahttp://tinfishpress= ..com/chapbooks.html=0A=0AThe chap is available from our website and (in a b= it) from Small Press Distribution for $12.=0AOr send a check to Tinfish Pre= ss at 47/728 Hui Kelu Street #9, Kaneohe, HI 96744.=0A=0A=0ATinfish Press a= lso announces a holiday special. Get beautiful books as gifts and take adva= ntage of our end of the year discount. Or save them for yourselves! This ye= ar we have published four full-length books, one journal issue, and the new= chapbook. Retail price for all items is $84. Send us $60, plus a modest co= ntribution for shipping ($5) and they're all yours! (We recently lost our f= ranking privileges from the University of Hawai`i=97due to the economy=97so= now we're hustling for postage, too.)=0A=0AThe items you'll receive are:= =0A=0AMeg Withers, A Communion of Saints=0AHazel Smith, The Erotics of Geog= raphy=0ACraig Santos Perez, from Unincorporated Territory=0ATinfish 18.5: T= he Book: Puzzles and Word Games=0ATinfish 18: The Journal=0ANorman Fischer,= Charlotte's Way=0A=0ASee our website for more information:=0A=0Ahttp://tin= fishpress.com=0A=0AThis special offer ends January 1, 2009.=0A=0AThank you = for supporting small press poetry publishing. Enjoy year's end and the begi= nning of the Obama era.=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:54:45 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve Tills Subject: All the good and decent hullabaloo about D. Baptiste-Chirot's misadventures in cyberspace and elsewhere abroad, er, in a foreign country. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Possibly lost amidst the generous and honorable hullabaloo regarding the recent poetics scam was the very real possibility that a well-regarded friend and comrade might have been in grave danger and needed very real and immediate help. =20 Meanwhile, there developed deep and evolutionary discussion about the correctness of the language used to alert folks to his predicament. =20 What if the predicament had been real, dire, no nonsense? =20 =20 Man, would we all have looked pretty damn stupid or brilliantly sensitive? =20 I think it's astounding what lengths we post-avant, Modern poets will go to protect the state of the art and the purity of our letters even if we must risk the actual life or lives of our comrades in Accomplishment. How far we've come from the rest of the animals on the planet, the lower species that lack the technologies of language and must rely solely on instinct and their bodies to survive. =20 Shoot, I'm speechless. Words cannot express what... Furthermore,=20 =20 =20 Steve Tills =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:01:55 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ethan Hon Subject: Reading TONIGHT in NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello friends, This Wednesday, November 19, at 7:30 pm a cafe in the Lower East Side will be taken over by poets and their kind. Please come join us! Readers: Timothy Donnelly Thomas Hummel Sommer Browning Nancy Kuhl Place: Roots & Vines Cafe, 409 Grand St. at Clinton. Time: 7:30 Day: November 19 http://2nddraftreadingseries.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:03:43 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Ask Not What Small Press Traffic Can Do For You... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Friends of Small Press Traffic, If there is anyone out there who still doubts that Small Press Traffic is a place where all things are possible, who still wonders if the dream of our founders is alive in our time, who still questions the power of the literary community, membership is your answer. Please join or renew your SPT membership today at: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm Memberships are available at the following rates: Students $30.00; Single Membership $40; Friend of SPT $100; Benefactor $500; and Patron $1,000. In this election year marked both by fraught economic times and a fierce spirit of hope, Small Press Traffic is asking once again for your support. In the face of adversity, poets have always banned together and redistributed their great wealth to keep innovation and experimentation alive. YES WE CAN! It may seem difficult to renew 50 members by the end of 2008, but with your help, it can be done. YES WE CAN! The road ahead will be long. Our climb will be steep. We may not get there in one week or even in one month. But, Friends of SPT, we have never been more hopeful than we are just now that we will get there. There are many changes you can count on in the year ahead for Small Press Traffic: SPT has just elected a new leader of its own to guide the organization in innovative directions while continuing to bring together culturally diverse independent readers, writers, and presses. We have an incredible line-up scheduled for the Spring 2009 season. And we have moved into our own new digs on the CCA San Francisco Campus, crossing the aisle of the campus to continue to provide the quality programming you rely on all year long. As a member of Small Press Traffic, you will receive free admission to all of our events, your name will appear on our website and in our nationally circulated fliers, and you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you are doing your part to support innovative literature in the Bay Area and beyond. Please become a member or renew your membership today. The first 50 people to join or renew will receive archival broadsides from our vintage collection. And it's so easy. Just visit http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm and choose the amount you'd like to donate. Please remember that these funds are tax-deductible and provide much needed funds for SPT's new upcoming events, travel funds for writers, ground-breaking symposia, and new equipment. This is our time, to put our poets back to work and open doors of opportunity for our experimental writers and thinkers; to restore prosperity and promote the cause of experimental literature; to reclaim the dream and reaffirm that fundamental truth, that, out of many, we are one; that while we breathe, we hope. And where we are met with cynicism and doubts and those who tell us that we can't, we will respond with that timeless creed that sums up the spirit of a literary community: Yes, we can! Thank you and see you Fridays, The Small Press Traffic Board of Directors Small Press Traffic Board of Directors: President, David Buuck; Treasurer, Brent Cunningham; Secretary, Scott Inguito; Board Members, Chris Chen, Gloria Frym; Barbara Jane Reyes, Cynthia Sailers, Lauren Shufran, and Jessica Wickens ******************************************************* Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center California College of the Arts 1111 -8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415 551-9278 www.sptraffic.org www.smallpresstraffic. blogspot .com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:27:28 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: All the good and decent hullabaloo about D. Baptiste-Chirot's misadventures in cyberspace and elsewhere abroad, er, in a foreign country. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I have to go with you here. However, I think the digression was worth it; at least, once in a while we can test how far we can go in tolerating the views and reactions of other people. It is part of what is called "life skills". It is part of the POETICS of interaction. You know, artists are sometimes so excited with themselves and their ideas that they can't tell when they have erred, or do not care if they have erred. Sometimes we think that, as artists, we cannot say we are sorry (even if we don't mean it), because that would strip us of our beatification as the best group in the world. All our works are about human behaviour, we must not forget. Let my habitation in language not become my prison, my blindfold, my hell. Thanks for the observation. --- Obododimma. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 3:54 PM, Steve Tills wrote: > Possibly lost amidst the generous and honorable hullabaloo regarding the > recent poetics scam was the very real possibility that a well-regarded > friend and comrade might have been in grave danger and needed very real > and immediate help. > > > > Meanwhile, there developed deep and evolutionary discussion about the > correctness of the language used to alert folks to his predicament. > > > > What if the predicament had been real, dire, no nonsense? > > > > Man, would we all have looked pretty damn stupid or brilliantly > sensitive? > > > > I think it's astounding what lengths we post-avant, Modern poets will go > to protect the state of the art and the purity of our letters even if we > must risk the actual life or lives of our comrades in Accomplishment. > How far we've come from the rest of the animals on the planet, the lower > species that lack the technologies of language and must rely solely on > instinct and their bodies to survive. > > > > Shoot, I'm speechless. Words cannot express what... Furthermore, > > > > > > Steve Tills > > > > > > > > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:37:44 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Aaron Lowinger Subject: Elaine Equi & Jerome Sala- BUFFALO NY!!!!!!! Tomorrow!!!!!!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Not To Be Missed! The Post-Punk IntelligenceR Tandem Bike Riders of POEMS!! *JUST BUFFALO SMALL PRESS POETRY SERIES: ELAINE EQUI AND JEROME SALA, 11/2= 0 AT 7:00 P.M. RUST BELT BOOKS 202 ALLEN ST. * ** ** * Equi will be doing a multimedia presentation using movie stills from the 1950s and the '60s in the form of a tarot deck!!?? And as Michael Kelleher says, "Jerome Sala, he's a friggin' riot. I mean c'mon." * ** ** Elaine Equi is the author of more than ten poetry collections, and her latest book, *Ripple Effect: New & Selected Poems*, was a finalist for the L.A. Times Book Award and on the short list for The Griffin Poetry Prize. H= er collection *Voice-Over* won the San Francisco State Poetry Award. Her work is widely anthologized and appears in *Postmodern American Poetry: a Norton Anthology* and in several editions of *The Best American Poetry*. A native of Chicago, Equi lives in New York City, and teaches at New York University and in the MFA programs at The New School and City College. -robin brox Jerome Sala has been described as an "honorable hysteric" by critic Peter Schjeldahl. His latest book is *Look Slimmer Instantly* from Soft Skull Press, and its website explains Sala "was, in fact, one of the first 'World Heavyweight Champions' of poetry [by taking part in performances held in actual boxing rings, predating today's poetry slams]. Additionally, along with poet Elaine Equi, he was connected with a punk poetry scene originatin= g out of L.A., and gathered in Dennis Cooper's anthology of the early 80s: *Coming Attractions*. From these roots, Sala's work continued to develop =96 explor= ing the connections between the pop and the poetic, the high and the low, the ironic and the political =96 all the while maintaining a healthy dadaistic suspicion of all things literary." -robin brox =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:17:31 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Ana_Bo=BEi=E8evi=E6?= Subject: This Friday! Carnahan, Casamassima, Grinnell, Lederer, Oberman, and Rohrer! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline November 21st @ 7 p.m. - Stain Bar - Williamsburg, Brooklyn ** Carnahan, Casamassima, Grinnell, Lederer, Oberman, and Rohrer ** Special Musical Guest @ Intermission: Addenda ~~~ Brooklyn resident Kerry Carnahan has co-authored and edited a number of publications, including the New York City High Performance Infrastructure Guidelines, Cool and Green Roofs, and Sustainable Urban Sites (forthcoming), and is working towards her MFA in poetry from CUNY-Hunter College. ~~~ Christophe Casamassima is the editor and proprietor of furniture_press in Baltimore where he teaches at Towson University. He is also the Literary Arts Director of the Towson Arts Collective. His collections of poetry include the Proteus (Moria, 2008) and Joys: A Catalogue of Disappointments (BlazeVOX, 2008). ~~~ E. TracyGrinnell is the author of Some Clear Souvenir (O Books, 2006) and Music or Forgetting (O Books, 2001), as well as the limited edition chapbooks Leukadia (Trafficker Press, forthcoming 2008), Quadriga, a collaboration with Paul Foster Johnson (gong chapbooks, 2006), Of the Frame (Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs, 2004), and Harmonics (Melodeon Poetry Systems, 2000). She lives in Brooklyn and edits Litmus Press and its annual journal of poetry and translation, Aufgabe. ~~~ Katy Lederer is the author of the poetry collections, Winter Sex (Verse Press, 2002) and The Heaven-Sent Leaf (BOA Editions, forthcoming 2008 ) as well as the memoir Poker Face: A Girlhood Among Gamblers (Crown, 2003), which Publishers Weekly included on its list of the Best Nonfiction Books of 2003 and Esquire Magazine named one of its eight Best Books of the Year 2003. Her poems and prose have appeared in The American Poetry Review, Boston Review, Harvard Review, GQ, and elsewhere. She has been anthologized in Body Electric (Norton), From Poe to the Present: Great American Prose Poems (Scribner), and Isn't It Romantic? (Verse Press), among other compilations. Educated at the University of California at Berkeley and the Iowa Writers' Workshop, she serves as a Poetry Editor of Fence Magazine. Her honors and awards include an Academy of American Poets Prize, fellowships from Yaddo (2001; 2004; 2005), MacDowell (2007), and the New York Foundation for the Arts (2005-2006), and a Discover Great New Writers citation from Barnes & Noble's Discover Great New Writers Program. ~~~ Matthew Rohrer is the author of five books, most recently RISE UP, published by Wave Books. He teaches at NYU in the creative writing program, and lives in Brooklyn. ~~~ Miller Oberman was the 2005 recipient of Poetry Magazine's Ruth Lilly Fellowship and has recently had poems in Bloom Magazine, the Minnesota Review, and Lilith. Miller lives in Brooklyn with Zero Oberman. ~~~~ SPECIAL INTERMISSION GUEST While Addenda is just beginning, there's a history. Dan Sofaer and Christopher Anderson first met when Christopher was the singer in the Washington, D.C. band Nine Men Are Suicides. After being musical director for the recording of the one song the band knew how to play (Sister Ray by the Velvet Underground), Dan went on to be a founding member of the Silence After and Christopher rejoined him in '88 for the short-lived Hurricane Daisy, whose killer demo had Fugazi's Don Zientara for its producer. After years in the wilderness, Dan reemerged as bassist in the San Francisco trio Giant Haystacks, and Christopher posted some Prince covers on MySpace. A chance note from Japan has reunited them, and they're ready to bring the spirit to the letter. You can find their music at myspace.com/addenda ~~~~ stain 766 grand street brooklyn, ny 11211 (L train to Grand Street, 1 block west) 718/387-7840 open daily @ 5 p.m. ~~~~ Hosted by Amy King and Ana Bozicevic http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:37:25 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Nico Vassilakis Subject: Seattle: Reading: Plus: Nov 21st MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MICKEY OCONNOR reading =20 BETH GRACZYK dance =20 ANGELINA BALDOZ trumpet =20 NICO VASSILAKIS reading =20 + + + =20 UNTITLED [INTERSECTION] Friday 21 November 2008=2C 7p at Phinney Neighborhood Center in Greenwood 6532 Phinney Ave. N =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:40:12 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ram Devineni Subject: 6 New FILMS from RATTAPALLAX for 2009: Brazil, Africa, India, USA + MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Friends: I am excited to announce six new films for next year being produced by Rattapallax magazine. Rattapallax Films is committed to producing poetic films and documentaries with a social and cultural dimension to them. To learn more about the production company and its projects, please go to http://www.rattapallax.com/films.htm Cheers Ram Devineni GINSBERG'S KARMA. A documentary about the legendary poet Allen Ginsberg and his mythical journey to India in the early 1960s that transformed his perspective on life and his work. Poet Bob Holman traces the two years Ginsberg spent in India by visiting the places where he stayed and talk with the people he met and influenced, as well as, intimate interviews with Beat poets and friends. http://www.rattapallax.com/ginsberg.htm ON THE GRIOT TRAIL: Bob Holman and Papa Susso in West Africa. The film is about Alhaji Papa Susso, a Gambian folk poet and Bob Holman, a contemporary US poet, who are long-time friends. They travel to Africa to discover the oral traditions of language and storytelling that are quickly disappearing. Through their travels in Gambia, Senegal, Mali and Guinea, they also explore African music and its influence on contemporary American jazz, rock n' roll, and blues and how traditional African music is being displaced by urban hip-hop, whose roots are in Africa. Throughout West Africa, they meet many different Griots, or storytellers, whose vast memories include the history of their tribes and re-tell it through songs and epic poems. Currently Filming in Africa. http://www.rattapallax.com/griot.htm O SONHO BOLLYWOODIANO. Rattapallax Films announces the first Indian-Brazilian co-production. "O Sonho Bollywoodiano" is directed by Beatriz Seigne-Martin and stars Paula Braun, Lorena Lobato and Nataly Galleazzo Cabanas. The production just finished shooting all over India. Legendary Indian filmmaker Santosh Sivan (The Terrorist) is Executive Producer. The film is a comedy about three beautiful Brazilian actresses who decide to try their luck breaking into the Bollywood. When they arrive in India, their dreams change dramatically through a series of mishaps and unexpected occurrences. This heart-felt comedy reveals the wonderful cultural difference between both countries while three young actresses search for their dream in a country thousands of miles away. While filming a song and dance sequence in Mumbai, TV Globo's show Fantastico interviewed the actresses and director. The film will be released next year. http://www.rattapallax.com/bollywoodiano.htm BOLLYWORLD. India is going through extraordinary changes and entering the global market. This documentary focuses on how India's largest film industry "Bollywood" is transforming itself to appeal to a world audience and an emerging Indian middle class. The documentary follows two brothers, Sanjay and Kumar, as they try to make their big movie. We get a glimpse into the many dimensions of Bollywood and the people who make a living entertaining over 3 billion people a year. http://www.rattapallax.com/bollyworld.htm ALIEN ROADKILL. A documentary about African-American poet Lamont B. Steptoe and his search for the aliens who abducted him in Philadelphia. Steptoe is an American Book Award winner and suffering from post-traumatic syndrome resulting from the Vietnam War. In 2008, he taveled to Roswell, New Mexico to the Roswell UFO Festival to find the aliens he encountered and seek spiritual solace at the famed crash site. While at Roswell, he meets other people who were also aducted by aliens and soon discovers that he is not "alone." http://www.rattapallax.com/steptoe2.htm FABULOUS HAIR! This exuberant documentary follows several Philadelphia-based African-American hairdressers as they prepare for a major hair show competition. http://www.rattapallax.com/hair.htm Please send future emails to devineni@rattapallax.com for press ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:41:15 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: All the good and decent hullabaloo about D. Baptiste-Chirot's misadventures in cyberspace and elsewhere abroad, er, in a foreign country. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Steve, I agree with you there. If what goes on on this list were more visible (unfortunately, also more relevant to the wider world!}, we would have been subject to a SNL skit. This discussion about "language" is like describing the color of fire when a house is burning. Here my conscience is clear. I was ready to send "david" three hundred dollars when I leart the whole thing was a scam. Barry, once again, don't take this to heart and think occasional good things which happen here. No one seems to have responded to my query how many among who were insulted by "Nigerian scam" were Nigerians or even Africans. I assume by this that nobody. all this was a verbal exercise. May be we can apply a bit of reality principle here. Ciao, Murat On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Steve Tills wrote: > Possibly lost amidst the generous and honorable hullabaloo regarding the > recent poetics scam was the very real possibility that a well-regarded > friend and comrade might have been in grave danger and needed very real > and immediate help. > > > > Meanwhile, there developed deep and evolutionary discussion about the > correctness of the language used to alert folks to his predicament. > > > > What if the predicament had been real, dire, no nonsense? > > > > Man, would we all have looked pretty damn stupid or brilliantly > sensitive? > > > > I think it's astounding what lengths we post-avant, Modern poets will go > to protect the state of the art and the purity of our letters even if we > must risk the actual life or lives of our comrades in Accomplishment. > How far we've come from the rest of the animals on the planet, the lower > species that lack the technologies of language and must rely solely on > instinct and their bodies to survive. > > > > Shoot, I'm speechless. Words cannot express what... Furthermore, > > > > > > Steve Tills > > > > > > > > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:47:16 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <831293.643.qm@web54401.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Certainly ithere's a fine line between changing language and have a committee dictate which language is ok for "consumption." I think filtering out words isn't a waste of time. It's pretty constabulary= , though. On 11/18/08, Obododimma Oha wrote: > > Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does n > > > Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does not > change, or should not be allowed to change. People who live in different > times have different tastes and different responses. One would simply be > anachronistic and socially unacceptable if one, for instance, continues > using the term "policeman" (instead of "police officer"), "air hostess" > (instead of "flight attendant" or "cabin crew") or "poetess" (instead of > simply "poet"). I am surprised that you think that filtering out words > processed as offensive in a given period is a waste of time. Perhaps you = are > also saying that it is wrong for POETICS to rule that it does not and wou= ld > not publish flame messages. Perhaps some of us can now dispense with > communicative competence and facework. Little wonder some wars in the wor= ld > start from recklessness in the use of words. > --- Obododimma Oha. > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Mark Weiss > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:04:10 PM > Subject: Re: David > > Barry: > > Don't let the legions of the politically hyper-correct get to you. This > discussion is profoundly silly. All sorts of things in every language are > ascribed to one nationality or another and become dictionary-sanctified f= or > reasons often lost in time. The Spanish Influenza didn't originate in Spa= in, > nor the Hong Kong version in Hong Kong, and the tourism industry thrives = in > both places. I doubt that the French lose much sleep over "french letter"= as > a term for a male birth control device that helps prevent the french > disease, though the terms certainly go back to an English view of the Fre= nch > as licentious--a stone I think nobody has thrown since at least the Profu= mo > scandal. For Spanish speakers la carisia francesa is cunnilingus, and in > English we french kiss and there's also greek love, though the practices = are > pretty universal. I have no idea if the parasite that's killing off Ameri= can > elm trees really originated in the Netherlands, but it's still the > Dutch Elm Disease. Japanese knotweed, another parasite, grows all over > China and Korea. Jew's harp is apparently a corruption of jaws harp--mayb= e > sharks should be miffed (they always seem to be miffed). Language, thank > god, is a repository of history. Cleansing it of anything that anyone mig= ht > find offensive would also cleanse it of much of the cultural data it stor= es. > > Mark > > At 05:42 AM 11/16/2008, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > I have to say that, finally, I feel physically ill from the feeling of > having been implicitly accused of holding and fomenting a vile prejudice. > There has been talk of language as a loaded weapon and of people feeling > stabbed by how they are characterized. Well, I feel like I am on the > receiving end of those things. I don't to get into a contest of > sensitivities but=C2 it is very difficult for me to see how I can partici= pate > in a group where I feel that such views are being held of me so I think I > have to withdraw, at least for now. > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:06:47 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <831293.643.qm@web54401.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Obododimma, I did not say that, nor did Mark as far as I know. And I think I can speak up for him. Something that makes me chuckle is the English saying: "Excuse my French!" The English, the obstinate enemies of the French, all along history, and vice versa: "Merde aux Anglais!" Not to talk of the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against them all, the Norther Italians against the southern Italians, and the infinite sayings that appear once in a while in = a colloquial form. I / we do respect Derrida and his precious work. What I wish to say is that we cannot cancel history in just a second with good will. I do appreciate your remark, though. This is cheap humor, and anyhow that is what our daily life is made of. Isn't your neighbor your worst enemy? It is the law of instinct, then with reason, as the goodwill of the list has shown up to the point that Barry Schwabsky very probably signed off (and once again I am sorry), with reason you sort things out and start being more careful. I never again used the saying I quoted in my previous mail. It was a lesson for me. I just wanted to show Barry and the list that sometimes you simply do not think, and as I said, you unwillingly trigger a chain of unsolved ethnic conflicts. I hope I was clear. I also thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify what I said before. Anny Ballardini On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does n > > > Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does not > change, or should not be allowed to change. People who live in different > times have different tastes and different responses. One would simply be > anachronistic and socially unacceptable if one, for instance, continues > using the term "policeman" (instead of "police officer"), "air hostess" > (instead of "flight attendant" or "cabin crew") or "poetess" (instead of > simply "poet"). I am surprised that you think that filtering out words > processed as offensive in a given period is a waste of time. Perhaps you = are > also saying that it is wrong for POETICS to rule that it does not and wou= ld > not publish flame messages. Perhaps some of us can now dispense with > communicative competence and facework. Little wonder some wars in the wor= ld > start from recklessness in the use of words. > --- Obododimma Oha. > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Mark Weiss > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:04:10 PM > Subject: Re: David > > Barry: > > Don't let the legions of the politically hyper-correct get to you. This > discussion is profoundly silly. All sorts of things in every language are > ascribed to one nationality or another and become dictionary-sanctified f= or > reasons often lost in time. The Spanish Influenza didn't originate in Spa= in, > nor the Hong Kong version in Hong Kong, and the tourism industry thrives = in > both places. I doubt that the French lose much sleep over "french letter"= as > a term for a male birth control device that helps prevent the french > disease, though the terms certainly go back to an English view of the Fre= nch > as licentious--a stone I think nobody has thrown since at least the Profu= mo > scandal. For Spanish speakers la carisia francesa is cunnilingus, and in > English we french kiss and there's also greek love, though the practices = are > pretty universal. I have no idea if the parasite that's killing off Ameri= can > elm trees really originated in the Netherlands, but it's still the > Dutch Elm Disease. Japanese knotweed, another parasite, grows all over > China and Korea. Jew's harp is apparently a corruption of jaws harp--mayb= e > sharks should be miffed (they always seem to be miffed). Language, thank > god, is a repository of history. Cleansing it of anything that anyone mig= ht > find offensive would also cleanse it of much of the cultural data it stor= es. > > Mark > > At 05:42 AM 11/16/2008, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > I have to say that, finally, I feel physically ill from the feeling of > having been implicitly accused of holding and fomenting a vile prejudice. > There has been talk of language as a loaded weapon and of people feeling > stabbed by how they are characterized. Well, I feel like I am on the > receiving end of those things. I don't to get into a contest of > sensitivities but=C2 it is very difficult for me to see how I can partici= pate > in a group where I feel that such views are being held of me so I think I > have to withdraw, at least for now. > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=20 Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:42:07 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kamen Nedev Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081118213815.071bfe20@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 19/11/2008, at 3:38, Mark Weiss wrote: > German measles, anyone? Aye. Spanish fly. Spanish Flu. Black Death. Yellow Peril. Others seem more innocent, but only just. "Japanese copy". And, nowadays, "Russian" mafia. "Under a Panama flag". Speaking of Spanish, EVERY SINGLE proverb originating from the 14th century is either violently anti-Semitic, or anti-Muslim, or simply racist and sexist. Language is a bit of a battlefield, and there's a lot of inertia there... Kamen http://www.waitingforcargo.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:37:19 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: What we're called, was Re: David In-Reply-To: <831293.643.qm@web54401.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed It's always interesting to be the butt of sarcasm, but accuracy also counts. I was I thought pointing out the large gray areas, and talking about appropriateness (albeit with tongue wandering into cheek at times). I doubt that I've caused too many wars today. But your examples present some interesting issues. Policeman became obsolete as a generic term when women were allowed to join police forces, and other terms that cover both genders, like cops, police, or police officers, took over, because it would have been absurd to do otherwise. But we refer to policemen and policewomen when appropriate--it's not anachronistic to point out a policewoman to someone who needs help, if that's who's available. The word stewardess, which is the term I think you were searching for, became an issue because it had an extraprofessional use as fetish. That survives to an extent, but probably more than the word itself, which dates back to when cabin crews were exclusively female (and exclusively young--there were age discrimination suits about that). Poetess had largely fallen out of fashion by the time modern feminism arrived, relegated to designating only some women poets. And it's a good thing that it died--the attitude expressed by the word had become poisonous. These are all questions of gender, in a language that has become less and less gendered over the past thousand years. It's not something that speakers of more gendered languages worry about too much, because to do something about it would require the restructuring of grammar. Airplane crews are still hotes and hotesses, actors are comedians and comediennes, etc, and the French sun is masculine and the moon feminine, while in German it's the reverse. So the battles are fought elsewhere. In modern English there were so few distinct masculine and feminine forms for human occupations that most of the work of remaking the language would involve the renaming of the beasts--stallion and mare, buck and doe, etc. Don't mistake me--I'm plenty aware of gender issues. I'm talking about the genders of articles, nouns, pronouns and adjectives. A travel article in today's New York Times web edition, "The Proud Indians of Chiapas," has attracted a lot of comments, mostly about the use of the word Indian. Many of the respondents pointed out that in Chiapas, and Latin America in general, the (recently) preferred term is "indigena" (which is both masculine and feminine, by the way). The objection noted to Indian is that it's inaccurate. In Spanish it's worse than that--Indio is often a derogatory term, and India in some places is a synonym for whore. But the article is written for gringos. In the US there's no unanimity among (let's call them) first peoples about what to call themselves. Native American doesn't seem to have caught on, though it appeared to for a while, and members of a lot of tribes prefer to be called American Indians and don't mind that their reservations are generically called Indian reservations. In the country at large Indian is nowhere near as derogatory as Indio or India. It apparently didn't raise eyebrows among the Times staffers. It's not up to me, it's up to the people so designated, who have a long history of persecution by whatever name. Not so the compound noun Nigerian scam. It's hard for me to believe that anyone uses it with derogation of Nigerians in general in mind, and I don't think there's a shred of antiNigerian sentiment in the US, where most people would be hard put to say what a Nigerian is. But ok, what about the name Nigeria--Blackland? Is that an acceptable inheritance from the colonialist past? If this thread continues, it would be nice if it involved discussion rather than verbal violence. The issues are interesting in themselves. Mark At 02:53 AM 11/18/2008, Obododimma Oha wrote: > Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does n >Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does >not change, or should not be allowed to change. People who live in >different times have different tastes and different responses. One >would simply be anachronistic and socially unacceptable if one, for >instance, continues using the term "policeman" (instead of "police >officer"), "air hostess" (instead of "flight attendant" or "cabin >crew") or "poetess" (instead of simply "poet"). I am surprised that >you think that filtering out words processed as offensive in a given >period is a waste of time. Perhaps you are also saying that it is >wrong for POETICS to rule that it does not and would not publish >flame messages. Perhaps some of us can now dispense with >communicative competence and facework. Little wonder some wars in >the world start from recklessness in the use of words. --- >Obododimma Oha. ________________________________ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:26:55 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The Accidental Tourist, FORT!/DA? book available - MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed The Accidental Tourist, Essays on the phenomenology of virtual worlds, with special attention paid to Second Life - Alan Sondheim Book available from FORT!/DA? http://www.pd.org/~zeug/fort-da/fort-da.html THE ACCIDENTAL ARTIST was an ongoing exhibition in Second Life at Odyssey, June 2008 - January 2009, by Alan Sondheim, with help from Sugar Seville, Azure Carter, Gary Nanes, Sandy Baldwin, and Frances van Scoy at the Virtual Environments Laboratory, West Virginia University, Morgantown, West Virginia. The show changed daily and the gave me an opportunity to study the phenomenology of a virtual world in relation to avatar-human objectivity. "I think of this as a form of information implosion where everything gets out of hand, or a war or sex zone where it's impossible to walk or think, or Pliny's uncle's death (and other devastation) when Vesuvius blew: What does one do in such a situation? How does one do it? One false step or click and you're underwater or in the skysphere ..." from back cover, Alan Sondheim The book contains all of the critical writings I've done on Second Life, modified into a single sectioned text. Thanks so much for possibly ordering! (If not, thanks for reading this far!) ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:13:18 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: Call for Papers: Beat Studies at the American Literature Association Conference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all--I'm forwarding this from Tim Hunt (tahunt@ilstu.edu) . . . The Beat Studies Association invites proposals for papers on all aspects of Beat literature and Beat studies for the two panels the association anticipates sponsoring at this year's American Literature Association Conference (May 21-24 in Boston). Proposals of one to two pages (250-500 words) should be sent electronically to Tim Hunt at tahunt@ilstu.edu by January 2, 2009. The Beat Studies Association would especially welcome proposals that engage understudied figures central to or related to the Beats and proposals that consider the significance of current and emerging critical paradigms for study of the Beats. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:46:48 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Dale Smith Subject: Big Bridge Call for Submissions--Slow Poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" BIG BRIDGE (HTTP://BIGBRIDGE.ORG) CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS The online poetry journal Big Bridge seeks essays, poems, visual art, performance documentation, eco-criticism, creative writing pedagogy, and other material that addresses or explores issues generated by conversations initiated last summer over Slow Poetry. Arguments, moreover, that offer critical perspectives on Slow Poetry are welcome. Since Slow Poetry is strictly a descriptive platform, feel free to contribute new ideas, arguments, and issues that may be useful for the ongoing development of a slow poetics. Some critical reflections on Slow Poetry are available at http://possumego.blogspot.com. Send work that explores definitions, theories, and practices of Slow Poetry to Big Bridge contributing editor Dale Smith (dmsmith@mail.utexas.edu) in word or pdf files by December 31, 2008. Dale -- Dale Smith Doctoral Student, Department of English University of Texas 1 University Station, B5000 Austin, TX 78712 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:30:57 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Lisa Janssen Subject: MoonLit issue #3 out now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The 2008 issue of Moonlit is now available. Issue three contains more writers and writing than ever before, including Ruth Lilly award winner Kathleen Rooney, Arda Collins (recently published in the New Yorker), critically acclaimed poet and Howling Hex member Philip Jenks, Chicago Review poetry editor Leila Wilson, John Fahey editor (and Smog poster model) Damian Rogers, Kathleen Ossip, Michael Salinger, Mark Ducharme, Philip Metres, Adam Golaski, Alan Jude Moore, Amanda Ackerman, Brandi Homan, Chuck Stebleton, Daniela Olszeweska, Darrin Daniel, Elisa Gabbert, Erik Johnson, Harold Abramowitz, Jessica Bozek, Kate Schapira, Matthew Timmons, Melissa Severin, Simone Muench, Robert Miltner, Ryan Davis, Sarah Rosenthal and Toshia Matthews. Moonlit's a poetry journal for all the young poets out there - and some of the older ones too, of course. Order from www.dragcity.com from the home page click on "catalog" then "book nook" For stores and store pricing email sales@dragcity.com Happy days, Lisa ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:17:20 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Daniel Godston Subject: Barney Rosset MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The National Book Foundation just gave Barney Rosset a lifetime achievement award for his remarkable contributions to American publishing. If you missed Bob Garfield's interview with Barney Rosset last week, you can download it at: http://www.onthemedia.org/transcripts/2008/11/14/07 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/movies/24obsc.html?ref=books ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:33:01 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Francesco Levato Subject: Re: Raworth in Providence In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable To add to Justin and Maria=B9s comments, we had Tom Raworth at the Poetry Center of Chicago November 12th and it is by far my favorite reading. I highly recommend going to hear him if you have the chance. Francesco Levato Executive Director The Poetry Center of Chicago http://www.poetrycenter.org http://www.francescolevato.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:54:09 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0811181903m8257343p42c2dbea619704c7@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > then one is experiencing the poem as a/in terms of a concept. That is often a strong dimension of conceptual work, isn't it. Chairness of the chair. Bearness of the bear. Though it needn't be the only dimension. And usually isn't. The work can be more sensual or sensorial or typically literary or artistic in some ways or whatever, as well; the conceptual is a dimension, not a be all and end all. Though I suppose it's easy to miss the conceptual dimension so some artists like to focus attention on it by the absence of other dimensions. In a sense, this is a pop approach. Also, as elsewhere in art, pretenders can be quick to exploit opportunities. Conceptual art can sometimes be a term applied to work lacking in all craft and art as though it was punk with brains. Ya OK, I guess, if the brains seems to be there and it's somehow challenging or the concept is interesting or something. Something. It's just easier to pretend to the conceptual than it is to some other types of work where the chops are not so easily fakable. On the other hand, there's nothing like strong conceptual work to change the way we see things in a jolt. > Jim, when you look at oulipo in both its conceptual and procedural > aspects, > procedural limits leading to endless works within those limits, are you > not > saying these two aspects are related? In Oulipo, it seems clear that the conceptual and procedural are strongly related, yes. But in conceptual poetry more generally, they needn't be. ja ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 04:35:25 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: dbCinema so far MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a slidvid show of what I've done with dbCinema so far: http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/slidvid.htm This plays around 20 minutes or so, depending on the speed of your connection and network traffic yadayada. If yer using a PC, press the F11 key to toggle yer browser fullscreen. The bigger yer monitor is, the better this looks. This cycles through all the graphic series I've created with dbCinema so far. There are some slidvid controls up at the top left of the screen. If you mouseover the controls, some text appears that shows you what the control does. The title of each series appears among those controls. The title indicates the sort of images dbCinema used in creating the graphics. For instance, the "Graphic Loven" series is made of pictures downloaded by dbCinema from the Internet via a search for the term "graphic novel". The "Silvia Saint" series is made of pictures downloaded by dbCinema from the Internet via a search for the term "Silvia Saint". dbCinema is a graphic synthesizer I'm writing in Adobe Director. There's info about dbCinema at http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky3/intro . Actually this is info about the kandinsky3 series, but much of it is about dbCinema more generally. There are also video tutorials I've created at http://vispo.com/dbcinema/video/1.htm , http://vispo.com/dbcinema/video/2.htm , and http://vispo.com/dbcinema/video/3 . These are kind of dull though. They're just software tutorials. And they're old. There's a little review of dbCinema from Paris (in French) at http://www.fluctuat.net/blog/10347-Notre-Dame-destructuree . ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:44:06 -0800 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: The dead tell a tale that China doesn't care to hear In-Reply-To: <879617.50120.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I cannot say enough about China, mostly because I have lived here the past = seven years (and in various capacities). What is distressing, and this isn'= t a joke, is that I cannot actually tell you all I know, have seen -- share= with you why it is that china, in my opinion, is as much a Western constru= ction as an actual locale where fact still remains buried or intentionally = obscured. But that is another conversation. URUMQI, China: An exhibit on the first floor of the museum here gives the government's unambiguous take on the history of this border region: "Xinjiang has been an inalienable part of the territory of China," says one prominent=A0sign. =20 But walk upstairs to the second floor, and the ancient corpses on display s= eem to tell a different=A0story. The rest of the story: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/11/19/asia/mummies.php =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:12:11 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: Major Ginsberg Movie in Production Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Weeds star Mary Louise-Parker is gearing up for a new project. Earlier this month, it was announced that she will be part of a new biopic, which will b= e written, directed and produced by Oscar-winning documentarians Rob Epstein and Jeffrey Friedman. The beatnik biopic entitled Howl is based on Allen Ginsberg=B9s epic book-length poem of the same title. The film will commemorate the 50th anniversary of the poem, and will feature animated visualizations of the piece, courtesy of graphic novelist Eric Drooker. Cast members include David Strathairn (Good Night and Good Luck), who will play prosecuting attorney Ralph McIntosh, Alan Alda (The West Wing), who will play Judge Clayton Horn, Jeff Daniels (Traitor), who will play Professor David Kirk, Paul Rudd, who will play Luthor Nichols and Weeds sta= r Mary-Louise Parker who will play prosecution witness Gail Potter. James Franco, who appeared in the Spider-Man films, will be playing Allen Ginsberg. "Fifty years later, Ginsberg's vision is as relevant as the year he wrote it," Friedman told the Hollywood Reporter. "It resonates with issues of free speech, government censorship, militaristic empire building, fear-mongering, sexual conformity and the co-opting of religion." Carter Burwell will be writing the original score while Epstein and Friedman, who previously worked together on the Oscar-winning Common Threads: Stories from the Quilt, will be co-directing the film. Epstein's other film credits include the Oscar-winning The Times of Harvey Milk. [Gus Van Sant will be producing.] Taken from=20 http://www.buddytv.com/articles/weeds/weeds-actress-joins-james-fran-23169.= a spx =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:17:30 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?= Subject: New work by Johan Meskens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline _______________ I write in praise of the poet Johan Meskens. Based at Ghent in Belgium, Meskens is a motion/action poet, visual poet, & net-artist. I have followed the aleatoric & serialist work of Meskens since 2002, with great interest & appreciation. Much of his work is profoundly original & dynamic, in conception & in execution. Indeed, he is drawn to poetry with a dialectical philosophy of music & noise, cities & landscapes, & silence. Johan Meskens admires the works of Mozart, Beethoven, Adolphe Sax, Jim Morrison, & Albert Einstein. But in his own poetic work, he struggles with contending elements: John Cage or Frank Zappa, Dimitri Shostakovich or Ennio Morricone, Theloneus Monk or Charlie Parker, Pink Floyd or The Doors. To examine the aleatoric & poetic "music," & the "musical" serialism, of Johan Meskens, go to http://www.chromaticspaceandworld.com/ Click anywhere to begin (& do wait for the serial changes)! Peaceful regards, S=E9amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:39:15 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetry Project Subject: FW: Events at The Poetry Project November/December In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable We=B9re having our own very special thanksgiving tomorrow night in the Parish Hall! We hope you=B9re there. Friday, November 21, 10 PM Poets' Potluck III Natives and newcomers alike join the Three Sisters (the harvest; or Diana, Nicole, and Corrine) for a giving of thanks, foods, poetry, music, and autumnal beverages. A two-time staple of last-year's series, the night will again feature performances by many and food by everyone so inclined, including Stacy Szymaszek, who will be grilling turkey burgers in the paris= h hall on the George Foreman and who has already contributed one can of corn to the cause. Grab your canned pumpkin, plastic cool whip containers, and blue-lined notebooks, and pilgrim your way over. Monday, December 1, 8 PM Open Reading Sign-in 7:45 PM. Wednesday, December 3, 8 PM Ed Roberson & Gail Scott Ed Roberson is author of seven books of poetry. His most recent book, City Eclogue, was published spring 2006, Number 23 in the Atelos series. His collection, Voices Cast Out to Talk Us In, was a winner of the Iowa Poetry Prize; his book Atmosphere Condition was a winner of the National Poetry Series and was nominated for the Academy of American Poets=B9 Lenore Marshall Award. He is a recipient of the Lila Wallace Writers=B9 Award and the Poetry Society of America=B9s Shelley Memorial Award. Graduated from the University of Pittsburgh, 1970, where while an undergrad research assistant in Limnology, he traveled across Canada through Alaska, Kodiak and Afognak Islands and later Bermuda with research expeditions. As an expedition membe= r of the Explorer=B9s Club of Pittsburgh, he has climbed mountains in the Peruvian and Ecuadorian Andes. Ed has motorcycled across the U.S. and traveled in West Africa. Retired from Rutgers University, Ed Roberson currently lives in Chicago where he has taught classes and workshops at Columbia College Chicago, been Visiting Artist at Northwestern University, taught in the Poetry and Poetics Program as Visiting Professor at the University of Chicago. He is currently Writer in Residence at Northwestern University in the English Department Creative Writing. His next book, The New Wing of the Labyrinth, is due out from Singing Horse Press the end of 2008. Gail Scott is current recipient of the Quebec Arts Council New York Studio grant. She co-edited Biting The Error with Bob Gluck et al, (Coach House), shortlisted for a Lambda award. Her other books include her novel, My Paris, about a sad diarist in conversation with Gertrude Stein and Walte= r Benjamin in contemporary Paris (Dalkey Archive), the story collection Spare Parts Plus Two (Coach House). The novels Main Brides and Heroine, and the essay collections Spaces Like Stairs and la th=E9orie, un dimanche (with Nicole Brossard et al). Her translation of Michael Delisle=B9s Le D=E9asarroi d= u matelot was shortlisted for the Governor General=B9s award in translation (2001). She is co-founder of the critical journal Spirale (Montr=E9al) and Tessera (new writing by women). She teaches Creative Writing at Universit=E9 de Montr=E9al. Friday, December 5, 10 PM Hey, What=B9s All The Hooplah? Forget the impending breadlines, grab your polka-dotted canvas bindle, bundle up and bustle your way over to hear the tales of times said and gone and the prophetic parables of a new generation of poets, storytellers and musicians. Featuring music and performances by John Houx, Elizabeth Devlin, Frank Hoier, & others T.B.A. Mr. Houx grew up in West coast cattle country and "hoboed" his way to New York in 2007, where he was quickly embraced by the East Village's Antifolk scene and traditional folk music circles. With appearances on radio and television (broadcast and online), John is presently planning his first full-length record and a small European tour. Elizabeth Devlin has traveled the world to invoke influences from scratchy American and French phonographs, combining bitter-sweet, haunting vocals with angelic, cacophonous Autoharp melodies. Her forthcoming full-length album will be released on December 6th, 2008. Frank Hoier is poised at the front of a new wave of modern Americana roots music. Backed by rock'n'roll prodigy siblings, The Weber Brothers, Frank's self released album Lovers & Dollars is set for it's national debut on November 11, 2008. Frank Hoier brings a fresh perspective and a rock'n'roll energy to Folk music. His Guthrie-esque anthem "Jesus Don't Give Tax Breaks To The Rich" has been hailed as "the most perfect protest song written yet this millennium" (PopHeadWound). And coming up at The Bowery Poetry Club: Bill Berkson & Tony Towle Bowery Poetry Club 8 pm Thursday, December 4, 2008 308 Bowery, NYC 10012 =A0|| =A0212.614.0505 betw. Bleecker & Houston F or V to 2nd Ave / 6 to Bleecker St. www.bowerypoetry.com =A0| =A0tix =A0www.ticketweb.com Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:09:40 -0000 Reply-To: Robin Hamilton Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: What we're called, was Re: David In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081119173024.06f47840@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark said: > rather than verbal violence. The issues are interesting in themselves. Indeed, and I don't think this point has been brought up quite explicitly in the history of the term, but we're not looking at just *any {goldbrick ***}scam (like the poor, they will be with us always), but at a particular variety -- the Spanish Prisoner Scam. This shifted locale and terminology not through any resurgence of colonialism, but because that particular variety of con game suddenly became part of the Internet. What baffled me from the start was the mechanism of it -- the appeal to unreflecting greed of the rich West being given the opportunity to benefit from the suffering of the less fortunate parts of the world. [Insert scare quotes as appropriate.] At one stage, before virtually any spam filter could catch it, there was an ambulance-chasing aspect to the business -- the minute a civil war exploded anywhere, suddenly we were solicited by a member of the beaurocracy of the suffering country to make millions by accepting dirty money. Oh, boy, and leave aside the naivity or greed of anyone who fell for this ... Then there was grammatical nature of the texts -- they seem to have been crafted by someone who had a fairly clear idea of what would be expected to be grammatical prejudices of a Western addressee as to the mistakes likely to be made by a second-language African speaker. Ouch!!! But in some ways, this is yesterday's smasgrabord. At the moment, in the UK at least, what's getting past at least my spam filters are specifically crafted appeals to reveal your details as to membership of *very locally English building societies -- Alliance&Leicester, Lloyds, Abbey National -- and as a Scot, I'm tempted to say this illustrates the peculiar blind dumb ignorance of the English, with whom we are forced to share the British Isles. But perhaps there's a USAmerican variety of this that I'm not aware of. (Mind you, no one has yet appealed to me to buy shares in RBS at firesale prices.) And just to put myself on the right side of the geographical and prejudicicial divide of this, only the English could construct a Scotch pie out of a silly sheep ... Robin [There's a peculiar incident, both funny and unlikely, in one of the Edgar Wallace Sanders-of-the-River collections, I think _Bones In London_, in which Mister Commisioner Sanders, accosted by someone who wants to sell him a cheap gold brick, promply drags the con artist to the nearest police station on the assumption that the man is trying to sell him something that had been illicitly mined in the colonial territories. Used to be IDB, now it's called something different, I think, but plus ca change, Haliburton ... Boy, they don't make colonial administrators like they used to in the glory days of the Raj. R. ] ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:24:56 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, Though our points of view are converging, I should also try to clarify the opposite point I am making: when concepual, particularly of the procedural kind, explodes into unmanagable profileration when it becomes actualized. In that way, the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened. "though I suppose it's easy to miss the conceptual dimension so some artists like to focus attention on it by the absence of other dimensions. In a sense, this is a pop approach." Well, pop can be a powerful art form. "Something. It's just easier to pretend to the conceptual than it is to some other types of work where the chops are not so easily fakable." In my recent conversation with Chris Funhouser, he was telling me how hard it was to create some of his "flash"? pieces. They are gorgeous, evocative to watch. on the other hand, it is a blessing that they are hard to actualize. They are a limited number of them. Ciao, Murat On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 3:54 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > then one is experiencing the poem as a/in terms of a concept. >> > > That is often a strong dimension of conceptual work, isn't it. Chairness of > the chair. Bearness of the bear. Though it needn't be the only dimension. > And usually isn't. The work can be more sensual or sensorial or typically > literary or artistic in some ways or whatever, as well; the conceptual is a > dimension, not a be all and end all. Though I suppose it's easy to miss the > conceptual dimension so some artists like to focus attention on it by the > absence of other dimensions. In a sense, this is a pop approach. > > Also, as elsewhere in art, pretenders can be quick to exploit > opportunities. Conceptual art can sometimes be a term applied to work > lacking in all craft and art as though it was punk with brains. Ya OK, I > guess, if the brains seems to be there and it's somehow challenging or the > concept is interesting or something. Something. It's just easier to pretend > to the conceptual than it is to some other types of work where the chops are > not so easily fakable. On the other hand, there's nothing like strong > conceptual work to change the way we see things in a jolt. > > Jim, when you look at oulipo in both its conceptual and procedural >> aspects, >> procedural limits leading to endless works within those limits, are you >> not >> saying these two aspects are related? >> > > In Oulipo, it seems clear that the conceptual and procedural are strongly > related, yes. But in conceptual poetry more generally, they needn't be. > > ja > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:21:53 -0800 Reply-To: ddbowen2000@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Bowen Subject: New American Press Chapbook Contest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii New American Press is pleased to announce its fall/winter chapbook contest. Winner receives $250 and 25 copies. Final judge is Crab Orchard Review editor and award-winning poet Allison Joseph. Deadline is January 1, 2009. To submit, send 20-30 pages of your best writing (poetry or prose) to: New American Press Chapbook Contest 2707 Trenton Way Fort Collins, CO 80526 Please include $12 reading fee and SASE for contest results. The committee reads blind, so restrict your name and other contact information to a separate cover sheet only. For further information, please visit http://www.newamericanpress.com. Best, David Bowen Editor/Publisher newamericanpress@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:15:57 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70811191206sf9dee29t67f1c7ed6d509ede@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Anny,I think the point you made was quite clear: sometimes we may use words that others object to, and, to show that we don't mean any hurt, we apologize. That's a normal practice of redress for perceived face threat in politeness theory. I would (and many scholars working on politeness) even prefer Avoidance Strategy. Well, not everyone would avoid performing face-threatening acts in cross-cultural communications. And we have seen th= e consequences in history. Regards. Obododimma. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 9:06 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Dear Obododimma, > > I did not say that, nor did Mark as far as I know. And I think I can spea= k > up for him. > Something that makes me chuckle is the English saying: "Excuse my French!= " > The English, the obstinate enemies of the French, all along history, and > vice versa: "Merde aux Anglais!" > Not to talk of the Germans against the French, the French against the > Italians, the Italians against them all, the Norther Italians against the > southern Italians, and the infinite sayings that appear once in a while i= n > a > colloquial form. I / we do respect Derrida and his precious work. What I > wish to say is that we cannot cancel history in just a second with good > will. > I do appreciate your remark, though. > > This is cheap humor, and anyhow that is what our daily life is made of. > Isn't your neighbor your worst enemy? It is the law of instinct, then wit= h > reason, as the goodwill of the list has shown up to the point that Barry > Schwabsky very probably signed off (and once again I am sorry), with reas= on > you sort things out and start being more careful. I never again used the > saying I quoted in my previous mail. It was a lesson for me. I just wante= d > to show Barry and the list that sometimes you simply do not think, and as= I > said, you unwillingly trigger a chain of unsolved ethnic conflicts. > > I hope I was clear. I also thank you for giving me the opportunity to > clarify what I said before. > > Anny Ballardini > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Obododimma Oha > wrote: > > > Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does n > > > > > > Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does not > > change, or should not be allowed to change. People who live in differen= t > > times have different tastes and different responses. One would simply b= e > > anachronistic and socially unacceptable if one, for instance, continues > > using the term "policeman" (instead of "police officer"), "air hostess" > > (instead of "flight attendant" or "cabin crew") or "poetess" (instead o= f > > simply "poet"). I am surprised that you think that filtering out words > > processed as offensive in a given period is a waste of time. Perhaps yo= u > are > > also saying that it is wrong for POETICS to rule that it does not and > would > > not publish flame messages. Perhaps some of us can now dispense with > > communicative competence and facework. Little wonder some wars in the > world > > start from recklessness in the use of words. > > --- Obododimma Oha. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Mark Weiss > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:04:10 PM > > Subject: Re: David > > > > Barry: > > > > Don't let the legions of the politically hyper-correct get to you. This > > discussion is profoundly silly. All sorts of things in every language a= re > > ascribed to one nationality or another and become dictionary-sanctified > for > > reasons often lost in time. The Spanish Influenza didn't originate in > Spain, > > nor the Hong Kong version in Hong Kong, and the tourism industry thrive= s > in > > both places. I doubt that the French lose much sleep over "french lette= r" > as > > a term for a male birth control device that helps prevent the french > > disease, though the terms certainly go back to an English view of the > French > > as licentious--a stone I think nobody has thrown since at least the > Profumo > > scandal. For Spanish speakers la carisia francesa is cunnilingus, and i= n > > English we french kiss and there's also greek love, though the practice= s > are > > pretty universal. I have no idea if the parasite that's killing off > American > > elm trees really originated in the Netherlands, but it's still the > > Dutch Elm Disease. Japanese knotweed, another parasite, grows all over > > China and Korea. Jew's harp is apparently a corruption of jaws > harp--maybe > > sharks should be miffed (they always seem to be miffed). Language, than= k > > god, is a repository of history. Cleansing it of anything that anyone > might > > find offensive would also cleanse it of much of the cultural data it > stores. > > > > Mark > > > > At 05:42 AM 11/16/2008, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > > I have to say that, finally, I feel physically ill from the feeling o= f > > having been implicitly accused of holding and fomenting a vile prejudic= e. > > There has been talk of language as a loaded weapon and of people feelin= g > > stabbed by how they are characterized. Well, I feel like I am on the > > receiving end of those things. I don't to get into a contest of > > sensitivities but=C2 it is very difficult for me to see how I can > participate > > in a group where I feel that such views are being held of me so I think= I > > have to withdraw, at least for now. > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.htm= l > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetshome > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=20 Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:17:23 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <79205908-5E56-4F17-84D1-EA77D267C94D@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Certainly, and managing such conflict is imperative.-- Obododimma. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Kamen Nedev wrote: > On 19/11/2008, at 3:38, Mark Weiss wrote: > > German measles, anyone? >> > > Aye. Spanish fly. Spanish Flu. Black Death. Yellow Peril. > > Others seem more innocent, but only just. "Japanese copy". > > And, nowadays, "Russian" mafia. "Under a Panama flag". > > Speaking of Spanish, EVERY SINGLE proverb originating from the 14th century > is either violently anti-Semitic, or anti-Muslim, or simply racist and > sexist. > > Language is a bit of a battlefield, and there's a lot of inertia there... > > Kamen > > http://www.waitingforcargo.net > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:38:32 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: What we're called, was Re: David In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081119173024.06f47840@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well, I guess I have I have made my point in this thread and cannot compel anyone to give that point a second thought. By writing about "some wars starting from recklessness in the use of language", I was not necessarily addressing your analysis, or your use of words. I was simply referring to the orientation of say-it-the-way-you-like-it-don't-care-about-what-anyone-feels. It's good that Anny Ballardini gave an example of a personal experience he had when he used the expression "working as hard as a negro". For him, he didn't mean any prejudice. But someone there saw something else in the analogy and got offended. And what did Ballardini do next?One has to decide for oneself how to manage one's language and situations that unfold from language use in a world where people indeed see language as social semiotic. For me, this is where the thread ends. Regards. Obododimma. On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > It's always interesting to be the butt of sarcasm, but accuracy also > counts. I was I thought pointing out the large gray areas, and talking about > appropriateness (albeit with tongue wandering into cheek at times). I doubt > that I've caused too many wars today. > > But your examples present some interesting issues. Policeman became > obsolete as a generic term when women were allowed to join police forces, > and other terms that cover both genders, like cops, police, or police > officers, took over, because it would have been absurd to do otherwise. But > we refer to policemen and policewomen when appropriate--it's not > anachronistic to point out a policewoman to someone who needs help, if > that's who's available. The word stewardess, which is the term I think you > were searching for, became an issue because it had an extraprofessional use > as fetish. That survives to an extent, but probably more than the word > itself, which dates back to when cabin crews were exclusively female (and > exclusively young--there were age discrimination suits about that). Poetess > had largely fallen out of fashion by the time modern feminism arrived, > relegated to designating only some women poets. And it's a good thing that > it died--the attitude expressed by the word had become poisonous. > > These are all questions of gender, in a language that has become less and > less gendered over the past thousand years. It's not something that speakers > of more gendered languages worry about too much, because to do something > about it would require the restructuring of grammar. Airplane crews are > still hotes and hotesses, actors are comedians and comediennes, etc, and the > French sun is masculine and the moon feminine, while in German it's the > reverse. So the battles are fought elsewhere. In modern English there were > so few distinct masculine and feminine forms for human occupations that most > of the work of remaking the language would involve the renaming of the > beasts--stallion and mare, buck and doe, etc. Don't mistake me--I'm plenty > aware of gender issues. I'm talking about the genders of articles, nouns, > pronouns and adjectives. > > A travel article in today's New York Times web edition, "The Proud Indians > of Chiapas," has attracted a lot of comments, mostly about the use of the > word Indian. Many of the respondents pointed out that in Chiapas, and Latin > America in general, the (recently) preferred term is "indigena" (which is > both masculine and feminine, by the way). The objection noted to Indian is > that it's inaccurate. In Spanish it's worse than that--Indio is often a > derogatory term, and India in some places is a synonym for whore. But the > article is written for gringos. In the US there's no unanimity among (let's > call them) first peoples about what to call themselves. Native American > doesn't seem to have caught on, though it appeared to for a while, and > members of a lot of tribes prefer to be called American Indians and don't > mind that their reservations are generically called Indian reservations. In > the country at large Indian is nowhere near as derogatory as Indio or India. > It apparently didn't raise eyebrows among the Times staffers. > > It's not up to me, it's up to the people so designated, who have a long > history of persecution by whatever name. Not so the compound noun Nigerian > scam. It's hard for me to believe that anyone uses it with derogation of > Nigerians in general in mind, and I don't think there's a shred of > antiNigerian sentiment in the US, where most people would be hard put to say > what a Nigerian is. > > But ok, what about the name Nigeria--Blackland? Is that an acceptable > inheritance from the colonialist past? > > If this thread continues, it would be nice if it involved discussion rather > than verbal violence. The issues are interesting in themselves. > > Mark > > > > > > At 02:53 AM 11/18/2008, Obododimma Oha wrote: > >> Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does n >> Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does not >> change, or should not be allowed to change. People who live in different >> times have different tastes and different responses. One would simply be >> anachronistic and socially unacceptable if one, for instance, continues >> using the term "policeman" (instead of "police officer"), "air hostess" >> (instead of "flight attendant" or "cabin crew") or "poetess" (instead of >> simply "poet"). I am surprised that you think that filtering out words >> processed as offensive in a given period is a waste of time. Perhaps you are >> also saying that it is wrong for POETICS to rule that it does not and would >> not publish flame messages. Perhaps some of us can now dispense with >> communicative competence and facework. Little wonder some wars in the world >> start from recklessness in the use of words. --- Obododimma Oha. >> ________________________________ >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:27:00 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve Tills Subject: Re: All the good and decent hullabaloo about D. Baptiste-Chirot's misadventures in cyberspace and elsewhere abroad, er, in a foreign country MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Obododimma and Murat, =20 Yes, I agree: "However, I think the digression was worth it" (Obododimma) and "good things which happen here" (Murat). =20 Cheers, Mates! I respect you both and all others who responded to the threads. =20 Sincerely, =20 Steve J =20 =20 =20 =20 Steve Tills=20 MIS Dept=20 G.W. Lisk, Co.=20 (315) 462-4309=20 stills@gwlisk.com =20 P Please consider the environment before printing this email - be green, keep it on the screen =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 14:04:43 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <79205908-5E56-4F17-84D1-EA77D267C94D@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Of note...adjectives aren't the only offending parties for our NEWSPEAK: "Call a spade a spade" "Rule of Thumb" http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/rule-of-thumb.html "The whole nine yards" (reference to pilot's strafing runs...advocating violence?) On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Kamen Nedev wrote: > On 19/11/2008, at 3:38, Mark Weiss wrote: > > German measles, anyone? >> > > Aye. Spanish fly. Spanish Flu. Black Death. Yellow Peril. > > Others seem more innocent, but only just. "Japanese copy". > > And, nowadays, "Russian" mafia. "Under a Panama flag". > > Speaking of Spanish, EVERY SINGLE proverb originating from the 14th century > is either violently anti-Semitic, or anti-Muslim, or simply racist and > sexist. > > Language is a bit of a battlefield, and there's a lot of inertia there... > > Kamen > > http://www.waitingforcargo.net > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:42:10 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: David MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii No one expected a sort of Spanish Inquisition. TADA! Paul E. Nelson Global Voices Radio SPLAB! American Sentences Organic Poetry Poetry Postcard Blog Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 ________________________________ From: Ryan Daley To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 11:04:43 AM Subject: Re: David Of note...adjectives aren't the only offending parties for our NEWSPEAK: "Call a spade a spade" "Rule of Thumb" http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/rule-of-thumb.html "The whole nine yards" (reference to pilot's strafing runs...advocating violence?) On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Kamen Nedev wrote: > On 19/11/2008, at 3:38, Mark Weiss wrote: > > German measles, anyone? >> > > Aye. Spanish fly. Spanish Flu. Black Death. Yellow Peril. > > Others seem more innocent, but only just. "Japanese copy". > > And, nowadays, "Russian" mafia. "Under a Panama flag". > > Speaking of Spanish, EVERY SINGLE proverb originating from the 14th century > is either violently anti-Semitic, or anti-Muslim, or simply racist and > sexist. > > Language is a bit of a battlefield, and there's a lot of inertia there... > > Kamen > > http://www.waitingforcargo.net > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:51:12 -0800 Reply-To: alexdickow9@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Dickow Subject: A. Dickow reading in Paris, France MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alexander Dickow will read selections from _Caramboles_ and other poems in = French and English at 7:30pm Wednesday, November 26th, 2008 at the Ecole Normale Superieure in Paris=20 (metro Cluny la Sorbonne or Maubert Mutualite) 45 rue d'Ulm, in the Salle des Actes concert hall. Come join me, friends, readers, strangers!=20 Books and refreshments will be available.=20 *** Alexander Dickow lira des selections de son livre _Caramboles_ et d'autres = poemes en anglais et en francais a 19h30 le mercredi, 26 novembre 2008 a l'Ecole Normale Superieure a Paris (metro Cluny la Sorbonne or Maubert Mutualite) 45 rue d'Ulm, en Salle des Actes. Entree libre. Amis, lecteurs, inconnus, venez nombreux! www.alexdickow.net/blog/ =A0 les mots! ah quel d=E9sert =E0 la fin merve= illeux. -- Henri Droguet =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:44:57 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0811201724n4d34fdd7ke79c0d1a63439d2c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Though our points of view are converging, I should also try to clarify the > opposite point I am making: when concepual, particularly of the procedural > kind, explodes into unmanagable profileration when it becomes actualized. > In > that way, the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened. the procedural doesn't necessarily involve the sort of proliferation you mention, of course. for instance, http://vispo.com/StirFryTexts/spastext.html or http://vispo.com/arteroids the generative, on the other hand, is more often associated with proliferation. not always, though. 'generative art' is a whole field. dbCinema is generative. you say "the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened" via proliferation. sometimes. but sometimes proliferation is part of the concept. the work of art in the age of mechanical reproduction. proliferation. spamification. that still doesn't tell us whether it's interesting or not. there just are no recipes for interesting art. no algorithms that will do it every time. some algorithms that will do it from time to time. but not all the time. like there is no algorithm that will always be able to tell if any given program will halt. > "though I suppose it's easy to miss the conceptual dimension so some > artists > like to focus attention on it by the absence of other dimensions. In a > sense, this is a pop approach." > > Well, pop can be a powerful art form. sure. > "Something. It's just easier to pretend to the conceptual than it is to > some > other types of work where the chops are not so easily fakable." > > In my recent conversation with Chris Funhouser, he was telling me how hard > it was to create some of his "flash"? pieces. They are gorgeous, evocative > to watch. on the other hand, it is a blessing that they are hard to > actualize. They are a limited number of them. true. ja ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:17:59 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: David Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Re the other two phrases, from phrases.org.uk, which everyone should bookmark, along with http://www.etymonline.com/. Here's the latter on "spade." spade (1) "tool for digging," O.E. spadu, from P.Gmc. *spadon (cf. O.Fris. spada, M.Du. spade, O.S. spado, M.L.G. spade, Ger. Spaten), from PIE *spe- "long, flat piece of wood" (cf. Gk. spathe "wooden blade, paddle," O.E. spon "chip of wood, splinter," O.N. spann "shingle, chip"). To call a spade a spade "use blunt language" (1542) translates a Gk. proverb (known to the Romans), but Erasmus mistook Gk. skaphe "trough, bowl" for a derivative of the stem of skaptein "to dig," and the mistake has stuck. The original, then, is "to call a bowl a bowl." spade (2) "figure on playing cards," 1598, probably from It. spade, pl. of spada "sword, spade," from L. spatha "broad, flat weapon or tool," from Gk. spathe "broad blade" (see spade (1)). Phrase in spades "in abundance" first recorded 1929 (Damon Runyon), probably from bridge, where spades are the highest-ranking suit. "The invitations to the musicale came sliding in by pairs and threes and spade flushes." [O.Henry, "Cabbages & Kings," 1904] Derogatory meaning "black person" is 1928, from the color of the playing card symbol. At 02:04 PM 11/21/2008, you wrote: >Of note...adjectives aren't the only offending parties for our NEWSPEAK: > >"Call a spade a spade" http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/call-a-spade-a-spade.html >"Rule of Thumb" http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/rule-of-thumb.html > >"The whole nine yards" (reference to pilot's strafing runs...advocating http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-whole-nine-yards.html >violence?) > > > > > >On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Kamen Nedev wrote: > > > On 19/11/2008, at 3:38, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > German measles, anyone? > >> > > > > Aye. Spanish fly. Spanish Flu. Black Death. Yellow Peril. > > > > Others seem more innocent, but only just. "Japanese copy". > > > > And, nowadays, "Russian" mafia. "Under a Panama flag". > > > > Speaking of Spanish, EVERY SINGLE proverb originating from the 14th century > > is either violently anti-Semitic, or anti-Muslim, or simply racist and > > sexist. > > > > Language is a bit of a battlefield, and there's a lot of inertia there... > > > > Kamen > > > > http://www.waitingforcargo.net > > > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:09:42 -0800 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: David/'Nigerian scam', Gyped! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not to retread abused tires, but my sense is that the re-use of "Nigerian s= cam" re-enforces a unilateral sense that it is 'native ' condition of all N= igerians to try and trick us out of our money. (Mark is quite right that on= ly a small percentage of Americans have any other concept of Nigeria and/or= Nigerians. Why is maybe a question that be addressed - but I suspect its h= as something to with this country's post-colonial practices (petroleum inte= rests, etc) in Nigeria. (What you are not allowed to know will not bother y= ou!) What ruffles is the way "Nigerian scam" may be similar to the way people us= ed to glibly talk about getting 'gyped' '=A0 -=A0 "Gyping" being the assume= d 'native' characteristic" of people born as Gypsies, the outstanding trait= of whom is to show up and trick upstanding people ("us") out of our money.= =A0=A0=A0 It must of been those terribly sensitive, politically correct, la= nguage police that drove 'gyp ' out of common, civilized usage.=A0=A0 Come = on 'kids', no amount of historicizing is going to put the lid back on the i= ssue here. I do believe it was Obododimma - a Nigeria - who put up his irri= tation with the 'scam' tag (??) .=A0=A0=A0=A0 But maybe in raising the ques= tion he was just 'scamming' us and playing with our liberal sensitivities. Maybe ask a local Nigerian in your community what they think of the 'scam' = term.=A0=20 Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ --- On Fri, 11/21/08, Obododimma Oha wrote: From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, November 21, 2008, 1:15 AM Dear Anny,I think the point you made was quite clear: sometimes we may use words that others object to, and, to show that we don't mean any hurt, we apologize. That's a normal practice of redress for perceived face threat in politeness theory. I would (and many scholars working on politeness) even prefer Avoidance Strategy. Well, not everyone would avoid performing face-threatening acts in cross-cultural communications. And we have seen th= e consequences in history. Regards. Obododimma. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 9:06 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Dear Obododimma, > > I did not say that, nor did Mark as far as I know. And I think I can spea= k > up for him. > Something that makes me chuckle is the English saying: "Excuse my French!" > The English, the obstinate enemies of the French, all along history, and > vice versa: "Merde aux Anglais!" > Not to talk of the Germans against the French, the French against the > Italians, the Italians against them all, the Norther Italians against the > southern Italians, and the infinite sayings that appear once in a while i= n > a > colloquial form. I / we do respect Derrida and his precious work. What I > wish to say is that we cannot cancel history in just a second with good > will. > I do appreciate your remark, though. > > This is cheap humor, and anyhow that is what our daily life is made of. > Isn't your neighbor your worst enemy? It is the law of instinct, then with > reason, as the goodwill of the list has shown up to the point that Barry > Schwabsky very probably signed off (and once again I am sorry), with reason > you sort things out and start being more careful. I never again used the > saying I quoted in my previous mail. It was a lesson for me. I just wante= d > to show Barry and the list that sometimes you simply do not think, and as I > said, you unwillingly trigger a chain of unsolved ethnic conflicts. > > I hope I was clear. I also thank you for giving me the opportunity to > clarify what I said before. > > Anny Ballardini > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Obododimma Oha > wrote: > > > Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does n > > > > > > Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does not > > change, or should not be allowed to change. People who live in different > > times have different tastes and different responses. One would simply be > > anachronistic and socially unacceptable if one, for instance, continues > > using the term "policeman" (instead of "police officer"), "air hostess" > > (instead of "flight attendant" or "cabin crew") or "poetess" (instead of > > simply "poet"). I am surprised that you think that filtering out words > > processed as offensive in a given period is a waste of time. Perhaps you > are > > also saying that it is wrong for POETICS to rule that it does not and > would > > not publish flame messages. Perhaps some of us can now dispense with > > communicative competence and facework. Little wonder some wars in the > world > > start from recklessness in the use of words. > > --- Obododimma Oha. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Mark Weiss > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:04:10 PM > > Subject: Re: David > > > > Barry: > > > > Don't let the legions of the politically hyper-correct get to you. This > > discussion is profoundly silly. All sorts of things in every language are > > ascribed to one nationality or another and become dictionary-sanctified > for > > reasons often lost in time. The Spanish Influenza didn't originate in > Spain, > > nor the Hong Kong version in Hong Kong, and the tourism industry thrives > in > > both places. I doubt that the French lose much sleep over "french letter" > as > > a term for a male birth control device that helps prevent the french > > disease, though the terms certainly go back to an English view of the > French > > as licentious--a stone I think nobody has thrown since at least the > Profumo > > scandal. For Spanish speakers la carisia francesa is cunnilingus, and in > > English we french kiss and there's also greek love, though the practices > are > > pretty universal. I have no idea if the parasite that's killing off > American > > elm trees really originated in the Netherlands, but it's still the > > Dutch Elm Disease. Japanese knotweed, another parasite, grows all over > > China and Korea. Jew's harp is apparently a corruption of jaws > harp--maybe > > sharks should be miffed (they always seem to be miffed). Language, thank > > god, is a repository of history. Cleansing it of anything that anyone > might > > find offensive would also cleanse it of much of the cultural data it > stores. > > > > Mark > > > > At 05:42 AM 11/16/2008, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > > I have to say that, finally, I feel physically ill from the feeling of > > having been implicitly accused of holding and fomenting a vile prejudice. > > There has been talk of language as a loaded weapon and of people feeling > > stabbed by how they are characterized. Well, I feel like I am on the > > receiving end of those things. I don't to get into a contest of > > sensitivities but=C2 it is very difficult for me to see how I can > participate > > in a group where I feel that such views are being held of me so I think I > > have to withdraw, at least for now. > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetshome > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=20 Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:34:58 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sara Wintz Subject: :::the press gang::: et :::evan abandoned::: Comments: To: gangster gangster MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hello hello, Please join :::the press gang::: at the *d.a.levy lives/renegade small press night,* on November 25th, sponsored by Boog City! The event will take place at A.C.A Gallery, 529 West 20th Street- 5th fl. @ 6pm, as part of Boog City's d.a.levy lives: celebrating the renegade press series. Cristiana Baik, Evan Kennedy, and [Sara Wintz] will be celebrating the release of vehicular No.1, a new, split-side zine from :::the press gang::: with a reading in which Evan will go electric and read from his new chapbook, "All the Young Dudes," included in this first issue of vehicular. *a sampling, in brief: --- In a Season of Switchblades for Saint Augustine After an awkward phase, our bodies became a pleasure to look at; we got the hint that things were starting to fill out. We joined the Wreckers and received matching coats. We bred a subtle trouble through the school halls. Even a little danger loved was death won. There were the bloody-nosed at the video arcade and haircuts in the bowling alley bathroom. On one wall a portrait of Cabeza de Vaca, another, all the animals he brought. There were Swishers to smoke and showers to get the stink off. The Cineplex was brimming with unheard-of poetries... --- Other participating small presses, on November 25th, include: Farfalla Press (Gary parrish, with performances by Anne Waldman and I Feel Tractor) X-ing Books (Amy Mees, with Jeremy Schmall and Justin Taylor) + Open 24 Hrs. (Greg Fuchs & John Coletti, with Erica Kaufman) and of course, Boog City! (we're on cloud nine)( and hope you'll join us!) see you there! yrs, sara wintz+cristiana baik :::the press gang::: www.pressgangsters.com (*details, details....)----------------> Boog City presents d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press *New York City Small Presses Night * with *Farfalla Press, Open 24 Hours, :::the press gang:::, and X-ing Books * *Tues. Nov. 25, 6:00 p.m. sharp, free * *ACA Galleries *529 W.20th St., 5th Flr. NYC This is our one event each season in our non-NYC small presses series where we honor NYC small presses. Featuring readings from poets from some of the city's finest small presses as well as publications available from each of the presses. ***Farfalla Press/McMillan & Parrish*,* *Gary Parrish, ed. *--I Feel Tractor --Anne Waldman **Open 24 Hours*, John Coletti and Greg Fuchs, eds. *--Erica Kaufman **:::the press gang:::*, Cristiana Baik and Sara Wintz, eds. *--Evan Kennedy **X-ing Books*, Amy Mees, ed. *--Jeremy Schmall --Justin Taylor ** *There will be wine, cheese, and crackers, too. -- Press and author bios ***Farfalla Press/McMillan & Parrish *http://www.farfallapress.blogspot.com * http://www.spdbooks.org/root/pages/serp.asp?Title=&Author=&Subtitle=farfalla+press&ISBN=&submit=Search *Farfalla Press/McMillan & Parrish is an independent small press surfacing from Naropa University's Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics and based in Brooklyn. It puts out perfect-bound books, chapbooks, broadsides, and CD's. Artists include Vanessa Boff, Rob Geisen, Jack Collom, Tom Peters, Gary Parrish, LeAnn Bifoss, Akilah Oliver, Junior Burke, Christopher Ryan, John Sakkis, Peter Lamborn Wilson (Hakim Bey), Bobbie Louise Hawkins, Anne Waldman, Edmund Berrigan, Anselm Berrigan, Marcella Durand, Jessica Fiorini, Jessica Rogers, Lee Ranaldo, Corrine Fitzpatrick, Stefania Iryne Marthakis, Brenda Coultas, Simon Pettet, John Coletti, Dustin Williamson, Lewis Warsh, Kristin Prevallet, Stacy Szymaszek, John High, Nathaniel A. Siegel, Arlo Quint, Chris Martin, Tyler Burba, George Schneeman, Shappy Seasholtz, Bob Holman, Bernadette Mayer, Reed Bye, Ambrose Bye. *I Feel Tractor *http://www.myspace.com/ifeeltractor http://www.goodbyebetter.com/ * I Feel Tractor is available to you with musings of space folk and cut ups. I Feel Tractor has a self-titled 7" from the Loudmouth Collective, and a CD, Once I Had an Earthquake, from Goodbye Better. *Anne Waldman *http://www.naropa.edu/swp/faculty/a_waldman.cfm http://almostisland.com/poetry/WALDMAN2.html * Anne Waldman, poet, professor, performer, curator, and cultural activist, is the author of over 40 books and small press editions of poetry and poetics, including Fast Speaking Woman, the IOVIS project, Vow to Poetry: Essays, Interviews and Manifestos, Marriage: A Sentence, In the Room of Never Grieve, Structure of the World Compared to a Bubble, Outrider, and Nine Nights Meditation (with artist Donna Dennis). She is the editor of numerous anthologies, including The Beat Book, and co-editor of Disembodied Poetics: Annals of the Jack Kerouac School, The Angel Hair Anthology, and Civil Disobediences: Poetics and Politics in Action (with Lisa Birman). Her CDs include Alchemical Elegy, Battery: Live at Naropa, The Eye of the Falcon, and The Matching Half (the last two with music and production by Ambrose Bye). She is a recipient of the Shelley Memorial Award and has had residences at the Civitella Ranieri Center, the Tokyo Woman's Christian University, the Emily Harvey Foundation in Venice, and the Bellagio Center. She has performed her work on stages across the American continent and abroad. Recent conferences and festivals have taken her to Wuhan (China), Berlin, Vienna and Dublin. She works with writer and director Ed Bowes on a number of video/movie projects. ***Open 24 Hours * Open 24 Hours is dedicated to publishing limited edition books by poets working in traditions rooted in experimentation and social engagement. The Open 24 Hours design is influenced by the staple-bound mimeo revolution of the American small press underground most visibly recognized in the books published by many 2nd- and 3rd-generation New York School Poets. We have simply adapted the method to digital technology. Open 24 Hours has published books by Mariana Ruiz Firmat, Corina Copp, Betsy Fagin, Joel Dailey, Chris Toll, Steve Carey, Arlo Quint, Erica Kaufman, and Dustin Williamson. Forthcoming are books by David Kirschenbaum and Will Yakulic. Open 24 Hours is based in New York City, edited and designed by John Coletti and Greg Fuchs. Jon Allen is our in-house illustrator. We took the name from D.C. poet Buck Downs, who published a poetry zine by the same name. Downs inherited Open 24 Hours from Baltimore poet Chris Toll, who started it in 1980. You can reach them at *greg@gregfuchs.com* or *acoldgobot@hotmail.com*. *Erica Kaufman http://ericajane0808.googlepages.com/ Erica Kaufman is the author of several chapbooks, most recently *censory impulse* (an excerpt of her long poem of the same title) (OMG), *civilization day* (Open24Hours), and *censory impulse* (another excerpt of her long poem of the same title) (Big Game Books). Kaufman holds an MFA from the New School and was the winner of the 2003 New School University Chapbook Contest. Her poems can be found in *Puppyflowers*, *Painted Bride Quarterly *, *Bombay Gin*, *The Mississippi Review*, *Unpleasant Event Schedule*, *the tiny*, *Turntable + Blue Light*, *26*,*Aufgabe*, and *LIT*, among other places. Essays and reviews can be found in *The Poetry Project Newsletter* , *CutBank*, *Rain Taxi*, *Verse*, and elsewhere. Kaufman is currently a Ph.D. candidate at the CUNY Graduate Center. She lives in Brooklyn and works in Manhattan and teaches at Baruch College. ***:::the press gang::: **http://www.pressgangsters.com * :::the press gang::: is a small press, co-directed by cristiana baik and sara wintz, publishing younger avant writers. * **Evan Kennedy *http://www.bookthug.ca/proddetail.php?prod=2424&cat=1 * Evan Kennedy is the author of The Cheer-Up Book of Wounded Soldiers (Dirty Swan Projects) and Us Them Poems (BookThug). His work has appeared in "Tight," "Glosolalia," "Hot Whiskey," and The Poetry Project's "The Recluse." He lives in Brooklyn. * **X-ing Books *http://www.x-ingbooks.com/ Amy Mees and Mark Wagner are thing people. A list of their joint experiences includes publishing art catalogs, cutting up money for art's sake, letterpress printing, handcrafts (like Mom used to make), traditional book binding, and co-founding the Booklyn Artists Alliance. They are happy to associate freely with word people like Jeremy Schmall, Justin Taylor, Jen Benka, and ________ (fill in the blank). It's a venture still in the making and we're hoping to find other motivated and brilliant contributors. *Jeremy Schmall Jeremy Schmall is the co-editor and founder of *The Agriculture Reader*, and author of *Open Correspondence from the Senator: Volume 1, But a Paucity of his Voluminous Writings*. He lives in Brooklyn. *Justin Taylor *http://www.justindtaylor.net/ * Justin Taylor is the editor of *The Apocalypse Reader* (Thunder's Mouth) and *Come Back, Donald Barthelme* (McSweeney's). His work has appeared in numerous magazines, journals, and websites. He is the author of the book of poems *More Perfect Depictions of Noise* (X-ing Books) and, with the poet Jeremy Schmall, is co-editor of *The Agriculture Reader*, a handmade arts annual. Curated and with an introduction by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum ---- Directions: C/E to 23rd St., 1/9 to 18th St. Venue is bet. 10th and 11th avenues ---- ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:07:14 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Mark Weiss Subject: research question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Does anybody on the list know if there's a list on the web of the locations of papers of various poets, or of personal archives in general? Something on the order of: type in Ezra Pound and it yields Beineke, Yale. Thanks. Mark ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:59:51 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Baratier Subject: Re: New American Press Chapbook Contest In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In Columbus, a guy named Okla said he was the co-editor of New American Press and he would be publishing a collection by one of our former associate editors, Sean Karns. Has that collection been printed? Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:30:24 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed New and On View: Mudlark Flash No. 47 (2008) Career Change | Lisa Badner Lisa Badner lives in Brooklyn NY and is a student in the master class at The Writers Studio, founded and directed by Philip Schultz, in Greenwich Village. Other than "Career Change," her Mudlark Flash, her only publications, to date, are letters to the New York Times. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:20:02 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Jukka-Pekka Kervinen netlabel oretouKh (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Jukka-Pekka Kervinen netlabel oretouKh of oretouKh: oretouKh is a netlabel focused to experimental and avantgarde music, electronic music, sound installations, live coding, circuit bending, microsound, text-sound compositions, sound poetry, ambient, minimal, and noise experiments. of my (Jukka-Pekka Kervinen) 'fluctuation': first person: ambient drones and text-sound compositions by Jukka-Pekka Kervinen of your (Alan Sondheim) 'ggggg': second person: Experimental sound works by Alan Sondheim. and his (Jim Leftwich) 'fare ogs': third person: Experimental music by Jim Leftwich Here are the URLs: oretouKh: http://archive.org/details/oretoukh fluctuation: http://archive.org/details/fluctuation ggggg: http://archive.org/details/ggggg_698 */minimalwork/* fare ogs: http://archive.org/details/FareOgs ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 09:37:59 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Rebecca Weaver Subject: new issue of Midway now up In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello all, greetings from lightly snowy Saint Paul! The new issue of Midway is now up, featuring our new ephemera section and some great new multi-genre work. Find us online at www.midwayjournal.com, and if you're on Facebook, find us there, too. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 12:31:42 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: David/'Nigerian scam', Gyped! Comments: To: steph484@pacbell.net In-Reply-To: <958023.91041.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve: I think you misread me. It's not a matter=20 of most Americans having no other impression of=20 Nigerians than the term Nigerian scam, it's that=20 the scam hasn't generalized into any impression=20 at all. That may change with the increased=20 migration of Nigerians to the states, but I doubt=20 it will be colored by the scam, any more than=20 attitudes to Italians are colored by the phrase Ponzi scheme. I know you spent time in Nigeria which you=20 remember with fondness, and I assume that your=20 sensitivity to the term comes from that. You also=20 spent time in France. Do you get riled by terms=20 like French Leave, etc., or is Nigeria a special=20 case? If so, why? What else do you think should=20 be dropped from the language? How about black, as=20 in black-hearted, Black Monday, etc.? These=20 usages have nothing to do with race, but neither=20 does niggardly, and we all remember that controversy. Gypped is an interesting case. I've used it all=20 my life, never until this moment associating it=20 with gypsies, although I've in fact been robbed=20 by gypsies. We also have gypsy cabs in New=20 York--not known or assumed to be larcenous,=20 merely unlicensed. They mostly work areas where=20 yellow cabs are scarce, and I've ridden them at=20 need (I rarely ride in any cabs) without=20 reflecting on the reference to Roma. The drivers,=20 natch, aren't Roma. We have a Roma population in=20 NY. I have no idea what they think about these=20 things--they haven't seen fit to protest. It=20 would also be nice to know what they think of=20 phrases like "it's just the gypsy in my soul,"=20 with its assumption of ungrounded drifting,=20 rather than their traditional seasonal migration=20 pattern. The word nomad is misused similarly,=20 sometimes by French literary theorists. Mark At 03:09 PM 11/21/2008, Stephen Vincent wrote: >Not to retread abused tires, but my sense is=20 >that the re-use of "Nigerian scam" re-enforces a=20 >unilateral sense that it is 'native ' condition=20 >of all Nigerians to try and trick us out of our=20 >money. (Mark is quite right that only a small=20 >percentage of Americans have any other concept=20 >of Nigeria and/or Nigerians. Why is maybe a=20 >question that be addressed - but I suspect its=20 >has something to with this country's=20 >post-colonial practices (petroleum interests,=20 >etc) in Nigeria. (What you are not allowed to know will not bother you!) > >What ruffles is the way "Nigerian scam" may be=20 >similar to the way people used to glibly talk=20 >about getting 'gyped' ' - "Gyping" being the=20 >assumed 'native' characteristic" of people born=20 >as Gypsies, the outstanding trait of whom is to=20 >show up and trick upstanding people ("us") out=20 >of our money. It must of been those terribly=20 >sensitive, politically correct, language police=20 >that drove 'gyp ' out of common, civilized=20 >usage. Come on 'kids', no amount of=20 >historicizing is going to put the lid back on=20 >the issue here. I do believe it was Obododimma -=20 >a Nigeria - who put up his irritation with the=20 >'scam' tag (??) . But maybe in raising the=20 >question he was just 'scamming' us and playing with our liberal= sensitivities. > >Maybe ask a local Nigerian in your community=20 >what they think of the 'scam' term. > >Stephen V >http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > >--- On Fri, 11/21/08, Obododimma Oha wrote: >From: Obododimma Oha >Subject: Re: David >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Date: Friday, November 21, 2008, 1:15 AM > >Dear Anny,I think the point you made was quite clear: sometimes we may use >words that others object to, and, to show that we don't mean any hurt, we >apologize. That's a normal practice of redress for perceived face threat in >politeness theory. I would (and many scholars working on politeness) even >prefer Avoidance Strategy. Well, not everyone would avoid performing >face-threatening acts in cross-cultural communications. And we have seen= the >consequences in history. >Regards. >Obododimma. > >On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 9:06 PM, Anny Ballardini >wrote: > > > Dear Obododimma, > > > > I did not say that, nor did Mark as far as I know. And I think I can= speak > > up for him. > > Something that makes me chuckle is the English saying: "Excuse my >French!" > > The English, the obstinate enemies of the French, all along history, and > > vice versa: "Merde aux Anglais!" > > Not to talk of the Germans against the French, the French against the > > Italians, the Italians against them all, the Norther Italians against= the > > southern Italians, and the infinite sayings that appear once in a while= in > > a > > colloquial form. I / we do respect Derrida and his precious work. What I > > wish to say is that we cannot cancel history in just a second with good > > will. > > I do appreciate your remark, though. > > > > This is cheap humor, and anyhow that is what our daily life is made of. > > Isn't your neighbor your worst enemy? It is the law of instinct, then >with > > reason, as the goodwill of the list has shown up to the point that Barry > > Schwabsky very probably signed off (and once again I am sorry), with >reason > > you sort things out and start being more careful. I never again used the > > saying I quoted in my previous mail. It was a lesson for me. I just= wanted > > to show Barry and the list that sometimes you simply do not think, and= as >I > > said, you unwillingly trigger a chain of unsolved ethnic conflicts. > > > > I hope I was clear. I also thank you for giving me the opportunity to > > clarify what I said before. > > > > Anny Ballardini > > > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Obododimma Oha > > wrote: > > > > > Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does n > > > > > > > > > Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does >not > > > change, or should not be allowed to change. People who live in >different > > > times have different tastes and different responses. One would simply >be > > > anachronistic and socially unacceptable if one, for instance, >continues > > > using the term "policeman" (instead of "police >officer"), "air hostess" > > > (instead of "flight attendant" or "cabin crew") >or "poetess" (instead of > > > simply "poet"). I am surprised that you think that >filtering out words > > > processed as offensive in a given period is a waste of time. Perhaps >you > > are > > > also saying that it is wrong for POETICS to rule that it does not and > > would > > > not publish flame messages. Perhaps some of us can now dispense with > > > communicative competence and facework. Little wonder some wars in the > > world > > > start from recklessness in the use of words. > > > --- Obododimma Oha. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Mark Weiss > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:04:10 PM > > > Subject: Re: David > > > > > > Barry: > > > > > > Don't let the legions of the politically hyper-correct get to >you. This > > > discussion is profoundly silly. All sorts of things in every language >are > > > ascribed to one nationality or another and become >dictionary-sanctified > > for > > > reasons often lost in time. The Spanish Influenza didn't >originate in > > Spain, > > > nor the Hong Kong version in Hong Kong, and the tourism industry >thrives > > in > > > both places. I doubt that the French lose much sleep over >"french letter" > > as > > > a term for a male birth control device that helps prevent the french > > > disease, though the terms certainly go back to an English view of the > > French > > > as licentious--a stone I think nobody has thrown since at least the > > Profumo > > > scandal. For Spanish speakers la carisia francesa is cunnilingus, and >in > > > English we french kiss and there's also greek love, though the >practices > > are > > > pretty universal. I have no idea if the parasite that's killing >off > > American > > > elm trees really originated in the Netherlands, but it's still >the > > > Dutch Elm Disease. Japanese knotweed, another parasite, grows all >over > > > China and Korea. Jew's harp is apparently a corruption of jaws > > harp--maybe > > > sharks should be miffed (they always seem to be miffed). Language, >thank > > > god, is a repository of history. Cleansing it of anything that anyone > > might > > > find offensive would also cleanse it of much of the cultural data it > > stores. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 05:42 AM 11/16/2008, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > > > I have to say that, finally, I feel physically ill from the >feeling of > > > having been implicitly accused of holding and fomenting a vile >prejudice. > > > There has been talk of language as a loaded weapon and of people >feeling > > > stabbed by how they are characterized. Well, I feel like I am on the > > > receiving end of those things. I don't to get into a contest of > > > sensitivities but=C2 it is very difficult for me to see how I can > > participate > > > in a group where I feel that such views are being held of me so I >think I > > > have to withdraw, at least for now. > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. >Check > > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Anny Ballardini > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetshome > > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > > star! > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > >-- >Obododimma Oha >Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >Dept. of English >University of Ibadan >Nigeria > >& > >Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >University of Ibadan > >Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept=20 >all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 14:32:27 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Agreed. Whether or not the offense exists in an "objective" sphere, it exists, and should be redressed. And while I take issue with how much of what we say (or that language programs us to say) DOESN'T offend, I'm sure there are more egregious examples than others... Bury the hatchet. (Native American ref.) Beat a dead horse. (PETA?) Paint the town red (viking violence) Which offends more? A) B) or C)? The audience depends, and decides. On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:15 AM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > Dear Anny,I think the point you made was quite clear: sometimes we may us= e > words that others object to, and, to show that we don't mean any hurt, we > apologize. That's a normal practice of redress for perceived face threat = in > politeness theory. I would (and many scholars working on politeness) even > prefer Avoidance Strategy. Well, not everyone would avoid performing > face-threatening acts in cross-cultural communications. And we have seen > the > consequences in history. > Regards. > Obododimma. > > On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 9:06 PM, Anny Ballardini > wrote: > > > Dear Obododimma, > > > > I did not say that, nor did Mark as far as I know. And I think I can > speak > > up for him. > > Something that makes me chuckle is the English saying: "Excuse my > French!" > > The English, the obstinate enemies of the French, all along history, an= d > > vice versa: "Merde aux Anglais!" > > Not to talk of the Germans against the French, the French against the > > Italians, the Italians against them all, the Norther Italians against t= he > > southern Italians, and the infinite sayings that appear once in a while > in > > a > > colloquial form. I / we do respect Derrida and his precious work. What = I > > wish to say is that we cannot cancel history in just a second with good > > will. > > I do appreciate your remark, though. > > > > This is cheap humor, and anyhow that is what our daily life is made of. > > Isn't your neighbor your worst enemy? It is the law of instinct, then > with > > reason, as the goodwill of the list has shown up to the point that Barr= y > > Schwabsky very probably signed off (and once again I am sorry), with > reason > > you sort things out and start being more careful. I never again used th= e > > saying I quoted in my previous mail. It was a lesson for me. I just > wanted > > to show Barry and the list that sometimes you simply do not think, and = as > I > > said, you unwillingly trigger a chain of unsolved ethnic conflicts. > > > > I hope I was clear. I also thank you for giving me the opportunity to > > clarify what I said before. > > > > Anny Ballardini > > > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Obododimma Oha > > wrote: > > > > > Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does n > > > > > > > > > Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does n= ot > > > change, or should not be allowed to change. People who live in > different > > > times have different tastes and different responses. One would simply > be > > > anachronistic and socially unacceptable if one, for instance, continu= es > > > using the term "policeman" (instead of "police officer"), "air hostes= s" > > > (instead of "flight attendant" or "cabin crew") or "poetess" (instead > of > > > simply "poet"). I am surprised that you think that filtering out word= s > > > processed as offensive in a given period is a waste of time. Perhaps > you > > are > > > also saying that it is wrong for POETICS to rule that it does not and > > would > > > not publish flame messages. Perhaps some of us can now dispense with > > > communicative competence and facework. Little wonder some wars in the > > world > > > start from recklessness in the use of words. > > > --- Obododimma Oha. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Mark Weiss > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:04:10 PM > > > Subject: Re: David > > > > > > Barry: > > > > > > Don't let the legions of the politically hyper-correct get to you. Th= is > > > discussion is profoundly silly. All sorts of things in every language > are > > > ascribed to one nationality or another and become dictionary-sanctifi= ed > > for > > > reasons often lost in time. The Spanish Influenza didn't originate in > > Spain, > > > nor the Hong Kong version in Hong Kong, and the tourism industry > thrives > > in > > > both places. I doubt that the French lose much sleep over "french > letter" > > as > > > a term for a male birth control device that helps prevent the french > > > disease, though the terms certainly go back to an English view of the > > French > > > as licentious--a stone I think nobody has thrown since at least the > > Profumo > > > scandal. For Spanish speakers la carisia francesa is cunnilingus, and > in > > > English we french kiss and there's also greek love, though the > practices > > are > > > pretty universal. I have no idea if the parasite that's killing off > > American > > > elm trees really originated in the Netherlands, but it's still the > > > Dutch Elm Disease. Japanese knotweed, another parasite, grows all ov= er > > > China and Korea. Jew's harp is apparently a corruption of jaws > > harp--maybe > > > sharks should be miffed (they always seem to be miffed). Language, > thank > > > god, is a repository of history. Cleansing it of anything that anyone > > might > > > find offensive would also cleanse it of much of the cultural data it > > stores. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 05:42 AM 11/16/2008, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > > > I have to say that, finally, I feel physically ill from the feeling > of > > > having been implicitly accused of holding and fomenting a vile > prejudice. > > > There has been talk of language as a loaded weapon and of people > feeling > > > stabbed by how they are characterized. Well, I feel like I am on the > > > receiving end of those things. I don't to get into a contest of > > > sensitivities but=C2 it is very difficult for me to see how I can > > participate > > > in a group where I feel that such views are being held of me so I thi= nk > I > > > have to withdraw, at least for now. > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Anny Ballardini > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetshome > > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > > star! > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 12:06:39 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Andy Nicholson Subject: New at Lamplighter, Lamplighter, Lamplighter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Recent posts at Lamplighter, Lamplighter, Lamplighter include: Issue 1 The Stone Roses Meow Meow performing Laurie Anderson's "The Dream Before" John Granger's thesis on Jack Spicer Enjoy, Andy Nicholson http://andynicholson.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:13:05 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: Re: research question In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081121190435.07028ed8@earthlink.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mark - Here's a response from an academic librarian friend: "ArchiveGrid Google WorldCat (many archives also have catalog records)" She also suggests asking a reference librarian - most libraries will list their archival collections. Best, Charlotte On Nov 21, 2008, at 7:07 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: Does anybody on the list know if there's a list on the web of the locations of papers of various poets, or of personal archives in general? Something on the order of: type in Ezra Pound and it yields Beineke, Yale. Thanks. Mark ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 12:34:45 -0800 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Subject: "Rubbings" or, Where is David?? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081122122921.03fa12f0@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David loves to do - and interestingly - street side rubbings. I hope the processe did not get turned on him, like, did he. himself,=A0 ge= t 'rubbed' out? Anybody have a good essay ref on contemporary 'rubbings' - the origins and = aesthetics thereof. i.e. Rauschenberg/Cage and car tires rolling over a wet= white canvas. Yves Klein pulling naked fresh painted bodies over canvas to= make paintings.=A0 Amy Balkin - the other evening at Nonsite/San Francisco= - showing photographs of her rubbings of Corporate Industrial Park Signage= .=A0=A0 Making 'art' with non-art tools (car, body, manhole covers, etc.), = or making 'art' out of non-art (corporate signage, or David's industrial re= mnants). What's the diff?? Are their examples of contemporary rubbings of contemporary poems (not talk= ing 'malevolent criticism' here!) Are there examples of rubbings of portion= s of non-art texts (say, from Government Reports on Global Warming)?=A0 (Wo= rks by Hans Hackke (sp?) come to mind). What is an artist/poet/person performing when making an artifact by 'rubbin= g' an artifact of the past back into the present?=A0=20 What is 'the rub' - even the origins of that particular phrase when encount= ering a point of friction? Was Tina Fey doing=A0 'rubbings' of Sarah Palin? Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ --- On Sat, 11/22/08, Mark Weiss wrote: From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: David/'Nigerian scam', Gyped! To: steph484@pacbell.net, POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, November 22, 2008, 9:31 AM Steve: I think you misread me. It's not a matter=20 of most Americans having no other impression of=20 Nigerians than the term Nigerian scam, it's that=20 the scam hasn't generalized into any impression=20 at all. That may change with the increased=20 migration of Nigerians to the states, but I doubt=20 it will be colored by the scam, any more than=20 attitudes to Italians are colored by the phrase Ponzi scheme. I know you spent time in Nigeria which you=20 remember with fondness, and I assume that your=20 sensitivity to the term comes from that. You also=20 spent time in France. Do you get riled by terms=20 like French Leave, etc., or is Nigeria a special=20 case? If so, why? What else do you think should=20 be dropped from the language? How about black, as=20 in black-hearted, Black Monday, etc.? These=20 usages have nothing to do with race, but neither=20 does niggardly, and we all remember that controversy. Gypped is an interesting case. I've used it all=20 my life, never until this moment associating it=20 with gypsies, although I've in fact been robbed=20 by gypsies. We also have gypsy cabs in New=20 York--not known or assumed to be larcenous,=20 merely unlicensed. They mostly work areas where=20 yellow cabs are scarce, and I've ridden them at=20 need (I rarely ride in any cabs) without=20 reflecting on the reference to Roma. The drivers,=20 natch, aren't Roma. We have a Roma population in=20 NY. I have no idea what they think about these=20 things--they haven't seen fit to protest. It=20 would also be nice to know what they think of=20 phrases like "it's just the gypsy in my soul,"=20 with its assumption of ungrounded drifting,=20 rather than their traditional seasonal migration=20 pattern. The word nomad is misused similarly,=20 sometimes by French literary theorists. Mark At 03:09 PM 11/21/2008, Stephen Vincent wrote: >Not to retread abused tires, but my sense is=20 >that the re-use of "Nigerian scam" re-enforces a=20 >unilateral sense that it is 'native ' condition=20 >of all Nigerians to try and trick us out of our=20 >money. (Mark is quite right that only a small=20 >percentage of Americans have any other concept=20 >of Nigeria and/or Nigerians. Why is maybe a=20 >question that be addressed - but I suspect its=20 >has something to with this country's=20 >post-colonial practices (petroleum interests,=20 >etc) in Nigeria. (What you are not allowed to know will not bother you!) > >What ruffles is the way "Nigerian scam" may be=20 >similar to the way people used to glibly talk=20 >about getting 'gyped' ' - "Gyping" being the=20 >assumed 'native' characteristic" of people born=20 >as Gypsies, the outstanding trait of whom is to=20 >show up and trick upstanding people ("us") out=20 >of our money. It must of been those terribly=20 >sensitive, politically correct, language police=20 >that drove 'gyp ' out of common, civilized=20 >usage. Come on 'kids', no amount of=20 >historicizing is going to put the lid back on=20 >the issue here. I do believe it was Obododimma -=20 >a Nigeria - who put up his irritation with the=20 >'scam' tag (??) . But maybe in raising the=20 >question he was just 'scamming' us and playing with our liberal sensitivities. > >Maybe ask a local Nigerian in your community=20 >what they think of the 'scam' term. > >Stephen V >http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > >--- On Fri, 11/21/08, Obododimma Oha wrote: >From: Obododimma Oha >Subject: Re: David >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Date: Friday, November 21, 2008, 1:15 AM > >Dear Anny,I think the point you made was quite clear: sometimes we may use >words that others object to, and, to show that we don't mean any hurt, we >apologize. That's a normal practice of redress for perceived face threat in >politeness theory. I would (and many scholars working on politeness) even >prefer Avoidance Strategy. Well, not everyone would avoid performing >face-threatening acts in cross-cultural communications. And we have seen the >consequences in history. >Regards. >Obododimma. > >On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 9:06 PM, Anny Ballardini >wrote: > > > Dear Obododimma, > > > > I did not say that, nor did Mark as far as I know. And I think I can speak > > up for him. > > Something that makes me chuckle is the English saying: "Excuse my >French!" > > The English, the obstinate enemies of the French, all along history, and > > vice versa: "Merde aux Anglais!" > > Not to talk of the Germans against the French, the French against the > > Italians, the Italians against them all, the Norther Italians against the > > southern Italians, and the infinite sayings that appear once in a while in > > a > > colloquial form. I / we do respect Derrida and his precious work. What I > > wish to say is that we cannot cancel history in just a second with good > > will. > > I do appreciate your remark, though. > > > > This is cheap humor, and anyhow that is what our daily life is made of. > > Isn't your neighbor your worst enemy? It is the law of instinct, then >with > > reason, as the goodwill of the list has shown up to the point that Barry > > Schwabsky very probably signed off (and once again I am sorry), with >reason > > you sort things out and start being more careful. I never again used the > > saying I quoted in my previous mail. It was a lesson for me. I just wanted > > to show Barry and the list that sometimes you simply do not think, and as >I > > said, you unwillingly trigger a chain of unsolved ethnic conflicts. > > > > I hope I was clear. I also thank you for giving me the opportunity to > > clarify what I said before. > > > > Anny Ballardini > > > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Obododimma Oha > > wrote: > > > > > Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does n > > > > > > > > > Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does >not > > > change, or should not be allowed to change. People who live in >different > > > times have different tastes and different responses. One would simply >be > > > anachronistic and socially unacceptable if one, for instance, >continues > > > using the term "policeman" (instead of "police >officer"), "air hostess" > > > (instead of "flight attendant" or "cabin crew") >or "poetess" (instead of > > > simply "poet"). I am surprised that you think that >filtering out words > > > processed as offensive in a given period is a waste of time. Perhaps >you > > are > > > also saying that it is wrong for POETICS to rule that it does not and > > would > > > not publish flame messages. Perhaps some of us can now dispense with > > > communicative competence and facework. Little wonder some wars in the > > world > > > start from recklessness in the use of words. > > > --- Obododimma Oha. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Mark Weiss > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:04:10 PM > > > Subject: Re: David > > > > > > Barry: > > > > > > Don't let the legions of the politically hyper-correct get to >you. This > > > discussion is profoundly silly. All sorts of things in every language >are > > > ascribed to one nationality or another and become >dictionary-sanctified > > for > > > reasons often lost in time. The Spanish Influenza didn't >originate in > > Spain, > > > nor the Hong Kong version in Hong Kong, and the tourism industry >thrives > > in > > > both places. I doubt that the French lose much sleep over >"french letter" > > as > > > a term for a male birth control device that helps prevent the french > > > disease, though the terms certainly go back to an English view of the > > French > > > as licentious--a stone I think nobody has thrown since at least the > > Profumo > > > scandal. For Spanish speakers la carisia francesa is cunnilingus, and >in > > > English we french kiss and there's also greek love, though the >practices > > are > > > pretty universal. I have no idea if the parasite that's killing >off > > American > > > elm trees really originated in the Netherlands, but it's still >the > > > Dutch Elm Disease. Japanese knotweed, another parasite, grows all >over > > > China and Korea. Jew's harp is apparently a corruption of jaws > > harp--maybe > > > sharks should be miffed (they always seem to be miffed). Language, >thank > > > god, is a repository of history. Cleansing it of anything that anyone > > might > > > find offensive would also cleanse it of much of the cultural data it > > stores. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 05:42 AM 11/16/2008, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > > > I have to say that, finally, I feel physically ill from the >feeling of > > > having been implicitly accused of holding and fomenting a vile >prejudice. > > > There has been talk of language as a loaded weapon and of people >feeling > > > stabbed by how they are characterized. Well, I feel like I am on the > > > receiving end of those things. I don't to get into a contest of > > > sensitivities but=C2 it is very difficult for me to see how I can > > participate > > > in a group where I feel that such views are being held of me so I >think I > > > have to withdraw, at least for now. > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. >Check > > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Anny Ballardini > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetshome > > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > > star! > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > >-- >Obododimma Oha >Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >Dept. of English >University of Ibadan >Nigeria > >& > >Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >University of Ibadan > >Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept=20 >all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:37:50 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: <4835EDDD65F24030B0C7E456B748334A@OwnerPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, You are right. Generative art proliferates more easily. But I like the idea of "concept' in "conceptual." Doesn't "generative" imply more a formula, an algorithm? You would know that better, but even an algorithm may have a not openly spelled out idea, concept behind it. Walter Benjamin's mechanical reproduction is problematic. When he was applying that term to photography, photographs were extremely difficult to take, took a lot of time and exposure and the transformation from reflected light to image was fragile and full of 'mistakes." That's what makes those photographs sp powerful. did you read my essay *The Peripheral space of photography*? Ciao, Murat On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: > Though our points of view are converging, I should also try to clarify the >> opposite point I am making: when concepual, particularly of the procedural >> kind, explodes into unmanagable profileration when it becomes actualized. >> In >> that way, the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened. >> > > the procedural doesn't necessarily involve the sort of proliferation you > mention, of course. > > for instance, http://vispo.com/StirFryTexts/spastext.html or > http://vispo.com/arteroids > > the generative, on the other hand, is more often associated with > proliferation. not always, though. 'generative art' is a whole field. > dbCinema is generative. > > you say "the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened" via proliferation. > sometimes. but sometimes proliferation is part of the concept. the work of > art in the age of mechanical reproduction. proliferation. spamification. > that still doesn't tell us whether it's interesting or not. there just are > no recipes for interesting art. no algorithms that will do it every time. > some algorithms that will do it from time to time. but not all the time. > like there is no algorithm that will always be able to tell if any given > program will halt. > > "though I suppose it's easy to miss the conceptual dimension so some >> artists >> like to focus attention on it by the absence of other dimensions. In a >> sense, this is a pop approach." >> >> Well, pop can be a powerful art form. >> > > sure. > > "Something. It's just easier to pretend to the conceptual than it is to >> some >> other types of work where the chops are not so easily fakable." >> >> In my recent conversation with Chris Funhouser, he was telling me how hard >> it was to create some of his "flash"? pieces. They are gorgeous, evocative >> to watch. on the other hand, it is a blessing that they are hard to >> actualize. They are a limited number of them. >> > > true. > > > ja > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:42:50 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: David In-Reply-To: <432828.42769.qm@web111506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Yeah, I feel as if I am just recovered from the Spanish 'flu. gb On Nov 21, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Paul Nelson wrote: > No one expected a sort of Spanish Inquisition. > > > TADA! > > > Paul E. Nelson > > Global Voices Radio > SPLAB! > American Sentences > Organic Poetry > Poetry Postcard Blog > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ryan Daley > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 11:04:43 AM > Subject: Re: David > > Of note...adjectives aren't the only offending parties for our > NEWSPEAK: > > "Call a spade a spade" > > "Rule of Thumb" http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/rule-of-thumb.html > > "The whole nine yards" (reference to pilot's strafing > runs...advocating > violence?) > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Kamen Nedev > wrote: > >> On 19/11/2008, at 3:38, Mark Weiss wrote: >> >> German measles, anyone? >>> >> >> Aye. Spanish fly. Spanish Flu. Black Death. Yellow Peril. >> >> Others seem more innocent, but only just. "Japanese copy". >> >> And, nowadays, "Russian" mafia. "Under a Panama flag". >> >> Speaking of Spanish, EVERY SINGLE proverb originating from the >> 14th century >> is either violently anti-Semitic, or anti-Muslim, or simply racist >> and >> sexist. >> >> Language is a bit of a battlefield, and there's a lot of inertia >> there... >> >> Kamen >> >> http://www.waitingforcargo.net >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > Mr. G. Bowering Faster than a speeding pullet. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 18:38:26 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Ernst Herbeck site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Responses to these translations encouraged=2C especially from anyone who re= ads German: http://herbeck.blogspot.com _________________________________________________________________ Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious emai= l. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safe= ty_112008 = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:55:24 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?= Subject: New book by Sheila E. Murphy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline _______________ There is a new book by Sheila E. Murphy ... COLLECTED CHAPBOOKS, with 599 pages, 6" x 9," a hardcover book, is published by Blue Lion Books ... http://www.lulu.com/content/2251616 All of Sheila E. Murphy's chapbooks are collected here. From presses all over the world and with differing foci. That Murphy's poetry has matured through the years, one can be sure from this collection. There are no weak poems ... only page after page of her special lyrical disjunction of language. Yes, lyricism + linguistic adventurism =3D the poetry of Sheila E Murphy. http://www.lulu.com/content/2251616 For a review by Jeff Harrison of Sheila E. Murphy's "Skinny Buddha" go to http://galatearesurrection10.blogspot.com/2008/07/skinny-buddha-by-sheila-e= -murphy.html And for my own review of "Skinny Buddha" go to http://galatearesurrection9.blogspot.com/2008/03/skinny-buddha-by-sheila-e-= murphy.html Bestwishes, S=E9amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:58:58 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: research question In-Reply-To: <3B24FA0D-2785-4D72-9717-1855ADC8DD5E@optonline.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Unfortunately I have to track down a lot of archives. Worldcat, which I use all the time for books, is difficult to use for archival material, despite its listing many. I tried, as an experiment, to follow it to Blackburn material in Frank O'Hara's papers. After an hour and a half it had steered me in a circle. Google is also of limited use. ArchiveGrid looks good--I'll try it at Columbia, which I assume subscribes. Thanks for all the b/c and f/c responses. Mark At 03:13 PM 11/22/2008, you wrote: >Mark - >Here's a response from an academic librarian friend: > >"ArchiveGrid > >Google > >WorldCat (many archives also have catalog records)" > >She also suggests asking a reference librarian - most libraries will >list their archival collections. > >Best, >Charlotte > >On Nov 21, 2008, at 7:07 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >Does anybody on the list know if there's a list on the web of the >locations of papers of various poets, or of personal archives in >general? Something on the order of: type in Ezra Pound and it yields >Beineke, Yale. > >Thanks. > >Mark > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 22:52:00 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Seems to me that art, to be art, is necessarily generative. If it doesn't stimulate others to create, it's of no real value to anyone other than the person who made it. Which means it really isn't art. All art is social. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: Murat Nemet-Nejat To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:37:50 PM Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" Jim, You are right. Generative art proliferates more easily. But I like the idea of "concept' in "conceptual." Doesn't "generative" imply more a formula, an algorithm? You would know that better, but even an algorithm may have a not openly spelled out idea, concept behind it. Walter Benjamin's mechanical reproduction is problematic. When he was applying that term to photography, photographs were extremely difficult to take, took a lot of time and exposure and the transformation from reflected light to image was fragile and full of 'mistakes." That's what makes those photographs sp powerful. did you read my essay *The Peripheral space of photography*? Ciao, Murat On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: > Though our points of view are converging, I should also try to clarify the >> opposite point I am making: when concepual, particularly of the procedural >> kind, explodes into unmanagable profileration when it becomes actualized. >> In >> that way, the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened. >> > > the procedural doesn't necessarily involve the sort of proliferation you > mention, of course. > > for instance, http://vispo.com/StirFryTexts/spastext.html or > http://vispo.com/arteroids > > the generative, on the other hand, is more often associated with > proliferation. not always, though. 'generative art' is a whole field. > dbCinema is generative. > > you say "the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened" via proliferation. > sometimes. but sometimes proliferation is part of the concept. the work of > art in the age of mechanical reproduction. proliferation. spamification. > that still doesn't tell us whether it's interesting or not. there just are > no recipes for interesting art. no algorithms that will do it every time. > some algorithms that will do it from time to time. but not all the time. > like there is no algorithm that will always be able to tell if any given > program will halt. > > "though I suppose it's easy to miss the conceptual dimension so some >> artists >> like to focus attention on it by the absence of other dimensions. In a >> sense, this is a pop approach." >> >> Well, pop can be a powerful art form. >> > > sure. > > "Something. It's just easier to pretend to the conceptual than it is to >> some >> other types of work where the chops are not so easily fakable." >> >> In my recent conversation with Chris Funhouser, he was telling me how hard >> it was to create some of his "flash"? pieces. They are gorgeous, evocative >> to watch. on the other hand, it is a blessing that they are hard to >> actualize. They are a limited number of them. >> > > true. > > > ja > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:54:42 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cunningham Subject: Canadian language writers/poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down Canadian language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any Canadian language poets. Thanks. John Cunningham ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:23:45 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Nicholas Karavatos Subject: JOB - Dept of English @ American University of Sharjah Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 =20 The Department of English at the American University of Sharjah is seeking = a full-time faculty member. The successful applicant will have a PhD and ex= perience teaching various academic writing courses. Specialization in literature (preferably British literature) or CALL (Compu= ter Assisted Language Learning) and relevant scholarly publications are req= uired. Overseas teaching experience is desirable. Rank and salary will be dependent upon experience. American University of S= harjah is licensed in the United States by the Department of Education of t= he State of Delaware. It is accredited by the Commission on Higher Educatio= n of the Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools. =20 The deadline for applications will be December 28=2C 2008 and applications = should be sent to the attention of Dean William H Heidcamp at cashr@aus.edu= . =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Nicholas Karavatos Dept of English American University of Sharjah PO Box 26666 Sharjah United Arab Emirates _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_fast= er_112008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 11:57:56 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: <151917.28735.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Damn! There go Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Stravinsky et al., none of whom have stimulated me to compose music. Oops, there go Rembrandt, Picasso, and a whole bunch of others. Hal You have no enemies in this folder. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Nov 23, 2008, at 12:52 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Seems to me that art, to be art, is necessarily generative. If it > doesn't stimulate others to create, it's of no real value to anyone > other than the person who made it. Which means it really isn't art. > All art is social. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:37:50 PM > Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" > > Jim, > > You are right. Generative art proliferates more easily. But I like > the idea > of "concept' in "conceptual." Doesn't "generative" imply more a > formula, an > algorithm? You would know that better, but even an algorithm may > have a not > openly spelled out idea, concept behind it. > > Walter Benjamin's mechanical reproduction is problematic. When he was > applying that term to photography, photographs were extremely > difficult to > take, took a lot of time and exposure and the transformation from > reflected > light to image was fragile and full of 'mistakes." That's what makes > those > photographs sp powerful. did you read my essay *The Peripheral space > of > photography*? > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: > >> Though our points of view are converging, I should also try to >> clarify the >>> opposite point I am making: when concepual, particularly of the >>> procedural >>> kind, explodes into unmanagable profileration when it becomes >>> actualized. >>> In >>> that way, the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened. >>> >> >> the procedural doesn't necessarily involve the sort of >> proliferation you >> mention, of course. >> >> for instance, http://vispo.com/StirFryTexts/spastext.html or >> http://vispo.com/arteroids >> >> the generative, on the other hand, is more often associated with >> proliferation. not always, though. 'generative art' is a whole field. >> dbCinema is generative. >> >> you say "the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened" via >> proliferation. >> sometimes. but sometimes proliferation is part of the concept. the >> work of >> art in the age of mechanical reproduction. proliferation. >> spamification. >> that still doesn't tell us whether it's interesting or not. there >> just are >> no recipes for interesting art. no algorithms that will do it every >> time. >> some algorithms that will do it from time to time. but not all the >> time. >> like there is no algorithm that will always be able to tell if any >> given >> program will halt. >> >> "though I suppose it's easy to miss the conceptual dimension so some >>> artists >>> like to focus attention on it by the absence of other dimensions. >>> In a >>> sense, this is a pop approach." >>> >>> Well, pop can be a powerful art form. >>> >> >> sure. >> >> "Something. It's just easier to pretend to the conceptual than it >> is to >>> some >>> other types of work where the chops are not so easily fakable." >>> >>> In my recent conversation with Chris Funhouser, he was telling me >>> how hard >>> it was to create some of his "flash"? pieces. They are gorgeous, >>> evocative >>> to watch. on the other hand, it is a blessing that they are hard to >>> actualize. They are a limited number of them. >>> >> >> true. >> >> >> ja >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 08:55:54 -0800 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Yeat: farsi... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.rosajamali.com/arti... ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:46:31 -0800 Reply-To: jkarmin@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: JOB: Indiana State University MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii (this is a forward. please don't respond to me. good luck!) Tenure-track assistant professor, beginning August 2009, to teach three courses each semester in poetry writing, introductory creative writing, and composition or general education literature, plus undergraduate advising. Faculty in Creative Writing are expected to publish creative works and provide service to the Department, College, University, and profession. Secondary specialty in fiction, nonfiction, English teaching, composition, early British literature, or folklore desirable. Salary competitive. PhD in English or a closely related field preferred, MFA in Creative Writing with publications considered. Screening will begin December 1, 2008, and will continue until the position is filled. Apply online at https://jobs.indstate.edu. Send three letters of recommendation to Robert Perrin, Chair, Department of English, Indiana State University, Terre Haute, IN 47809. Applications acknowledged by e-mail. Contact: Indiana State University Phone: 812-237-4114 Online App. Form: http://jobs.indstate.edu/applicants/Central?quickFind=159897 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:27:37 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: <151917.28735.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Seems to me that art, to be art, is necessarily generative. If it doesn't > stimulate others to create, it's of no real value to anyone other than the > person who made it. Which means it really isn't art. All art is social. When some people call art 'generative', they mean it stimulates them to write or whatever. I take it that's your usage, Troy. But the term 'generative art' has another meaning. It refers to a type of art where the work of art, itself, generates not a response in the audience but the visible or audible (or whatever) manifestation of the viewed work of art. So, typically, this sort of work of art is an executable, digital work, an app, a program, though it needn't be. Could be an analog machine or perhaps, on a more conceptual level, injunctions to do this or that. Though, in that case, the piece itself is not really doing the 'generation' and it probably wouldn't be of much interest to people interested in 'generative art'. Just to clarify the term. On another note. A work could stimulate others to reflect. That needn't be stimulating them to create. Would that be 'generative' in your sense? Is that of value? If so, and it is not generative, then not all art is generative in your sense. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:04:10 -0500 Reply-To: az421@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Rob McLennan Subject: Runaway Jury 5; rob mclennan has opinions...; RUNAWAY JURY V: GOVERNOR GENERAL'S LITERARY AWARDS, POETRY IN ENGLISH, 2008 For the fifth Runaway Jury we return to the Governor-General's Award for Poetry in English. The nominated titles this year are: Weyman Chan, Noise from the Laundry; A. F. Moritz, The Sentinel; Sachiko Murakami, The Invisibility Exhibit; Ruth Roach Pierson, Aide-Mmoire; and Jacob Scheier, More to Keep Us Warm. The three jurors are Evie Christie, Alex Good, and rob mclennan. http://www.goodreports.net/essays/jury51.htm -- writer/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project ...novel - white www.abovegroundpress.blogspot.com * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:01:26 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I would take reflection as "generative" in that way. It is producing something. I would argue that if it produced indifference, though, it's not really generative of anything. Thanks for the clarification. Troy ________________________________ From: Jim Andrews To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 5:27:37 PM Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" > Seems to me that art, to be art, is necessarily generative. If it doesn't stimulate others to create, it's of no real value to anyone other than the person who made it. Which means it really isn't art. All art is social. When some people call art 'generative', they mean it stimulates them to write or whatever. I take it that's your usage, Troy. But the term 'generative art' has another meaning. It refers to a type of art where the work of art, itself, generates not a response in the audience but the visible or audible (or whatever) manifestation of the viewed work of art. So, typically, this sort of work of art is an executable, digital work, an app, a program, though it needn't be. Could be an analog machine or perhaps, on a more conceptual level, injunctions to do this or that. Though, in that case, the piece itself is not really doing the 'generation' and it probably wouldn't be of much interest to people interested in 'generative art'. Just to clarify the term. On another note. A work could stimulate others to reflect. That needn't be stimulating them to create. Would that be 'generative' in your sense? Is that of value? If so, and it is not generative, then not all art is generative in your sense. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:37:53 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets In-Reply-To: <18835CA4EE9540A79C2EA16138C362DC@johnbedroom> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed You're kidding! On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of > Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down > Canadian > language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any > Canadian > language poets. Thanks. > John Cunningham > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > G. Harry Bowering, OC Worth the trouble. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:02:38 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Pettiness and purposefully missing the point are also not generative. Troy ________________________________ From: Halvard Johnson To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:57:56 AM Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" Damn! There go Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Stravinsky et al., none of whom have stimulated me to compose music. Oops, there go Rembrandt, Picasso, and a whole bunch of others. Hal You have no enemies in this folder. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Nov 23, 2008, at 12:52 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Seems to me that art, to be art, is necessarily generative. If it doesn't stimulate others to create, it's of no real value to anyone other than the person who made it. Which means it really isn't art. All art is social. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:37:50 PM > Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" > > Jim, > > You are right. Generative art proliferates more easily. But I like the idea > of "concept' in "conceptual." Doesn't "generative" imply more a formula, an > algorithm? You would know that better, but even an algorithm may have a not > openly spelled out idea, concept behind it. > > Walter Benjamin's mechanical reproduction is problematic. When he was > applying that term to photography, photographs were extremely difficult to > take, took a lot of time and exposure and the transformation from reflected > light to image was fragile and full of 'mistakes." That's what makes those > photographs sp powerful. did you read my essay *The Peripheral space of > photography*? > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: > >> Though our points of view are converging, I should also try to clarify the >>> opposite point I am making: when concepual, particularly of the procedural >>> kind, explodes into unmanagable profileration when it becomes actualized. >>> In >>> that way, the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened. >>> >> >> the procedural doesn't necessarily involve the sort of proliferation you >> mention, of course. >> >> for instance, http://vispo.com/StirFryTexts/spastext.html or >> http://vispo.com/arteroids >> >> the generative, on the other hand, is more often associated with >> proliferation. not always, though. 'generative art' is a whole field. >> dbCinema is generative. >> >> you say "the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened" via proliferation. >> sometimes. but sometimes proliferation is part of the concept. the work of >> art in the age of mechanical reproduction. proliferation. spamification. >> that still doesn't tell us whether it's interesting or not. there just are >> no recipes for interesting art. no algorithms that will do it every time. >> some algorithms that will do it from time to time. but not all the time. >> like there is no algorithm that will always be able to tell if any given >> program will halt. >> >> "though I suppose it's easy to miss the conceptual dimension so some >>> artists >>> like to focus attention on it by the absence of other dimensions. In a >>> sense, this is a pop approach." >>> >>> Well, pop can be a powerful art form. >>> >> >> sure. >> >> "Something. It's just easier to pretend to the conceptual than it is to >>> some >>> other types of work where the chops are not so easily fakable." >>> >>> In my recent conversation with Chris Funhouser, he was telling me how hard >>> it was to create some of his "flash"? pieces. They are gorgeous, evocative >>> to watch. on the other hand, it is a blessing that they are hard to >>> actualize. They are a limited number of them. >>> >> >> true. >> >> >> ja >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 04:35:12 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets In-Reply-To: <6AA6CC72-07F9-4A35-B403-78BB63BE0443@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For starters (& debatable):=A0=20 Christian Bok bpnichol Steve Mccaffery Karen Mac Cormack Scott Pound Meredith Quartermain Lisa Robertson Try going through the EPC page for more info/poets:=A0=20 http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/epc.html Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Sun, 11/23/08, George Bowering wrote: From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Sunday, November 23, 2008, 9:37 PM You're kidding! On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of > Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down =20 > Canadian > language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any =20 > Canadian > language poets. Thanks. > John Cunningham =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 22:24:53 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0811221237g3fcff307n1667b6b83297311a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You are right. Generative art proliferates more easily. But I like the > idea > of "concept' in "conceptual." Doesn't "generative" imply more a formula, > an > algorithm? You would know that better, but even an algorithm may have a > not > openly spelled out idea, concept behind it. 'algorithm' is the 'natural selection' of our time. by that i mean the two terms have both been widely misunderstood. Widely. 'algorithm' is misunderstood because the theory of computation is more than misunderstood--it's unknown and somewhat non-intuitive in its results. it gives us some of the clearest statements we have about what computers can and can't do, i.e., it gives us our clearest statements about what algorithms can and cannot accomplish. The focus of the birth of computing itself was on what computers *cannot* do. Turing solved a famous math problem posed by Hilbert called the Entscheidungsproblem, a problem to decide whether it is theoretically possible to build a machine that will prove all math theorems. After understanding Godel's work, Turing understood that the answer to this question must be 'no'. But in order to prove it, he had to devise a machine that could execute any conceivable, finite algorithm, and then show that there are some true theorems this machine cannot prove. Thus was born the 'Turing machine', Turing's abstraction, the most powerful but simple machine known to humanity. It was devised mainly to help prove the Entscheidungsproblem, not to 'invent computers'. Turing invented the modern notion of what a computer is in order to prove there are some things such machines cannot do. beautiful, eh? However, while there are things such machines cannot do, there is no real evidence that we can do them either. Fundamentally, a Turing machine is a machine that can execute any conceivable, finite algorithm. There is no good evidence that there exist thought processes of which we are capable and computers are not. So, Murat, while algorithms are 'formulas', of a sort, they can get quite sophisticated with a few million lines of code. The power of the simple algorithm and a machine that can make decisions has yet to be really widely understood. At first glance, computers look like machines that are merely mechanical, like any other machine, and pose no serious resemblance to the processes of thought. But the fundamental operations of the computer are like the atomic scale of thought. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 04:59:45 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another list m= ember found problematic.=A0 The latter said so. Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote stra= ins of resistance -- i.e.=A0 the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions w= eren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & here's a = list.=A0=20 Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic and = noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms.=A0=20 The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be ... wo= rth ignoring.=A0=20 In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same ins= titutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying sentim= ents (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to calls for sens= itivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were unaware of= how our language use might be problematic.=A0 Such calls for sensitivity s= hould certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being human an= d possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being = seen as the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellec= tual prowess.=A0=20 This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the ensui= ng discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist senti= ment and the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the implica= tions of some terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone p= oints out something we've said that could be offensive.=A0=20 Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something.=A0 I'm still tr= ying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the implications of m= y actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror.=A0 Take a peek at some of w= hat Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: An excerpt: "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." and=20 "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to outweigh the benefits." Please read the entire note here: http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html and "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he found close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim desired. Such is often the case with almost all message boards and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants on the vast majority of message boards." http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs-and= -listservs.html Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 07:28:28 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets In-Reply-To: <6AA6CC72-07F9-4A35-B403-78BB63BE0443@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's face it, you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the reception of language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, right in your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august halls most of Canada's language writers emanated. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of George Bowering Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets You're kidding! On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of > Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down > Canadian > language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any > Canadian > language poets. Thanks. > John Cunningham > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > G. Harry Bowering, OC Worth the trouble. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 03/07/2008 7:19 PM ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 05:42:25 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: { brad brace } Subject: overrun MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII a small free photo-book of withdrawn 12hr images http://216.70.118.235/overrun.pdf (6.6 mb) /:b ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:58:07 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List Comments: To: amyhappens@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <424482.5867.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Amy: Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we do. Mark At 07:59 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: > From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that > another list member found problematic. The latter said so. > >Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with >rote strains of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, >my intentions weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist >terms exist & here's a list. > >Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is >problematic and noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. > >The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be >... worth ignoring. >In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those >same institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its >underlying sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should >be open to calls for sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply >anything racist or were unaware of how our language use might be >problematic. Such calls for sensitivity should certainly not be >dismissed just because they are about being human and possibly even >admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being seen as >the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his >intellectual prowess. > >This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in >the ensuing discussion, many have left due to the expression of >further racist sentiment and the denial of granting that a) we might >be ignorant of the implications of some terms and b) maybe we should >be more sensitive when someone points out something we've said that >could be offensive. > >Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm >still trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the >implications of my actions helps, then I'll pull out the >mirror. Take a peek at some of what Tim Yu and others have said >about the last race discussion on Poetics: > >An excerpt: > >"As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being >able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the >street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not >possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial >minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that >over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have >most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as >it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list >is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely >heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." > >and > >"In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was >operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After >the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I >fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, >the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to >outweigh the benefits." > >Please read the entire note here: >http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html > >and > >"It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he found >close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential >through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this >disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv >reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the >Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally >disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim >desired. > >Such is often the case with almost all message boards >and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism >and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants >on the vast majority of message boards." > >http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs-and-listservs.html > > >Be well, > >Amy > > >_______ > > > > > >Recent work > >http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > >Amy's Alias > >http://amyking.org/ > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:03:11 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Anglo-Saxon Riddle-Poem translations and illustrations on nycbigcitylit.com, from Bertha Rogers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 If you have affection for Old English poetry then you might wish to check o= ut these translations (both literary and artistic) from Bertha Rogers: -----Original Message----- From: bkrogers@delhitel.net [mailto:bkrogers@delhitel.net] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:17 PM To: Burt.kimmelman@njit.edu Subject: my Anglo-Saxon Riddle-Poem translations and illustrations on nycbi= gcitylit.com Dear Burt, I thought you might be interested in seeing my Anglo-Saxon Riddle-P= oem translations and illustrations on nycbigcitylit.com. Here's the link: http://www.bigcitylit.com/bigcitylit12.php?inc=3Dfall08/twelve_12. Hope all is well with you, and hope you have a great Thanksgiving! Best, Bertha =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 06:39:20 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: <837325.42393.qm@web46207.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I would take reflection as "generative" in that way. It is > producing something. I would argue that if it produced > indifference, though, it's not really generative of anything. > > Thanks for the clarification. > > Troy Except indifference? Surely it generated indifference? But no matter. Because art is invisible, indifference does not always signify acute perception. Even when art is visible, this is true. Just because even the whole world is initially indifferent does not mean much, sometimes. The twist is sometimes incomprehensible for a while, foreign, not obviously relevant, emotionally unrecognized, yadayada. I don't see 'generativeness' as a useful measure of artistic quality. Instead, think of it as a property that some art has for some people and not for others. A kind of joint property shared by the work and some people. They connected somehow. Com port not null. Or, if we use the definition I used of generativeness (which is how i normally use it concerning art), then think of generativeness as a property works of art are said to have when they themselves somehow generate art algorithmically. This is not a judgement but a categorization by other criteria. I don't think Halvard was being petty. He made an observation that occurred to me also. Namely, if you use generativeness as a criterion to determine what's great art or even just art, you begin the construction with difficulties, big leaks in the hull. If I'm not mistaken, that ship has never sailed to glory. It just doesn't really lend itself to being used in such a way. Not to say it isn't a useful distinction, but the tool can be formulated more objectively, particularly when generativeness isn't made to be measured by vague audience reaction (anything other than indifference is generative? then it is a distinction without significant difference, in the scheme of things, because all we can say is it's generative if it got a reaction other than indifference. yet if we stay with it needing to generate writing or whatever in the audience then we have the case Halvard raised.). ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:39:48 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo Newsletter 11.24.08-11.30.08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 LITERARY BUFFALO 11.24.08-11.30.08 EVENTS THIS WEEK Visit the Literary Buffalo calendar at www.justbuffalo.org for more detaile= d info on these events. All events free and open to the pubic unless other= wise noted. 11.24.08 Rooftop Poetry Club at Buffalo State College Andrew Zawacki and Katy Lederer Poetry Reading Monday, November 24, 4:30 PM E.H. Butler Library, Rm. 210 11.27.08 HAPPY THANKSGIVING For your reading and culinary pleasure, take a look at Buffalo poetry maven= /culinary whiz kid Geoffrey Gatza's annual Thanksgiving Menu Poem: Thanksgiving Menu Poem Guest of Honor: Anne Waldman All invited=21 Online now at http://www.blazevox.org/thanks.htm 11.29.08 Just Buffalo Interdisciplinary Event Poetry and Fashion Performances by Phranchiz, Lonnie Harrell, and Ten Thousand Hosted by Dr. Anthony Neal Saturday, November 29, 7:30 PM Uptown Performing Arts Theater,=A03165 Bailey Ave., Bflo ___________________________________________________________________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBER WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP http://www.justbuffalo.org/docs/Writer_Critique_Group.pdf ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i= mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:58:18 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: <434956.12123.qm@web46201.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Got your point, Troy. The hyperbole was also noted. Hal "Take what you can use and let the rest go by." --Ken Kesey Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Nov 23, 2008, at 9:02 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Pettiness and purposefully missing the point are also not generative. > > Troy > > > > ________________________________ > From: Halvard Johnson > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:57:56 AM > Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" > > Damn! There go Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Stravinsky et al., > none of whom have stimulated me to compose music. Oops, there go > Rembrandt, Picasso, and a whole bunch of others. > > Hal > > You have no enemies in this folder. > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@earthlink.net > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html > > > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 12:52 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > >> Seems to me that art, to be art, is necessarily generative. If it >> doesn't stimulate others to create, it's of no real value to anyone >> other than the person who made it. Which means it really isn't art. >> All art is social. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Murat Nemet-Nejat >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:37:50 PM >> Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" >> >> Jim, >> >> You are right. Generative art proliferates more easily. But I like >> the idea >> of "concept' in "conceptual." Doesn't "generative" imply more a >> formula, an >> algorithm? You would know that better, but even an algorithm may >> have a not >> openly spelled out idea, concept behind it. >> >> Walter Benjamin's mechanical reproduction is problematic. When he was >> applying that term to photography, photographs were extremely >> difficult to >> take, took a lot of time and exposure and the transformation from >> reflected >> light to image was fragile and full of 'mistakes." That's what >> makes those >> photographs sp powerful. did you read my essay *The Peripheral >> space of >> photography*? >> >> Ciao, >> >> Murat >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: >> >>> Though our points of view are converging, I should also try to >>> clarify the >>>> opposite point I am making: when concepual, particularly of the >>>> procedural >>>> kind, explodes into unmanagable profileration when it becomes >>>> actualized. >>>> In >>>> that way, the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened. >>>> >>> >>> the procedural doesn't necessarily involve the sort of >>> proliferation you >>> mention, of course. >>> >>> for instance, http://vispo.com/StirFryTexts/spastext.html or >>> http://vispo.com/arteroids >>> >>> the generative, on the other hand, is more often associated with >>> proliferation. not always, though. 'generative art' is a whole >>> field. >>> dbCinema is generative. >>> >>> you say "the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened" via >>> proliferation. >>> sometimes. but sometimes proliferation is part of the concept. the >>> work of >>> art in the age of mechanical reproduction. proliferation. >>> spamification. >>> that still doesn't tell us whether it's interesting or not. there >>> just are >>> no recipes for interesting art. no algorithms that will do it >>> every time. >>> some algorithms that will do it from time to time. but not all the >>> time. >>> like there is no algorithm that will always be able to tell if any >>> given >>> program will halt. >>> >>> "though I suppose it's easy to miss the conceptual dimension so some >>>> artists >>>> like to focus attention on it by the absence of other dimensions. >>>> In a >>>> sense, this is a pop approach." >>>> >>>> Well, pop can be a powerful art form. >>>> >>> >>> sure. >>> >>> "Something. It's just easier to pretend to the conceptual than it >>> is to >>>> some >>>> other types of work where the chops are not so easily fakable." >>>> >>>> In my recent conversation with Chris Funhouser, he was telling me >>>> how hard >>>> it was to create some of his "flash"? pieces. They are gorgeous, >>>> evocative >>>> to watch. on the other hand, it is a blessing that they are hard to >>>> actualize. They are a limited number of them. >>>> >>> >>> true. >>> >>> >>> ja >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:06:26 -0800 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Self-promotion - Visual Poetry and more... Alexander Jorgensen In-Reply-To: <837325.42393.qm@web46207.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.venerealkittens.blogspot.com/2008/10/alexander-jorgensen.html For those interested, here are examples of what I'll call a "fresh wave" of visual poetry (and I use visual poetry, because I think, and this is my need, that vispo sounds too sterile for my liking) - along with a poem not otherwise found online (as it first appeared in Noon #4). Hope you enjoy. Will say thanks ahead of time to those who do opt to visit. Incidentally, this online journal is really worth a look. Matina Stamatakis does an exceptional job with it. Regards, Alexander Jorgensen --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 4:01 AM I would take reflection as "generative" in that way. It is producing something. I would argue that if it produced indifference, though, it's not really generative of anything. Thanks for the clarification. Troy ________________________________ From: Jim Andrews To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 5:27:37 PM Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" > Seems to me that art, to be art, is necessarily generative. If it doesn't stimulate others to create, it's of no real value to anyone other than the person who made it. Which means it really isn't art. All art is social. When some people call art 'generative', they mean it stimulates them to write or whatever. I take it that's your usage, Troy. But the term 'generative art' has another meaning. It refers to a type of art where the work of art, itself, generates not a response in the audience but the visible or audible (or whatever) manifestation of the viewed work of art. So, typically, this sort of work of art is an executable, digital work, an app, a program, though it needn't be. Could be an analog machine or perhaps, on a more conceptual level, injunctions to do this or that. Though, in that case, the piece itself is not really doing the 'generation' and it probably wouldn't be of much interest to people interested in 'generative art'. Just to clarify the term. On another note. A work could stimulate others to reflect. That needn't be stimulating them to create. Would that be 'generative' in your sense? Is that of value? If so, and it is not generative, then not all art is generative in your sense. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:30:49 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Amanda Earl Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets In-Reply-To: <18835CA4EE9540A79C2EA16138C362DC@johnbedroom> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed try the anthology Shift and Switch edited by Jason Christie and a.rawlings and derek beaulieu http://www.themercurypress.ca/?q=books/shift_switch i also recommend the Canadian site Ditchpoetry.com which includes a lot of experimental poetry, and perhaps language poetry and links to those who write it. best, Amanda Earl ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:17:22 -0800 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List In-Reply-To: <424482.5867.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think this is a really important posting. Thanks, Amy. I kept wondering what all those silent list members were thinking. --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: From: amy king Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another list m= ember found problematic.=A0 The latter said so. Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote stra= ins of resistance -- i.e.=A0 the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & here's a list.=A0=20 Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic and noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms.=A0=20 The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be ... wo= rth ignoring.=A0=20 In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to calls fo= r sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were unawar= e of how our language use might be problematic.=A0 Such calls for sensitivity should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being human a= nd possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being se= en as the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellectual prowess.=A0=20 This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the ensui= ng discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist sentimen= t and the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the implications of = some terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out some= thing we've said that could be offensive.=A0=20 Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something.=A0 I'm still trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the implications of= my actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror.=A0 Take a peek at some of wha= t Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: An excerpt: "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." and=20 "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to outweigh the benefits." Please read the entire note here: http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html and "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he found close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim desired. Such is often the case with almost all message boards and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants on the vast majority of message boards." http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs-and= -listservs.html Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:56:24 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List In-Reply-To: <603117.27965.qm@web56807.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this listserv, have = joined a community of writers.=A0 Self righteous indignation as a response = to someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of race = doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum.=A0=20 As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other members, eve= n if only to=A0 maintain our right to be obtuse to other member's concerns?= =A0 Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language works, esp w= hen we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is to= express his consternation over the use of a term within this community? = =A0 Do we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members?=A0=A0= =20 You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist implica= tions, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that the usage c= arries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did not warrant s= ome of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply.=A0=20 It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is "unintentional" or not aime= d at us.=A0=A0 And easy to write it off as the 'messy business of language,= ' regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it simply s= houldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is exactly the abs= tracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets us into all = manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being "misunderstood." Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: Amy: Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language.=20 Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we do. Mark --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: From: amy king Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another list member found problematic.=A0 The latter said so. Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote stra= ins of resistance -- i.e.=A0 the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & here's a list.=A0=20 Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic and noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms.=A0=20 The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be ... wo= rth ignoring.=A0=20 In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to calls for sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were unaware of how our language use might be problematic.=A0 Such calls for sensitivity should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being human a= nd possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being se= en as the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellectual prowess.=A0=20 This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the ensui= ng discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist sentimen= t and the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the implications of = some terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out something we've said that could be offensive.=A0=20 Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something.=A0 I'm still trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the implications of= my actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror.=A0 Take a peek at some of wha= t Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: An excerpt: "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." and=20 "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to outweigh the benefits." Please read the entire note here: http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html and "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he found close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim desired. Such is often the case with almost all message boards and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants on the vast majority of message boards." http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs-and= -listservs.html Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:38:37 -0500 Reply-To: Tisa Bryant Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "experimental" and not "language" ? but I offer: Nicole Brossard M. NourbeSe Philip Louky Bersianik Madeleine Gagnon France Theoret Roy Miki Christian Bok Derek MacCormack Corey Frost -----Original Message----- >From: John Cunningham >Sent: Nov 24, 2008 8:28 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > >Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's face it, >you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the reception of >language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, right in >your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august halls >most of Canada's language writers emanated. >John Cunningham > >-----Original Message----- >From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >Behalf Of George Bowering >Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > >You're kidding! > > >On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > >> I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of >> Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down >> Canadian >> language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any >> Canadian >> language poets. Thanks. >> John Cunningham >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html >> > >G. Harry Bowering, OC >Worth the trouble. > > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >Internal Virus Database is out of date. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 03/07/2008 >7:19 PM > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:43:41 -0500 Reply-To: Tisa Bryant Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's also Christian Bok & Margaret Atwood's Ground Works: Avante-Garde for Thee, House of Anansi Press, 2003 -----Original Message----- >From: Amanda Earl >Sent: Nov 23, 2008 8:30 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > >try the anthology Shift and Switch edited by Jason Christie and >a.rawlings and derek beaulieu >http://www.themercurypress.ca/?q=books/shift_switch > >i also recommend the Canadian site Ditchpoetry.com which includes a >lot of experimental poetry, and perhaps language poetry and links to >those who write it. > >best, >Amanda Earl > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:02:53 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sarah Sarai Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain . . . the Canadian language? . . . sounds like a northern patois =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:03:52 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List Comments: To: amyhappens@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <807188.39923.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which might account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might want to avoid condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our vulnerability?") and extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations of views you disagree with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not a flame war, and there's no need to light fires. Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is the essence of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and refers to a group with a long history of discrimination, characterizing it in terms that have caused enormous misery. If it were a more recent usage we most of us would try to reform it out of existence, but the word is so deeply embedded in the language that it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with the Roma, though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's even harder to imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a different order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this discussion, by the way. Its origin is neither racist nor anti-Nigerian, and its use is limited denotatively and hasn't bled, and isn't likely to, into attitudes towards Nigerians in general. Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds it offensive, it remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree, but discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a writers' list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us separate the apples and oranges. Mark PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age more richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've never been there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those attitudes. When I was in high school a Nigerian exchange student lived with us for a few months. We became good friends. His father was head master of a very English-style boarding school, purportedly the most prestigious in the country, and Aloy regaled me with stories of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke Latin, which I envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer bottle with his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the Biafra war, like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, when separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem Hausa of the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns, though most of the resources and money were in the south. Much of the US support for Biafra was, I think, motivated by a sense that the Christian Ibo were like "us." Which is not to negate the considerable pain that caused the Biafrans to attempt to secede. New York's WBAI reported the bombings and starvation by live radio feeds. It was horrific--over a million people died. Since then I've followed the often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm aware can't be the whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the short end. Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book "Walking," which I'm proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my imagined Nigeria. None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: >Mark, > >Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this >listserv, have joined a community of writers. Self righteous >indignation as a response to someone asking for a little sensitivity >when it comes to issues of race doesn't exactly work towards >respecting group decorum. > >As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other >members, even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other >member's concerns? Are we so certain of our positions on exactly >how language works, esp when we use it, that we must let Obododimma >Oha know just how wrong he is to express his consternation over the >use of a term within this community? Do we even bother to wonder >if we've insulted other list members? > >You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist >implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out >that the usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that >certainly did not warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. > >It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is "unintentional" or >not aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business >of language,' regardless of just who we're using it around and who >we think it simply shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise >-- which is exactly the abstracted mentality that ignores who we're >talking with and gets us into all manner of nastiness on a daily >basis in the name of being "misunderstood." > >Be well, > >Amy > >_______ > > > > > >Recent work > >http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > >Amy's Alias > >http://amyking.org/ > >--- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: >Amy: > >Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. >Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we do. > >Mark >--- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: >From: amy king >Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM > > From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another list >member >found problematic. The latter said so. > >Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote strains >of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions >weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & >here's a list. > >Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic and >noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. > >The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be ... worth >ignoring. >In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same >institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying >sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to calls >for >sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were >unaware >of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for sensitivity >should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being human and >possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being seen >as >the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellectual >prowess. > >This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the ensuing >discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist sentiment >and >the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the >implications of some >terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out >something >we've said that could be offensive. > >Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm still >trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the implications of my >actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some of what >Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: > >An excerpt: > >"As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being >able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the >street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not >possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial >minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that >over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have >most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as >it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list >is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely >heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." > >and > >"In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was >operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After >the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I >fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, >the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to >outweigh the benefits." > >Please read the entire note here: >http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html > >and > >"It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he >found >close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential >through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this >disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv >reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the >Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally >disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim >desired. > >Such is often the case with almost all message boards >and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism >and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants >on the vast majority of message boards." > >http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs-and-listservs.html > > >Be well, > >Amy > > >_______ > > > > > >Recent work > >http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > >Amy's Alias > >http://amyking.org/ > > > > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:35:40 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: What we're called, was Re: David In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Obododimma & Others, I have taken much from this discussion. I think just talking about this, no matter the timbre of our responses, has given me the chance to discuss language and its repercussions...something I rarely get to do otherwise. -Ryan On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:38 AM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > Well, I guess I have I have made my point in this thread and cannot compel > anyone to give that point a second thought. By writing about "some wars > starting from recklessness in the use of language", I was not necessarily > addressing your analysis, or your use of words. I was simply referring to > the orientation of > say-it-the-way-you-like-it-don't-care-about-what-anyone-feels. It's good > that Anny Ballardini gave an example of a personal experience he had when > he > used the expression "working as hard as a negro". For him, he didn't mean > any prejudice. But someone there saw something else in the analogy and got > offended. And what did Ballardini do next?One has to decide for oneself how > to manage one's language and situations that unfold from language use in a > world where people indeed see language as social semiotic. > For me, this is where the thread ends. > > Regards. > Obododimma. > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > > > It's always interesting to be the butt of sarcasm, but accuracy also > > counts. I was I thought pointing out the large gray areas, and talking > about > > appropriateness (albeit with tongue wandering into cheek at times). I > doubt > > that I've caused too many wars today. > > > > But your examples present some interesting issues. Policeman became > > obsolete as a generic term when women were allowed to join police forces, > > and other terms that cover both genders, like cops, police, or police > > officers, took over, because it would have been absurd to do otherwise. > But > > we refer to policemen and policewomen when appropriate--it's not > > anachronistic to point out a policewoman to someone who needs help, if > > that's who's available. The word stewardess, which is the term I think > you > > were searching for, became an issue because it had an extraprofessional > use > > as fetish. That survives to an extent, but probably more than the word > > itself, which dates back to when cabin crews were exclusively female (and > > exclusively young--there were age discrimination suits about that). > Poetess > > had largely fallen out of fashion by the time modern feminism arrived, > > relegated to designating only some women poets. And it's a good thing > that > > it died--the attitude expressed by the word had become poisonous. > > > > These are all questions of gender, in a language that has become less and > > less gendered over the past thousand years. It's not something that > speakers > > of more gendered languages worry about too much, because to do something > > about it would require the restructuring of grammar. Airplane crews are > > still hotes and hotesses, actors are comedians and comediennes, etc, and > the > > French sun is masculine and the moon feminine, while in German it's the > > reverse. So the battles are fought elsewhere. In modern English there > were > > so few distinct masculine and feminine forms for human occupations that > most > > of the work of remaking the language would involve the renaming of the > > beasts--stallion and mare, buck and doe, etc. Don't mistake me--I'm > plenty > > aware of gender issues. I'm talking about the genders of articles, nouns, > > pronouns and adjectives. > > > > A travel article in today's New York Times web edition, "The Proud > Indians > > of Chiapas," has attracted a lot of comments, mostly about the use of the > > word Indian. Many of the respondents pointed out that in Chiapas, and > Latin > > America in general, the (recently) preferred term is "indigena" (which is > > both masculine and feminine, by the way). The objection noted to Indian > is > > that it's inaccurate. In Spanish it's worse than that--Indio is often a > > derogatory term, and India in some places is a synonym for whore. But the > > article is written for gringos. In the US there's no unanimity among > (let's > > call them) first peoples about what to call themselves. Native American > > doesn't seem to have caught on, though it appeared to for a while, and > > members of a lot of tribes prefer to be called American Indians and don't > > mind that their reservations are generically called Indian reservations. > In > > the country at large Indian is nowhere near as derogatory as Indio or > India. > > It apparently didn't raise eyebrows among the Times staffers. > > > > It's not up to me, it's up to the people so designated, who have a long > > history of persecution by whatever name. Not so the compound noun > Nigerian > > scam. It's hard for me to believe that anyone uses it with derogation of > > Nigerians in general in mind, and I don't think there's a shred of > > antiNigerian sentiment in the US, where most people would be hard put to > say > > what a Nigerian is. > > > > But ok, what about the name Nigeria--Blackland? Is that an acceptable > > inheritance from the colonialist past? > > > > If this thread continues, it would be nice if it involved discussion > rather > > than verbal violence. The issues are interesting in themselves. > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > At 02:53 AM 11/18/2008, Obododimma Oha wrote: > > > >> Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does n > >> Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does not > >> change, or should not be allowed to change. People who live in different > >> times have different tastes and different responses. One would simply be > >> anachronistic and socially unacceptable if one, for instance, continues > >> using the term "policeman" (instead of "police officer"), "air hostess" > >> (instead of "flight attendant" or "cabin crew") or "poetess" (instead of > >> simply "poet"). I am surprised that you think that filtering out words > >> processed as offensive in a given period is a waste of time. Perhaps you > are > >> also saying that it is wrong for POETICS to rule that it does not and > would > >> not publish flame messages. Perhaps some of us can now dispense with > >> communicative competence and facework. Little wonder some wars in the > world > >> start from recklessness in the use of words. --- Obododimma Oha. > >> ________________________________ > >> > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:52:03 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081124130337.06ff0eb0@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I didn't want to come into this debate, but it seems to me that Mark Weiss really has an orientation in language use that he thinks is entirely healthy and cannot accommodate to others. Quite unfortunate. I thought that, by referring to his age, he should be helping us (who are supposedly younger) to be a little more cautious in our use of words. I was amazed when I came across terms such as "Moslem Hausa" and "Christian Ibo" in his post that I am responding to. Shocking! Maybe he doesn't know that millions of Hausa people are Christians! And maybe he doesn't know that some Igbo (not "Ibo") people are Muslims (one of my cousins is!), adherents of African Traditional Religion, Eckists, Guru Maharajists, etc. How then can he characterize a whole ethnic group like the Hausa as being Muslim? Yes, it is true that many Hausa people are Muslims, but that does not make the whole group Muslim. I am afraid that in using the term, Mark has become a victim of the political rhetoric that tries to use religion as shibboleth. It is such shibboleth that Ojukwu's war rhetoric tried to arm itself with, to attract international Christian sympathy during the war. I am Igbo myself and did support the Biafran cause, but now, as somebody with a PhD in Stylistics (specifically in War Rhetoric and a criminologist), I can, without appearing disloyal to Biafra, tell what Ojukwu was trying to do when he used the terms "Muslim Hausa Fulani" or "Islamic North". It would be a pity if the politician is now more clever than the poet the vates, the seer, the everything! But Mark is not a politician and should know the cost of words in the marketplace of meaning making.Mark, please, don't take offence at this: think seriously about your tendency to stick to your views, and refusal to welcome the fact that you could learn from another person!Be well, poet. Obododimma. On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which might > account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might want to avoid > condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our vulnerability?") and > extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations of views you disagree > with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not a flame war, and there's no > need to light fires. > > Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is the essence > of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and refers to a group > with a long history of discrimination, characterizing it in terms that have > caused enormous misery. If it were a more recent usage we most of us would > try to reform it out of existence, but the word is so deeply embedded in the > language that it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with the > Roma, though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's even harder to > imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a different > order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this discussion, by the > way. Its origin is neither racist nor anti-Nigerian, and its use is limited > denotatively and hasn't bled, and isn't likely to, into attitudes towards > Nigerians in general. Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds it > offensive, it remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. > > Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree, but > discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a writers' > list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us separate the > apples and oranges. > > Mark > > PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age more > richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've never been > there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those attitudes. When I was in > high school a Nigerian exchange student lived with us for a few months. We > became good friends. His father was head master of a very English-style > boarding school, purportedly the most prestigious in the country, and Aloy > regaled me with stories of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke > Latin, which I envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer > bottle with his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the Biafra > war, like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, when > separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative > convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem Hausa of > the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns, though most of the > resources and money were in the south. Much of the US support for Biafra > was, I think, motivated by a sense that the Christian Ibo were like "us." > Which is not to negate the considerable pain that caused the Biafrans to > attempt to secede. New York's WBAI reported the bombings and starvation by > live radio feeds. It was horrific--over a million people died. Since then > I've followed the often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm aware can't > be the whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the short end. > > Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book "Walking," which I'm > proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my imagined Nigeria. > > None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the > limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. > > > At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: > >> Mark, >> >> Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this listserv, have >> joined a community of writers. Self righteous indignation as a response to >> someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of race >> doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum. >> >> As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other members, >> even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other member's concerns? >> Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language works, esp when >> we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is to >> express his consternation over the use of a term within this community? Do >> we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members? >> >> You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist >> implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that the >> usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did not >> warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. >> >> It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is "unintentional" or not >> aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business of language,' >> regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it simply >> shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is exactly the >> abstracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets us into >> all manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being >> "misunderstood." >> >> Be well, >> >> Amy >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: >> Amy: >> >> Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. >> Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we do. >> >> Mark >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: >> From: amy king >> Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM >> >> From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another list >> member >> found problematic. The latter said so. >> >> Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote >> strains >> of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions >> weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & >> here's a list. >> >> Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic and >> noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. >> >> The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be ... >> worth >> ignoring. >> In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same >> institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying >> sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to calls >> for >> sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were >> unaware >> of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for sensitivity >> should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being human >> and >> possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being >> seen >> as >> the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellectual >> prowess. >> >> This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the >> ensuing >> discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist >> sentiment >> and >> the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the implications of >> some >> terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out >> something >> we've said that could be offensive. >> >> Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm still >> trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the implications >> of my >> actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some of what >> Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: >> >> An excerpt: >> >> "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being >> able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the >> street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not >> possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial >> minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that >> over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have >> most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as >> it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list >> is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely >> heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." >> >> and >> >> "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was >> operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After >> the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I >> fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, >> the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to >> outweigh the benefits." >> >> Please read the entire note here: >> http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html >> >> and >> >> "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he >> found >> close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential >> through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this >> disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv >> reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the >> Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally >> disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim >> desired. >> >> Such is often the case with almost all message boards >> and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism >> and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants >> on the vast majority of message boards." >> >> >> http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs-and-listservs.html >> >> >> Be well, >> >> Amy >> >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:23:21 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I mean, I couldnt believe that you yourself didn't know the field as well as anyone,. gb On Nov 24, 2008, at 5:28 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's > face it, > you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the reception of > language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, > right in > your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august > halls > most of Canada's language writers emanated. > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of George Bowering > Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > > You're kidding! > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > >> I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of >> Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down >> Canadian >> language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any >> Canadian >> language poets. Thanks. >> John Cunningham >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html >> > > G. Harry Bowering, OC > Worth the trouble. > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: > 03/07/2008 > 7:19 PM > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > G. Bowering Knows which door the tiger's behind. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:24:12 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Vera Renczi Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think it's funny that you are creating a coarse and yet you seem to have very limited knowledge of the subject, but perhaps that is how it's done when one teaches Colin smith Dorthy Trujillo Lusk Stephen Cain Margaret Christakos Daniel F Bradley Victor Coleman Christopher Dewdney V ** On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:28 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's face it, > you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the reception of > language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, right in > your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august halls > most of Canada's language writers emanated. > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of George Bowering > Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > > You're kidding! > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > > > I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of > > Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down > > Canadian > > language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any > > Canadian > > language poets. Thanks. > > John Cunningham > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html > > > > G. Harry Bowering, OC > Worth the trouble. > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 03/07/2008 > 7:19 PM > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:59:19 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, =A0 I'm writing as a member of this listserv community=A0who is slightly appall= ed and very=A0bewildered=A0by the lack of care & concern=A0evidenced sent i= n a number of=A0replies to Oha.=A0=20 =A0 And yes, I have indeed thought much of Oha's request and analyzed my experi= ence with the term, which is limited too.=A0 You might recall that my initi= al response to Oha was one of=A0surprise, apology, and a note to say that I= hadn't thought of the implications of using the term.=A0=20 =A0 Since then, my conclusion is that a) all email scams do not originate in Ni= geria, but in fact, originate from everywhere, including the U.S., =A0b) I = don't refer to email scams that originate from elsewhere as=A0"British Scam= s" or "American scams", and c) isn't it simply easier, and more respectful = as per Oha's request, to refer to these scams as "email scams", both here i= n this community and elsewhere?=A0=A0 How hard is it to acknowledge the ris= k, make=A0the switch, and let Oha know his note made=A0me think?=A0 =A0Why = must he receive belligerence?=A0 I'm amazed at his consistent grace and civ= ility through all of this.=A0=20 =A0 My sense is, after much discussion with my students about the topic, that t= he average American doesn't know much about Nigeria or Nigerian culture, my= self included.=A0 So why would I risk perpetuating the negativity that goes= with calling email scams, "Nigerian scams?"=A0 Similarly, many Americans d= idn't have much reference when they heard the word "Arab."=A0 Post 9/11, we= 've got "Arab terrorists," which=A0has pretty much become synonymous with "= Arabs" in our culture now (of course, generally speaking), and look at the= =A0negativity that term generates.=A0=20 =A0 Are all terrorists "Arab"?=A0 Are all Arabs=A0"terrorists"?=A0 Are all emai= l scams=A0perpetuated by=A0"Nigerians?"=A0 Are all Nigerians=A0email scamme= rs?=A0 =A0When I find it difficult to come up with much to say about Nigeri= a, I don't want my limited vocabulary to be about=A0Nigerian scams after al= l, nor do I want to reinforce that vocabulary elsewhere.=A0 This was no gre= at leap nor=A0grave concession.=A0 Moreover,=A0what grieves me, again,=A0ar= e the=A0resistances to=A0the validity of=A0Oha's request=A0sent in the face= of what could only=A0have been=A0a difficult one to make.=A0 And now, the = refusal to acknowledge that this list has a history of such resistance--and= that we may be carrying on tradition.=A0=20 =A0 Be well, =A0 Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which might > account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might want to avoid > condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our vulnerability?") and > extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations of views you disagree > with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not a flame war, and there's no > need to light fires. > > Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is the essence > of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and refers to a group > with a long history of discrimination, characterizing it in terms that have > caused enormous misery. If it were a more recent usage we most of us woul= d > try to reform it out of existence, but the word is so deeply embedded in the > language that it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with the > Roma, though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's even harder to > imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a differen= t > order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this discussion, by the > way. Its origin is neither racist nor anti-Nigerian, and its use is limited > denotatively and hasn't bled, and isn't likely to, into attitudes towards > Nigerians in general. Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds it > offensive, it remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. > > Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree, but > discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a writers' > list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us separate the > apples and oranges. > > Mark > > PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age more > richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've never been > there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those attitudes. When I was in > high school a Nigerian exchange student lived with us for a few months. W= e > became good friends. His father was head master of a very English-style > boarding school, purportedly the most prestigious in the country, and Alo= y > regaled me with stories of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke > Latin, which I envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer > bottle with his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the Biafr= a > war, like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, when > separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative > convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem Hausa o= f > the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns, though most of the > resources and money were in the south. Much of the US support for Biafra > was, I think, motivated by a sense that the Christian Ibo were like "us." > Which is not to negate the considerable pain that caused the Biafrans to > attempt to secede. New York's WBAI reported the bombings and starvation by > live radio feeds. It was horrific--over a million people died. Since then > I've followed the often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm aware can't > be the whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the short end. > > Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book "Walking," which I'm > proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my imagined Nigeria. > > None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the > limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. > > > At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: > >> Mark, >> >> Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this listserv, have >> joined a community of writers. Self righteous indignation as a response to >> someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of race >> doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum. >> >> As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other members, >> even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other member's concerns? >> Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language works, esp when >> we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is to >> express his consternation over the use of a term within this community? Do >> we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members? >> >> You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist >> implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that the >> usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did not >> warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. >> >> It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is "unintentional" or not >> aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business of language,' >> regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it simply >> shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is exactly the >> abstracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets us into >> all manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being >> "misunderstood." >> >> Be well, >> >> Amy >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: >> Amy: >> >> Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. >> Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we do. >> >> Mark >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: >> From: amy king >> Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM >> >> From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another list >> member >> found problematic. The latter said so. >> >> Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote >> strains >> of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions >> weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & >> here's a list. >> >> Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic and >> noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. >> >> The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be ... >> worth >> ignoring. >> In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same >> institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying >> sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to calls >> for >> sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were >> unaware >> of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for sensitivity >> should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being human >> and >> possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being >> seen >> as >> the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellectual >> prowess. >> >> This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the >> ensuing >> discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist >> sentiment >> and >> the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the implications of >> some >> terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out >> something >> we've said that could be offensive. >> >> Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm still >> trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the implications >> of my >> actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some of what >> Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: >> >> An excerpt: >> >> "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being >> able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the >> street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not >> possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial >> minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that >> over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have >> most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as >> it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list >> is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely >> heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." >> >> and >> >> "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was >> operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After >> the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I >> fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, >> the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to >> outweigh the benefits." >> >> Please read the entire note here: >> http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html >> >> and >> >> "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he >> found >> close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential >> through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this >> disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv >> reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the >> Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally >> disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim >> desired. >> >> Such is often the case with almost all message boards >> and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism >> and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants >> on the vast majority of message boards." >> >> >> http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs-and= -listservs.html >> >> >> Be well, >> >> Amy >> >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=20 Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:01:57 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Now, if I were to answer your point in a generative manner, I would point out that Picasso has in fact caused me to write poems, so his work is cross-generative. I've also been influenced to write works based on feelings evoked by music. Keats' "Ode on a Grecian Urn" was a result of his having gone to see a show of Greek artifacts. An art work does not have to be generative into the same art form, and it does not have to make everyone be generative of art work, either -- though telling others about what you experienced is also a form of generativeness many non-artists can and do engage in. Troy ________________________________ From: Halvard Johnson To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:58:18 AM Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" Got your point, Troy. The hyperbole was also noted. Hal "Take what you can use and let the rest go by." --Ken Kesey Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Nov 23, 2008, at 9:02 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Pettiness and purposefully missing the point are also not generative. > > Troy > > > > ________________________________ > From: Halvard Johnson > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:57:56 AM > Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" > > Damn! There go Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Stravinsky et al., > none of whom have stimulated me to compose music. Oops, there go > Rembrandt, Picasso, and a whole bunch of others. > > Hal > > You have no enemies in this folder. > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@earthlink.net > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html > > > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 12:52 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > >> Seems to me that art, to be art, is necessarily generative. If it doesn't stimulate others to create, it's of no real value to anyone other than the person who made it. Which means it really isn't art. All art is social. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Murat Nemet-Nejat >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:37:50 PM >> Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" >> >> Jim, >> >> You are right. Generative art proliferates more easily. But I like the idea >> of "concept' in "conceptual." Doesn't "generative" imply more a formula, an >> algorithm? You would know that better, but even an algorithm may have a not >> openly spelled out idea, concept behind it. >> >> Walter Benjamin's mechanical reproduction is problematic. When he was >> applying that term to photography, photographs were extremely difficult to >> take, took a lot of time and exposure and the transformation from reflected >> light to image was fragile and full of 'mistakes." That's what makes those >> photographs sp powerful. did you read my essay *The Peripheral space of >> photography*? >> >> Ciao, >> >> Murat >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: >> >>> Though our points of view are converging, I should also try to clarify the >>>> opposite point I am making: when concepual, particularly of the procedural >>>> kind, explodes into unmanagable profileration when it becomes actualized. >>>> In >>>> that way, the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened. >>>> >>> >>> the procedural doesn't necessarily involve the sort of proliferation you >>> mention, of course. >>> >>> for instance, http://vispo.com/StirFryTexts/spastext.html or >>> http://vispo.com/arteroids >>> >>> the generative, on the other hand, is more often associated with >>> proliferation. not always, though. 'generative art' is a whole field. >>> dbCinema is generative. >>> >>> you say "the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened" via proliferation. >>> sometimes. but sometimes proliferation is part of the concept. the work of >>> art in the age of mechanical reproduction. proliferation. spamification. >>> that still doesn't tell us whether it's interesting or not. there just are >>> no recipes for interesting art. no algorithms that will do it every time. >>> some algorithms that will do it from time to time. but not all the time. >>> like there is no algorithm that will always be able to tell if any given >>> program will halt. >>> >>> "though I suppose it's easy to miss the conceptual dimension so some >>>> artists >>>> like to focus attention on it by the absence of other dimensions. In a >>>> sense, this is a pop approach." >>>> >>>> Well, pop can be a powerful art form. >>>> >>> >>> sure. >>> >>> "Something. It's just easier to pretend to the conceptual than it is to >>>> some >>>> other types of work where the chops are not so easily fakable." >>>> >>>> In my recent conversation with Chris Funhouser, he was telling me how hard >>>> it was to create some of his "flash"? pieces. They are gorgeous, evocative >>>> to watch. on the other hand, it is a blessing that they are hard to >>>> actualize. They are a limited number of them. >>>> >>> >>> true. >>> >>> >>> ja >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:15:42 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I clarified a bit in my response to Halvard what I meant by "generative" in the sense I was using it. Not everyone can be artistically generative. Some people just feel the need to share in a positive manner what they experienced. "To generate" is to grow and to reproduce. So let me go further: neither indifference nor a negative reaction to a work is generative (and I'm not sure "indifference" can be generated -- it seems to me to be a neutral state and not an emotional state at all). A work that is generative in this sense, then, is also a beautiful work. I was thinking of Elaine Scarry's comment in On Beauty that the experience of beauty makes you want to reproduce it. That can be as simple as telling others about it, getting others to come share it with you, etc., or as complex as writing a symphony or a sonnet or making a sculpture of a painting in response to it. A work that is generative for me is not necessarily one that influences me to make another work of the same kind -- or even results in an immediate response in some other genre. Things are not so linear and clear-cut that way. There is no linear cause-and-effect in artistic influence, inspiration, etc. Troy ________________________________ From: Jim Andrews To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 8:39:20 AM Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" > I would take reflection as "generative" in that way. It is > producing something. I would argue that if it produced > indifference, though, it's not really generative of anything. > > Thanks for the clarification. > > Troy Except indifference? Surely it generated indifference? But no matter. Because art is invisible, indifference does not always signify acute perception. Even when art is visible, this is true. Just because even the whole world is initially indifferent does not mean much, sometimes. The twist is sometimes incomprehensible for a while, foreign, not obviously relevant, emotionally unrecognized, yadayada. I don't see 'generativeness' as a useful measure of artistic quality. Instead, think of it as a property that some art has for some people and not for others. A kind of joint property shared by the work and some people. They connected somehow. Com port not null. Or, if we use the definition I used of generativeness (which is how i normally use it concerning art), then think of generativeness as a property works of art are said to have when they themselves somehow generate art algorithmically. This is not a judgement but a categorization by other criteria. I don't think Halvard was being petty. He made an observation that occurred to me also. Namely, if you use generativeness as a criterion to determine what's great art or even just art, you begin the construction with difficulties, big leaks in the hull. If I'm not mistaken, that ship has never sailed to glory. It just doesn't really lend itself to being used in such a way. Not to say it isn't a useful distinction, but the tool can be formulated more objectively, particularly when generativeness isn't made to be measured by vague audience reaction (anything other than indifference is generative? then it is a distinction without significant difference, in the scheme of things, because all we can say is it's generative if it got a reaction other than indifference. yet if we stay with it needing to generate writing or whatever in the audience then we have the case Halvard raised.). ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:29:28 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Steensen,Sasha" Subject: Bonfire Broadside--Alice Notley In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Bonfire Press is pleased to announce the publication of "To Ric" by Alice Notley. DESCRIPTION: Broadside printed using lead type. Signed by author. 12 x 10. (2008). Editi= on of 75 copies. $10 (includes shipping; Canada, $12; all other countries $14.50). For more information, please visit: http://bonfirepress.colostate.edu =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:47:12 -0800 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: <434956.12123.qm@web46201.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii hasn't Harold Bloom been saying something about generative art for the longest???.... He refers to it as "the anxiety of influence." --- On Sun, 11/23/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Sunday, November 23, 2008, 10:02 PM Pettiness and purposefully missing the point are also not generative. Troy ________________________________ From: Halvard Johnson To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:57:56 AM Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" Damn! There go Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Stravinsky et al., none of whom have stimulated me to compose music. Oops, there go Rembrandt, Picasso, and a whole bunch of others. Hal You have no enemies in this folder. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Nov 23, 2008, at 12:52 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Seems to me that art, to be art, is necessarily generative. If it doesn't stimulate others to create, it's of no real value to anyone other than the person who made it. Which means it really isn't art. All art is social. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:37:50 PM > Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" > > Jim, > > You are right. Generative art proliferates more easily. But I like the idea > of "concept' in "conceptual." Doesn't "generative" imply more a formula, an > algorithm? You would know that better, but even an algorithm may have a not > openly spelled out idea, concept behind it. > > Walter Benjamin's mechanical reproduction is problematic. When he was > applying that term to photography, photographs were extremely difficult to > take, took a lot of time and exposure and the transformation from reflected > light to image was fragile and full of 'mistakes." That's what makes those > photographs sp powerful. did you read my essay *The Peripheral space of > photography*? > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: > >> Though our points of view are converging, I should also try to clarify the >>> opposite point I am making: when concepual, particularly of the procedural >>> kind, explodes into unmanagable profileration when it becomes actualized. >>> In >>> that way, the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened. >>> >> >> the procedural doesn't necessarily involve the sort of proliferation you >> mention, of course. >> >> for instance, http://vispo.com/StirFryTexts/spastext.html or >> http://vispo.com/arteroids >> >> the generative, on the other hand, is more often associated with >> proliferation. not always, though. 'generative art' is a whole field. >> dbCinema is generative. >> >> you say "the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened" via proliferation. >> sometimes. but sometimes proliferation is part of the concept. the work of >> art in the age of mechanical reproduction. proliferation. spamification. >> that still doesn't tell us whether it's interesting or not. there just are >> no recipes for interesting art. no algorithms that will do it every time. >> some algorithms that will do it from time to time. but not all the time. >> like there is no algorithm that will always be able to tell if any given >> program will halt. >> >> "though I suppose it's easy to miss the conceptual dimension so some >>> artists >>> like to focus attention on it by the absence of other dimensions. In a >>> sense, this is a pop approach." >>> >>> Well, pop can be a powerful art form. >>> >> >> sure. >> >> "Something. It's just easier to pretend to the conceptual than it is to >>> some >>> other types of work where the chops are not so easily fakable." >>> >>> In my recent conversation with Chris Funhouser, he was telling me how hard >>> it was to create some of his "flash"? pieces. They are gorgeous, evocative >>> to watch. on the other hand, it is a blessing that they are hard to >>> actualize. They are a limited number of them. >>> >> >> true. >> >> >> ja >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:48:52 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "K. R. Waldrop" Subject: 3 new titles from Burning Deck Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed 3 new Burning Deck titles are available from: Small Press Distribution, www.spdbooks.org or orders@spdbooks.org www.burningdeck.com and in Europe, after Jan.1, 2009, from H Press: www.hpress.no 1. DICHTEN =3D, NO. 10: 16 NEW (TO AMERICAN READERS) POETS translated from the German by A. Duncan, T. Frazer, N. Grindell, C. =20 Hawkey & R. Waldrop Poetry, 144 pages, offset, smyth-sewn ISBN 978-1-886224-92-6 original paperback $14 Publication date: December 15, 2008 A magazine issue with poems by Ann Cotton, Franz Josef Czernin, =20 Michael Donhauser, Ute Eisinger, Daniel Falb, Hendrik Jackson, Marget =20= Kreidl, Bert Papenfuss, Steffen Popp, Monika Rinck, Farhad Showghi, =20 Hans Thill, Raphael Urweider, Anja Utler, Ron Winkler, and Uljana Wolf. The poets in this issue, mostly in their thirties and forties, show =20 great formal diversity. The works range from the sound explorations =20 of Anja Utler to the camp sonnets of Ann Cotten; from Czernin=92s puns =20= and permutations to Rinck=92s and Falb=92s deceptively simple parlando; =20= from Donhauser=92s grammatical disruptions to Papenfuss=92s baroque = lists =20 and =93sassy East tone.=94 But they all share a concern with form and =20= with language as material. The poets have also all received at least =20 one prize. 2. S=E9rie d=92Ecriture #21: Isabelle Baladine Howald SECRET OF BREATH translated from the French by El=E9na Rivera Poetry, 64 pages, offset, smyth-sewn ISBN 978-1-886224-91-9 original paperback $14 Publication date: December 15, 2008 SECRET OF BREATH is a suite for two voices =97 a voice from outside and =20= a voice from inside, a voice of the living and a voice of the dying =97 =20= in a race against death and toward death. Caught in a narrative frame =20= and a landscape marked by war, snow, cold, speed, and separation, =20 these two voices, even while facing death, embody the approach of =20 love. The secret of breath is as much a kiss as a last sigh. ISABELLE BALADINE HOWALD lives and works in Strasbourg, where she =20 directs the =93Philosophical and Literary Encounters=94 of the Librairie = =20 Kl=E9ber. Her books of poetry include LES NOMS, TR=C8S BAS (A Passage, =20= 1986) and LES ETATS DE LA D=C9MOLITION (Editions Jacques Br=E9mond, =20 2002). Our present volume, SECRET DES SOUFFLES, is her most recent =20 book (=E9ditions Melville, 2004). EL=C9NA RIVERA was born in Mexico City and spent her childhood, to the =20= age of thirteen, in Paris. She is the author of MISTAKES, ACCIDENTS =20 AND A WANT OF LIBERTY (Barque Press, 2006) and SUGGESTIONS AT EVERY =20 TURN (Seeing Eye Books, 2005). Her translations have appeared in the =20 CHICAGO REVIEW and CIRCUMFERENCE: POETRY IN TRANSLATION. She was =20 recently awarded the 2007 Witter Bynner Poetry Translator Residency =20 at the Santa Fe Institute for the Arts. 3. S=E9rie d=92Ecriture Supplement #5 Anne Portugal QUISITE MOMENT translated from the French by Rosmarie Waldrop Poetry, 24 pages, offset, saddlestitched ISBN 978-1-886224-95-7 chapbook $8 Publication date: December 15, 2008 As Anne Portugal has said, her poetry breaks with elevated subjects =20 as well as with the beauty of phrases. =93Poetry is is a laboratory of =20= languages. It is first and foremost physical.=94 Here, she truncates =20 words to give rise to new rhythms, puzzlement, and sheer fun. ANNE PORTUGAL was born in Angers, in 1949. She lives and teaches in =20 Paris. She is also the model of a famous =93Poets=92 Calendar.=94 Her = most =20 recent books of poetry are DANS LA REPRODUCTION EN DEUX PARTIES =20 =C9GALES DES PLANTES ET DES ANIMAUX (1999) and D=C9FINITIF BOB (2002). =20= Norma Cole has translated NUDE (Kelsey St. Press, 2001). =20= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:54:14 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Martha Cinader Mims Subject: L&BH Radio Hour and Open Mic Nov. 25 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed L&BH Radio Hour and Open Mic Nov. 25, 8-9pm PST At the start of the show I will be joined by Listen & Be Heard Theatre Critic Maria Vrobel, to talk about holiday shows around the Bay Area and hear her recommendations. As always, the show will also feature announcements posted at Listen & Be Heard Network Arts News, some poetry and/or storytelling, some arts editorializing, and calls from listeners with thoughts to share and arts announcements. Poets are encouraged to call in with a poem. Listen, Chat and "Click to Talk" at http://www.blogtalkradio.com/listenandbeheard/2008/11/26/LBH-Radio- Hour-Nov-25 Call-in Number: (718) 506-1481 Please join me to listen and be heard. Wishing you Peace and Poetry martha cinader mims Listen & Be Heard Network editor@listenandbeheard.net http://www.listenandbeheard.net Get Skype and call me for free. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:59:56 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I apologize for my spelling. Ibo was the standard spelling back then in the US media. Igbo and the half a dozen variant spellings I know mostly from Cuban sources, and I thought they referred to a different people. This from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Nigeria#Religions_.282000_estimate.29, "Demographics of Nigeria," whose accuracy I of course can't vouch for: Religious Affiliation Among Major Ethnic Groups Source: http://www.worldchristiandatabase.org * Hausa: 25,900,527 (Muslims 99.90%, Christians 0.10%) * Yoruba: 22,921,473 (Christians 60.00%, Muslims 36.38%, Animists 3.00%, Non Religious 0.50%, Baha'is 0.07%, Atheists 0.05%) * Igbo: 22,926,340 (Christians 97.00%, Animists 2.00%, Non Religious 0.80%, Atheists 0.10%, Baha'is 0.10%) I've left out the rest of the table. If you have better sources, I'd be happy to learn. I'm of course aware that religion was used to manipulate international opinion during the war. I learn from others all the time, usually through civil discussion. Like most of us, it's not the first time that I've thought about these issues, and what I use of the language has changed, in part because of input from others. I remain unconvinced in this instance. I don't think, as you suggest, that that's because of a character flaw. I'm content to let this discussion end, but I'm not content to be insulted. If you want to have at me again, please take it backchannel. Front or backchannel, you might want to read your posts before sending them. Mark At 01:52 PM 11/24/2008, you wrote: >I didn't want to come into this debate, but it seems to me that Mark Weiss >really has an orientation in language use that he thinks is entirely healthy >and cannot accommodate to others. Quite unfortunate. I thought that, by >referring to his age, he should be helping us (who are supposedly younger) >to be a little more cautious in our use of words. I was amazed when I came >across terms such as "Moslem Hausa" and "Christian Ibo" in his post that I >am responding to. Shocking! Maybe he doesn't know that millions of Hausa >people are Christians! And maybe he doesn't know that some Igbo (not "Ibo") >people are Muslims (one of my cousins is!), adherents of African Traditional >Religion, Eckists, Guru Maharajists, etc. How then can he characterize a >whole ethnic group like the Hausa as being Muslim? Yes, it is true that many >Hausa people are Muslims, but that does not make the whole group Muslim. I >am afraid that in using the term, Mark has become a victim of the political >rhetoric that tries to use religion as shibboleth. It is such shibboleth >that Ojukwu's war rhetoric tried to arm itself with, to attract >international Christian sympathy during the war. I am Igbo myself and did >support the Biafran cause, but now, as somebody with a PhD in Stylistics >(specifically in War Rhetoric and a criminologist), I can, without appearing >disloyal to Biafra, tell what Ojukwu was trying to do when he used the terms >"Muslim Hausa Fulani" or "Islamic North". It would be a pity if the >politician is now more clever than the poet the vates, the seer, the >everything! But Mark is not a politician and should know the cost of words >in the marketplace of meaning making.Mark, please, don't take offence at >this: think seriously about your tendency to stick to your views, and >refusal to welcome the fact that you could learn from another person!Be >well, poet. >Obododimma. > > >On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which might > > account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might want to avoid > > condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our vulnerability?") and > > extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations of views you disagree > > with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not a flame war, and there's no > > need to light fires. > > > > Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is the essence > > of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and refers to a group > > with a long history of discrimination, characterizing it in terms that have > > caused enormous misery. If it were a more recent usage we most of us would > > try to reform it out of existence, but the word is so deeply > embedded in the > > language that it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with the > > Roma, though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's even harder to > > imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a different > > order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this discussion, by the > > way. Its origin is neither racist nor anti-Nigerian, and its use is limited > > denotatively and hasn't bled, and isn't likely to, into attitudes towards > > Nigerians in general. Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds it > > offensive, it remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. > > > > Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree, but > > discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a writers' > > list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us separate the > > apples and oranges. > > > > Mark > > > > PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age more > > richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've never been > > there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those attitudes. > When I was in > > high school a Nigerian exchange student lived with us for a few months. We > > became good friends. His father was head master of a very English-style > > boarding school, purportedly the most prestigious in the country, and Aloy > > regaled me with stories of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke > > Latin, which I envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer > > bottle with his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the Biafra > > war, like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, when > > separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative > > convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem Hausa of > > the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns, though most of the > > resources and money were in the south. Much of the US support for Biafra > > was, I think, motivated by a sense that the Christian Ibo were like "us." > > Which is not to negate the considerable pain that caused the Biafrans to > > attempt to secede. New York's WBAI reported the bombings and starvation by > > live radio feeds. It was horrific--over a million people died. Since then > > I've followed the often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm aware can't > > be the whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the > short end. > > > > Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book "Walking," which I'm > > proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my imagined Nigeria. > > > > None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the > > limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. > > > > > > At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: > > > >> Mark, > >> > >> Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this listserv, have > >> joined a community of writers. Self righteous indignation as a > response to > >> someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of race > >> doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum. > >> > >> As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other members, > >> even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other > member's concerns? > >> Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language > works, esp when > >> we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is to > >> express his consternation over the use of a term within this > community? Do > >> we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members? > >> > >> You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist > >> implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that the > >> usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did not > >> warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. > >> > >> It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is "unintentional" or not > >> aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business > of language,' > >> regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it simply > >> shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is exactly the > >> abstracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets us into > >> all manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being > >> "misunderstood." > >> > >> Be well, > >> > >> Amy > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Recent work > >> > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >> > >> > >> > >> Amy's Alias > >> > >> http://amyking.org/ > >> > >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> Amy: > >> > >> Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. > >> Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we do. > >> > >> Mark > >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: > >> From: amy king > >> Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM > >> > >> From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another list > >> member > >> found problematic. The latter said so. > >> > >> Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote > >> strains > >> of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions > >> weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & > >> here's a list. > >> > >> Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic and > >> noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. > >> > >> The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be ... > >> worth > >> ignoring. > >> In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same > >> institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying > >> sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to calls > >> for > >> sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were > >> unaware > >> of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for sensitivity > >> should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being human > >> and > >> possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being > >> seen > >> as > >> the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellectual > >> prowess. > >> > >> This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the > >> ensuing > >> discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist > >> sentiment > >> and > >> the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the implications of > >> some > >> terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out > >> something > >> we've said that could be offensive. > >> > >> Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm still > >> trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the implications > >> of my > >> actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some of what > >> Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: > >> > >> An excerpt: > >> > >> "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being > >> able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the > >> street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not > >> possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial > >> minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that > >> over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have > >> most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as > >> it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list > >> is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely > >> heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." > >> > >> and > >> > >> "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was > >> operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After > >> the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I > >> fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, > >> the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to > >> outweigh the benefits." > >> > >> Please read the entire note here: > >> http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html > >> > >> and > >> > >> "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he > >> found > >> close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential > >> through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this > >> disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv > >> reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the > >> Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally > >> disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim > >> desired. > >> > >> Such is often the case with almost all message boards > >> and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism > >> and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants > >> on the vast majority of message boards." > >> > >> > >> > http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs-and-listservs.html > >> > >> > >> Be well, > >> > >> Amy > >> > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Recent work > >> > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >> > >> > >> > >> Amy's Alias > >> > >> http://amyking.org/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > >-- >Obododimma Oha >Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >Dept. of English >University of Ibadan >Nigeria > >& > >Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >University of Ibadan > >Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:05:01 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List Comments: To: amyhappens@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <14086.48036.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Amy & Others, I still feel like there's been a misreading of what the term "Nigerian email scam" refers to: particularly, the Nigerian 419 Letter DOES originate in Nigeria and the appeal, the voice of the email DID originate in Nigeria. Most people DO NOT refer to these emails as "Nigerian emails" but rather use the term "419 Letters." Using this term locates the particular email in question as being punishable by Code 419 in Nigeria, but doesn't assume that all authors are living in or nationals of Nigeria. -Ryan On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 3:59 PM, amy king wrote: > Mark, > > I'm writing as a member of this listserv community who is slightly appalled > and very bewildered by the lack of care & concern evidenced sent in a number > of replies to Oha. > > And yes, I have indeed thought much of Oha's request and analyzed my > experience with the term, which is limited too. You might recall that my > initial response to Oha was one of surprise, apology, and a note to say that > I hadn't thought of the implications of using the term. > > Since then, my conclusion is that a) all email scams do not originate in > Nigeria, but in fact, originate from everywhere, including the U.S., b) I > don't refer to email scams that originate from elsewhere as "British Scams" > or "American scams", and c) isn't it simply easier, and more respectful as > per Oha's request, to refer to these scams as "email scams", both here in > this community and elsewhere? How hard is it to acknowledge the risk, > make the switch, and let Oha know his note made me think? Why must he > receive belligerence? I'm amazed at his consistent grace and civility > through all of this. > > My sense is, after much discussion with my students about the topic, that > the average American doesn't know much about Nigeria or Nigerian culture, > myself included. So why would I risk perpetuating the negativity that goes > with calling email scams, "Nigerian scams?" Similarly, many Americans > didn't have much reference when they heard the word "Arab." Post 9/11, > we've got "Arab terrorists," which has pretty much become synonymous with > "Arabs" in our culture now (of course, generally speaking), and look at > the negativity that term generates. > > Are all terrorists "Arab"? Are all Arabs "terrorists"? Are all email > scams perpetuated by "Nigerians?" Are all Nigerians email scammers? When > I find it difficult to come up with much to say about Nigeria, I don't want > my limited vocabulary to be about Nigerian scams after all, nor do I want to > reinforce that vocabulary elsewhere. This was no great leap nor grave > concession. Moreover, what grieves me, again, are the resistances to the > validity of Oha's request sent in the face of what could only have been a > difficult one to make. And now, the refusal to acknowledge that this list > has a history of such resistance--and that we may be carrying on tradition. > > Be well, > > Amy > > _______ > > > Recent work > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > Amy's Alias > http://amyking.org/ > > > > On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > > > I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which might > > account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might want to avoid > > condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our vulnerability?") > and > > extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations of views you disagree > > with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not a flame war, and > there's no > > need to light fires. > > > > Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is > the essence > > of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and refers to a > group > > with a long history of discrimination, characterizing it in terms that > have > > caused enormous misery. If it were a more recent usage we most of us > would > > try to reform it out of existence, but the word is so deeply embedded in > the > > language that it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with > the > > Roma, though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's > even harder to > > imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a > different > > order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this discussion, by > the > > way. Its origin is neither racist nor anti-Nigerian, and its use is > limited > > denotatively and hasn't bled, and isn't likely to, into attitudes > towards > > Nigerians in general. Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds > it > > offensive, it remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. > > > > Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree, but > > discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a > writers' > > list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us separate the > > apples and oranges. > > > > Mark > > > > PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age more > > richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've never > been > > there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those attitudes. When I > was in > > high school a Nigerian exchange student lived with us for a few months. > We > > became good friends. His father was head master of a very English-style > > boarding school, purportedly the most prestigious in the country, and > Aloy > > regaled me with stories of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke > > Latin, which I envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer > > bottle with his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the > Biafra > > war, like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, > when > > separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative > > convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem Hausa > of > > the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns, though most of the > > resources and money were in the south. Much of the US support for Biafra > > was, I think, motivated by a sense that the Christian Ibo were like > "us." > > Which is not to negate the considerable pain that caused the Biafrans to > > attempt to secede. New York's WBAI reported the bombings and > starvation by > > live radio feeds. It was horrific--over a million people died. Since then > > I've followed the often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm > aware can't > > be the whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the short > end. > > > > Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book > "Walking," which I'm > > proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my imagined > Nigeria. > > > > None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the > > limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. > > > > > > At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: > > > >> Mark, > >> > >> Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this > listserv, have > >> joined a community of writers. Self righteous indignation as a > response to > >> someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of > race > >> doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum. > >> > >> As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other > members, > >> even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other member's > concerns? > >> Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language works, esp > when > >> we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is > to > >> express his consternation over the use of a term within this > community? Do > >> we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members? > >> > >> You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist > >> implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that > the > >> usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did > not > >> warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. > >> > >> It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is > "unintentional" or not > >> aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business of > language,' > >> regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it > simply > >> shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is > exactly the > >> abstracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets > us into > >> all manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being > >> "misunderstood." > >> > >> Be well, > >> > >> Amy > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Recent work > >> > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >> > >> > >> > >> Amy's Alias > >> > >> http://amyking.org/ > >> > >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> Amy: > >> > >> Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. > >> Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we > do. > >> > >> Mark > >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: > >> From: amy king > >> Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM > >> > >> From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another > list > >> member > >> found problematic. The latter said so. > >> > >> Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote > >> strains > >> of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my > intentions > >> weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms > exist & > >> here's a list. > >> > >> Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic > and > >> noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. > >> > >> The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be > ... > >> worth > >> ignoring. > >> In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those > same > >> institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its > underlying > >> sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to > calls > >> for > >> sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or > were > >> unaware > >> of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for > sensitivity > >> should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being > human > >> and > >> possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls > being > >> seen > >> as > >> the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his > intellectual > >> prowess. > >> > >> This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the > >> ensuing > >> discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist > >> sentiment > >> and > >> the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the > implications of > >> some > >> terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out > >> something > >> we've said that could be offensive. > >> > >> Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm > still > >> trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the > implications > >> of my > >> actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some > of what > >> Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: > >> > >> An excerpt: > >> > >> "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of > being > >> able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon > on the > >> street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is > not > >> possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial > >> minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that > >> over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have > >> most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, > as > >> it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics > list > >> is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely > >> heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted > down." > >> > >> and > >> > >> "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he > was > >> operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. > After > >> the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I > >> fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For > me, > >> the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to > >> outweigh the benefits." > >> > >> Please read the entire note here: > >> > http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html > >> > >> and > >> > >> "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact > that he > >> found > >> close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential > >> through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this > >> disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of > Listserv > >> reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the > >> Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally > >> disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim > >> desired. > >> > >> Such is often the case with almost all message boards > >> and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism > >> and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants > >> on the vast majority of message boards." > >> > >> > >> > > http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs-and-listservs.html > >> > >> > >> Be well, > >> > >> Amy > >> > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Recent work > >> > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >> > >> > >> > >> Amy's Alias > >> > >> http://amyking.org/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:27:09 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List Comments: To: amyhappens@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <14086.48036.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'm very tired of this, but I do appreciate your more reasonable tone. One might have hoped that a discussion like this would lead, as I think Steve Vincent attempted, to a broader discussion of the remnants of difficult histories that all languages retain. What you or I or the list think about Nigerian scam will have little influence on broader usage. It's different in kind, I think, from current use of the word arab in the US, which is far more toxic than Nigerian scam and far more globalized, and also not something we can conveniently drop, as I suspect that with the passage of time Nigerian scam will be. So that's where my question, to myself as well as to the discussion at large, leads. OK, arab can't be dropped from usage because it's what a large number of people call themselves, and the obloquy attached to it will pass away as circumstances change, hopefully in our lifetimes. But what about Steve's example, or the ones I mentioned, which for most of us don't carry over to a broader prejudice? What about words like "bugger," originally Bulgar? We cleanse the language, unconsciously, all the time--Dutch treat is the sole remnant in common use of a large amount of nastiness from 17th Century Anglo-Dutch wars. So, my question is about the conscious cleansing of language--the sense of what's appropriate usage, and what merits the proverbial soaping. We don't have an official body, like the Academie Francaise, in charge of this (not that the Academie has been particularly successful of late--remember the circumflex?), and the dictionary-makers, who used to take it upon themselves to decide, have become increasingly democratic. Any such decision involves the ceding of linguistic choice. Which means it's a matter of case-by-case discussion, and case-by-case use. Unless we want the good old days of not very long ago, when books could be banned for officially unacceptable words. Peace. I really do have other things to do. Mark At 03:59 PM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: >Mark, > >I'm writing as a member of this listserv community who is slightly >appalled and very bewildered by the lack of care & concern evidenced >sent in a number of replies to Oha. > >And yes, I have indeed thought much of Oha's request and analyzed my >experience with the term, which is limited too. You might recall >that my initial response to Oha was one of surprise, apology, and a >note to say that I hadn't thought of the implications of using the term. > >Since then, my conclusion is that a) all email scams do not >originate in Nigeria, but in fact, originate from everywhere, >including the U.S., b) I don't refer to email scams that originate >from elsewhere as "British Scams" or "American scams", and c) isn't >it simply easier, and more respectful as per Oha's request, to refer >to these scams as "email scams", both here in this community and >elsewhere? How hard is it to acknowledge the risk, make the >switch, and let Oha know his note made me think? Why must he >receive belligerence? I'm amazed at his consistent grace and >civility through all of this. > >My sense is, after much discussion with my students about the topic, >that the average American doesn't know much about Nigeria or >Nigerian culture, myself included. So why would I risk perpetuating >the negativity that goes with calling email scams, "Nigerian >scams?" Similarly, many Americans didn't have much reference when >they heard the word "Arab." Post 9/11, we've got "Arab terrorists," >which has pretty much become synonymous with "Arabs" in our culture >now (of course, generally speaking), and look at the negativity that >term generates. > >Are all terrorists "Arab"? Are all Arabs "terrorists"? Are all >email scams perpetuated by "Nigerians?" Are all Nigerians email >scammers? When I find it difficult to come up with much to say >about Nigeria, I don't want my limited vocabulary to be about >Nigerian scams after all, nor do I want to reinforce that vocabulary >elsewhere. This was no great leap nor grave concession. Moreover, >what grieves me, again, are the resistances to the validity of Oha's >request sent in the face of what could only have been a difficult >one to make. And now, the refusal to acknowledge that this list has >a history of such resistance--and that we may be carrying on tradition. > >Be well, > >Amy > >_______ > > >Recent work >http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >Amy's Alias >http://amyking.org/ > > > >On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Mark Weiss >wrote: > > > I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which might > > account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might want to avoid > > condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our vulnerability?") >and > > extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations of views you disagree > > with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not a flame war, and >there's no > > need to light fires. > > > > Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is >the essence > > of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and refers to a >group > > with a long history of discrimination, characterizing it in terms that >have > > caused enormous misery. If it were a more recent usage we most of us would > > try to reform it out of existence, but the word is so deeply embedded in >the > > language that it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with >the > > Roma, though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's >even harder to > > imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a different > > order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this discussion, by >the > > way. Its origin is neither racist nor anti-Nigerian, and its use is >limited > > denotatively and hasn't bled, and isn't likely to, into attitudes >towards > > Nigerians in general. Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds >it > > offensive, it remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. > > > > Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree, but > > discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a >writers' > > list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us separate the > > apples and oranges. > > > > Mark > > > > PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age more > > richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've never >been > > there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those attitudes. When I >was in > > high school a Nigerian exchange student lived with us for a few months. We > > became good friends. His father was head master of a very English-style > > boarding school, purportedly the most prestigious in the country, and Aloy > > regaled me with stories of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke > > Latin, which I envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer > > bottle with his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the Biafra > > war, like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, >when > > separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative > > convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem Hausa of > > the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns, though most of the > > resources and money were in the south. Much of the US support for Biafra > > was, I think, motivated by a sense that the Christian Ibo were like >"us." > > Which is not to negate the considerable pain that caused the Biafrans to > > attempt to secede. New York's WBAI reported the bombings and >starvation by > > live radio feeds. It was horrific--over a million people died. Since then > > I've followed the often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm >aware can't > > be the whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the short >end. > > > > Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book >"Walking," which I'm > > proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my imagined >Nigeria. > > > > None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the > > limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. > > > > > > At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: > > > >> Mark, > >> > >> Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this >listserv, have > >> joined a community of writers. Self righteous indignation as a >response to > >> someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of >race > >> doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum. > >> > >> As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other >members, > >> even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other member's >concerns? > >> Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language works, esp >when > >> we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is >to > >> express his consternation over the use of a term within this >community? Do > >> we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members? > >> > >> You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist > >> implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that >the > >> usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did >not > >> warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. > >> > >> It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is >"unintentional" or not > >> aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business of >language,' > >> regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it >simply > >> shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is >exactly the > >> abstracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets >us into > >> all manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being > >> "misunderstood." > >> > >> Be well, > >> > >> Amy > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Recent work > >> > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >> > >> > >> > >> Amy's Alias > >> > >> http://amyking.org/ > >> > >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> Amy: > >> > >> Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. > >> Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we >do. > >> > >> Mark > >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: > >> From: amy king > >> Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM > >> > >> From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another >list > >> member > >> found problematic. The latter said so. > >> > >> Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote > >> strains > >> of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my >intentions > >> weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms >exist & > >> here's a list. > >> > >> Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic >and > >> noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. > >> > >> The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be >... > >> worth > >> ignoring. > >> In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those >same > >> institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its >underlying > >> sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to >calls > >> for > >> sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or >were > >> unaware > >> of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for >sensitivity > >> should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being >human > >> and > >> possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls >being > >> seen > >> as > >> the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his >intellectual > >> prowess. > >> > >> This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the > >> ensuing > >> discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist > >> sentiment > >> and > >> the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the >implications of > >> some > >> terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out > >> something > >> we've said that could be offensive. > >> > >> Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm >still > >> trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the >implications > >> of my > >> actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some >of what > >> Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: > >> > >> An excerpt: > >> > >> "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of >being > >> able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon >on the > >> street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is >not > >> possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial > >> minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that > >> over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have > >> most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, >as > >> it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics >list > >> is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely > >> heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted >down." > >> > >> and > >> > >> "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he >was > >> operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. >After > >> the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I > >> fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For >me, > >> the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to > >> outweigh the benefits." > >> > >> Please read the entire note here: > >> >http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html > >> > >> and > >> > >> "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact >that he > >> found > >> close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential > >> through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this > >> disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of >Listserv > >> reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the > >> Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally > >> disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim > >> desired. > >> > >> Such is often the case with almost all message boards > >> and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism > >> and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants > >> on the vast majority of message boards." > >> > >> > >> >http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs-and-listservs.html > >> > >> > >> Be well, > >> > >> Amy > >> > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Recent work > >> > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >> > >> > >> > >> Amy's Alias > >> > >> http://amyking.org/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > >-- >Obododimma Oha >Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >Dept. of English >University of Ibadan >Nigeria > >& > >Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >University of Ibadan > >Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:41:32 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081124153811.0700aca8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Those figures are totally wrong and have been seriously contested in Nigeria. The best place to go for such statistics is the relevant ministry of the Nigerian government and not Wiki. We know the uses and abuses of statistics! I don't know how those sources got their figures -- I suspect they simply saw every person saying salaam alaikum or putting on the long gown as "Muslim". Another point is that the Hausa are different from the Fulani, but some people tend to conflate the two groups. It is actually the Fulani (whose leader Othman dan Fodio conquered Hausaland in a jihad in the precolonial era) that are predominantly Muslims. I am away from Nigeria at the moment and cannot reach more reliable database. The point I had made in my previous note -- and which is more important -- is that Hausa and Igbo -- cannot be assigned to particular religions. It would be fallacious to say "Muslim Hausa" when some Hausa people are not Muslims. As a matter of fact, it is a form of assimilation that the non-Muslim Hausa in Nigeria have all along tried to resist. The Igbo society, too, is multi-religious and not necessarily "Christian". You should also know that today, in Nigeria, terms like "Muslim Hausa" and "Christian Igbo" are viewed (especially by the government) as inciting ethno-religious prejudice and violence. We, in Nigerian, have had series of religious crises and bloodshed, and would view any discourse that divides the nation along religious lines as wicked and anti-Nigerian. Tomorrow, if you are appointed American Ambassador to Nigeria, Nigerians would not treat you as their friend if in addressing them you use terms such as "Muslim Hausa" and "Christian Igbo" and cite Wiki as your source! My best regards, Mark. -- Obododimma. On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 9:59 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I apologize for my spelling. Ibo was the standard spelling back then in the > US media. Igbo and the half a dozen variant spellings I know mostly from > Cuban sources, and I thought they referred to a different people. > > This from > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Nigeria#Religions_.282000_estimate.29, > "Demographics of Nigeria," whose accuracy I of course can't vouch for: > > > Religious Affiliation Among Major Ethnic Groups > > Source: > http://www.worldchristiandatabase.org > * Hausa: 25,900,527 (Muslims 99.90%, Christians 0.10%) > * Yoruba: 22,921,473 (Christians 60.00%, Muslims 36.38%, Animists 3.00%, > Non Religious 0.50%, Baha'is 0.07%, Atheists 0.05%) > * Igbo: 22,926,340 (Christians 97.00%, Animists 2.00%, Non Religious > 0.80%, Atheists 0.10%, Baha'is 0.10%) > > I've left out the rest of the table. If you have better sources, I'd be > happy to learn. I'm of course aware that religion was used to manipulate > international opinion during the war. > > I learn from others all the time, usually through civil discussion. Like > most of us, it's not the first time that I've thought about these issues, > and what I use of the language has changed, in part because of input from > others. I remain unconvinced in this instance. I don't think, as you > suggest, that that's because of a character flaw. > > I'm content to let this discussion end, but I'm not content to be insulted. > If you want to have at me again, please take it backchannel. Front or > backchannel, you might want to read your posts before sending them. > > Mark > > > > At 01:52 PM 11/24/2008, you wrote: > >> I didn't want to come into this debate, but it seems to me that Mark Weiss >> really has an orientation in language use that he thinks is entirely >> healthy >> and cannot accommodate to others. Quite unfortunate. I thought that, by >> referring to his age, he should be helping us (who are supposedly younger) >> to be a little more cautious in our use of words. I was amazed when I came >> across terms such as "Moslem Hausa" and "Christian Ibo" in his post that I >> am responding to. Shocking! Maybe he doesn't know that millions of Hausa >> people are Christians! And maybe he doesn't know that some Igbo (not >> "Ibo") >> people are Muslims (one of my cousins is!), adherents of African >> Traditional >> Religion, Eckists, Guru Maharajists, etc. How then can he characterize a >> whole ethnic group like the Hausa as being Muslim? Yes, it is true that >> many >> Hausa people are Muslims, but that does not make the whole group Muslim. I >> am afraid that in using the term, Mark has become a victim of the >> political >> rhetoric that tries to use religion as shibboleth. It is such shibboleth >> that Ojukwu's war rhetoric tried to arm itself with, to attract >> international Christian sympathy during the war. I am Igbo myself and did >> support the Biafran cause, but now, as somebody with a PhD in Stylistics >> (specifically in War Rhetoric and a criminologist), I can, without >> appearing >> disloyal to Biafra, tell what Ojukwu was trying to do when he used the >> terms >> "Muslim Hausa Fulani" or "Islamic North". It would be a pity if the >> politician is now more clever than the poet the vates, the seer, the >> everything! But Mark is not a politician and should know the cost of words >> in the marketplace of meaning making.Mark, please, don't take offence at >> this: think seriously about your tendency to stick to your views, and >> refusal to welcome the fact that you could learn from another person!Be >> well, poet. >> Obododimma. >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Mark Weiss >> wrote: >> >> > I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which might >> > account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might want to >> avoid >> > condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our vulnerability?") and >> > extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations of views you disagree >> > with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not a flame war, and there's >> no >> > need to light fires. >> > >> > Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is the >> essence >> > of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and refers to a >> group >> > with a long history of discrimination, characterizing it in terms that >> have >> > caused enormous misery. If it were a more recent usage we most of us >> would >> > try to reform it out of existence, but the word is so deeply embedded in >> the >> > language that it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with the >> > Roma, though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's even harder >> to >> > imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a >> different >> > order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this discussion, by the >> > way. Its origin is neither racist nor anti-Nigerian, and its use is >> limited >> > denotatively and hasn't bled, and isn't likely to, into attitudes >> towards >> > Nigerians in general. Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds >> it >> > offensive, it remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. >> > >> > Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree, but >> > discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a writers' >> > list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us separate the >> > apples and oranges. >> > >> > Mark >> > >> > PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age more >> > richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've never been >> > there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those attitudes. When I >> was in >> > high school a Nigerian exchange student lived with us for a few months. >> We >> > became good friends. His father was head master of a very English-style >> > boarding school, purportedly the most prestigious in the country, and >> Aloy >> > regaled me with stories of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke >> > Latin, which I envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer >> > bottle with his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the >> Biafra >> > war, like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, >> when >> > separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative >> > convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem Hausa >> of >> > the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns, though most of >> the >> > resources and money were in the south. Much of the US support for Biafra >> > was, I think, motivated by a sense that the Christian Ibo were like >> "us." >> > Which is not to negate the considerable pain that caused the Biafrans to >> > attempt to secede. New York's WBAI reported the bombings and starvation >> by >> > live radio feeds. It was horrific--over a million people died. Since >> then >> > I've followed the often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm aware >> can't >> > be the whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the short >> end. >> > >> > Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book "Walking," which >> I'm >> > proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my imagined >> Nigeria. >> > >> > None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the >> > limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. >> > >> > >> > At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: >> > >> >> Mark, >> >> >> >> Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this listserv, >> have >> >> joined a community of writers. Self righteous indignation as a >> response to >> >> someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of race >> >> doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum. >> >> >> >> As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other members, >> >> even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other member's >> concerns? >> >> Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language works, esp >> when >> >> we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is to >> >> express his consternation over the use of a term within this community? >> Do >> >> we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members? >> >> >> >> You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist >> >> implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that >> the >> >> usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did >> not >> >> warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. >> >> >> >> It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is "unintentional" or not >> >> aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business of >> language,' >> >> regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it simply >> >> shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is exactly >> the >> >> abstracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets us >> into >> >> all manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being >> >> "misunderstood." >> >> >> >> Be well, >> >> >> >> Amy >> >> >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: >> >> Amy: >> >> >> >> Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. >> >> Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we do. >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: >> >> From: amy king >> >> Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List >> >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM >> >> >> >> From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another >> list >> >> member >> >> found problematic. The latter said so. >> >> >> >> Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote >> >> strains >> >> of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions >> >> weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & >> >> here's a list. >> >> >> >> Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic >> and >> >> noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. >> >> >> >> The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be >> ... >> >> worth >> >> ignoring. >> >> In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same >> >> institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying >> >> sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to >> calls >> >> for >> >> sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were >> >> unaware >> >> of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for >> sensitivity >> >> should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being >> human >> >> and >> >> possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls >> being >> >> seen >> >> as >> >> the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellectual >> >> prowess. >> >> >> >> This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the >> >> ensuing >> >> discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist >> >> sentiment >> >> and >> >> the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the implications >> of >> >> some >> >> terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out >> >> something >> >> we've said that could be offensive. >> >> >> >> Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm still >> >> trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the >> implications >> >> of my >> >> actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some of >> what >> >> Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: >> >> >> >> An excerpt: >> >> >> >> "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being >> >> able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the >> >> street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not >> >> possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial >> >> minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that >> >> over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have >> >> most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as >> >> it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list >> >> is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely >> >> heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was >> >> operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After >> >> the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I >> >> fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, >> >> the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to >> >> outweigh the benefits." >> >> >> >> Please read the entire note here: >> >> >> http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he >> >> found >> >> close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential >> >> through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this >> >> disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv >> >> reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the >> >> Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally >> >> disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim >> >> desired. >> >> >> >> Such is often the case with almost all message boards >> >> and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism >> >> and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants >> >> on the vast majority of message boards." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs-and-listservs.html >> >> >> >> >> >> Be well, >> >> >> >> Amy >> >> >> >> >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> >> guidelines >> >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> >> guidelines >> >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> > >> > ================================== >> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Obododimma Oha >> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >> Dept. of English >> University of Ibadan >> Nigeria >> >> & >> >> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >> University of Ibadan >> >> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >> +234 805 350 6604. >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:10:13 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets In-Reply-To: <795C631E-C306-4A64-B0D7-6155C71E3D76@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unfortunately, the American language writers are much more well known than the Canadian. Furthermore, it is much easier in Vancouver to have knowledge due to the presence of Kootenay. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of George Bowering Sent: November 24, 2008 1:23 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets I mean, I couldnt believe that you yourself didn't know the field as well as anyone,. gb On Nov 24, 2008, at 5:28 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's > face it, > you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the reception of > language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, > right in > your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august > halls > most of Canada's language writers emanated. > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of George Bowering > Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > > You're kidding! > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > >> I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of >> Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down >> Canadian >> language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any >> Canadian >> language poets. Thanks. >> John Cunningham >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html >> > > G. Harry Bowering, OC > Worth the trouble. > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: > 03/07/2008 > 7:19 PM > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > G. Bowering Knows which door the tiger's behind. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 03/07/2008 7:19 PM ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:28:46 -0000 Reply-To: Robin Hamilton Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List In-Reply-To: <14086.48036.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << a) all email scams do not originate in Nigeria, but in fact, originate from everywhere, including the U.S., >> Who's arguing this? But what we're referring to is not simply any scam, not simply even any email scam, but to a quite prominent sub-variety -- the Spanish Prisoner Email Scam. That would be an accurate way of referring to it, but somewhat cumbersome. So what to name it? I have to say, I'm surprised that no one has taken up what seems to me glaringly obvious, that the verbal *content of the text of the emails, from the start and continuing, is glaringly racist, in the originals and all sub-varieties, playing on stereotypical Western attitudes to the English linguistic competence of African first-language speakers. {Jeezus fucking wept, we're arguing over what we *call a series Web-broadcasted texts that are *predicated, in their content, in a singularly slimy and racist use of implied linguistic responses. Leave aside the moral content of the texts themselves. Angels weep.} If I had to put my money where my mouth is, the texts are written by highly-competent native English language speakers writing in blackface. And most likely, originating ultimately in the West. << b) I don't refer to email scams that originate from elsewhere as "British Scams" or "American scams", >> What I am currently deluged with, in requests from Lloyds or Abbey National, for my bank details, are UK English region targeted scams. Calling them "British" isn't racist (though it might have aspects of that) but blurs the fact that email scams hitting my Inbox are becoming more and more targetted, and misses the point that these scams are angled at a specifically *English (not a more generally UK British -- Scots or Welsh) audience. << and c) isn't it simply easier, and more respectful as per Oha's request, to refer to these scams as "email scams", >> Except that we're talking about a *subset of a variety of email scams. I'd be happy to have a term that avoids "Nigerian" or even 419, but which acknowledges the history of not simply the activity of that scam but its current manifestation in cyberspace -- SPES[cam]? As a last point, I'm dubious about Mark's worry about the connection between being gypped, and the Rom. I think this is a false parallel between being gypped and jewing someone down. [Aside -- Mark, I'll go into details backchannel if you want about my doubts about the etymology of "gypped" as linked to the Rom -- the OED supports you, but the dates are totally wrong. I think this is an example of reverse folk-etymolygy.] Robin ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:05:18 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jerome Rothenberg Subject: Millennium-3 preview: Sousandrade MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A good chunk of "Wall Street Inferno" by the great Brazilian = late-romantic/early-modernist Sousandrade appears on the University of = California Press weblog as a preview of its appearance in Poems for the = Millennium, volume 3: The University of California Book of Romantic and = Postromantic Poetry = (http://ucpress.typepad.com/ucpresslog/2008/10/wall-street-inferno-by-sou= s=E2ndrade.html). A different excerpt and the commentary from PM3 by me = and Jeffrey Robinson is on my blog at = http://poemsandpoetics.blogspot.com/2008/10/reconfiguring-romanticism-16.= html, along with other previews from the big book. First copies of the book have now reached me, well in advance of the = mid-January pub date, so that Jeffrey and I are now considering readings = & signings to mark the occasion. Jerome Rothenberg "There is an avant-garde that cannot be defeated." 1026 San Abella M. Giroud, quoted in J.R., "Autobiography" = =20 Encinitas, CA 92024 =20 (760) 436-9923 =20 jrothenberg at cox.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:45:30 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: Spring 2008 Readings, Columbia College Chicago Comments: To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spring 2008 Poetry Reading Series Columbia College Chicago All readings free and open to the public For more information: (312) 369-8819 ______________________________________ COURT GREEN (Dossier: Letters) and FENCE reading and release party (AWP Off-Site Reading) Thursday, February 12, 2009, 6:30 p.m. Film Row Cinema 1104 South Wabash Avenue, 8th floor BRANDI HOMAN & JAMES SHEA Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 5:30 p.m. Ferguson Theater 600 South Michigan Avenue, 1st floor KIMIKO HAHN & TRACI MORRIS Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 5:30 p.m. Sherwood Conservatory Recital Hall 1312 South Michigan Avenue 10th ANNUAL COLUMBIA COLLEGE CITYWIDE UNDERGRADUATE POETRY FESTIVAL Thursday, April 2, 2009, 5:30 p.m. Conaway Center 1104 South Wabash, 1st Floor MICHAEL BURKARD & RON PADGETT Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 5:30 p.m. Film Row Cinema 1104 South Wabash Avenue, 8th floor COLUMBIA POETRY REVIEW (#22) reading and release party Thursday, April 30, 2009, 5:30 p.m. Sherwood Conservatory Recital Hall 1312 South Michigan Avenue ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:52:38 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: What we're called, was Re: David MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit just calling cops pigs was bad enough they weren't all bad and pigs themselves tho a trifle messy are very nice orderly and smart creatures tasty as well ah language the jew thing the jap thing the mick thing like lenny bruce said if we hadn't paid so much attention to it it mighta gone away On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:35:40 -0500 Ryan Daley writes: > Obododimma & Others, > > I have taken much from this discussion. I think just talking about > this, no > matter the timbre of our responses, has given me the chance to > discuss > language and its repercussions...something I rarely get to do > otherwise. > > -Ryan > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:38 AM, Obododimma Oha > wrote: > > > Well, I guess I have I have made my point in this thread and > cannot compel > > anyone to give that point a second thought. By writing about "some > wars > > starting from recklessness in the use of language", I was not > necessarily > > addressing your analysis, or your use of words. I was simply > referring to > > the orientation of > > say-it-the-way-you-like-it-don't-care-about-what-anyone-feels. > It's good > > that Anny Ballardini gave an example of a personal experience he > had when > > he > > used the expression "working as hard as a negro". For him, he > didn't mean > > any prejudice. But someone there saw something else in the analogy > and got > > offended. And what did Ballardini do next?One has to decide for > oneself how > > to manage one's language and situations that unfold from language > use in a > > world where people indeed see language as social semiotic. > > For me, this is where the thread ends. > > > > Regards. > > Obododimma. > > > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Mark Weiss > > > wrote: > > > > > It's always interesting to be the butt of sarcasm, but accuracy > also > > > counts. I was I thought pointing out the large gray areas, and > talking > > about > > > appropriateness (albeit with tongue wandering into cheek at > times). I > > doubt > > > that I've caused too many wars today. > > > > > > But your examples present some interesting issues. Policeman > became > > > obsolete as a generic term when women were allowed to join > police forces, > > > and other terms that cover both genders, like cops, police, or > police > > > officers, took over, because it would have been absurd to do > otherwise. > > But > > > we refer to policemen and policewomen when appropriate--it's > not > > > anachronistic to point out a policewoman to someone who needs > help, if > > > that's who's available. The word stewardess, which is the term I > think > > you > > > were searching for, became an issue because it had an > extraprofessional > > use > > > as fetish. That survives to an extent, but probably more than > the word > > > itself, which dates back to when cabin crews were exclusively > female (and > > > exclusively young--there were age discrimination suits about > that). > > Poetess > > > had largely fallen out of fashion by the time modern feminism > arrived, > > > relegated to designating only some women poets. And it's a good > thing > > that > > > it died--the attitude expressed by the word had become > poisonous. > > > > > > These are all questions of gender, in a language that has become > less and > > > less gendered over the past thousand years. It's not something > that > > speakers > > > of more gendered languages worry about too much, because to do > something > > > about it would require the restructuring of grammar. Airplane > crews are > > > still hotes and hotesses, actors are comedians and comediennes, > etc, and > > the > > > French sun is masculine and the moon feminine, while in German > it's the > > > reverse. So the battles are fought elsewhere. In modern English > there > > were > > > so few distinct masculine and feminine forms for human > occupations that > > most > > > of the work of remaking the language would involve the renaming > of the > > > beasts--stallion and mare, buck and doe, etc. Don't mistake > me--I'm > > plenty > > > aware of gender issues. I'm talking about the genders of > articles, nouns, > > > pronouns and adjectives. > > > > > > A travel article in today's New York Times web edition, "The > Proud > > Indians > > > of Chiapas," has attracted a lot of comments, mostly about the > use of the > > > word Indian. Many of the respondents pointed out that in > Chiapas, and > > Latin > > > America in general, the (recently) preferred term is "indigena" > (which is > > > both masculine and feminine, by the way). The objection noted to > Indian > > is > > > that it's inaccurate. In Spanish it's worse than that--Indio is > often a > > > derogatory term, and India in some places is a synonym for > whore. But the > > > article is written for gringos. In the US there's no unanimity > among > > (let's > > > call them) first peoples about what to call themselves. Native > American > > > doesn't seem to have caught on, though it appeared to for a > while, and > > > members of a lot of tribes prefer to be called American Indians > and don't > > > mind that their reservations are generically called Indian > reservations. > > In > > > the country at large Indian is nowhere near as derogatory as > Indio or > > India. > > > It apparently didn't raise eyebrows among the Times staffers. > > > > > > It's not up to me, it's up to the people so designated, who have > a long > > > history of persecution by whatever name. Not so the compound > noun > > Nigerian > > > scam. It's hard for me to believe that anyone uses it with > derogation of > > > Nigerians in general in mind, and I don't think there's a shred > of > > > antiNigerian sentiment in the US, where most people would be > hard put to > > say > > > what a Nigerian is. > > > > > > But ok, what about the name Nigeria--Blackland? Is that an > acceptable > > > inheritance from the colonialist past? > > > > > > If this thread continues, it would be nice if it involved > discussion > > rather > > > than verbal violence. The issues are interesting in themselves. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 02:53 AM 11/18/2008, Obododimma Oha wrote: > > > > > >> Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language > does n > > >> Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language > does not > > >> change, or should not be allowed to change. People who live in > different > > >> times have different tastes and different responses. One would > simply be > > >> anachronistic and socially unacceptable if one, for instance, > continues > > >> using the term "policeman" (instead of "police officer"), "air > hostess" > > >> (instead of "flight attendant" or "cabin crew") or "poetess" > (instead of > > >> simply "poet"). I am surprised that you think that filtering > out words > > >> processed as offensive in a given period is a waste of time. > Perhaps you > > are > > >> also saying that it is wrong for POETICS to rule that it does > not and > > would > > >> not publish flame messages. Perhaps some of us can now dispense > with > > >> communicative competence and facework. Little wonder some wars > in the > > world > > >> start from recklessness in the use of words. --- Obododimma > Oha. > > >> ________________________________ > > >> > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Obododimma Oha > > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > > Dept. of English > > University of Ibadan > > Nigeria > > > > & > > > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > > University of Ibadan > > > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > > +234 805 350 6604. > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:58:56 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List In-Reply-To: <9778b8630811241305h21878a7fte52a44308c77247a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Ryan Daley wrote: > Amy & Others, > > I still feel like there's been a misreading of what the term "Nigerian > email > scam" refers to: [very long prior discussion snipped] For heaven's sake, people, how hard is it to refer to 419 letters as just that, as Ryan suggests, or say something like "so-called 'Nigerian' email scams," with quotation marks around "Nigerian" to make it clear that one does not personally believe all Nigerian individuals, or the country of Nigeria as a whole, to be engaged in scamming? Little bitty scare quotes. So simple. So few pixels. And then we don't have to get into lengthily digressive discussions of ethnicity and religion as a way of justifying the original use of the term, yes? Gwyn, end-of-semester-exhausted, McVay ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:55:31 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit so what's new so many smarts folks create things about things they know nothing about On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:24:12 -0500 Vera Renczi writes: > I think it's funny that you are creating a coarse and yet you seem to > have > very limited knowledge of the subject, but perhaps that is how it's > done > when one teaches > > > > Colin smith > > Dorthy Trujillo Lusk > > Stephen Cain > > Margaret Christakos > > Daniel F Bradley > > Victor Coleman > > Christopher Dewdney > > > V > > > ** > > > On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:28 AM, John Cunningham > wrote: > > > Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's > face it, > > you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the > reception of > > language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, > right in > > your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august > halls > > most of Canada's language writers emanated. > > John Cunningham > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > Behalf Of George Bowering > > Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > > > > You're kidding! > > > > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > > > > > I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the > University of > > > Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track > down > > > Canadian > > > language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any > > > Canadian > > > language poets. Thanks. > > > John Cunningham > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > > welcome.html > > > > > > > G. Harry Bowering, OC > > Worth the trouble. > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: > 03/07/2008 > > 7:19 PM > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:24:33 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081124160155.070077e8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sorry, I'm a little busy right now, and when I saw spam scam thread, tuned out, but I want to chime in about So, my question is about the conscious cleansing of language--the sense of what's appropriate usage, and what merits the proverbial soaping. We don't have an official body, like the Academie Francaise, in charge of this (not that the Academie has been particularly successful of late--remember the circumflex?), and the dictionary-makers, who used to take it upon themselves to decide, have become increasingly democratic. Any such decision involves the ceding of linguistic choice. Which means it's a matter of case-by-case discussion, and case-by-case use. Unless we want the good old days of not very long ago, when books could be banned for officially unacceptable words. from Mark's last message. One is that "bugger" is to me akin to "faggot" and "gay" in its migration. It became a perjorative, less descriptive, term. But the first is that like race, so gender in language, and that I am still fascinated by the ways languages change vis a vis gender, but also etymologically and via pronunciation over time -- which is one of the things I try to make a subject and object in the confiteor project. The device in the first trilogy was the etymological synonyms of mystical keywords in a cross/halo around mystical keywords; in the second, terms go back to dualities in various ways, but also -- oh, the way that words for women have "grown up" from words for filth? -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:35:37 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I think you needn't worry just yet about my ambassadorial appointment. All I have to check is the web. Every site gave a similar impression, except one, which said that the Nigerian census has stopped asking questions about religion, for the reasons you mention, which means that there are no accurate figures. See, for example, http://www.uiowa.edu/~africart/toc/people/Hausa.html, http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/july/hausa.html. There are also numerous articles on the politicization and general unreliability of official census figures. Here's one: http://grandioseparlor.blogspot.com/2006/01/nigeria-2006-census.html. I have no pony in this race, and there are plenty of problems here in the US.. If I've been naive, so be it, though shouting doesn't constitute proof. It's difficult to imagine how anyone could read my rather nuanced statement as hostile. Is there anything about Nigeria that doesn't elicit a hair-trigger reaction from you? Do you speak for all Nigerians? In any case, a discussion of Nigerian demographics really has no business on this list. If you need to keep shouting, I can be reached backchannel. Mark At 04:41 PM 11/24/2008, you wrote: >Those figures are totally wrong and have been seriously contested in >Nigeria. The best place to go for such statistics is the relevant ministry >of the Nigerian government and not Wiki. We know the uses and abuses of >statistics! I don't know how those sources got their figures -- I suspect >they simply saw every person saying salaam alaikum or putting on the long >gown as "Muslim". Another point is that the Hausa are different from the >Fulani, but some people tend to conflate the two groups. It is actually the >Fulani (whose leader Othman dan Fodio conquered Hausaland in a jihad in the >precolonial era) that are predominantly Muslims. I am away from Nigeria at >the moment and cannot reach more reliable database. The point I had made in >my previous note -- and which is more important -- is that Hausa and Igbo -- >cannot be assigned to particular religions. It would be fallacious to say >"Muslim Hausa" when some Hausa people are not Muslims. As a matter of fact, it >is a form of assimilation that the non-Muslim Hausa in Nigeria have all >along tried to resist. The Igbo society, too, is multi-religious and not >necessarily "Christian". >You should also know that today, in Nigeria, terms like "Muslim Hausa" and >"Christian Igbo" are viewed (especially by the government) as inciting >ethno-religious prejudice and violence. We, in Nigerian, have had series of >religious crises and bloodshed, and would view any discourse that divides >the nation along religious lines as wicked and anti-Nigerian. > >Tomorrow, if you are appointed American Ambassador to Nigeria, Nigerians >would not treat you as their friend if in addressing them you use terms such >as "Muslim Hausa" and "Christian Igbo" and cite Wiki as your source! > >My best regards, Mark. >-- Obododimma. > >On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 9:59 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > I apologize for my spelling. Ibo was the standard spelling back then in the > > US media. Igbo and the half a dozen variant spellings I know mostly from > > Cuban sources, and I thought they referred to a different people. > > > > This from > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Nigeria#Religions_.282000_estimate.29, > > "Demographics of Nigeria," whose accuracy I of course can't vouch for: > > > > > > Religious Affiliation Among Major Ethnic Groups > > > > Source: > > http://www.worldchristiandatabase.org > > * Hausa: 25,900,527 (Muslims 99.90%, Christians 0.10%) > > * Yoruba: 22,921,473 (Christians 60.00%, Muslims 36.38%, Animists 3.00%, > > Non Religious 0.50%, Baha'is 0.07%, Atheists 0.05%) > > * Igbo: 22,926,340 (Christians 97.00%, Animists 2.00%, Non Religious > > 0.80%, Atheists 0.10%, Baha'is 0.10%) > > > > I've left out the rest of the table. If you have better sources, I'd be > > happy to learn. I'm of course aware that religion was used to manipulate > > international opinion during the war. > > > > I learn from others all the time, usually through civil discussion. Like > > most of us, it's not the first time that I've thought about these issues, > > and what I use of the language has changed, in part because of input from > > others. I remain unconvinced in this instance. I don't think, as you > > suggest, that that's because of a character flaw. > > > > I'm content to let this discussion end, but I'm not content to be insulted. > > If you want to have at me again, please take it backchannel. Front or > > backchannel, you might want to read your posts before sending them. > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > At 01:52 PM 11/24/2008, you wrote: > > > >> I didn't want to come into this debate, but it seems to me that Mark Weiss > >> really has an orientation in language use that he thinks is entirely > >> healthy > >> and cannot accommodate to others. Quite unfortunate. I thought that, by > >> referring to his age, he should be helping us (who are supposedly younger) > >> to be a little more cautious in our use of words. I was amazed when I came > >> across terms such as "Moslem Hausa" and "Christian Ibo" in his post that I > >> am responding to. Shocking! Maybe he doesn't know that millions of Hausa > >> people are Christians! And maybe he doesn't know that some Igbo (not > >> "Ibo") > >> people are Muslims (one of my cousins is!), adherents of African > >> Traditional > >> Religion, Eckists, Guru Maharajists, etc. How then can he characterize a > >> whole ethnic group like the Hausa as being Muslim? Yes, it is true that > >> many > >> Hausa people are Muslims, but that does not make the whole group Muslim. I > >> am afraid that in using the term, Mark has become a victim of the > >> political > >> rhetoric that tries to use religion as shibboleth. It is such shibboleth > >> that Ojukwu's war rhetoric tried to arm itself with, to attract > >> international Christian sympathy during the war. I am Igbo myself and did > >> support the Biafran cause, but now, as somebody with a PhD in Stylistics > >> (specifically in War Rhetoric and a criminologist), I can, without > >> appearing > >> disloyal to Biafra, tell what Ojukwu was trying to do when he used the > >> terms > >> "Muslim Hausa Fulani" or "Islamic North". It would be a pity if the > >> politician is now more clever than the poet the vates, the seer, the > >> everything! But Mark is not a politician and should know the cost of words > >> in the marketplace of meaning making.Mark, please, don't take offence at > >> this: think seriously about your tendency to stick to your views, and > >> refusal to welcome the fact that you could learn from another person!Be > >> well, poet. > >> Obododimma. > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Mark Weiss > >> wrote: > >> > >> > I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which might > >> > account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might want to > >> avoid > >> > condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our vulnerability?") and > >> > extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations of views you disagree > >> > with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not a flame war, and there's > >> no > >> > need to light fires. > >> > > >> > Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is the > >> essence > >> > of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and refers to a > >> group > >> > with a long history of discrimination, characterizing it in terms that > >> have > >> > caused enormous misery. If it were a more recent usage we most of us > >> would > >> > try to reform it out of existence, but the word is so deeply embedded in > >> the > >> > language that it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with the > >> > Roma, though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's even harder > >> to > >> > imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a > >> different > >> > order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this discussion, by the > >> > way. Its origin is neither racist nor anti-Nigerian, and its use is > >> limited > >> > denotatively and hasn't bled, and isn't likely to, into attitudes > >> towards > >> > Nigerians in general. Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds > >> it > >> > offensive, it remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. > >> > > >> > Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree, but > >> > discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a writers' > >> > list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us separate the > >> > apples and oranges. > >> > > >> > Mark > >> > > >> > PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age more > >> > richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've never been > >> > there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those attitudes. When I > >> was in > >> > high school a Nigerian exchange student lived with us for a few months. > >> We > >> > became good friends. His father was head master of a very English-style > >> > boarding school, purportedly the most prestigious in the country, and > >> Aloy > >> > regaled me with stories of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke > >> > Latin, which I envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer > >> > bottle with his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the > >> Biafra > >> > war, like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, > >> when > >> > separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative > >> > convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem Hausa > >> of > >> > the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns, though most of > >> the > >> > resources and money were in the south. Much of the US support for Biafra > >> > was, I think, motivated by a sense that the Christian Ibo were like > >> "us." > >> > Which is not to negate the considerable pain that caused the Biafrans to > >> > attempt to secede. New York's WBAI reported the bombings and starvation > >> by > >> > live radio feeds. It was horrific--over a million people died. Since > >> then > >> > I've followed the often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm aware > >> can't > >> > be the whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the short > >> end. > >> > > >> > Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book "Walking," which > >> I'm > >> > proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my imagined > >> Nigeria. > >> > > >> > None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the > >> > limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. > >> > > >> > > >> > At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: > >> > > >> >> Mark, > >> >> > >> >> Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this listserv, > >> have > >> >> joined a community of writers. Self righteous indignation as a > >> response to > >> >> someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of race > >> >> doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum. > >> >> > >> >> As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other members, > >> >> even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other member's > >> concerns? > >> >> Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language works, esp > >> when > >> >> we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is to > >> >> express his consternation over the use of a term within this community? > >> Do > >> >> we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members? > >> >> > >> >> You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist > >> >> implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that > >> the > >> >> usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did > >> not > >> >> warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. > >> >> > >> >> It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is "unintentional" or not > >> >> aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business of > >> language,' > >> >> regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it simply > >> >> shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is exactly > >> the > >> >> abstracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets us > >> into > >> >> all manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being > >> >> "misunderstood." > >> >> > >> >> Be well, > >> >> > >> >> Amy > >> >> > >> >> _______ > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Recent work > >> >> > >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Amy's Alias > >> >> > >> >> http://amyking.org/ > >> >> > >> >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> >> Amy: > >> >> > >> >> Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. > >> >> Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we do. > >> >> > >> >> Mark > >> >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: > >> >> From: amy king > >> >> Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List > >> >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> >> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM > >> >> > >> >> From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another > >> list > >> >> member > >> >> found problematic. The latter said so. > >> >> > >> >> Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote > >> >> strains > >> >> of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions > >> >> weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & > >> >> here's a list. > >> >> > >> >> Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic > >> and > >> >> noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. > >> >> > >> >> The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be > >> ... > >> >> worth > >> >> ignoring. > >> >> In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same > >> >> institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying > >> >> sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to > >> calls > >> >> for > >> >> sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were > >> >> unaware > >> >> of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for > >> sensitivity > >> >> should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being > >> human > >> >> and > >> >> possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls > >> being > >> >> seen > >> >> as > >> >> the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellectual > >> >> prowess. > >> >> > >> >> This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the > >> >> ensuing > >> >> discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist > >> >> sentiment > >> >> and > >> >> the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the implications > >> of > >> >> some > >> >> terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out > >> >> something > >> >> we've said that could be offensive. > >> >> > >> >> Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm still > >> >> trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the > >> implications > >> >> of my > >> >> actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some of > >> what > >> >> Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: > >> >> > >> >> An excerpt: > >> >> > >> >> "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being > >> >> able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the > >> >> street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not > >> >> possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial > >> >> minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that > >> >> over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have > >> >> most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as > >> >> it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list > >> >> is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely > >> >> heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." > >> >> > >> >> and > >> >> > >> >> "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was > >> >> operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After > >> >> the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I > >> >> fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, > >> >> the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to > >> >> outweigh the benefits." > >> >> > >> >> Please read the entire note here: > >> >> > >> http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html > >> >> > >> >> and > >> >> > >> >> "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he > >> >> found > >> >> close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential > >> >> through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this > >> >> disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv > >> >> reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the > >> >> Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally > >> >> disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim > >> >> desired. > >> >> > >> >> Such is often the case with almost all message boards > >> >> and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism > >> >> and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants > >> >> on the vast majority of message boards." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs-and-listservs.html > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Be well, > >> >> > >> >> Amy > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______ > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Recent work > >> >> > >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Amy's Alias > >> >> > >> >> http://amyking.org/ > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ================================== > >> >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> >> guidelines > >> >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ================================== > >> >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> >> guidelines > >> >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ================================== > >> >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> >> > >> > > >> > ================================== > >> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Obododimma Oha > >> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > >> Dept. of English > >> University of Ibadan > >> Nigeria > >> > >> & > >> > >> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > >> University of Ibadan > >> > >> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > >> +234 805 350 6604. > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > >-- >Obododimma Oha >Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >Dept. of English >University of Ibadan >Nigeria > >& > >Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >University of Ibadan > >Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 04:38:16 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081124160155.070077e8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well, Mark, I don't think it is reducible to that kind of "case-by-case" problematic. To push it to that corner is to still wrestle to prove how difficult it is to drop that type of language. As a university teacher, I do not have problem with that, since I know that, in order to publish my articles in academic journals, I must avoid any form of language that communicates prejudice (either directly or indirectly). Being able to recognize which aspect of my language in the article expresses such prejudice is part of the communicative skills expected of me as a researcher and one trying to communicate knowledge: I am required to have the interests and preferences of my readers in mind! I am required to remember that my readers are not mere fiction! Moreover, filtering out offensive language in one's writing is one of the things taught in composition and research classes in recent times. As a teacher of research methods in my department in Ibadan, I always discuss that aspect at length with my students (as well as the implied logic in one's diction). One book that has discussed that communicative aspect of research, which my students and I love using, is Real World Research by Colin Robson, a fine text published by Blackwell. Regards. Obododimma. On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 10:27 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I'm very tired of this, but I do appreciate your more reasonable tone. > > One might have hoped that a discussion like this would lead, as I think > Steve Vincent attempted, to a broader discussion of the remnants of > difficult histories that all languages retain. What you or I or the list > think about Nigerian scam will have little influence on broader usage. It's > different in kind, I think, from current use of the word arab in the US, > which is far more toxic than Nigerian scam and far more globalized, and also > not something we can conveniently drop, as I suspect that with the passage > of time Nigerian scam will be. > > So that's where my question, to myself as well as to the discussion at > large, leads. OK, arab can't be dropped from usage because it's what a large > number of people call themselves, and the obloquy attached to it will pass > away as circumstances change, hopefully in our lifetimes. But what about > Steve's example, or the ones I mentioned, which for most of us don't carry > over to a broader prejudice? What about words like "bugger," originally > Bulgar? We cleanse the language, unconsciously, all the time--Dutch treat is > the sole remnant in common use of a large amount of nastiness from 17th > Century Anglo-Dutch wars. > > So, my question is about the conscious cleansing of language--the sense of > what's appropriate usage, and what merits the proverbial soaping. We don't > have an official body, like the Academie Francaise, in charge of this (not > that the Academie has been particularly successful of late--remember the > circumflex?), and the dictionary-makers, who used to take it upon themselves > to decide, have become increasingly democratic. Any such decision involves > the ceding of linguistic choice. Which means it's a matter of case-by-case > discussion, and case-by-case use. Unless we want the good old days of not > very long ago, when books could be banned for officially unacceptable words. > > Peace. I really do have other things to do. > > Mark > > > At 03:59 PM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: > >> Mark, >> >> I'm writing as a member of this listserv community who is slightly >> appalled and very bewildered by the lack of care & concern evidenced sent in >> a number of replies to Oha. >> >> And yes, I have indeed thought much of Oha's request and analyzed my >> experience with the term, which is limited too. You might recall that my >> initial response to Oha was one of surprise, apology, and a note to say that >> I hadn't thought of the implications of using the term. >> >> Since then, my conclusion is that a) all email scams do not originate in >> Nigeria, but in fact, originate from everywhere, including the U.S., b) I >> don't refer to email scams that originate from elsewhere as "British Scams" >> or "American scams", and c) isn't it simply easier, and more respectful as >> per Oha's request, to refer to these scams as "email scams", both here in >> this community and elsewhere? How hard is it to acknowledge the risk, make >> the switch, and let Oha know his note made me think? Why must he receive >> belligerence? I'm amazed at his consistent grace and civility through all >> of this. >> >> My sense is, after much discussion with my students about the topic, that >> the average American doesn't know much about Nigeria or Nigerian culture, >> myself included. So why would I risk perpetuating the negativity that goes >> with calling email scams, "Nigerian scams?" Similarly, many Americans >> didn't have much reference when they heard the word "Arab." Post 9/11, >> we've got "Arab terrorists," which has pretty much become synonymous with >> "Arabs" in our culture now (of course, generally speaking), and look at the >> negativity that term generates. >> >> Are all terrorists "Arab"? Are all Arabs "terrorists"? Are all email >> scams perpetuated by "Nigerians?" Are all Nigerians email scammers? When >> I find it difficult to come up with much to say about Nigeria, I don't want >> my limited vocabulary to be about Nigerian scams after all, nor do I want to >> reinforce that vocabulary elsewhere. This was no great leap nor grave >> concession. Moreover, what grieves me, again, are the resistances to the >> validity of Oha's request sent in the face of what could only have been a >> difficult one to make. And now, the refusal to acknowledge that this list >> has a history of such resistance--and that we may be carrying on tradition. >> >> Be well, >> >> Amy >> >> _______ >> >> >> Recent work >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> Amy's Alias >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Mark Weiss >> wrote: >> >> > I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which might >> > account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might want to >> avoid >> > condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our vulnerability?") >> and >> > extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations of views you disagree >> > with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not a flame war, and >> there's no >> > need to light fires. >> > >> > Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is >> the essence >> > of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and refers to a >> group >> > with a long history of discrimination, characterizing it in terms that >> have >> > caused enormous misery. If it were a more recent usage we most of us >> would >> > try to reform it out of existence, but the word is so deeply embedded in >> the >> > language that it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with >> the >> > Roma, though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's >> even harder to >> > imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a >> different >> > order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this discussion, by >> the >> > way. Its origin is neither racist nor anti-Nigerian, and its use is >> limited >> > denotatively and hasn't bled, and isn't likely to, into attitudes >> towards >> > Nigerians in general. Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds >> it >> > offensive, it remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. >> > >> > Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree, but >> > discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a >> writers' >> > list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us separate the >> > apples and oranges. >> > >> > Mark >> > >> > PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age more >> > richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've never >> been >> > there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those attitudes. When I >> was in >> > high school a Nigerian exchange student lived with us for a few months. >> We >> > became good friends. His father was head master of a very English-style >> > boarding school, purportedly the most prestigious in the country, and >> Aloy >> > regaled me with stories of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke >> > Latin, which I envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer >> > bottle with his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the >> Biafra >> > war, like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, >> when >> > separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative >> > convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem Hausa >> of >> > the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns, though most of >> the >> > resources and money were in the south. Much of the US support for Biafra >> > was, I think, motivated by a sense that the Christian Ibo were like >> "us." >> > Which is not to negate the considerable pain that caused the Biafrans to >> > attempt to secede. New York's WBAI reported the bombings and >> starvation by >> > live radio feeds. It was horrific--over a million people died. Since >> then >> > I've followed the often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm >> aware can't >> > be the whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the short >> end. >> > >> > Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book >> "Walking," which I'm >> > proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my imagined >> Nigeria. >> > >> > None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the >> > limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. >> > >> > >> > At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: >> > >> >> Mark, >> >> >> >> Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this >> listserv, have >> >> joined a community of writers. Self righteous indignation as a >> response to >> >> someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of >> race >> >> doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum. >> >> >> >> As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other >> members, >> >> even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other member's >> concerns? >> >> Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language works, esp >> when >> >> we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is >> to >> >> express his consternation over the use of a term within this >> community? Do >> >> we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members? >> >> >> >> You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist >> >> implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that >> the >> >> usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did >> not >> >> warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. >> >> >> >> It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is >> "unintentional" or not >> >> aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business of >> language,' >> >> regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it >> simply >> >> shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is >> exactly the >> >> abstracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets >> us into >> >> all manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being >> >> "misunderstood." >> >> >> >> Be well, >> >> >> >> Amy >> >> >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: >> >> Amy: >> >> >> >> Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. >> >> Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we >> do. >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: >> >> From: amy king >> >> Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List >> >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM >> >> >> >> From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another >> list >> >> member >> >> found problematic. The latter said so. >> >> >> >> Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote >> >> strains >> >> of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my >> intentions >> >> weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms >> exist & >> >> here's a list. >> >> >> >> Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic >> and >> >> noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. >> >> >> >> The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be >> ... >> >> worth >> >> ignoring. >> >> In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those >> same >> >> institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its >> underlying >> >> sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to >> calls >> >> for >> >> sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or >> were >> >> unaware >> >> of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for >> sensitivity >> >> should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being >> human >> >> and >> >> possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls >> being >> >> seen >> >> as >> >> the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his >> intellectual >> >> prowess. >> >> >> >> This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the >> >> ensuing >> >> discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist >> >> sentiment >> >> and >> >> the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the >> implications of >> >> some >> >> terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out >> >> something >> >> we've said that could be offensive. >> >> >> >> Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm >> still >> >> trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the >> implications >> >> of my >> >> actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some >> of what >> >> Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: >> >> >> >> An excerpt: >> >> >> >> "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of >> being >> >> able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon >> on the >> >> street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is >> not >> >> possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial >> >> minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that >> >> over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have >> >> most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, >> as >> >> it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics >> list >> >> is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely >> >> heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted >> down." >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he >> was >> >> operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. >> After >> >> the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I >> >> fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For >> me, >> >> the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to >> >> outweigh the benefits." >> >> >> >> Please read the entire note here: >> >> >> http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact >> that he >> >> found >> >> close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential >> >> through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this >> >> disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of >> Listserv >> >> reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the >> >> Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally >> >> disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim >> >> desired. >> >> >> >> Such is often the case with almost all message boards >> >> and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism >> >> and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants >> >> on the vast majority of message boards." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs-and-listservs.html >> >> >> >> >> >> Be well, >> >> >> >> Amy >> >> >> >> >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> >> guidelines >> >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> >> guidelines >> >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> > >> > ================================== >> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Obododimma Oha >> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >> Dept. of English >> University of Ibadan >> Nigeria >> >> & >> >> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >> University of Ibadan >> >> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >> +234 805 350 6604. >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:46:44 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Heat Strings posts In-Reply-To: 4924AB9E.80906@starve.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Recently on the Heat Strings blog -- The Ends of the Ends of the Alphabets Modernist Studies 2008 Who Speaks for Whom? > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Study the fine art of coming apart." --Jerry W. Ward, Jr. Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 06:14:17 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: blacksox@ATT.NET Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I guess I held out a hope that poets belong to a more elite group of humans. Sensitivity to the world around us, and other peoples feelings, would matter more to poets because we are more receptive than the average person. Aren't we? Well maybe this Utopian belief is wrong, but you can still hope. In a real world that allows team mascot names like, Redskins, and Indians, do we all become desensitized to language. labeling, and name calling. Do sayings infuence our lack of respect for these ethnic groups? Indian Giver, Going Dutch, are a couple examples of these.. I still hope not. Peace Russ Golata ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:31:39 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Andrew Jones Subject: RePost MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The Zeurotic Manifesto http://andrewjjones.blogspot.com/2008/11/repost.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 09:36:51 -0500 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Philip Metres Subject: new on Behind the Lines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New on http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com "Genitalia=Commerce and Enterprise"/Allen Ginsberg's Annotations to "The Waste Land" Poet Suheir Hammad on her new film, "Salt of This ... You Don't Know Dick Kafka is Alive and Well ("Held at Einab Junction: ... "In Harm's Way" Looks at the Israel/Palestine Conf... from "The Cure at Troy" by Seamus Heaney/Thinking ... Public Rally for Marriage Equality Two Takes on Studs Terkel (R.I.P.), plus audio... Phil Donahue's Body of War Come Together: Imagine Peace (An Anthology of Peac... Women of Liberia: Fighting for Peace Nas' "Black President" and "Election Night"/"Yes W... Derek Walcott, on Poetry and Isolation "Black Watch" by Gregory Burke from Studio 360 Translated By: Shaindel Beers talking with Philip ... Why Supporters of Palestinian Rights Worry about t... "On 24th and South, Philadelphia" from To See the ... Yes We Did Bruce Springsteen and Obama in Cleveland An Open Letter to Barack Obama from Ralph Nader If Obama Loses the Election, I'll Blame the Cathol... Cockroaches and Barack Obama and Lucille Clifton's... Thanks, Rick Sanchez/Shame on McCain and the Slur ... A Reading by Fady Joudah & etc., Philip Metres Associate Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 http://www.philipmetres.com http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 05:10:20 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: beastly for your nedification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some beastly music for your nedification: http://vispo.com/arteroids/sounds/arteroidsIDsong2.mp3 http://vispo.com/arteroids/sounds/arteroidsIDsong.mp3 Needs fairly high volume. You can create beoootiful muzic like this yourself in arteroids at http://vispo.com/arteroids/arteroids.htm . When you come to the screen where you are asked to input an ID, put one finger of your left hand on the s key, and a finger of your right hand on the backspace key. Now press the s and backspace keys percussively. Experiment with the lament of the doomed arteroids. The sounds here are the crys of dying arteroids; in the arteroids game, one of the 19 sounds is played when you dispatch an arteroid with the language gun. I recorded the sounds; they're all my voice. They sound rather beastly, though, partly because they are randomly pitch-shifted anywhere from normal pitch to 4 octaves lower than normal. And partly because I can't help it. Have I found my voice? ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 09:38:47 -0500 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Philip Metres Subject: Come Together: Imagine Peace (the anthology of peace poetry) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This just in/out: COME TOGETHER: IMAGINE PEACE http://www.amazon.com= /Come-Together-Imagine-Peace-Poems/dp/1933964227 Poetry. Anthology. E= dited by Ann Smith, Larry Smith, and Philip Metres. With an Introduction= by Philip Metres. A grand collection of poetry (seventy poets both past= and contemporary) written against war and for peace: poems that sustain= us with their vision. = "Peace poetry is larger than a moral injunction against war; it is an = articulation of the expanse, the horizon where we might come together. T= o adapt a line by the Sufi poet Rumi: beyond the realm of good and evil,= there is a field." --from the Introduction by Philip Metres. = 100 poets voice their concern and vision for peace. = Poems of Witness & Elegy, Exhortation & Action, Reconciliation, Shared= Humanity, Wildness & Home, Ritual & Vigil, Meditation & Prayer. = Precedents: Sappho, Whitman, Dickinson, Cavafy, Millay, Patchen, Rexro= th, Shapiro, Lowell, Creeley, Rukeyser, Ginsberg, Levertov, Lorde, Staff= ord, Jordan, Amichai, Darwish Contemporaries: Abinader, Ali, Bass, Be= rry, Bauer, Berrigan, Bly, Bodhr=E1n, Bradley, Brazaitis, Bright, Bryner= , Budbill, Cervine, Charara, Cording, Cone, Crooker, Daniels, di Prima, = Davis, Dougherty, Ellis, Espada, Estes, Ferlinghetti, Forch=E9, Frost, G= ibson, Gundy, Gilberg, Habra, Hague, Hamill, Harter, Hassler, Haven, Hey= en, Hirshfield, Hughes, Joudah, Jensen, Karmin, Kendig, Komunyakaa, Kova= cik, Kryss, Krysl, LaFemina, Landis, Leslie, Lifshin, Loden, Lovin, Luca= s, McCallum, McGuane, Machan, McQuaid, Meek, Metres, Miltner, Montgomery= , Norman, Nye, Pankey, Pendarvis, Pinsky, Porterfield, Prevost, Ragain, = Rashid, Rich, Roffman, Rosen, Ross, Rusk, Salinger, Sanders, Seltzer, Sc= hneider, Shabtai, Shannon, Sheffield, Shipley, Shomer, Silano, Sklar, Sm= ith, Snyder, Spahr, Sydlik, Szymborska, Trommer, Twichell, Volkmer, Wate= rs, Weems, Wilson, Zale Philip Metres Associate Professor Departm= ent of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University = Heights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 ht= tp://www.philipmetres.com http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:24:06 -0800 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: THIS ONE - THIS IS IT - RACE, DAVID, NIGERIA - FINSIHEDDDDDDDDDDDD In-Reply-To: <75acdde00811241658s692ecbc5lb25761de11180c73@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First off, I really hate it when people demonstrate their level of ineptitude by being articulate while saying nothing. Certainly nothing new. Relativity is what it is - and it also means nothing has value. Please, folks. I remember some time ago when someone made the comment that kids in India working for pennies were earning money for their families. Well, I didn't respond as I had wanted to...but what he said was pure ignorance. Now, it would have been easier for me to have sat down with this gentleman, demonstrated face-to-face just how ignorant he was, but then...see...I don't have the patience to sit and write the obvious. And I know, unlike him. You can use language, this list as a proving ground, but idiocy is that. How articulate can you be, when you don't have anything (interesting, or useful, or all encompassing factual) to say. The world is big folks! This little bubble is gonna break and unlike t= he economy I hope some of you don't find yourself redundant. Secondly, to share: "I am also hurt when I notice how such poor image is being constructed and amplified by some people, simply because they are outside that society." Why people found it necessary to get into the diatribes they did baffles me. What kind of arrogance and lack of compassion do some of us have. Shame! I live in China, my wife, Czech, has worked as a reported as had to stop writing for an important newspaper in her home country, and I have to leave because I got big spreads in big journals...am gonna say something true. Have a Tibetan friend who while on invite to Italy for a reading made a break to Austra (and now lives in a refugee camp there), have known people who are willing to die for the right to speak. Why you waste your time alienating people and debating for the sake of debate sickens me!=A0 What about mutual nourishment, something a friend, Diran Adebayo, also a Nigerian, once said to me. AND, I witnessed, a gang-up...perpetrated, and let's say it, by white folks who simply neither know or care! If we can use all those terms that re-inscribe, all those ugly words you have decided no longer hurt, then hell, white folks! And as a cultural narrative, what does this discourse ar= ticulate consciously or unconsciously! Alex=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:51:31 -0800 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Literary Nigeria sans 'scam' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://stephenvincent.net/blog/?p=3D573 To take the current List eye and angst off the 'scam' trigger, this blog co= nnection goes to my account - including pictures -=A0 of last year's Septem= ber Christopher Okigbo Conference at Harvard and Boston Universities - an e= vent that included poets, playwrights and novelists, and some of us who tau= ght at Universities in Nigeria (as critics or writers).=A0 (Wole Soyinka, C= hinua Achebe, and Chimanda Adichi (sp?) were among the 'stars'. An incredib= ly strong event, partly because it brought a focus back on the postions and= roles of Nigerian and other African writers on the Nigerian-Biafran Civil = War.=20 I thought this 'diasportic' glimpse of Nigeria might help eliminate the Int= ernet blip 'scam' attention away from a country that offers so much (great = and difficult) looked at from a much different, larger scope. Stephen V =A0http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:43:44 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Gottlieb, Michael" Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree. =20 Unless you are including Alan Davies, someone has to be kidding. --- On Sun, 11/23/08, George Bowering wrote: From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Sunday, November 23, 2008, 9:37 PM You're kidding! On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of > Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down =3D20 > Canadian > language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any =3D20 > Canadian > language poets. Thanks. > John Cunningham=20 -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of POETICS automatic digest system Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:00 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: [LIKELY JUNK]POETICS Digest - 23 Nov 2008 to 24 Nov 2008 (#2008-312) There are 42 messages totalling 5935 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" (8) 2. Canadian language writers/poets (10) 3. Discussions of Race and the Poetics List (13) 4. overrun 5. Anglo-Saxon Riddle-Poem translations and illustrations on nycbigcitylit.com, from Bertha Rogers 6. Literary Buffalo Newsletter 11.24.08-11.30.08 7. Self-promotion - Visual Poetry and more... Alexander Jorgensen 8. What we're called, was Re: David (2) 9. Bonfire Broadside--Alice Notley 10. 3 new titles from Burning Deck 11. L&BH Radio Hour and Open Mic Nov. 25 12. Millennium-3 preview: Sousandrade 13. Spring 2008 Readings, Columbia College Chicago =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:01:26 -0800 From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" I would take reflection as "generative" in that way. It is producing something. I would argue that if it produced indifference, though, it's not really generative of anything. Thanks for the clarification. Troy ________________________________ From: Jim Andrews To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 5:27:37 PM Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" > Seems to me that art, to be art, is necessarily generative. If it doesn't stimulate others to create, it's of no real value to anyone other than the person who made it. Which means it really isn't art. All art is social. When some people call art 'generative', they mean it stimulates them to write or whatever. I take it that's your usage, Troy. But the term 'generative art' has another meaning. It refers to a type of art where the work of art, itself, generates not a response in the audience but the visible or audible (or whatever) manifestation of the viewed work of art. So, typically, this sort of work of art is an executable, digital work, an app, a program, though it needn't be. Could be an analog machine or perhaps, on a more conceptual level, injunctions to do this or that. Though, in that case, the piece itself is not really doing the 'generation' and it probably wouldn't be of much interest to people interested in 'generative art'. Just to clarify the term. On another note. A work could stimulate others to reflect. That needn't be stimulating them to create. Would that be 'generative' in your sense? Is that of value? If so, and it is not generative, then not all art is generative in your sense. ja http://vispo.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:37:53 -0800 From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets You're kidding! On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of > Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down =20 > Canadian > language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any =20 > Canadian > language poets. Thanks. > John Cunningham > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > welcome.html > G. Harry Bowering, OC Worth the trouble. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:02:38 -0800 From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" Pettiness and purposefully missing the point are also not generative. Troy ________________________________ From: Halvard Johnson To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:57:56 AM Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" Damn! There go Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Stravinsky et al., none of whom have stimulated me to compose music. Oops, there go Rembrandt, Picasso, and a whole bunch of others. Hal You have no enemies in this folder. Halvard Johnson =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Nov 23, 2008, at 12:52 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Seems to me that art, to be art, is necessarily generative. If it doesn't stimulate others to create, it's of no real value to anyone other than the person who made it. Which means it really isn't art. All art is social. >=20 > Troy Camplin >=20 >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:37:50 PM > Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" >=20 > Jim, >=20 > You are right. Generative art proliferates more easily. But I like the idea > of "concept' in "conceptual." Doesn't "generative" imply more a formula, an > algorithm? You would know that better, but even an algorithm may have a not > openly spelled out idea, concept behind it. >=20 > Walter Benjamin's mechanical reproduction is problematic. When he was > applying that term to photography, photographs were extremely difficult to > take, took a lot of time and exposure and the transformation from reflected > light to image was fragile and full of 'mistakes." That's what makes those > photographs sp powerful. did you read my essay *The Peripheral space of > photography*? >=20 > Ciao, >=20 > Murat >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: >=20 >> Though our points of view are converging, I should also try to clarify the >>> opposite point I am making: when concepual, particularly of the procedural >>> kind, explodes into unmanagable profileration when it becomes actualized. >>> In >>> that way, the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened. >>>=20 >>=20 >> the procedural doesn't necessarily involve the sort of proliferation you >> mention, of course. >>=20 >> for instance, http://vispo.com/StirFryTexts/spastext.html or >> http://vispo.com/arteroids >>=20 >> the generative, on the other hand, is more often associated with >> proliferation. not always, though. 'generative art' is a whole field. >> dbCinema is generative. >>=20 >> you say "the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened" via proliferation. >> sometimes. but sometimes proliferation is part of the concept. the work of >> art in the age of mechanical reproduction. proliferation. spamification. >> that still doesn't tell us whether it's interesting or not. there just are >> no recipes for interesting art. no algorithms that will do it every time. >> some algorithms that will do it from time to time. but not all the time. >> like there is no algorithm that will always be able to tell if any given >> program will halt. >>=20 >> "though I suppose it's easy to miss the conceptual dimension so some >>> artists >>> like to focus attention on it by the absence of other dimensions. In a >>> sense, this is a pop approach." >>>=20 >>> Well, pop can be a powerful art form. >>>=20 >>=20 >> sure. >>=20 >> "Something. It's just easier to pretend to the conceptual than it is to >>> some >>> other types of work where the chops are not so easily fakable." >>>=20 >>> In my recent conversation with Chris Funhouser, he was telling me how hard >>> it was to create some of his "flash"? pieces. They are gorgeous, evocative >>> to watch. on the other hand, it is a blessing that they are hard to >>> actualize. They are a limited number of them. >>>=20 >>=20 >> true. >>=20 >>=20 >> ja >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>=20 >=20 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 04:35:12 -0800 From: amy king Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets For starters (& debatable):=3DA0=3D20 Christian Bok bpnichol Steve Mccaffery Karen Mac Cormack Scott Pound Meredith Quartermain Lisa Robertson Try going through the EPC page for more info/poets:=3DA0=3D20 http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/epc.html Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Sun, 11/23/08, George Bowering wrote: From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Sunday, November 23, 2008, 9:37 PM You're kidding! On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of > Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down =3D20 > Canadian > language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any =3D20 > Canadian > language poets. Thanks. > John Cunningham =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A =20 =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 22:24:53 -0800 From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" > You are right. Generative art proliferates more easily. But I like the > idea > of "concept' in "conceptual." Doesn't "generative" imply more a formula, > an > algorithm? You would know that better, but even an algorithm may have a > not > openly spelled out idea, concept behind it. 'algorithm' is the 'natural selection' of our time. by that i mean the two terms have both been widely misunderstood. Widely. 'algorithm' is misunderstood because the theory of computation is more than misunderstood--it's unknown and somewhat non-intuitive in its results. it gives us some of the clearest statements we have about what computers can and can't do, i.e., it gives us our clearest statements about what algorithms can and cannot accomplish. The focus of the birth of computing itself was on what computers *cannot* do. Turing solved a famous math problem posed by Hilbert called the Entscheidungsproblem, a problem to decide whether it is theoretically possible to build a machine that will prove all math theorems. After understanding Godel's work, Turing understood=20 that the answer to this question must be 'no'. But in order to prove it, he=20 had to devise a machine that could execute any conceivable, finite=20 algorithm, and then show that there are some true theorems this machine=20 cannot prove. Thus was born the 'Turing machine', Turing's abstraction, the=20 most powerful but simple machine known to humanity. It was devised mainly to=20 help prove the Entscheidungsproblem, not to 'invent computers'. Turing=20 invented the modern notion of what a computer is in order to prove there are=20 some things such machines cannot do. beautiful, eh? However, while there are things such machines cannot do, there is no real=20 evidence that we can do them either. Fundamentally, a Turing machine is a=20 machine that can execute any conceivable, finite algorithm. There is no good=20 evidence that there exist thought processes of which we are capable and=20 computers are not. So, Murat, while algorithms are 'formulas', of a sort, they can get quite=20 sophisticated with a few million lines of code. The power of the simple=20 algorithm and a machine that can make decisions has yet to be really widely=20 understood. At first glance, computers look like machines that are merely=20 mechanical, like any other machine, and pose no serious resemblance to the=20 processes of thought. But the fundamental operations of the computer are like the atomic scale of thought. ja http://vispo.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 04:59:45 -0800 From: amy king Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another list m=3D ember found problematic.=3DA0 The latter said so. Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote stra=3D ins of resistance -- i.e.=3DA0 the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions w=3D eren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & here's a =3D list.=3DA0=3D20 Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic and =3D noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms.=3DA0=3D20 The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be ... wo=3D rth ignoring.=3DA0=3D20 In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same ins=3D titutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying sentim=3D ents (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to calls for sens=3D itivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were unaware of=3D how our language use might be problematic.=3DA0 Such calls for sensitivity s=3D hould certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being human an=3D d possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being =3D seen as the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellec=3D tual prowess.=3DA0=3D20 This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the ensui=3D ng discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist senti=3D ment and the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the implica=3D tions of some terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone p=3D oints out something we've said that could be offensive.=3DA0=3D20 Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something.=3DA0 I'm = still tr=3D ying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the implications of m=3D y actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror.=3DA0 Take a peek at some of w=3D hat Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: An excerpt: "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." and=3D20 "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to outweigh the benefits." Please read the entire note here: http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html and "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he found close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim desired. Such is often the case with almost all message boards and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants on the vast majority of message boards." http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs- and=3D -listservs.html Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A =20 =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 07:28:28 -0600 From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's face it, you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the reception of language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, right in your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august halls most of Canada's language writers emanated. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of George Bowering Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets You're kidding! On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of > Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down =20 > Canadian > language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any =20 > Canadian > language poets. Thanks. > John Cunningham > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > welcome.html > G. Harry Bowering, OC Worth the trouble. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 03/07/2008 7:19 PM =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 05:42:25 -0800 From: { brad brace } Subject: overrun a small free photo-book of withdrawn 12hr images http://216.70.118.235/overrun.pdf (6.6 mb) /:b =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:58:07 -0500 From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List Amy: Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language.=20 Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we do. Mark At 07:59 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: > From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that=20 > another list member found problematic. The latter said so. > >Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with=20 >rote strains of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality,=20 >my intentions weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist=20 >terms exist & here's a list. > >Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is=20 >problematic and noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. > >The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be=20 >... worth ignoring. >In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those=20 >same institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its=20 >underlying sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should=20 >be open to calls for sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply=20 >anything racist or were unaware of how our language use might be=20 >problematic. Such calls for sensitivity should certainly not be=20 >dismissed just because they are about being human and possibly even=20 >admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being seen as=20 >the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his=20 >intellectual prowess. > >This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in=20 >the ensuing discussion, many have left due to the expression of=20 >further racist sentiment and the denial of granting that a) we might=20 >be ignorant of the implications of some terms and b) maybe we should=20 >be more sensitive when someone points out something we've said that=20 >could be offensive. > >Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm=20 >still trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the=20 >implications of my actions helps, then I'll pull out the=20 >mirror. Take a peek at some of what Tim Yu and others have said=20 >about the last race discussion on Poetics: > >An excerpt: > >"As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being >able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the >street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not >possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial >minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that >over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have >most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as >it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list >is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely >heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." > >and > >"In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was >operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After >the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I >fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, >the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to >outweigh the benefits." > >Please read the entire note here: >http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html > >and > >"It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he found >close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential >through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this >disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv >reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the >Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally >disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim >desired. > >Such is often the case with almost all message boards >and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism >and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants >on the vast majority of message boards." > >http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs -and-listservs.html > > >Be well, > >Amy > > >_______ > > > > > >Recent work > >http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > >Amy's Alias > >http://amyking.org/ > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=20 >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:03:11 -0500 From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Anglo-Saxon Riddle-Poem translations and illustrations on nycbigcitylit.com, from Bertha Rogers If you have affection for Old English poetry then you might wish to check o=3D ut these translations (both literary and artistic) from Bertha Rogers: -----Original Message----- From: bkrogers@delhitel.net [mailto:bkrogers@delhitel.net] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:17 PM To: Burt.kimmelman@njit.edu Subject: my Anglo-Saxon Riddle-Poem translations and illustrations on nycbi=3D gcitylit.com Dear Burt, I thought you might be interested in seeing my Anglo-Saxon Riddle-P=3D oem translations and illustrations on nycbigcitylit.com. Here's the link: http://www.bigcitylit.com/bigcitylit12.php?inc=3D3Dfall08/twelve_12. Hope all is well with you, and hope you have a great Thanksgiving! Best, Bertha =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 06:39:20 -0800 From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" > I would take reflection as "generative" in that way. It is > producing something. I would argue that if it produced > indifference, though, it's not really generative of anything. > > Thanks for the clarification. > > Troy Except indifference? Surely it generated indifference? But no matter. Because art is invisible, indifference does not always signify acute perception. Even when art is visible, this is true. Just because even the whole world is initially indifferent does not mean much, sometimes. The twist is sometimes incomprehensible for a while, foreign, not obviously relevant, emotionally unrecognized, yadayada. I don't see 'generativeness' as a useful measure of artistic quality. Instead, think of it as a property that some art has for some people and not for others. A kind of joint property shared by the work and some people. They connected somehow. Com port not null. Or, if we use the definition I used of generativeness (which is how i normally use it concerning art), then think of generativeness as a property works of art are said to have when they themselves somehow generate art algorithmically. This is not a judgement but a categorization by other criteria. I don't think Halvard was being petty. He made an observation that occurred to me also. Namely, if you use generativeness as a criterion to determine what's great art or even just art, you begin the construction with difficulties, big leaks in the hull. If I'm not mistaken, that ship has never sailed to glory. It just doesn't really lend itself to being used in such a way. Not to say it isn't a useful distinction, but the tool can be formulated more objectively, particularly when generativeness isn't made to be measured by vague audience reaction (anything other than indifference is generative? then it is a distinction without significant difference, in the scheme of things, because all we can say is it's generative if it got a reaction other than indifference. yet if we stay with it needing to generate writing or whatever in the audience then we have the case Halvard raised.). ja http://vispo.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:39:48 -0500 From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo Newsletter 11.24.08-11.30.08 LITERARY BUFFALO 11.24.08-11.30.08 EVENTS THIS WEEK Visit the Literary Buffalo calendar at www.justbuffalo.org for more detaile=3D d info on these events. All events free and open to the pubic unless other=3D wise noted. 11.24.08 Rooftop Poetry Club at Buffalo State College Andrew Zawacki and Katy Lederer Poetry Reading Monday, November 24, 4:30 PM E.H. Butler Library, Rm. 210 11.27.08 HAPPY THANKSGIVING For your reading and culinary pleasure, take a look at Buffalo poetry maven=3D /culinary whiz kid Geoffrey Gatza's annual Thanksgiving Menu Poem: Thanksgiving Menu Poem Guest of Honor: Anne Waldman All invited=3D21 Online now at http://www.blazevox.org/thanks.htm 11.29.08 Just Buffalo Interdisciplinary Event Poetry and Fashion Performances by Phranchiz, Lonnie Harrell, and Ten Thousand Hosted by Dr. Anthony Neal Saturday, November 29, 7:30 PM Uptown Performing Arts Theater,=3DA03165 Bailey Ave., Bflo ________________________________________________________________________ ___ JUST BUFFALO MEMBER WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP http://www.justbuffalo.org/docs/Writer_Critique_Group.pdf ________________________________________________________________________ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i=3D mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=3D40justbuffalo.org =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:58:18 -0600 From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" Got your point, Troy. The hyperbole was also noted. Hal "Take what you can use and let the rest go by." --Ken Kesey Halvard Johnson =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Nov 23, 2008, at 9:02 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Pettiness and purposefully missing the point are also not generative. > > Troy > > > > ________________________________ > From: Halvard Johnson > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:57:56 AM > Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" > > Damn! There go Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Stravinsky et al., > none of whom have stimulated me to compose music. Oops, there go > Rembrandt, Picasso, and a whole bunch of others. > > Hal > > You have no enemies in this folder. > > Halvard Johnson > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > halvard@earthlink.net > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html > > > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 12:52 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > >> Seems to me that art, to be art, is necessarily generative. If it =20 >> doesn't stimulate others to create, it's of no real value to anyone =20 >> other than the person who made it. Which means it really isn't art. =20 >> All art is social. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Murat Nemet-Nejat >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:37:50 PM >> Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" >> >> Jim, >> >> You are right. Generative art proliferates more easily. But I like =20 >> the idea >> of "concept' in "conceptual." Doesn't "generative" imply more a =20 >> formula, an >> algorithm? You would know that better, but even an algorithm may =20 >> have a not >> openly spelled out idea, concept behind it. >> >> Walter Benjamin's mechanical reproduction is problematic. When he was >> applying that term to photography, photographs were extremely =20 >> difficult to >> take, took a lot of time and exposure and the transformation from =20 >> reflected >> light to image was fragile and full of 'mistakes." That's what =20 >> makes those >> photographs sp powerful. did you read my essay *The Peripheral =20 >> space of >> photography*? >> >> Ciao, >> >> Murat >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: >> >>> Though our points of view are converging, I should also try to =20 >>> clarify the >>>> opposite point I am making: when concepual, particularly of the =20 >>>> procedural >>>> kind, explodes into unmanagable profileration when it becomes =20 >>>> actualized. >>>> In >>>> that way, the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened. >>>> >>> >>> the procedural doesn't necessarily involve the sort of =20 >>> proliferation you >>> mention, of course. >>> >>> for instance, http://vispo.com/StirFryTexts/spastext.html or >>> http://vispo.com/arteroids >>> >>> the generative, on the other hand, is more often associated with >>> proliferation. not always, though. 'generative art' is a whole =20 >>> field. >>> dbCinema is generative. >>> >>> you say "the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened" via =20 >>> proliferation. >>> sometimes. but sometimes proliferation is part of the concept. the =20 >>> work of >>> art in the age of mechanical reproduction. proliferation. =20 >>> spamification. >>> that still doesn't tell us whether it's interesting or not. there =20 >>> just are >>> no recipes for interesting art. no algorithms that will do it =20 >>> every time. >>> some algorithms that will do it from time to time. but not all the =20 >>> time. >>> like there is no algorithm that will always be able to tell if any =20 >>> given >>> program will halt. >>> >>> "though I suppose it's easy to miss the conceptual dimension so some >>>> artists >>>> like to focus attention on it by the absence of other dimensions. =20 >>>> In a >>>> sense, this is a pop approach." >>>> >>>> Well, pop can be a powerful art form. >>>> >>> >>> sure. >>> >>> "Something. It's just easier to pretend to the conceptual than it =20 >>> is to >>>> some >>>> other types of work where the chops are not so easily fakable." >>>> >>>> In my recent conversation with Chris Funhouser, he was telling me =20 >>>> how hard >>>> it was to create some of his "flash"? pieces. They are gorgeous, =20 >>>> evocative >>>> to watch. on the other hand, it is a blessing that they are hard to >>>> actualize. They are a limited number of them. >>>> >>> >>> true. >>> >>> >>> ja >>> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 >>> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >> >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:06:26 -0800 From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Self-promotion - Visual Poetry and more... Alexander Jorgensen http://www.venerealkittens.blogspot.com/2008/10/alexander-jorgensen.html For those interested, here are examples of what I'll call a "fresh wave" of visual poetry (and I use visual poetry, because I think, and this is my need, that vispo sounds too sterile for my liking) - along with a poem not otherwise found online (as it first appeared in Noon #4). Hope you enjoy. Will say thanks ahead of time to those who do opt to visit. Incidentally, this online journal is really worth a look. Matina Stamatakis does an exceptional job with it. Regards, Alexander Jorgensen --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 4:01 AM I would take reflection as "generative" in that way. It is producing something. I would argue that if it produced indifference, though, it's not really generative of anything. Thanks for the clarification. Troy ________________________________ From: Jim Andrews To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 5:27:37 PM Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" > Seems to me that art, to be art, is necessarily generative. If it doesn't stimulate others to create, it's of no real value to anyone other than the person who made it. Which means it really isn't art. All art is social. When some people call art 'generative', they mean it stimulates them to write or whatever. I take it that's your usage, Troy. But the term 'generative art' has another meaning. It refers to a type of art where the work of art, itself, generates not a response in the audience but the visible or audible (or whatever) manifestation of the viewed work of art. So, typically, this sort of work of art is an executable, digital work, an app, a program, though it needn't be. Could be an analog machine or perhaps, on a more conceptual level, injunctions to do this or that. Though, in that case, the piece itself is not really doing the 'generation' and it probably wouldn't be of much interest to people interested in 'generative art'. Just to clarify the term. On another note. A work could stimulate others to reflect. That needn't be stimulating them to create. Would that be 'generative' in your sense? Is that of value? If so, and it is not generative, then not all art is generative in your sense. ja http://vispo.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =20 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:30:49 -0500 From: Amanda Earl Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets try the anthology Shift and Switch edited by Jason Christie and=20 a.rawlings and derek beaulieu http://www.themercurypress.ca/?q=3Dbooks/shift_switch i also recommend the Canadian site Ditchpoetry.com which includes a=20 lot of experimental poetry, and perhaps language poetry and links to=20 those who write it. best, Amanda Earl=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:17:22 -0800 From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List I think this is a really important posting. Thanks, Amy. I kept wondering what all those silent list members were thinking. --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: From: amy king Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another list m=3D ember found problematic.=3DA0 The latter said so. Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote stra=3D ins of resistance -- i.e.=3DA0 the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & here's a list.=3DA0=3D20 Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic and noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms.=3DA0=3D20 The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be ... wo=3D rth ignoring.=3DA0=3D20 In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to calls fo=3D r sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were unawar=3D e of how our language use might be problematic.=3DA0 Such calls for sensitivity should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being human a=3D nd possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being se=3D en as the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellectual prowess.=3DA0=3D20 This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the ensui=3D ng discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist sentimen=3D t and the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the implications of =3D some terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out some=3D thing we've said that could be offensive.=3DA0=3D20 Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something.=3DA0 I'm = still trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the implications of=3D my actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror.=3DA0 Take a peek at some = of wha=3D t Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: An excerpt: "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." and=3D20 "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to outweigh the benefits." Please read the entire note here: http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html and "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he found close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim desired. Such is often the case with almost all message boards and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants on the vast majority of message boards." http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs- and=3D -listservs.html Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A =20 =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:56:24 -0800 From: amy king Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List Mark, Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this listserv, have =3D joined a community of writers.=3DA0 Self righteous indignation as a response =3D to someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of race =3D doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum.=3DA0=3D20 As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other members, eve=3D n if only to=3DA0 maintain our right to be obtuse to other member's concerns?=3D =3DA0 Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language works, esp w=3D hen we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is to=3D express his consternation over the use of a term within this community? =3D =3DA0 Do we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members?=3DA0=3DA0=3D =3D20 You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist implica=3D tions, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that the usage c=3D arries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did not warrant s=3D ome of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply.=3DA0=3D20 It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is "unintentional" or not aime=3D d at us.=3DA0=3DA0 And easy to write it off as the 'messy business of language,=3D ' regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it simply s=3D houldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is exactly the abs=3D tracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets us into all =3D manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being "misunderstood." Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: Amy: Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language.=3D20 Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we do. Mark --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: From: amy king Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another list member found problematic.=3DA0 The latter said so. Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote stra=3D ins of resistance -- i.e.=3DA0 the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & here's a list.=3DA0=3D20 Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic and noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms.=3DA0=3D20 The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be ... wo=3D rth ignoring.=3DA0=3D20 In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to calls for sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were unaware of how our language use might be problematic.=3DA0 Such calls for sensitivity should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being human a=3D nd possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being se=3D en as the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellectual prowess.=3DA0=3D20 This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the ensui=3D ng discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist sentimen=3D t and the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the implications of =3D some terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out something we've said that could be offensive.=3DA0=3D20 Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something.=3DA0 I'm = still trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the implications of=3D my actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror.=3DA0 Take a peek at some = of wha=3D t Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: An excerpt: "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." and=3D20 "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to outweigh the benefits." Please read the entire note here: http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html and "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he found close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim desired. Such is often the case with almost all message boards and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants on the vast majority of message boards." http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs- and=3D -listservs.html Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A =20 =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:38:37 -0500 From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets "experimental" and not "language" ? but I offer: Nicole Brossard M. NourbeSe Philip Louky Bersianik Madeleine Gagnon France Theoret Roy Miki Christian Bok Derek MacCormack Corey Frost -----Original Message----- >From: John Cunningham >Sent: Nov 24, 2008 8:28 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > >Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's face it, >you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the reception of >language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, right in >your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august halls >most of Canada's language writers emanated. >John Cunningham > >-----Original Message----- >From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >Behalf Of George Bowering >Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > >You're kidding! > > >On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > >> I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of >> Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down =20 >> Canadian >> language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any =20 >> Canadian >> language poets. Thanks. >> John Cunningham >> >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 >> welcome.html >> > >G. Harry Bowering, OC >Worth the trouble. > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >Internal Virus Database is out of date. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 >Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 03/07/2008 >7:19 PM > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:43:41 -0500 From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets There's also Christian Bok & Margaret Atwood's Ground Works: Avante-Garde for Thee, House of Anansi Press, 2003 -----Original Message----- >From: Amanda Earl >Sent: Nov 23, 2008 8:30 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > >try the anthology Shift and Switch edited by Jason Christie and=20 >a.rawlings and derek beaulieu >http://www.themercurypress.ca/?q=3Dbooks/shift_switch > >i also recommend the Canadian site Ditchpoetry.com which includes a=20 >lot of experimental poetry, and perhaps language poetry and links to=20 >those who write it. > >best, >Amanda Earl=20 > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:02:53 -0500 From: Sarah Sarai Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets . . . the Canadian language? . . . sounds like a northern patois =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:03:52 -0500 From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which=20 might account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might=20 want to avoid condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our=20 vulnerability?") and extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations=20 of views you disagree with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not=20 a flame war, and there's no need to light fires. Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is the=20 essence of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and=20 refers to a group with a long history of discrimination,=20 characterizing it in terms that have caused enormous misery. If it=20 were a more recent usage we most of us would try to reform it out of=20 existence, but the word is so deeply embedded in the language that=20 it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with the Roma,=20 though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's even harder to=20 imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a=20 different order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this=20 discussion, by the way. Its origin is neither racist nor=20 anti-Nigerian, and its use is limited denotatively and hasn't bled,=20 and isn't likely to, into attitudes towards Nigerians in general.=20 Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds it offensive, it=20 remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree,=20 but discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a=20 writers' list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us=20 separate the apples and oranges. Mark PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age=20 more richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've=20 never been there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those=20 attitudes. When I was in high school a Nigerian exchange student=20 lived with us for a few months. We became good friends. His father=20 was head master of a very English-style boarding school, purportedly=20 the most prestigious in the country, and Aloy regaled me with stories=20 of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke Latin, which I=20 envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer bottle with=20 his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the Biafra war,=20 like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, when=20 separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative=20 convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem=20 Hausa of the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns,=20 though most of the resources and money were in the south. Much of the=20 US support for Biafra was, I think, motivated by a sense that the=20 Christian Ibo were like "us." Which is not to negate the considerable=20 pain that caused the Biafrans to attempt to secede. New York's WBAI=20 reported the bombings and starvation by live radio feeds. It was=20 horrific--over a million people died. Since then I've followed the=20 often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm aware can't be the=20 whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the short end. Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book "Walking,"=20 which I'm proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my=20 imagined Nigeria. None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the=20 limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: >Mark, > >Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this=20 >listserv, have joined a community of writers. Self righteous=20 >indignation as a response to someone asking for a little sensitivity=20 >when it comes to issues of race doesn't exactly work towards=20 >respecting group decorum. > >As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other=20 >members, even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other=20 >member's concerns? Are we so certain of our positions on exactly=20 >how language works, esp when we use it, that we must let Obododimma=20 >Oha know just how wrong he is to express his consternation over the=20 >use of a term within this community? Do we even bother to wonder=20 >if we've insulted other list members? > >You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist=20 >implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out=20 >that the usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that=20 >certainly did not warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. > >It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is "unintentional" or=20 >not aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business=20 >of language,' regardless of just who we're using it around and who=20 >we think it simply shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise=20 >-- which is exactly the abstracted mentality that ignores who we're=20 >talking with and gets us into all manner of nastiness on a daily=20 >basis in the name of being "misunderstood." > >Be well, > >Amy > >_______ > > > > > >Recent work > >http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > >Amy's Alias > >http://amyking.org/ > >--- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: >Amy: > >Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. >Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we do. > >Mark >--- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: >From: amy king >Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM > > From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another list >member >found problematic. The latter said so. > >Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote strains >of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions >weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & >here's a list. > >Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic and >noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. > >The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be ... worth >ignoring. >In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same >institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying >sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to calls >for >sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were >unaware >of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for sensitivity >should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being human and >possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being seen >as >the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellectual >prowess. > >This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the ensuing >discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist sentiment >and >the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the=20 >implications of some >terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out >something >we've said that could be offensive. > >Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm still >trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the implications of my >actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some of what >Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: > >An excerpt: > >"As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being >able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the >street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not >possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial >minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that >over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have >most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as >it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list >is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely >heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." > >and > >"In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was >operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After >the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I >fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, >the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to >outweigh the benefits." > >Please read the entire note here: >http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html > >and > >"It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he >found >close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential >through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this >disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv >reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the >Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally >disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim >desired. > >Such is often the case with almost all message boards >and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism >and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants >on the vast majority of message boards." > >http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs -and-listservs.html > > >Be well, > >Amy > > >_______ > > > > > >Recent work > >http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > >Amy's Alias > >http://amyking.org/ > > > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=20 >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:35:40 -0500 From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: What we're called, was Re: David Obododimma & Others, I have taken much from this discussion. I think just talking about this, no matter the timbre of our responses, has given me the chance to discuss language and its repercussions...something I rarely get to do otherwise. -Ryan On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:38 AM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > Well, I guess I have I have made my point in this thread and cannot compel > anyone to give that point a second thought. By writing about "some wars > starting from recklessness in the use of language", I was not necessarily > addressing your analysis, or your use of words. I was simply referring to > the orientation of > say-it-the-way-you-like-it-don't-care-about-what-anyone-feels. It's good > that Anny Ballardini gave an example of a personal experience he had when > he > used the expression "working as hard as a negro". For him, he didn't mean > any prejudice. But someone there saw something else in the analogy and got > offended. And what did Ballardini do next?One has to decide for oneself how > to manage one's language and situations that unfold from language use in a > world where people indeed see language as social semiotic. > For me, this is where the thread ends. > > Regards. > Obododimma. > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > > > It's always interesting to be the butt of sarcasm, but accuracy also > > counts. I was I thought pointing out the large gray areas, and talking > about > > appropriateness (albeit with tongue wandering into cheek at times). I > doubt > > that I've caused too many wars today. > > > > But your examples present some interesting issues. Policeman became > > obsolete as a generic term when women were allowed to join police forces, > > and other terms that cover both genders, like cops, police, or police > > officers, took over, because it would have been absurd to do otherwise. > But > > we refer to policemen and policewomen when appropriate--it's not > > anachronistic to point out a policewoman to someone who needs help, if > > that's who's available. The word stewardess, which is the term I think > you > > were searching for, became an issue because it had an extraprofessional > use > > as fetish. That survives to an extent, but probably more than the word > > itself, which dates back to when cabin crews were exclusively female (and > > exclusively young--there were age discrimination suits about that). > Poetess > > had largely fallen out of fashion by the time modern feminism arrived, > > relegated to designating only some women poets. And it's a good thing > that > > it died--the attitude expressed by the word had become poisonous. > > > > These are all questions of gender, in a language that has become less and > > less gendered over the past thousand years. It's not something that > speakers > > of more gendered languages worry about too much, because to do something > > about it would require the restructuring of grammar. Airplane crews are > > still hotes and hotesses, actors are comedians and comediennes, etc, and > the > > French sun is masculine and the moon feminine, while in German it's the > > reverse. So the battles are fought elsewhere. In modern English there > were > > so few distinct masculine and feminine forms for human occupations that > most > > of the work of remaking the language would involve the renaming of the > > beasts--stallion and mare, buck and doe, etc. Don't mistake me--I'm > plenty > > aware of gender issues. I'm talking about the genders of articles, nouns, > > pronouns and adjectives. > > > > A travel article in today's New York Times web edition, "The Proud > Indians > > of Chiapas," has attracted a lot of comments, mostly about the use of the > > word Indian. Many of the respondents pointed out that in Chiapas, and > Latin > > America in general, the (recently) preferred term is "indigena" (which is > > both masculine and feminine, by the way). The objection noted to Indian > is > > that it's inaccurate. In Spanish it's worse than that--Indio is often a > > derogatory term, and India in some places is a synonym for whore. But the > > article is written for gringos. In the US there's no unanimity among > (let's > > call them) first peoples about what to call themselves. Native American > > doesn't seem to have caught on, though it appeared to for a while, and > > members of a lot of tribes prefer to be called American Indians and don't > > mind that their reservations are generically called Indian reservations. > In > > the country at large Indian is nowhere near as derogatory as Indio or > India. > > It apparently didn't raise eyebrows among the Times staffers. > > > > It's not up to me, it's up to the people so designated, who have a long > > history of persecution by whatever name. Not so the compound noun > Nigerian > > scam. It's hard for me to believe that anyone uses it with derogation of > > Nigerians in general in mind, and I don't think there's a shred of > > antiNigerian sentiment in the US, where most people would be hard put to > say > > what a Nigerian is. > > > > But ok, what about the name Nigeria--Blackland? Is that an acceptable > > inheritance from the colonialist past? > > > > If this thread continues, it would be nice if it involved discussion > rather > > than verbal violence. The issues are interesting in themselves. > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > At 02:53 AM 11/18/2008, Obododimma Oha wrote: > > > >> Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does n > >> Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language does not > >> change, or should not be allowed to change. People who live in different > >> times have different tastes and different responses. One would simply be > >> anachronistic and socially unacceptable if one, for instance, continues > >> using the term "policeman" (instead of "police officer"), "air hostess" > >> (instead of "flight attendant" or "cabin crew") or "poetess" (instead of > >> simply "poet"). I am surprised that you think that filtering out words > >> processed as offensive in a given period is a waste of time. Perhaps you > are > >> also saying that it is wrong for POETICS to rule that it does not and > would > >> not publish flame messages. Perhaps some of us can now dispense with > >> communicative competence and facework. Little wonder some wars in the > world > >> start from recklessness in the use of words. --- Obododimma Oha. > >> ________________________________ > >> > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:52:03 +0100 From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List I didn't want to come into this debate, but it seems to me that Mark Weiss really has an orientation in language use that he thinks is entirely healthy and cannot accommodate to others. Quite unfortunate. I thought that, by referring to his age, he should be helping us (who are supposedly younger) to be a little more cautious in our use of words. I was amazed when I came across terms such as "Moslem Hausa" and "Christian Ibo" in his post that I am responding to. Shocking! Maybe he doesn't know that millions of Hausa people are Christians! And maybe he doesn't know that some Igbo (not "Ibo") people are Muslims (one of my cousins is!), adherents of African Traditional Religion, Eckists, Guru Maharajists, etc. How then can he characterize a whole ethnic group like the Hausa as being Muslim? Yes, it is true that many Hausa people are Muslims, but that does not make the whole group Muslim. I am afraid that in using the term, Mark has become a victim of the political rhetoric that tries to use religion as shibboleth. It is such shibboleth that Ojukwu's war rhetoric tried to arm itself with, to attract international Christian sympathy during the war. I am Igbo myself and did support the Biafran cause, but now, as somebody with a PhD in Stylistics (specifically in War Rhetoric and a criminologist), I can, without appearing disloyal to Biafra, tell what Ojukwu was trying to do when he used the terms "Muslim Hausa Fulani" or "Islamic North". It would be a pity if the politician is now more clever than the poet the vates, the seer, the everything! But Mark is not a politician and should know the cost of words in the marketplace of meaning making.Mark, please, don't take offence at this: think seriously about your tendency to stick to your views, and refusal to welcome the fact that you could learn from another person!Be well, poet. Obododimma. On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which might > account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might want to avoid > condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our vulnerability?") and > extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations of views you disagree > with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not a flame war, and there's no > need to light fires. > > Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is the essence > of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and refers to a group > with a long history of discrimination, characterizing it in terms that have > caused enormous misery. If it were a more recent usage we most of us would > try to reform it out of existence, but the word is so deeply embedded in the > language that it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with the > Roma, though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's even harder to > imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a different > order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this discussion, by the > way. Its origin is neither racist nor anti-Nigerian, and its use is limited > denotatively and hasn't bled, and isn't likely to, into attitudes towards > Nigerians in general. Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds it > offensive, it remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. > > Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree, but > discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a writers' > list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us separate the > apples and oranges. > > Mark > > PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age more > richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've never been > there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those attitudes. When I was in > high school a Nigerian exchange student lived with us for a few months. We > became good friends. His father was head master of a very English-style > boarding school, purportedly the most prestigious in the country, and Aloy > regaled me with stories of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke > Latin, which I envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer > bottle with his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the Biafra > war, like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, when > separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative > convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem Hausa of > the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns, though most of the > resources and money were in the south. Much of the US support for Biafra > was, I think, motivated by a sense that the Christian Ibo were like "us." > Which is not to negate the considerable pain that caused the Biafrans to > attempt to secede. New York's WBAI reported the bombings and starvation by > live radio feeds. It was horrific--over a million people died. Since then > I've followed the often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm aware can't > be the whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the short end. > > Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book "Walking," which I'm > proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my imagined Nigeria. > > None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the > limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. > > > At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: > >> Mark, >> >> Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this listserv, have >> joined a community of writers. Self righteous indignation as a response to >> someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of race >> doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum. >> >> As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other members, >> even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other member's concerns? >> Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language works, esp when >> we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is to >> express his consternation over the use of a term within this community? Do >> we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members? >> >> You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist >> implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that the >> usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did not >> warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. >> >> It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is "unintentional" or not >> aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business of language,' >> regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it simply >> shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is exactly the >> abstracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets us into >> all manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being >> "misunderstood." >> >> Be well, >> >> Amy >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: >> Amy: >> >> Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. >> Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we do. >> >> Mark >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: >> From: amy king >> Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM >> >> From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another list >> member >> found problematic. The latter said so. >> >> Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote >> strains >> of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions >> weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & >> here's a list. >> >> Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic and >> noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. >> >> The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be ... >> worth >> ignoring. >> In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same >> institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying >> sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to calls >> for >> sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were >> unaware >> of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for sensitivity >> should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being human >> and >> possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being >> seen >> as >> the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellectual >> prowess. >> >> This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the >> ensuing >> discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist >> sentiment >> and >> the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the implications of >> some >> terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out >> something >> we've said that could be offensive. >> >> Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm still >> trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the implications >> of my >> actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some of what >> Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: >> >> An excerpt: >> >> "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being >> able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the >> street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not >> possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial >> minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that >> over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have >> most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as >> it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list >> is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely >> heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." >> >> and >> >> "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was >> operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After >> the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I >> fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, >> the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to >> outweigh the benefits." >> >> Please read the entire note here: >> http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html >> >> and >> >> "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he >> found >> close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential >> through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this >> disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv >> reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the >> Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally >> disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim >> desired. >> >> Such is often the case with almost all message boards >> and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism >> and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants >> on the vast majority of message boards." >> >> >> http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs- and-listservs.html >> >> >> Be well, >> >> Amy >> >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> >> >> >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=20 Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:23:21 -0800 From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets I mean, I couldnt believe that you yourself didn't know the field as =20 well as anyone,. gb On Nov 24, 2008, at 5:28 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's =20 > face it, > you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the reception of > language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, =20 > right in > your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august =20 > halls > most of Canada's language writers emanated. > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) =20 > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of George Bowering > Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > > You're kidding! > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > >> I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of >> Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down >> Canadian >> language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any >> Canadian >> language poets. Thanks. >> John Cunningham >> >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html >> > > G. Harry Bowering, OC > Worth the trouble. > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: =20 > 03/07/2008 > 7:19 PM > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > welcome.html > G. Bowering Knows which door the tiger's behind. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:24:12 -0500 From: Vera Renczi Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets I think it's funny that you are creating a coarse and yet you seem to have very limited knowledge of the subject, but perhaps that is how it's done when one teaches Colin smith Dorthy Trujillo Lusk Stephen Cain Margaret Christakos Daniel F Bradley Victor Coleman Christopher Dewdney V ** On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:28 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's face it, > you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the reception of > language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, right in > your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august halls > most of Canada's language writers emanated. > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of George Bowering > Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > > You're kidding! > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > > > I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of > > Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down > > Canadian > > language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any > > Canadian > > language poets. Thanks. > > John Cunningham > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html > > > > G. Harry Bowering, OC > Worth the trouble. > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 03/07/2008 > 7:19 PM > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:59:19 -0800 From: amy king Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List Mark, =3DA0 I'm writing as a member of this listserv community=3DA0who is slightly appall=3D ed and very=3DA0bewildered=3DA0by the lack of care & = concern=3DA0evidenced sent i=3D n a number of=3DA0replies to Oha.=3DA0=3D20 =3DA0 And yes, I have indeed thought much of Oha's request and analyzed my experi=3D ence with the term, which is limited too.=3DA0 You might recall that my initi=3D al response to Oha was one of=3DA0surprise, apology, and a note to say that I=3D hadn't thought of the implications of using the term.=3DA0=3D20 =3DA0 Since then, my conclusion is that a) all email scams do not originate in Ni=3D geria, but in fact, originate from everywhere, including the U.S., = =3DA0b) I =3D don't refer to email scams that originate from elsewhere as=3DA0"British Scam=3D s" or "American scams", and c) isn't it simply easier, and more respectful =3D as per Oha's request, to refer to these scams as "email scams", both here i=3D n this community and elsewhere?=3DA0=3DA0 How hard is it to acknowledge = the ris=3D k, make=3DA0the switch, and let Oha know his note made=3DA0me = think?=3DA0 =3DA0Why =3D must he receive belligerence?=3DA0 I'm amazed at his consistent grace = and civ=3D ility through all of this.=3DA0=3D20 =3DA0 My sense is, after much discussion with my students about the topic, that t=3D he average American doesn't know much about Nigeria or Nigerian culture, my=3D self included.=3DA0 So why would I risk perpetuating the negativity that goes=3D with calling email scams, "Nigerian scams?"=3DA0 Similarly, many Americans d=3D idn't have much reference when they heard the word "Arab."=3DA0 Post = 9/11, we=3D 've got "Arab terrorists," which=3DA0has pretty much become synonymous with "=3D Arabs" in our culture now (of course, generally speaking), and look at the=3D =3DA0negativity that term generates.=3DA0=3D20 =3DA0 Are all terrorists "Arab"?=3DA0 Are all Arabs=3DA0"terrorists"?=3DA0 Are = all emai=3D l scams=3DA0perpetuated by=3DA0"Nigerians?"=3DA0 Are all = Nigerians=3DA0email scamme=3D rs?=3DA0 =3DA0When I find it difficult to come up with much to say about Nigeri=3D a, I don't want my limited vocabulary to be about=3DA0Nigerian scams = after al=3D l, nor do I want to reinforce that vocabulary elsewhere.=3DA0 This was = no gre=3D at leap nor=3DA0grave concession.=3DA0 Moreover,=3DA0what grieves me, again,=3DA0ar=3D e the=3DA0resistances to=3DA0the validity of=3DA0Oha's request=3DA0sent = in the face=3D of what could only=3DA0have been=3DA0a difficult one to make.=3DA0 And = now, the =3D refusal to acknowledge that this list has a history of such resistance--and=3D that we may be carrying on tradition.=3DA0=3D20 =3DA0 Be well, =3DA0 Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which might > account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might want to avoid > condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our vulnerability?") and > extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations of views you disagree > with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not a flame war, and there's no > need to light fires. > > Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is the essence > of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and refers to a group > with a long history of discrimination, characterizing it in terms that have > caused enormous misery. If it were a more recent usage we most of us woul=3D d > try to reform it out of existence, but the word is so deeply embedded in the > language that it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with the > Roma, though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's even harder to > imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a differen=3D t > order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this discussion, by the > way. Its origin is neither racist nor anti-Nigerian, and its use is limited > denotatively and hasn't bled, and isn't likely to, into attitudes towards > Nigerians in general. Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds it > offensive, it remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. > > Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree, but > discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a writers' > list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us separate the > apples and oranges. > > Mark > > PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age more > richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've never been > there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those attitudes. When I was in > high school a Nigerian exchange student lived with us for a few months. W=3D e > became good friends. His father was head master of a very English-style > boarding school, purportedly the most prestigious in the country, and Alo=3D y > regaled me with stories of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke > Latin, which I envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer > bottle with his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the Biafr=3D a > war, like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, when > separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative > convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem Hausa o=3D f > the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns, though most of the > resources and money were in the south. Much of the US support for Biafra > was, I think, motivated by a sense that the Christian Ibo were like "us." > Which is not to negate the considerable pain that caused the Biafrans to > attempt to secede. New York's WBAI reported the bombings and starvation by > live radio feeds. It was horrific--over a million people died. Since then > I've followed the often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm aware can't > be the whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the short end. > > Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book "Walking," which I'm > proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my imagined Nigeria. > > None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the > limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. > > > At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: > >> Mark, >> >> Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this listserv, have >> joined a community of writers. Self righteous indignation as a response to >> someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of race >> doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum. >> >> As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other members, >> even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other member's concerns? >> Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language works, esp when >> we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is to >> express his consternation over the use of a term within this community? Do >> we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members? >> >> You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist >> implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that the >> usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did not >> warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. >> >> It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is "unintentional" or not >> aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business of language,' >> regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it simply >> shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is exactly the >> abstracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets us into >> all manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being >> "misunderstood." >> >> Be well, >> >> Amy >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: >> Amy: >> >> Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. >> Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we do. >> >> Mark >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: >> From: amy king >> Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM >> >> From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another list >> member >> found problematic. The latter said so. >> >> Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote >> strains >> of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions >> weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & >> here's a list. >> >> Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic and >> noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. >> >> The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be ... >> worth >> ignoring. >> In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same >> institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying >> sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to calls >> for >> sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were >> unaware >> of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for sensitivity >> should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being human >> and >> possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being >> seen >> as >> the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellectual >> prowess. >> >> This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the >> ensuing >> discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist >> sentiment >> and >> the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the implications of >> some >> terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out >> something >> we've said that could be offensive. >> >> Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm still >> trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the implications >> of my >> actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some of what >> Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: >> >> An excerpt: >> >> "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being >> able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the >> street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not >> possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial >> minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that >> over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have >> most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as >> it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list >> is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely >> heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." >> >> and >> >> "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was >> operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After >> the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I >> fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, >> the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to >> outweigh the benefits." >> >> Please read the entire note here: >> http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html >> >> and >> >> "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he >> found >> close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential >> through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this >> disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv >> reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the >> Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally >> disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim >> desired. >> >> Such is often the case with almost all message boards >> and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism >> and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants >> on the vast majority of message boards." >> >> >> http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs- and=3D -listservs.html >> >> >> Be well, >> >> Amy >> >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> >> =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> >> >> >> =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=3D20 Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A =20 =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:01:57 -0800 From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" Now, if I were to answer your point in a generative manner, I would point out that Picasso has in fact caused me to write poems, so his work is cross-generative. I've also been influenced to write works based on feelings evoked by music. Keats' "Ode on a Grecian Urn" was a result of his having gone to see a show of Greek artifacts. An art work does not have to be generative into the same art form, and it does not have to make everyone be generative of art work, either -- though telling others about what you experienced is also a form of generativeness many non-artists can and do engage in. Troy ________________________________ From: Halvard Johnson To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:58:18 AM Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" Got your point, Troy. The hyperbole was also noted. Hal "Take what you can use and let the rest go by." --Ken Kesey Halvard Johnson =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Nov 23, 2008, at 9:02 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Pettiness and purposefully missing the point are also not generative. >=20 > Troy >=20 >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ > From: Halvard Johnson > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:57:56 AM > Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" >=20 > Damn! There go Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Stravinsky et al., > none of whom have stimulated me to compose music. Oops, there go > Rembrandt, Picasso, and a whole bunch of others. >=20 > Hal >=20 > You have no enemies in this folder. >=20 > Halvard Johnson > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > halvard@earthlink.net > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Nov 23, 2008, at 12:52 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: >=20 >> Seems to me that art, to be art, is necessarily generative. If it doesn't stimulate others to create, it's of no real value to anyone other than the person who made it. Which means it really isn't art. All art is social. >>=20 >> Troy Camplin >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> ________________________________ >> From: Murat Nemet-Nejat >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:37:50 PM >> Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" >>=20 >> Jim, >>=20 >> You are right. Generative art proliferates more easily. But I like the idea >> of "concept' in "conceptual." Doesn't "generative" imply more a formula, an >> algorithm? You would know that better, but even an algorithm may have a not >> openly spelled out idea, concept behind it. >>=20 >> Walter Benjamin's mechanical reproduction is problematic. When he was >> applying that term to photography, photographs were extremely difficult to >> take, took a lot of time and exposure and the transformation from reflected >> light to image was fragile and full of 'mistakes." That's what makes those >> photographs sp powerful. did you read my essay *The Peripheral space of >> photography*? >>=20 >> Ciao, >>=20 >> Murat >>=20 >>=20 >> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: >>=20 >>> Though our points of view are converging, I should also try to clarify the >>>> opposite point I am making: when concepual, particularly of the procedural >>>> kind, explodes into unmanagable profileration when it becomes actualized. >>>> In >>>> that way, the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened. >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> the procedural doesn't necessarily involve the sort of proliferation you >>> mention, of course. >>>=20 >>> for instance, http://vispo.com/StirFryTexts/spastext.html or >>> http://vispo.com/arteroids >>>=20 >>> the generative, on the other hand, is more often associated with >>> proliferation. not always, though. 'generative art' is a whole field. >>> dbCinema is generative. >>>=20 >>> you say "the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened" via proliferation. >>> sometimes. but sometimes proliferation is part of the concept. the work of >>> art in the age of mechanical reproduction. proliferation. spamification. >>> that still doesn't tell us whether it's interesting or not. there just are >>> no recipes for interesting art. no algorithms that will do it every time. >>> some algorithms that will do it from time to time. but not all the time. >>> like there is no algorithm that will always be able to tell if any given >>> program will halt. >>>=20 >>> "though I suppose it's easy to miss the conceptual dimension so some >>>> artists >>>> like to focus attention on it by the absence of other dimensions. In a >>>> sense, this is a pop approach." >>>>=20 >>>> Well, pop can be a powerful art form. >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> sure. >>>=20 >>> "Something. It's just easier to pretend to the conceptual than it is to >>>> some >>>> other types of work where the chops are not so easily fakable." >>>>=20 >>>> In my recent conversation with Chris Funhouser, he was telling me how hard >>>> it was to create some of his "flash"? pieces. They are gorgeous, evocative >>>> to watch. on the other hand, it is a blessing that they are hard to >>>> actualize. They are a limited number of them. >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> true. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ja >>> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>>=20 >>=20 >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>=20 >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:15:42 -0800 From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" I clarified a bit in my response to Halvard what I meant by "generative" in the sense I was using it. Not everyone can be artistically generative. Some people just feel the need to share in a positive manner what they experienced. "To generate" is to grow and to reproduce. So let me go further: neither indifference nor a negative reaction to a work is generative (and I'm not sure "indifference" can be generated -- it seems to me to be a neutral state and not an emotional state at all). A work that is generative in this sense, then, is also a beautiful work. I was thinking of Elaine Scarry's comment in On Beauty that the experience of beauty makes you want to reproduce it. That can be as simple as telling others about it, getting others to come share it with you, etc., or as complex as writing a symphony or a sonnet or making a sculpture of a painting in response to it. A work that is generative for me is not necessarily one that influences me to make another work of the same kind -- or even results in an immediate response in some other genre. Things are not so linear and clear-cut that way. There is no linear cause-and-effect in artistic influence, inspiration, etc. Troy ________________________________ From: Jim Andrews To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 8:39:20 AM Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" > I would take reflection as "generative" in that way. It is > producing something. I would argue that if it produced > indifference, though, it's not really generative of anything. > > Thanks for the clarification. > > Troy Except indifference? Surely it generated indifference? But no matter. Because art is invisible, indifference does not always signify acute perception. Even when art is visible, this is true. Just because even the whole world is initially indifferent does not mean much, sometimes. The twist is sometimes incomprehensible for a while, foreign, not obviously relevant, emotionally unrecognized, yadayada. I don't see 'generativeness' as a useful measure of artistic quality. Instead, think of it as a property that some art has for some people and not for others. A kind of joint property shared by the work and some people. They connected somehow. Com port not null. Or, if we use the definition I used of generativeness (which is how i normally use it concerning art), then think of generativeness as a property works of art are said to have when they themselves somehow generate art algorithmically. This is not a judgement but a categorization by other criteria. I don't think Halvard was being petty. He made an observation that occurred to me also. Namely, if you use generativeness as a criterion to determine what's great art or even just art, you begin the construction with difficulties, big leaks in the hull. If I'm not mistaken, that ship has never sailed to glory. It just doesn't really lend itself to being used in such a way. Not to say it isn't a useful distinction, but the tool can be formulated more objectively, particularly when generativeness isn't made to be measured by vague audience reaction (anything other than indifference is generative? then it is a distinction without significant difference, in the scheme of things, because all we can say is it's generative if it got a reaction other than indifference. yet if we stay with it needing to generate writing or whatever in the audience then we have the case Halvard raised.). ja http://vispo.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:29:28 -0700 From: "Steensen,Sasha" Subject: Bonfire Broadside--Alice Notley Bonfire Press is pleased to announce the publication of "To Ric" by Alice Notley. DESCRIPTION: Broadside printed using lead type. Signed by author. 12 x 10. (2008). Editi=3D on of 75 copies. $10 (includes shipping; Canada, $12; all other countries $14.50). For more information, please visit: http://bonfirepress.colostate.edu =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:47:12 -0800 From: steve russell Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" hasn't Harold Bloom been saying something about generative art for the longest???.... He refers to it as "the anxiety of influence." --- On Sun, 11/23/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Sunday, November 23, 2008, 10:02 PM Pettiness and purposefully missing the point are also not generative. Troy ________________________________ From: Halvard Johnson To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:57:56 AM Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" Damn! There go Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Stravinsky et al., none of whom have stimulated me to compose music. Oops, there go Rembrandt, Picasso, and a whole bunch of others. Hal You have no enemies in this folder. Halvard Johnson =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Nov 23, 2008, at 12:52 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Seems to me that art, to be art, is necessarily generative. If it doesn't stimulate others to create, it's of no real value to anyone other than the person who made it. Which means it really isn't art. All art is social. >=20 > Troy Camplin >=20 >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:37:50 PM > Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" >=20 > Jim, >=20 > You are right. Generative art proliferates more easily. But I like the idea > of "concept' in "conceptual." Doesn't "generative" imply more a formula, an > algorithm? You would know that better, but even an algorithm may have a not > openly spelled out idea, concept behind it. >=20 > Walter Benjamin's mechanical reproduction is problematic. When he was > applying that term to photography, photographs were extremely difficult to > take, took a lot of time and exposure and the transformation from reflected > light to image was fragile and full of 'mistakes." That's what makes those > photographs sp powerful. did you read my essay *The Peripheral space of > photography*? >=20 > Ciao, >=20 > Murat >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: >=20 >> Though our points of view are converging, I should also try to clarify the >>> opposite point I am making: when concepual, particularly of the procedural >>> kind, explodes into unmanagable profileration when it becomes actualized. >>> In >>> that way, the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened. >>>=20 >>=20 >> the procedural doesn't necessarily involve the sort of proliferation you >> mention, of course. >>=20 >> for instance, http://vispo.com/StirFryTexts/spastext.html or >> http://vispo.com/arteroids >>=20 >> the generative, on the other hand, is more often associated with >> proliferation. not always, though. 'generative art' is a whole field. >> dbCinema is generative. >>=20 >> you say "the concept gets deluted, blurred, weakened" via proliferation. >> sometimes. but sometimes proliferation is part of the concept. the work of >> art in the age of mechanical reproduction. proliferation. spamification. >> that still doesn't tell us whether it's interesting or not. there just are >> no recipes for interesting art. no algorithms that will do it every time. >> some algorithms that will do it from time to time. but not all the time. >> like there is no algorithm that will always be able to tell if any given >> program will halt. >>=20 >> "though I suppose it's easy to miss the conceptual dimension so some >>> artists >>> like to focus attention on it by the absence of other dimensions. In a >>> sense, this is a pop approach." >>>=20 >>> Well, pop can be a powerful art form. >>>=20 >>=20 >> sure. >>=20 >> "Something. It's just easier to pretend to the conceptual than it is to >>> some >>> other types of work where the chops are not so easily fakable." >>>=20 >>> In my recent conversation with Chris Funhouser, he was telling me how hard >>> it was to create some of his "flash"? pieces. They are gorgeous, evocative >>> to watch. on the other hand, it is a blessing that they are hard to >>> actualize. They are a limited number of them. >>>=20 >>=20 >> true. >>=20 >>=20 >> ja >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>=20 >=20 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =20 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:48:52 -0500 From: "K. R. Waldrop" Subject: 3 new titles from Burning Deck 3 new Burning Deck titles are available from: Small Press Distribution, www.spdbooks.org or orders@spdbooks.org www.burningdeck.com and in Europe, after Jan.1, 2009, from H Press: www.hpress.no 1. DICHTEN =3D3D, NO. 10: 16 NEW (TO AMERICAN READERS) POETS translated from the German by A. Duncan, T. Frazer, N. Grindell, C. = =3D20 Hawkey & R. Waldrop Poetry, 144 pages, offset, smyth-sewn ISBN 978-1-886224-92-6 original paperback $14 Publication date: December 15, 2008 A magazine issue with poems by Ann Cotton, Franz Josef Czernin, =3D20 Michael Donhauser, Ute Eisinger, Daniel Falb, Hendrik Jackson, Marget =3D20=3D Kreidl, Bert Papenfuss, Steffen Popp, Monika Rinck, Farhad Showghi, = =3D20 Hans Thill, Raphael Urweider, Anja Utler, Ron Winkler, and Uljana Wolf. The poets in this issue, mostly in their thirties and forties, show = =3D20 great formal diversity. The works range from the sound explorations = =3D20 of Anja Utler to the camp sonnets of Ann Cotten; from Czernin=3D92s puns =3D20=3D and permutations to Rinck=3D92s and Falb=3D92s deceptively simple = parlando; =3D20=3D from Donhauser=3D92s grammatical disruptions to Papenfuss=3D92s baroque = =3D lists =3D20 and =3D93sassy East tone.=3D94 But they all share a concern with form = and =3D20=3D with language as material. The poets have also all received at least = =3D20 one prize. 2. S=3DE9rie d=3D92Ecriture #21: Isabelle Baladine Howald SECRET OF BREATH translated from the French by El=3DE9na Rivera Poetry, 64 pages, offset, smyth-sewn ISBN 978-1-886224-91-9 original paperback $14 Publication date: December 15, 2008 SECRET OF BREATH is a suite for two voices =3D97 a voice from outside = and =3D20=3D a voice from inside, a voice of the living and a voice of the dying = =3D97 =3D20=3D in a race against death and toward death. Caught in a narrative frame =3D20=3D and a landscape marked by war, snow, cold, speed, and separation, =3D20 these two voices, even while facing death, embody the approach of =3D20 love. The secret of breath is as much a kiss as a last sigh. ISABELLE BALADINE HOWALD lives and works in Strasbourg, where she =3D20 directs the =3D93Philosophical and Literary Encounters=3D94 of the = Librairie =3D =3D20 Kl=3DE9ber. Her books of poetry include LES NOMS, TR=3DC8S BAS (A = Passage, =3D20=3D 1986) and LES ETATS DE LA D=3DC9MOLITION (Editions Jacques Br=3DE9mond, = =3D20 2002). Our present volume, SECRET DES SOUFFLES, is her most recent =3D20 book (=3DE9ditions Melville, 2004). EL=3DC9NA RIVERA was born in Mexico City and spent her childhood, to = the =3D20=3D age of thirteen, in Paris. She is the author of MISTAKES, ACCIDENTS = =3D20 AND A WANT OF LIBERTY (Barque Press, 2006) and SUGGESTIONS AT EVERY = =3D20 TURN (Seeing Eye Books, 2005). Her translations have appeared in the = =3D20 CHICAGO REVIEW and CIRCUMFERENCE: POETRY IN TRANSLATION. She was =3D20 recently awarded the 2007 Witter Bynner Poetry Translator Residency = =3D20 at the Santa Fe Institute for the Arts. 3. S=3DE9rie d=3D92Ecriture Supplement #5 Anne Portugal QUISITE MOMENT translated from the French by Rosmarie Waldrop Poetry, 24 pages, offset, saddlestitched ISBN 978-1-886224-95-7 chapbook $8 Publication date: December 15, 2008 As Anne Portugal has said, her poetry breaks with elevated subjects = =3D20 as well as with the beauty of phrases. =3D93Poetry is is a laboratory of =3D20=3D languages. It is first and foremost physical.=3D94 Here, she truncates = =3D20 words to give rise to new rhythms, puzzlement, and sheer fun. ANNE PORTUGAL was born in Angers, in 1949. She lives and teaches in = =3D20 Paris. She is also the model of a famous =3D93Poets=3D92 Calendar.=3D94 = Her =3D most =3D20 recent books of poetry are DANS LA REPRODUCTION EN DEUX PARTIES =3D20 =3DC9GALES DES PLANTES ET DES ANIMAUX (1999) and D=3DC9FINITIF BOB = (2002). =3D20=3D Norma Cole has translated NUDE (Kelsey St. Press, 2001). =3D20=3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:54:14 -0800 From: Martha Cinader Mims Subject: L&BH Radio Hour and Open Mic Nov. 25 L&BH Radio Hour and Open Mic Nov. 25, 8-9pm PST At the start of the show I will be joined by Listen & Be Heard =20 Theatre Critic Maria Vrobel, to talk about holiday shows around the =20 Bay Area and hear her recommendations. As always, the show will also feature announcements posted at Listen =20 & Be Heard Network Arts News, some poetry and/or storytelling, some =20 arts editorializing, and calls from listeners with thoughts to share =20 and arts announcements. Poets are encouraged to call in with a poem. Listen, Chat and "Click to Talk" at http://www.blogtalkradio.com/listenandbeheard/2008/11/26/LBH-Radio-=20 Hour-Nov-25 Call-in Number: (718) 506-1481 Please join me to listen and be heard. Wishing you Peace and Poetry martha cinader mims Listen & Be Heard Network editor@listenandbeheard.net http://www.listenandbeheard.net Get Skype and call me for free. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:59:56 -0500 From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List I apologize for my spelling. Ibo was the standard spelling back then=20 in the US media. Igbo and the half a dozen variant spellings I know=20 mostly from Cuban sources, and I thought they referred to a different people. This from=20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Nigeria#Religions_.282000_e stimate.29,=20 "Demographics of Nigeria," whose accuracy I of course can't vouch for: Religious Affiliation Among Major Ethnic Groups Source:=20 http://www.worldchristiandatabase .org * Hausa: 25,900,527 (Muslims 99.90%, Christians 0.10%) * Yoruba: 22,921,473 (Christians 60.00%, Muslims 36.38%, Animists=20 3.00%, Non Religious 0.50%, Baha'is 0.07%, Atheists 0.05%) * Igbo: 22,926,340 (Christians 97.00%, Animists 2.00%, Non=20 Religious 0.80%, Atheists 0.10%, Baha'is 0.10%) I've left out the rest of the table. If you have better sources, I'd=20 be happy to learn. I'm of course aware that religion was used to=20 manipulate international opinion during the war. I learn from others all the time, usually through civil discussion.=20 Like most of us, it's not the first time that I've thought about=20 these issues, and what I use of the language has changed, in part=20 because of input from others. I remain unconvinced in this instance.=20 I don't think, as you suggest, that that's because of a character flaw. I'm content to let this discussion end, but I'm not content to be=20 insulted. If you want to have at me again, please take it=20 backchannel. Front or backchannel, you might want to read your posts=20 before sending them. Mark At 01:52 PM 11/24/2008, you wrote: >I didn't want to come into this debate, but it seems to me that Mark Weiss >really has an orientation in language use that he thinks is entirely healthy >and cannot accommodate to others. Quite unfortunate. I thought that, by >referring to his age, he should be helping us (who are supposedly younger) >to be a little more cautious in our use of words. I was amazed when I came >across terms such as "Moslem Hausa" and "Christian Ibo" in his post that I >am responding to. Shocking! Maybe he doesn't know that millions of Hausa >people are Christians! And maybe he doesn't know that some Igbo (not "Ibo") >people are Muslims (one of my cousins is!), adherents of African Traditional >Religion, Eckists, Guru Maharajists, etc. How then can he characterize a >whole ethnic group like the Hausa as being Muslim? Yes, it is true that many >Hausa people are Muslims, but that does not make the whole group Muslim. I >am afraid that in using the term, Mark has become a victim of the political >rhetoric that tries to use religion as shibboleth. It is such shibboleth >that Ojukwu's war rhetoric tried to arm itself with, to attract >international Christian sympathy during the war. I am Igbo myself and did >support the Biafran cause, but now, as somebody with a PhD in Stylistics >(specifically in War Rhetoric and a criminologist), I can, without appearing >disloyal to Biafra, tell what Ojukwu was trying to do when he used the terms >"Muslim Hausa Fulani" or "Islamic North". It would be a pity if the >politician is now more clever than the poet the vates, the seer, the >everything! But Mark is not a politician and should know the cost of words >in the marketplace of meaning making.Mark, please, don't take offence at >this: think seriously about your tendency to stick to your views, and >refusal to welcome the fact that you could learn from another person!Be >well, poet. >Obododimma. > > >On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which might > > account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might want to avoid > > condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our vulnerability?") and > > extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations of views you disagree > > with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not a flame war, and there's no > > need to light fires. > > > > Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is the essence > > of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and refers to a group > > with a long history of discrimination, characterizing it in terms that have > > caused enormous misery. If it were a more recent usage we most of us would > > try to reform it out of existence, but the word is so deeply=20 > embedded in the > > language that it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with the > > Roma, though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's even harder to > > imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a different > > order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this discussion, by the > > way. Its origin is neither racist nor anti-Nigerian, and its use is limited > > denotatively and hasn't bled, and isn't likely to, into attitudes towards > > Nigerians in general. Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds it > > offensive, it remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. > > > > Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree, but > > discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a writers' > > list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us separate the > > apples and oranges. > > > > Mark > > > > PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age more > > richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've never been > > there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those attitudes.=20 > When I was in > > high school a Nigerian exchange student lived with us for a few months. We > > became good friends. His father was head master of a very English-style > > boarding school, purportedly the most prestigious in the country, and Aloy > > regaled me with stories of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke > > Latin, which I envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer > > bottle with his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the Biafra > > war, like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, when > > separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative > > convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem Hausa of > > the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns, though most of the > > resources and money were in the south. Much of the US support for Biafra > > was, I think, motivated by a sense that the Christian Ibo were like "us." > > Which is not to negate the considerable pain that caused the Biafrans to > > attempt to secede. New York's WBAI reported the bombings and starvation by > > live radio feeds. It was horrific--over a million people died. Since then > > I've followed the often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm aware can't > > be the whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the=20 > short end. > > > > Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book "Walking," which I'm > > proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my imagined Nigeria. > > > > None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the > > limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. > > > > > > At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: > > > >> Mark, > >> > >> Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this listserv, have > >> joined a community of writers. Self righteous indignation as a=20 > response to > >> someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of race > >> doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum. > >> > >> As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other members, > >> even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other=20 > member's concerns? > >> Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language=20 > works, esp when > >> we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is to > >> express his consternation over the use of a term within this=20 > community? Do > >> we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members? > >> > >> You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist > >> implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that the > >> usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did not > >> warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. > >> > >> It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is "unintentional" or not > >> aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business=20 > of language,' > >> regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it simply > >> shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is exactly the > >> abstracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets us into > >> all manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being > >> "misunderstood." > >> > >> Be well, > >> > >> Amy > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Recent work > >> > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >> > >> > >> > >> Amy's Alias > >> > >> http://amyking.org/ > >> > >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> Amy: > >> > >> Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. > >> Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we do. > >> > >> Mark > >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: > >> From: amy king > >> Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM > >> > >> From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another list > >> member > >> found problematic. The latter said so. > >> > >> Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote > >> strains > >> of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions > >> weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & > >> here's a list. > >> > >> Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic and > >> noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. > >> > >> The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be ... > >> worth > >> ignoring. > >> In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same > >> institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying > >> sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to calls > >> for > >> sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were > >> unaware > >> of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for sensitivity > >> should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being human > >> and > >> possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls being > >> seen > >> as > >> the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellectual > >> prowess. > >> > >> This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the > >> ensuing > >> discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist > >> sentiment > >> and > >> the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the implications of > >> some > >> terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out > >> something > >> we've said that could be offensive. > >> > >> Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm still > >> trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the implications > >> of my > >> actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some of what > >> Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: > >> > >> An excerpt: > >> > >> "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being > >> able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the > >> street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not > >> possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial > >> minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that > >> over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have > >> most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as > >> it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list > >> is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely > >> heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." > >> > >> and > >> > >> "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was > >> operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After > >> the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I > >> fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, > >> the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to > >> outweigh the benefits." > >> > >> Please read the entire note here: > >> http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html > >> > >> and > >> > >> "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he > >> found > >> close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential > >> through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this > >> disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv > >> reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the > >> Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally > >> disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim > >> desired. > >> > >> Such is often the case with almost all message boards > >> and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism > >> and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants > >> on the vast majority of message boards." > >> > >> > >>=20 > http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs- and-listservs.html > >> > >> > >> Be well, > >> > >> Amy > >> > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Recent work > >> > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >> > >> > >> > >> Amy's Alias > >> > >> http://amyking.org/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > >-- >Obododimma Oha >Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >Dept. of English >University of Ibadan >Nigeria > >& > >Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >University of Ibadan > >Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=20 >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:05:01 -0500 From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List Amy & Others, I still feel like there's been a misreading of what the term "Nigerian email scam" refers to: particularly, the Nigerian 419 Letter DOES originate in Nigeria and the appeal, the voice of the email DID originate in Nigeria. Most people DO NOT refer to these emails as "Nigerian emails" but rather use the term "419 Letters." Using this term locates the particular email in question as being punishable by Code 419 in Nigeria, but doesn't assume that all authors are living in or nationals of Nigeria. -Ryan On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 3:59 PM, amy king wrote: > Mark, > > I'm writing as a member of this listserv community who is slightly appalled > and very bewildered by the lack of care & concern evidenced sent in a number > of replies to Oha. > > And yes, I have indeed thought much of Oha's request and analyzed my > experience with the term, which is limited too. You might recall that my > initial response to Oha was one of surprise, apology, and a note to say that > I hadn't thought of the implications of using the term. > > Since then, my conclusion is that a) all email scams do not originate in > Nigeria, but in fact, originate from everywhere, including the U.S., b) I > don't refer to email scams that originate from elsewhere as "British Scams" > or "American scams", and c) isn't it simply easier, and more respectful as > per Oha's request, to refer to these scams as "email scams", both here in > this community and elsewhere? How hard is it to acknowledge the risk, > make the switch, and let Oha know his note made me think? Why must he > receive belligerence? I'm amazed at his consistent grace and civility > through all of this. > > My sense is, after much discussion with my students about the topic, that > the average American doesn't know much about Nigeria or Nigerian culture, > myself included. So why would I risk perpetuating the negativity that goes > with calling email scams, "Nigerian scams?" Similarly, many Americans > didn't have much reference when they heard the word "Arab." Post 9/11, > we've got "Arab terrorists," which has pretty much become synonymous with > "Arabs" in our culture now (of course, generally speaking), and look at > the negativity that term generates. > > Are all terrorists "Arab"? Are all Arabs "terrorists"? Are all email > scams perpetuated by "Nigerians?" Are all Nigerians email scammers? When > I find it difficult to come up with much to say about Nigeria, I don't want > my limited vocabulary to be about Nigerian scams after all, nor do I want to > reinforce that vocabulary elsewhere. This was no great leap nor grave > concession. Moreover, what grieves me, again, are the resistances to the > validity of Oha's request sent in the face of what could only have been a > difficult one to make. And now, the refusal to acknowledge that this list > has a history of such resistance--and that we may be carrying on tradition. > > Be well, > > Amy > > _______ > > > Recent work > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > Amy's Alias > http://amyking.org/ > > > > On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > > > I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which might > > account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might want to avoid > > condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our vulnerability?") > and > > extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations of views you disagree > > with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not a flame war, and > there's no > > need to light fires. > > > > Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is > the essence > > of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and refers to a > group > > with a long history of discrimination, characterizing it in terms that > have > > caused enormous misery. If it were a more recent usage we most of us > would > > try to reform it out of existence, but the word is so deeply embedded in > the > > language that it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with > the > > Roma, though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's > even harder to > > imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a > different > > order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this discussion, by > the > > way. Its origin is neither racist nor anti-Nigerian, and its use is > limited > > denotatively and hasn't bled, and isn't likely to, into attitudes > towards > > Nigerians in general. Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds > it > > offensive, it remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. > > > > Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree, but > > discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a > writers' > > list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us separate the > > apples and oranges. > > > > Mark > > > > PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age more > > richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've never > been > > there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those attitudes. When I > was in > > high school a Nigerian exchange student lived with us for a few months. > We > > became good friends. His father was head master of a very English-style > > boarding school, purportedly the most prestigious in the country, and > Aloy > > regaled me with stories of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke > > Latin, which I envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer > > bottle with his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the > Biafra > > war, like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, > when > > separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative > > convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem Hausa > of > > the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns, though most of the > > resources and money were in the south. Much of the US support for Biafra > > was, I think, motivated by a sense that the Christian Ibo were like > "us." > > Which is not to negate the considerable pain that caused the Biafrans to > > attempt to secede. New York's WBAI reported the bombings and > starvation by > > live radio feeds. It was horrific--over a million people died. Since then > > I've followed the often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm > aware can't > > be the whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the short > end. > > > > Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book > "Walking," which I'm > > proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my imagined > Nigeria. > > > > None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the > > limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. > > > > > > At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: > > > >> Mark, > >> > >> Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this > listserv, have > >> joined a community of writers. Self righteous indignation as a > response to > >> someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of > race > >> doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum. > >> > >> As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other > members, > >> even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other member's > concerns? > >> Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language works, esp > when > >> we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is > to > >> express his consternation over the use of a term within this > community? Do > >> we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members? > >> > >> You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist > >> implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that > the > >> usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did > not > >> warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. > >> > >> It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is > "unintentional" or not > >> aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business of > language,' > >> regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it > simply > >> shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is > exactly the > >> abstracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets > us into > >> all manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being > >> "misunderstood." > >> > >> Be well, > >> > >> Amy > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Recent work > >> > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >> > >> > >> > >> Amy's Alias > >> > >> http://amyking.org/ > >> > >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> Amy: > >> > >> Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. > >> Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we > do. > >> > >> Mark > >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: > >> From: amy king > >> Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM > >> > >> From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another > list > >> member > >> found problematic. The latter said so. > >> > >> Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote > >> strains > >> of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my > intentions > >> weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms > exist & > >> here's a list. > >> > >> Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic > and > >> noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. > >> > >> The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be > ... > >> worth > >> ignoring. > >> In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those > same > >> institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its > underlying > >> sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to > calls > >> for > >> sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or > were > >> unaware > >> of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for > sensitivity > >> should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being > human > >> and > >> possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls > being > >> seen > >> as > >> the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his > intellectual > >> prowess. > >> > >> This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the > >> ensuing > >> discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist > >> sentiment > >> and > >> the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the > implications of > >> some > >> terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out > >> something > >> we've said that could be offensive. > >> > >> Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm > still > >> trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the > implications > >> of my > >> actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some > of what > >> Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: > >> > >> An excerpt: > >> > >> "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of > being > >> able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon > on the > >> street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is > not > >> possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial > >> minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that > >> over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have > >> most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, > as > >> it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics > list > >> is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely > >> heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted > down." > >> > >> and > >> > >> "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he > was > >> operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. > After > >> the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I > >> fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For > me, > >> the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to > >> outweigh the benefits." > >> > >> Please read the entire note here: > >> > http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html > >> > >> and > >> > >> "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact > that he > >> found > >> close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential > >> through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this > >> disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of > Listserv > >> reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the > >> Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally > >> disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim > >> desired. > >> > >> Such is often the case with almost all message boards > >> and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism > >> and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants > >> on the vast majority of message boards." > >> > >> > >> > > http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs- and-listservs.html > >> > >> > >> Be well, > >> > >> Amy > >> > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Recent work > >> > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >> > >> > >> > >> Amy's Alias > >> > >> http://amyking.org/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:27:09 -0500 From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List I'm very tired of this, but I do appreciate your more reasonable tone. One might have hoped that a discussion like this would lead, as I=20 think Steve Vincent attempted, to a broader discussion of the=20 remnants of difficult histories that all languages retain. What you=20 or I or the list think about Nigerian scam will have little influence=20 on broader usage. It's different in kind, I think, from current use=20 of the word arab in the US, which is far more toxic than Nigerian=20 scam and far more globalized, and also not something we can=20 conveniently drop, as I suspect that with the passage of time=20 Nigerian scam will be. So that's where my question, to myself as well as to the discussion=20 at large, leads. OK, arab can't be dropped from usage because it's=20 what a large number of people call themselves, and the obloquy=20 attached to it will pass away as circumstances change, hopefully in=20 our lifetimes. But what about Steve's example, or the ones I=20 mentioned, which for most of us don't carry over to a broader=20 prejudice? What about words like "bugger," originally Bulgar? We=20 cleanse the language, unconsciously, all the time--Dutch treat is the=20 sole remnant in common use of a large amount of nastiness from 17th=20 Century Anglo-Dutch wars. So, my question is about the conscious cleansing of language--the=20 sense of what's appropriate usage, and what merits the proverbial=20 soaping. We don't have an official body, like the Academie Francaise,=20 in charge of this (not that the Academie has been particularly=20 successful of late--remember the circumflex?), and the=20 dictionary-makers, who used to take it upon themselves to decide,=20 have become increasingly democratic. Any such decision involves the=20 ceding of linguistic choice. Which means it's a matter of=20 case-by-case discussion, and case-by-case use. Unless we want the=20 good old days of not very long ago, when books could be banned for=20 officially unacceptable words. Peace. I really do have other things to do. Mark At 03:59 PM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: >Mark, > >I'm writing as a member of this listserv community who is slightly=20 >appalled and very bewildered by the lack of care & concern evidenced=20 >sent in a number of replies to Oha. > >And yes, I have indeed thought much of Oha's request and analyzed my=20 >experience with the term, which is limited too. You might recall=20 >that my initial response to Oha was one of surprise, apology, and a=20 >note to say that I hadn't thought of the implications of using the term. > >Since then, my conclusion is that a) all email scams do not=20 >originate in Nigeria, but in fact, originate from everywhere,=20 >including the U.S., b) I don't refer to email scams that originate=20 >from elsewhere as "British Scams" or "American scams", and c) isn't=20 >it simply easier, and more respectful as per Oha's request, to refer=20 >to these scams as "email scams", both here in this community and=20 >elsewhere? How hard is it to acknowledge the risk, make the=20 >switch, and let Oha know his note made me think? Why must he=20 >receive belligerence? I'm amazed at his consistent grace and=20 >civility through all of this. > >My sense is, after much discussion with my students about the topic,=20 >that the average American doesn't know much about Nigeria or=20 >Nigerian culture, myself included. So why would I risk perpetuating=20 >the negativity that goes with calling email scams, "Nigerian=20 >scams?" Similarly, many Americans didn't have much reference when=20 >they heard the word "Arab." Post 9/11, we've got "Arab terrorists,"=20 >which has pretty much become synonymous with "Arabs" in our culture=20 >now (of course, generally speaking), and look at the negativity that=20 >term generates. > >Are all terrorists "Arab"? Are all Arabs "terrorists"? Are all=20 >email scams perpetuated by "Nigerians?" Are all Nigerians email=20 >scammers? When I find it difficult to come up with much to say=20 >about Nigeria, I don't want my limited vocabulary to be about=20 >Nigerian scams after all, nor do I want to reinforce that vocabulary=20 >elsewhere. This was no great leap nor grave concession. Moreover,=20 >what grieves me, again, are the resistances to the validity of Oha's=20 >request sent in the face of what could only have been a difficult=20 >one to make. And now, the refusal to acknowledge that this list has=20 >a history of such resistance--and that we may be carrying on tradition. > >Be well, > >Amy > >_______ > > >Recent work >http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >Amy's Alias >http://amyking.org/ > > > >On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Mark Weiss >wrote: > > > I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which might > > account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might want to avoid > > condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our vulnerability?") >and > > extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations of views you disagree > > with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not a flame war, and >there's no > > need to light fires. > > > > Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is >the essence > > of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and refers to a >group > > with a long history of discrimination, characterizing it in terms that >have > > caused enormous misery. If it were a more recent usage we most of us would > > try to reform it out of existence, but the word is so deeply embedded in >the > > language that it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with >the > > Roma, though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's >even harder to > > imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a different > > order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this discussion, by >the > > way. Its origin is neither racist nor anti-Nigerian, and its use is >limited > > denotatively and hasn't bled, and isn't likely to, into attitudes >towards > > Nigerians in general. Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds >it > > offensive, it remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. > > > > Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree, but > > discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a >writers' > > list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us separate the > > apples and oranges. > > > > Mark > > > > PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age more > > richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've never >been > > there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those attitudes. When I >was in > > high school a Nigerian exchange student lived with us for a few months. We > > became good friends. His father was head master of a very English-style > > boarding school, purportedly the most prestigious in the country, and Aloy > > regaled me with stories of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke > > Latin, which I envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer > > bottle with his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the Biafra > > war, like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, >when > > separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative > > convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem Hausa of > > the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns, though most of the > > resources and money were in the south. Much of the US support for Biafra > > was, I think, motivated by a sense that the Christian Ibo were like >"us." > > Which is not to negate the considerable pain that caused the Biafrans to > > attempt to secede. New York's WBAI reported the bombings and >starvation by > > live radio feeds. It was horrific--over a million people died. Since then > > I've followed the often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm >aware can't > > be the whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the short >end. > > > > Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book >"Walking," which I'm > > proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my imagined >Nigeria. > > > > None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the > > limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. > > > > > > At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: > > > >> Mark, > >> > >> Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this >listserv, have > >> joined a community of writers. Self righteous indignation as a >response to > >> someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of >race > >> doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum. > >> > >> As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other >members, > >> even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other member's >concerns? > >> Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language works, esp >when > >> we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is >to > >> express his consternation over the use of a term within this >community? Do > >> we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members? > >> > >> You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist > >> implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that >the > >> usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did >not > >> warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. > >> > >> It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is >"unintentional" or not > >> aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business of >language,' > >> regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it >simply > >> shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is >exactly the > >> abstracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets >us into > >> all manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being > >> "misunderstood." > >> > >> Be well, > >> > >> Amy > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Recent work > >> > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >> > >> > >> > >> Amy's Alias > >> > >> http://amyking.org/ > >> > >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> Amy: > >> > >> Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. > >> Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we >do. > >> > >> Mark > >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: > >> From: amy king > >> Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM > >> > >> From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another >list > >> member > >> found problematic. The latter said so. > >> > >> Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote > >> strains > >> of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my >intentions > >> weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms >exist & > >> here's a list. > >> > >> Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic >and > >> noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. > >> > >> The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be >... > >> worth > >> ignoring. > >> In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those >same > >> institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its >underlying > >> sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to >calls > >> for > >> sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or >were > >> unaware > >> of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for >sensitivity > >> should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being >human > >> and > >> possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls >being > >> seen > >> as > >> the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his >intellectual > >> prowess. > >> > >> This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the > >> ensuing > >> discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist > >> sentiment > >> and > >> the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the >implications of > >> some > >> terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out > >> something > >> we've said that could be offensive. > >> > >> Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm >still > >> trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the >implications > >> of my > >> actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some >of what > >> Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: > >> > >> An excerpt: > >> > >> "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of >being > >> able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon >on the > >> street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is >not > >> possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial > >> minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that > >> over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have > >> most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, >as > >> it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics >list > >> is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely > >> heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted >down." > >> > >> and > >> > >> "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he >was > >> operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. >After > >> the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I > >> fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For >me, > >> the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to > >> outweigh the benefits." > >> > >> Please read the entire note here: > >> >http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html > >> > >> and > >> > >> "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact >that he > >> found > >> close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential > >> through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this > >> disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of >Listserv > >> reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the > >> Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally > >> disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim > >> desired. > >> > >> Such is often the case with almost all message boards > >> and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism > >> and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants > >> on the vast majority of message boards." > >> > >> > >> >http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs -and-listservs.html > >> > >> > >> Be well, > >> > >> Amy > >> > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Recent work > >> > >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > >> > >> > >> > >> Amy's Alias > >> > >> http://amyking.org/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > >-- >Obododimma Oha >Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >Dept. of English >University of Ibadan >Nigeria > >& > >Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >University of Ibadan > >Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=20 >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:41:32 +0100 From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List Those figures are totally wrong and have been seriously contested in Nigeria. The best place to go for such statistics is the relevant ministry of the Nigerian government and not Wiki. We know the uses and abuses of statistics! I don't know how those sources got their figures -- I suspect they simply saw every person saying salaam alaikum or putting on the long gown as "Muslim". Another point is that the Hausa are different from the Fulani, but some people tend to conflate the two groups. It is actually the Fulani (whose leader Othman dan Fodio conquered Hausaland in a jihad in the precolonial era) that are predominantly Muslims. I am away from Nigeria at the moment and cannot reach more reliable database. The point I had made in my previous note -- and which is more important -- is that Hausa and Igbo -- cannot be assigned to particular religions. It would be fallacious to say "Muslim Hausa" when some Hausa people are not Muslims. As a matter of fact, it is a form of assimilation that the non-Muslim Hausa in Nigeria have all along tried to resist. The Igbo society, too, is multi-religious and not necessarily "Christian". You should also know that today, in Nigeria, terms like "Muslim Hausa" and "Christian Igbo" are viewed (especially by the government) as inciting ethno-religious prejudice and violence. We, in Nigerian, have had series of religious crises and bloodshed, and would view any discourse that divides the nation along religious lines as wicked and anti-Nigerian. Tomorrow, if you are appointed American Ambassador to Nigeria, Nigerians would not treat you as their friend if in addressing them you use terms such as "Muslim Hausa" and "Christian Igbo" and cite Wiki as your source! My best regards, Mark. -- Obododimma. On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 9:59 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I apologize for my spelling. Ibo was the standard spelling back then in the > US media. Igbo and the half a dozen variant spellings I know mostly from > Cuban sources, and I thought they referred to a different people. > > This from > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Nigeria#Religions_.282000_e stimate.29, > "Demographics of Nigeria," whose accuracy I of course can't vouch for: > > > Religious Affiliation Among Major Ethnic Groups > > Source: > http://www.worldchristiandatabase.org > * Hausa: 25,900,527 (Muslims 99.90%, Christians 0.10%) > * Yoruba: 22,921,473 (Christians 60.00%, Muslims 36.38%, Animists 3.00%, > Non Religious 0.50%, Baha'is 0.07%, Atheists 0.05%) > * Igbo: 22,926,340 (Christians 97.00%, Animists 2.00%, Non Religious > 0.80%, Atheists 0.10%, Baha'is 0.10%) > > I've left out the rest of the table. If you have better sources, I'd be > happy to learn. I'm of course aware that religion was used to manipulate > international opinion during the war. > > I learn from others all the time, usually through civil discussion. Like > most of us, it's not the first time that I've thought about these issues, > and what I use of the language has changed, in part because of input from > others. I remain unconvinced in this instance. I don't think, as you > suggest, that that's because of a character flaw. > > I'm content to let this discussion end, but I'm not content to be insulted. > If you want to have at me again, please take it backchannel. Front or > backchannel, you might want to read your posts before sending them. > > Mark > > > > At 01:52 PM 11/24/2008, you wrote: > >> I didn't want to come into this debate, but it seems to me that Mark Weiss >> really has an orientation in language use that he thinks is entirely >> healthy >> and cannot accommodate to others. Quite unfortunate. I thought that, by >> referring to his age, he should be helping us (who are supposedly younger) >> to be a little more cautious in our use of words. I was amazed when I came >> across terms such as "Moslem Hausa" and "Christian Ibo" in his post that I >> am responding to. Shocking! Maybe he doesn't know that millions of Hausa >> people are Christians! And maybe he doesn't know that some Igbo (not >> "Ibo") >> people are Muslims (one of my cousins is!), adherents of African >> Traditional >> Religion, Eckists, Guru Maharajists, etc. How then can he characterize a >> whole ethnic group like the Hausa as being Muslim? Yes, it is true that >> many >> Hausa people are Muslims, but that does not make the whole group Muslim. I >> am afraid that in using the term, Mark has become a victim of the >> political >> rhetoric that tries to use religion as shibboleth. It is such shibboleth >> that Ojukwu's war rhetoric tried to arm itself with, to attract >> international Christian sympathy during the war. I am Igbo myself and did >> support the Biafran cause, but now, as somebody with a PhD in Stylistics >> (specifically in War Rhetoric and a criminologist), I can, without >> appearing >> disloyal to Biafra, tell what Ojukwu was trying to do when he used the >> terms >> "Muslim Hausa Fulani" or "Islamic North". It would be a pity if the >> politician is now more clever than the poet the vates, the seer, the >> everything! But Mark is not a politician and should know the cost of words >> in the marketplace of meaning making.Mark, please, don't take offence at >> this: think seriously about your tendency to stick to your views, and >> refusal to welcome the fact that you could learn from another person!Be >> well, poet. >> Obododimma. >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Mark Weiss >> wrote: >> >> > I presume that you write as list owner, not as list member, which might >> > account for the ex-cathedra tone. In either case, you might want to >> avoid >> > condescending (even therapeutic--"admitting our vulnerability?") and >> > extraordinarily self-righteous characterizations of views you disagree >> > with--they're a form of ad homina. This is not a flame war, and there's >> no >> > need to light fires. >> > >> > Stephen Vincent, in raising "gypped," captured what I think is the >> essence >> > of the issue. The word's origin is profoundly racist, and refers to a >> group >> > with a long history of discrimination, characterizing it in terms that >> have >> > caused enormous misery. If it were a more recent usage we most of us >> would >> > try to reform it out of existence, but the word is so deeply embedded in >> the >> > language that it's hard to imagine that many even associate it with the >> > Roma, though I'd guess the Roma aren't happy about it. It's even harder >> to >> > imagine it disappearing from the language. Nigerian scam is of a >> different >> > order--a term that I doubt I've ever used before this discussion, by the >> > way. Its origin is neither racist nor anti-Nigerian, and its use is >> limited >> > denotatively and hasn't bled, and isn't likely to, into attitudes >> towards >> > Nigerians in general. Though I'm of course sorry that Obododimma finds >> it >> > offensive, it remains the very circumscribed term that we've got. >> > >> > Distinctions are what discussion is about. We don't need to agree, but >> > discussing a contested term I would think is one function of a writers' >> > list. Examples are a part of the discussion--they help us separate the >> > apples and oranges. >> > >> > Mark >> > >> > PS. I do have attitudes towards Nigeria, perhaps because of my age more >> > richly textured than those of many on the list, although I've never been >> > there. The term Nigerian scam isn't a part of those attitudes. When I >> was in >> > high school a Nigerian exchange student lived with us for a few months. >> We >> > became good friends. His father was head master of a very English-style >> > boarding school, purportedly the most prestigious in the country, and >> Aloy >> > regaled me with stories of student pranks and harsh discipline. He spoke >> > Latin, which I envied, though not as much as his ability to open a beer >> > bottle with his teeth. Aloy was Ibo, and we lost contact during the >> Biafra >> > war, like many of Nigeria's woes a delayed product of colonial rule, >> when >> > separate entities and cultures were yoked together for administrative >> > convenience. It was something of a proxy war, as well. The Moslem Hausa >> of >> > the dry north were the majority, and had all the guns, though most of >> the >> > resources and money were in the south. Much of the US support for Biafra >> > was, I think, motivated by a sense that the Christian Ibo were like >> "us." >> > Which is not to negate the considerable pain that caused the Biafrans to >> > attempt to secede. New York's WBAI reported the bombings and starvation >> by >> > live radio feeds. It was horrific--over a million people died. Since >> then >> > I've followed the often-unpleasant news from Nigeria, which I'm aware >> can't >> > be the whole picture. In an unfair world West Africans are on the short >> end. >> > >> > Steve Vincent's luminous "African Cycle," in his book "Walking," which >> I'm >> > proud to have published,formed a more pleasant part of my imagined >> Nigeria. >> > >> > None of this has to do with what was a discussion of language and the >> > limited flexibility oif language, which is why I didn't raise it. >> > >> > >> > At 11:56 AM 11/24/2008, amy king wrote: >> > >> >> Mark, >> >> >> >> Yes, we're writers who, by signing up to be members of this listserv, >> have >> >> joined a community of writers. Self righteous indignation as a >> response to >> >> someone asking for a little sensitivity when it comes to issues of race >> >> doesn't exactly work towards respecting group decorum. >> >> >> >> As members of this community, do we care if we ostracize other members, >> >> even if only to maintain our right to be obtuse to other member's >> concerns? >> >> Are we so certain of our positions on exactly how language works, esp >> when >> >> we use it, that we must let Obododimma Oha know just how wrong he is to >> >> express his consternation over the use of a term within this community? >> Do >> >> we even bother to wonder if we've insulted other list members? >> >> >> >> You may disagree with Oha and determine that the term has no racist >> >> implications, but the fact that, as a list member, he pointed out that >> the >> >> usage carries offense to him is a valid complaint that certainly did >> not >> >> warrant some of the opportunistic bravado sent in reply. >> >> >> >> It's easy to dismiss others when the offense is "unintentional" or not >> >> aimed at us. And easy to write it off as the 'messy business of >> language,' >> >> regardless of just who we're using it around and who we think it simply >> >> shouldn't offend, despite their saying otherwise -- which is exactly >> the >> >> abstracted mentality that ignores who we're talking with and gets us >> into >> >> all manner of nastiness on a daily basis in the name of being >> >> "misunderstood." >> >> >> >> Be well, >> >> >> >> Amy >> >> >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Mark Weiss wrote: >> >> Amy: >> >> >> >> Still more boiled down. We're writers. We talk about language. >> >> Sometimes we disagree. It's a messy business, but it's what we do. >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, amy king wrote: >> >> From: amy king >> >> Subject: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List >> >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:59 PM >> >> >> >> From my boiled-down perspective, one person used a term that another >> list >> >> member >> >> found problematic. The latter said so. >> >> >> >> Several list members reacted to the questioning of said term with rote >> >> strains >> >> of resistance -- i.e. the don't-censor-me mentality, my intentions >> >> weren't racist, other questionable-&-possibly-racist terms exist & >> >> here's a list. >> >> >> >> Some list members acknowledged that the use of the term is problematic >> and >> >> noted the need to be sensitive about using such terms. >> >> >> >> The aforementioned list members found the sympathetic response to be >> ... >> >> worth >> >> ignoring. >> >> In a world where institutions were built on racism and where those same >> >> institutions continue to reflect & rely on that racism & its underlying >> >> sentiments (whether you're a skinhead or not) we should be open to >> calls >> >> for >> >> sensitivity, even if we didn't mean to imply anything racist or were >> >> unaware >> >> of how our language use might be problematic. Such calls for >> sensitivity >> >> should certainly not be dismissed just because they are about being >> human >> >> and >> >> possibly even admitting our vulnerability --rather than such calls >> being >> >> seen >> >> as >> >> the usual targets to attack so that one might show off his intellectual >> >> prowess. >> >> >> >> This kind of discussion has carried on before on the list, and in the >> >> ensuing >> >> discussion, many have left due to the expression of further racist >> >> sentiment >> >> and >> >> the denial of granting that a) we might be ignorant of the implications >> of >> >> some >> >> terms and b) maybe we should be more sensitive when someone points out >> >> something >> >> we've said that could be offensive. >> >> >> >> Despite how often we forget it, history tells us something. I'm still >> >> trying to learn, and if admitting ignorance, even about the >> implications >> >> of my >> >> actions helps, then I'll pull out the mirror. Take a peek at some of >> what >> >> Tim Yu and others have said about the last race discussion on Poetics: >> >> >> >> An excerpt: >> >> >> >> "As an Asian American, I often have the (dubious) privilege of being >> >> able to "pass" in everday life, with my race unremarked upon on the >> >> street or in my workplace. There are moments, however, when this is not >> >> possible--when I become aware (often uncomfortably) that I am a racial >> >> minority. I am saddened, and more than a bit shocked, to realize that >> >> over the past few years, it is on the Poetics list itself that I have >> >> most frequently experienced this awareness of my own race--of being, as >> >> it were, the only Asian American in the room. Frankly, the Poetics list >> >> is still dominated by the voices of white men; other voices are rarely >> >> heard, and when they are, they tend to be ignored or shouted down." >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> "In last week's discussions, one list member noted that he was >> >> operating on the discussion that no one on this list is a racist. After >> >> the many, many incidents of anti-Asian rhetoric I have seen here, I >> >> fear that I can no longer be so confident about that sentiment. For me, >> >> the costs of remaining a member of the Poetics list have come to >> >> outweigh the benefits." >> >> >> >> Please read the entire note here: >> >> >> http://tympan.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-i-finally-quit-poetics-list.html >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> "It appears to me that Tim's sadness results from the fact that he >> >> found >> >> close-mindedness and felt an absence of transformative potential >> >> through the discussions on the Listserv. One can easily find this >> >> disappointment justified merely by noting the relative lack of Listserv >> >> reactions to Tim's long, intelligent, and heartfelt post on the >> >> Listserv. The Listserv has clearly intellectually and emotionally >> >> disengaged itself from him. It is not the vibrant community that Tim >> >> desired. >> >> >> >> Such is often the case with almost all message boards >> >> and listservs. Look around the internet, and you will find that racism >> >> and sexism, largely divorced from intellectual content, are constants >> >> on the vast majority of message boards." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://asianamericanpoetry.blogspot.com/2005/03/of-message-boards-blogs- and-listservs.html >> >> >> >> >> >> Be well, >> >> >> >> Amy >> >> >> >> >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> >> guidelines >> >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> >> guidelines >> >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> >> >> >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> > >> > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Obododimma Oha >> Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics >> Dept. of English >> University of Ibadan >> Nigeria >> >> & >> >> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >> University of Ibadan >> >> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >> +234 805 350 6604. >> >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=20 Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:10:13 -0600 From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets Unfortunately, the American language writers are much more well known than the Canadian. Furthermore, it is much easier in Vancouver to have knowledge due to the presence of Kootenay.=20 John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of George Bowering Sent: November 24, 2008 1:23 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets I mean, I couldnt believe that you yourself didn't know the field as =20 well as anyone,. gb On Nov 24, 2008, at 5:28 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's =20 > face it, > you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the reception of > language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, =20 > right in > your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august =20 > halls > most of Canada's language writers emanated. > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) =20 > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of George Bowering > Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > > You're kidding! > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > >> I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of >> Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down >> Canadian >> language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any >> Canadian >> language poets. Thanks. >> John Cunningham >> >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html >> > > G. Harry Bowering, OC > Worth the trouble. > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: =20 > 03/07/2008 > 7:19 PM > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > welcome.html > G. Bowering Knows which door the tiger's behind. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 03/07/2008 7:19 PM =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:28:46 -0000 From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List << a) all email scams do not originate in Nigeria, but in fact, originate from=20 everywhere, including the U.S., >> Who's arguing this? But what we're referring to is not simply any scam, not simply even any=20 email scam, but to a quite prominent sub-variety -- the Spanish Prisoner Email Scam. That would be an accurate way of referring to it, but somewhat cumbersome. So what to name it? I have to say, I'm surprised that no one has taken up what seems to me=20 glaringly obvious, that the verbal *content of the text of the emails, from=20 the start and continuing, is glaringly racist, in the originals and all=20 sub-varieties, playing on stereotypical Western attitudes to the English linguistic competence of African first-language speakers. {Jeezus fucking wept, we're arguing over what we *call a series=20 Web-broadcasted texts that are *predicated, in their content, in a=20 singularly slimy and racist use of implied linguistic responses. Leave=20 aside the moral content of the texts themselves. Angels weep.} If I had to put my money where my mouth is, the texts are written by=20 highly-competent native English language speakers writing in blackface. And=20 most likely, originating ultimately in the West. << b) I don't refer to email scams that originate from elsewhere as "British=20 Scams" or "American scams", >> What I am currently deluged with, in requests from Lloyds or Abbey National,=20 for my bank details, are UK English region targeted scams. Calling them "British" isn't racist (though it might have aspects of that)=20 but blurs the fact that email scams hitting my Inbox are becoming more and=20 more targetted, and misses the point that these scams are angled at a=20 specifically *English (not a more generally UK British -- Scots or Welsh)=20 audience. << and c) isn't it simply easier, and more respectful as per Oha's request, to=20 refer to these scams as "email scams", >> Except that we're talking about a *subset of a variety of email scams. I'd=20 be happy to have a term that avoids "Nigerian" or even 419, but which=20 acknowledges the history of not simply the activity of that scam but its current manifestation in cyberspace -- SPES[cam]? As a last point, I'm dubious about Mark's worry about the connection between=20 being gypped, and the Rom. I think this is a false parallel between being=20 gypped and jewing someone down. [Aside -- Mark, I'll go into details backchannel if you want about my doubts=20 about the etymology of "gypped" as linked to the Rom -- the OED supports you, but the dates are totally wrong. I think this is an example of reverse=20 folk-etymolygy.] Robin=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:05:18 -0800 From: Jerome Rothenberg Subject: Millennium-3 preview: Sousandrade A good chunk of "Wall Street Inferno" by the great Brazilian =3D late-romantic/early-modernist Sousandrade appears on the University of = =3D California Press weblog as a preview of its appearance in Poems for the =3D Millennium, volume 3: The University of California Book of Romantic and =3D Postromantic Poetry =3D (http://ucpress.typepad.com/ucpresslog/2008/10/wall-street-inferno-by-so u=3D s=3DE2ndrade.html). A different excerpt and the commentary from PM3 by = me =3D and Jeffrey Robinson is on my blog at =3D http://poemsandpoetics.blogspot.com/2008/10/reconfiguring-romanticism-16 .=3D html, along with other previews from the big book. First copies of the book have now reached me, well in advance of the =3D mid-January pub date, so that Jeffrey and I are now considering readings =3D & signings to mark the occasion. Jerome Rothenberg "There is an avant-garde that cannot be defeated." 1026 San Abella M. Giroud, quoted in J.R., "Autobiography" =3D =3D20 Encinitas, CA 92024 =3D20 (760) 436-9923 =3D20 jrothenberg at cox.net =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:45:30 -0600 From: Tony Trigilio Subject: Spring 2008 Readings, Columbia College Chicago Spring 2008 Poetry Reading Series Columbia College Chicago All readings free and open to the public For more information: (312) 369-8819 ______________________________________ COURT GREEN (Dossier: Letters) and FENCE reading and release party (AWP Off-Site Reading) Thursday, February 12, 2009, 6:30 p.m. Film Row Cinema =20 1104 South Wabash Avenue, 8th floor=20 BRANDI HOMAN & JAMES SHEA Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 5:30 p.m. Ferguson Theater 600 South Michigan Avenue, 1st floor=20 KIMIKO HAHN & TRACI MORRIS Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 5:30 p.m. Sherwood Conservatory Recital Hall 1312 South Michigan Avenue=20 10th ANNUAL COLUMBIA COLLEGE CITYWIDE UNDERGRADUATE POETRY FESTIVAL Thursday, April 2, 2009, 5:30 p.m. =20 Conaway Center 1104 South Wabash, 1st Floor=20 MICHAEL BURKARD & RON PADGETT Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 5:30 p.m. Film Row Cinema 1104 South Wabash Avenue, 8th floor=20 COLUMBIA POETRY REVIEW (#22) reading and release party Thursday, April 30, 2009, 5:30 p.m. Sherwood Conservatory Recital Hall 1312 South Michigan Avenue =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:52:38 -0500 From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: What we're called, was Re: David just calling cops pigs was bad enough they weren't all bad and pigs themselves tho a trifle messy=20 are very nice orderly and smart creatures tasty as well ah language the jew thing the jap thing the mick thing like lenny bruce said if we hadn't paid so much attention to it=20 it mighta gone away On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:35:40 -0500 Ryan Daley writes: > Obododimma & Others, >=20 > I have taken much from this discussion. I think just talking about=20 > this, no > matter the timbre of our responses, has given me the chance to=20 > discuss > language and its repercussions...something I rarely get to do=20 > otherwise. >=20 > -Ryan >=20 > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:38 AM, Obododimma Oha =20 > wrote: >=20 > > Well, I guess I have I have made my point in this thread and=20 > cannot compel > > anyone to give that point a second thought. By writing about "some=20 > wars > > starting from recklessness in the use of language", I was not=20 > necessarily > > addressing your analysis, or your use of words. I was simply=20 > referring to > > the orientation of > > say-it-the-way-you-like-it-don't-care-about-what-anyone-feels.=20 > It's good > > that Anny Ballardini gave an example of a personal experience he=20 > had when > > he > > used the expression "working as hard as a negro". For him, he=20 > didn't mean > > any prejudice. But someone there saw something else in the analogy=20 > and got > > offended. And what did Ballardini do next?One has to decide for=20 > oneself how > > to manage one's language and situations that unfold from language=20 > use in a > > world where people indeed see language as social semiotic. > > For me, this is where the thread ends. > > > > Regards. > > Obododimma. > > > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Mark Weiss=20 > > > wrote: > > > > > It's always interesting to be the butt of sarcasm, but accuracy=20 > also > > > counts. I was I thought pointing out the large gray areas, and=20 > talking > > about > > > appropriateness (albeit with tongue wandering into cheek at=20 > times). I > > doubt > > > that I've caused too many wars today. > > > > > > But your examples present some interesting issues. Policeman=20 > became > > > obsolete as a generic term when women were allowed to join=20 > police forces, > > > and other terms that cover both genders, like cops, police, or=20 > police > > > officers, took over, because it would have been absurd to do=20 > otherwise. > > But > > > we refer to policemen and policewomen when appropriate--it's=20 > not > > > anachronistic to point out a policewoman to someone who needs=20 > help, if > > > that's who's available. The word stewardess, which is the term I=20 > think > > you > > > were searching for, became an issue because it had an=20 > extraprofessional > > use > > > as fetish. That survives to an extent, but probably more than=20 > the word > > > itself, which dates back to when cabin crews were exclusively=20 > female (and > > > exclusively young--there were age discrimination suits about=20 > that). > > Poetess > > > had largely fallen out of fashion by the time modern feminism=20 > arrived, > > > relegated to designating only some women poets. And it's a good=20 > thing > > that > > > it died--the attitude expressed by the word had become=20 > poisonous. > > > > > > These are all questions of gender, in a language that has become=20 > less and > > > less gendered over the past thousand years. It's not something=20 > that > > speakers > > > of more gendered languages worry about too much, because to do=20 > something > > > about it would require the restructuring of grammar. Airplane=20 > crews are > > > still hotes and hotesses, actors are comedians and comediennes,=20 > etc, and > > the > > > French sun is masculine and the moon feminine, while in German=20 > it's the > > > reverse. So the battles are fought elsewhere. In modern English=20 > there > > were > > > so few distinct masculine and feminine forms for human=20 > occupations that > > most > > > of the work of remaking the language would involve the renaming=20 > of the > > > beasts--stallion and mare, buck and doe, etc. Don't mistake=20 > me--I'm > > plenty > > > aware of gender issues. I'm talking about the genders of=20 > articles, nouns, > > > pronouns and adjectives. > > > > > > A travel article in today's New York Times web edition, "The=20 > Proud > > Indians > > > of Chiapas," has attracted a lot of comments, mostly about the=20 > use of the > > > word Indian. Many of the respondents pointed out that in=20 > Chiapas, and > > Latin > > > America in general, the (recently) preferred term is "indigena"=20 > (which is > > > both masculine and feminine, by the way). The objection noted to=20 > Indian > > is > > > that it's inaccurate. In Spanish it's worse than that--Indio is=20 > often a > > > derogatory term, and India in some places is a synonym for=20 > whore. But the > > > article is written for gringos. In the US there's no unanimity=20 > among > > (let's > > > call them) first peoples about what to call themselves. Native=20 > American > > > doesn't seem to have caught on, though it appeared to for a=20 > while, and > > > members of a lot of tribes prefer to be called American Indians=20 > and don't > > > mind that their reservations are generically called Indian=20 > reservations. > > In > > > the country at large Indian is nowhere near as derogatory as=20 > Indio or > > India. > > > It apparently didn't raise eyebrows among the Times staffers. > > > > > > It's not up to me, it's up to the people so designated, who have=20 > a long > > > history of persecution by whatever name. Not so the compound=20 > noun > > Nigerian > > > scam. It's hard for me to believe that anyone uses it with=20 > derogation of > > > Nigerians in general in mind, and I don't think there's a shred=20 > of > > > antiNigerian sentiment in the US, where most people would be=20 > hard put to > > say > > > what a Nigerian is. > > > > > > But ok, what about the name Nigeria--Blackland? Is that an=20 > acceptable > > > inheritance from the colonialist past? > > > > > > If this thread continues, it would be nice if it involved=20 > discussion > > rather > > > than verbal violence. The issues are interesting in themselves. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 02:53 AM 11/18/2008, Obododimma Oha wrote: > > > > > >> Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language=20 > does n > > >> Interesting argument. You are simply telling us that language=20 > does not > > >> change, or should not be allowed to change. People who live in=20 > different > > >> times have different tastes and different responses. One would=20 > simply be > > >> anachronistic and socially unacceptable if one, for instance,=20 > continues > > >> using the term "policeman" (instead of "police officer"), "air=20 > hostess" > > >> (instead of "flight attendant" or "cabin crew") or "poetess"=20 > (instead of > > >> simply "poet"). I am surprised that you think that filtering=20 > out words > > >> processed as offensive in a given period is a waste of time.=20 > Perhaps you > > are > > >> also saying that it is wrong for POETICS to rule that it does=20 > not and > > would > > >> not publish flame messages. Perhaps some of us can now dispense=20 > with > > >> communicative competence and facework. Little wonder some wars=20 > in the > > world > > >> start from recklessness in the use of words. --- Obododimma=20 > Oha. > > >> ________________________________ > > >> > > > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.=20 > Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Obododimma Oha > > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > > Dept. of English > > University of Ibadan > > Nigeria > > > > & > > > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > > University of Ibadan > > > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > > +234 805 350 6604. > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=20 > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > >=20 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 >=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:58:56 -0500 From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Discussions of Race and the Poetics List On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Ryan Daley wrote: > Amy & Others, > > I still feel like there's been a misreading of what the term "Nigerian > email > scam" refers to: [very long prior discussion snipped] For heaven's sake, people, how hard is it to refer to 419 letters as just that, as Ryan suggests, or say something like "so-called 'Nigerian' email scams," with quotation marks around "Nigerian" to make it clear that one does not personally believe all Nigerian individuals, or the country of Nigeria as a whole, to be engaged in scamming? Little bitty scare quotes. So simple. So few pixels. And then we don't have to get into lengthily digressive discussions of ethnicity and religion as a way of justifying the original use of the term, yes? Gwyn, end-of-semester-exhausted, McVay =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ------------------------------ End of POETICS Digest - 23 Nov 2008 to 24 Nov 2008 (#2008-312) ************************************************************** =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:03:53 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anny Ballardini Subject: We are all dancing again! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://saidwhatwesaid.com/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:52:51 -0500 Reply-To: az421@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Rob McLennan Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets to a degree, but its also something you learn through doing the reading; some of us are far away from vancouver manage to figure some of it out.... > >Unfortunately, the American language writers are much more well known than >the Canadian. Furthermore, it is much easier in Vancouver to have knowledge >due to the presence of Kootenay. >John Cunningham > >-----Original Message----- >From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >Behalf Of George Bowering >Sent: November 24, 2008 1:23 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > >I mean, I couldnt believe that you yourself didn't know the field as >well as anyone,. > >gb > > >On Nov 24, 2008, at 5:28 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > >> Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's >> face it, >> you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the reception of >> language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, >> right in >> your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august >> halls >> most of Canada's language writers emanated. >> John Cunningham >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >> Behalf Of George Bowering >> Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets >> >> You're kidding! >> >> >> On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: >> >>> I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the University of >>> Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track down >>> Canadian >>> language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any >>> Canadian >>> language poets. Thanks. >>> John Cunningham >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >>> welcome.html >>> >> >> G. Harry Bowering, OC >> Worth the trouble. >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: >> 03/07/2008 >> 7:19 PM >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html >> > >G. Bowering >Knows which door the tiger's behind. > > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >Internal Virus Database is out of date. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 03/07/2008 >7:19 PM > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > -- writer/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project ...novel - white www.abovegroundpress.blogspot.com * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:07:23 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?= Subject: New poems by Jennifer L. Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline _______________ Jennifer L. Williams is a performance-artist and innovative poet based in Edinburgh, Scotland. She founded the arts-cabaret "Silencio" and is very active with the Scottish Poetry Library and managing numerous events for the Edinburgh "Fringe" Festival. To examine a showcase of selected new poems by Jennifer L. Williams, go to ... http://www.laurahird.com/showcase/jlwilliams.html And to read Jennifer's additional new poems, go to ... http://jlwpoetry.googlepages.com/ Respectfully, S=E9amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:32:24 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: luke daly Subject: Roberto Harrison's reflector MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit House Press is pleased to release Roberto Harrison's reflector. reflector is #7 in the arrow as aarow series, edited by Michael Slosek and Luke Daly. Books are hand sewn, hand printed, and beautiful in a rough and tumble kind of way. Please visit www.housepress.blogspot.com to purchase this and other books in the series. Thanks! Luke and Michael ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 06:22:23 -0800 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Black Robert Journal #2 is LIVE - Interview w/ Malay Roychoudhury MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable He who jumps into the void, owes no explanation to those who watch.=97Jean = Luc Goddard Black Robert Journal #2 is Live This issue includes: Writing Andy Nicholson Ren Powell Christ Mulrooney Bobby Lurie Renne Emerson rob mcclennan Rosamond Zimmerman Kisten Orser Matt Sutin Michael Montlack Visual Art Samit Roy Matina Stamatakis Interviews Malay Roychoudhury - Part One Samit Roy Matina Stamatakis =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:51:09 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Someone else lives in this house MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *Someone else lives in this house* - Peter Ciccariello Hope Street, Poems from Providence Invisible Notes ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:46:09 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" In-Reply-To: <599190.10820.qm@web46209.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my own responses to beautiful work vary. sometimes i am not moved to do anything about it, with it, for it, to it, through it. just enjoy it. and, if appropriate, send the author a message saying i appreciate it. sometimes i tell all sorts of people about it. sometimes the work relates somehow to my own and it helps me with my road map. to me, it's beautiful and tragic that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. beautiful because we ourselves always have something to do with our own experience; to experience beauty is to know that it is in us to experience it and we share in that beauty; tragic because that beauty is non-existant to many other people, as though that beauty were less than a ghost to them, were nothing at all, not merely imperceptible but utterly non-existant. so that what one person finds beautiful and values so highly is ridiculous to another. as though, in esteeming beauty, we value what to us is worthy and venerable but to others may be less than a shadow. which, itself, is tragic but beautiful. beautiful because, independent of religion, it involves faith. faith in the value of the beautiful even when beauty is in the eye of the beholder. ja http://vispo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Troy Camplin" To: Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 12:15 PM Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" >I clarified a bit in my response to Halvard what I meant by "generative" in >the sense I was using it. Not everyone can be artistically generative. Some >people just feel the need to share in a positive manner what they >experienced. "To generate" is to grow and to reproduce. So let me go >further: neither indifference nor a negative reaction to a work is >generative (and I'm not sure "indifference" can be generated -- it seems to >me to be a neutral state and not an emotional state at all). A work that is >generative in this sense, then, is also a beautiful work. I was thinking of >Elaine Scarry's comment in On Beauty that the experience of beauty makes >you want to reproduce it. That can be as simple as telling others about it, >getting others to come share it with you, etc., or as complex as writing a >symphony or a sonnet or making a sculpture of a painting in response to it. >A work that is generative for me is not necessarily one that influences me >to make > another work of the same kind -- or even results in an immediate response > in some other genre. Things are not so linear and clear-cut that way. > There is no linear cause-and-effect in artistic influence, inspiration, > etc. > > Troy ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:16:09 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve Tills Subject: Seeking ROCHESTER NY AREA poets for new project/publication. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Rochester NY Area poets,=20 =20 Gerald Schwartz and I are currently seeking 3-4 additional others from this area for a Local Poets publication we want to put together. =20 =20 We are certain that a few Poetics List members and like-minded pomers hailing from Rochester would make fabulous contributions to our little project if only we knew who you are and how we can get in contact with you. Indeed, you're probably living just around the corner from us and we didn't even know it! =20 In brief, any ROCHESTER, NEW YORK, poets/writers out there wanting to have work considered for our project, PLEASE CONTACT US at your earliest convenience and introduce yourselves to us! We're very eager to meet you and put this thing together. =20 stills@gwlisk.com or gejs1@rochester.rr.com =20 =20 =20 Eager to hear from you, =20 Steve Tills and Gerald Schwartz =20 =20 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:18:14 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?= Subject: Book by Oscar McLennan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline _______________ Oscar McLennan is a performance-artist and innovative poet. Formerly from Dublin, Ireland (and formerly the partner of Ann Seagrave) today he lives and works in Argentina. Oscar McLennan, who is fluent in Spanish, is the author of the performance-poem "El bastardo tranquilo," published by Pepitas de Calabaza in Spain. Oscar has performed this poem throughout Spain and Latin America. ISBN 84-96044-62-9 | 304 p=E1ginas | 12x17 cm. | 12.5 euros For additional information about this book, go to http://www.pepitas.net/ El desierto es el estado de =E1nimo que amenaza con dominar la vida de Phil Malone: envuelto en papel reluciente y presentado por un Santa Claus al que se le cae la barba al primer tir=F3n. Phil es un espantap=E1jaros, un marginado atiborrado de sue=F1os de grandeza, un artista que se expresa a trav=E9s de las estrafalarias producciones cinematogr=E1ficas que idea mientras, oscilando entre la locura y la realidad, recorre las calles de Dubl=EDn. El viaje que emprende en busca de su =E1lter ego perdido es una tormenta de im=E1genes e ideas, c=F3mica, conmovedora e inquietante a la vez, una denuncia virulenta y surreal de una sociedad que prioriza los valores materiales frente a todos los dem=E1s. Oscar McLennan (1955) nacido y criado en Glasgow, ha vivido en Londres, Belfast, New York, Dubl=EDn, Barcelona y Zaragoza. Adem=E1s de como escritor y performer, a lo largo de su variopinto pasado se ha ganado la vida como cantante, m=FAsico, bibliotecario, artista de v=EDdeo, obrero de la construcci=F3n, jornalero del campo, voceador de telegramas, pintor, decorador, buscavidas callejero, conferencian-te itinerante en escuelas de arte, jefe de estaci=F3n en el metro londinense, m=FAsico ambulante, proletario fabril, traductor, repartidor de octavillas, c=F3mico, ajedrecista, profesor de ingl=E9s, friegaplatos, camarero, coordinador de talleres y espect=E1culos art=EDsticos en directo y jardinero. Su =FAltimo espect=E1culo en solitario, basado en este libro, ha sido puesto en escena en distintos pa=EDses de habla inglesa, destacando su representaci=F3n en el Festival Internacional de Teatro de UCLA (Los =C1ngeles). En la actualidad recorre Espa=F1a represent=E1ndolo en castellano. Sus escritos han sido publicados en varias colecciones de relatos cortos, revistas literarias y emitidos por radio en el Reino Unido y los EE.UU. El Bastardo Tranquilo, su primera novela publicada, ha sido vertida al castellano por Federico Corriente, en estrecha colaboraci=F3n con el autor. La prensa ha dicho: "Un mundo donde lo normal se torna anormal, donde la realidad queda desvelada en todo su absurdo". [...] "Recuerda los mejores momentos de Flan O'Brien." "De forma surreal pero brillante, la emprende con la estrechez de miras y abre un mundo de posibilidades". [...] "Posee la poderosa habilidad de tejer con palabras patrones originales y desconcertantemente extra=F1os". The Scotsman "La obra de McLennan le cautiva a uno de forma tan sutil que se encuentra en territorio desconocido (asomado a un precipicio) sin darse cuenta de que ni siquiera ha salido de la estaci=F3n". San Francisco Gael "Una prosa que se enrosca como una serpiente alrededor del cerebro". [...] "Las influencias son Beckett y Joyce, pero la voz y la visi=F3n son exclusivas de McLennan". The Independent "Una prosa intransigente que se funde con un torrente hipn=F3tico de visiones po=E9ticas de forma tan sutil que uno experimenta lo que s=F3lo puede ser descrito como alucinaciones verbales". Edinburgh Festival Times "Originario de Glasgow, y en la actualidad ciudadano del subconsciente". The Sunday Times "El reino imaginativo de McLennan reside en alg=FAn punto entre la comedia y la pesadilla". Time Out "Si se dejara a un psiquiatra recorrer la mente de Oscar, saldr=EDa con material suficiente para llenar The Lancet durante un a=F1o entero". [...] "Parte al galope por las grotescas zonas interiores de la imaginaci=F3n." The Guardian "El poder=EDo del lenguaje de McLennan y la fuerza de su imaginaci=F3n visual asombran de inmediato". [...] "Nos sumerge en el universo de los solitarios y enajenados, saltando del humor negro a las observaciones crudas, todo ello sustentado por un flujo de conciencia surreal". The List "McLennan se ha aventurado donde nadie ha osado hacerlo con anterioridad". City Limits For additional information about "El bastardo tranquilo," go to http://www.pepitas.net/ Respectfully, S=E9amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 06:20:12 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: my first vista/64-bit adventure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit in vista, by default, it is harder to record audio that does not come from a line in or microphone than it was in previous versions of windows. howso? by default, the only visible audio devices are 'line in' and 'microphone'. to record audio whose source is elsewhere is problematical--such as from inside the computer itself--without another audio device whose source is whatever is going on audio-wise in the computer. the device exists but, by default in vista, is disabled and hidden. both disabled and hidden. you have to unhide it *and* enable it to record anything whose source is inside the computer. such as any app you run that makes sound. but first you have to twig that it is hidden. and disabled. and how to undo that. in previous versions of windows, making this sort of recording was much easier because the device was in plain sight. when you get a new computer and it has a different sound card than you're used to and you're new to vista also, it's easy to be confused about whether the problem relates to the sound card or the operating system. i spent a couple of days thinking the problem was with the sound card. until it occurred to me the problem might be a vista problem and i googled that issue more successfully via this string: "recording in vista", "audio devices" whereupon i came across http://tinyurl.com/6at275 I think Cameron Snyder's instructions in http://tinyurl.com/6at275 are something all users of Vista need to come across if they want to record anything internal to the computer. Anything at all. Such as apps that run on the computer and generate audio. Whether they run through the browser or on the desktop. That includes Winamp, iTunes, and so on. But also, it includes recording Skype conversations, compositions you make with online instruments/works of art, and so on. The first of the above emails at http://tinyurl.com/6at275 is quite odd. Cameron Snyder's reply is a bit off though. My own feeling is that Robert Neville is flogging "Version 7 of Total Recorder" (mindfully or not) and the rhetoric of sales finds it convenient to posit "Micrsoft bowing to the RIAA and pressuring the soundcard manufacturers to remove the "What You Hear" feature from their drivers. This supposedly prevents you from recording web radio and other sound card audio." My own suspicion is that some body such as the RIAA might have payed Microsoft to hide and disable the usual audio devices. Or was it simply an ideological statement from Microsoft? I doubt it. I expect the action was taken after a cash payment. But that's just me? Anyway, my new puter has been somewhat irksome. It has no serial ports. Serial is apparently out. USB is the thing. So my printer won't work with the new puter without a $50 converter cable. Neither will my tablet. Both are serial. But more importantly, neither Wacom, who make the tablet, nor HP, which makes the printer, are writing drivers for these old products for Vista. So even if I got the converter cables, I couldn't get these devices working with Vista. The move to Vista is not just a move to a new operating system but, typically, to a 64 bit machine that has occassioned wide-ranging changes in things such as the audio architecture of the machine. It's sort of like the transition from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 where we went from 16-bit machines to 32-bit machines. Now we're going from 32-bit to 64-bit machines. These are major transitions in both the operating systems and a range of associated software architectures. Such as the audio system, which needs to be capable of even further increasing sample rates to provide audio that has presence, for instance. audio resolution has been quite low on computers. much less than analog recording, which we know can deliver presence (on vinyl). The good news is that when I've figured stuff out, the resulting systems have generally performed better than the old ones. For instance, my audio, the sound of it through the speakers, is better. More good bass, for instance. Also, when I record sound, I can choose a sample-rate of 192,000 samples per second. This is an increase from the old machine. I just thought it very strange how, in this little story about just trying to do a simple thing with my new computer, I ran into a problem caused by the economic/political issues swirling around contemporary media. Hiding and disabling the audio device needed to record audio from a source other than line in or microphone is unprecedented in the Windows operating system--or probably any operating system, for that matter. It is asinine. I don't know whether to think of it as emanating from Big Brotherdom or Dilbertdom. You can imagine the conversations between Microsoft executives and RIAA executives on the matter. RIAA: "We'll pay you 3 million dollars to hide and disable that audio device." MS: "We will have support costs. And damage control spin doctors to employ." RIAA: Who's it gonna hurt? It'll just make it harder for the innocents to fall." MS: "No, it can be an innocent activity. We would be punishing the innocent as well as the guilty. And it just makes using our computers harder for the innocents. We want to play ball with you but this will cost us." RIAA: "OK, $10 million." MS: "Well now that you put it that way, we can have a serious conversation about it." ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:28:27 -0800 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Subject: New de Blog - haptics and texts, etc. Comments: To: UK POETRY Comments: cc: "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Some new haptics, photographs and texts: 1. Haptics: Joseph Noble and Colleen Lookingbill at Books & Bookshelves 2. My Mother Leans Towards Death (Haptic and Text) =A0=A0=A0 My brother says that at night (while talking herself into sleep) = she switches back and forth between numbers and letters. This last week he was brought up short when, two-thirds the way through the alphabet. he heard her say: =85 p, q, r...'peculiar'=85 in an astonishingly quick leap from the associ= ative sounds of the letters into a corresponding word of similar sound.... 3. Huge Haptic w/ A.Ayler, J. Coltrane &=A0 Eric Friedlander plus "Obama Wi= ndow" 4. The Ultimate Mother Ghost - Isleton, California 5. Election Eve Street Vision or Paul Hoover and Maxine Chernoff translate = Holderin. 6. Haptic: Roberta Vargas, poet, 1968 Strike Commemoration, San Francisco S= tate University, October 28, 2008 Enjoy. and, as always, appreciate your comments.=20 Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:27:01 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Thanksgiving query Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed As we're stocking the house with traditional foods like Turkey and bicarb it occurs to me that "eat the bird" used to be an American insult. Seems apt for the occasion, but I can't remember anything else about it. Anyone else remember this? Mark ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 08:02:56 -0800 Reply-To: tsavagebar@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Thomas savage Subject: Tom Savage's After Thanksgivings Day Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all.=A0 I'll be giving a 20 minute reading at 7PM this Friday November 2= 8that the Cornelia Street Cafe at 29 Cornelia Street near Bleecker St. in N= ew York City.=A0 This is preceded by an open reading that starts at 6PM.=A0= There is a $6 cover and you're supposed to buy one drink.=A0 It would be n= ice to see you there if you happen to be in NYC on Friday.=A0 Regards, Tom = Savage=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:59:34 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Martha Cinader Mims Subject: Archived L&BH Radio Hour Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed L&BH Radio Hour Nov. 25 - Nov 26,2008 Yesterday, 08:00 PM At the start of the show I was joined by Listen & Be Heard Theatre =20 Critic Maria Vrobel, who talked about some alternative holiday shows =20 around the Bay Area of California. I spoke about my poem about the Federal Reserve, which someone lifted =20= and put at stopthefed.org without my permission, and I also read the =20 poem. We heard from Russ Golata in Florida, with some announcements and a =20 poem. I played my weekly editorial from my arts news TV show, which was =20 about looking around and making use of what we already have. I also =20 shared a couple arts opportunities. At the end of the show I read =20 some poetry from three different chapbooks published by Listen & Be =20 Heard, "Infinite Love Poem", "Environmental Terrorists" and "a little =20= book of odes." LBH-Radio-Hour-Nov-25.mp3 13.9 MB Read more=85 Martha Cinader Mims Listen & Be Heard Network editor@listenandbeheard.net http://www.listenandbeheard.net Get Skype and call me for free. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 07:29:53 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Joshua Clover Subject: double book party, 12/14 Comments: To: janedark@janedark.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [apologies for any x-posting] Sunday, December 14th, 2008 in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni press presents Kevin Killian & Stephanie Young and the release of their books Action Kylie and Picture Palace 6:30 pm, 5 USDollars there may be free wine, and dancing later and, for this single day, 20 bucks will get you in the door AND copies =20= of the two new books both already SPD bestsellers! 416 25th St. (at Broadway), Oakland Special guest appearances by Jasper Bernes and Jane Dark... KEVIN KILLIAN, born 1952, is an art writer, poet, novelist, critic and =20= playwright. He has written two novels, Shy (1989) and Arctic Summer =20 (1996), a book of memoirs, Bedrooms Have Windows (1989), two books of =20= stories Little Men (1997) and I Cry Like a Baby (2001) and a =20 collection of poems, Argento Series (1997). With Lewis Ellingham he =20 has written a biography of the poet Jack Spicer=97Poet Be Like God: Jack = =20 Spicer and the San Francisco Renaissance (Wesleyan University Press, =20 1998). For the San Francisco Poets Theater he has written 37 plays, =20 including Stone Marmalade, with Leslie Scalapino, and Often, with the =20= late Barbara Guest. His most recent book, from Hooke Press, is a =20 volume of his Selected Amazon Reviews, edited by Brent Cunningham, and =20= now there is Action Kylie. STEPHANIE YOUNG lives and works in Oakland. She edited the anthology =20 BAY POETICS (Faux Press, 2006) and is currently at work on the =20 collaborative website DEEP OAKLAND. Hey, you should propose a project =20= for DEEP OAKLAND! Her books of poetry are Picture Palace and Telling =20 the Future Off. She is here very sometimes: www.stephanieyoung.org/blog. ________________________ newyipes.blogspot.com =20= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:58:59 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Lil Norton Subject: *new* issue 3, Model Homes (Lil Norton) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://modelhomepage.blogspot.com/ Lil' Norton is proud to present, Model Homes issue 3, now yours to discover. Join us in experiencing the prorated prospects of Hung Q. Tu Donato Mancini Steven Zultanski Kim Rosenfield Kristen Gallagher Douglas Kearney Tommy Buck Anna Vitale Tyrone Williams Jean Day In time for the holidays, Issue and Subscription orders are now available through PayPal (no membership required, takes all credit cards, please visit out website). All correspondence, support, and inquiries welcome. 8.5 x 7, 64p, saddle stitched, made with love. issn# 1938-8136 a Lil' Norton production -Marie Buck & Brad Flis, editors http://modelhomepage.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:50:16 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Thanksgiving query Comments: To: junction@EARTHLINK.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Ah, this refers to a particular cut of meat which was so rough & rubbery = it was referred to as "gutta percha." Then somehow in the mid-20th = century, maybe because of metrical affinity, this was transmuted to = "charlie parker" which naturally in time became "bird" hence "eat the = bird." It really means having to eat a low-down rotten cut of meat (also = associated with prison diets, as in "eat the bird in the can" or "canned = bird," not to be confused with "eat the bird in the john" which means, er, = well you can figure it out yourself.) We're having TURKEY!!! We've made = it in the New World!!!! Mairead >>> junction@EARTHLINK.NET 11/26/08 10:27 AM >>> As we're stocking the house with traditional foods like Turkey and=20 bicarb it occurs to me that "eat the bird" used to be an American=20 insult. Seems apt for the occasion, but I can't remember anything=20 else about it. Anyone else remember this? Mark =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:55:05 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Cara Benson Subject: Re: my first vista/64-bit adventure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable planned obsolescence = two words:=0A=0Aplanned obsolescence=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0=0A=A0= =0A=A0=0A=A0=0ASous Rature=A0=0A=0A=A0=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________________= _____________=0AFrom: Jim Andrews =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BU= FFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 9:20:12 AM=0ASubject: my fir= st vista/64-bit adventure=0A=0Ain vista, by default, it is harder to record= audio that does not come from a line in or microphone than it was in previ= ous versions of windows.=0A=0Ahowso?=0A=0Aby default, the only visible audi= o devices are 'line in' and 'microphone'. to record audio whose source is e= lsewhere is problematical--such as from inside the computer itself--without= another audio device whose source is whatever is going on audio-wise in th= e computer.=0A=0Athe device exists but, by default in vista, is disabled an= d hidden. both disabled and hidden. you have to unhide it *and* enable it t= o record anything whose source is inside the computer. such as any app you = run that makes sound. but first you have to twig that it is hidden. and dis= abled. and how to undo that.=0A=0Ain previous versions of windows, making t= his sort of recording was much easier because the device was in plain sight= .=0A=0Awhen you get a new computer and it has a different sound card than y= ou're used to and you're new to vista also, it's easy to be confused about = whether the problem relates to the sound card or the operating system. i sp= ent a couple of days thinking the problem was with the sound card. until it= occurred to me the problem might be a vista problem and i googled that iss= ue more successfully via this string:=0A=0A"recording in vista", "audio dev= ices"=0A=0Awhereupon i came across http://tinyurl.com/6at275=0A=0AI think C= ameron Snyder's instructions in http://tinyurl.com/6at275 are something all= =0Ausers of Vista need to come across if they want to record anything inter= nal=0Ato the computer. Anything at all. Such as apps that run on the comput= er and=0Agenerate audio. Whether they run through the browser or on the des= ktop. That=0Aincludes Winamp, iTunes, and so on. But also, it includes reco= rding Skype conversations, compositions you make with online instruments/wo= rks of art, and so on.=0A=0AThe first of the above emails at http://tinyurl= .com/6at275 is quite odd. Cameron Snyder's reply is a bit=0Aoff though. My = own feeling is that Robert Neville is flogging "Version 7 of=0ATotal Record= er" (mindfully or not) and the rhetoric of sales finds it=0Aconvenient to p= osit "Micrsoft bowing to the RIAA and pressuring the=0Asoundcard manufactur= ers to remove the "What You Hear" feature from their=0Adrivers. This suppos= edly prevents you from recording web radio and other=0Asound card audio."= =0A=0AMy own suspicion is that some body such as the RIAA might have payed= =0AMicrosoft to hide and disable the usual audio devices.=0A=0AOr was it si= mply an ideological statement from Microsoft? I doubt it. I=0Aexpect the ac= tion was taken after a cash payment. But that's just me?=0A=0AAnyway, my ne= w puter has been somewhat irksome. It has no serial ports.=0ASerial is appa= rently out. USB is the thing. So my printer won't work with=0Athe new puter= without a $50 converter cable. Neither will my tablet. Both=0Aare serial. = But more importantly, neither Wacom, who make the tablet, nor=0AHP, which m= akes the printer, are writing drivers for these old products for=0AVista. S= o even if I got the converter cables, I couldn't get=0Athese devices workin= g with Vista.=0A=0AThe move to Vista is not just a move to a new operating = system but,=0Atypically, to a 64 bit machine that has occassioned wide-rang= ing changes in=0Athings such as the audio architecture of the machine.=0A= =0AIt's sort of like the transition from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 where we= went from 16-bit machines to 32-bit machines. Now we're going from 32-bit = to 64-bit machines. These are major transitions in both the operating syste= ms and a range of associated software architectures. Such as the audio syst= em, which needs to be capable of even further increasing sample rates to pr= ovide audio that has presence, for instance. audio resolution has been quit= e low on computers. much less than analog recording, which we know can deli= ver presence (on vinyl).=0A=0AThe good news is that when I've figured stuff= out, the resulting systems=0Ahave generally performed better than the old = ones. For instance, my audio,=0Athe sound of it through the speakers, is be= tter. More good bass, for=0Ainstance.=0A=0AAlso, when I record sound, I can= choose a sample-rate of 192,000 samples per second. This is an increase fr= om the old machine.=0A=0AI just thought it very strange how, in this little= story about just trying=0Ato do a simple thing with my new computer, I ran= into a problem caused by the=0Aeconomic/political issues swirling around c= ontemporary media.=0A=0AHiding and disabling the audio device needed to rec= ord audio from a source other than line in or microphone is unprecedented i= n the Windows operating system--or probably any operating system, for that = matter. It is asinine. I don't know whether to think of it as emanating fro= m Big Brotherdom or Dilbertdom. You can imagine the conversations between M= icrosoft executives and RIAA executives on the matter.=0A=0ARIAA: "We'll pa= y you 3 million dollars to hide and disable that audio device."=0A=0AMS: "W= e will have support costs. And damage control spin doctors to employ."=0A= =0ARIAA: Who's it gonna hurt? It'll just make it harder for the innocents t= o fall."=0A=0AMS: "No, it can be an innocent activity. We would be punishin= g the innocent as well as the guilty. And it just makes using our computers= harder for the innocents. We want to play ball with you but this will cost= us."=0A=0ARIAA: "OK, $10 million."=0A=0AMS: "Well now that you put it that= way, we can have a serious conversation about it."=0A=0Aja=0Ahttp://vispo.= com=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does= not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffal= o.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:27:21 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Language for whom, was Discussions of Race and the Poetics List In-Reply-To: <112520080614.5978.492B97B900098DFB0000175A22193100029B0A02 D29B9B0EBF98019C050C0E040D@att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is definitely (well, maybe: the flesh is weak) my last on the subject. Note that I've changed the header, which I think was a form of unmerited, and worse, undefended, editorial content. You post mixes apples and origins. There has been wide-spread commentary about the use of American Indian stereotypes for sports names. I remember questioning Indian giver as a child. My parents did their best, but didn't really answer the question. As an adult I assume its origin was in the misunderstanding of what it meant for an Indian to give, or to sell, property, Manhattan being a case in point; apparently as far as the Lenape were concerned they were selling temporary hunting rights. Moveable property gifts were often likewise seen as temorary, and return would be, from the Indian perspective, de rigueur. Forgive my generalizing--certainly not all Indian cultures had the same customs. In any event, American Indians are an oppressed, and vocal, minority among us who complain about stereotypes that still cause them serious injury on the part of other USians. I doubt they care as much what Tibetans, say, call their soccer teams. As far as I know some Dutch are confused by going Dutch or Dutch treat but don't feel at all threatened or more than mildly offended by it. I have Dutch friends. It's never come up. As to sensitivity to the world around us, presumably you mean by the term that any one person's complaint (that's what we've got here) requires the impoverishment of the language, even if the word in question imposes no perceivable injury on the group that person claims, on his own say-so, to represent. Obododimma has every right to ask: "please don't use that phrase around me, I find it offensive," but perhaps not the right to say "all Nigerians find it offensive." He doesn't in any event have the right to expect automatic compliance. An appeal to academic correctness doesn't alter the case: the academy's ownership rights to the language are severely limited. Those who don't understand that have been in school too long. This reminds me of a frustrating exchange I had with a bureaucrat which led me to cry out: "Oh Jesus Christ," to which she snapped "There's no need to take the Lord's name in vain," which you can imagine didn't calm me down. She almost got a lecture from me on passive-aggressive behavior. That woman, unlike Obododimma, represents a very large population within the US who would find my usage profoundly offensive and would have a hard time escaping similar offenses. I think most of us would agree that we see this as different in kind, because of the different power equation, from the Indian instances. Few of us would cede the linguistic territory, despite the very real feeling of offense that woman experienced. Language is always contested, but it, and the contestation, remains all of our property. Perhaps moreso for writers, which is why we tend to favor the protection of speech we don't agree with. The only reason for this discussion, I think, is an exploration of the contested turf and how we traverse it. Mark At 01:14 AM 11/25/2008, you wrote: >I guess I held out a hope that poets belong to a more elite group of humans. >Sensitivity to the world around us, and other peoples feelings, >would matter more to poets because we are more receptive than the >average person. Aren't we? > >Well maybe this Utopian belief is wrong, but you can still hope. In >a real world that allows team mascot names like, Redskins, and >Indians, do we all become desensitized to language. labeling, and >name calling. Do sayings infuence our lack of respect for these >ethnic groups? Indian Giver, Going Dutch, are a couple examples of these.. > >I still hope not. > >Peace >Russ Golata > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:16:28 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Andrew Lundwall Subject: more new than you can shake a stick at! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" scantily clad press' newest titles: - "note / worthy" by Russell Jaffe=20 - "Projectile Vomit" by Juliet Cook=20 - "President Letters" by Ken Rumble - "Resort to Humming" by Daniela Olszewska=20 visit scantily clad press: http://scantilycladpress.blogspot.com ...have a happy thanksgiving! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:57:34 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets In-Reply-To: <20081124.185531.156.16.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know and have written about the major American language poets. I have read their poetry and their theoretical material. I don't know that any Canadian poet has written anything theoretical. I don't know that any Canadian literary scholar has written anything about Canadian language poets. This is just to indicate the deplorable condition of Canadian literary scholarship. So Bowering, et al, at least I'm trying to do something to remedy the situation. What are you doing? John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky Sent: November 24, 2008 5:56 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets so what's new so many smarts folks create things about things they know nothing about On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:24:12 -0500 Vera Renczi writes: > I think it's funny that you are creating a coarse and yet you seem to > have > very limited knowledge of the subject, but perhaps that is how it's > done > when one teaches > > > > Colin smith > > Dorthy Trujillo Lusk > > Stephen Cain > > Margaret Christakos > > Daniel F Bradley > > Victor Coleman > > Christopher Dewdney > > > V > > > ** > > > On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:28 AM, John Cunningham > wrote: > > > Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's > face it, > > you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the > reception of > > language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, > right in > > your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august > halls > > most of Canada's language writers emanated. > > John Cunningham > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > Behalf Of George Bowering > > Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > > > > You're kidding! > > > > > > On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > > > > > I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the > University of > > > Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track > down > > > Canadian > > > language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any > > > Canadian > > > language poets. Thanks. > > > John Cunningham > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > > welcome.html > > > > > > > G. Harry Bowering, OC > > Worth the trouble. > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: > 03/07/2008 > > 7:19 PM > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 03/07/2008 7:19 PM ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:05:22 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jerome Rothenberg Subject: Poems for the Millennium, vol. 3, pre-order discounts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those interested, it's come to my attention that pre-orders of Poems = for the Millennium, volume 3 (romantics & postromantics) are being = filled by Amazon at a huge discount ($34,95 reduced to $23.07). I don't = know if other outlets are matching this, but thought I would pass the = word along. While advance copies are already going out, the actual publication date = remains sometime in January. And further information (including blurbs = from Hejinian, Palmer, Foley & others) can be found at = http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10540.php P.S. The hard-cover -- by far the more beautiful version -- is also = being reduced prior to publication: from $80 to $50.40.=20 Jerome Rothenberg "Poetry must have something in it 1026 San Abella that is barbaric, vast, and wild." Encinitas, CA 92024 D. Diderot =20 (760) 436-9923 =20 jrothenberg at cox.net Blog at poemsandpoetics.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:16:57 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Angeline, Mary" Subject: Re: Thanksgiving query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We "flip the bird" we do not eat the bird. ________________________________ From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) on behalf of Mark Weiss Sent: Wed 11/26/2008 8:27 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Thanksgiving query As we're stocking the house with traditional foods like Turkey and bicarb it occurs to me that "eat the bird" used to be an American insult. Seems apt for the occasion, but I can't remember anything else about it. Anyone else remember this? Mark =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check = guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:11:35 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Thanksgiving query In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Which means you get to eat the natives (it's always seemed to me that the Thanksgiving feast involved transubstantiation). At 01:50 PM 11/26/2008, you wrote: >Ah, this refers to a particular cut of meat which was so rough & >rubbery it was referred to as "gutta percha." Then somehow in the >mid-20th century, maybe because of metrical affinity, this was >transmuted to "charlie parker" which naturally in time became "bird" >hence "eat the bird." It really means having to eat a low-down >rotten cut of meat (also associated with prison diets, as in "eat >the bird in the can" or "canned bird," not to be confused with "eat >the bird in the john" which means, er, well you can figure it out >yourself.) We're having TURKEY!!! We've made it in the New World!!!! >Mairead > > >>> junction@EARTHLINK.NET 11/26/08 10:27 AM >>> >As we're stocking the house with traditional foods like Turkey and >bicarb it occurs to me that "eat the bird" used to be an American >insult. Seems apt for the occasion, but I can't remember anything >else about it. Anyone else remember this? > >Mark > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:52:35 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Rodney Koeneke Subject: **Susana Gardner's new book: [lapsed insel weary]** MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Tangent Press is proud to announce the release of [lapsed insel weary] a poetry book by Susana Gardner please order books by visiting our website: http://www.thetangentpress.org/books.html $12 "As the title suggests this is a sequence of articulations on the enduring themes of loss, separation, and messy love: love is always messy. But Gardner does not indulge in the easy cliches of introspection or confession= : here she conjures up an hypnotic, somnambulistic symphony of exquisite desolation. 'No man is an island' wrote John Donne but Gardner knows that i= s only a half truth, especially if you are a woman. Against a backdrop of the sea the breaking waters of waves and birth crash through these pages with a contradictory melancholic joy. Her island is inescapable but it has a bir= d and it is shot through with the vitality of colour and the colour of tenacious life. Disturbingly beautiful." --Geraldine Monk "Architecturally wild and sturdy, Gardner's book comes from a place beyond fear and despair, from a place of deep proclivity, which is where poetry becomes ancient, modern, and new." --Elizabeth Treadwell "Susana Gardner's [lapsed insel weary] is an extended social lyric of longing that refuses isolation because the "grandmany" is all around, in ancestry and memory and books and and shared future. Gardner's is a languag= e that recovers itself=97lace re-tatted, a house rebuilt=97and there is grand= eur in the recovery. This is poetry full of heart and intelligence." --Carolyn Forche =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:56:47 -0800 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Black Robert Journal #2 is LIVE - Interview w/ Malay Roychoudhury In-Reply-To: <423983.1310.qm@web56802.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://blackrobertjournal.blogspot.com/ He who jumps into the void, owes no explanation to those who watch.=97Jean = Luc Goddard Black Robert Journal #2 is Live This issue includes: Writing Andy Nicholson Ren Powell Christ Mulrooney Bobby Lurie Renne Emerson rob mcclennan Rosamond Zimmerman Kisten Orser Matt Sutin Michael Montlack Visual Art Samit Roy Matina Stamatakis Interviews Malay Roychoudhury - Part One Samit Roy Matina Stamatakis =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:47:07 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: 7th Annual Thanksgiving Menu Poem ::: Guest of Honor: Anne Waldman Comments: To: Geoffrey Gatza Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =20 7th Annual Thanksgiving Menu Poem =20 All invited!=20 Online now at http://www.blazevox.org/thanks.htm =20 =20 Guest of Honor: Anne Waldman =20 Hello and welcome! Let me take your coat and hat. Please grab a warm cider and let's meet the other guests by the fire. Dinner will begin shortly. Thi= s is the seventh year of this poem series and our guest of honor this year is Anne Waldman. Next year, we will have C. D. Wright at the front of our table! So be sure to come back :-) =20 A Menu Poem: =20 To have a gathering for so many, a virtual feast in order! The concept is a menu poem that I would serve if we could all gather in one hall. Each cours= e has a poem associated with a food item in that dish. This is a small tribut= e to a great poet who has influenced us all. A way we can all gather in a small moment of comfort together and raise our glasses to honor fine work. =20 Best, Geoffrey Gatza | Editor & Publisher | BlazeVOX [books] =20 =20 Online now at http://www.blazevox.org/thanks.htm =20 Or download the PDF right here http://www.blazevox.org/Thanksgiving%202008.pdf =20 =20 =20 =20 Thanksgiving 2008 =20 Guest of Honor : Anne Waldman =20 A menu poem : Supererogatory =20 =20 Menu: =20 Aperitif =20 Pear & Muscat Granita =20 Salad Course =20 Herb Confit Veggie Tower Lobster Salad with Fennel, Blood Oranges with Cilantro Spiced Carrot Fritter =20 =20 Soup Course =20 Roasted Pumpkin Bisque, Apple Gel=E9e with Cinnamon Nutmeg Cream =20 =20 Fish Course =20 Potato Crusted Salmon on Swiss Chard with Champagne-Saffron Reduction =20 Seared Sea Scallops on Brussels Sprouts & Bacon =20 =20 A Welcoming Table of Plenty =20 Porcini Stuffed Game Hen Resting on Red Lentil Curry, Garbanzos & Peas =20 Quilted Giraffe's Crispy Duck Confit =20 Currant Stuffed Chicken Breast with Pear & Potato Pur=E9e =20 Winter Tofu Tabbouleh =20 Glazed Carrots & Balsamic Cranberries =20 Braised Chestnuts, Grapes & Cognac =20 Braised Lentils, Mushroom, Pearl Onion & Bacon =20 Thyme Scented Acorn Squash, Roasted Zucchini =20 Vidalia Pissaladiere and Cabernet-Shallot Sorbet =20 Braised Bean, Leek & Collard Green =20 Maple Sugared Carrots & Parsnips =20 =20 Dessert =20 Greenwich Village Four Chocolate Brownstone Brownie Tort =20 =20 =20 =20 Online now at http://www.blazevox.org/thanks.htm Online now at http://www.blazevox.org/thanks.htm Online now at http://www.blazevox.org/thanks.htm =20 =20 =20 Also Read Thanksgiving Menu Poems Past =20 Ron Silliman : Thanksgiving 2007 =20 John Ashbery : Thanksgiving 2006 =20 Robert Creeley : Thanksgiving 2005 =20 Kent Johnson : Thanksgiving 2004 =20 Forrest Gander : Thanksgiving 2003 =20 Charles Bernstein : Thanksgiving 2002 =20 =20 And make sure to come back next year! Our Guest of Honor will be C. D. Wright!!!=20 =20 Again, happy thanksgiving to all! =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:26:47 EST Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ann Bogle Subject: at Ana Verse Nov. 26, 2008 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable from the Index at Ana Verse: Jan. 16, 2006 to Nov. 26, 2008 (rev. Nov. 26): Contents: 283 posts (incl. Index); 51 drafts (not viewable); 232 viewable=20 posts; 20 posts per pg.; 12 scroll pp.: Page 1: "Honor" and other words with "ho" in them at Ana Verse (list, prose poem) Unrequited Loves, a collaboration (draft)* Camille Claudel (draft, open ltr.)* Postscript to "Hoss Men" "A Woman's Way Through the Twelve Steps" (poetry -line) Punctuate (cnf, draft) Years after Joy (inq.-cult.) Writing in the Open (nota.) Thanksgiving to Blogger W=CF=80H=CF=80A=CF=80T (personal ltr., prosetics, draft)* (W H A T w/ pi sy= mbols) Hoss Men (draft, prosetics)* Calling Michael Semora (nota.) Hoss Men (13th rev.) (in reverse) (draft, prosetics)* Like a delight ("found" poem) http://annbogle.blogspot.com *These "drafts" will re/appear at Ana Verse or in print publications TBA. =20 AMB =20 **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW=20 AOL.com.=20 (http://www.aol.com/?optin=3Dnew-dp&icid=3Daolcom40vanity&ncid=3Demlcntaolco= m00000002) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:09:33 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Well, I am looking back at my old issues of the Canadian journal Open Letter and checking out all the many many theoretical pieces on language poetry, including those issues that were devoted to Language poets, including the famous L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E vo0lumes. On Nov 26, 2008, at 2:57 PM, John Cunningham wrote: > I know and have written about the major American language poets. I > have read > their poetry and their theoretical material. I don't know that any > Canadian > poet has written anything theoretical. I don't know that any Canadian > literary scholar has written anything about Canadian language > poets. This is > just to indicate the deplorable condition of Canadian literary > scholarship. > So Bowering, et al, at least I'm trying to do something to remedy the > situation. What are you doing? > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky > Sent: November 24, 2008 5:56 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > > so what's new so many smarts folks create things about things > they know nothing about > > On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:24:12 -0500 Vera Renczi > > writes: >> I think it's funny that you are creating a coarse and yet you seem to >> have >> very limited knowledge of the subject, but perhaps that is how it's >> done >> when one teaches >> >> >> >> Colin smith >> >> Dorthy Trujillo Lusk >> >> Stephen Cain >> >> Margaret Christakos >> >> Daniel F Bradley >> >> Victor Coleman >> >> Christopher Dewdney >> >> >> V >> >> >> ** >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:28 AM, John Cunningham >> wrote: >> >>> Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's >> face it, >>> you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the >> reception of >>> language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, >> right in >>> your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august >> halls >>> most of Canada's language writers emanated. >>> John Cunningham >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >>> Behalf Of George Bowering >>> Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets >>> >>> You're kidding! >>> >>> >>> On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: >>> >>>> I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the >> University of >>>> Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track >> down >>>> Canadian >>>> language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any >>>> Canadian >>>> language poets. Thanks. >>>> John Cunningham >>>> >>>> ================================== >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. >> Check >>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >>>> welcome.html >>>> >>> >>> G. Harry Bowering, OC >>> Worth the trouble. >>> >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: >> 03/07/2008 >>> 7:19 PM >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: > 03/07/2008 > 7:19 PM > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > George "Whip" Bowering A law-abiding driver. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 06:39:20 -0500 Reply-To: clwnwr@earthlink.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Bob Heman Subject: collage show at 532 Gallery in Chelsea MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Folks - Happy Thanksgiving - this is just to let you know that I'll be part of a collage group show that opens on Saturday December 6 at the 532 Gallery at 532 West 25th St. in Chelsea - the show includes collages by 24 artists including some by poets whose names you might recognize including Lewis Warsh, David Shapiro, Bruce Weber, the late Joe Brainard, and curators Jeffrey Cyphers Wright and Valery Oisteanu, among others - come on down and have a look - all the information follows - Bob 532 Gallery Thomas Jaeckel 532 West 25th Street, NY 10001 RIPPED AND TORN Collage & Assemblage December 6 - December 22, 2008 Opening reception Saturday Dec. 6, 6- 9 pm Collage is the perfect medium for our fast-paced, information packed times. Since the beginnings with its first champions, Kurt Schwitters and Max Ernst, this humble art form has become the darling visual expression for writers. Recently, Pulitzer Prize winning poet John Ashbery received enormous attention for his collage show. Ashbery collaborated with fellow author and artist, the late Joe Brainard who headlines the show “Ripped and Torn” opening December 6th at 532 Gallery in Chelsea. Most of the 24 artists in the show are writers themselves including poet/critic curators Valery Oisteanu and Jeffrey Cyphers Wright. Poet David Shapiro is a close associate of John Ashbery. Lewis Warsh is a publisher and poet who creates abstract grids using letters. Star Black recently showed her collages and accordion books at Zieher Smith Gallery. Bruce Weber is the Director of the National Academy Museum. Amy Ernst, granddaughter of Max, is a consummate collagist, blending elements of figuration and abstraction. John Evans is the eminence gris of the collage movement in this country and shows regularly at Pavel Zoubek Gallery. His daughter India has caught the fever and creates charming visions using her trademark embroidered text. Other artists in the show include Judy Rifka, Bob Heman, Madeline Weinrib, Tom Walker, Rakien Nomura, Micci Cohan, Laurance Rassin, Sali Taylor, Charles Mingus III, Angelo Jannuzzi, Lucien Dulfan, Allan Sheinman, Toni Tiger and Luigi Cazzaniga. Phone 917.701.3338 | info@532gallery.com | 532 West 25th Street, NY 10001 | Hours: Tue-Fri 11–6, Sat 12–5 and by appointment ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 06:10:53 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: new interactive Jig-Sound music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is some new music I made: http://vispo.com/jig/JigArteroid1.mp3 It should be played quite loud. And played to loop/repeat at the end. I composed this in an interactive Shockwave piece I wrote at http://vispo.com/jig/jigArteroids.htm called Jig-Sound. The composition looks like this: http://vispo.com/jig/images/JigArteroids1.jpg . See if you can recreate it in Jig-Sound--or something more interesting to you. The audio is from another app I made called Arteroids at http://vispo.com/arteroids ; these are (my) voice sounds. ja ps: There is some video explanation of Jig-Sound at http://vispo.com/bc/qt (and related links). ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 01:40:05 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: We'll find a title for these. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed We'll find a title for these. http://www.alansondheim.org/ooh1.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/ooh2.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/ooh3.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/ooh4.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/ooh5.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/ooh6.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/ooh7.jpg By now you can see where these are going. A brief glimpse of the Organ Mountains outside of Las Cruces. A sense of melancholy. The mountains are scattered, mostly out of sight, presence of an inverted sublime... | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:32:50 -0800 Reply-To: csgiscombe@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "c. s. giscombe" Subject: Carden, Giscombe, Govind, Lease, Osborne, & Rahimtoola on the radio! In-Reply-To: <01d801c9501b$75ba4310$6500a8c0@yourw04gtxld67> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CARDEN, GISCOMBE, GOVIND, LEASE, OSBORNE, & RAHIMTOOLA ON THE RADIO! Join us in an experiment in radio and poetry and song on Sunday, 30 Novembe= r, from 4 to 6 pm (Pacific time). The place is Brian Kirven=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CSwervin=E2=80=99 Kirven Show= =E2=80=9D on KWMR in Point Reyes Station, California. Tune in, if you=E2= =80=99re in Marin County, at 90.5 or 89.7. Or listen on the Web by going t= o http://www.kwmr.org/index.html and clicking on the =E2=80=9COn Air=E2=80= =9D logo at the top of the screen, under the cow. The broadcast will include an unusual contest and surprising music. It wil= l contain multitudes. Berkeley poets Rachel Carden, C. S. Giscombe, Nikhil Govind, Joseph Lease (= via telephone hook-up from Oakland), Gillian Osborne, and Samia Rahimtoola = will read poems, talk, sing songs, argue, and field your questions, concern= s, comments, and complaints. The show will be live and we=E2=80=99re not s= ure exactly what will happen; we=E2=80=99re interested in the shape all thi= s will take. Telephone us at 415-663-8492 or 415-663-8317.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:08:07 -0800 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: THE LINK TO Re: Black Robert Journal #2 is LIVE - Interview w/ Malay Roychoudhury MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://blackrobertjournal.blogspot.com/ He who jumps into the void, owes no explanation to those who watch.=97Jean = Luc Goddard Black Robert Journal #2 is Live This issue includes: Writing Andy Nicholson Ren Powell Christopher Mulrooney Bobby Lurie Renne Emerson rob mcclennan Rosamond Zimmerman Kisten Orser Matt Sutin Michael Montlack Visual Art Samit Roy Matina Stamatakis Interviews Malay Roychoudhury - Part One Samit Roy Matina Stamatakis --- On Thu, 11/27/08, Alexander Jorgensen wrote: From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Fw: THE LINK TO : Re: Black Robert Journal #2 is LIVE - Interview = w/ Malay Roychoudhury To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 12:58 AM http://blackrobertjournal.blogspot.com/ He who jumps into the void, owes no explanation to those who watch.=97Jean = Luc Goddard Black Robert Journal #2 is Live This issue includes: Writing Andy Nicholson Ren Powell Christ Mulrooney Bobby Lurie Renne Emerson rob mcclennan Rosamond Zimmerman Kisten Orser Matt Sutin Michael Montlack Visual Art Samit Roy Matina Stamatakis Interviews Malay Roychoudhury - Part One Samit Roy Matina Stamatakis =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 09:07:02 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for turning me on to this, George. Ya see, all ya gots ta do is ask! Any other suggestions - something in the area of civility would be nice. By the way, I'm godforbid reviewing your new Talonbooks book for Prairie Fire. John Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of George Bowering Sent: November 26, 2008 9:10 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets Well, I am looking back at my old issues of the Canadian journal Open Letter and checking out all the many many theoretical pieces on language poetry, including those issues that were devoted to Language poets, including the famous L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E vo0lumes. On Nov 26, 2008, at 2:57 PM, John Cunningham wrote: > I know and have written about the major American language poets. I > have read > their poetry and their theoretical material. I don't know that any > Canadian > poet has written anything theoretical. I don't know that any Canadian > literary scholar has written anything about Canadian language > poets. This is > just to indicate the deplorable condition of Canadian literary > scholarship. > So Bowering, et al, at least I'm trying to do something to remedy the > situation. What are you doing? > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky > Sent: November 24, 2008 5:56 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > > so what's new so many smarts folks create things about things > they know nothing about > > On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:24:12 -0500 Vera Renczi > > writes: >> I think it's funny that you are creating a coarse and yet you seem to >> have >> very limited knowledge of the subject, but perhaps that is how it's >> done >> when one teaches >> >> >> >> Colin smith >> >> Dorthy Trujillo Lusk >> >> Stephen Cain >> >> Margaret Christakos >> >> Daniel F Bradley >> >> Victor Coleman >> >> Christopher Dewdney >> >> >> V >> >> >> ** >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:28 AM, John Cunningham >> wrote: >> >>> Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's >> face it, >>> you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the >> reception of >>> language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, >> right in >>> your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august >> halls >>> most of Canada's language writers emanated. >>> John Cunningham >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >>> Behalf Of George Bowering >>> Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets >>> >>> You're kidding! >>> >>> >>> On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: >>> >>>> I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the >> University of >>>> Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track >> down >>>> Canadian >>>> language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any >>>> Canadian >>>> language poets. Thanks. >>>> John Cunningham >>>> >>>> ================================== >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. >> Check >>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >>>> welcome.html >>>> >>> >>> G. Harry Bowering, OC >>> Worth the trouble. >>> >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: >> 03/07/2008 >>> 7:19 PM >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: > 03/07/2008 > 7:19 PM > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > George "Whip" Bowering A law-abiding driver. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 03/07/2008 7:19 PM ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 14:16:06 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: The First "Thanksgiving" and the First Professional Painter in "The New World" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kenneth C. Davis' excellent op-ed in the NY Times (see below) is a great re= minder of the first=2C and French=2C Europeans to build a small Fort and pl= ace to live in what is now the USA. It neglects to mention=2C though=2C that this expedition included in it Jac= ques Le Moyne de Morgue=2C the first professional painter sent to paint the= people and places of of this "New World." Last summer a book appeared called Painter in a Savage Land: The Strange Saga of the First European Artist in = North America=2C by Miles Harvey=2C about the extraordinary life and times = of this artist=2C whose name=2C works and life had for centuries been obscu= red=2C only to be "rediscovered" in recent years I highly recommend the book to anyone for its wild mix of art=2C history=2C= adventure and the at times sensation of "Magic Realism" which pervades it-= -the "Magic Realism" of "things never before seen nor heard of" as Lazarill= o de Tormes puts it so well in the picaresque book of that name. It is amazing to come across this piece as my mother and I had just been ta= lking on the phone a bit before I read the article how much of the French p= resence in North America is obscured in the US to this day--after all--the = only common sign of it we found as kids was "Franco-American Spaghetti" whi= ch made no sense at all to us when small. (And doesn't really=2C to this d= ay--) My great-aunt Irene Trepanier Payan did many years of geneological research= and found that the first in our family to come to Quebec to live was in 16= 50. No French women came for quite some time=2C leading the men for genera= tions (including myself) to marry Indians. Thus=2C they were a mixed group = of peoples=2C thought to be vastly inferior by the English who conquered th= em under Montcalm. Through time there came the forced expulsions and ethnic cleansing of Frenc= h-Indians to the US=2C including to Louisiana where already there was a str= ong French cultural influence that lives still today. (Arcadie became Nova = Scotia--and Arcadiens became Cajuns.) Here is the synopsis of Miles Harvey's excellent book-- I include it as a prelude to the piece below it from the Times. And here is the site for the book=2C where you can find excerpts from the b= ook=2C letters and best of all some of the art work of Jacques Le Moyne de = Morgue. http://milesharvey.com/default.htm Some things in this book made me think=2C tough they are so very different= =2C of the masterpiece by Cesar Aira An Episode in the Life of a Landscape = Painter which concerns a German Humdoldt-influenced painter in 19th centur= y Latin America. Bon appetit !! Painter in a Savage Land: The Strange Saga of the First European Artist in = North America by Miles Harvey SynopsisIn this vibrantly told=2C meticulously researched book=2C Miles Harvey reveals one of the most fascinating and overlooked lives in American history. Like The Island of Lost Maps=2C his bestselling book about a legendary map = thief=2C Painter in a Savage Land is a cosmpelling search into the mysteries of the past. This is the thrilling story of Jacques Le Moyne de Morgue=2C the first European artist to journey to what is now the continental United States with the express purpose of recording its wonders in pencil and paint. Le Moyne=92s images=2C which survive today in a series of spectacular engravings=2C provide a rare glimpse of Native American life at the pivotal time of first contact with the Europeans=96most of whom arrived with the preconceived notion that the New World was an almost mythical place in which anything was possible. In 1564 Le Moyne and three hundred other French Protestants landed off the coast of Florida=2C hoping to establish the first permanent European settlement in the sprawling territory that would become the United States. Their quest ended in gruesome violence=2C but Le Moyne was one of the few colonists to escape=2C returning across the Atlantic to create dozens of illustrations of the local Native Americans=96works of lasting importance to scholars. Today=2C he is also recognized as an influential early painter of flowers and plants. A Zelig-like persona=2C Le Moyne worked for some of the most prominent figures of his time=2C including Sir Walter Raleigh. Harvey=92s research=2C moreover=2C suggests a fascinating link to the notorious Mary Queen of Scots. Largely forgotten until the twentieth century=2C Le Moyne=92s pieces have becomeincreasingly sought after in the art world=96at a 2005 auction=2C a previously unknown book of his botanical drawings sold for a million dollars. In re-creating the life and legacy of Jacques Le Moyne de Morgues=2C Miles Harvey weaves a tale of both intellectual intrigue and swashbuckling drama. Replete with shipwrecks=2C mutinies=2C religious wars=2C pirate raids=2C and Indian attacks=2C Painter in a Savage Land is truly a tour de force of narrative n= onfiction. http://milesharvey.com/default.htm Op-Ed Contributor A French Connection http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/26/opinion/26davis.html?th&emc=3Dth By KENNETH C. DAVIS Published: November 25=2C 2008=20 TO commemorate the arrival of the first pilgrims to America=92s shores=2C a June date would be far more appropriate=2C accompanied perhaps by coq au vin and a nice Bordeaux. After all=2C the first European arrivals seeking religious freedom in the =93New World=94 were French. And they beat their English counterparts by 50 years. That French settlers bested the Mayflower Pilgrims may surprise Americans raised on our foundational myth=2C but the record is clear.=20 =20 Long before the Pilgrims sailed in 1620=2C another group of dissident Christians sought a haven in which to worship freely. These French Calvinists=2C or Huguenots=2C hoped to escape the sectarian fighting between Catholics and Protestants that had bloodied France since 1560. =20 =20 Landing in balmy Florida in June of 1564=2C at what a French explorer had earlier named the River of May (now the St. Johns River near Jacksonville)=2C the French =E9migr=E9s promptly held a service of =93thanksgiving.=94 Carrying the seeds of a new colony=2C they also brought cannons to fortify the small=2C wooden enclosure they named Fort Caroline=2C in honor of their king=2C Charles IX. In short order=2C these French pilgrims built houses=2C a mill and bakery=2C and apparently even managed to press some grapes into a few casks of wine. At first=2C relationships with the local Timucuans were friendly=2C and some of the French settlers took native wives and soon acquired the habit of smoking a certain local =93herb.=94 Food=2C wine=2C w= omen =97 and tobacco by the sea=2C no less. A veritable Gallic paradise.=20 Except=2C that is=2C to the Spanish=2C who had other visions for the New World. In 1565=2C King Philip II of Spain issued orders to =93hang and burn the Lutherans=94 (then a Spanish catchall term for Protestants) and dispatched Adm. Pedro Men=E9ndez to wipe out these French heretics who had taken up residence on land claimed by the Spanish =97 and who also had an annoying habit of attacking Spanish treasure ships as they sailed by.=20 Leading this holy war with a crusader=92s fervor=2C Men=E9ndez established St. Augustine and ordered what local boosters claim is the first parish Mass celebrated in the future United States. Then he engineered a murderous assault on Fort Caroline=2C in which most of the French settlers were massacred. Men=E9ndez had many of the survivors strung up under a sign that read=2C =93I do this not as to Frenchmen but as to heretics.=94 A few weeks later=2C he ordered the execution of more than 300 French shipwreck survivors at a site just south of St. Augustine=2C now marked by an inconspicuous national monument called Fort Matanzas=2C from the Spanish word for =93slaughters.= =94=20 With this=2C America=92s first pilgrims disappeared from the pages of history. Casualties of Europe=92s murderous religious wars=2C they fell victim to Anglophile historians who erased their existence as readily as they demoted the Spanish settlement of St. Augustine to second-class status behind the later English colonies in Jamestown and Plymouth. But the truth cannot be so easily buried. Although overlooked=2C a brutal first chapter had been written in the most untidy history of a =93Christian nation.=94 And the sectarian violence and hatred that ended with the deaths of a few hundred Huguenots in 1565 would be replayed often in early America=2C the supposed haven for religious dissent=2C which in fact tolerated next to none. Starting with those massacred French pilgrims=2C the saga of the nation=92s birth and growth is often a bloodstained one=2C filled with religious animosities. In Boston=2C for instance=2C the Puritan fathers banned Catholic priests and executed several Quakers between 1659 and 1661. Cotton Mather=2C the famed Puritan cleric=2C led the war cries against New England=92s Abenaki =93savages=94 w= ho had learned their prayers from the French Jesuits. The colony of Georgia was established in 1732 as a buffer between the Protestant English colonies and the Spanish missions of Florida=3B its original charter banned Catholics. The bitter rivalry between Catholic France and Protestant England carried on for most of a century=2C giving rise to anti-Catholic laws=2C while a mistrust of Canada=92s French Catholics helped fire many patriots=92 passion for independence. As late as 1844=2C Philadelphia=92s anti-Catholic =93Bible Riots=94 took the lives of more tha= n a dozen people. The list goes on. Our history is littered with bleak tableaus that show what happens when righteous certitude is mixed with fearful ignorance. Which is why this Thanksgiving=2C as we express gratitude for America=92s bounty and promise=2C we would do well to reflect on all our histories=2C including a forgotten French one that began on Flor= ida=92s shores so many years ago.=20 Kenneth C. Davis is the author of =93America=92s Hidden History: Untold Tales of the First Pilgrims=2C Fighting Women and Forgotten Founders Who Shaped a Nation.=94=20 _________________________________________________________________ Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_acce= ss_112008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:49:52 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Angeline, Mary" Subject: Re: [BULK] Re: Canadian language writers/poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Isn't McCaffery (sp) a canadian? North of Intention=20 One of the four hoesemen no? Do they need Canadian passports or can they sort of cross the line? Also Norma Cole writes theoretical pieces on language. ________________________________ From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) on behalf of George Bowering Sent: Wed 11/26/2008 8:09 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: [BULK] Re: Canadian language writers/poets Well, I am looking back at my old issues of the Canadian journal Open=20 Letter and checking out all the many many theoretical pieces on language poetry, including those issues that=20 were devoted to Language poets, including the famous L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3DE vo0lumes. On Nov 26, 2008, at 2:57 PM, John Cunningham wrote: > I know and have written about the major American language poets. I=20 > have read > their poetry and their theoretical material. I don't know that any=20 > Canadian > poet has written anything theoretical. I don't know that any Canadian > literary scholar has written anything about Canadian language=20 > poets. This is > just to indicate the deplorable condition of Canadian literary=20 > scholarship. > So Bowering, et al, at least I'm trying to do something to remedy the > situation. What are you doing? > John Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB)=20 > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky > Sent: November 24, 2008 5:56 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets > > so what's new so many smarts folks create things about things > they know nothing about > > On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:24:12 -0500 Vera Renczi=20 > > writes: >> I think it's funny that you are creating a coarse and yet you seem to >> have >> very limited knowledge of the subject, but perhaps that is how it's >> done >> when one teaches >> >> >> >> Colin smith >> >> Dorthy Trujillo Lusk >> >> Stephen Cain >> >> Margaret Christakos >> >> Daniel F Bradley >> >> Victor Coleman >> >> Christopher Dewdney >> >> >> V >> >> >> ** >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:28 AM, John Cunningham >> wrote: >> >>> Now what is it you believe that I'm kidding about, George? Let's >> face it, >>> you and Daphne and Fred sort of seeded the ground for the >> reception of >>> language writing/poetry through Tallman's class, didn't you? Also, >> right in >>> your back yard is the Kootenay School of Writing from whose august >> halls >>> most of Canada's language writers emanated. >>> John Cunningham >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >>> Behalf Of George Bowering >>> Sent: November 23, 2008 8:38 PM >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Canadian language writers/poets >>> >>> You're kidding! >>> >>> >>> On Nov 23, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Cunningham wrote: >>> >>>> I'm in the process of creating a Con Ed course for the >> University of >>>> Winnipeg on Language Writing/Poetry and am attempting to track >> down >>>> Canadian >>>> language poets. I'd appreciate it if anyone can refer me to any >>>> Canadian >>>> language poets. Thanks. >>>> John Cunningham >>>> >>>> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. >> Check >>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >>>> welcome.html >>>> >>> >>> G. Harry Bowering, OC >>> Worth the trouble. >>> >>> >>> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com =20 >>> Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: >> 03/07/2008 >>> 7:19 PM >>> >>> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >> >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=20 > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com =20 > Version: 8.0.134 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date:=20 > 03/07/2008 > 7:19 PM > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > George "Whip" Bowering A law-abiding driver. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check = guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 06:36:40 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: lanny quarles Subject: NOSERING CELLPHONE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to all, I have just finished compiling a free e-chap called NOSERING CELLPHONE It is available at: http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/noseringcellphone.pdf for you to download and peruse with your latte' laptop nosering reader services and fitness center latte' lexus nipple enhancement laptop shelters. It is also available as a paper amoeba infofolio assemblaphage at http://www.lulu.com/content/5066951 and also as a free Thanksgiving ameoba cellphone dinner latte'. please forward this message to other groupuscules and cellphone amoeba clatches, Thank you. Lanny Quarles, sexy amoeba-cellphone-bearded fitness sales consultant noise ring latte' http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/ http://jellybeanweirdo.blogspot.com/ http://www.phaneron.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:34:52 +0100 Reply-To: argotist@fsmail.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jeffrey Side Subject: New esay in Jacket Magazine: 'Empirical and Non-Empirical Identifiers' Comments: To: British Poetics , Poetryetc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have an essay in Jacket Magazine called 'Empirical and Non-Empirical Identifiers': http://jacketmagazine.com/36/side-j-essay.shtml This essay looks at certain effects of language that I call Empirical Identifiers because of the ways in which they encourage exegetical closure through their functioning as referents to phenomena. It also looks at their opposites, which I call Non-Empirical Identifiers because of the ways in which they invite readers to participate in the creation of individual meaning and significance from language that is autonomous and non-referential. These identifiers, by enabling a ready recognition of empirical and non-empirical writing procedures in poetry, may prove useful as diagnostic devices for literary and stylistic criticism. The essay examines a range of poetic works from the last century and assesses the extent to which they exhibit a reliance on either Empirical Identifiers or Non-Empirical Identifiers. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:39:01 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sharon Mesmer/David Borchart Subject: Request for information In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Dear friends, This summer at the New School I'll be teaching a literature/poetry =20 course called "The Muse Singing: Myth in Poetry from Classical Times =20 to Now." I would deeply appreciate suggestions regarding non-Western =20= poetic responses to the Greek myths, from any era, any country. I'll =20= post the course description below and the texts I'm already using. =20 Many thanks in advance! THE MUSE SINGING: MYTH IN POETRY FROM CLASSICAL TIMES TO NOW Sharon Mesmer, Instructor / Humanities Division The artful, emotive tellings of timeless myth-stories by poets of the =20= classical world continue to enthrall us today. What is it about =20 these mysterious and beautiful tales that has so captured the poetic =20 imagination for so long? How, to paraphrase Walter Pater, have poets =20= =93become the depositaries of the instinctive products of the =20 imagination, fixing its outlines and developing its situations=94? To =20= gain a new appreciation of four of the most central and familiar =20 Greek myths (Demeter and Persephone; Cupid and Psyche; Daedalus and =20 Icarus; Orpheus and Eurydice) we=92ll first examine their oldest known =20= literary sources (The Homeric Hymn to Demeter; Apuleius; Ovid) and =20 read short interpretations by well-known scholars such as Edith =20 Hamilton, Walter Pater, Jane Harrison, Guy Davenport and Joseph =20 Campbell. Finally, we=92ll do close readings of modern and =20 contemporary poetic retellings of each tale and discuss connections/ =20 disconnections with the original sources. Access to the films =93La =20 Belle et Le B=EAte/Beauty and the Beast=94 (as a modern interpretation = of =20 the Cupid and Psyche story) by Jean Cocteau and =93Orfeu Negro/Black =20 Orpheus=94 by Marcel Camus will also be provided through Blackboard. TEXTS: MYTHOLOGY: TIMELESS TALES OF GODS AND HEROES Edith Hamilton METAMORPHOSIS Ovid, translation by David Raeburn THE HOMERIC HYMN TO DEMETER Helen Foley, editor CUPID AND PSYCHE Apuleius, translation by E.J. Kenney ORPHEUS AND COMPANY Deborah de Nicola, editor GODS AND MORTALS Nina Kossman, editor =46rom Google Books: GREEK STUDIES Walter Pater (short excerpt) PROLEGOMENA TO THE STUDY OF GREEK RELIGION Jane Harrison (short excerpt) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 13:07:52 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Poems for the Millennium, vol. 3, pre-order discounts In-Reply-To: <01d801c9501b$75ba4310$6500a8c0@yourw04gtxld67> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit congratulations--I use vol II for my poetry courses & it's a hit. On 11/26/08 6:05 PM, "Jerome Rothenberg" wrote: > For those interested, it's come to my attention that pre-orders of Poems for > the Millennium, volume 3 (romantics & postromantics) are being filled by > Amazon at a huge discount ($34,95 reduced to $23.07). I don't know if other > outlets are matching this, but thought I would pass the word along. > > While advance copies are already going out, the actual publication date > remains sometime in January. And further information (including blurbs from > Hejinian, Palmer, Foley & others) can be found at > http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10540.php > > P.S. The hard-cover -- by far the more beautiful version -- is also being > reduced prior to publication: from $80 to $50.40. > > Jerome Rothenberg "Poetry must have something in it > 1026 San Abella that is barbaric, vast, and wild." > Encinitas, CA 92024 D. Diderot > (760) 436-9923 > jrothenberg at cox.net > Blog at poemsandpoetics.blogspot.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & > sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:38:17 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Jig Arteroids 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a picture of an audio composition: http://vispo.com/jig/images/JigArteroids2.jpg . Be sure to enlarge it to 100% and scroll to the right. The picture is long and thin. Let's just hope that doesn't also describe the corresponding audio. The picture is of an audio composition I made in Jig-Sound, an interactive audio program I'm writing. You can make your own audio compositions at http://vispo.com/jig/JigAteroids2.htm or http://vispo.com/jig or http://vispo.com/jig/hills2.htm or http://vispo.com/jig/jigArteroids.htm ; you'll need the Shockwave plugin from http://vispo.com/sw if you don't already have it). In Jig-Sound, icons that are linked with blue lines play sequentially. Icons that are linked with green lines play simultaneously. There's a sort of tutorial on how to use Jig-Sound at http://vispo.com/bc/qt . Here's what the audio composition sounds like: http://vispo.com/jig/JigArteroid2.mp3 . Set it to loop at the end. The sounds are all (my) voice from a shoot-em-up online poetry game I wrote called Arteroids at http://vispo.com/ateroids . All the sounds in the above JigArteroids stuff are arteroid death-rattles, ie, the underlying sounds get played in Arteroids when you shoot an arteroid. What's that movie with Jack Nicholson as the president of the USA in which cartoonish aliens invade the world and talk funny? A humorous take on 'war of the worlds'. This audio sounds like it's from their radio dial. Mind you, it was yodelling that finally killed them, so maybe not. But, supposing for the moment that it was from their planet, we'd note that they've been around long enough to enjoy interactive music. Things like Jig-Sound are well-known on their planet whereas here on Earth you have to visit vispo.com for such stuff. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 18:05:48 -0800 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Shameless, I'm: Best New Poems Online "Dissonance of Compassion" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.bestnewpoemsonline.com/ One needs to compete among the many wonderful voices. So many poets whose work I admire. Please do take a peak at this review and piece. Smile. It's the only chance we have. Regards, Alexander Jorgensen --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Obododimma Oha wrote: From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: David To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 11:00 PM Hi Barry, I feel seriously hurt by your use of the term "*Nigerian* scams"! What makes you think that scamming is a Nigerian thing? Perhaps you need to read the history of scamming, if you have not done so. People like Al Capone and other well known crooks practised conmanship in America many decades before what came to be known as 419 in Nigeria emerged. I have a fair knowledge of the history of conmanship in America (as a criminologist!), but cannot talk of "American scam", unless I mean to insult that great country. I think we need to be careful in the way we criminalize and stereotype other societies. Or is that not part of the netiquette at POETICS? Be well! --- Obododimma Oha. On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Barry Schwabsky < b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > It looks to me like David Chirot's address book has been hacked into and > e-mails are being sent to his contacts purporting to be from him, stranded > in Africa and in desperate need of money to be immediately wired. Needless > to say, this is the latest advancement of the Nigerian scams... So if you > get that e-mail, be warned. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 02:36:02 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gloria Mindock Subject: Chapbook Release from Cervena Barva Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cervena Barva Press is pleased to announce the publication of=20 "Zero Boundaries"=20 by Irene Koronas=20 =C2=A0=20 Irene Koronas has a fine arts degree from Mass College of Art Boston. She i= s a multi media artist working with paint, collage, mono-printing, artists = books and poetry. She is currently the poetry editor for Wilderness House L= iterary Review and is the submissions editor for Ibbetson Street Press. Her= poetry has appeared in lummox journal, free verse journal, posey magazine = and on line zines such as arcanam caf=C3=A9, spearhead, index poetry, unblo= g, haiku hu t and lynx . She has seven chap-books: 'work among friends,' 'w= here words drip,' 'perception, tongue on everyday,' 'species,' 'flat house'= and 'to speak the meaning of being.' Her most recent book 'self portrait d= rawn from many' is published by ibbettson street press. Her poems also appe= ar in anthologies.=20 Order online:=20 http://www.thelostbookshelf.com/index.html#Zero Boundaries=20 Zero Boundaries=20 by Irene Koronas=20 by Irene Koronas=20 $7.00 + $3.00 S/H=20 41 pages, paper=20 Publication Date: November, 2008 =09 For information contact:=20 Gloria Mindock=20 Cervena Barva Press, Somerville, MA=20 Email: editor@cervenabarvapress.com=20 Send me______copies of " Zero Boundaries " =C2=A0Total enclosed:=C2=A0$____= ____=20 Name____________________________________________________________________=20 Street____________________________________________________________________= =20 City___________________________State________________Zip____________________= =20 e-mail_________________________________Phone_____________________________= =20 Thank you,=20 Gloria Mindock=20 Editor@cervenabarvapress.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 21:50:30 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: New esay in Jacket Magazine: 'Empirical and Non-Empirical Identifiers' Comments: To: argotist@fsmail.net In-Reply-To: <8023597.675041227879292733.JavaMail.www@wwinf3704> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed As I asked on a different list, diagnostic devices? Like stethescopes or xrays? You mean there's a way to find out whether that lump in line three is dangerous? Mark At 08:34 AM 11/28/2008, Jeffrey Side wrote: >I have an essay in Jacket Magazine called 'Empirical and >Non-Empirical Identifiers': >http://jacketmagazine.com/36/side-j-essay.shtml >This essay looks at certain effects of language that I call >Empirical Identifiers because of the ways in which they encourage >exegetical closure through their functioning as referents to >phenomena. It also looks at their opposites, which I call >Non-Empirical Identifiers because of the ways in which they invite >readers to participate in the creation of individual meaning and >significance from language that is autonomous and non-referential. >These identifiers, by enabling a ready recognition of empirical and >non-empirical writing procedures in poetry, may prove useful as >diagnostic devices for literary and stylistic criticism. The essay >examines a range of poetic works from the last century and assesses >the extent to which they exhibit a reliance on either Empirical >Identifiers or Non-Empirical Identifiers. > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:14:23 -0800 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: India...Muslims and Hindus In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Alexander is tired, especially given situation in Mumbai, of the abuse thrown at MUSLIMS. Lots of "terrorism," as they called it (THEY), is performed by HINDUS . Fact. Purely anecdotal, but I spent weeks with Sufis, spent lots of time with Muslim descendants from Persia...and always, and they knew me, and there were no tourists, treated kindly. It is a terrible when we essentialize. There is little solidarity in India. Democracy doesn't work as well as Bush likes to say it does. It is a terrible thing what happened, more terribe for the ineffectuality of the government there, all care and well wishes sent to friends, but let us not let this situation be exploited for the sake of what is an AGENDA. Alex ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 09:19:37 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Please Donate a Click... Comments: To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu, pussipo@googlegroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- Need only 108 clicks by tomorrow to make the goal of 300 for November to get the $20.000 matching grant for research plus 300 free mammograms for needy women -- thebreastcancersite.com _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 11:15:16 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Francesco Levato Subject: L'incontro--an evening of experimental and emerging voices in Italian poetry. Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit L'incontro (the encounter) is an evening of experimental and emerging voices in Italian poetry featuring work read in the original Italian and in English translation by poet/translators Joshua Adams, Chris Glomski, Francesco Levato, and special guest Tiziano Fratus, from Turin, Italy. Fratus will read from his recent book, "A Room in Jerusalem." Poets whose work will be presented include: Francesco Giuntini, Giacomo Leopardi, Eugenio Montale, Giuseppe Ungaretti, Eugenio De Signoribus, Emanuel Carnevali, Nino Gennaro, and Tiziano Fratus. L'incontro is sponsored by UniVerse of Poetry and is being recorded for broadcast by WBEZ Chicago Public Radio for Chicago Amplified. Weds., Dec. 10, 2008, 7:00pm (Doors open at 5pm, reading starts at 7pm) - FREE at Th!nkArt Salon 1530 North Paulina, Suite F Chicago, IL 60622 For more information contact Francesco Levato, info@francescolevato.com READER BIOS Joshua Adams is a graduate student at the University of Chicago and Editor of Chicago Review. His translation, with Joel Calahan, of Marcello Frixione's Ologrammi is forthcoming from Cracked Slab Books. Tiziano Fratus is the author of nine books of poetry including Il Molosso, Il Ventre, and Il Vangelo della Carne. His work has been translated and published in numerous languages and countries. His most recent book A Room in Jerusalem was released by Farfalla Press (2008, Brooklyn). He is the editor of the literary press, Torino Poesia, and director of the poetry festival by the same name. Chris Glomski is the author of Transparencies Lifted from Noon, a collection of poems published in fall of 2005 by MEB / Spuyten Duyvil Press. He is also the author of a chapbook, IL LA, published by Noemi Press in 2002. Since 2002 he has been pursuing an ongoing translation project of various contemporary Italian poets, some of which recently appeared in ACM. His poems, translations, and critical writings have appeared in Notre Dame Review, The Octopus, Chicago Review, Jacket, A Public Space, and elsewhere. Another chapbook, Eidolon, was issued by Answer Tag Home Press in October 2008. He lives in Chicago. Poet and new media artist Francesco Levato is the executive director of The Poetry Center of Chicago. He is the author of Marginal State, a collection of poetry, and his work has been published internationally in journals and anthologies, both in print and online, including The Progressive, XCP: Cross Cultural Poetics, Versal, and many others. His poetry-based video artwork has been exhibited in galleries and featured at film festivals in Berlin, Chicago, New York, and elsewhere. About UniVerse : A United Nations of Poetry UniVerse: A United Nations of Poetry is an interactive forum and celebration of international poetry encouraging universal dialogue, compassion and peace. Enjoy our archive of visionary poets and "Teach This Poem," our free, interactive teaching tool featuring engaging questions and writing exercises. For more about us and our events, visit www.universeofpoetry.org. About Th!nkArt Salon Th!nkArt is a contemporary, French-inspired art salon featuring celebrated and emerging artists from Chicago and around the world. Th!nkArt is located at 1530 North Paulina Street (one half-block south of North Avenue), Suite F, in the Wicker Park gallery district on Chicago's near northwest side. Gallery hours are Monday through Friday from 11 a.m. to 5 p.m. and Saturdays by appointment. By car: the gallery is two blocks west of the North Avenue exit of the Kennedy Expressway (street parking available). By CTA: the gallery is four blocks east of the Damen stop on the Blue Line, and one half-block south of the #72 North Avenue bus. For more information, please call 773.252.2294 or email at thinkartsalon@gmail.com. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 13:08:33 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Amanda Earl Subject: experiment-o, a new pdf magazine is live Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed AngelHousePress is pleased to announce the launch of experiment-o, an annual online pdf magazine that celebrates the art of risk. www.experimento-o.com please join me in a virtual toast to celebrate its launch. the contributors to issue one are writer, composer, performer Gary Barwin curator, art critic, writer Emily Falvey creative writer and publisher Spencer Gordon poet and collage artist Camille Martin textual artist and poet Sheila E. Murphy literary renaissance man rob mclennan poet and blogger extraordinaire Pearl Pirie stargazer and poet Roland Prevost reading organizer, editor, poet and fiction writer Jenny Sampirisi author and visual artist Steve Venright for submission guidelines and further information about experiment-o, please refer to page 43 of issue 1 for further information about AngelHousePress, please visit www.angelhousepress.com contact info: amanda@experiment-o.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 11:00:33 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: lanny quarles Subject: NOISETEXT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://groups.google.com/group/noisetext investigating an (anti)poetics of noise, the pseudo-lyric, literary phasmids (pha(nta)smids), email-art, textual messiness, mussiness, neatness, neonateness, uncreative writing, hodkoah surrealism, psychedelia, cyber-shamanic trance writing, visual stimulus, radical democritization of stimulus organization, anti-categorism, faux-philosophy, philsophy of pho, gung-pho, pho-gung, literary gargoylism, MONSTERS, monsterpo, the absurd, productive nihilism, anti-nihilistic productivism, parodism, negative capability, good bad writing-as-art, bad good painting-as-writing, good bad photography-as-foolosophy, and anything else, and nothing else, or whatever, computer writing at the edge of whatever boundary you aren't at the edge at, or are, or want to be, or can't be, or don't believe exists. an abpoetics of the briosingularity matrix-stir Neologismuslms Hirndough hoodoo jpg trading html email po Outsider Insiderism Barthesian Sadomasochism Rousselian mumbo-jumbo Burroughsian Viricirq du type Flarf for Non-flarfists (Flarfish Post-Flarf) Classic Flarf Classic Mayan Flarf Aztec Neo-Flarf Barf Neo-Barf Latinized Barf Barf of the Egyptian Roamans Dada Classicus Eco-dada Undead Dada Semiotic Primordianism Textual Jesterism Tricksterpo "Noemism" Phanerozoic Emanations Wiggy leerik Motivetted Signus Fatuus Bureaucrazy Sioux Realism SIr Eelism DooDooDada Tweedle D Medusa Dong Tweedle Whizz Dumb Strooty Weirdo Clause Nous is Noise Chaos is Cause Matter is Mata Hari Big Lady Satan Hips Writan(ears) for 'SCRATCH" + Obscure History, Facts, Knoweldge Just send me an email for an invite or I can join you direct! We have alot of fun, and all kinds of texts and images may be enjoyed there. Thanks, Lanny Quarles Anti-Moderateur solipsis@hevanet.com http://phaneron.blogspot.com/ http://jellybeanweirdo.blogspot.com/ http://ribfilaft.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:47:57 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Louis Cabri Subject: "Language Poetry" "in" "Canada" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ?Language Poetry? ?in? ?Canada? I check the listserv once a month or less; sorry. But I?ll play! I tendentially define "language poetry" "in" "Canada" as socially=20 reflexive about language as language, and in a globally implicative way,=20 which, by the word "global," means implicative in a theoretically charged=20 way. (So, e.g., excepting love: a book of remembrances [1974], bpNichol is = largely doing something else; his "letteral play" is aesthetic in a=20 traditionally "nonideological" sense of the aesthesis; so too Claude=20 Gauvreau is doing something else.) Unlike in the US, "language poetry"=20 "in" "Canada" is in a critical dialogue with a common denominator social=20 realist platform for poetry (most interestingly in Quebec feminist=20 writing), and one other difference is that "in" "Canada" this tendency is=20 far more internationalist (hence the quotation-marks). David Bromige, Steve McCaffery, Alan Davies, Nicole Brossard, Norma Cole,=20 Karen Mac Cormack, Christopher Dewdney (insofar as he appears in the=20 magazine with the equals signs in it). If anyone who was reading Zukofsky=20 counts, then some of Victor Coleman's, too. And I'd say there are glints=20 of the new sentence in Wah's "Chain" that dates from same time as=20 Bromige's "Tight Corners" (1974ish?) that Silliman totes as first=20 instance. And possibly even the hugely overlooked Philippe Haecke. Magazines (off the headtop): Line, Writing, Raddle Moon, Motel, hole.=20 (Very incomplete list -- cf. Butling and Rudy's Writing in Our Time.) After the 70s: see the Writing Class anthology edited by Barnholden and=20 Klobucar. But include, singularly and most importantly, Deanna Ferguson,=20 among quite a few others. Also see the East Of Main anthology edited by=20 Wayman that displays the contestatory dialogue with social realism.=20 After the 80s: M. Norbese Philip has found it useful to use the term to=20 articulate her situation of double-address to two differently-constituted=20 audiences (similar somwhat to Harryette Mullen?s situation). Plus many=20 others. Poets in Canada have read the poets associated in the US by way of=20 catchphrases such as Language School, Language Poets, Language Writing.=20 Not just read but=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:38:48 -0500 Reply-To: az421@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Rob McLennan Subject: [experiment-o, a new pdf magazine is live] AngelHousePress is pleased to announce the launch of experiment-o, an annual online pdf magazine that celebrates the art of risk. www.experimento-o.com please join me in a virtual toast to celebrate its launch. the contributors to issue one are writer, composer, performer Gary Barwin curator, art critic, writer Emily Falvey creative writer and publisher Spencer Gordon poet and collage artist Camille Martin textual artist and poet Sheila E. Murphy literary renaissance man rob mclennan poet and blogger extraordinaire Pearl Pirie stargazer and poet Roland Prevost reading organizer, editor, poet and fiction writer Jenny Sampirisi author and visual artist Steve Venright for submission guidelines and further information about experiment-o, please refer to page 43 of issue 1 for further information about AngelHousePress, please visit www.angelhousepress.com contact info: amanda@experiment-o.com -- writer/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project ...novel - white www.abovegroundpress.blogspot.com * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:52:53 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: A "Cultural Devolution?" --Iraqi Academics Assassinated During the US-Led Occupation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The removal of a society's hopes for building a future for themselves via e= ducation and the creation of engineers=2C doctors=2C teachers=2C urban plan= ners=2C as well as the economic dependence on outsiders with such training = which this creates is accompanied by the erasure of the cultural history of= the society via the removal of its archeological and and bibliographic evi= dences of its own past. No past--no future. People trapped in a present occupied and controlled by = others. A similar method is employed in Gaza=2C from which 600 students wi= th scholarships to study abroad are forbidden to leave=2C including the 7 a= warded Fulbright scholarships in the US. These "Cultural Revolutions" which overturn Past and Future in terms of Kno= wledge as Power=2C create an immense socio-cultural-economic dislocation=2C= in which a people begins to vanish. The disruption of education and its re= placement by a very narrow and tightly restricted and controlled "re-educat= ion" performs a "Negative" version of the "Positive" aspects of the Cultura= l Revolutions undertaken in China and far more radically in Cambodia. A similar method was applied to the American Indian populations herded into= the dead zones of reservations and "schools" where they could be "de-India= nized" culturally and re-educated as "docile and obediant" peoples now equi= pped with the most minimal tools=2C and so "useless" and "dependent" outsid= e the rezervations. As the Future was being removed before it might threat= en to "develop=2C" the Past was being uprooted=2C built on top of=2C carted= off to museums=2C flooded=2C disappeared in every way possible. These actvities made possible the "noble" Trope of the "Vanishing American = Indian=2C" who unfortunetly but necessarily had to be eradicated in order t= o make room for the settlers and settlements of colonization=2C in keeping = with the construction of the "New Jerusalm" via allegorical and literal in= terpretations of the Bible=2C and also in accordance with "Manifest Destiny= ." How much "change" is possible in these colonial-imperial-nationalistic exte= nsions in space of what is already so well known and accepted as a Destiny = through time? How much change can happen when the former "separate but equ= al" policies no longer allowed "at home" turns into the immense support for= Apartheid abroad? Is the "Cultural Amnesia" occuring "in the Homeland" a blow back of these = policies enforced elsewhere? from International Clearing House: =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 Iraqi Academics Assassinated During the US-Led Occupati= on =09 Editor's note =09 Pakistan Daily has published the list of Iraqi academics assassinated by US and allied occupation forces. The objective of these targeted assassinations is to "kill a nation"=2C the destroy Iraq's ability to educate its people=2C to undermine its research and scientific capabilities in literally all fields of endeavor=2C to transform a nation into a territory=2C and ultmately to destroy civilization. =09 Of particular significance is the assassination of prominent scientists and physicians=2C professors of medicine in the country's leading academic institutions=2C its social scientists and historians=2C its physical scientists=2C its biologists=2C its engineers.=20 =09 we are dealing with a carefully devised covert operation. The plan to kill the nation's scientists and intellectuals emanates from US intelligence and the military. It is a deliberate process. =09 Is the new Obama administration going to turn a blind e= ye to this diabolical and criminal agenda? =09 Michel Chossudovsky=2C Global Research=2C 27 November 2= 008List of Iraqi academics assassinated in Iraq during the US-led occupatio= n=20 =09 =09 Written by Pakistan Daily =20 =09 =09 Wednesday=2C 26 November 2008 17:57 =09 =09 =09 The following relation has being created against the Occupation and for the Sovereignty of Iraq with the information provided by direct Iraqi university sources and international and Arab media. It only includes names and data referred to university academics assassinated during the Occupation period.=20 BAGHDAD=2C Baghdad University =09 Abbas Al-Attar: PhD in humanities=2C lecturer at Bagh= dad University=92s College of Humanities. =09 Abdel Hussein Jabuk: PhD and lecturer at Baghdad Univ= ersity. =09 Abdel Salam Saba: PhD in sociology=2C lecturer at Bag= hdad University. =09 Abdel Razak Al-Naas: Lecturer in information and international mass media at Baghdad University=92s College of Information Sciences. He was a regular analyst for Arabic satellite TV channels. He was killed in his car at Baghdad University on 28 January 2005. His assassination led to confrontations between students and police=2C and journalists went on strike. =09 Ahmed Nassir Al-Nassiri: PhD in education sciences=2C= Baghdad University=2C assassinated February 2005. =09 Ali Abdul-Hussein Kamil: PhD in physical sciences=2C lecturer in the Department of Physics=2C Baghdad University. =09 Amir Al-Jazragi: PhD in medicine=2C lecturer at Baghdad University=92s College of Medicine=2C and consultant at the Iraqi Ministry of Health=2C assassinated 17 November 2005. =09 Basil Al-Karji: PhD in chemistry=2C lecturer at Baghd= ad University. =09 Essam Sharif Mohammed: PhD in history=2C professor in Department of History and head of the College of Humanities=2C Baghdad University. =09 Faidhi Al-Faidhi: PhD in education sciences=2C lecturer at Baghdad University and Al-Munstansiriya University. He was also member of the Muslim Scientists Committee. Assassinated in 2005. =09 Fuad Abrahim Mohammed Al-Bayaty: PhD in german philology=2C professor and head of College of Philology=2C Baghdad University. =09 Haifa Alwan Al-Hil: PhD in physics=2C lecturer at Bag= hdad University=92s College of Science for Women. =09 Heikel Mohammed Al-Musawi: PhD in medicine=2C lecturer at Al-Kindi College of Medicine=2C Baghdad University. Assassinated 17 November 2005. =09 Hassan Abd Ali Dawood Al-Rubai: PhD in stomatology=2C dean of the College of Stomatology=2C Baghdad University. Assassinated 20 December 2005. =09 Hazim Abdul Hadi: PhD in medicine=2C lecturer at the = College of Medicine=2C Baghdad University. =09 Khalel Ismail Abd Al-Dahri: PhD in physical education=2C lecturer at the College of Physical Education=2C Baghdad University. =09 Kilan Mahmoud Ramez: PhD and lecturer at Baghdad Univ= ersity. =09 Maha Abdel Kadira: PhD and lecturer at Baghdad Univer= sity=92s College of Humanities. =09 Majed Nasser Hussein Al-Maamoori: Professor of veterinary medicine at Baghdad University=92s College of Veterinary Medicine. Assassinated 17 February 2007. =09 Marwan Al-Raawi: PhD in engineering and lecturer at B= aghdad University. =09 Marwan Galeb Mudhir Al-Heti: PhD in chemical engineering and lecturer at the School of Engineering=2C Baghdad University. =09 Majed Hussein Ali: PhD in physical sciences and lectu= rer at the College of Sciences=2C Baghdad University. =09 Mehned Al-Dulaimi: PhD in mechanical engineering=2C l= ecturer at Baghdad University. =09 Mohammed Falah Al-Dulaimi: PhD in physical sciences= =2C lecturer at Baghdad University. =09 Mohammed Tuki Hussein Al-Talakani: PhD in physical sciences=2C nuclear scientist since 1984=2C and lecturer at Baghdad University. =09 Mohammed Al-Kissi: PhD and lecturer at Baghdad Univer= sity. =09 Mohammed Abd Allah Al-Raawi: PhD in surgery=2C former president of Baghdad University=2C member of the Arab Council of Medicine and of the Iraqi Council of Medicine=2C president of the Iraqi Union of Doctors. =09 Mohammed Al-Jazairi: PhD in medicine and plastic surgeon=2C College of Medicine=2C Baghdad Univeristy. Assassinated 15 November 2005. =09 Mustafa Al-Hity: PhD in medicine=2C paediatrician=2C College of Medicine=2C Baghdad University. Assassinated 14 November 2005. =09 Mustafa Al-Mashadani: PhD in religious studies=2C lec= turer in Baghdad University=92s College of Humanities. =09 Nafea Ahmmoud Jalaf: PhD in Arabic language=2C profes= sor in Baghdad University=92s College of Humanities. =09 Nawfal Ahmad: PhD=2C lecturer at Baghdad University=92s College of Fine Arts. She was assassinated at the front door of her house on 25 December 2005. =09 Nazar Abdul Amir Al-Ubaidy: PhD and lecturer at Baghd= ad University. =09 Raad Shlash: PhD in biological sciences=2C head of Department of Biology at Baghdad University=92s College of Sciences. He was killed at the front door of his house on 17 November 2005. =09 Rafi Sarcisan Vancan: Bachelor of English language=2C lecturer at Baghdad University=92s College of Women=92s Studies. =09 Saadi Daguer Morab: PhD in fine arts=2C lecturer at B= aghdad University=92s College of Fine Arts. =09 Sabri Mustafa Al-Bayaty: PhD in geography=2C lecturer= at Baghdad University=92s College of Humanities. =09 Saad Yassin Al-Ansari: PhD and lecturer at Baghdad University. He was killed in Al-Saydiya neighborhood=2C Baghdad=2C 17 November 2005. =09 Wannas Abdulah Al-Naddawi: PhD in education sciences= =2C Baghdad University. Assassinated 18 February 2005. =09 Yassim Al-Isawi: PhD in religious studies=2C Baghdad University=92s College of Arts. Assassinated 21 June 2005. =09 Zaki Jabar Laftah Al-Saedi: Bachelor of veterinary medicine=2C lecturer at Baghdad University=92s College of Veterinary Medicine. =09 Basem Al-Modarres: PhD and lecturer at Baghdad University=92s College of Philosophy. [Source: Al-Hayat=2C 28 February 2006.] =09 Jasim Mohammed Achamri: Dean of College of Philosophy=2C Baghdad University. [Source: Al-Hayat=2C 28 February 2006.] =09 Hisham Charif: Head of Department of History and lecturer at Baghdad University. [Source: Al-Hayat=2C 28 February 2006.] =09 Qais Hussam Al-Den Jumaa: Professor and Dean of College of Agriculture=2C Baghdad University. Killed 27 March 2006 by US soldiers in downtown Baghdad. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university source.] =09 Mohammed Yaakoub Al-Abidi: Baghdad University. Department and college unknown. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] =09 Abdelatif Attai: Baghdad University. Department and college unknown. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] =09 Ali Al-Maliki: Baghdad University. Department and college unknown. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] =09 Nafia Aboud: Baghdad University. Department and college unknown. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] =09 Abbas Kadem Alhachimi: Baghdad University. Department and college unknown. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] =09 Mouloud Hasan Albardar Aturki: Lecturer in Hanafi Teology at Al-Imam Al-Aadam College of Teology=2C Baghdad University. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] =09 Riadh Abbas Saleh: Lecturer at Baghdad University=92s Centre for International Studies. Killed 11 May 2006. [Source: CEOSI university source=2C 17 May 2006.] =09 Abbas Al-Amery: Professor and head of Department of Administration and Business=2C College of Administration and Economy=2C Baghdad University. Killed together with his son and one of his relatives at the main entrance to the College 16 May 2006. [Source: CEOSI university source=2C 17 May 2006.] =09 Muthana Harith Jasim: Lecturer at Baghdad University=92s College of Engineering. Killed near his home in Al-Mansur=2C 13 June 2006. [Source: CEOSI university source=2C 13 June 2006.] =09 Hani Aref Al-Dulaimy: Lecturer in the Department of Computer Engineering=2C Baghdad University=92s College of Engineering. He was killed=2C together with three of his students=2C 13 June 2006 on campus. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university source=2C 13 June 2006.] =09 Hussain Al-Sharifi: Professor of urinary surgery at Baghdad University=92s College of Medicine. Killed in May 2006. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 12 June 2006.] =09 Hadi Muhammad Abub Al-Obaidi: Lecturer in the Department of Surgery=2C Baghdad University=92s College of Medicine. Killed 19 June 2006. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university source=2C 20 June 2006.] =09 Hamza Shenian: Professor of veterinary surgery at Baghdad University=92s College of Veterinary Medicine. Killed by armed men in his garden in a Baghdad neighborhood 21 June 2006. This was the first known case of a professor executed in the victim=92s home. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 21 June 2006.] =09 Jassim Mohama Al-Eesaui: Professor at College of Political Sciences=2C Baghdad University=2C and editor of Al-Syada newspaper. He was 61 years old when killed in Al-Shuala=2C 22 June 2006. [Source: UNAMI report 1 May-30 June 2006.] =09 Shukir Mahmoud As-Salam: Lecturer at Baghdad University=92s College of Medicine and dental surgeon at Al-Yamuk Hospital=2C Baghdad. Killed near his home by armed men 6 September 2006. [Source: TV news=2C As-Sharquia channel=2C 7 September 2006=2C and CEOSI Iraqi sources.] =09 Mahdi Nuseif Jasim: Professor in the Department of Petroleum Engineering at Baghdad University. Killed 13 September 2006 near the university. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university source.] =09 Adil Al-Mansuri: Maxillofacial surgeon and professor at the College of Medicine=2C Baghdad University. Kidnapped by uniformed men near Iban Al-Nafis Hospital in Baghdad. He was found dead with torture signs and mutilation in Sadr City. He was killed during a wave of assassinations in which seven medical specialists were assassinated. Date unknown: July or August 2006 [Source: Iraqi health service sources=2C 24 September 2006.] =09 Shukur Arsalan: Maxillofacial surgeon and professor at the College of Medicine=2C Baghdad University. Killed by armed men when leaving his clinic in Harziya neighbourhood. He was killed during a wave of assassinations in which seven specialists were assassinated. Date unknown: July or August 2006. [Source: Iraqi Health System sources=2C 24 September 2006.] =09 Issam Al-Rawi: Professor of geology at Baghdad University=2C president of the Association of University Professors of Iraq. Killed 30 October 2006 during an attack carried out by a group of armed men in which two more professors were seriously injured. [Sources: CEOSI sources and Associated Press.] =09 Yaqdan Sadun Al-Dhalmi: Professor and lecturer in the College of Education=2C Baghdad University. Killed 16 October 2006. [Source: CEOSI sources.] =09 Jlid Ibrahim Mousa: Professor and lecturer at Baghdad University=92s College of Medicine. Killed by a group of armed men in September 2006. During August and September 2006=2C six professors of medicine were assassinated in Baghdad. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi sources.] =09 Mohammed Jassim Al-Thahbi and wife: Professor and dean of the College of Administration and Economy=2C Baghdad University. Killed 2 November 2006 by a group of armed men when he was driving to university. His wife=2C a lecturer at the same university (name and academic position unknown) and son were also killed in the attack. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi sources and Tme Magazine=2C 2 October 2006.] =09 Mohammed Mehdi Saleh: Lecturer at Baghdad University (unknown position) and member of the Association of Muslim Scholars. Imam of Ahl Al-Sufa Mosque in Al-Shurta Al-Jamisa neighbourhood. Killed 14 November 2006 while driving in the neighbourhood of Al-Amal in central Baghdad. [Source: UMA=2C 14 November 2006.] =09 Hedaib Majhol: Lecturer at College of Physical Education=2C Baghdad University=2C president of the Football University Club and member of the Iraqi Football Asociation. Kidnapped in Baghdad. His body was found three later in Baghdad morgue 3 December 2006. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 2 December 2006.] =09 Al-Hareth Abdul Hamid: Professor of psychiatric medicine and head of the Department of Psychology at Baghdad University. Former president of the Society of Parapsychological Investigations of Iraq. A renowned scientist=2C Abdul Hamid was shot dead in the neighbourhood of Al-Mansur=2C Baghdad=2C 6 December 2006 by unknown men. [Sources: CEOSI Iraqi sources=2C 6 December 2006=2C and Reuters=2C 30 January 2007.] =09 Anwar Abdul Hussain: Lecturer at the College of Odontology=2C Baghdad University. Killed in Haifa Street in Baghdad in the third week of January 2007. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 23 January 2007.] =09 Majed Nasser Hussain: PhD and lecturer at the College of Veterinary Medicine=2C Baghdad University. He was killed in front of his wife and daughter while leaving home in the third week of January 2007. Nasser Hussain had been kidnapped two years before and freed after paying a ransom. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 23 January 2007.] =09 Khaled Al-Hassan: Professor and deputy dean of the College of Political Sciences=2C Baghdad University. Killed in March 2007. [Source: Association of University Lecturers of Iraq=2C 7 April 2007.] =09 Ali Mohammed Hamza: Professor of Islamic Studies at Baghdad University. Department and college unknown. Killed 17 April 2007. [Sources: TV channels As-Sharquia and Al-Jazeera.] =09 Abdulwahab Majed: Lecturer at Baghdad University=92s College of Education. Department and college unknown. Killed 2 May 2007. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 5 May 2007.] =09 Sabah Al-Taei: Deputy dean of the College of Education=2C Baghdad University. Killed 7 May 2007. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources. 8 May 2007.] =09 Nihad Mohammed Al-Rawi: Professor of Civil Engineering and deputy president of Baghdad University. Shot dead 26 June 2007 in Al-Jadria Bridge=2C a few meters away from the university campus=2C when exiting with his daughter Rana=2C whom he protected from the shots with his body. [Sources: BRussells Tribunal and CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 26-27 June 2007=2C www.wmin.ac.uk] =09 Muhammad Kasem Al-Jebouri: Lecturer at the College of Agriculture=2C Baghdad University. Killed=2C together with his son and his brother-in-law=2C by paramilitary forces 22 June 2007. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 27 June 2007.] =09 Samir (surname unknown): Lecturer at Baghdad University=92s College of Administration and Economy. His body was found shot one day after being kidnapped in Kut where he was visiting family. Professor Samir lived in the Baghdad district of Al-Sidiya. [Source: Voices of Iraq=2C www.iraqslogger.com=2C 29 June 2007.] =09 Amin Abdul Aziz Sarhan: Lecturer at Baghdad University. Department and college unknown. He was kidnapped from his home in Basra by unidentified armed men 13 October 2007 and found dead on the morning of 15 October. [Source: Voices of Iraq=2C 15 October 2007.] =09 Mohammed Kadhem Al-Atabi: Head of Baghdad University=92s Department of Planning and Evaluation. He was kidnapped 18 October 2007 from his home in Baghdad by a group of armed men and found dead a few hours later in the area of Ur=2C near to Sadr City=2C which is under the control of Moqtada Al-Sadr=92s Mahdi Army. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 26 October 2007.] =09 Munther Murhej Radhi: Dean of the College of Odontology=2C Baghdad University. He was found dead in his car 23 January 2008. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 24 January 2008.] =09 Mundir Marhach: Dean of Faculty of Stomatology=2C Baghdad University. He was killed in March (exact day unknown)=2C according to information provided by the Centre for Human Rights of Baghdad. [Source: Al-Basrah reported 12 March 2008.] =09 =20 =09 Al-Mamoon Faculty (private college=2C Baghdad) Mohammed Al-Miyahi: Dean of Al-Maamoun Faculty in Baghdad. He was shot with a silencer-equipped gun in front of his house in Al-Qadisiah district=2C southern Baghdad=2C as he stepped out of his car 14 December 2007. [Source CEOSI Iraqi source and Kuwait News Agency=2C reported 19 December 2007=2C IPS reported 19 December 2007=2C and Al-Basrah=2C reported 12 March 2008.] =09 =20 =09 Al-Mustansiriya University (Baghdad) =09 Aalim Abdul Hameed: PhD in preventive medicine=2C specialist in depleted uranium effects in Basra=2C dean of the College of Medicine=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. =09 Abdul Latif Al-Mayah: PhD in economics=2C lecturer and head of Department of Research=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. =09 Aki Thakir Alaany: PhD and lecturer at the College of= Literature=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. =09 Falah Al-Dulaimi: PhD=2C professor and deputy dean of= Al-Mustansiriya University=92s College of Sciences. =09 Falah Ali Hussein: PhD in physics=2C lecturer and deputy dean of the College of Sciences=2C Al-Mustansiriya University=2C killed May 2005. =09 Musa Saloum Addas: PhD=2C lecturer and deputy dean of the College of Educational Sciences=2C Al-Mustansiriya University=2C killed 27 May 2005. =09 Husam Al-Ddin Ahmad Mahmmoud: PhD in education sciences=2C lecturer and dean at College of Education Sciences=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. =09 Jasim Abdul Kareem: PhD and lecturer at the College o= f the Education=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. =09 Abdul As Satar Sabar Al Khazraji: PhD in history=2C Al Munstansiriya University=2C killed 19 June 2005. [A same name and surname lecturer in Engineering at the College of Computer Science Technology=2C Al-Nahrein University was assessinated in March 2006.] =09 Samir Yield Gerges: PhD and lecturer at the College of Administration and Economy at Al-Mustansiriya University=2C killed 28 August 2005. =09 Jasim Al-Fahaidawi: PhD and lecturer in Arabic literature at the College of Humanities=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. Assassinated at the university entrance. [Source: BBC News=2C 15 November 2005.] =09 Kadim Talal Hussein: Deputy dean of the College of Ed= ucation=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. =09 Mohammed Nayeb Al-Qissi: PhD in geography=2C lecturer= at Department of Research=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. =09 Sabah Mahmoud Al-Rubaie: PhD in geography=2C lecturer and dean at College of Educational Sciences=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. =09 Ali Hasan Muhawish: Dean and lecturer at the College of Engineering=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. Killed 12 March 2006. [Source: Middle East Online=2C 13 March 2006.] =09 Imad Naser Alfuadi: Lecturer at the College of Political Sciences=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] =09 Mohammed Ali Jawad Achami: President of the College of Law=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] =09 Husam Karyakus Tomas: Lecturer at the College of Medicine=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] =09 Basem Habib Salman: Lecturer at the College of Medicine at Al-Mustansiriya University. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] =09 Mohammed Abdul Rahman Al-Ani: PhD in engineering=2C lecturer at the College of Law=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. Kidnapped=2C together with his friend Akrem Mehdi=2C 26 April 2006=2C at his home in Palestine Street= =2C Baghdad. Their bodys were found two days later. (CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 5 May 2006.] =09 Jasim Fiadh Al-Shammari: Lecturer in psychology at the College of Arts=2C Al-Mustansiriya Baghdad University. Killed near campus 23 May 2006. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university source=2C 30 May 2006.] =09 Saad Mehdi Shalash: PhD in history and lecturer in history at the College of Arts=2C Al-Mustansiriya University=2C and editor of the newspaper Raya Al-Arab. Shot dead at his home with his wife 26 October 2006. [Source: Al-Quds Al-Arabi=2C 27 October 2006.] =09 Kemal Nassir: Professor of history and lecturer at Al-Mustansiriya and Bufa universities. Killed at his home in Baghdad in October 2006. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 2 November 2006.] =09 Hasseb Aref Al-Obaidi: Professor in the College of Political Sciences at Al-Mustansiriya University. Since he was kidnapped 22 October 2006 his whereabouts is unknown. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources.] =09 Najeb Al-Salihi: Lecturer in the College of Psychology at Al-Mustansiriya University and head of the Scientific Commitee of the Ministry of Higher Education of Iraq. Al-Salihi=2C 39 years old=2C was kidnapped close to campus and his body=2C shot dead=2C was found 20 days after his disappearance in Baghdad morgue. His family was able recover his body only after paying a significant amount of money. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources.] =09 Dhia Al-Deen Mahdi Hussein: Professor of international criminal law at the College of Law=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. Missing since kidnapped from his home in the Baghdad neighborhood of Dhia in 4 November 2006 by a group of armed men driving police cars. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 5 November 2006.] =09 Muntather Al-Hamdani: Deputy dean of the College of Law=2C Al-Mustansiriya University. He was assassinated=2C together with Ali Hassam=2C lecturer at the same college=2C 20 December 2006. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 24 December 2006. The Iraqi police identified Ali Arnoosi as the deputy dean assassinated 21 December=2C and Mohammed Hamdani as another victim. It is unknown whether [Muntanther Al-Hamdani and Mohammed Hamdani] both are the same case or not.] =09 Ali Hassam: Lecturer at the College of Law at Al-Mustansiriya University. He was killed together with Muntather Al-Hamdani=2C deputy dean of the college=2C 20 December 2006. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 24 December 2006. The Iraqi police identified Ali Arnoosi as the deputy dean assassinated 21 December=2C and Mohammed Al-Hamdani as another victim. It is unknown whether both [Muntanther Al-Hamdani and Mohammed Hamdani] are the same case or not.] =09 Dhia Al-Mguter: Professor of economy at the College of Administration and Economy of Al-Mustansiriya University. He was killed 23 January 2007 in Baghdad while driving. He was a prominent economist and president of the Consumer=92s Defense Association and the Iraqi Association of Economists. A commentator at for As-Sharquia television=2C he participated in the Maram Committee=2C being responsible for investigating irregularities occuring during the elections held in January 2006. Al-Mguter was part of a family with a long anti-colonialist tradition since the British occupation. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources and Az-Zaman newspaper=2C 24 January 2007.] =09 Ridha Abdul Hussein Al-Kuraishi: Deputy Dean of the University of Al-Mustansiriya=92s College of Administration and Economy. He was kidnapped 28 March 2007 and found dead the next day. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers=2C 7 April 2007. See the Arabic letter sent to CEOSI.]. =09 =20 =09 University of Technology (Baghdad) Muhannad Al-Dulaimi: PhD in mechanical engineering=2C= lecturer at the Baghdad University of Technology. Muhey Hussein: PhD in aerodynamics=2C lecturer in the Department of Mechanical Engineering of the Baghdad University of Technology. Qahtan Kadhim Hatim: Bachelor of sciences=2C lecturer in the College of Engineering of the Baghdad University of Technology. Sahira Mohammed Machhadani: Baghdad University of Technology. Department and college unknown. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers=2C March 2006.] Ahmed Ali Husein: Lecturer at the Baghdad University of Technology=2C specialist in applied mechanics. He was killed by a group of armed men in downtown Baghdad 22 May 2006. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 24 May 2006.] Name unknown: Lecturer at Baghdad University of Technology. Killed 27 June 2006 by a group of armed men. They were driving a vehicle in the Baghdad neighborhood of Al-Mansur and shot him without stopping. Next day=2C students and professors staged demonstrations in all universities across the country opposing the assassination and kidnapping of professors and lecturers. [Source: Al-Jazeera and Jordan Times=2C 27 June 2006.] Ali Kadhim Ali: Professor at Baghdad University of Technology. Shot dead in November 2006 in the district of Al-Yarmuk by a group of armed men. His wife=2C Dr Baida Obeid =97 gynecologist =97 was also killed in the attack. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi sources=2C 16 November 2006.] Moa=92ayed Jasim Al-Janabi: Lecturer in physics at Baghdad University of Technology. Killed 23 May 2006. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C December 2006.] Jalil Enjad Al-Jumaily: Lecturer at University of Technology. Department and college unknown. He was killed 22 December 2006 with his son=2C a physician=2C after being kidnapped. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 24 December 2006..] Abdul Same=92e Al-Janabi: Deputy president of the Baghdad University of Technology. Missing after being kidnapped during the third week of January 2007. In 2004=2C Abdul Sami Al-Janabi was dean of Al-Mustansiriya University=92s College of Sciences in Baghdad. He resigned from this position after Shia paramilitary forces threatened to kill him. Such forces began then to occupy university centres in the capital. Transferred by the Ministry of Higher Education to a new position to preserve his security=2C Sami Al-Janabi has almost certainly been assassinated. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 23 January 2007.] Ameer Mekki Al-Zihairi: Lecturer at Baghdad University of Technology. He was killed in March 2007. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers=2C 7 April 2007. =09 =20 =09 Al-Nahrein University (Baghdad.] =09 Akil Abdel Jabar Al-Bahadili: Professor and deputy dean of Al-Nahrein University=92s College of Medicine. Head of Adhamiya Hospital in Baghdad. He was a specialist in internal medicine=2C killed 2 December 2005. Mohammed Al-Jazairy: Lecturer at University College Al-Kadhemiya Hospital=2C Al-Nahrein University. He was a specialist in plastic surgery. Layth Abdel Aziz: PhD and lecturer at the College of Sciences=2C Al-Nahrein University. [Source: Al-Hayat=2C 28 February 2006.] Abdul As Satar Sabar Al-Khazrayi: Lecturer in engineering at the College of Computer Science Technology=2C Al-Nahrein University. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] [A same name and surname PhD in History at Al Munstansiriya University was killed on 19 June 2005.] =09 Uday Al-Beiruti: Professor at Al-Nahrein University. Kidnapped in University College Al-Kadhemiya Hospital=92s parking lot by armed men dressed in Interior Ministry uniforms. His body was found with sigs of torture in Sadr City. Date unknown: July/August 2006. His murder took place during a wave of assassinations in which seven of his colleagues were killed. [Source: Iraqi health service sources=2C 24 September 2006.] Jalil Al-Jumaili: Professor at the College of Medicine=2C Al-Nahrein University. He was found shot dead in December 2006 (exact date unknown) after being kidnapped at University College Al-Kadhemiya Hospital=2C together with his son=2C Dr Anas Al-Jumaili=2C lecturer at the same college. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 24 December 2006.] Anas Al-Jumaili: Lecturer at the College of Medicine=2C Al-Nahrein University. He was found shot dead in December (exact date unknown) with his father=2C Dr Jalil Al-Jumaili=2C professor of medicine=2C after being kidnapped at University College Al-Kadhemiya Hospital. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 24 December 2006.] Adnan Mohammed Saleh Al-Aabid: Lecturer at the College of Law=2C Al-Nahrein University. He was found dead 31 January 2007 after having been kidnapped from his home 28 January 2007 together with lecturers Abdul Mutaleb Abdulrazak Al-Hashimi and Aamer Kasem Al-Kaisy=2C and a student. All were found dead in Baghdad morgue. [Sources: CEOSI Iraqi university sources and Al-Quds Al-Arabi=2C 1 February 2007.] Abdul Mutaleb Abdulrazak Al-Hashimi: Lecturer at the College of Law=2C Al-Nahrein University. He was found dead 31 January 2007 after having been kidnapped 28 January 2007 on his way home=2C together with lecturers Adnan Mohammed Saleh Al-Aabid and Aamer Kasem Al-Kaisy=2C and a student. All were found dead in Baghdad morgue. [Sources: CEOSI Iraqi university sources and Al-Quds Al-Arabi=2C 1 February 2007.] Aamer Kasem Al-Kaisy: Lecturer at the College of Law=2C Al-Nahrein University. He was found dead 31 January 2007 after having been kidnapped on his way home 28 January 2007=2C together with a student and lecturers Abdul Mutaleb Abdulrazak Al-Hashimi and Adnan Mohammed Saleh Al-Aabid. All were found dead in Baghdad morgue. [Sources: CEOSI Iraqi university sources and Al-Quds Al-Arabi=2C 1 February 2007.] Khaled Al-Naieb: Lecturer in microbiology and deputy dean of Al-Nahrein University=92s College of Higher Studies in Medicine. Killed 30 March 2007 at the main entrance to the college. Having been threatened by the Mahdi Army=2C Moqtada Al-Sadr=92s militia=2C Dr Al-Naieb had moved to work = in Irbil. During a brief visit to his family in Baghdad=2C and after recently becoming a father=2C he was killed at the main entrance to the college on his way to collect some documents. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 4 April 2007. Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report dated 7 April 2007.] Sami Sitrak: Professor of English and dean of Al-Nahrein University=92s College of Law. Professor Sitrak was killed 29 March 2007. He had been appointed dean of the College after the former dean=92s resignation following an attempt to kill him along with three other College lecturers. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers=2C 7 April 2007.]. Thair Ahmed Jebr: Lecturer in the Department of Physics=2C College of Sciences=2C Al-Nahrein University. Jebr was killed in the attack against satellite TV channel Al-Baghdadiya 5 April 2007. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers=2C 7 April 2007.]. =09 Iyad Hamza: PhD in chemistry=2C Baghdad University. He was the academic assistant of the President of Al-Nahrein University. On 4 May 2008 he was killed near his home in Baghdad. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi source. 6 May 2008.]. =09 =20 =09 Islamic University (Baghdad) =09 Haizem Al-Azawi: Lecturer at Baghdad Islamic University. Department and college unknown. He was 35 years old and married and was killed 13 February 2006 by armed men when he ariving home in the neighborhood of Habibiya. [Source: Asia Times=2C 3 March 2006.] =09 Saadi Ahmad Zidaan Al-Fahdawi: PhD in Islamic science=2C lecturer at the College of Islamic Science=2C Baghdad University. Killed 26 March 2006. =09 Abdel Aziz Al-Jazem: Lecturer in Islamic theology at the College of Islamic Science=2C Baghdad University. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] =09 Saad Jasim Mohammed: Lecturer at the Baghdad Islamic University. Department and college unknown. Killed=2C together with his brother Mohammed Jassim Mohammed=2C 11 May 2007 in the neighburghood of Al-Mansur. The armed men who commited the crime where identified by the Association of Muslims Scholars as members of a death squad. [Sources: Press note of the Association of Muslims Scholars=2C 12 May 2007=2C and CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 13 May 2007.] =09 Qais Sabah Al-Jabouri: Professor at the Baghdad Islamic University. Killed 7 June 2007 by a group of armed men who shot him from a car when he was leaving the university with the lecturers Alaa Jalel Essa and Saad Jalifa Al-Ani=2C who were killed and seriously injured respectively. press note of the Association of Muslims Scholars=2C 7 June 2007=2C and CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 9 June 2007.] =09 Alaa Jalel Essa: Professor at the Baghdad Islamic University. Killed 7 June 2007 by a group of armed men who shot him from a car when he was leaving the university with the lecturers Qais Sabah Al-Jabouri and Saad Jalifa Al-Ani=2C who were killed and seriously injured respectively. press note of the Association of Muslims Scholars=2C 7 June 2007=2C and CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 9 June 2007.] =09 =20 =09 Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education (Baghdad) =09 =20 =09 Lecturers killed after a mass kidnapping=2C 13 Novemb= er 2006[4]: =09 Abdul Salam Suaidan Al-Mashhadani: Lecturer in political sciences and head of the scholarships section of the Ministry of Higher Education. He was kidnapped 13 November 2006 in an assault on the ministry. His body was found with signs of torture and mutilation 24 November 2006. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 26 November 2006.] Abdul Hamid Al-Hadizi: Professor (speciality unknown). He was kidnapped 13 November 2006 in an assault on the ministry. His body was found with signs of torture and mutilation 24 November 2006. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 26 November 2006.] =09 =20 =09 =20 =09 Baghdad Institutes Izi Al-Deen Al-Rawi: President of the Arabic University=92s Institute of Petroleum=2C Industry and Minerals. Al-Rawi was kidnapped and found dead 20 November 2006. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 20 November 2006) =09 =20 =09 =20 =09 BABYLON Hilla University =09 Jaled M Al-Janabi: PhD in Islamic history=2C lecturer= in Hilla University=92s School of Humanities. Mohsin Suleiman Al-Ajeely: PhD in agronomy=2C lecturer in the College of Agronomy=2C Hilla University. Killed 24 December 2005. Fleih Al-Gharbawi: Lecturer in the College of Medicine. Killed in Hilla (capital of the province of Babylon=2C 100 kilometers south of Baghdad) 20 November 2006 by armed men. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi sources=2C 20 November 2006.] Ali Al-Grari (or Garar): Professor at Hilla University. He was shot dead 20 November 2006 by armed men in a vehicle on the freeway between Hilla and Baghdad. [Source: Iraqi police sources cited by Reuters=2C 20 November 2006=2C=20 =09 =20 =09 AT-TAMIM Kirkuk University =09 Ahmed Izaldin Yahya: Lecturer in the College of Engineering=2C Kirkuk University. Killed by a car bomb in the vicinity of his home in Kirkuk=2C 16 February 2007. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 17 February 2007.] Hussein Qader Omar: professor and Dean of Kirkuk University=92s College of Education Sciences. Killed in November 20=2C 2006 by shots made from a vehicle in the city center. An accompanying colleague was injured. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C November 21=2C 2006=2C and Iraqi Police Sources cited by Reuters=2C 20 November 2006.]. Sabri Abdul Jabar Mohammed: Lecturer at the College of Education Sciences at Kirkuk University. Found dead 1 November 2007 in a street in Kirkuk one day after being kidnapped by a group of unidentified armed men [Source: Iraqi university sources to the BRussells Tribunal and CEOSI=2C 2 November 2007.] =09 Abdel Sattar Tahir Sharif: Lecturer at Kirkuk University. Department and college unknown. 75-years-old=2C he was assassinated 5 March 2008 by armed men in the district of Shoraw=2C 10 kilometres northeast of Kirkuk. [Source: Aswat Al-Iraq/ Voices of Iraq=2C 5 March 2008.] =09 =20 =09 =20 =09 NINEVEH Mosul University =09 Abdel Yabar Al-Naimi: Dean of Mosul University=92s Co= llege of Humanities. Abdul Yabar Mustafa: PhD in political sciences=2C dea= n of Mosul University=92s College of Political Sciences. Abdul Aziz El-Atrachi: PhD in plant protection in the= College of Agronomy and Forestry=2C Mosul University. Eman Abd-Almonaom Yunis: PhD in translation=2C lectur= er in the College of Humanities=2C Mosul University. Jaled Faisal Hamid Al-Shijo: PhD and lecturer in the = College of Physical Education=2C Mosul University. Leila Abdu Allah Al-Saad: PhD in law=2C dean of Mosul= University=92s College of Law. Mahfud Al-Kazzaz: PhD and lecturer at University Mosul. Department and college unknown. Killed 20 November 2004. Mohammed Yunis Thanun: Bachelor of sciences=2C lecturer in the College of Physical Education=2C Mosul University. Munir Al-Jiero: PhD in law and lecturer in the College of Law=2C Mosul University. Married to Dr Leila Abdu Allah Al-Saad=2C also assassinated. Noel Butrus S. Mathew: PhD=2C professor at the Health= Institute of Mosul University. Ahmad Hamid Al-Tai: Professor and head of Department of Medicine=2C Mosul University. Killed 20 November 2006 when armed men intercepted his vehicle as he was heading home. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 20 November 2006.] Kamel Abdul Hussein: Lecturer and deputy dean of the College of Law=2C Mosul University. Killed 11 January 2007. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 23 January 2007.] Talal Younis: Professor and dean of the College of Political Sciences. Killed on the morning of 16 April 2007 at the main entrance to the college. Within less than half an hour Professor Jaafer Hassan Sadeq of the Department of History at Mosul University was assassinated at his home. [Sources: CEOSI Iraqi university sources and Al-Mousl.] Jaafer Hassan Sadeq: Professor in the Department of History of Mosul University=92s College of Arts. Killed 16 April 2007 at home in the district of Al-Kafaaat=2C northwest of Mosul. Within less that half an hour=2C Professor Talal Younis=2C dean of Mosul University=92s College of Political Sciences=2C was killed at the main entrance to the college. [Sources: CEOSI Iraqi university sources and Al-Mousl.] Ismail Taleb Ahmed: Lecturer in the College of Education=2C Mosul University. Killed 2 May 2007 while on his way to college. [Source: Al-Mosul=2C 2 May 2007.] Nidal Al-Asadi: Professor in the Computer Sciences Department of Mosul University=92s College of Sciences. Shot dead by armed men in the district of Al-Muhandiseen=2C according to police sources in Mosul. [Sources: INA=2C 2 May 2007=2C and Iraqi sources to the BRussells Tribunal= =2C 3 May 2007.] Aziz Suleiman: Lecturer at Mosul University. Department of Mosul University=92s College of Sociology. Killed in Mosul 22 January 2008. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 24 January 2008.]. =09 Jalil Ibrahim Ahmed al-Naimi: Director of the =91Sharia=92 Department (Islamic Law)=2C Mosul University. He was shot dead by armed men when he came back home (in Mosul) from University=2C 30 January 2008. [Sources: CEOSI and BRussells Tribunal University Iraqi sources=2C al-Quds al-Arabi=2C 31 de enero de 2008.]. =09 =20 =09 =20 =09 QADISIYA Diwaniya University =09 Hakim Malik Al-Zayadi: PhD in Arabic philology=2C lecturer in Arabic literature at Al-Qadisyia University. Dr Al-Zayadi was born in Diwaniya=2C and was killed in Latifiya when he was traveling from Baghdad 24 July 2005.] Mayed Husein: Physician and lecturer at the College of Medicine=2C Diwaniya University. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] =09 =20 =09 =20 =09 BASRA Basra University =09 Abdel Al-Munim Abdel Mayad: Bachelor and lecturer at = Basra University. Abdel Gani Assaadun: Bachelor and lecturer at Basra U= niversity. Abdul Alah Al-Fadhil: PhD=2C professor and deputy dea= n of Basra University=92s College of Medicine. Abdul-Hussein Nasir Jalaf: PhD in agronomy=2C lecturer at the College of Agronomy=92s Center of Research on Date Palm Trees=2C Basra University. Alaa Daoud: PhD in sciences=2C professor and chairman of Basra University (also reported as a lecturer in history). Killed 20 July 2005. Ali Galib Abd Ali: Bachelor of sciences=2C assistant professor at the School of Engineering=2C Basra University. Asaad Salem Shrieda: PhD in engineering=2C professor = and dean of Basra University=92s School of Engineering. Faysal Al-Assadi: PhD in agronomy=2C professor at the= College of Agronomy=2C Basra University. Gassab Jabber Attar: Bachelor of sciences=2C lecturer= at the School of Engineering=2C Basra University. Haidar Al-Baaj: PhD in surgery=2C head of the Univers= ity College Basra Hospital. Haidar Taher: PhD and professor at the College of Med= icine=2C Basra University. Hussein Yasin: PhD in physics=2C lecturer in sciences at Basra University Killed 18 February 2004 at his home and in front of his family. Khaled Shrieda: PhD in engineering=2C dean of the Sch= ool of Engineering=2C Basra University. Khamhour Al-Zargani: PhD in history=2C head of the Department of History at the College of Education=2C Basra University Killed 19 August 2005. Kadim Mashut Awad: visiting professor at the Department of Soils=2C College of Agriculture=2C Basra University. Killed December 2005 (exact date unknown.]. Karem Hassani: PhD and lecturer at the College of Med= icine=2C Basra University. Kefaia Husein Saleh: PhD in English philology=2C lecturer in the College of Education Sciences=2C Basra University. Mohammed Al-Hakim: PhD in pharmacy=2C professor and d= ean of Basra University=92s College of Pharmacy. Mohammed Yassem Badr: PhD=2C professor and chairman o= f Basra University. Omar Fakhri: PhD and lecturer in biology at the Colle= ge of Sciences=2C Basra University. Saad Alrubaiee: PhD and lecturer in biology at the Co= llege of Sciences=2C Basra University. Yaddab Al-Hajjam: PhD in education sciences and lecturer at the College of Education Sciences=2C Basra University. Zanubia Abdel Husein: PhD in veterinary medicine=2C lecturer at the College of Veterinary Medicine=2C Basra University. Jalil Ibrahim Almachari: Lecturer at Basra University. Department and college unknown. Killed 20 March 2006 after criticizing in a public lecture the situation in Iraq. (Arabic Source: Al-Kader.] Abdullah Hamed Al-Fadel: PhD in medicine=2C lecturer in surgery and deputy dean of the College of Medicine at Basra University. Killed in January 2006 (exact date unknown). [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources.] Fuad Al-Dajan: PhD in medicine=2C lecturer in gynecology at the College of Medicine=2C Basra University. Killed at the beginning of March 2006 (exact date unknown). [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources.] Saad Al-Shahin: PhD in medicine=2C lecturer in internal medicine at Basra University=92s College of Medicine. Killed at the beginning of March 2006 (exact date unknow). [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources.] Jamhoor Karem Khammas: Lecturer at the College of Arts=2C Basra University. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] Karem Mohsen: PhD and lecturer at Department of Agriculture=2C College of Agronomy=2C Basra University. Killed 10 April 2006. He worked in the field of honeybee production. Lecturers and students called for a demonstration to protest for his assassination. [Source: Al-Basrah=2C 11 April 2006.] Waled Kamel: Lecturer at the College of Arts at Basra University. Killed 8 May 2006. Other two lecturers were injured during the attack=2C one of them seriously. [Source: Al-Quds Al-Arabi=2C 9 May 2006.] Ahmad Abdul Kader Abdullah: Lecturer in the College of Sciences=2C Basra University. His body was found 9 June 2006. [Source: CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C 10 June 2006.] Kasem Yusuf Yakub: Head of Department of Mechanical Engineering=2C Basra University. Killed 13 June 2006 at the university gate. [Sources: CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C 14 June 2006 and Al-Quds Al-Arabi=2C 16 June 2006.] Ahmad Abdul Wadir Abdullah: Professor of the College of Chemistry=2C Basra University. Killed 10 June 2006. [Source: UNAMI report=2C 1 May-30 June 2006.] Kathum Mashhout: Lecturer in edaphology at the College of Agriculture=2C Basra University. Killed in Basra in December 2006 (exact date unknown). [Source: CEOSI Iraqi university sources=2C 12 December 2006.] Mohammed Aziz Alwan: Lecturer in artistic design at the College of Fine Arts=2C Basra University. Killed by armed men 26 May 2007 while walking in the city. [Source: CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C 1 June 2007.] Firas Abdul Zahra: Lecturer at the College of Physical Education=2C Basra University. Killed at home by armed men 18 July 2007. His wife was injured in the attack. [Source: Iraqi university sources to the BRussells Tribunal=2C 26 August 2007.] Muayad Ahmad Jalaf: Lecturer at the College of Arts=2C Basra University. Kidnapped 10 September 2007 by a group of armed men that was driving three cars=2C one of them with a government license plate. He was found dead in a city suburb the next day. [Source: Iraqi university sources to the BRussells Tribunal=2C 12 September 2007.] =09 Khaled Naser Al-Miyahi: PhD in medicine=2C Professor of neurosurgery at Basra University. He was assassinated in March 2008 (exact date unknown). His body was found after his being kidnapped by a group of armed men in the streets of Basra. There were no ransom demands=2C according to information provided by Baghdad=92s Center for Human Rights. [Source: Al-Basrah=2C 12 March 2008.] =09 =20 =09 Technical Institute of Basra =09 Mohammed Kasem: PhD in engineering=2C lecturer at the= Technical Institute of Basra. Sabah Hachim Yaber: Lecturer at the Technical Institu= te of Basra. Salah Abdelaziz Hashim: PhD and lecturer in fine arts at the Technical Institute of Basra. Kidnapped in 4 April 2006. He was found shot dead the next day. According to other sources=2C Dr Hashim was machine-gunned from a vehicle=2C injuring also a number of students. [Sources: CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C 6 April 2006=2C Az-Zaman=2C 6 April 2006=2C and Al-Quds Al-Arabi=2C 7 April 2006.] =09 =20 =09 =20 =09 TIKRIT Tikrit University =09 Basem Al-Mudares: PhD in chemical sciences and lecturer in the College of Sciences=2C Tikrit University. His body was found mutilated in the city of Samarra 21 July 2004. Fathal Mosa Hussine: PhD and professor at the College= of Physical Education=2C Tikrit University. Mahmud Ibrahim Hussein: PhD in biological sciences and lecturer at the College of Education Sciences=2C Tikrit University. Madloul Albazi Tikrit University. Department and college unknown. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] Mojbil Achaij Issa Al-Jabouri: Lecturer in international law at the College of Law=2C Tikrit University. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] Damin Husein Al-Abidi: Lecturer in international law at College of Law=2C Tikrit University. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] Harit Abdel Yabar As Samrai: PhD student at the College of Engineering=2C Tikrit University. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] Farhan Mahmud: Lecturer at the College of Theology=2C Tikrit University. Disappeared after being kidnapped 24 November 2006. [Source: CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C 26 November 2006.] Mustafa Khudhr Qasim: Professor at Tikrit University. Department and college unknown. His body was found beheaded in Al-Mulawatha=2C eastern Mosul=2C 21 November 2007. [Sources: Al-Mosul=2C 22 November 2007=2C and Iraqi university sources to the BRussells Tribunal and CEOSI=2C 22-25 November 2007.] =09 Taha AbdulRazak Al-Ani: PhD in Islamic Studies=2C he was professor at Tikrit University. His body was found shot dead in a car on a highway near Al-Adel=2C a Baghdad suburb. Also=2C the body of Sheikh Mahmoud Talb Latif Al-Jumaily=2C member of the Commision of Muslim Scientists=2C was found dead in the same car last Thursday afternoon=2C 15 May 2008. [Source: CEOSI Iraqi sources=2C 21 May 2008.] =09 =20 =09 =20 =09 DIYALA Baquba University =09 Taleb Ibrahim Al-Daher: PhD in physical sciences=2C professor and dean at the College of Sciences=2C Baquba University. Killed 21 December 2004. Lez Mecchan: Professor at Baquba University. Department and college unknown. Killed 19 April 2006 with his wife and another colleague. [Sources: DPC and EFE=2C 19 April 2006.] Mis (surname unknown): Lecturer at Baquba University. Department and college unknown. Wife of Professor Lez Mecchan=2C also assassinated. Both were killed with another colleague 19 April 2006. [Sources: DPC and EFE=2C 19 April 2006.] Salam Ali Husein: Taught at Baquba University. Department and college unknown. Killed 19 April 2006 with two other colleagues. [Sources: DPC and EFE=2C 19 April 2006.] Meshhin Hardan Madhlom Al-Dulaimi: Professor at Baquba University. Department and college unknown. Killed at the end of April=2C according to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education. [Source: CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C 10 May 2006.] Abdul Salam Ali Al-Mehdawi: Professor at Baquba University. Department and college unknown. Killed at the end of April=2C according to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education. [Source: CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C 10 May 2006.] Mais Ganem Mahmoud: Lecturer at Baquba University. Department and college unknown. Killed at the end of April=2C according to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education. [Source: CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C 10 May 2006.] Satar Jabar Akool: Lecturer at Baquba University. Department and college unknown. Killed at the end of April=2C according to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education. [Source: CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C 10 May 2006.] Mohammed Abdual Redah Al-Tamemmi: Lecturer in the Department of Arabic Language and head of the College of Education=2C Baquba University. Killed 19 August 2006 together with Professor Kreem Slman Al-Hamed Al-Sadey=2C 70 years old=2C of the same Department. A third lecturer from the same department escaped the attack carried out by a group of four armed men Students and lecturers demonstrated against his and other lecturers=92 deaths. [Source: World Socialist=2C 12 September 2006=2C citin= g the Iraqi newspaper Az-Zaman=2C CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C 25 December 2006.] Karem Al-Saadi: Lecturer at Baquba University. Department and college unknown. Killed August 2006. Students and lecturers demonstrated against his and other lecturers=92 deaths. [Source: World Socialist=2C 12 September 2006=2C citing the Iraqi newspaper Az-Zaman.] Kreem Slman Al-Hamed Al-Sadey: Professor in the Department of Arabic Language at the College of Education=2C Baquba University. He was 70 years old when killed 19 August 2006. In the attack Mohammed Abdual Redah Al-Tamemmi=2C head of Education Department was also killed. A third lecturer from the same department escaped the attack of a group of four armed men. [Source: CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C 25 December 2006.] Hasan Ahmad: Lecturer in the College of Education=2C Baquba University. Killed 8 December 2006. [Source: CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C December 2006.] Ahmed Mehawish Hasan: Lecturer in the Department of Arabic at the College of Education=2C Baquba University. Killed in December (exact date unknown). [Source: CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C 25 December 2006.] Walhan Hamid Fares Al-Rubai: Dean of the College of Physical Education=2C Baquba University. Al-Rubai was shot by a group of armed men in his office 1 February 2007. According to some sources his son was also killed. [Source: Reuters and Islamomeno=2C 1-3 February 2007 respectively=2C and CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C 2 February 2007.] Abdul Ghabur Al-Qasi: Lecturer in history at Baquba University. His body was found by the police 10 April 2007 in Diyala River=2C which crosses the city=2C with 31 other bodies of kidnapped people. [Source: Az-zaman=2C 11 April 2007.] Jamal Mustafa: Professor and head of the History Department=2C College of Education Sciences=2C Baquba University. Kidnapped at home in the city of Baquba 29 October 2007 by a group of armed men driving in three vehicles. [Source: Iraqi university sources to the BRussells Tribunal=2C 30 October 2007.] =09 =20 =09 =20 =09 Al-ANBAR Ramadi University =09 Abdel Karem Mejlef Saleh: PhD in philology=2C lecturer at the College of Education Sciences=2C Al-Anbar University. Abdel Majed Hamed Al-Karboli: Lecturer at Ramadi Univ= ersity. Killed December 2005 (exact date unknown.]. Ahmad Abdel Hadi Al-Rawi: PhD in biology=2C professor= in the School of Agronomy=2C Al-Anbar University. Ahmad Abdul Alrahman Hameid Al-Jhbissy: PhD in Medicine=2C Professor of College of Medicine=2C Al-Anbar University. Ahmed Saadi Zaidan: PhD in education sciences=2C Ramadi University. Killed February 2005 (exact date unknown.]. Hamed Faisal Antar: Lecturer in the College of Law=2C Ramadi University. Killed December 2005 (exact date unknown.]. Naser Abdel Karem Mejlef Al-Dulaimi: Department of Physics=2C College of Education=2C Ramadi University. Killed December 2005 (exact date unknown.]. Raad Ojssin Al-Binow: PhD in surgery=2C lecturer at t= he College of Medicine=2C Al-Anbar University. Shakir Mahmmoud Jasim: PhD in agronomy=2C lecturer in= the School of Agronomy=2C Al-Anbar University. Nabil Hujazi: Lecturer at the College of Medicine=2C Ramadi University. Killed in June 2006 (exact date unknown). [Source: CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C 20 June 2006=2C confirmed by Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education.] Nasar Al-Fahdawi: Lecturer at Ramadi University. Department and college unknown. Killed 16 January 2006. [Source: CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C December 2006.] Khalid Jubair Al-Dulaimi: Lecturer at the College of Engineering=2C Ramadi University. Killed 27 April 2007. [Source: Iraqi sources to the BRussells Tribunal=2C 3 May 2007.] =09 =20 =09 =20 =09 NAJAF Kufa University =09 Jawla Mohammed Taqi Zwain: PhD in medicine=2C lecture= r at College of Medicine=2C Kufa University. Shahlaa Al-Nasrawi: Lecturer in the College of Law=2C Kufa University. Assassinated 22 August 2007 by members of a sectarian militia. [Source: CEOSI university Iraqi sources=2C 27 August 2007.] Adel Abdul Hadi: Professor of philosophy=2C Kufa University=92s College of Arts. Killed by a group of armed men 28 October 2007 when returning home from university. [Source: Iraqi university sources to the BRussells Tribunal=2C 30 October 2007.] =09 =20 =09 KARBALA University of Karbala =09 =20 =09 Kasem Mohammed Ad Dayni: Lecturer in the Department of Psychology=2C College of Pedagogy=2C Karbala University. Killed 17 April 2006. =20 =20 =09 MOSUL Mosul University =09 Omar Miran: Baghdad University bachelor of law (1946)=2C PhD in history from Paris University (1952)=2C professor of history at Mosul University=2C specialist in history of the Middle East. Killed=2C along with his wife and three of his sons=2C by armed men in February 2006 (exact date unknown.]. Noel Petros Shammas Matti: Lecturer at the College of Medicine=2C Mosul University. Married and father of two daughters. He was kidnapped and found dead 4 August 2006. Muwafek Yahya Hamdun: Deputy dean and professor at the College of Agronomy=2C Mosul University. [Source: Al-Hayat=2C 28 February 2006.] Naif Sultan Saleh: Lecturer at the Technical Institute=2C Mosul University. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] Natek Sabri Hasan: Lecturer in the Department of Agricultural Mechanization and head of the College of Agronomy=2C Mosul University. [Source: Iraqi Association of University Lecturers report=2C March 2006.] Abdul Kader Ali Abdullah: Lecturer in the Department of Arabic=2C College of Education Sciences=2C Mosul University. Found dead 25/26 August 2007 after being kidnapped five days before by a group of armed men. [Source: Iraqi sources to the BRussells Tribunal and CEOSI 26-27 August 2007.] Unknown: Lecturer at Mosul University=2C killed in the explosion of two car bombs near campus=2C 1 October 2007. In this atack six other people were injured=2C among them four students. [Source: KUNA=2C 1 October 2007.] =09 =20 =09 OPEN UNIVERSITY Kareem Ahmed Al-Timmi: Head of the Department of Arabic Language in the College of Education at the Open University. Killed in Baghdad=2C 22 February 2007. =09 =20 =09 COMMISSION OF TECHNICAL EDUCATION [5] =09 Aamir Ibrahim Hamza: Bachelor in electronic engineeri= ng=2C lecturer at the Technical Institute. Mohammed Abd Al-Hussein Wahed: PhD in tourism=2C lect= urer at the Institute of Administration. Mohammed Saleh Mahdi: Bachelor in sciences=2C lecture= r at the Cancer Research Centre. Killed November 2005. =09 =20 =09 INSTITUTIONAL POSITIONS =09 Emad Sarsam: PhD in surgery and member of the Arab Co= uncil of Medicine. Faiz Ghani Aziz: PhD in agronomy=2C director general of the Iraqi Company of Vegetable Oil. Killed September 2003. Isam Said Abd Al-Halim: Geologic consultant at the Mi= nistry of Construction. Kamal Al-Jarrah: Degree in English philology=2C researcher and writer and director general at the Ministry of Education. Raad Abdul-Latif Al-Saadi: PhD in Arabic language=2C consultant in higher education and scientific research at the Ministry of Education. Shakier Al-Jafayi: PhD in administration=2C head of the Department of Normalization and Quality at the Iraq Council. Wajeeh Mahjub: PhD in physical education=2C director general of physical education at the Ministry of Education. Wissam Al-Hashimi: PhD in petrogeology=2C president of the Arab Union of Geologists=2C expert in Iraqi reservoirs=2C he worked for the Iraqi Ministry of Petroleum. =09 =20 =09 UNIVERSITY AFFILIATION UNKNOWN =09 Amir Mizhir Al-Dayni: Professor of telecommunication = engineering. Khaled Ibrahim Said: PhD in physics. Mohammed Al-Adramli: PhD in chemical sciences. Mohammed Munim Al-Izmerly: PhD in chemical sciences. He was tortured and killed by US troops. His body was sent to the Baghdad morgue. The cause of death was initially registered as =93brainstem compression=94. Nafi Aboud: Professor of Arabic literature. =09 =20 =09 OTHER CASES =09 Khalel Al-Zahawi: Born in 1946=2C Al-Zahawi was considered the most important calligraphist in Iraq and among the most important in the Arab-Muslim world. He worked as a lecturer in calligraphy in several Arab countries during the 1990s. He was killed 19 May 2007 in Baghdad by a group of armed men. He was buried in Diyala=2C where he was born. [Source: BBC News=2C 22 May 2007. His biography is available on wikipedia.]. =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 Click on "comments" below to read or post comments=20 =20 =20 =20 Comments (50) Comment (0) =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Comment Guidelines =20 Be succinct=2C constructive and=20 relevant to the story. =20 We encourage engaging=2C diverse=20 and meaningful commentary. Do not include=20 personal information such as names=2C addresses=2C=20 phone numbers and emails. Comments falling=20 outside our guidelines =96 those including=20 personal attacks and profanity =96 are not=20 permitted. See our complete=20 Comment Policy=20 and=20 use this link to notify us if you have concerns=20 about a comment.=20 We=92ll promptly review and remove any=20 inappropriate postings. =20 Send Page To a Friend =20 =09 In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107=2C this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. Information Clearing House has no affiliation whatsoever with the originator of this article nor is Information ClearingHouse endorsed or sponsored by the originator.) =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 Please=20 help Support Information Clearing House =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =20 =20 =20 HOME COPYRIGHT NOTICE=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Video =20 Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. Sign up t= oday. _________________________________________________________________ Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_acce= ss_112008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 17:34:53 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Fw: Fwd: gala invite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Arts For Art, Inc. cordially invites you to a Gala Fundraiser to create the Innovative Arts Center A Place for Innovation in Music, Arts and Thinking. Monday, December 15, 2008 Dinner & Open Bar, 7:30pm - 11:00pm Attire: Festive The Angel Orensanz Foundation 172 Norfolk Street New York, NY, 10002 Speakers:Margaret Richardson, Obama Transition Team Marc Lambert, Puffin Foundation Patricia Nicholson-Parker, Arts For Art, Inc. Performances by:Yerba Buena William Parker's Inside Songs Of Curtis Mayfield Citizen Cope Burnt Sugar & Surprise Guests Host Committee: Willie MackSalman Rushdie Serge BeckerTenzin Wild Simon HammersteinBen Pundole Josh LucasArt For Art Board Members Lupe RamosHappy Massee Tables start at $2000. Individual tickets start at $250. Special Performances: 9:30pm - 11pm Please RSVP Todd at: info@artsforart.org Tickets available through BROWN PAPER TICKETS 1-800-838-3006 http://www.brownpapertickets.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 17:12:45 -0800 Reply-To: amishius@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Amish Trivedi Subject: On Behalf of Lisa Jarnot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A Spring Poetry Workshop in Sunnyside, Queens. 10 Weeks, $300. Sundays from 3-6 pm beginning January 18th. Pattern Poetry: a study of "concrete" "conceptual" "visual" "knitted" "sculpted" etc. poetry with an emphasis on the making of such works. =A0Limit nine students. Syllabus available at www.angelfire.com/poetry/lisajarnot/patternpoetry.html Another Spring Poetry Workshop in Sunnyside, Queens. 10 weeks, $300. Monday evenings from 6-9 pm beginning January 19th.=A0Avant-Film and Avant-Poetry: A Tribute to Stan Brakhage: in this class we'll look at poets influenced by filmmakers and filmmakers influenced by poets. The class will be run in the style of Stan Brakhage's Salons=97 with films shown in the first half of class and conversation, film-generated writing, and workshopping held afterwards. We'll look at poems and films by Brakhage, Gertrude Stein, Robert Duncan, Charles Olson, Jack Spicer, Lawrence Jordan, Kenneth Anger, Joseph Cornell, Rudy Burkhardt, Edwin Denby, Abigal Child, Henry Hills, Jennifer Reeves, Hannah Weiner, and others. Filmmakers welcome! =A0Limit nine students. Syllabus available at www.angelfire.com/poetry/lisajarnot/film.html Contact Lisa Jarnot at ljarnot@gmail.com for more information. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 01:28:43 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Nicholas Karavatos Subject: Re: India...Muslims and Hindus In-Reply-To: <753898.59794.qm@web56803.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 "It *is* terrible when we essentialize." =20 I've been living on a few coasts of the Arabian Peninsula for several years= where there is a significant South Asian expatriate population. I've never= been in such an "essentialist" or "essentializing" environment anywhere el= se. =20 Most all politics here are Identity Politics. =20 The hierarchy is that Muslims are on top=2C next it is Arabs (Khaleejis fee= l they're the more blessed) above all other Muslims (though South Asians va= stly outnumber Arabs)=2C then there are the tribal hierarchies among Arabs = ... And we are all familiar with the caste system of India=2C so no need go= into that. =20 Palestinians seem to be everyone's pet sacred cow. =20 In India there is the Hindu Nationalist movement=2C no different than any R= eligion+Nationalism movement=2C basically supreamist. Hindu Nationalists se= e themselves as True Indians (like religious right Republicans and their Re= al America crap) and that all other religions in India are the result of in= vasion and colonialism. =20 Yes=2C there are Indians who use their religious identity as an impetus=2C = rationale=2C justification for acts of violence: "Hindu Terrorism" as Alex = alluded. But that is also the outline of "Islamic Terrorism" in India or el= sewhere=2C as well: as I would define it=2C when a structure/organization (= not islolated individuals) uses their religious identity as an impetus/rati= onale/justification for their nationalistic violence. This is also how I wo= uld define "Judaic Terrorism" or "Christian Terrorism." =20 Alex says that "democracy doesn't work" in these environments=2C and that's= because democracy needs secularism to be successful. Otherwise=2C people v= ote according to their religion=2C religious sect=2C tribe=2C etc.=2C ident= ity. However=2C within these (mono?)cultures there is the al-Shura ("consul= tation") tradition. =20 I am still waiting for a Zoroastrian to be elected president in the Islamic= Republic of Iran. If it's a democracy=2C why not? =20 As I watched the Mumbai attacks unfold on television=2C the Indian governme= nt claimed "foriegn elements" were behind it. Yes=2C always blame The Other= first. =20 Then there is this unfolding in Nigeria: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/= africa/2008/11/20081129175135493970.html =20 Nicholas Karavatos Dept of English American University of Sharjah PO Box 26666 Sharjah United Arab Emirates > Date: Sat=2C 29 Nov 2008 07:14:23 -0800 > From: storagebag001@YAHOO.COM > Subject: India...Muslims and Hindus > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >=20 > Alexander is tired=2C especially given > situation in Mumbai=2C of the abuse thrown at MUSLIMS. Lots of > "terrorism=2C" as they called it (THEY)=2C is performed by HINDUS . Fact. >=20 > Purely anecdotal=2C but I spent weeks with Sufis=2C spent lots of time wi= th Muslim descendants from Persia...and always=2C and they knew me=2C and t= here were no tourists=2C treated kindly. >=20 > It is a terrible when we essentialize. There is little solidarity in Indi= a. Democracy doesn't work as well as Bush likes to say it does.=20 >=20 > It is a terrible thing what happened=2C more terribe for the ineffectuali= ty of the government there=2C all care and well wishes sent to friends=2C b= ut let us not let this situation be exploited for the sake of what is an AG= ENDA. >=20 > Alex >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 _________________________________________________________________ Get more done=2C have more fun=2C and stay more connected with Windows Mobi= le=AE.=20 http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642556/direct/01/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 17:55:35 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: New esay in Jacket Magazine: 'Empirical and Non-Empirical Identifiers' In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081128214959.074872d8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think of more the poem as an engine similie, where the gizmo hooked up to a car tells one what is wrong but -- my cursory scan of the article mostly confised me, formatting wise, and I didn't see any striking new "tools" for reading On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 6:50 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > As I asked on a different list, diagnostic devices? Like stethescopes or > xrays? You mean there's a way to find out whether that lump in line three is > dangerous? > > Mark > > > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:16:49 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Dylan Kinnett Subject: Re: "A Documentary Saga of the Oulipo" Comments: To: Jim Andrews Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" The Oulipo is interesting for its creation of new forms. As a cookbook is= useful=20 to a cook, Oulipan forms and constraints are useful to the writer. Is the= re,=20 anywhere, a "complete cookbook"? Does the Oulipo Compendium give an=20 overview of the forms and constraints? I was able to find one list, and it looks comprehensive, but it is in Fre= nch, and=20 I cannot read it. http://www.oulipo.net/contraintes Another list, from the "book of forms" looks good. http://www.spinelessbooks.com/table/forms/index.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:39:47 -0800 Reply-To: lmrussell04@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Lauren Russell Subject: Re: Request for information Comments: To: shardav@VERIZON.NET In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sharon, Though they don't fulfill the "non-Western" requirement, I really love some= of the poems in Gregory Orr's Orpheus & Eurydice series, to the extent tha= t I sometimes find myself reading them on long walks in cemeteries. Are you teaching experimental fiction this semester, by any chance? Lauren Date:=A0 =A0 Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:39:01 -0500 From:=A0 =A0 Sharon Mesmer/David Borchart Subject: Request for information Dear friends, This summer at the New School I'll be teaching a literature/poetry =3D20 course called "The Muse Singing: Myth in Poetry from Classical Times =3D20 to Now."=A0 I would deeply appreciate suggestions regarding non-Western =3D= 20=3D poetic responses to the Greek myths, from any era, any country.=A0 I'll =3D= 20=3D post the course description below and the texts I'm already using.=A0 =3D20 Many thanks in advance! THE MUSE SINGING: MYTH IN POETRY FROM CLASSICAL TIMES TO NOW Sharon Mesmer, Instructor / Humanities Division The artful, emotive tellings of timeless myth-stories by poets of the =3D20= =3D classical world continue to enthrall us today.=A0 What is it about =3D20 these mysterious and beautiful tales that has so captured the poetic =3D20 imagination for so long?=A0 How, to paraphrase Walter Pater, have poets =3D= 20=3D =3D93become the depositaries of the instinctive products of the =3D20 imagination, fixing its outlines and developing its situations=3D94?=A0 To = =3D20=3D gain a new appreciation of four of the most central and familiar =3D20 Greek myths (Demeter and Persephone; Cupid and Psyche; Daedalus and =3D20 Icarus; Orpheus and Eurydice) we=3D92ll first examine their oldest known = =3D20=3D literary sources (The Homeric Hymn to Demeter; Apuleius; Ovid) and =3D20 read short interpretations by well-known scholars such as Edith =3D20 Hamilton, Walter Pater, Jane Harrison, Guy Davenport and Joseph =3D20 Campbell.=A0 Finally, we=3D92ll do close readings of modern and =3D20 contemporary poetic retellings of each tale and discuss connections/ =3D20 disconnections with the original sources.=A0 Access to the films =3D93La = =3D20 Belle et Le B=3DEAte/Beauty and the Beast=3D94 (as a modern interpretation = =3D of =3D20 the Cupid and Psyche story) by Jean Cocteau and =3D93Orfeu Negro/Black =3D2= 0 Orpheus=3D94 by Marcel Camus will also be provided through Blackboard. TEXTS: MYTHOLOGY: TIMELESS TALES OF GODS AND HEROES Edith Hamilton METAMORPHOSIS Ovid, translation by David Raeburn THE HOMERIC HYMN TO DEMETER Helen Foley, editor CUPID AND PSYCHE Apuleius, translation by E.J. Kenney ORPHEUS AND COMPANY Deborah de Nicola, editor GODS AND MORTALS Nina Kossman, editor =3D46rom Google Books: GREEK STUDIES Walter Pater (short excerpt) PROLEGOMENA TO THE STUDY OF GREEK RELIGION Jane Harrison (short excerpt) =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 08:41:27 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Dave Church MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it's with great sadness i annouce the following Hey Steve, It's been a while, but I am writing on behalf of the Dave Church, who died on Thanksgiving morning (officially pronounced dead at 1:30 A.M.). He was found in his cab, slumped over, having suffered what appears to have been a heart attack (still waiting to hear from the coroner). One can only hope it was fast, for I'm quite sure he thought a great deal about death, and the only part of it that frightened, or moved, him was "how it would go down" - the direct confrontation with death. At any rate, one might think of the Dylan song - "Let me die in my footsteps..." - and think he went the right way, but he was not fond of taxicab driving, even if he drew material for his writing from his experiences in the seedy netherworld that many drivers get to see from behind their wheel. Instead, he wanted to be remembered as a poet, for that indeed was what he was. Not sure where to go from here. I'm sending this to you because of the obvious history between you and him, and because of the wider community of poets to which you have access. I have control over his drafts, writings, correspondence, publications, etc., so anyone with an interest in what will happen to this material can contact me at this email address for the time being. In the meantime, a biography of Dave Church can be found at: http://www.poetrymagazines.org.uk/magazine/record.asp?id=16312 I'll be busy with the wake and funeral this week in RI, but I'll get in touch with you when I'm back in New York soon after. Thanks, Jonathan Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. Sign up today. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:58:59 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cunningham Subject: language v. experimental MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In my recent query re Canadian language poets to which there were many responses, most of them civil (and my thanks to all those who took the trouble to reply to that thread - even to G.B. (and know Rob that's not you), there was one that was of considerable interest. That was the one that spoke of language poets and experimental poets. Is there a difference? If so, what is it? And where does Erin Moure sit in that binary? John Herbert Cunningham ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:34:49 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve Halle Subject: Michael Theune @ Seven Corners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline New work by *Michael Theune* is online now at *Seven Corners*( http://www.sevencornerspoetry.blogspot.com/). Please take a minute to stop by and check it out. Best, Steve Halle Editor ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:24:40 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: William James Austin Subject: Blackbox open for submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello everyone, The fall Blackbox gallery is now open for submissions.? The submission period will last approximately two weeks.? Please be certain to read and follow the submission guidelines on the Blackbox page.? Per usual, go to WilliamJamesAustin.com and follow the Blackbox link.? Correspondence regarding Blackbox, like submissions, must be sent to Blackboxwja@aol.com. Thank you in advance for your continued support of my little project. Best, William James Austin ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html